Previous thread: >>53807482 >Pastebin: https://pas

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... and RPG.net's going to shit over the use of the word 'triggered' in an appropriate context in the V5 playtest. Good job, rpg.net. Good job. Reading the broken english line there, it seems less 'joke about the word triggered' and more 'bad translation into English'.

Hey OP, you fucked up. Samurai Jack is an Exalt, not a WoD/CofD character

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Discuss

>>53825455
Cancer.net will sperg out over anything. That's not anything new

>>53825474
That depends. He could be one of those Dark Heroes from Mirrors, which is kinda like Exalt-lite.

>>53825477
Who the fuck is writing this shit?

>>53825477
I'll explain it quite simply: The writers have a hard on for making Garou fucking evil

>>53825376
Jack is better modeled as an Exalted character. He's a bit too fast/strong/durable to be in Chronicles of Darkness.

>>53825500
I honestly wonder if there are any TTRPG players left on RPGnet.

>>53825641
I bailed when it became "tumblr but somehow more retarded" I'd assume the other sane people did too.

>>53825641
Are there any here?

>>53825660
I think that's an issue of tumblerites falling into everything.

How strong are BP 10 vampires compared to PU 10 werewolves?

>>53825672
RPG.net is a special case though.

Why do people only care about power levels?

I thought WoD wasn't solely focused on combat?

>>53825872
Not all violence is physical.

>>53825882
Sometimes people say mean things to monsters of legend on the internet.

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>>53825921
>Sometimes people say mean things to monsters of legend on the internet.

>sad werewolf

>>53825872
people are incapable of having a game without knowing what its power level is. And why people who like the highest power level thing are shitty people who don't play a real game like XYZ

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>>53825974

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I've always liked the Sorcerer books [Revised and Original] for the Old World of Darkness, since they captured the real occultic feel of Mage without the over the top power level. The Paths are interesting and the division of successes to alter effects on the fly is pretty flexible without being as strong as the Spheres.

I wish the mechanics were better though, it'd be a useful tool to run alongside Masquerade or Werewolf.

>>53826038
I just wish all the gamelines were balanced and equal

Like they should be. No reason not to be.

>>53826119
>No reason not to be.
Except for minor reasons like lore or setting flavor or any of that stuff.

>>53826102
I never liked Sorcerer, at least when compared to Mage.

Both gain their power from arcane knowledge and studying the arcane. Yet one is Static and the other is Dynamic, the latter being the more powerful of the two.

Why make an essentially weaker version of Mage? There is practically no difference regarding the source of their power.

>>53826164
Sorcerers don't piss off the universe by working their craft. Nor do they brute force their magic via an Avatar

>>53826119
>I just wish all the gamelines were balanced and equal
>Like they should be. No reason not to be.


Life ain't fair.

Some threats and monsters are worse than others.

Different gamelines have different themes and design priorities (e.g., Mage is about privilege and corruption of power).

>>53825672
RPG.net is actually run by SJWs and the easily offended. It's worse than them just stumbling into something.

>>53826190
>>53826164
I like Sorcerers, but they work better as a replacement to Mages then anything else. For instance, if I wanted to run a crossover chronicle, a slightly buffed Sorcerer Template would give me EVERYTHING I wanted to run with Vampires and Werewolves, without shitting all over everything. And they fit more with the Tremere and the Masassa War fluff by not being so OP they make the decision to become vampires utterly asinine.

I do include them in my own Mage games, but not using the Sorcerer rules, instead I just give them lists of Rotes instead of Spheres.

The notion of including one in a Vampire Chronicle has always appealed to me though. For instance once a DM was going to run a Victorian Vampire game, and I wanted to play as a Mage [because up until that point I had never played Mage]. However to make it work I would have had to have really really held back to avoid dominating the story.

A Sorcerer would have let me play into Hermeticism and Theosophy and so on as much as I desired, without the vast chasm of power shitting all over the game [but I didn't know of Sorcerers at the time, and it didn't matter since the game never ran]

>>53826102

Me too, they are awesome. I always saw them as the backbone of the traditions on mage. But i started with Revised when they dropped the Magick bullshit.

>>53826267
No I hated their fluff, they shouldn't be the backbone of anything and the idea that any True Mage could look upon sorcerers as anything more then half-formed abortions was ridiculous to me. They're shit in comparison.

They work much better as a replacement to Mage in crossover chronicles, if you employ every single "Make them stronger" rule option they give you and then give them a bit more too.

>>53826235
You realize that the Traditions are full of sorcerers, right? Awakened willworkers are rare individuals.

Mages are the privileged sorcerers.

>>53826349
Only in Revised, which also has shit fluff like the Avatar Storm and thus should be ignored anyway. That whole edition was a series of trying to tone down and step away from the original premise of Mage and make it some street-level crap.

>>53826299
Except it was always canon that the vast majority of magicians in the Traditions were sorcerers, not mages.

It's somewhat the same in Awakening.

>>53826372
Again, only as of Revised, and the fact that its canon there does not make it any more ridiculous of fluff. I mean just read Sorcerer Revised, they go through half the book telling you that no one, not even most Mages, can tell the difference between Sorcerers and Awakened, and that the two stand on mostly even footing, and then the entire last chapter is nothing but advise on how to run a campaign with the extremely low-powered Sorcerer rules.

No, the sorcerers should not be part of the Traditions. No, they are not hard to tell apart, any casual observer can quickly determine the difference.

So stupid.

>>53826299
The Order of Hermes label sorcerers as "eternal children"

That said, they're still the backbone of the Order. They outnumber true wizards 3 to 1 and only the more experiences mages can tell the difference.

>>53826421
Ummm, no. It's not stupid. Nobody bothers to tell the difference because it doesn't fucking matter.

They also flat out mention that sorcerers are inferior to mages in the same goddamn passage.

>>53826430
>only the more experiences mages can tell the difference.

Any one with Prime 1 can immediately tell they aren't Awakened. Any Mage who asks even the most basic of questions or demonstrations can tell.

A Sorcerer's effects RAW take several turns to cast, and are far smaller and far weaker then the same result with Sphere magick, and they don't cause paradox.

I'm well aware of the supposed fluff in Revised, but given its stupid ass fluff I've elected to ignore it.

>>53826421
>No, the sorcerers should not be part of the Traditions. No, they are not hard to tell apart, any casual observer can quickly determine the difference.

How? This isnt awakening in which mage just close their eyes and wank very very hard. Both have a series of ceremonies and/or instruments they gotta do with do their magic. Just that Mages advance more quickly in their power and flexibility.

But if i see hermtic sorcerer and hermetic mage and both chant in enochian and cast a fireball there isnt much difference a casual observer can quickly determine.

>>53826481
He's an idiot. Ignore him.

Sorcerers have always been heavily ingrained within Mage society. They're actually useful to have around..

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Here's something interesting

>>53826504
>>53826481
No, they've only been thus as of Revised. You can read the original Sorcerer book and it goes to great lengths to explain how "hedge mages" are looked down upon by the Awakened.

Just because their foci are superficially similar doesn't change the GIGANTIC gap in power, flexibility, scale, and effect between a Sorcerer and a Mage.

A Hermetic Adept will know dozens of spells, the strongest Sorcerer will likely know less then 10, its not hard to tell the difference when Arete 3 can throw a fireball in one turn that kills three people while the sorcerer is still preparing his, significantly weaker, fireball for three more turns.

If you invoke every single optional upgrade in Revised to buff up the Sorcerer template, you MIGHT be able to fool a casual observer, but again Prime would immediately reveal the distinction if the power gap somehow failed to.

I{m going to test V5 this weekend, what am I getting into?
Anyone here try it out yet?

>>53826546
No, you're right. Revised just has a better picture of sorcerers than the former.

It actually gives them meaning regarding occult societies.

>>53826546
The original Sorcerer is also the same supplement comparing Mages to sorcerers from D&D.
Apparently from their point of view Mages don't work at all for their magic, which is entirely preposterous.

True wizards are easily more academic and obsessive than mundane sorcerers.

>>53825376
Any particular reason you forgot to actually give the thread a subject, like say WoD General or Chronicles of Darkness General?

Some unnamed thread with a Samurai Jack pic is practically invisible in catalog view.

>>53826687
Is the the return of World of Fagness no one asked for.

>>53826687
>>53826729

chronicles of fagness is a total faggot

>>53826750
fag

>>53826577
That's the thing though, its still schizophrenic, because Sorcerer Revised spends the first half of its page count telling you nobody can tell the difference except autists obsessed with metaphysics, and yet that is so blatantly false that the book itself tells you in the second half of its pagecount that Sorcerers are so weak you may want to consider giving them several major power ups, and how even then you're better off having them fight ghouls and kinfolk then true supernatural templates.

Its silly. When I use Sorcerers in Mage, I make them outside the Traditions [or on the very periphery of them] and I ignore the rules given in favor of just making them Mages who only know Rotes, not Spheres.

What I'd like to do, is use Sorcerers [slightly upgraded] as a replacement template in a game of Vampire or Werewolf, because they balance much easier with a group of neonates then a True Mage does.

