>PCs are losing a fight >"Shit, we never should have

>>53872344
That's intimidate.

>Enemies
>Surrendering ever or offering us to surrender
Man, I wish games like that existed, all combats are to the bitter end

Last one were 30 scouts (odd number, I know) against our group, we were caught off guard (the one in charge of the guard fucking decided to sleep even we told the player don't to be a fucking dick). Thank god I rolled well and we all woke up on time, still some people didn't have the equipment ready. In the end we won, but thwere were moments in where we thought we were going to die, and the fuckers didn't even try to escape or surrender. I don't like games like this, it feels like a videogame

I find enemies who fight to the death all the time the weirdest fucking thing. 99% of enemies I run either try and flee (most animals do this) or try and bargain for their life if they think they're gonna die.

Only shit like mindless undead aways fight to the bitter end. Even a devil will try and bargain for their life a lot of the time.

>>53872872
>Man, I wish games like that existed

I for one don't after playing in both version.
It's terribly slow.
I am okay with diplomacy prior to combat but once guns are drawn, it's a death match.

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>>53872937
>I find enemies who fight to the death all the time the weirdest fucking thing. 99% of enemies I run either try and flee (most animals do this) or try and bargain for their life if they think they're gonna die.
>Only shit like mindless undead aways fight to the bitter end. Even a devil will try and bargain for their life a lot of the time.

I really wish more GMs understood this concept. I hate my group seeing me as a Machiavellian mastermind because my NPCs do things like "run away when they're losing the fight".

>>53872988
Then again in depends on the campaign.
I can take lots of intrigue and cowardice even during combat in a city investigation game but not in a kill or be killed campaign set in the wilderness.

Have enemies try to surrender more often, have bandits or highwaymen negotiate before a battle begins so that the party knows what diplomacy looks.

>>53872937
>>53873020
It's weird how many players get salty from this too. I don't even do it as often as I logically should. Animals run when injured for more then a quarter of their health, bandits and other thugs flee when half their forces are gone, undead, constructs, cultists and people that are being forced into combat fight to the end.

I've still had players call me out on this.

A question about dungeons. How do you design your dungeons so that PCs can fight groups of mobs, without the rest of the dungeon hearing battle noises and running over to gang up the PCs?

>>53873113
>It's weird how many players get salty from this too
Maybe because they come from games in if you don't kill your enemies you don't get an ounce of XP, I've been in some games like that, even if you overwhelm your opponents and beat them, if they escape, boom, no XP at all. Fucking silly.

>>53873129
System? I assume correctly D&D? Don't worry, DC increases +1 for every 10 ft away from the source, +5 if wooden door, +10 if stone wall. Add all that is is not that easy to hear stuff if you're a corridor and a room away.

>>53873709
I know from a mechanics-wise perspective. But how do you justify the fact the enemies all can't hear clashing of swords 1 hallway away. The "reality" of the situation is my problem.

>>53873754
Longer hallways.
More doors / small unimportant rooms.
Something to throw off the sound (aka cloth or chains hanging from the ceiling in the halls).

>>53873754
Make the dungeon louder. Underground river. Party going on in the deepest chamber. Blacksmiths banging away. Dire moles loudly mating in nearby tunnels. Whatever.

>>53873113
Shit, I'll have bandits flee from losing a couple of guys if I think they're tenderfoots or the PCs kill the first few with no meaningful harm very quickly and violently.

>>53873604
In a dungeon crawling type of campaign, how do you give XP if not for # of enemies killed?

>>53873604
"Awarding Experience
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game characters advance in level by defeating monsters, overcoming challenges, and completing adventures—in so doing, they earn experience points (XP for short). Although you can award experience points as soon as a challenge is overcome, this can quickly disrupt the flow of game play. It's easier to simply award experience points at the end of a game session—that way, if a character earns enough XP to gain a level, he won't disrupt the game while he levels up his character. He can instead take the time between game sessions to do that."

Defeating them not killing them. XP from only murder is essentially a houserule and bad gming.

>>53872344
>Are you sure you want to say this? It sounds like intimidation attempt, and can piss them off even more.

They can think that succesful roll can do everything. Or they can have shitty social skills. Or not taking game serious. Or just braindead stupid.

>>53874010
Amount of treasure successfully hauled to the surface.

>>53874010
Defeat doesn't have to mean kill

>>53874010
Depending on the system, let them level up / give them some xp that you feel is appropriate after each session.

This makes it so you don't need to tally down every encounter / accomplishment.

>>53874016
Them getting away isn't defeating them. On the other hand, capturing them and bringing them to justice is. Point being, if they're capable of returning to their ways on the very next day, you've only mildly inconvenienced them.

Do you think the king would pay the bounty if you went back saying "oh I made the robber baron run away for a day, monies plox nao"?

