/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

>>53877918
>Classic World of Darkness is a far superior setting compared to that of Chronicles. Just try to prove me wrong.

But I like Promethean.

>>53877918
That's like saying shit is a better food than nothing. You'll stave off starvation longer eating shit, sure. But it's still shit.

>>53878041
Pretty sure eating shit just makes you die faster.

>>53877918
Why would i? Your right.

>>53878117
>Pretty sure eating shit just makes you die faster.

I think you'll die slower if you consume gothic 90's shit instead of personal horror, virtue signalling 21st Century organic, free range crap defecated from an oppressed, gender nonconforming, disabled minority lesbian.

>>53878179
I hope to fuck they don't fill Changeling 2e with that garbage, but knowing the audience it's 100% guaranteed.

Why can't we have nice things?

>>53878247
>Garou's biggest problem is they keep making the same mistakes over and over again.
>The shapeshifters biggest problem is that they can't change.

This will never stop being funny.

>>53878201
>I hope to fuck they don't fill Changeling 2e with that garbage,

It's WW, so we know that there'll be leftist slant. That's expected and generally ok, so long as the actual politics doesn't take up too much space, is actually relevant to the material, doesn't needless attack those who have different beliefs, and the overall quality of the book is otherwise excellent.

It's the difference between DaveB or Rose and MattMc or DavidH.

>>53878275
>This will never stop being funny.

Indeed, but do the writers get the joke?

I think someone like Stew Wilson, who did a good job developing projects like Forsaken 2e, realizes the irony and contradictions. People like Brucato definitely lack any ability to engage in self-reflection.

>>53878275
>Garou's biggest problem is they keep making the same mistakes over and over again.
>The shapeshifters biggest problem is that they can't change.

I believe that to many, killing the various Fera would be considered an act of mercy considering how badly most were written.

>>53878392

*cough* Black Furies *cough* *cough*

WoD vs CofD is a matter of preference.

World of Darkness has the advantage of being extremely written out. The game has lots of culture to work from on everything from the Clans, to the Tribes, to the Traditions, to even the Kiths and Houses. For both better and worse though Classic World of Darkness is a product of its time, and while sometimes it can be fun to goth it up and blast 90s kid music while you rage against the machine, it also had its fair share of needless edge. As well, being a very written out setting, there was a lot of metaplots which were hit and miss, specifically Gehenna. Gehenna was an interesting idea, but by focusing so much on the fact that players could have been in the end times you pressured GMs into either having to explain why they aren't the end times, as well as making them ignore lots of helpful material that is only available if it is the end times.

cont

>>53878541
Chronicles of Darkness, however, takes a more hands off approach and tries to patch up problems that Old World had and people complained about. There is very little metaplot flavoring the world and no major, mandatory plot pieces other than that which gives the GM tools to run the world. Each city becomes its own blank slate for a GM to fill in and flavor any way they like. Even the established factions can be interpreted in many lights: The Circle of the Crone can be anything from Militant worshipers of the Virgin Mary to Spiritual Hands Off Pagans celebrating traditional gender roles, with the only mandatory thing about them is that they are blood mages and occultists. Every faction in Chronicles has something like this, from the Mysterium to The Blood Talons. It gives you freedom to make your own setting the way you want it, while still giving you enough to work from. The problem arises though when you scrutinize further than the surface: Lots of GMs simply will not have enough time to fluff out Everything, and there simply is not as much material as World of Darkness has. Unless a GM is very good at improvising, the world won't seem as "alive".

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>>53878561
>>53878541
The greatest explanation I've ever heard on the difference between the two settings is that its easier to ignore bad material then write good material.

Its much easier to just ignore half the supplements and bad ideas in the World of Darkness then it is to supply tons of new ideas in the Chronicles of Darkness.

Especially when much of the new materials feel very generic compared to the interesting, if often pulpy and stupid, oWoD. Awakening got rid of the fantastic Ascension for some weird platonist Atlantis Spirit Science shit that really didn't refine itself until things like Imperial Mysteries and 2e came along and started minimizing ATLANTIS in favor of fleshing out magic and metaphysics a bit more, as a concept.

>>53878275
Calling off the Impergium was a huge mistake
>>53878707

>>53878494
I don't get Furies.
They are obviously dominatrixes but the author won't cop to it.
It really kind irritates me.

SJWs and PC tards can't write for shit

I'm sorry

>>53878750
then they have all these spiral dancers pretending to be s&m freaks. its total bull, spiral dancer's are serial killers, not kinksters.

I know, I know
>crossovers
But how would you balance a game with Hunters, vampires, and werewolves? Beef up Hunters? Tone down the biters and doggos? Try and have their areas of expertise different?
I trust my GM on most things, but this screams unbalanced cluster fuck to me, and as the human, I am afraid it's going to be the "Poor little white boy" of tabletops.

>>53878796
What about mages?

I think the problem today is that peoples are terrified of identifying with leftist ideals because they don't want to be labeled as a sellout. Ever since the right co-opted the counter culture movement people have seen left thinking ideologies as a poison pill.

>>53878796

ay white man get up against da tree

>>53878796
If hunters were any good at what they do, there wouldn't be any supernaturals, now would there? Hunters were a joke.

>>53878768
Real controversial opinion there, friendo

>>53878641

>mentioning Spirit Science in a bad way

Someone's clearly a Martian.

>>53878861
We don't need more than one human splat.

Mages are enough.

>>53878882
Sometimes the truth hurts

There are always exceptions however

You'd need at least a platoon of ordinary humans to take out a garou pack with any hope of success. 5-6 garou would rip a full squad of hunters to shreds.

Besides, garou really don't kill indiscriminately, almost everything they do has a indirect benefit to humanity.

Its only the loners and black spirals who pose a problem.

>>53878796
Honestly? Model the supernaturals using Dread Powers, and if you want, give the Hunters some Skill Tricks and Conviction from the Mirrors supplement.

>>53878886
>We don't need more than one human splat.
>Mages are enough

Think of mages a Human+. It's kind of insulting to refer to them along with the unwashed rabble.

Seriously, none of this would have been a problem if the garou had never called of the Impergium. If they had continued to keep humans numbers in check, people would still be living in relative harmony.

The modern era has brought nothing but misery to the WoD

>>53878912
>garou really don't kill indiscriminately,

Except when they're angry, which is a helluva lot.

>>53878912

EVERYTHING IS DA WYRM HERP DERP

>>53878796

Use OHunter

>>53878938
>The modern era has brought nothing but misery to the WoD

The Technocratic Union is their only hope/.

think about the kind of people who benefit from modern society. Moral relatavists, the weak and sickly, people, who, in a just society, would have either been made strong or fallen by the wayside.

It may be somewhat taboo, but I think a lot of garou are actually looking forward to an apocolypse, and many are afraid there won't BE an apocolypse, which could be a lot, lot worse in the long run.

>>53878957
Garou see the world through shit covered sunglasses. Unfortunately, the brand name on those sunglasses is "truth"

>>53878968
their fucking weaver madness is what caused that shit in the first place. Endlessly driven to consume when they already had everything they could ever want or need.

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I'm still proud af of this post

>>53878985
At this point Apocalypse Fever is the only thing holding the Garou Nation together

>>53879023
Think about it.

Do you "need" a cellphone? All it does it make you weaker, more dependent on technology.

Does your cell phone make you happy? Does your job, or your shitty 2 bedroom apartment? Is it worth living in a state of existential agony?

>>53879047
What's the alternative? Living outside? There are bugs there!

>>53879037
When the end comes, you really think its going to be the garou who suffer? The garou thrive on conflict. Its ordinary humans who suffer.

You think your nations are going to exist in perpetuity?

Every generation thinks, "Surely not I. Surely not this generation."

You think people saw the great depression coming? Do you think they foresaw the holocaust?

The writing was always on the wall, yet everytime, people are 'astonished' when it happens on their watch.