>>53826969
It would be easier to switch "can't tell the difference" with "don't care to tell the difference"

Problem solved.

>>53826859
fag

>>53825376
Samurai Jack (Dark Hero Version)

Virtue: Determined/Stoic
Vice: Wrath

Mental Attributes: Intelligence 4, Wits 6, Resolve 6
Physical Attributes: Strength 4, Dexterity 6, Stamina 4
Social Attributes: Presence 3, Manipulation 3, Composure 4

Mental Skills: Academics (Strategy) 3, Crafts 1, Computer 0, Medicine 1, Occult 2, Politics 1, Investigation 3, Science 2

Physical Skills: Athletics (Jumping) 7, Brawl (Neutralize) 6, Drive (Motorcycle) 2, Firearms 2, Larceny 3, Stealth (Ambush) 5, Survival (Hunting) 4, Weaponry (Katana) 7

Social Skills: Animal Ken 6, Empathy 3, Expression (Wisdom) 2, Intimidation 3, Persuasion 1, Socialize 0, Streetwise 0, Subterfuge 2

Merits: Area Of Expertise (Jumping, Katana), Common Sense, Danger Sense (Advanced), Direction Sense, Eye For The Strange, Fast Reflexes 3, Indomitable (Epic), Meditative Mind 4, Multilingual (Several), Professional Training 5 (Samurai: Athletics, Weaponry, Survival), Trained Observer 3, Virtuous (Advanced 3), Ambidextrous, Demolisher 3, Fleet Of Foot 3, Greyhound, Iron Stamina 3, Parkour 5, Quick Draw (Katana), Seizing The Edge, Fame 3, Inspiring, Iron Will, Striking Looks 1, Armed Defense 5, Defensive Combat (Brawl, Weaponry), Fighting Finesse (Katana), Iron Skin 2 (Advanced 2), Light Weapons 5, Martial Arts 5, Unarmed Defense 5

Masteries: Weaponry (Counter, Powerful Success, Rapidity x 2, Sublime Stunt, Skill Trick: Butcher), Athletics (Counter, Powerful Success, Rapidity x 2, Incredible Leap), Brawl (Counter, The Guild, Rapidity x 1, Skill Sense) Stealth (Beyond The Limit, Skill Sense), Animal Ken (Powerful Success, Skill Trick: Whisperer), Survival (Skill Trick: Homemade Tools/Master Tracker)

Health: 17
Willpower: 10
Defense: 13
Initiative: 13
Speed: 18
Integrity: 6
Arete: 7
Conditions: Obsessed (Defeating Aku)

>>53827001
Except you'd obviously care, because compared to Mages Sorcerers suck, and several of the traditions [notably, the Etherites] couldn't easily have sorcerers in them at all, since sorcerers literally can't carry out their philosophy.

It makes no sense to say there's sorcerers in many Traditions, especially if you assume they're the majority.

>>53827040
>Athletics(Jumping)

kek

>>53827060
>several of the traditions [notably, the Etherites] couldn't easily have sorcerers in them at all

>Doesnt know what Extraordinary Citizen are.

>>53827060
Except canonically sorcerers make up the majority of the Traditions and Conventions.

Philosophy doesn't really matter when mages define it for them.

I seem to remember several of the independant crafts having way more unawakened sorcerers than the proper traditions

>>53827114
Only canon for Revised, and the fact that its canon there doesn't change the fact that its stupid and makes no sense.
>>53827109
The Extraordinary Citizen is Technocracy you dumb idiot. Obviously there is Technocratic sorcerers, since you can learn by rote their Procedures, the entire Etherite philosophy is that every Etherite composes his own theories for how the world works and builds devices based on those theories.

Etherites are by definition individualists who rely heavily on the whole "set your own reality" thing, so the idea of an Etherite sorcerer is almost a contradiction in terms. At best you could have a kind of lab assistant who replicates inventions designed by an existing Etherite. But that is less a true Etherite and more a lackey.

>>53827161
Makes complete sense to me, actually.

I think you're just a bit biased.

So what's Dark Era's:to the strongest about?

>>53826969

When i have use them in mage they are the backbone of the Traditions. Doing work and living with them on a somewhat even footing but the awakened status being the thing that make some pass through the ranks to comet speed.

For example: There was a chantry of mostly hermetics on the game. 1 master hermetic, 3 zelators (Hermetics sorcerers), and 2 other mages from 2 other traditions. Then one of the PC "joined" as he was an hermtic.

So there was this situation in which the Zelators who were 2 middle age persons and a 30 something one took orders from a 20 something because he outrank them and was just "better" at mastering the hermetic magic than them.

However the 3 Zelators were a highly effective team of investigators using their few paths in productive ways. While the hermetic was better at blowing stuff up. So there was this fine line of the hermetic mage having to walk a fine line because while he outrank the Zelators, they handle a lot of the day to day business of the chantry and they got 20 years more of experience on them that could be use to make the hermetic mages life more difficult.

>>53827207
mages in the time of the successor kingdoms to Alexander the Great's empire

>>53827161

Or you know, you could have etherite citizen who subscribe to various or one "published" theory of the etherites. But why would i correct your idiocy?

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>>53827203
Actually Sorcery Revised itself says as much, saying Etherite Sorcerers are an extreme minority among the Tradition.

>>53827244
So a fluff book? Worth the 5 bucks?

>>53827262

On the other hand, the etherites themselves have little organization.

>>53827250
I literally said that was a possibility in the post you linked to, only that it wouldn't be a true Etherite in philosophy or outlook.

You can be a Hermetic in philosophy and still be a Sorcerer, you can't be an Etherite in philosophy and be a Sorcerer.
>>53827232
Not remotely how I use them. In my games they're kind of on the fringes of Tradition society. Akashics may use Sorcerer-thugs who channel chi, Hermetics train people in sorcery hoping they'll awaken, an Etherite may have a sorcerer lab-assistant, but there is no proper placement in the Traditions unless you Awaken.

There is also no pretense of them being equal or remotely approachable to the Awakened. A major event in my chronicle was when a Mage PC's brother, who was a Sorcerer, awakened.

>>53827262
So they're the odd one out? That's about it.

>>53827262
I don't think they were referring to sorcerers there.

>>53827317
>Not remotely how I use them. In my games they're kind of on the fringes of Tradition society. Akashics may use Sorcerer-thugs who channel chi, Hermetics train people in sorcery hoping they'll awaken, an Etherite may have a sorcerer lab-assistant, but there is no proper placement in the Traditions unless you Awaken.
>There is also no pretense of them being equal or remotely approachable to the Awakened. A major event in my chronicle was when a Mage PC's brother, who was a Sorcerer, awakened.

Kinda boring setting you got there mate. You really thing everyperson living in the Tradition strongholds has arete? All of them? Even the guy doing the accounting is an adept of forces or something? How your traditions work, who does the necessary menial work then?

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>>53827281
i dunno, are you interested in PHALANGITES and the origin of how so many greek and indian terms got into the modern mage lexicon?

>>53827368
Yes they are, you can download the book in the OP. They crux of the issue is that all Etherites have their own theories on literally everything, they create their own model of the universe and build inventions based on it using their Avatar to make the inventions work. That is how Etherites work.

A Sorcerer walks a linear path, thus he has no place among the Etherites. The closest a Sorcerer can be to an Etherite is someone who uses the theories of an Awakened Etherite to build functioning inventions, but he isn't so much following their philosophy or worldview as pantomiming it.

This isn't the case with a Hermetic Sorcerer for instance, for whom the distinction in THEORY is far more nuanced.

>>53827399

Or some sleeper who gets his hands on some old issues of Paradigma

>>53827370
Sleepers or more rarely Umbroods, when such a thing is a concern at all. The Traditions in my setting aren't nearly so monolithic that they require a huge task-force of sorcerers to do their work for them.

The precise demographics are as follows.

There are around 30,000 Awakened on Earth, divided into 33% Technocracy 77% Traditions and Crafts. 35% of Mages are Arete 1-2, 64% are Arete 3-4, and less then 1% are Arete 5-6. I've heavily rebalanced many of the successes required for effects and I don't use Masters of the Art as I view it as too OP even for my tastes.

There are 80,000-90,000 Sorcerers on Earth many of whom are employed by the Technocratic Union. The rest are usually very weak, and don't use Sorcery rules, instead having a handful of Rotes instead of Spheres and otherwise mostly functioning as Mages. They aren't usually formally integrated into the Traditions, but serve on the periphery. An Akashic Master for instance in my setting has hundreds of Sorcerer-thugs working for him who mostly just buff their unarmed and act like wuxia goons. Otherwise they're the petty Mages, the half-Mages, the mooks of the setting and everyone familiar with magick knows it.

A Cainite on the street may not be able to tell the difference, but nobody in the Order of Hermes is calling a sorcerer their Pater.

>>53827399
Stop acting like your opinions have any weight.

Jesus

>>53827691
Stop being a huge faggot.

>>53827399
>Sorcerer walks a linear path, thus he has no place among the Etherites
Not according to canon lore

:^)

>>53827732
>Canon lore says exactly what I just said
>>53827262
Read the thread.