>>53872344
This.
>>53872372
Same shit

>>53873039
This! But don't have bandits do the "yer money or your life" type thing right away.

Or, have shopkeepers barter with players- "I've got this fresh in from my supplier, and because of the great quality, it'll cost you a bit extra. But, if you give me [dosh amount] right now, I'll sharpen it, and all the weapons of your party for free."

Or have hostage situations. "Take another fucking step and I'll kill him. Any of you move a muscle and he's dead. I want [x, y,z]."
Be sure to minimalize rollplay in these situations, because that's just not fun.

>>53874140
Depends on your goals. If, for example, your mission is to recover a hostage or some filthy lucre, getting the defenders to fuck off is probably a sufficient defeat.

>>53873020
>I hate my group seeing me as a Machiavellian mastermind because my NPCs do things like "run away when they're losing the fight".
Its because you are taking the loot and experience away. Which is everything the party strives for.

You have to find a balance from reward and reality if you know the balance post it, I don't know it

>>53873709
>Add all that is is not that easy to hear stuff if you're a corridor and a room away.
Damn, D&D is retarded. That's not how sound works at all.

>>53874140
I remember how in a game one of the PCs listened to bandit leader that was kind of trying to expropriate money from the group. And after the speech ended he jumped on him and cut him half with one attack. He also asked master to give him a chance to describe the result.

After that all other bandits started running and didn't stop until they reached neighbouring kingdom where they returned to honest work and a couple of them even became monks at a temple of some good god.

>>53874140
I disagree. Unless you never mae contact with them at all, or they fled on the first round before you could take your actions, you have at least performed actions against them that made them abandon the conflict. I tend to count that as "defeating" them.

Now, this may not complete the quest (especially if the quest is "catch these assholes"), but quest XP and monster XP are different.

>>53874254
In D&D moving at light speed makes you an easier target to attacks.
My current char moves faster than most modern bullets and arrows still hit me.

>>53873854
>Topic has absolutely nothing to do with D&D
>"lol just stop playing D&D"

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>>53874337
>My current char moves faster than most modern bullets

Explain how.

Exp should be based on the encounter. If you feel the group fought to win. You consider the encounter passed, and give them the appropriate experience for the encounter at the end of the session.

If they just keep running from fights without even trying, then you give them no exp

>>53874387
What if they bypassed the encounter via guile rather than force of arms?

>>53874471
I would give them full exp as well if it was creative. Half the exp if it was with the generic intimidation attempt

What do you think anyway? Should exp be given based on encounter as opposed to "enemies defeated/killed".

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>>53874498
>Half the exp if it was with the generic intimidation attempt

>>53874498
I say award XP for victories and achievements, whether they involve killing opponents or not.

>>53874518
My group tries to intimidate everyone with the same trick, its boring.

>>53874340
Have you tried turning your computer off and on again. It usually works for most problems.

>>53874498
Honestly I'm closer to the "ignore XP, level everyone up when it seems appropriate" school of thought, but in principle yeah I'd have the XP be the reward for achieving your goals despite the obstacles in general rather than strictly per enemy eliminated.

>>53874539
What trick is that?

>>53874384
Stacking speed in 3.PF isn't exactly high level optimization.

xeph race +30 9 rounds/day (competence)
quick +10 (base)
animal devotion +15 1/day (sacred)
speed of thought +10 (insight)
monk 9 +30 (enhancement)
+10 dark template
+10 feral template
x1.5 shadow template

925/run action

>>53874600
They got a flaming skull, then attached it to a chain. Then use ventriloquism to pretend the skull is talking, they use it to pretend its the grim reaper incarnated, or to scare animals with the fire (that doesn't actually burn, its just an illusion).

It was a sacred item they were meant to recover for a local tribe, but they decided to steal it instead, and are using it to intimidate the pursuers.

It was nice at first, after like 10 repeaters I feel like I have to break that skull.

>>53874384
>>53874684
And by RAW, more movement speed doesn't give you AC bonuses. (Which I think it does, so I give a +1 AC bonus per 30ft of movement in a round. It leads to interesting , but hilarious situations where two fighters literally dance around each other before striking. Swordsmen need to practice their footwork. )

>>53873113
>>53873965
I like to set a percentage of about 25% casualties to start making break-checks at, with different values for the quality, cohesion and bravery of the men in question.

>>53874848
Iron Heroes had a class (The harrier) that worked around moving fast and getting bonuses to it, stuff like:
For every 5 ft you get +1 to AC (one feature), +1 to hit (another feature), +1 to damage (a third feature). He also got even better progression than monk at speed.
You eventually could flank with yourself, have 1/4 your speed as "5ft free movement" so you could move like 15ft and still full attack or not provoke.
I reached 14th level in there and I got a feature that basically was make 3 attacks at full BaB as long as I moved all my speed without crossing for squares I already been in that turn.