>>53878641
I'm not sure I agree with that statement. While yes, you can and easily SHOULD ignore the worst material of the World of Darkness, World of Darkness is still a setting with tons of baggage.

Chronicles on the other hand is a setting that deliberately tries to have as little baggage as it can while still following the theme of fantastic urban mystery

Also, yeah, we don't talk about Awakening 1e's hardon for Atlantis. The best things that happened for Awakening was Imperial Mysteries which got away from Atlantis, and Tome of Mysteries which explained creative thaumaturgy

Also, I'm just gonna say this: Mechanically, Chronicles is the better game.

>>53879098
and that is why ordinary humans die to a stiff breeze. They have been enfeebled by technology.

You ever wonder why mages are stuck in a perpetual cycle of misery? It is because they are constantly trying to reshape the world into their image. They refuse to content themselves with the gifts they have been given, to adapt to their environment.

No change will ever satisfy them. No power is so great that it will allow them to experience inner peace, it is an endless cycle of ambition and misery that will never cease.

It is not the garou who never learn.

So throughout all editions of Ascension the Order of Hermes has been repeatedly declared apex when compared to the others.

1. Having refined magic further than any other and defining it for the rest by a massive margin
2. Most organized of the Traditions with numbers exceeding even that of the Akashics
3. The Order boasts the greatest number of Chantries, Masters, and Archmages
4. Most extensive knowledge boasting the greatest arcane libraries in the world
5. Created more codified magical theories than any other group within the Council
6. Responsible for the first codification of magickal study, the formulation of the Spheres, and, indeed, the formation of the Traditions themselves

Is this western bias? Not a fan.

>>53879190
Have you ever seen "The Gods Must Be Crazy"?

>>53877918
>Comparing the setting
Every single world of darkness setting ever has been dogshit. The rules are the only semi passable thing about it.

>>53879223
Bull.
Choristers are more powerful, more numerous, and more organized by a wide margin.

>>53879252
Not in canon they aren't!

Though the Hermetics are waning. Maybe in the future, yeah?

>>53879223
>Is this western bias?
No. Because historically speaking Europe has dominated scientific thought by a shit ton.

If wizards exist, you can damn well be assured that westerners would be the greatest.

>Not a fan.
Deal with it.

>>53879261
Well, even you have to admit they have more temporal influence.

>>53879223
>I have written a thesis describing the basis for all magick!
>May I see it?
>No

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>>53879102
No, I expect them to die.

We've had lots and lots of practice at unfucking ourselves. We rebuilt from a goddamn world war in only a decade. Made friends and mended fences. Crime rates continue to dwindle. No one wants to go first, and the interdependant nature of international relations around the fucking globe has changed the way things work.

The werewolves and fera are still butthurt over things that are no longer in living memory except for a few craggy-ass antediluveans and archmasters. I said it once and i'll say it again, Werewolves are incapable of real change.

>>53879190
Magick is the ultimate adaptation, dofucker.

>>53879252
>>53879282
Actually, everyone who's not a Singing Christer treats them like poison because they still cling to the delusion of Unity while being the single most fractious group in the council.

>>53879308

Gee, I wonder what the Spheres are?

>>53879223
Hermetics are a bunch of bullshitters if you ask me. I don't even understand how their paradigm is supposed to function in the modern world.

They also have numerous ties the technocracy.

we really need world of darkness spurdos

>>53879318
lol, you have trouble running a 10 minute mile and think you are going to survive the zombie apocolypse. Good luck with that buddy, better work on your cardio.

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>>53879223
>>53879252
>>53879261
>>53879282
Its because Hermetic Magic IS magic, to most normal people. The western esoteric tradition is, IRL, the concept that most normies identify with the idea of magic. Scrying globes, chalk circles, magic words, wands, wizards, are the concept of magic for the entire western world. Awakening loved the Hermetics so much they basically turned all Mages into pseudo-Hermetics, making their Platonist/Gnostic/Alchemic system THE system of magic for the setting.

The Order of Hermes is predominant because their paradigm is synonymous with magic to much of the world. Most people don't think of ray-guns or even prayers when they think of magic, they think of Faust or Merlin [piss off Verbena he's ours] or King Solomon, or pseudo-Hermetics like Gandalf [piss off Chorus he's ours] or Harry Potter.

Plus it befits their pride that they'd be the predominant Tradition. Hell is arguably their fault the Technocracy rose to power in the first place. If they'd been less interested in esoteric lore and more interested in the Sleepers, and if they would have listened to the fucking Taftani when the Scourge hit then ideas like chemistry and Newtonian physics would be being derided as pseudoscience and the superstition of a less enlightened age right now.

>>53879318
Well duh, Werewolves were meant to preserve something, not change things.

>>53879320
cause spheres mean so much to a dreamspeaker or cultist of MDMA right? Like you invented the concept of time, space, matter, ect. get real white boi

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>>53879340
Does this count? Made it for one of my PCs.

>>53879364
Precisely this

>Merlin [piss off Verbena he's ours]
I love you

>>53879376
They still use them

:^)

>>53879364
yeah, and all that shit is about as relevant as the cotton gin is today.

If it wasn't for symbolism being as prevailent as it is today, the modern world would have no use for hermetics whatsoever.

They take shelter in academia and hide their eccentricities, but they are being co-opted into the technocracy.

Its only a matter of time before the distinction between a hermetic and a technocrat is the tweed on his jacket.

>>53879278
>historically speaking Europe has dominated scientific thought by a shit ton

I declare total and utter bullshit, sir!

>>53879439
Either you're a dumbass or a Technocrat in disguise

>>53879439
You're right but not for the reason you think you are. Its not the Hermetics who are changing to adapt to the world, its the Technocrats who are becoming everything they initially rebelled against.

The Order of Reason was founded, in part, to stand up to the Order of Hermes. A group of ancient old men who ignore the masses, control them, and obsess over the minutiae of their lore. And what is the Technocracy right now?

A group of ancient old men who ignore the masses, control them, and obsess over the minutiae of their lore.

>>53879453
The sand niggers of space/time would like to have a word with you..

>>53879473
and yet you say its the garou who can't change

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>>53879453
You're right. It was an understatement. I'm sorry.

I should have been more thorough.

>>53879340

The truth is that the will of a lone mage is enough. How the hell else do you think the crazy-ass unique paradigms of Orphans and Marauders work?

>>53879360
>zombie apocalypse

Into the trash you go

>>53879473
tbf hermetics never so much as controlled society as they secluded themselves from it and gave it a gentle push now and then.

After all, they were still at the mercy of the feudal system, which was ultimately controlled by the vampires.

>>53879514
>How the hell else do you think the crazy-ass unique paradigms of Orphans and Marauders work?
uhhh... they don't?
They just isolate them in their own quiet and leave them jabbering with their own hobgoblins until reality decides to let them pull a couple more rabbits out of their hat.

>>53879505
>"Whether measured in people or events, 97 percent of accomplishment in the scientific inventories occurred in Europe and North America"

This is gold.

>>53879505
says the graph written by european historians who speak one language and never traveled outside the british isles.

>>53879552

And the Orphans?

>>53879596
The author (Charles Murray) specifically went out of his way to document the world's achievements. Even procuring their own areas in the book, separate from the West.

His kids are half Asian.

>>53879618
the distinction between an orphan and a marauder is largely academic. They find their way to one sect or another eventually, once they get tired of reinventing the wheel.

"nihil novi sub sole"

>>53879619
>His kids are half Asian.
that must be the good half ;)

>>53878179
And yet its M20 that won't shut up about feminism and gender and other nonsense.

>>53879505

In all fairness, we did have a bit of a head start with the scientific method. Give it time.

>>53879637

t. hermetic

>>53879667

Honestly it's not as bad as beast save for the occasional Brucato fuck-up.

The Order of Hermes should leave the losers, has beens and hippies of the Council, and join the Technocratic Union. It's long past the time the Order should have received the appreciation and respect that was more than earned in blood and tears.

Let's see how the Council fares after they don't have those "arrogant, nasty Eurocentric mages" to complain about and accommodate to any more.