>>53827758
I don't see "sorcerers"

:^)

>>53827732
He might as well argue that no sorcerer has any place in the Traditions/Conventions.

Which just isn't true, of course.

>>53827691
>Jesus

>Probably was a mediocre mage

>>53827822
Good. Religious figures piss me off in OWoD.

>>53827883
>Good. Religious figures piss me off in OWoD.

Then you must really hate Masquerade as it is Old Testament-tastic.

>>53827944
Despite being the first of the splats, Masquerade has honestly shit all over the metaplot/cosmology due to its religious aspects.

>>53828036
The religious aspects is what really held the Masquerade meta-plot back. That and the weird tonal shift with low generation vampires being something closer to jojo's bizarre adventure than say Dracula.

>>53828036
I'm pretty sure those are actually the best parts and the real problem is that you should be playing nWoD with the other edgeteens, buddy.

>>53828274
Shouldn't you be in bed by now grandpa?

Just ran the playtest. All the characters and the plot McGuffin survived, which is something I didn't expect in my wildest dreams.

Combat was super fast, feeding and blood were interesting and involved without being overbearing.

Some rules oddities cropped up (ties?) and the structure of the scenario made it hard to evaluate when scenes changed. My PCs should've likely been a lot hungrier than they were.

Overall, very enjoyable. Loved the details provided from a ST's point of view. Felt very V:tM.

>>53829375
>Felt very V:tM.
That's not very assuring senpai.

>>53829471
Alright, to elaborate, it felt very much like the mood of early game VtM: Bloodlines.

>>53829375
Sounds good, though I think I'm gonna miss blood pool as a concept if not always as it was executed.

>>53829889
You still have to keep an eye out on your blood use, but it's never going to be "because if I use it all up, I can't use my spechul powers".

You can always use your cool shit. You just might not like where it takes you.

>>53829909
>You can always use your cool shit. You just might not like where it takes you.

So if you use your powers without enough vitae in your system, problems crop up?

>>53829922
Once you hit 5 Hunger and 5 uses of Rouse the Blood in a scene, every new use forces a frenzy check and all the dice that show up 1 result in a Compulsion. You quickly run out Composure and go ballistic.

>>53830015
I presume you Rouse the Blood in order to activate Disciplines? Or as preparation there?

>>53830015
Actually one feedback question we got was related to whether Rouse the Blood is limited to the first time you hit 5 and then every 5 afterward, or every 1 afterward.

Quick math with every 5 rouses, without WP:
Starting at 0 Hunger, you use Rouse the Blood five times and get a hunger check for 2.5 average extra hunger. At 3.5 avg hunger, you rouse the blood five times again for a total of 10 roused - avg 5 extra hunger which forces a frenzy check at -1 avg penalty which is still beatable by all the pregen chars on average. The next rouse at 15 gives a 7.5 hunger increase on average, which is a 100% Frenzy.

With Willpower expenditure on the increased hunger check, you gain average 1.25 hunger at 5 rouses, 2.5 at 10 rouses and 3.75 at 15 rouses. This would put you at 7.5 hunger average, which is a -2.5 dice penalty to your Frenzy check. You could rouse blood 15 times and still be able to resist frenzy on a luckier roll.

This means that the non-combat pregen characters could heal through four +1 success assault rifle bursts with their stats bumped by 3 dots for the scene with blood alone before they start frenzying at any certainty.

>>53830113
Rouse the Blood is used for:

• Rise every evening
• Temporarily increase an Attribute by one dot for the remainder of the scene (up to a maximum of 5)
• Use a Discipline
• Heal damage
• 5 x Rouse: Heal impairments incurred from Aggravated damage
• To appear human for one scene (simulate breathing, skin warmth, eye blinking, etc.)

There is no limit to how many Rouses you can do in a turn and using blood doesn't take up an action. You just have to check for hunger at 5 rouses.

>>53830113
>I presume you Rouse the Blood in order to activate Disciplines?

You Rouse the Blood every time your vampire does *anything* supernatural, basically.

Every time they wake up in the evening, every time they use a discipline, every time they increase an attribute, every time they heal damage, every time they try to appear human for a scene, and so on.

Anything that blood was used for in the old VtM rules is now "Rouse the Blood", basically. Personally, I'm not very fond of it.

>>53830277
Hm. That's not quite as big a divorce from previous fluff as I was worried about. Not bad.

Now, if only the character design didn't put me off so much...

Here's an Anydice.com script to oogle at the expected values for normal rolls and rolls to which you spent WP on.

http://anydice.com/program/c07c

With 8 dice and WP spent, you're looking at a 67.85% chance to get at least six successes.

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Version 1.16
Updated with Forge Masters.

First attainment is simple.
Second one is useful as well (including enhancing the activation roles of Imbued items and Artifacts)
Third one is neat, but nothing too special. I guess you can slice through Ghosts with a sword without Dissonance or feeling bad about it.
Fourth attainment is Lasting Perfected Materials. Something DaveB will remove from the provided spells, but has hinted is possible with Attainments, so I've done it RAW for that.
Fifth attainment is creating a Platonic form, a really good Platonic form, then making it even better with refinement, then even better again if you're a second-degree Master as it counts as the Platonic Form of a specific Perfected Material/Alloy.

Also I wrote out the initiation rite in full, and included the picture.
Because it's fucking awesome.
Also because the art reminds me of based Mignola.

>>53830015
Shouldn't you just like, be killed straight-up for losing control? Ignoring that certain vamps will do this on principal, you're going to violate masquerade half the time, which a LOT more vamps and other things will kill you on the principal of, and the losing control is itself such a brutal status effect that it should likely cause you to die in any dangerous situation already.

I don't like just putting that death note on RNG. Losing control of your character is worse than a paradox.

>>53831283
Hasn't frenzy always been an RNG check? Vampires were flying off the handle at the sight of someone waving a cigarette in their face.

>>53831037
That's pretty metal.

What Rank would a spirit of injustice be? One that's well feed off of a corrupt local judge?

I was thinking around rank 3.

>>53825455
After the cancer of Beast the Tubmlring and Prometheans the Trannieangst, a bit of piss taking is merited, but also, it's rpg.net, the site is a complete cesspit.

>>53831419
Yeah, Rank 3 is for local power players.
Rank 4 for the big fish.

>>53825580
If only there were real legends, folktales, and stories to base the idea of werewolves/lycanthropes being evil upon! Concepts like the fear of the wild, the power and merciless hunger of a predator in its natural environment, the horror of predators that turn to man, show us that we are not the apex predator, that there are wild things equipped to end us effortlessly if they so want to, and that sometimes they do.. But no! None whatsoever! We went so mad with our virtue signaling and love for native americans/tribalism/primitive cultures oppressed by whitey we forgot about all of that! So now instead we have to make up shit about werewolves going all nazi concentration camp rape cannibal breeding genocide on the poor widdle werepigs!

What the fucking fuck?

>>53825662
currently in a D&D5e game and made a charsheet for WtA game that was Soon^tm for several months

What's the abundance for nonsplat supernatural weirdness?

Im guessing ghosts are the most common followed by spirits after that idk.

>>53826222
God yes, the core problem of rpg.net isn't just that it's attracted tumblr trash, it's run by SJWs of the worst sort, at every level.

>>53826369
; ;

In awakening 2e do people with supernatural merits like say clairvoyance count as sleepwalkers?

If yes would they be useful enough for orders/local cabals to recruit for their own purposes.

>>53831673
Spirits are way more common then Ghosts. Ghosts need traumatic shit to form, a Spirit need you to have a really good burger or get high to form.

>>53831765
Yes, and yes.

Read through V5, made a list of the things I like and dislike about it.

Likes:

Dislikes:
- uses number of successes rather than target number
- "succeed at a cost" (if I wanted to play FATE I'd play FATE)
- takes out botch
- takes out 10-again
- takes out negative 1s
- only 3 attributes
- virtue and vice
- only two types of damage
- HUNGER AND COMPULSIONS
- generation is weird

>>53832010
You do realize that you still end up with very similar mathematical end results without the wonkiness of shifting target numbers, rerolling and cancelled out successes?

>>53832228
Sure. You'd also get similar mathematical end results by switching to d6s. But in the end, I honestly don't care very much about the probabilities since that's on an abstract level - I care about how it feels to play the game. And in play, I want shifting target numbers in OWOD, rerolling, and cancelled out successes. These things are things which actively make the game better for me, and their absence actively makes it worse.

>>53832931
>rolling dice makes a difference to how the game feels.

knob.

>>53832010
>I dislike everything good about the new game

>>53833362
Welcome to the internet. Where design doesn't matter and emotionally invested opinions rule supreme.

>>53827040
>using Cocks of Darkness and not glorious based 1e, which is what Dark Heroes were originally written for

>>53831821
it's WoD, so traumatic shit might outnumber the burgers

>>53833362
Didn't notice anything that could be described that way, did I miss something?

>>53833405
Hey, if you want to go play FATE or whatever game with nonexistent rules, knock yourself out. This is the World of Darkness thread though.