Prestty awesome when you realize you get another feature that allows you to spider climb so you can move everywhere and always get full bonuses and 3 attacks.

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>>53874726
>they decided to steal it instead, and are using it to intimidate the pursuers
>they use it to pretend its the grim reaper incarnated

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>>53873113
>Animals run when injured for more then a quarter of their health, bandits and other thugs flee when half their forces are gone, undead, constructs, cultists and people that are being forced into combat fight to the end.

I really like AD&D morale rules for on-the-spot judgements like this.

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>>53875046
These posts trigger my PTSD by reminding how much loops you had to jump through as a martial to be even remotely relevant. Goddamnit the pain, when will it end.

>>53874229
>loot
The bandits you just finished pacifying probably don't keep all of their loot on their personas. Wilderness check, find their encampment, loot that instead.
>experience
Even D&D gives you XP if you just "defeat" and not outright kill an enemy.

>>53875159
See but in Iron Heroes (Basically a martial-only* prototype for 4e built on the 3.5 chassis) those are all base class features.

*there's one optional caster class and it's explicitly not balanced against the other classes

>>53875159
Oh yeah, Iron heros was was "martial focused D&D" with 9 martials and 1 caster, the caster was still way better than all the martials, and the monsters were still pretty much hard level to martials even though all martial clases were way better than 3.PF martial classes

But it was fun, another player had a dude that could make as many attacks as he wanted as long as he rolled a crit (he used a falchion with imp crit so 15+ gave him an extra attack).

>>53873129
>without the rest of the dungeon hearing battle noises and running over to gang up the PCs?
In D&D, I leave that up to the PCs to figure out. If they want to hide their presence they'll be making Stealth checks, casting quiet spells with Silent Spell, casting the Silence spell down hallways that enemies might be around, etc. If they don't, shit gets heard down the hallway or whatever and further enemies take the time to buff up, set an ambush, etc.

My enemies are moderate smart, the players' job is to be smarter. Failing that, be stronger.

>>53873020

It's weird how "cash in and sell out", the popular method of human conflict resolution since time immemorial, just isn't on people's mental radar.


>picture
>what a DICK

>>53872344
Would they have killed them if they failed the diplomacy check? Could've made that clearer if that was the case:

>"I'LL DRINK FROM YOUR SKULL!"
>"Oh shit, I'm so sorry." (success)
>"That may be the case, but nonetheless an apology is in order. Your worldly possessions shall suffice."
>Further diplomacying may or may not ensue, idk, what do you feel like DM?

>>53874067
why not just use milestone leveling, its way easier and faster and lets the DM control the game a bit better

>>53874140
>Them getting away isn't defeating them.
okay napoleon, lololololol

>>53875315
If it's DnD you get spells with XP costs that don't work if you use this rule.

I know, I know, "have you tried not playing DnD"

>>53875340
no good edition of DnD has XP costs though

>>53875247
You do know how stealth works in the game, right? Unless they can literally kill them all in one round, it's impossible to do that.

>>53874599
>ignore XP, level everyone up when it seems appropriate
my life became infinitely easier when I started doing this and I have not met a single person who disagrees and is worth playing with.

>>53875340
Is it possible to substitute XP costs with gold costs?

>>53875340
I can't think of a single spell with an XP cost you should actually let PCs learn/cast.

>>53875452
Perhaps, if there are gold costs for slaves of different levels, one could determine a fair cost by subtracting the cost of a level 1 slave from that of a slave of a level obtainable with the experience consumed by the spell (interpolation may be necessary)

>>53875740
How did this immediately turn to slave magic

>>53874726
There's nothing wrong with a bit of creative thinking.
Though I'm little disappointed by distinct lack of Sithrak references.

>>53875907
Because abusing masses of the weak for our own ends is what got mankind where we are today.

>>53875907
It can be slave magic if you really want it to be, but what im proposing is trying to pull out a gold cost for A Person Having EXP

>>53874726
Have the tribe send someone else after them to get the sacred skull of Sithrak back (I don't care what it's actually called, it's the skull of Sithrak now).

>>53875740
>>53875907
If you can burn other people's xp for xp costs, it's technically possible to buy up and use slaves' xp for them, resulting in a gold:xp ratio for spells that use xp.

Actually ripping out people's souls and draining them of their memories and experiences to fuel spells/make magical items is pretty damn evil though.

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>>53872872
30 is an even number anon.

>>53874010
IIRC AD&D gave you 1XP per 1GP of loot/treasure found and sold.

>>53876361
Yeah, my intention was to take the cost from that hypothetical but assume it is instead spent on mystical crystals and weird reagents and so on.