The Dreamspeakers, sorry.. the Kha'vadi, and the other wretches of the Traditions can burn in a pyre of their own self-righteousness.

>>53879505
>>53879579
And of the 97 percent, 99 percent were men.

That book is hilarious. More so because it's entirely true. Perfect bait because it's not an easy thing to refute.

>>53879679
Europe was still scientifically dominant when East Asia was the apex civilization on the planet.

The white race is somewhat of an anomaly.

>>53878796
I guess I would give the Hunter more XP to start out with, and generally be more generous with Beats/XP, so that he could be a sort of Batman character.

>>53879619
>>53879722
>Charles Murray

All this over over Human Accomplishment: The Pursuit of Excellence in the Arts and Sciences, 800 B.C. to 1950?

Heck, nobody better bring up The Bell Curve...

>>53878641
I actually like the Gnosticism. Although, yeah, removing Atlantis from the spotlight was one of the best things 2e did.

>>53879711
If technocracy thinks its going to play world police with its flabby weekend warriors and legions of rice farmers in grey pajamas, they are welcome to try.

They know whats waiting for them.

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>>53879747
>a sort of Batman character

That role is already taken.

>Kill The Batman

>>53879759
The Bell Curve was also an interesting read. Human IQs have never been on equal footing.

Of course /pol/ was pissed over the Jews (Ashkenazi) having the highest.

>>53879790
>Of course /pol/ was pissed over the Jews (Ashkenazi) having the highest.

Where are the Lions of Zion in M20?

>>53879790
>(Ashkenazi)
ask him what?

... sigh. Histrionics again.

So isn't Micronesia just a modern day equivalent of Atlantis?

>>53879596
We Wuz Kangz
>in4 muh pol boogeyman

>>53879722

Like I said, now that they have the scientific method, give it time.

>>53879711
The Hermetics basically created the traditions. They'll stand behind it until there are no more traditions. And what exactly would they do in the union with all their cracker-ass mysticism

>>53879765
The Void Engineers have the single largest paranatural fighting force in the entire world of darkness. They train in de-activated power armor, having to haul that shit with them without the servos to do the work for them.

And that's not even counting the superhumans of Iteration X and the Progenitors, with NWO doing Intel work and Syndicate obtaining whatever they might need or want while denying the enemy the same.

>>53879882
>Like I said, now that they have the scientific method, give it time.

That really doesn't mean anything.

>>53879882
>HIT Marks
I've seen more impressive animitronics while riding the pirates of the carribean.

>>53879790
What's really unsettling is that whites have declined in intelligence since the Victorian period.

>>53879882
>syndicate
>thinks it controls the money supply

The giovanni would like to have a word with you

>>53877918

Why would i?

>>53879779
These guys can be your primary antagonists.

I'm just wondering why do you consider oWoD to be so rigid, you can take any city and write your own hierarchy, you can just ignore all metaplots and have a normal game of your splat, as ALL the books say, the mistery may be like this, or this, or that, or to don't exist at all, they just give you some examples and suggestions, but you are free to ignore them and create your own story and theory.
oWoD has a lot of freedom of interpretation and building, it's not as rigid as most people make it to be.

For example, with my group we play modern times just fine, you could still see some elders scared about the increased numbers of thinbloods and the likes without actually having a fucking apocalypse. (speaking of Vampire)

Also, nWoD players would always talk about "muh no metaplots and freedom of creating a setting" but if you suggest something unsual they will start attacking you for not following the books.

>>53879938

What does that handful of inbred dago vampires want? Because if it's not a sunbeam in the face, i'm afraid I can't help.

Come back when you've got Ventrue money, then we can talk.

>>53879102
I don't understand all these stereotypes about Werewolves being all "no thinky thinky, we ragey ragey and smashy"
There are plenty of Tribes that are really moderate and can live in peace with everybody, like the Children of Gaia, that are literally the chillest tribe ever, or the Glasswalkers, in a shorter extent the Bonegnawers and the Fianna are not so prone to rage and change.

>>53880019
nigga, ventrue are the nueve riche'
giovoni money so old and moldy it got new money growing on it

>>53880061
not to mention stargazers, those navel-gazers

>>53880061
The problem is that the world is fucked and Werewolves have no good way to fix things. Even the one book that spells out how they could extend Gaia's life also spells out how monumentally impossible it would be to pull it off.

And I say this as a Werewolf fan. And a Get of Fenris fan at that (Fangs of Garm for life)

>>53880061
i can solve 90% of my problems by punching them in their face.

>>53880121
lol, there should be a special kind of hunter that tracks down garou fathers and makes them pay child support.

>>53880121
Get of Fenris are troublemakers and suicidal.

>>53880144
She-Ra, werewolf attorney at law!

I'm so angry! Why are women afraid of me all the time? Sometimes I just get so horny I want to RAARRRGGGGHHH!!!

>>53880187
Oh man... I think I left some rage over the carpet

>>53880061
>I don't understand all these stereotypes about Werewolves being all "no thinky thinky, we ragey ragey and smashy"

Stereotypes?

Did you somehow forget the entirety of the history of the Garou Nation or the inconvenient Rage issue that afflicts every werewolf?

>>53880150
I keep telling them to blow up factories, they keep signing up to fight overseas. Score 1 4 Pork Feces

>>53880205

I hate getting the rage stains out of the carpet!

>Petco - Where The Pets Go

>>53880213
smash appropriately with the help of your parent or guardian.

>>53880213
Pretty much like every Vampire have to live with a man slaughting beast inner self for centuries, but you can see them being present in cities from the beginning of time, but you don't see stereotypes of them about being killing machines without control.

>>53880255
never in my life have i seen so many dead puppies...

>>53878924
I didn't know skill tricks and conviction were even a thing. Conviction especially seems cool as fucking hell. Thanks, anon.

>>53880278
iz funny cause 'implications'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yUafzOXHPE

>>53880268
I imagine being a vampire would actually be incredibly boring.

I get bored in my one mortal lifetime, imagine having 10 or more lifetimes.

They must collect a lot of stamps or something.

>>53880318
I've always had this theory that really old vampires develope multiple personality disorder as they constantly have to reinvent themselves and forget previous lifetimes in order to acclimate themselves to modern society.

teenage werewolves must commit a lot of rape.

>>53880318
They probably develop Schizophrenia from being so lonely all the time.

Unless they fall in love or something. Which isn't a good thing.

>>53880371
lonely?
hardly.
they are surrounded by progeny.
thats part of the problem.

>>53880268
>Pretty much like every Vampire have to live with a man slaughting beast inner self for centuries, but you can see them being present in cities from the beginning of time, but you don't see stereotypes of them about being killing machines without control.

Vampires have an ample historical body count. The difference is that vampire culture far better understands the value of public relations and control of human authorities and media.

Vampires also have the advantage of not slobbering on themselves and smelling like wet dog when in frenzy,

>>53880399
no, they just smell like a dead possum thats been left out in the rain all week.

ratkin motto: i stink, therefore i am

>>53878641
>Its much easier to just ignore half the supplements and bad ideas in the World of Darkness then it is to supply tons of new ideas in the Chronicles of Darkness.

This pretty much, but i will add this:

"NWoD lives or dies on the talent of the DM that you play in. If we grab the most generic by the numbers DM we can find and make him run both OWoD and Chrod. The latter game is gonna become much more unbearable than the former because DM talent aside at least you got the setting itself as written to get a little of fun. Not such luck with Chrod as the setting itself is at the complete whims of the DM as there is no baseline."

Someones approaches me and tells "i a gonna run a Masquerade games and i make some basic questions about the city itself but more or less i know what i am gonna get into, what the "usual masquerade" and if the DM is gonna do away with the "usual" masquerade then he has to let me know if he isn't an asshole. With Chrod i have to do a 2 hours chat about what the game is gonna be because i gotta assume that he is gonna do away with the "usual" requiem because there isn't any "usual" Requiem to begin with. So i could join the game with say a Ordo Dracul member who lives the philosophy of the Dragons only to find out that in the city the DM interpret the dragons as a nigger gang who trades the Coils for coke to sell or something.