>>53833528
You have a point about mixing editions being a dubious idea. Are his traits by themselves accurate, at least?

>>53833605
Well let's just check through this, shall we?

>uses number of successes rather than target number
Oh no, it uses the same system as CofD! How ever shall we recover from the streamlined ease of play?!
>"succeed at a cost" (if I wanted to play FATE I'd play FATE)
How is this relevant beyond your leddit-tier meming? It drives up the dramatic tension without resorting to a binary pass/fail.
>takes out botch
Botch is still represented by rolls with no successes. Read again, faggot.
>takes out 10-again
Who cares? It rarely came up in cWoD, except when a character had a relevant speciality. How would it add to the game?
>takes out negative 1s
Good, cWoD botch rules were retarded and bogged down the story/gameplay
>only 3 attributes
>Muh LARP
>virtue and vice
The only part I'll agree with you here, but it's so minor that you can easily just switch it out with personality archetypes
>only two types of damage
See my first point
>HUNGER AND COMPULSIONS
I actually like this. It fits the games thematically and it's a good mechanical substitute to blood points- which were never really relevant except when PCs didn't have enough point for their abilities.
>generation is weird
Agreed, but they outright say their outline is a stop gap for the pre-alpha.

>>53832010

If I wanted to play with CofD mechanics, I have requiem, awakening, forsaken and the translation guide. 5e seems superfluous at this point.

>>53833872
>>number of successes
If I wanted to play nWoD I'd play nWoD. Like >>53833982 said.
>>"succeed at a cost"
>How is this relevant beyond your leddit-tier meming? It drives up the dramatic tension without resorting to a binary pass/fail.
Not a fan of it. In my experience it lowers the tension, not raises it.
>>takes out botch
>Botch is still represented by rolls with no successes. Read again, faggot.
Fair. I was misled by the fact that they said "We removed some rules found in previous editions: Botch".
>>takes out 10-again
>>takes out negative 1s
I liked them. Made the rolls more dramatic and tense.
>>only two types of damage
>See my first point
Ugh, they got rid of that in CofD as well? Good to know. Even more reason not to buy it.

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>>53831549

This is probably why werewolves do all the stupid shit they do.

>>53833872
>>53834130
Rereading the hunger and compulsions section now. From what I'm getting, unless you murder someone every day, you have a 1-in-10 chance of being useless every time you roll. If you ever end up any more hungry than that, like if you tried to do anything useful and you haven't gotten around to eating yet, it goes up even more and you have a chance at worse. Regular hunger and frenzy mechanics were bad enough, but this? Mechanics where you can't play your character aren't fun.

>>53832010

You know "success at a cost" isn't just Fate, right? It's quickly becoming an RPG standard for system design.

>>53825455
I hate the "Triggered" thing because it's a joke used by the absolutely lamest people. Like, the kind of guy who goes to a protest carrying a Pepe sign and drinks milk on a hot day to own libs.

>>53834456

It's out of tone with the rest of the rules, and I don't really care for that. The basic idea is fine, the name's just gotta change.

>>53834442
Yeah and it's dumb everywhere.

>>53834707

Nah, it's basically what a lot of GMs end up doing anyways, so it might as well be codified in rules form. Binary pass/fail is still fine, but you need a setting and system built around it so that it doesn't end up a hard stop instead of something that increases tension.

>>53834850
Better idea: don't suck.

Besides, if you suck at GMing enough that you get a hard stop when the characters fail, there's still a chance to fail with this so you still have a chance for a hard stop.

>>53833362
>>I dislike everything good about the new game

Such as? I am seriously curious whats good about the new V5?

wow check this.

Something new gets released and gets talked about with no magefags shitting the place up...

thats the best bit about V5 so far.

>>53835333

We're trying to gauge how terrible M5 will be from the initial info.

>>53835218

Years of poor design and uncorrected assumptions around binary pass/fail systems has created an environment where GMs are encouraged to see failure as a hard stop. Instead of actually talking about whether binary pass/fail is truly necessary to a parricular game's setting and system, people just attribute it to individual GM skill, which can only be manifested and nurtured by systems with the design flaws and missteps that encourages them.

Success with cost/partial success encourages the inexperienced GM to think around and avoid hard stops. It may still be possible, but the chance of it lessens compared to a poorly designed binary pass/fail system. In some settings, it is far more appropriate for a game's setting and concept than binary pass/fail.

>if you suck at GMing enough that you get a hard stop when the characters fail

It's telling that this is all the post boils down to. It's not an actual problem with the design concept, it's just your sense of GM mastery being threatened.

>>53835432
Can somebody provide a example of a "hard stop".

Never encountered such a thing even when failing constantly in rpgs. Maybe its my GM maybe not but wtf is a hard stop? You fail and the games over?

>>53834456
>>53834494
That joke is not going to age well...
...so it's like 90% of everything WW does, back to the classic!

File: life is laughing at you.jpg (45KB, 344x346px) Image search: [Google]

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>>53835397
There's nothing here that can be used for Mage except the new dice system and the only 3 attribute problem.

Though i can see it now, say goodbye to spheres and hello to a single magic mechanic for all effects.

>>53835397
It can't be any worse than M20. I'm not certain M20 even functions as a game RAW.

>>53835677
remember to eat healthly and buy from local shops!

Wonder what gems of wisdom M5e will give us?

>>53835432
I'm far from a master at GMing. I barely GM myself. But it's trivial to not make things come to a complete stop---either as a GM or as a player. So trivial, in fact, that it's hard to think of situations in which it *would* come to a complete stop.

But let's say your right and that these GMs suck because they never learn not to suck. How about, instead of making a dumb rule like this one, we tell them straight out: "When designing a campaign, you should make sure to design it so that your game will not come to a complete stop if your characters fail a roll or if your characters decide to do something unconventional."

Because really, there are two issues. One is whether having nonbinary options is necessary to the game or not. My view is that it's not necessary. Many games are highly successful with a binary mechanic, and this type of "succeed, but the GM gets to throw in some complication" doesn't add anything to the game besides lower tension.

Second, there's the issue of a complete stop. This isn't something that can be remedied by just including a weird and completely unrelated rule. Arguably, you *could* take the method that Gumshoe takes where failure is impossible. This would make it so that a complete stop due to chance doesn't happen. At the cost of all mechanical tension in the game whatsoever. But this isn't even perfect because *even if you can't mechanically fail* you can still reach a complete stop for other reasons. Your players could choose to make their own plot, for example, or they could just not look for the right clues in the mystery, or any number of reasons. I highly doubt including an unrelated rule will actually make any of that not happen.

Do conditions stack?

Like if I get multiple exceptional successes before resolving the first one.

>>53835771

>But it's trivial to not make things come to a complete stop---either as a GM or as a player. So trivial, in fact, that it's hard to think of situations in which it *would* come to a complete stop.

For you, who has time to read game books and play games and have access to a greater gaming community. It's trivial to us because we're already in it.

>we tell them straight out: "When designing a campaign, you should make sure to design it so that your game will not come to a complete stop if your characters fail a roll or if your characters decide to do something unconventional."

Or, the designer could do their job and consider that if they need to put that in the GM section to patch over the hole in their task resolution system, they should consider either the take resolution system is actually appropriate for their setting and game.

We are trained more by the actual systen than by the GM advice in the back of the book.

>Many games are highly successful with a binary mechanic, and this type of "succeed, but the GM gets to throw in some complication" doesn't add anything to the game besides lower tension.

I don't think we're actually talking about the same kind of tension, if you think that success lowers tension even when a complication is attached to it.

I'm not asking for the extinction of binary pass/fail. I'm aware that there are plenty of good games with it, I play some. I don't think a success spectrum is the magic bullet that will save a bad game session. What I am saying is that "git gud" isn't a compelling argument against it, nor does that make it unnecessary.

>>53831673
>>53831821
In Cofd/NWoD Ghosts are explicitly the most common supernatural creature. It's rare for people to not leave a ghost behind. Trauma just makes it more likely for them to be strong enough to do anything. After them it's spirits. After that it's every thing else that's not a major template.

>>53834130
Bashing in Cocks of Derpness pretty much never comes up because the retarded writers don't quite get beating someone with a bat isn't as likely to kill them as shoving a knife into their fleshy bits

>>53836151
>It's trivial to us because we're already in it.
No, it's trivial because it's a trivial thing to do. Unless you are saying that type of player when they are confronted with a failed roll just goes "Oh, well, there goes the game. That was fun, see y'all next week for a different campaign."

>Or, the designer could do their job and consider that if they need to put that in the GM section to patch over the hole in their task resolution system
The assumption you are making is that there is a hole. There isn't. Failure in rolls is a good thing because without it you can't really have a meaningful game.

I'm not asking for everyone to be a master GM starting out. What I am asking for is that we don't pander to incompetent people. Particularly since, as I discussed, if you're the type of GM/players who encounter complete stops (I would be surprised if this were any more than a tiny minority), they aren't going to not happen just because you make the rules worse for the rest of us.