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>People in my group don't know how to make efficient characters and don't know how to work as a team
>one of our players made a fighter who put all he could into casting magic because ''it's not what fighters typically do'' instead of powering his combat style
>DM only tolerates us because he has nothing better to do
>it's very rare we actually win an encounter on our own
>most of the time the DM has to have NPC's come in and save us so that the story can progress

You don't know hell.

>>53876483

are you legitimately retarded anon?

>>53876663
Is the roleplay any good at least ?

>>53876577
It's an interesting idea. Going from the Pathfinder SRD (Which is the only one i have access to at the moment.) A Hireling, Trained (mercenary warrior) costs 3sp per day. Using the Bandit from the monster manual (?) as a base, it rewards 200exp, but is level 2. So if hiring a Bandit costs 6sp, that gives us 6sp:200exp, or 1sp:33.3exp.

I would adjust these numbers a bit, myself, but there's the base I came up with.

>>53876483
It's an odd number for a group of scouts

>>53876663
Man, I can get playing against racial stereotypes, but if you play against your class then you should've just picked a different class.

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>>53876715
>>53876754
>30 scouts
>(odd number, I know)
Anon...
>>53876754
>It's an odd number for a group of scouts
Anon, just because scouts don't understand the concept of odds and evens doesn't mean you can't.

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>>53876820

>>53876820
...so you're aware that the term "odd" is being used in its meaning of "unusual" and are just sticking to the joke, right? This is sometimes hard to tell over the internets.

>>53876908
Joke explainers should be flayed

>>53876908
odd numbers aren't unusual. Literally half of the numbers are odd.

>>53876820
>>53876894
>>53876908
Sorry for derailing the thread. I'm just tired, bored, and lonely.
>My players never understood diplomacy >sessions often devolved into infighting.
>>53876949
>>53876958
Kek

>>53872344

If you're playing D&D after a certain point most players are going to feel like their magical gear is basically a part of their character especially if they aren't playing a spell casting class, so if they lose most of it they might as well just let that character go and roll a new one.

>>53877015
The players said "give us all your stuff," not the enemies they encountered.

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>>53876982
>I'm just tired, bored, and lonely.

>>53877078

Oh, I thought it meant they made a diplomacy roll and the bandits offered to let them live if they dropped their stuff, and the players thought being offered a chance to surrender was a failure of a roll.

>>53877143
Could very well have. The all caps implied to me that it was players, given the op's frustration with his players.

>>53872872
>the one in charge of the guard fucking decided to sleep even we told the player don't to be a fucking dick

One of the telltale signs that the adventure will suck. IME the earliest sign is one guy being extra enthusiastic about his character in a belligerent way, coming off cocky, or mentioning something along the lines of "if x then you can't stop me", often during character creation. A sign appearing next is what happened here, where a player showed he wasn't a team player or otherwise didn't care. Everything else escalates so far that it can't be ignored and by then the game is in the handbasket.

I've learned to watch for that first sign. I let them create their characters, then tell them we'll postpone the adventuring part. If the guy wasn't connected to anyone else in the group I tell him I don't have time to do it, but get the rest of the group in. If he's connected, I deep six the adventure entirely, but say I might run a different one. Anyone showing interest will get "can you bring 'That Guy'?", if they say "yes", they're out.

>>53877122
Yes.
>>53876982
>be running a session of pf it was my first time and I didn't know any better
>had 11 players
>on average would have about 6 show up each session, only did sessions in person
>group of friends all picked characters
>they go to a temple or something and find an evil spooky magic sacrificial dagger
>party is torn over what to do with it
>a few sessions later the ranger, played by my friend who straddles the line between "that guy" and "not that guy," steels the dagger from the bag of another party member
>splits the party
>travels far away to hide the dagger
>hasn't told the party what he's doing or why
>druid player tracks down the hiding place while ranger is on his way back to the main group
>main group is doing some kind of investigative work in some town
>pissed at ranger player for throwing away what was clearly questitem.exe
>ranger returns
>arguments ensue
>druid returns with the dagger
>ranger spazzes out and tries to kill the druid
>end session
I told them to figure out a way to resolve this without killing each other.

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>>53874190
>Don't have the bandits do the "yer money or your life" type thing right away.

This. I had a hilarious moment where I had the party come across a naked human male just walking down the road, looking haggard as fuck. This was right after a jaunt into one of the local dungeons, and I had made sure to give them some other loot to replace their old armor, so they gave their old stuff that they were going to sell to the guy in exchange for him agreeing to basically join up with the party and be a lootwagon/meatshield. He agreed readily and took the (relative to the party) cheap armor and put it on.

They went to the town and spent a night in the inn, and woke up to find the fucker gone, along with all the gold they had on them.

They were fucking livid. It was hilarious how easily they fell for this guy's plan - I had expected them to try to detect evil or check if he was lying or do the murderhobo thing and just leave him there, but all it took was a little prodding from the NPC and he made off with basically everything.