>>53880399
pretty sure vampires were the ones who invented perfume to mask the stench of death that follows them wherever they go.

>>53880371
Can Elders/Methuselahs even fall in love? I was under the impression that they're all skewered in the head.

The one example of a Methuselah relationship in Masquerade was full of unfairness, selfishness and total disregard for the other partner(s)

That said, the Tzimisce Antediluvian would make the absolute best husbando.

>>53879711
>The Order of Hermes should leave the losers, has beens and hippies of the Council, and join the Technocratic Union. It's long past the time the Order should have received the appreciation and respect that was more than earned in blood and tears.

Why would the Order of Hermes join any group in which they wouldn't be the top dogs?

>>53879998
>I'm just wondering why do you consider oWoD to be so rigid

Autism, thats why.

>Also, nWoD players would always talk about "muh no metaplots and freedom of creating a setting" but if you suggest something unsual they will start attacking you for not following the books.

This, also.

well, i gotta go. been fun chatting.

>>53880360
Its not rape if they actually want it

it is rape if they weren't expecting The Knot

>>53880444
>pretty sure vampires were the ones who invented perfume to mask the stench of death that follows them wherever they go.

Eau de Exsanguination

Can someone tell me how to into Mage? I just can't get excited about them, which is strange because in fantasy games and RPGs I always want to be the magic man. The fuck is going on.

>>53880061
>I don't understand all these stereotypes about Werewolves being all "no thinky thinky, we ragey ragey and smashy"

Because their society prize that answer above all else even when it is clearly the wrong one. If a nexus crawler is gonna eat your caern and you got 2 options:

1) Play diplomat with other feuding Septs to help you and better the spiritual landscape on without killing to make in on your favor (basically, no ragey smashy option)

2) Charge with klaives at hands.

If option 1 or 2 pans out then yai! Renown. However if option 1 or 2 pans out then things change. If option 1 fails, then you commitment to the war and honor is questioned. Why didnt you fight they will ask? You scare or just a traitor or worse incompetent. If option 2 fails then you died in the service of Gaia and are buried in honor for your bravery. So option 2 is a the most sought option because works or fails you "win".

So in the end the society that the Garou trap themselves in perpetuates that response subtly. No garou thinks "Win or die i still win" but they do think "Fight is what warriors do, is what my ancestors did and if i die in this battle i will do so with honor" without taking into account other options.

>>53880585
You probably lack an imagination.

>in fantasy games and RPGs I always want to be the magic man
You can play your favorite kind/type of wizard in Mage. This should be easy for you.

Are werewolves the biggest retards in both old n' new WoD?

Is it also wrong to declare mages as the smartest?

>>53880585
Is this Old World of Darkness or Chronicles of Darkness Mage?
For old, look around for a paradigm that you like, or invent your own.
For chronicles, think of what you are going to be doing, what kind of character you want to play as, and what kind of Arcanum seem interesting.

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>>53880608
>You probably lack an imagination.
If that's the case I'm in the wrong hobby

>This should be easy for you
I know, that's why I don't know what the fuck is going on. This is literally the only system that I am drawn to shit other than wizard types.

>>53880622
oWoD Werewolves, yes. Followed closely by that dipshit Technocrat outcast who thought nuking the Underworld was a smart move.
nWoW Werewolves are pretty cool dudes all things considered. I'd place a couple Hunter groups and maybe Prometheans as the nWoD tards.

>>53880622
Are they accomplishing there goals?
In old, they are failing hard, due to sheer retardation.

In new, not really. Their job is to be the world's ICE agents, and they are ok at it. Not the greatest, but the world isn't going to end anytime soon because the woofs couldn't do their job properly.

>>53880677
Well, I'm not really sure that WWes would be able to win even if they would think and act properly by listening to things and to charging at everything in sight.

>>53880622

OWoD werewolves : Dumb as Fuck
NWoD Werewolves: Mixed Bag

OWoD Mages: Mixed Bag
NWoD Mages: Turbonerds

>>53880622
>Are werewolves the biggest retards in both old n' new WoD?
Old has people like Tremere/Caine/Giovanni but the Werewolves are pretty big retards.
nWoD has Beasts and Prometheans. Werewolves are good there.

>>53877918
Isn't classic WoD that dumb fucking setting with dumb shit like Italian mafia vampires, gypsy vampires, racist werewolves, and a bunch of stupid fucking metaplot

sounds like nostalgiafag shit

>>53881315
>sounds like nostalgiafag shit
There's lots of money in nostalgiafaggotry.

>>53881315
The 90s were great.

>>53881113
>>53881311
>>53880622

Werewolves aren't particularly stupid or troublesome in CofD. If you don't bother them, they don't bother you, and many are fairly competent.

As a baseline, even douche mages have no reason to eradicate them, and some reasons to actually maintain positive relationships. Compare that to vampires who are often considered little more than kindling with delusions of grandeur among the Wise.

>>53881315
>dumb shit like Italian mafia vampires

That's a nice metaplot you got there, it would be a shame if something happened to it...

>>53881364
>As a baseline, even douche mages have no reason to eradicate them

Not necessarily so, they have a tendency to moralfag at you and get in the way of Mystery pursuits.

>>53881315
It's dumb shit because I say so.
That's a nice argument you got there

>>53881495
>Not necessarily so, they have a tendency to moralfag at you and get in the way of Mystery pursuits.
CofD werewolves moralfag? One tribe is dedicated to slaying humans and human institutions.

>>53881495
>Not necessarily so, they have a tendency to moralfag at you and get in the way of Mystery pursuits.

As a race, werewolves are not particularly offensive or troublesome to mage. Of course, it's always very dangerous to get between a mage and his chosen Mystery (or worse, ihe mage find *you* interesting), but werewolves shouldn't be that much more likely than you average Sleeper monkey in irritating a particular member of the Wise.

Werewolves also seem perfectly suited to be mage lackeys and servants, and if very competent, junior members of the Orders.

>>53881580
>>53881601
Werefaggots get pissy when you dominate and mess with the spirit ecosystem.

They're like fucking vegans.

>>53881678
Oh you mean 1e. The only ones who care about that now are Fire Touched.

>>53881697
Forsaken 2e's lore was a mistake.

>>53881754
>muh spirit police

Fuck you mate

>>53881697
isn't there a specific group of werewolves who target the other supe splats as their chosen prey?

>>53881779
>muh noble hunt
Nah m8. Being the magic Men In Black was cool.

>>53881862
I believe there's multiple.

>>53881779
>>53881867
>lel spirit police werewolves
>goes up against bitch thyrsus
>dead

good job weretards

>>53881862
there's lots of lodges who do that

Aren't mages are proficient in general magics? Jack of trades masters of nothing etc.

They can work spirit fate and mind tricks but werewolves, changelings and vampires will be always be better in their area of proficiency.

>>53882044
More or less. Mages can do Spirit stuff Werewolves can't do, Werewolves can do Spirit stuff Mages can't do.

>>53882044
>They can work spirit fate and mind tricks but werewolves, changelings and vampires will be always be better in their area of proficiency.
controlling the shadow isn't a werewolf's area of proficiency but they are great at knowing their territory

>>53882082
>>53882044
God no. Jesus Christ. I hate when people assume this. You're like the idiots on the actual damn OPP forums.

Mind 2 trumps Domination 4 and even Dominate 5 at higher intervals.
Fate 4 will steamroll everything a Changeling can do
Spirit -anything- is going to put Werewolves to shame.

>>53882044
No. Mages as a splat are the best at everything. The Mind Arcanum is better at political stuff than anything vamps have. Fate shuts down Changelings hard. Spirit makes you a better shaman than the woofs. Forces lets you blast your way through pretty much everything. Etc.