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>>53837166

Hey, if you thought Brucato's sidebar in M20 was bullshit, look at this.

>>53834303
This is fake news.
Compulsions don't work at all like frenzy

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>>53834303
Wtf? Compulsions don't at all make a character useless. They're no worse than CofD conditions, and far less intrusive.

>>53837218
>Hey, if you thought Brucato's sidebar in M20 was bullshit, look at this.

I actually liked that thing. I've even made a few of the recipes myself.

Only thing I disliked was the whole "one recipe per tribe" thing... I would've preferred if there were 2-3 recipes given for each tribe, rather than just one.

Though, I'd give the Red Talons a pass on only having one recipe, simply because it fits the lore that they don't really bother with any recipes or even cooking any of the meat they eat, given they're hardcore furries, to the point where even the regular werewolves go "those guys have problems".

>>53835218
>Game rules with 'suceed with a cost' mechanics suck
>GMs should just instead suck less by homebrewing it into the system

>>53837365
>>53837403
"Compulsions
[...]
1. Overpowering blood whisper. Memories or emotions of your last victim rise to the surface, whispering insistently in your ears. Lose an action if in combat, otherwise remain immobile listening to the murmurings for 1 minute.
[...]
10: Frenzy! Make an immediate frenzy roll against
perceived provocation or fear."
Sorry if I don't want a guaranteed 1-in-10 chance or more to be useless if I don't murder enough people.

>>53837439
I can't even begin to figure out how you misunderstood that.

>>53837550
>if I don't murder enough people.
maybe a game about a race of murderous beings isnt for you?

Reading Book of the Wyrm, it occurs to me Pentex seems purpose built to provide a common enemy for almost any crossover.

A Get of Fenris Ahroun, Progenitor biodiversity researcher, Sabbat Inquisitor, and a Risen victim of a First Team might not agree on much, but they'd all have good reason to turn against Pentex.

>>53837665
In previous games, both VtM and VtR, you could easily get your blood's fill from drinking only a little. You could avoid being a monster if you wanted. With this? You're actively being punished for it. I don't want a system that encourages characters to be 1 Humanity. (At least they still have humanity. V6 will probably get rid of that.) I don't mind playing a being that has to drink blood to survive, but I want to have a fun game when I try to play a character that doesn't want to be a murderer. Otherwise you're just going the same way as Beast did.

>>53835521
>Can somebody provide a example of a "hard stop".
>Never encountered such a thing even when failing constantly in rpgs. Maybe its my GM maybe not but wtf is a hard stop? You fail and the games over?

Example, you playing werewolf and try to use enigma to get a the Ban of a spirit.

Dm- Roll enigmas.
PC- I failed the roll.
Dm- You dont guess the ban, try something else.
PC- Stare blankly at the DM because he has no idea what to do next.

>>53837865
>In previous games, both VtM and VtR, you could easily get your blood's fill from drinking only a little.
only if you never did anything
>character that doesn't want to be a murderer.
yeah thats why its a personal horror game. you're character is supposed to be upset about having to kill people.

>>53837865

I agree something i like on Vampire was getting dominate 2 and the handwave all feeding and concentrate in the politics and conspiracies.

So I actually have a werewolf character concept I'd like to try. A Child of Gaia Philodox who sees the Beast Courts and Ahadi as the way of the future and establish a Democratic "Fera Nation" to replace the old, failing Garou Nation.

>>53838146
Sounds weaver corrupted, you'll probably be executed if you are dealing with Western Garou.

>>53837984
The whole game literally feels like its focused on feeding, and then meta plot has most of the elders running off to fuck off in the east somewhere and they want the game to focus on anarchs, which means the political structure and the whole jyhad aspect of the game is neutered in favor of some boring survival game of randomly generated people (to the point of including retarded D&D style random encounter charts) to eat.

I just don't think feeding can be a fun game experience more than like once, and if you've ever read about vampires feeding before that number drops to 0. Its never been a fun part of the game and they gutted the entire structure that made the game fun.

>>53838167

Why does the game go out of the way to make the Western Garou extra special retarded? What about Glass Walkers/Bone Gnawers?

So are Liches flat out banned in Mage society or if you did it in a way that doesn't harm other people and kept your head down would they frown on it but not make too much of a fuss about it.

>>53838219
>Glass Walkers/Bone Gnawers
They might be on board for the idea.

>Why does the game go out of the way to make the Western Garou extra special retarded?
If they weren't retarded they could solve the problems presented in their game line with ingenuity instead of blind rage. Honestly the top down retarded structure is supposed to be the world you are in, and I get the impression PCs are mostly supposed to be deviants

>>53837865
>only drink a little blood
>could avoid being a monster
>will not ultimately be a murderer

The lies vampires tell themselves...

There are no limits to the denial of undead leeches.

If a vampire sincerely does not want to be a monster, they would happily greet the sun and embrace its cleansing rays.

Until such time a vampires actually develop a conscience, if this is indeed possible, it is incumbent on the Awakened and others with a good heart, strong arm, and hardy soul to eliminate the putrescent pestilence of their existence.

-Jophiel, Obrimos Master of the Adamantine Arrow, Chief Sentinel of the Austin Concilium

>>53838315
>Jophiel, Obrimos Master of the Adamantine Arrow, Chief Sentinel of the Austin Concilium
What hes saying is even mages don't like 5e.

>>53838219
>>53838167
>>53838146
>>53838300

I'm fully expecting to have to fight for this, but I don't think everyone would reject it outright.

As a starting character, it would be an idea that develops through the course of the game to the point he's well known and strong enough to fight for his goals.

He knows the Fera will probably tell him to get fucked, at least at first, but he just hopes that they'll come around in time for the end of all things.

>>53838231

Depends on the type of lich. I'd say it's very "Don't ask don't tell" in that kind of situation.

>>53838315

We fuck up and kill people too, you know. Is a Vampire more dangerous to the average sleeper than a Mage?

The need to feed on human blood says yes, but the wickedness of the Seers of the Throne and Scelesti tell me otherwise.

What's worse, a Monster that strives to resist it's nature, or a Human who gives in to theirs?

- Ms. Unkhinkable, Moros Adept, Free Council, Syndic of the Rockin' Smithy Cabal and 3rd degree Forge Master

Is this pointed out correct?

Mana tuning fork
Imbued Item (•••)
Mana pool: 5
Arcana: Prime 3

The mage spends a point of the items mana and rolls (gnosis+3) to channel mana w/ the item. The tuning fork must be touching the source of mana (e.g. other mage, hallow, tass, etc.) and can only channel mana equal to the mage's gnosis derived maximum. It may channel mana into itself as well.

>>53838146

As ideas go is not that bad, i would take work and everything but the main problem is finding a DM that is

A) Willing to include the beast courts in a game.

B) Wants to run a game of that scale in which you can change the setting at large.

C) Agree with your idea to make it possible.

Are mages truly bigger douchebags than vampires?

>>53838699

They don't have to have much of a presence, he's just holding the Courts and Ahadi up as examples of what inter-breed cooperation can accomplish.

Of course, this would require pointing out the many failings of the Garou, building consensus, etc.

I'm not expecting to fully replace the Garou Nation but to present an alternative that attempts to atone for past misdeeds and prevents future ones.

Of course, spectacular failure of someone trying to make things work is also a big part of Werewolf, so that's possible too.

Playing Mage has encouraged proactive player plot creation behavior on my part.

>>53838739 see >>53838566

Vampires are more likely to be douchebags, but Mages have the potential for cosmic-level douchbaggery

>>53838739
Mages are the biggest of cunts

Archmages are practically the living embodiments of douchebaggery.
Quite literally too, once they ascend and become living symbols.

>>53838566
>Is a Vampire more dangerous to the average sleeper than a Mage?

Yes. Next question.

>>53838739
>Are mages truly bigger douchebags than vampires?

Also yes, but being an asshole is hardly the equivalent of leaving an inevitable wake of exsanguinated corpses and assorted misery.

>>53839174
how about leaving an inevitable wake of soul-reaved sleepers and pockets of space-time where reality has literally disappeared up its own asshole

seriously stop fucking poking the abyss guys

>>53839174
But vampires prey on the living out of necessity.

A sorcerer will sacrifice an infant for more power just because he wants to.

The biggest monsters are always human.

>>53838983
Archmages cannot ascend in MtA.

>>53839312
>can't tell the difference between Ascension and Awakening

Why are you even here?

File: Majin_Buu.png (347KB, 726x1099px) Image search: [Google]

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MAJIN BUU

Note: This is an approximation. If you want something closer to the orginal, use the Scaling rules from page 218 of Mage Chronicler's Guide.