>>53877370
You sound like a complete bitch.

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>>53876483

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>>53874140
Terrible analogy, in that case a bounty calls specifically for the death or capture of an individual(s), while "defeating" someone in battle just means to win said battle and claim the desired objectives. Not killing the people involved doesn't mean they weren't defeated.
Lets say theres two people in a duel to first blood, and one of them loses, that guy is defeated. He wasn't killed, or slain, or shrugged off the mortal coil, or kicked the bucket. He was still defeated tho.

>>53875097

Fuck yeah. The number of times the party I DMd for yelled "They're running away! WITH OUR TREASURE?!!?" (they had the habit of counting whatever the "bad guys" had as theirs even before they got it, fuming whenever an enemy drank a potion or used a charge from a wand)

Good times, good times...

>>53878516
Imagine being a bandit and the person you were going to rob is already fighting with their friends over who gets to keep your gold.

It'd be a bit unnerving, to tell the truth.

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>>53875097
The morale rules in 5E are also decent (if only any DM followed them).

>>53879162
Shouldn't that be a Charisma saving throw, at least in the case of the leader of a group making it? Getting a group to stand and fight where they might otherwise turn and run seems like a big part of what charismatic leadership is about.

>>53873030
Wildermess games should be more so. Since if you win the fight but get hurt then it could lead to death from infection.

>>53879162
>The wiser you are, the more likely you are to fight to the death.
I question the intelligence of this system.

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>>53875097
AD&D is so needlessly convoluted.

>>53879806
Nothing to do with realism and more to do with expectation and the fun that comes from having your expectation met.

>>53876663
Sounds like the gm is failing to present good encounters .
Maybe 1 goblin with epilepsy would be more your speed.
But joking aside, Mr gm needs to lover the cr

>>53877370
>hey let's postpone
>gets new group
>hey let's postpone
>gets new group
>hey let's postpone
>gets new group
>hey let's postpone
>gets new group
>hey let's postpone
>gets new group

>>53880155
I guess in this case Wisdom is used to demonstrate the character is level-headed enough to not lose his shit at the first signal of danger. Like:
>oh, shit that guy just ripped one of ours apart
>okay, okay, calm down, we still have this.
>That guy was a pussyass faggot anyway, we are much better fighters than him

>>53878701
New intimidate tactic found.

>>53880356
Lower *autocorrect

>>53874010
Originally in D&D, the exp you got from enemies was a pittance, so them escaping wasn't a big deal. You got a vast majority of your exp from loot.

All else, you get exp for defeating your enemies. How you do that doesn't really matter. Once they're out of the fight, be it dead, ran off, knocked out, or convinced to join you, they're defeated.

>>53880155
The save isn't about how "wise" you are, it's about how susceptible you are to fear, which is why it's a Wisdom save. Wiser people tend to be less afraid or, at least, more in-control of their fear.

>>53872344
>How do I get my players to understand diplomacy?
run a game wherein it's easy to get seriously hurt and it takes a long time to heal. I guarantee that during that recovery period between combat encounters the PC's are going to be extremely diplomatic.

I personally suggest any of the 40k RPGs for this role.

>Shit I'm at one health! Hey GM! how do I heal?
> a *heal* check can recover, like, 3 health.
> That's not much, how do I get the rest back?
> About 5 weeks of bed rest. Maybe less if someone's there to do a *heal* check on you during that time.
> FUCK ME! No more killing shit for a while.

>>53880155
>>53879600
Wisdom has always been a misnomer in D&D. It has nothing to do with real-life Wisdom. D&D Wisdom is awareness, intuition, and instinct. It is the Constitution of the mind. Understood this way, it represents fight or flight better than Intelligence or Charisma. Charisma is supposed to be an uncommon saving throw. Charisma saving throws so far have only been called for to resist spiritual displacement, such as banishment and possession.

>>53872872
>he doesnt have a chart of enemy morale to tell you how far enemies will fight
usually i place tiny reminders next to the enemy profiles like "fights to the death", "fights until wounded", or "fights until X number of allies are slain" and so on

>>53872937
op's enemies weren't fighting to the death though, they were clearly winning. Unless those fuckers got rolled a 20 they shouldn't have expected them to surrender

>>53872344
I read your example and my first thought is you mangled the entire thing into making it sound like that after you autoattacked the party like a random encounter in FF4.

>Wait, those guys look like they're with the empire. We'll ask them
>ATTTAAAAAAAAAAAAAACK!
>I try diplomacy
>They're already hostile so you can only say a few words
>Come on maybe we can try to talk our way out of this?
>LAY DOWN YOUR ARMS AND SURRENDER YOUR LIVES, WE WILL PROMISE A QUICK DEATH!
>...... fine then. I fucking shoot back.
>HOW DO I GET MY PLAYERS TO UNDERSTAND DIPLOMACY?