As individuals, you only have so much XP to spend, and there are 10 Arcanums, so the best strategy is to focus on one or two and team up with other Mages who focused on other stuff. Then, steamroll your way through the opposition.

>>53882044
>Mages
>Jack of all trades, masters of all

fixed

>>53882111
>Spirit -anything- is going to put Werewolves to shame.
Catastrophe trumps mages in range. Along with most territory abilities, which are unlimited in scope. Mages have limits in scale others don't.

>when some idiot spews blatant falseness regarding anything mage related

this is why we can't have nice things

>>53882146
>Mages have limits in scale others don't.
and distance/duration

I can't visualize how WtA or MtA works.

For Werewolves:
>Do the tribes live together in the wilderness (Excluding glasswalkers) or some remote villages? Or do they even live close to each other at all. I understand that there can be differences but what is the typical tribe like?

>Is there any way for Werewolves to solve problems other than smashing things? Seems like a dumb question but looking at all of their codes and culture it seems like the most intelligent solution for them is to fight due to reputation and their natural physical advantages. There doesn't seem to be an incentive to solve things any other way. It also seems difficult to weave difficult plots for this sort of setting due to it being less socially inclined.

For Mages:
>How to other supernaturals even exist with Mages around? Since Werewolves like to steal carens, couldn't a mage just blast them all from a distance? Since vampires are generally seen as bad by some traditions, how have they not just been wiped out by some mage that creates an incredibly infectious blood disease that only affects Vampires and kills them instantly? How can a mage campaign be serious if they're so strong.

I understand different power levels and honestly it's a good idea, but Mage just seems way over the top. Maybe I just don't know enough about these settings yet. I don't want to mess with the lore before I know more about it, but I'm thinking of increasing the number of werewolves and Mages by a lot to instill some more politics and lowering the scale/power of Mage.

>>53882146
>Catastrophe trumps mages in range
Not when mages start cheesing things.

There are also clear limits for Werewolves.
Not sure what you're trying to say here.

>>53882146
>Mages have limits in scale others don't.

Oh man. It's almost like you think Space doesn't exist.

>>53882198
>I have to assume my Mage has 5 dots in every Arcana or my powerwank argument falls apart.

>>53882185
>Not when mages start cheesing things.
Area of effect cannot be increased further.
how do you cheese that?
>There are also clear limits for Werewolves.
radius of 2 x renmown in miles
5 renown = 20 mile diameter area of effect

>>53882222
>assuming you even need 5 dots in Space to fuck around with distance and scale

>>53882185
>There are also clear limits for Werewolves.
>Not sure what you're trying to say here.
There's clear limits for mage AoE.
Many werewolf gifts work around "the territory" which can be the size of a warehouse to the size of a town or the entire world (if you want to cheese things).

>>53882235
So they do have limits. Thank you for confirming.

>how do you cheese that?
Oh I don't know... How about conjuring half a dozen living firestorms and sending them to immolate the boreal forest of Canada? Maybe even make them immune to being put out while you're at it.

Or continuously stack places and locations on top of one another.

>>53880318
Blood is better than heroin, however. And heroin makes you not care about how bored you are.

>>53882274
>or the entire world
Well aren't you desperate for recognition

That's like me saying I use Space 5 to create Sympathy for every living being on the planet.

>>53882283
>How about conjuring half a dozen living firestorms and sending them to immolate the boreal forest of Canada?
Which doesn't extend your AoE.

>>53882312
In terms of after effects? It kind of does. That fire is going to stay there for a while.

And spread. With no chance of being put out.

Retarded werefags inbound

>>53882304
>Well aren't you desperate for recognition
I'm not the magefag proclaiming superiority.
It's an extreme example but is the kind of thing that pops up here in the thread where all mages are 10th degree archmasters.

>>53882358
>where all mages are 10th degree archmasters

We're discussing 1/3 of the ten Arcana. Five dots at most. Congratulations on being a whiner.

>>53882222
Sympathetic range is a 2 dot attainment.

>>53882174
The werewolves in WtA are retarded spergs that have a constant rage boner.

As for Mage, well, oWoD isn't known for having a consistent or logical cosmology. Don't do crossovers is all that I will suggest.

>>53882174
The idea that all Mages have the spheres and Arete required to dickpunch the local supernaturals into oblivion is silly. It takes a relatively obscure paradigm to be able to blast at range in the first place.

Your average mages are in the Arete 1-3 range, not 5+. And like all proper WoD characters, they are people with motivations and goals of their own - they're not sociopathic player characters who are willing to employ nukes to get a few extra points of quintessence per week.

>>53882458
>It takes a relatively obscure paradigm to be able to blast at range in the first place.

Not really.

>>53882458
That's not how you get Quintessence........

>>53882458
>It takes a relatively obscure paradigm to be able to blast at range in the first place
Oh God, please smite my enemies
I shall conjure a ball of fire using the 5th Incantion of Pyros
I channel Chi into a blast of fire
I implore Gaia to blast him with a burst of mythic fire
I agitate his wave-form until his body spontaneously generates phlogiston

And that's the simple methods

>>53882575
And for technocrats:
I figure out his location with my computer, and send out the HiTmarks.
I make a contagion tailor made for his genome.
Can't think of anything for NWO.
I pay a hit team to go kill him, and get the government to confiscate his stuff.
I blast him from space with my satellite.

>>53882630
>Can't think of anything for NWO
"I take out my prototype long range self guided railgun that R&D gave me for this mission and shoot the filthy reality deviant in it's face from the other side of the city"

>>>53878247 →
>>53878275

Even when they're easily the most overpowered supernatural species?

>>53882838
How are they the most overpowered?

>>53879927
Not in absolute terms. The chart of results is revised periodically because the median IQ is on an upward trend year over year. White people are, on average, much smarter than they were only 50 years ago. It's just that everyone else is too.

>>53882902
You must be referring to the Flynn Effect. It's based around common knowledge, and both fluctuates up and down. We are becoming brighter based upon accumulated information and education.

We lost an average of 14 IQ points since the Victorian period based on RS comparisons. This isn't exactly refutable. We were indeed smarter in previous centuries then we are now.

>>53882945
Huh. I hadn't seen that before.

Why do you think that might be?

>>53882981
Various reasons. A common one being that for some reason intelligent whites don't wish to procreate and spread their genes, unlike the Victorian period.

Whether this is cultural or based on individual personalities is unknown.

>>53882981

http://www.iapsych.com/iqmr/fe/LinkedDocuments/woodley2013.pdf

>>53882981
Distractions of modern age might play a role in an apparent IQ loss.

>>53879882
>And what exactly would they do in the union with all their cracker-ass mysticism
That is actually an interesting question. How would things change if the Hermetics up and joined the Technocracy do to some contrived bullshit?

What would it even take for that to happen?

>>53880664
Maybe because in a gameline about playing monsters you do not want to play a superhuman?

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>>53883353
Impossible. It was an option seriously considered back in the 1500s and 1600s but its utterly nonsense now.

Back when the Order of Reason's paradigm still included alchemy or even bits of astrology its conceivable to see the two Orders converging and resulting in some global magitek world-order but not now. The Orders are different in philosophy, ideology, approach, hierarchy, in every meaningful way other then "Both are scholarly" they view the universe is totally separate ways.

>>53882146
I once did the calculations and very little deals more mass destruction than Mass Create (Water) + Cataclysm. Stacking spheres of water that each span several miles in the same place would wipe any city off the face of the Earth once you got done setting it up.

>>53883014
I assume that was sarcasm.
The reasons why intelligent white people don't have 30 fucking kids are well understood and documented.

>>53878796
Wolfos need to be over-exploited by their weaknesses (Silver, high spiritual affinity, others) a la Persona fuckery more or less. Vigil Hunters need no real nerfing, neither biters, more or less. Mages should be considered as Hunters as well since they're vulnerable to mortal wounds unlike biters and wolvos yet wielders of great power.

>>53878926
Mages are still soft, squishy, crushable sponges, though.

>>53878999
Still not heroes, regardless.