Virtue: Playful
Vice: Childish/Gluttonous
Aspirations: Have Fun Fights, Learn More About The World, Make Friends

Mental Attributes: Intelligence 2, Wits 6, Resolve 9
Physical Attributes: Strength 10, Dexterity 8, Stamina 10
Social Attributes: Presence 5, Manipulation 2, Composure 4

Skills: Investigation 2, Occult (Chi Techniques) 3, Athletics 6, Brawl 6, Animal Ken 1, Empathy 2, Expression (Humor) 1, Intimidation (Temper Tantrum) 4, Persuasion 1, Socialize (Cheerful) 3, Subterfuge 1

Merits: Danger Sense 2 (Advanced 2), Indomitable 2, Trained Observer 3, Vice-Ridden 2, Double Jointed 2 (Advanced 1), Greyhound 1, Iron Will 2, Sympathetic 2

Willpower: 22
Defense: 12
Initiative: 12
Speed: 33 On Ground, 168 While Flying
Health: 17 (Size 7)
Potency: 9

Dread Powers: Absorption*, Cyclopean Strength*, Infestation*, Numen (Teleportation, Transmutation), Relentless Hunter*, Shifting, Psychic Talent x 3*, Unbreakable*

*Absorption: Works like a pseudo Claiming.

*Cyclopean Strength, Infestation, Relentless Hunter, Unbreakable: As per the Beast Atavisms. Majin Buu is considered to always be at Low Satiety, and can mimic the Satiety Expenditure effect by spending 2 Willpower points.

*Shifting: As per the Idigam version.

*Psychic Talent: Gives dots of Supernatural Merits equal to Potency every time it is purchased. Majin Buu has Telekinesis 5 (Advanced 5), Telekinetic Mastery 3, Aura Reading 3, Psychokinesis 5 (Chi: Advanced 4, Epic 2)

>>53839407
To trigger you.

>>53839312

They can, but they have to be able to let go of power and become more like oracles.

Most of them aren't able to.

>>53838231
Depends on the Lich.

Stuff like turning yourself into a ghost or a spirit is a bit like being a socialist in American politics: nobody likes you, but they tolerate your existence.

Stuff like the Tremere is a good way to get banhammered.

>>53838205
>I just don't think feeding can be a fun game experience more than like once
you have a shitty imagination.

So my friends want me to run a chronicle for Demon and I have almost everything figured out. My big problem at this point is I have no clue how to construct enemies as far as stats go. Can anyone help me out with this?

>>53839927
No that's the problem, I can run through every instance of feeding and its just not interesting. Running through an experience once with a character can be fun, being dragged through it as the most important part of any game sounds just boring.

>>53839982
Like generic mooks, recurring NPCs, 'bosses'?

>>53839982
Have some sample Angels:

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/993181-twilight-menagerie?p=1025437#post1025437

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/993181-twilight-menagerie?p=996942#post996942

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/993181-twilight-menagerie?p=999181#post999181

>>53840026
Mooks and bosses, yes

Anybody got M20 Book of Secrets, yet?

>>53840171
waiting for the watermarks to be removed

>>53840545
t h e r e a r e n o w a t e r m a r k s

god damn it all V5 has done to me is make me wanna play V20

Anyone here running and looking for players?

>>53840740
Its the watermarks in our soul that need to be washed away.

>>53838621
1. You can spend your own Mana to activate Imbued Item abilities.
2. You only get a base Mana pool of 1, it increases by 2 for each extra dot you invest. So either increase the cost to 5, or decrease the mana pool to 1.
3. You need to increase the spell's Potency to channel more than 1 Mana per turn, which penalizes the activation roll.

Why no WoD tag in the OP? Who the fuck likes Chronicles more than Classic?

>>53841544
Like, the majority of the fucking people in these threads.
Also because OP fucked up.

>>53841544
The people who aren't blinded by 90s nostalgia don't want to deal with shitty mechanics and a convoluted metaplot.

>>53841668
>shitty mechanics
I LOVE THESE SHITTY MECHANICS FOR SOME REASON.

>>53841668
>The people who aren't blinded by 90s nostalgia don't want to deal with shitty mechanics and a convoluted metaplot.

Sorry anon, those people dont play neither OWoD or NWoD then.

NWoD is for people uneasy with reality that want to Marvel Cinematic Universe it to feel safe.

>>53841737
What the fuck does this even mean?

>>53841715
It beats D&D.

>>53841668
>people who aren't blinded by 90s nostalgia

>Puts on trench coat and mirror shades and polishes "authentic" katana bought at flea market
>plans night in watching Highlander II

>>53841668
Or were too young to remember most of it.

>>53841544
People with brain damage, near as I can tell.

Does anyone want to join a play-by-post Classic WoD roleplay?

>>53842460
What splat?

>>53842574
All splats besides Angels, Orpheus and Mummies. Mages are a lil limited, they can't revert Fera into their human form or summon sunlight or any other instant win thing against other splats.

>>53842699
>can't do instant win shit

Well, you just got yourself a whopping ZERO players from this High Hall of Mage Supremacy, bucko.

>>53834130
>Ugh, they got rid of that in CofD as well? Good to know. Even more reason not to buy it.

No, they still have Bashing, Lethal, and Aggravated in Chronicles of Darkness.

>>53842779
They're still the most powerful splat by far, I just want it so when a mage and another splat meet there's an actual fight. Besides it's more focused on intrigue than fighting.

>>53834130
Sure, healing from being beaten with a baseball bat in 15 minutes per damage point is REALLY realistic.

>>53842832
Spellcasters don't have "fights". Not unless they're facing another spellcaster.
They fucking end the threat(s) then and there.

Stop being a cuck. I demand you let me lawn chair whomever/whatever I want!

>>53841861

Thats is a very low bar

>>53842879
That's not true a Mage in an ill fated crossover made a woof skin his packmates alive with a silver knife.

>>53842699

Can we still teleport a stake into a bitch's heart or get a frenzied fera friend to calm the fuck down? Hermetics and Werecats tend to roll together, and fuck i just got a mental image of a bubasti and mage doing a drive-by on a sabbat pack

>>53843017
at that point the woof should have just Deathraged to make themselves all intents and purposes immune to suggestion

>>53843108
>Hermetics and Werecats tend to roll together

no

>>53842460
perhaps. wanna give some details? I might be interested in playing an old Mage concept I had

link to wherever or a name we can contact through skype/discord would be ideal

Someone tell me why I keep going back to rpg.net and the OPP forums.

>>53843152
same reason I keep coming back to this thread mate

we're masochists, we just gotta accept that we like the pain

>>53842460
>>53842699
You have me intrigued. Where can I subscribe to your newsletter?

>>53843150
Don't give in to his "must dumb down mages der der" demands

>>53843152
Because we're autistic man children who'd give a catty gay hairdresser from the bay area a run for his money over the amount of bullshit drama we like to gossip about.

>>53843017
>made a woof skin his packmates alive with a silver knife.

Good times...

However, if a mage is in a hunting or disgruntled mood, I still believe the undead are far more deserving of eradication.

Woofs make good lackeys, if for no other reason than are functional during the day and (most of the time) don't view your sleepwakers servants as food.

>>53843108
Since M20 you need Life + Spirit to affect shifter patterns and Life + Matter to affect kindred.

>>53843108
Yeah, that's all acceptable. But a stake in a vamps heart would probably just knock him out or torpor him. Here's a link to the RP

https://www.roleplayerguild.com/topics/162819-l-a-by-night-classic-world-of-darkness-vampires-werecreatures-mages/ooc

>>53843152
Only reason I go to the OPP forums anymore is because Vance and Minton keep answering questions in that one thread on the Exalted subforum.

>>53843190
Maybe. I got to the end of the V5 thread finally and people are in full histrionics over the Hunger mechanic, a ventrue with 'children/teenagers' as a feeding restriction, and the railroady 'intro scenario'. They are a dumpster fire in their own right and I can't look away.

>>53842699
>Mages are a lil limited, they can't revert Fera into their human form or summon sunlight or any other instant win thing against other splats

Why must you be so gay?

>>53843193
link here
>>53843228

>>53843203
Oh, I know this; gamers can be and often are WAY worse than any YAAAAS GURRRRL queen. And I say this as both a gamer and a gay man.

>>53843256

I always just house-ruled that it was a pale imitation that vamps find very painful and that summoning true sunlight during the night required arch-sphere shenanigans.

I've had characters hit 6+ Arete but almost never had one get Archspheres, and never beyond 6.

Also I noticed you guys are using Lost rather than Dreaming. Any other surprises?

Anyone got the Demon Translation Guide? I'm kind of on an OWoD kick but I loathe ODemon.

>>53843197
You can't tell me what to do. You aren't my mom

>>53843427
nah, true sunlight/silver/whatever requires Prime to make it metaphysically significant

>>53843427
>Also I noticed you guys are using Lost rather than Dreaming. Any other surprises?

That person just really wanted to use a Draconic changeling so I let it slip, we have one OC race (the exorcist speak no evil guy) but other than that it's all oWoD

>>53843262
Actually looks pretty interesting. Thanks, man. I'll hang around.

>>53843518
Thanks

>>53843427
You just hate mages, don't chu?

>>53843545
Nigga just wants his Mages to play nice-nice.
It's understandable, if a questionable way to go about it.

What are some songs that make you think of WoD?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCCyoocDxBA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKRJfIPiJGY

>>53843564
>Nigga just wants his Mages to play nice-nice.