>>53880790
Although they're going to wonder why you stuck them with three more encounters on the way to the inn.

>>53878701
Why would bandits have gold, though? Being poor kinda is the entire point behind starting a career in banditry.

>>53880701
Also, loot carried by monsters was a pittance compared to loot stashed in their lair, reinforcing the expected style of play.

>>53872872
Reign has some interesting fluff that encourages that. If you kill someone who has genuinely surrendered then they will haunt you for the rest of your life, you can see and hear them but no one else can. Of course mostly they will try and get you killed by standing in your face during combat or maybe just drive you mad by yelling and screaming everytime you try to sleep.
It pays to let people surrender or call for it when you can because no one want that shit.

>>53880934
I'm just thinking that, for example, a very charismatic hobgoblin officer should be more likely to be able to make his section hold against the onslaught of the player characters than an officer with a less forceful personality. I'll acknowledge that doesn't fit the usual definition of what a "saving throw" is, but it seems like it should be a factor.

>>53874229
Check out the story of Shane the Shy. It's long but insightful.

My own advice: you should consider XP to be won by PCs if (in your own opinion as DM) the enemy has been "neutralized". An enemy that retreats into the forest with plans to attack again has not been defeated; an enemy that throws down their arms and runs away, has.

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>>53881536
Forgot to attach it.

>>53881483
Yeah, that makes sense. I wanted an opportunity to sperg about Wisdom. I can see the leader's Charisma modifier to the saving throw, kind of like a paladin's aura. It's an optional rule and all it does is determine NPC behavior that the DM would've had to adjudicate anyways, so no harm done so long as we are somewhere vaguely within the realms of common sense.

>>53881536
>An enemy that retreats into the forest with plans to attack again has not been defeated; an enemy that throws down their arms and runs away, has.
I disagree.
If the enemy has to flee, surrender, or is otherwise incapacitated that it would require another initiative count you should count them as defeated.
If the enemy flees for reinforcements, have them do that -before- the combat and make it a chase scene instead.
Though I guess this doesn't work in D&D where levels that characters can't see are more important gauges of threat than numbers of appearance.

>>53881577
Besides charisma affects morale of hirelings PCs have, so it should work the same way for NPCs.

>>53872872
I respect a fellow who can beat the odds.

>>53872937

Hell I go one step further. Animals (and as a result animistic monsters) won't even attack unless provoked or really hungry. Most animals and some monsters will also run the second a gun is fired if I'm rocking the power fantasy, of course the downside is something meaner might just come investigate that boom.

Predators (and as a result most monsters) will run the second they think they will expend more energy than the party is worth or might be injured badly. A wound is all well and good for a party member, but a busted leg or a cut eye is fatal for a woodland critter if only because it will make hunting all the more difficult. Hence why most predators might just sit back and observe the party unless they're pack hunters and outnumber them (another reason hirelings rock).

And of course people will flee or yield when appropriate, especially if someone gets dropped first round first action and its immediately apparent that they're out of their league. Though you push the right buttons (look at afgan green on blue attacks if you want some inspiration) and you can get someone to willingly fight to the death.

I've legit never had a player get bent out of shape over not being able to stab another wolf. I have however had players start tracking and hunt down a griffin out of pure hate before though. Player motivated goals are great.

>>53872344
If your PCs are losing why exactly do they think they'd be able to get the enemy to utterly surrender?

>>53872344
Stop playing with retarded autistic rollplayer ruleslawyers.

Seriously, if that player does that shit again, throw some fucking dice at his autistic fuckface.

>>53874848
>And by RAW, more movement speed doesn't give you AC bonuses
There's a feat that gives you a small dodge bonus to AC if you take a Move action in Pathfinder, but otherwise? Nah.

>>53885299
Good rules to follow generally. I'd leave room for that one animalistic monster that bears an unnatural, unrelenting malice towards the party (and humanoids in general), just 'cuz it could have some impact in a world where that's not normal.

My enemies would regularly try to escape if they lost 25-50% of their forces.

Pissed my players off. Because they wanted to pin them all down.

They also had a habit of trying to kidnap players. Not sure why I'm himdsight. My non-module games tend to be fairly chaotic so maybe it's an attempt to get the players to go in a singular direction.

>>53885496
Oh yeah totally, I've used something being much more aggressive than normal as quest hooks before.

>Why would these seemingly well fed wolves just throw themselves at us?
You know, now that is a good question isn't it?

>>53873604
My GM used to jokingly say that our EXP was running away whenever our opponents ran away and we didn't catch them

He gave more EXP if we used diplomacy to avoid encounters anyway

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>>53885299
>I have however had players start tracking and hunt down a griffin out of pure hate before though

>>53872344
>I rolled really well!
"There were high penalties because of the situation you're in."
Over and done with.