>>53878968
Correct.

>>53878985
But the moral relativists are the very tyrants who you are being an apologist for, anon.

>>53879037
Pretty cool post, but Technocrats are not the humans they think they are part of. Sad indeed.

>>53879190
Would you say the Marauders are the right answer or state to a Mage? What about Nephandi? Or even being a full head-on Technocrat?

>>53883650
>Mages are still soft, squishy, crushable sponges, though.
Nuh uh! Magefags assure me they never walk out of the house without casting a dozen spells to make sure they always know when they'll be in danger next and how to defend against it.

>>53879318
> magic is the ultimate adaptation
> mages haven't saved the world yet

I wonder what could have been meant by this.

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> people not seeing Euthanatos are the most united, coordinated and coherent tradition amongst them all

>>53879473
> ignore the masses

Speak for your own ignorance, for we, the NWO owe ourselves to the masses as they are thorugh us.

>>53879523
>After all, they were still at the mercy of the feudal system, which was ultimately controlled by the vampires.

At least you recognize who your daddies were.

>>53879552
Go up to a Marauder or Orphan and try to show your nice "attitude" and "understanding". Tell us then how it goes when you get back.

And of course, Hermetics don't have hobgoblins nor quiets. Never ever.

>>53883759
According to the Revised Syndicate book, mankind rejects Utopia.

They tried that in 2007.
"Market Correction" broke the world economy over its knee.

>>53879711
Akashics and Euthanatos, no, Euthanatoi alone are enough to wipe the floor with them, Dreamspeakers as support if we want to go full overkill. Stick your huge magic rod up your ass and behave, would you?

>>53879882
> The Hermetics basically created the traditions. They'll stand behind it until there are no more traditions.

Mice with the skin of lions, basically.

> The Void Engineers have the single largest paranatural fighting force in the entire world of darkness. They train in de-activated power armor, having to haul that shit with them without the servos to do the work for them.
> And that's not even counting the superhumans of Iteration X and the Progenitors, with NWO doing Intel work and Syndicate obtaining whatever they might need or want while denying the enemy the same.

What would happen if they also joined forces for real (no, well, minimum backstabby and treachery shit) with the Society of Leopold and all hunters, human and imbued as well?

>>53883731
You only need one or two spells to assure your safety, anon. You sure do love to exaggerate.

>>53883506
It essentially boils down to the fact that intelligent people are disincentivized from having children because their quality of life will drop dramatically for each child they have, while stupid people don't care or just put the burden on the state instead.

>>53883731
You only need the brand of mage armor that comes from your favorite sphere. Matter armor literally makes you immune to bullets.

>>53883908
And the only reason this is the same is because the economy is absolute garbage floating on a pile of financial witchcraft with no real substance underneath and even our money only has value because we kill anyone who tries to trade for oil in anything other then it, inflating its value unnaturally high.

>>53883463
The only things I can think of that can outdo werewolves in terms of mass destruction are mummies (meteors) and mages (forces/space) and possibly demons going loud.

>>53879998
This, holy fuck, this.

What do you think about the "mechanics for nWoD are better! fuck oWoD!!!!" argument?

>>53883868
>Euthanatoi alone are enough to wipe the floor with them
The Euthanatoi aren't actually the strongest mages for combat, as other Traditions employ their own battlemages.

Hermetics in general are monstrous. I question why they even need a House based around combat.

It's always the old bearded man you want to watch out for the most.

>>53883923
Forgetting Archmages on purpose or?

>super wizards can affect the entire goddamn planet
>no other splat can do that

I used to think that "not all mages are going to be prepared for anything"
But then I realized it only takes a moment to utilize Time 1 to keep yourself save from 'anything' for the day.

Are the mages in WoD fiction just retarded?

>>53880444
Vampires don't smell, the curse magic coming from their blood makes their bodies odorless and organically static yet capable of movement, thus not rotten.

>>53883993
Doesn't Time 1 only tell you the next time you're going to be in danger, not every single instance of danger you'll face in a day?

>>53880448
I want Arikel-chama as my slutty incomprehensibly-sexy waifu!

>>53883993
>Are the mages in WoD fiction just retarded?
Yes, incredibly so.

However Time 1 can still only tell you what is likely.
Your actions from that point onwards can still change that prediction.
And unless you have a rote, or it's a ruling arcanum, it'll take mana.

But yeah, the prevalence of Mages who can make such predictions with significant ease has substantial implications which many people ignore.

>>53883993
Mage haters like to think that it's not an easy thing to prepare for the day with such minimal effort.

They're fucking wrong of course.

>Are the mages in WoD fiction just retarded?
We've barely seen any mages (of notable repute) actually do anything. So it's really impossible to say.

>>53882882
In oWoD at least they are nasty overpowered.

>>53883731
> what's Domino Effect
> what's accumulated Domino Effect and Paradox

Conveniently forgotten as per usual.

>>53883847
Ah, so that was the infamous experiment mentioned in other books they tried and backfired awfully.

> mankind rejects Utopia.

Persona all over again.

>>53883615
Mage Armor is basically built in at this point.

>Changeling 1e repeatedly attempts to drive home the point that racists are still very much people with good sides and bad sides, not monsters, just flawed
>Changeling 2e is probably going to be DRUMPF NAZI LOYALISTS OF THE TRUE FAE
It was my favorite game, why did they do this

>>53883973
I considered Archmages and saw no reason to include them because of course they can. There was no reason to even mention them.

>mind 4 is superior to dominate
>yes but did you ever consider mind 9?

>>53884352
>>Changeling 1e repeatedly attempts to drive home the point that racists are still very much people with good sides and bad sides, not monsters, just flawed

Changling 1e was 'Taxes and other boring things will literally kill you, go on your magical otherkin adventures in a pure and perfect world that make you look like a madman to the normies'

>>53884352
Maybe they have, or maybe you are just making up things to be mad at. Do not create an unknown future than treat it as it as if it already came to pass.

>>53884389
It's Onyx Path. What anon has presented is the best of all possible futures.

>>53884370
>Taxes and other boring things will literally kill you
You mean 'Doing literally anything more exciting than a walk in the park will drive you insane'?

>>53883923
moab bomb? Drop one on a pack and shit em up.

hunters ftw!

>>53883928
>What do you think about the "mechanics for nWoD are better! fuck oWoD!!!!" argument?

That they are barely an improvement, for every thing they fixed they fuck up another.

No more shitty damage rolls? Cant apply defense to bullets
No more variable targeting number for successes? Now target number for successes is stupidly high
No more shitty system for botches? Now there is no botches unless the you bribe the players.
Better explained merits? No more flaws.

>>53883916
>Matter armor literally makes you immune to bullets.

Matter's mage armor doesn't make you immune to bullets because the damage from a bullet is because of kinetic energy, not an intrinsic property of the material. You need *Forces* armor. At least, in Awakening 2e.

>>53884352
Were you aware that it is possible ... I barely dare say it ... to keep some parts of the old and add some parts of the new ?
And what's more, you can do something both productive and fun for everyone that's called "not shitposting" or even "going back to /pol/"
I'm sure you can manage it, I believe in you, anon
Now fuck off

>>53884894
What's Matter mage armor again? It affects things around the mage, right? Like the bullet would soften while the air around them would solidify to block it, or something.

>>53884894
matter mage armour gives you armour, so it slows down bullets, to be completely immune you need a forces shielding spell not forces mage armour at least in 2e

>>53884891
>Moaning about not being able to dodge bullets?
Wtf world do you live in where normal people can dodge/soak bullets?

>>53882981

Because IQ is a measure of rote memory rather than intelligence, and human brains are re-specializing towards indexing rather than memorizing. The Highest IQ in history belonged to an advice columnist with exceptional recall.

>>53882554
The context was Mages stealing quint from Caerns (which are powerful Nodes).

>>53885383
Werewolves don't know how to use Quintessence. They should hand all Caerns over to mages.

It only makes sense.