Not happening

>>53843152
For a chance to heart the holy word of the Komodo Exarch?

>>53843467
Conjuring Sunlight

A powerful mage, however, can pursue a number of options:

• Correspondence 4/ Forces 4 may open a gate between a location where sunlight is and one where sunlight is not. This, of course, is vulgar magick, but the sunlight in question is totally real. (If all someone needs to do is break a window, then just break the goddamned window and don’t worry about using magick.)

• Forces 4/ Prime 2 can generate high-intensity blasts of light that inflict lethal damage. By adding Life 3/ Matter 2, the mage can make that light burn vampires for aggravated damage.

• At the Storyteller’s option, a scientific approach to magick could deploy Forces 5/ Prime 4 to reproduce sunlight in every respect. This option depends upon whether or not the Storyteller views sunlight as a purely physical phenomenon, or as a manifestation of divine grace. Theoretically, a spiritual mage could add Spirit 5 to that Effect and then channel the spiritual essence of sunlight as well as its physical properties. In all three cases – and again, at the Storyteller’s option – such conjured sunlight might act as true sunlight with regards to the undead.

>>53843448
What's wrong with DtD's mechanics?

Why do vampfags get so butthurt when it's mentioned that mid-level mages can conjure sunlight?

>>53843536
>>53843518
By the way if you want to post a character you have to post your character sheet in the OOC and wait for GM approval to post in the character tab, that way it's less cluttered and organized

>>53843653
They don't like being reminded that, for all their mystique and popularity, they're near the bottom of the pecking order scale wise.

>>53843653
Same reason Werefags get buttflustered when someone mentions they can beat them to death with their grandmother's candlestick.

It's worth mentioning that in Awakening mages can turn any light into perfected light (which I call Luxia) with Forces 3, which burns vampires just as excruciatingly as real sunlight.

>>53843708
Shifters in M20 automatically counterspell Mage spheres with Wits + Occult, capped by the higher of their Rage or Gnosis. It's not very easy anymore.

>>53843742
Even when the spell doesn't personally target them?

>>53843676
Thanks for the heads-up. That's how these things are normally run, makes sense.

>>53843764

If it would affect them in any way.

>>53843639

Like I said, I'm on an OWoD kick.

>>53843545
>>53843564
>>53843600

Died in the wool magefag, acknowledge mage supremacy without needing "fuck you, I win" powers.

In fact, one of my favorite OWoD lore blurbs involves a hollow master making it rain fire on vampires, lifting them up past terminal velocity in the air and dropping them, and other such outrageous feats until Wrinkle shows up, she loses her shit at him, and she and all the surviving vampires just vanish as if they never were.

There does need to be a good reason that the Trads and Technos don't just go PURGE AND KILL on vampires, werewolves, and their foes beyond their relatively small numbers.

>>53843742
For any spell or just stuff that fucks with their were-nature?

>>53843781
Neat, so all you need to do is use spells which affect other things, and harm wuffles as a side effect.

>>53843764
Same rules as basic countermagick.

>The Roll: Assuming you have the essential Sphere(s), make an Arete roll. In Mage 2nd , the difficulty for that roll is 7. (Under the Reckoning metaplot in Mage Revised, it’s 8.) We suggest leaving the difficulty at 7.

>• Successes: Each success rolled deducts one success from the attacker’s successes. If the incoming Effect’s results were based upon the Magickal Feats chart , then the incoming spell is less effective than it would have been otherwise – see the Degrees of Success chart instead. If that attack depended upon a certain number of successes, the assault fizzles completely.

>>53843795

Harm is affecting. If you turn the air to lava around the werewolf, it counts.

>>53843783
I always thought the fact that it wasn't resource efficient enough to attempt wiping them all out, when division, disruption and promoting infighting does that job wonderfully, just on a moderately longer timescale.

>>53843152

I think they are a fascinating place the OPP forums. They have systematically constructed the perfect echo chamber for them to sink their heads in.

There are even people who defend M20, that level of Sycophancy or just shit taste is unreal.

>>53843783
If you're on a oWoD kick, consider joining my oWoD RP

https://www.roleplayerguild.com/topics/162819-l-a-by-night-classic-world-of-darkness-vampires-werecreatures-mages/ooc

>>53843742

so wait, throwing a lightning bolt at a werefag nets this resistance?

>>53843810
That's entirely retarded, and stinks of Werefags throwing tantrums until the writers relented.

>>53843609
>>53843609
Yeah, no, I hate all versions of Mage.

>>53843868

Counterspelling countering spells is retarded?

>>53843708
Well if you really wanted to be anal about it, its not sunlight

It just is the platonic form of ANY light making it count as a universal bane, since a vampire's weakness to sunlight is technically a weakness to "Light shed from The Sun" and perfected "Whatevers" count as any metaphysical significant materials, such as perfected blood counting as the blood of a virgin, or a perfected silver dagger counting as a silver dagger forged in the dead of night and cooled with blood

>>53843783
>There does need to be a good reason that the Trads and Technos don't just go PURGE AND KILL on vampires, werewolves, and their foes beyond their relatively small numbers.
This has always been a big sticking point with me. Beyond "well they just don't care", it's hard to imagine why a Mage wouldn't want to get rid of things that are, just by existing, preventing Sleepers from Awakening.

>>53843888
When it's universal and makes next to no sense given the wide breadth of its application and the nature of the splat it comes from.

Mind control and polymorph effects I could accept. But resistance to lightning bolts and mystically thrown boulders? No way.

>>53843783
>For any spell or just stuff that fucks with their were-nature?
Any spell. Affecting their patterns at all requires both Life and Spirit.

>>53843909

Yeah, it's reasons like that I prefer mages to be less all-dominating. A prepared mage who knows what he's going into? Sure, he'll kick ten kinds of ass.

A mage who was misinformed or cocky can get his throat torn open though.

>>53843909
Werewolves don't prevent Sleepers from Awakening though. If anything they provide a potential paradigm for Awakening.

>>53843978
>>53843909
FATHHEERRR
THE SLEEPER HAS AWAKKEENNEEDD

In any case aren't the sleepers irrelevant since there's a big bad god machine that will fuck your shit and rewrite reality if you fuck with it's status quo?

>>53843909
Garou trump Mages in the Umbra 100-0, even at higher Spirit. They can summon and bind ridiculously strong entities without having to bargain or coerce like the Mages do. Should an Awakened pogrom target Garou, they'd jump into the Umbra and then start terrorizing the mages from the weakest link up. Nexus Crawlers are essentially Arete 6 Marauders, and Garou hunt them regularly.

>>53844093

Bullshit, Mages are better in the Umbra than any werewolf. Stop spreading misinformation.

>>53843742
Yeah, those rules are often ignored due to it being catered for special snowflakes angry over purported Mage supremacy

It's also entirely optional with an alternative version being given.

>>53844133
>Rite of Binding, a level 1 rite.

When attempting to bind a spirit, a Garou must first spend a number of Gnosis points (minimum of one). Each point of Gnosis spent reduces the spirit’s Gnosis rat- ing by one. The Garou’s player must then roll Willpower (difficulty equals the spirit’s adjusted Gnosis). The number of successes indicates how long the spirit may be forced into service, with each success binding the spirit for one week. In the case of a talen, the spirit is bound until the object is used.

>Rite of Summoning, a level 2 rite.

The power level of the spirit determines the difficulty level of a successful summoning. The Storyteller can determine difficulty from the following chart:

Spirit Type Difficulty
Gaffling 4
Jaggling 5
Totem avatar 7
Incarna 8–9
Celestine avatar 10

For each hour the Garou spends invoking the spirit, his difficulty drops by one. No difficulty may fall below 3. The player must then make a Gnosis roll and achieve as many successes as possible, with the following results:

Successes Effect

1 Spirit comes eventually and is initially hostile
2 Spirit manifests quickly, but it is still initially hostile
3 Spirit comes immediately and is neutral
4 Spirit comes immediately and is passively benign
5 Spirit comes immediately and is friendly

A botched roll is likely to have disastrous results. Often a botch summons the wrong type of spirit — or even Banes — in great numbers or with great hostility. The Storyteller should feel free to adjust the previous tables as she wishes, particularly as appropriate to totems. In certain cases, a Garou who attempts to summon a specific spirit will have no chance of success. At other times, he will have almost no chance of failure. The Storyteller is advised to treat each use of this rite individually and to use common sense in her decisions.

A Garou who summons an Incarna or Celestine avatar successfully gains two points of Wisdom Renown, unless the summons is done frivolously.

>>53844196
You realize that Spirit Archmages can summon actual Incarna/Celstines (not their Avatars) using Spirit 6 and bend/bind them to their will, right?

Can eventually turn themselves into Celestines after a certain point as well.

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>>53844133
>Bullshit, Mages are better in the Umbra than any werewolf
>>53844214
>Spirit Archmages
>"I-I-I a-a-actually m-m-meant A-Archmages, st-stupid w-werefag! Pl-please stop bullying me"

>>53844214
That's nice. A starting character Garou can pay three background points to start with both of those rites. You want to know what it takes for a Mage, minimum, to perform such acts?