It's not hard if you're a halfway decent DM.

>>53887570
Pretty much, though mine enjoyed picking things up and dropping them to get them nice and tender. It flew away with a horse and all attached gear and supplies that weren't destroyed in the drop.

Holy shit were they mad.

>>53874229
>loot
Just say that the bandits drop their weapons and run, or make it that there's something more valuable like a wagon of loot nearby that they have to leave. Looting every single corpse to shift through the items is silly anyways.

>xp
Give XP at the end of the session based on what tasks they completed.

>>53885299
>but a busted leg or a cut eye is fatal for a woodland critter if only because it will make hunting all the more difficult.
In D&D hit points are an abstraction, and as long as the animal has at least 1 HP left it hasn't suffered from wounds that would hinder it or become infected. As long as you are in the positives you don't suffer any penalties to your skill use or attacks.

>>53888131
>Not treating creatures at half HP as bleeding out

>Not having an infection table.

>>53888131
I don't play d&d, you'd think by my mention of specific injuries you'd be able to tell that. Besides the whole 1hp perfectly fine but no plot armor remaining, 0 hp oh god no stuff the guts back inside dichotomy is ass.

>>53888131
>In D&D hit points
suck


That's really all you can say about any D&D/PF damage system. It fucking sucks. It works if you're too lazy to, or not interest into, finding a system that handles wounds in a way that makes sense and isn't entirely disconnected from the story narrative or a punch in your suspesion of disbelief's dick.

>>53888320
It works literally like a video game.

>>53888292
>the whole 1hp perfectly fine but no plot armor remaining, 0 hp oh god no stuff the guts back inside dichotomy is ass.
Not really. It skips lengthy recovery periods completely, making the play fast paced and dynamic. No-one wants to be forced to take a half year off to recuperate after a single dungeon delve.

>>53888351
>>53888292
>>53888320
There is a variant rule for 5e and possibly earlier D&D systems that splits the meat points you want with regular hit points at a ratio of 4 to 1 hit points to vitality points

>>53888351
I've seen a single wound system that took that long to heal. Most take weeks, a month or 2 at most to heal drastic injuries (often tied to a roll or 2 so healthier people tend to heal quicker).
When used properly it adds an organic time tension to goals. Do you push on bandaged and bruised, or do you just let the bandit king's trail go cold while you recover?
When ignored it's a hip hopping time skip away, what does everyone do while people heal up at home base? A great time for roleplay or organization/holding operations.

But you're one of those epic sagas take 48 hours instead of years fags aren't you?

>>53888385
Better than nothing I suppose.

>>53872872
Eh... surrendering enemies have their own problems. Though I agree that if they're getting slaughtered, they should run the fuck away.

>>53888452
I want to play big damn heroes saving the world, not a bunch of shell-shocked cripples.

>>53888452
Yeah, it is. It makes sense and keeps with the spirit of OD&D. That way you can rule that criticals take from both pools and normal attacks only hit vitality when HP is gone. I'd probably also rule that vitality points regenerate much slower through rest and "healing surges" don't affect it, but that's me.

Let it also be known that I would prefer to use GURPS but I was outvoted.

>>53888320
You're not wrong, but I've yet to find a wound system that doesn't turn the game into rocket tag where initiative is the best stat.

>>53888452
>>53888594

You sound people who never play much tabletop in real life and waste most of your time crafting boring "realism" theories that also won't work out in real life either.

>>53888320
It supposed to be a game of pretend, fueled by acting and yarn spinning, not a replacement for your sad loner life.

>>53888666
You sound like a retard who doesn't know how to read, the way I do things is supported by the Fifth Edition Dungeon Masters Guide, have you read it or are you just fucking retarded?

>>53874684
>925/run action
154 fps is pretty damn slow for a bullet.

>>53888582
Then do your thing, and and stop bringing your opinions and smearing them all over other people's things, ya vitriolic duff.

I like games where the players have to think about getting into fights at natural paces instead of an advised amount of combat encounters per day in order to balance classes through player specific resource management.

I also like the option for something serious, but not as serious as player death being a negative physical consequence. Oh no I lost XX hp in that fight, whoopty fucking do. Shit gets serious when an arm breaks.

>>53888666
You sound like someone who is insecure about their opinions and other people's tastes.

>>53888710
The way you would things in theory, you meant? It's clear you're not running a game at the moment.

>>53875413
I do the same, I level the party up when they accomplish an established milestone. Makes people act a little more reasonably.

>>53888752
>Then do your thing, and and stop bringing your opinions and smearing them all over other people's things, ya vitriolic duff.
Listen to your own advice.

>>53888762
No I'm running one for 4 family members, but you can keep projecting all you want.