>>53885297

Same kind with werewolves vampires and consesual reality/shitty atlantis cosmology

We're going to start a vampire group soon, and I want to roll with a nosferatu cause I love ugly shits.
At first i wanted to run him either as a nerdy hacker or some crazy weapon Lover who spends a lot of time tinkering away in his base.
But then I realised I don't know diddly either about tech or guns, so that's out of the window.

Any other idea on how to make a fun nosferatu?
I was also thinking about trying a close combat monster, if that is even possible.

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How do you Moros?

>>53885644
dur, potence and invis is super good for close combat?

if you cant think of how then you need to go play some other game.

>>53884929
>the idea of treating a complex issue like race relations in a cartoonishly simple manner bothers me, and having seen other OPP products lately I'm worried that it will happen
>OMG GB2/pol/
Look man I don't have a problem with characters identifying as non-binary or using nonstandard pronouns, I'm just saying that the trajectory of recent CofD lines has me a bit frightened that a great deal of the nuance in the setting is going to be removed in favor of a simplistic narrative that appeals to a crowd I don't agree with.

>>53885705
Have you considered that I might be asking for some advice because I don't have access to the rules as of yet?

Also, come on dude, if you can't be helpful, just don't reply at all.

>>53883928
I personally prefer oWoD's mechanics.

>>53885339
Have you actually taken an IQ test? It's only a small portion on recall. You can practice, but it's not memory.

Though the fact that people don't memorize things any more doesn't help intelligence particularly.

>>53881342
Case in point >>53881349

>>53885695
Last Moros I made was an Archmage of Death who tried (and failed) to absorb a few million Ghosts into himself and ascend with them into the Supernal Realms.

Turns out the Psychopomp doesn't play nice with people who try and bust down to the door to the afterlife.

>>53886164
There can only be so many Archmages floating around in the Supernal.

At least to those pesky Exarchs.

>>53886164
Nigga didn't you read Soul Cage? Koschi tried that same move and got stomped by the Psychopomp too. Well, Psychopomp and the General. And that guy had a fortress built out of pieces of the Temenos and the Underworld too.

>>53879667
blame Brucato

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>>53886622
No, I have not read that.
Personally I was more channeling Hellboy's Oannes society.

>>53878840
or it could be because Leftists constantly want to push inane limitations on what can and can't be said

>>53879223
then M20, with its wonderful Disparate Council that castrates rapists and is so diverse and shiny and new and un-european is perfect for you

>>53879596
sounds more like your prejudice coming through :^)

>>53886752
If you don't mind reading campaign logs give it a read, it's one of the Komodolords games that got a fair amount of people that wrote off M:tAW to give the setting another look.

>>53879820
they don't want trigger palestinians, so they excluded them. They were fine as long as Jews were a minority, now, they are too sensitive a subject

>>53880187
Can Werewolves not force women to have sex with them via magical "animal attraction"?

>>53886038

140, but it's been a long time.

>>53886879

I never really get into Soul Cage, but Broken Diamond was Genius. That speaks more to Dave's ability as a writer than Awakening as a setting, though.

This thread... worst of /tg/ again

>muh oWoD vs. CofD

Jaysus its not 2006. Play whatever damn edition you like.

That being said:

In my personal opinion the oWoD is much better.

The effort you have to use to make x-overs possible is much lower than the one to create a good CofD.

Also the CofD lacks originiality and tries to inject a more modern Zeitgeist (which could be easily achieved by toning down the edge in the oWoD, and honestly the WoD just is edgy to a degree why not embrace it).

>muh magefags jerking off

Discuss something interesting for a change.

>alternative scenario:

>traditions win a lenghty ascension war in the year 2000
>a mage kills the US president on live tv
>paradigm shifts
>order of hermes ruthlessly hunts people trying to oppose the new order
>technology gets more and more unreliable while mythical elements become more and more common
>most families don't own a car anymore, instead they secure their house with runes and always pour some salt to please the ghosts
>mythological creatures and ghosts start appearing world wide
>technocracy shattered
>technos hunted like dogs
>some just give up
>others try to bring back order and reason

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>>53887519
>prefers owod
>likes crossover
>thinks originality is just throwing whatever you can at a wall and hoping it sticks
>acknowledging magefags
>only contribution in the whole post is a lame homebrew

>>53887519
>>alternative scenario:

>Reruns of Highlander are the top show in primetime
>Adrian Paul finally get his star on Hollywood Walk of Fame
>Shadowrun licenses IP to movie studios and it franchise films eclipse both Marvel and DC

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>>53887591

>likes crossover

Never said i do. In myWoD the other splats are not really protagonists or playable. They are just story elements and their mythology is tied to the one of my main splat (vampire)

>thinks originality is just throwing whatever you can at a wall and hoping it sticks

Hurr durr the CofD are just objectively better fromagamedesignpoijnt blah blah...fuck off

>acknowledging magefags

The whole fucking threadis full of magefags. Am i supposed to talk to myself or worse go to the OPP forums?


>>53887598

>Shadowrun licenses IP to movie studios and it franchise films eclipse both Marvel and DC

>shadowrun quickly evolves into a """"modern"""" franchise where 90% of the characters are trans or gay or colored (in case of humans)
>left wing angle constantly overplayed

No thank you senpai.

>>53887698
>Shadowrun
>>left wing angle constantly overplayed

>Nothing worse than wizard privilege
>Fight Shaman pay-gap
>Spirits are People Too

>He Ho, the fireballs have go to go
>No Magic, No Peace

>>53887519
>alternative scenario:
>traditions win a lenghty ascension war in the year 2000
>a mage kills the US president on live tv
>paradigm shifts
>order of hermes ruthlessly hunts people trying to oppose the new order


Grand Magister Trump

Making Magic Great Again

>Euthanatos ban necessary for national security
>removes protections for Dreamspeaker refugees and migrants

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>>53888295
Meme Magic becomes the dominate paradigm of Earth, Kek emerges from the Umbra and replaces Reality Hacking with Reality Shitposting.
8 out of 9 traditions BTFO
Technocrats BTFO
Nephandi BTFO
Marauders sitting there looking smug
LaughingVirtualAdepts.jpg

>>53888295

>Euthanatos

Silly Anon, that's not how you spell Batini. Besides, the Hindis love his ass.

>>53886759
what does "leftist" mean? and in what way are they trying to control whati you say?

>>53888881
>what does "leftist" mean? and in what way are they trying to control whati you say?

Have you missed the entire left-wing movement to ban "hate speech" in the USA or the controversial speech codes on many college campuses than effectively try to eliminate anything resembling conservative ideas? Have you notices the riots when people like Ann Coulter speak at universities or more liberal cities?

>>53888966
And the "This [game / book /movie] has [Offensive humor / 'problematic' content / revealing armor] and that hurts our feelings, we demand you censor it or we'll like violent retards until we get our way" movement.

>>53884370
That's Dreaming. Anon was talking about Changeling the Lost in nWoD.

>>53888966
When you say " "hate speech" " what is it you mean?

And what are those conservative ideas?

And no, I've heard of no riots and honestly don't know who Coulter is (not from the U.S.)

>>53889022
I mean obviously you're biased but don't you think this is strawmanning it a bit hard?

>>53888027

>in depth documentation about underprivileged orcs brutally slaughtering innocent elfs and humans
>orcs are the good guys ebcause of systematic oppression


>>53888295
>low energy jeb leads the technocracy
>marco rubio is a marauder
>cruzmissile obviously a nephandi

>>53889230
Nigga game devs get death threats from these wackjobs because they have a character with big tits, people have had their offices firebombed for telling an 'offensive' joke on Twitter, people have had their kids threatened, their parents threatened, SWATed, all sorts of nasty shit. Not a strawman when it happens, anon.

>>53888881
Several people lost their jobs in Canada for supporting the right of artists to engage in "cultural appropriation", which is something that games like WoD rely on.