>>53843911
Universal counterspell is actually one of the biggest complaints regarding M20.

Nobody even uses it.

Hilariously, they still acknowledge that it's effectively useless on sufficiently powerful mages.

>>53844004

That's NWoD/CofD

>>53844190

I accept that rule, but I also allow mages to roll sphere+arete (+skill added if they use a rote) for magic.

>>53844196
>trying this hard to sound impressive

When it just isn't

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Look what I found in Infernalism:path of screams.

>>53844258
Mages are shit weak during earlier intervals. This is something I always expected.

The Awakened work harder to become more powerful than vampires, werewolves and others.

>>53844214
Yeah, but archmages shit on everybody. And Spirit 6 is too overpowered to even be considered.

It only takes 20+ successes to dominate the Triat, which isn't hard if you cheese things.

>>53844133
The Union has more influence in the Umbra than the Garou, by far.

They slay Celestines on a daily basis. Constructing entire planets made of machinery and harvesting stars bigger than our own sun.

There's also Threat Null, which is waging war on the infinite Deep Umbra and WINNING.

>>53844306
>>53844258
Here are the rules for a Mage trying to summon anything other than minor elementals.

Trait-wise, a character who wants to call up and deal with Otherworldly entities need at least two dots in at least three of the following Abilities, plus at least three of the listed specialties:
• Cosmology/ Subdimensions (specialties: Otherworldly Etiquette, Courts, Threat-Factors)
• Esoterica (specialties: Umbrood Protocols, Umbral Hierarchies, Enochian, Celestiography, Demonology, Arcane
Symbology, High Ritual, Goetia, Voodoo, Ritual Pentacles, Ritual Names)
• Intimidation (specialties: Brutal Threats, Cold Stare, Topping From Below)
• Leadership (specialties: Regal, Harsh, Soft-Voiced Command)
• Lore: Spirits (specialties: Totems, Loa, Demons, Angels, Aliens, Ghosts, Bargaining, Honorifics, Offerings, Protections,
Spirit Hierarchies)
• Science (specialties: Extra-Dimensional Entities, Hypermathematics, Paraphysics, Psychodynamics)
• Subterfuge (specialties: Con Games, Sensing Deceptions, Spotting Weakness, Undermining Opposition)

Powerful entities must be brought in from distant planes, a task that demands no less than 15 successes and possibly a good deal more. Add +10 successes if the Avatar Storm is still in effect.

In game terms, the character should, at the very least, set up a ward or two – see below for details. A mage who doesn’t take protective measures in advance is essentially smearing meat on himself before jumping into a tiger-cage. A Spirit-affecting Ward requires Correspondence 4, Spirit 4.

Then we get to the actual part, which is the spirit bargaining. Game-wise, the player and Storyteller share a resisted Willpower roll; the difficulty of each roll is the opponent’s permanent Willpower, with each party trying to roll at least one success for each dot in the opponent’s Willpower Trait. The difficulty goes up for the mage/down for the spirit based on the mage's inexperience and the type of favor requested.

GLHF.

>>53844402

That's all pre-revised, and Threat Null is more interested in getting to Earth.

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>>53844196
>>53844415

>>53844454
If we're going to discuss the spirit supremacy of mages, the magefags are going to be using 2e rules.

Revised made everything harder. Above posts being prime examples. Though a good quarter of anon (anons?) are quite wrong. Also ignoring the massive amount of munchkinry mages have over werewolves.

In general though, werewolves are more capable at spirit workings. Just not until the masters are involved.

Somewhat similar for vampires, but not really.

>>53844348
>It only takes 20+ successes to dominate the Triat, which isn't hard if you cheese things.

This sounds like an awesome plot devise.

>>53844415
A Great Work of 10+ successes is five hours per roll. Assuming Arete 4, the average number of rolls at difficulty 4 (max difficulty reduction) with WP spent on each roll for an autosuccess is 5 rolls.

It takes the mage a minimum of twenty five hours to even summon the thing, after which he has to try and get 10 successes with difficulty 10 on his WP roll to get the spirit to do anything of consequence.

A shitty Cliath with three in Wits and Rituals accomplishes all this in a few hours on average.

I was thinking about writing a new scenario using the V5 pre-alpha playtest rules. Does anyone have any ideas as to what sort of challenges, encounters and characters would provide quintessential V:tM experiences?

>>53844566
>"It only takes 20+ successes to dominate the Triat"
>labels it as awesome
Except it's just not. The writers basically went ahead and gave mages (archmages w/e) the capability to whip the top dogs of another gameline.

This is beyond "wizard beats caine" as the Celestines (in this case the Triat) are 100x more powerful than the first vampire.

It's bullshit. Horizon should be ignored. Not nearly as much as MotA.


>>53844644
>working harder for better (potentially) results
Makes sense to me

>>53843653
Because they watched too many episodes of Helsing/Jojo's bizarre adventure.

>>53844697
>working harder for better (potentially) results
Depends on what potentially better results mean.

Rite of Binding is a single WP roll against minimum difficulty one, each success unquestionably binding the spirit to service for a week. No negotiations, no bargaining.

>>53844697
Mages work harder for greater power.

That's kind of premise.
It's easier being a vampire/werewolf. Taming magick demands more patience and skill.

>>53844804
There's also the fact that mages can improvise far better. With overall better results.

Similar to vampire's Dominate eventually being outclassed by the Mind Sphere.

>>53844856
Definitely. But when it comes to raw power in the Umbra, Garou are ridiculously potent from the get-go and only at the very highest levels start to lag behind.

>>53844896
Which isn't a bad thing as others have noted above.

Mages respective power is variously represented at the extremes. Both weaker and far stronger depending on experience.

Ok.

So when do OWoD Mages start to outclass the other monsters?
IE when do the Spheres start surpassing the talents of both Vampires & Werewolves? 4-5 dots?

Mind beating Dominate / Spirit beating Rites etc

>>53844986
It's harder to pinpoint in classic WoD. Lower valleys and higher peaks (arguably) among other things. Ascension is also full of minmaxing.

Mages in Awakening are already better than a lot of other splat abilities at lower levels. Mind 2 being more potent than Dominate 4, as an example.

>>53844986
Mages are more powerful by the virtue of versatility. They can apply their magicks to basically any area of approach. A Virtual Adept can bankrupt an Elder who has hoarded his fortune for centuries over a weekend with Forces 3 and Correspondence 3, no matter how many SchreckNet goonies he has. He might also short-circuit the electronics of the vamp's penthouse and cause a large-scale apartment fire with the same spheres while the elder sleeps.

Garou have a bunch of super OP things, including their basic war form, Rage, umbral travel and the power of their gifts. The level 2 gift Spirit of the Fray makes Garou autowin initiative against everything in the game, so the Mage needs a pre-cast defensive buff to survive the initial onslaught.

Mental assault is powerful against Garou at earlier levels, but once a Garou gets to rank 4, they can pick up Mindblock that set the difficulty of all mental or psychic assaults against them to 10 permanently.

Spirit-oriented Garou can bind a dozen fire elementals to hurl 10 dice of undodgeable aggravated damage at the Mage. A Mage with prep could keep those spirits out from his sanctum with a ward, however. A mage with prep, in general, is going to win most things.

An Entropy 3 mage can put a vulgar curse on a target that makes every car they come across accidentally steer into the victim. Every car. For a month. Even if a Garou/Vampire can survive those collisions with relative ease, it makes their life very complicated. The Mage can use that time bought to prep additional defenses and contingencies.

>>53844004
The God Machine does very little aside from assure its own existence though. And all it needs in order to do that is establish cults to worship spirits and therefore create Infrastructure/Aether as a byproduct of them creating Essence

>>53845224
>Mages are more powerful by the virtue of versatility

It's an often made mistake that mages are 'jacks of all trades, masters of none'

>>53845324
It's more that their effects are easily applicable, rather than pre-made rotes with only a few potential uses. Their options grow exponentially with each new sphere level purchase.

>>53845224
>A Mage with prep could keep those spirits out from his sanctum with a ward
Wards aren't limited to places. A mage can put it on himself and become essentially immunized against any-and-all spirits thrown at him.

Even worse yet he could rig the Ward to turn those spirits back at the Garou.

Nasty business.

>>53845692
Could you stat that effect for me? Seems like an awesome thing to spring on my players. The pack has been harassing a hermetic who keeps coming to take a sip from their Caern every now and then.

>>53845692
My tech-themed Hermetic once had an army of sunlight based spirits constantly following him around.

Naturally the game involved Kindred.

>>53845692
I fucking hate contingencies because of shit like this. Why even attack a mage.

>>53846104

>>53845224
>A Virtual Adept can bankrupt an Elder who has hoarded his fortune for centuries over a weekend with Forces 3 and Correspondence 3, no matter how many SchreckNet goonies he has.

That is part of the issue with mage scaling. It doesn't really conciser much difficulty-wise other than 'Is it in my wheelhouse'. Like that example, it should be harder to wreck a well planned system with backups and redundancies than a guy who has no backups and got his password tattooed on his forehead.