>>53888781
Bitch I didn't start this, don't tell me to get off my own yard.

>>53888775
You know that a lot of systems outside of the d20 bubble have wounds or otherwise non hp based damage systems right?

>>53888786
>I'd probably also rule that vitality points regenerate much slower through rest and "healing surges" don't affect it
>I'd probably
>I'd
Soooo not at the moment, after all?

>>53888789
Yes you did, when you started smearing your opinions all over other people's things. This is not "your" yard.

>>53888889
I stated how I handle a system agnostic situation and one of you dipwads broke down the door and said "nuh huh not in my d&d you don't".

Clearly wasn't fucking talking to you.

>>53888869
Did I ever once say that I was using that rule at the moment? No, I didn't, in fact they were all new to ttrpgs so I figured I'd go as vanilla as possible and tweak it as we go, if necessary.

So far, nobody has complained about hit points, so I haven't used the variant rule, nor the house rule that I made up literally in the post that you're quoting.

Does having a game ongoing preclude me from inventing new rules to go along with and enhance a concept I happen to like?

>>53888957
Why don't you go do your own thing then instead of bitching about abstract HP.

>>53888979
So you admit talking in theory not how it would go in actual play?

>>53889008
I fucking was dipshit.

>>53889040
So what if I am? What is wrong with theorizing? As it stands, I am going to introduce this to my players, when they want to make new characters, or we're done with the campaign, I don't think they'll have an issue with it.

>>53889048
Don't let the door hit you on your way out.

>>53889146
Golly you and your system are pathetic.

>>53889089
see
>>53888666

>>53889157
bye

>>53877812

Congrats on creating a few more paranoid murderhobos who won't hesitate to murder anyone they find even mildly suspicious.

>>53889159
I'm not seeing your point, I have a weekly game, and I'm the DM, so that statement doesn't apply to me.

>>53873020
It really depends on the length of a fight. If a fight only lasts for 3 to 5 rounds, NPCs played by me would seldom flee. You'll have to keep the passed time in mind. Being hit several times in 18 to 30 seconds might be a clear indication that fleeing would be the better option. However, a sword fighter might be full of adrenalin and only come to this realisation when it is already too late.

If someone sees how their troops are slaughtered, I will always let them try to flee the scene. If they are already engaged in combat they are more likely to die on the battlefield. I think engaging in a fight for some blows and fleeing after not even half a minute is unrealistic as well. You would most likely be dead before you know you are losing.

>>53872344
You should kill your players.

>>53874726

Is magic very rare in your world? Otherwise, you'd assume people were used to the idea of using illusions to make things seem scarier than they truly are.

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>>53877389
>>had 11 players

Jesus Christ and I thought coordinating 5 players was bad.

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>>53872872

Surrender is gone because DND shifted from being about strong but relatively normal people on adventures to being about fucking demigods and their pre-godhood escapades.

Negotiation with enemies is rare because combat is the assumed result of meeting someone who isn't an obvious friend. In old dnd, fighting was not a great outcome and involved a great deal of risk. Now there is NO RISK. If you play well and build your character well you pretty much don't lose combat according the suggested encounter charts in the DMG. This has warped player mentalities accordingly.

Furthermore, many many times I've gone onto /tg/ threads and seen DMs admit the PCs always win by design. You're all fucking disgraces to the hobby.

>>53885299
The flaw with you thinking is that so many D&D players think if something is there then it is there to be fought as a level appropriate threat. They don't consider that things run and barely consider non-combat as an option if they have have spotted a wild animal. May all the gods help you if it is something that can wipe the floor with the party but is non-hostile and doesn't speak, because they will try and fight that shit no matter what.

>>53896101
Many D&D players will outright RIOT if you make enemies flee or introduce something that they aren't expected to beat within three turns.

I don't know if it's because of 3.PF, or it's because of newbies getting into the hobby when their only experience with RPGs coming from shit like FF or DQ.

>>53873604
That is fucking ridiculous. You should get XP for resolving the encounter in your party's favor.

>>53872344
Play it like darkest dungeon
Fuck their shit up at every turn and make them fear getting into useless fights
Make them understand that an actual bad guy that THEY decided to attack has a very slim chance of letting them live even if they surrender and suck his dick afterward
Teach them that adversity and existance are one and the same

>>53901176
This kind of mentality doesn't work for D&D, where every class, every ability, and every rule is based on the premise of combat.

>>53872344
This thread again?

>>53901313
It works very easily if you give them a sanity(or stress) bar and make it very hard to heal. Like VERY hard.
Sure the rules encourage you to go around prancing like a retard starting fights and shit, but you can bet the first time one of the retards gets his sanity too low that he's gonna try and convince others to pussy out of fights
btw who even uses dnd anymore
do you people like to suffer

>>53874684
>stacking templates