>>53888295
>Giant Walls arise around America
>Crooked Hillary is thrown into a Paradox Realm where she relives the election over and over again

>>53889367
>Cruz
>Anything but a Euthanatos.
The man is a professional killer and has an army of Skelegets

>>53889395
>>53889468

Do you have any sources? I really can't take these claims at face value because they sound completely wack

>>53889689
http://www.economist.com/news/americas/21722692-writers-wrong-side-debate-lose-their-jobs-canadas-war-over-cultural-appropriation

>>53889689
To be entirely honest anon, it's too goddamn early for me to go delving into the retarded depths of the internet to find all the articles.

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New Thread Header for those of you who are into that

>>53889762
Culture is entirely made of information aka memes.

Information(memes) wants to be free

Memes spread and mutate in ways beyond the control of their creators in order to survive in new host cultures, either thriving or dying as they attempt to adjust

THIS is why "cultural appropriation" isn't a thing. Cultural MISappropriation, which is when someone uses false cultural information to manipulate people is a thing.

>>53890046
See anon, that's what a smart person would think.
These are not smart people we're talking about, these are the people who think owning a Dreamcatcher if you're not from the obscure Canadian tribe that first developed them is an act of war.

>>53885797
Theres a entire trove of books in a link above.

You totally have access to the rules nigga, its not my fault you cant read.

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What did Brucato mean by this?

>>53890297
>Tyrion
>Matser
Laughing fat men.png

>>53890297

It was foolish to use pop culture as examples of phenomena in the book.

Media references often don't age well. If M20 is around in any capacity 20 years from now, Game of Thrones references will likely prove meaningless to much of the audience, many of whom might not have been alive or were too young to know about the books or show.

However, as a demonstration of Brucato's middling skills as an author or as demonstration of his douchiness, this barely rates.

>>53890373
>>53890335
Why are anons always so pissed about FUCKING EVERYTHING
"Oh he tried to do something funny and different for a change"
"FUCK BRUCCATO!!11211343!"

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Was it autism?

>>53890986
Chill out. I just disagree with Tyrion being a master in the game of thrones. He should be swapped with Varys.

>>53890986
He didn't do anything funny or different, he littered his book with useless pop culture references that are useless if you didn't watch X show that was popular at the time. And in descriptions of what rules mean no less.

>>53890046
Cultural appropriation and cultural misappropriation is synonymous

>>53890161
Forgot to include you

See
>>53891283

>>53890986

Brucatto, go home

>>53891047
or Littlefinger. Adding Tyrion as Master is wishful thinking of someone who has only watched the show

>>53890986

Brucato is a self-righteous asshole who's also not a particularly talented writer or developer.

Many believe his involvement in M20, i.e., developing and writing almost everything, was subpar and did not do justice to the quintessential game (although blame is certainly shared with RichT).

I don't care that he was trying to do something "funny." The reference was an admittedly very minor demonstration of his lack of ability, professionalism and over-inflated ego. If the rest of M20 and the supplements were at least better than average, no one would care in the slightest about the small Game of Thrones reference. However, when the rest of your work is crap, people start noticing more and more problems.

I knew the M20 line under Brucato was going to be disappointing when he complained about how little space he had for the rules and setting, yet somehow managed to fit player culinary demands in the book. You don't even need to delve into more polarizing Issues like how the book in many places is little more than Phil's political manifesto. There's more than enough other material to demonstrate that Phil is a preachy, untalented hack. He was hardly the cream of the WW crop in the 1990's, and he has only worsened with age.

However, don't forget to donate to his Patreon so he doesn't get evicted...

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>>53891283

>>53891425
>However, don't forget to donate to his Patreon so he doesn't get evicted...

Can i donate money to get him evicted?

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>>53891425
but anon, he has since dedicated even more wordcount to explain the subtleties of politics

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>>53891425
Sorry I can only read autism from this post.

>>53891616

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53891602
Stop projecting

>>53891486
You sure got me there, well played good sir

>>53891565

Read the FAQ. He actually spends a few paragraphs denying the book has any leftest or liberal bent, then in the very same section he discusses how proud he is that the book is so openly progressive and that's is so important and necessary.

Phil lacks any ability at self-reflection. He so convinced of his self-righteousness that I honestly don't believe he even understands the nature of various criticisms directed at his work and the book.

M20 has organizational and content problems well beyond the politics that can be blamed on Phil. Nevertheless, even among the admittedly very liberal and preachy WW crew, I would consider his intelligence and persuasive skills at the very bottom of the barrel.

>>53891602
>Sorry I can only read autism from this post.


Well, I'm glad Phil and M20 has some dedicated fans.

Unfortunately, original fans like myself, and apparently most purchasers of M20, remain disappointed.

M20 could have been fantastic, instead we have manifesto directing how and what we must consume while gaming.

>>53884009
>Vampires don't smell

Unless they've got some variation of vampirism that does make them smell legitimately awful... I mean, there are several flaws that mention stuff like that.

>Smell of the Grave (1pt. Flaw)
>You exude an odor of dampness and newly turned earth, which no amount of scents or perfumes will cover. Mortals in your immediate presence become uncomfortable, so the difficulties of all Social rolls to affect mortals increase by one.

>Stench (1pt. Flaw) (Nosferatu-only)
>Most Nosferatu pick up a certain odor, but you stink so bad even your Clan-mates find you hard to be close to. Your presence is preceded by your stench, removing two die from all Stealth rolls.

Also, Samedi are mentioned as being very smelly. It's part of their Bloodline's weakness; they don't just look like corpses, they smell like they've been rotting in a swamp for a few weeks.

And while "regular" vampires themselves don't really smell of anything, they'll still smell of whatever they're wearing or have been around.

So a vamp that has his haven in the fucking sewer will obviously smell like shit (and that's like 90% of all Nosferatu, if we're talking VtM). The smell might not stick to the vamp's skin itself, but it will stick to the gunk clinging to their bodies and to their clothes and any items in their possession.

>>53891821
I'm not a Bruccato Fan anon, I don't even own M20 yet (But I'm planning to buy the edition when it will come in my own language in October) but I have previous editions of Mage.

Using an explanation for a flaw to criticize his work is stupid, I found it to be an "ok" explanation to describe a bigot, how would you describe one?

Also being progressive=/being leftist

>>53891907
>Using an explanation for a flaw to criticize his work is stupid,

The flaw was just one very minor example of the much larger problem of Phil's inability to organize and concisely explain either rules or setting material. The politics, while pervasive and often offensive, just makes matters worse.

>Also being progressive=/being leftist

The terms are very often used interchangeably, including by Phil. It's also not a defense to so obviously and crudely injecting any politics into M20, regardless of political persuasion. M20 was supposed to be a update and polish to a well-loved ttprg, not a vanity project for an aging and near destitute game author.

Simply, we're not picking on Phil just because he used a goofy Game of Thrones reference. My god, I wish that was the only thing wrong with the book and supplements.

I hope you enjoy M20 when it's translated. If the translation is accurate, and you understand the largely American political references, you'll then appreciate why Phil (and Rich) have been the subject of so much criticism, including on the mostly sycophantic OPP forums.

There was an nWoD book, mage, I think, that mentioned creatures that existed *inside* the gauntlet. Summoning them out was possible, but they sort of detonated immediately.

Anyone know what the book was?

>>53892608
Nevermind, found it. Summoners, page 61. If anyone spots any others, wouldn't mind a (you) out of the deal. Ta.

>>53877918
I was thinking of making a mage game based around a small college town, with a small liberal arts college being a secret haven for a chantry.

(It'd be a bit like GURPS IOU)

>>53892679
>Nevermind, found it. Summoners, page 61. If anyone spots any others, wouldn't mind a (you) out of the deal. Ta.

I don't have my books handy at work, but I believe there's a small reference to the gauntlet creatures in the Awakening 2e corebook.

I also recall a discussion about those creatures in relation to Pangaeans after the release of Dark Eras. You might also want to look at Dark Eras: The Sundered World.

>>53884370
Thats owod Changling anon is talking about nwod Changling 1e vs 2e