Caves don't occur deeper than 3,000 meters in nature due

Magic

>>53769133
>Caves don't occur deeper than 3,000 meters in nature due to the pressure exerted by the earth at such depths
You're welcome to tell that to the King That Crawls.

Alien mining operations

A wizard did it.

A flat Earth where gravity isn't a thing

>in nature
Well there's your problem

>>53769209
Just don't dig too far eh?

>>53769213
Even in a fantasy setting you would still need some form of explanation

>>53769154
This, magic is all-pervasive and subtly effective to the point where it's an additional number in virtually any geological, astronomical or biological equation. This is a large reason why I don't try to go too deep into why certain fantastical phenomena happen and make them decently rare unless it's necessary, at which point I'll try and come up with something plausible within the realms of in-character scientific understanding.

>>53769173

He was in the points of light setting? Probably one of the cooler gods I have seen considering how he just thrashes madly around underground with fucked up legs and his blood gave life to the monsters in the underdark not to mention "The King that Crawls" just sounds fucking cool.

>>53769253

In my experience, trying to explain things in 'realistic' terms will just fuel player nitpicking.

Saying 'It's magic', or sticking to a metaphysical explanation works best.

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>>53769133
>How would you justify a under dark-esque series of caves and tunnels that goes deeper than this

You don't. You say "There is a cave system that... just keeps going past the limit. We have no idea how, or why, or what's past the 3,000 mark."

>>53769253
This is worth fleshing out, imagine a world where magic as a force naturally warps the world to be fantastic and grand, perhaps over exposure to magic might make a person believe they are the hero in a story?

>>53769133

The Earth surrounding the cave has enough Cavorite ore around it to counteract the high pressure, making it possible for the cave to be that deep.

>>53769245
Yeah magic.

So it super deep mining possible? Will we have to start to do more dangerous, extreme, insane operations into the bowels of the earth to rip it clean of more and more and more resources until we're finally wiped out?

>>53769419
What does the magic do that allows caves to form more than 3,000 meters deep?

>>53769448
I think we can build supports when mining that can support more wight than caves usually can

>>53769473
Disregard pressure, for starters

>>53769473

Everything it needs to

>>53769509
A cave filled with an approximately incompressible medium is already sufficient. Just pump your mine full of liquid and work in that. Similar things already allow us to extract otherwise unreachable oil sources.

>>53769133

Why do you assume gravity, pressure and so on work in a way that's analogous to reality? You're in a setting defined by elemental alchemy and mysticism, with divine creation and planes that completely defy rational analysis. Just because it seems to have similar results on the surface is no reason to assume it's the same all the way down. The very fact the underdark and similar exists can be taken as proof of this.

>>53769342
One of my favourite ways to flesh out the metaphysics of the setting is to simply say that physics exists exactly as it does in real life, but magic is another, new, and extremely important fundamental force that has subtly influenced absolutely everything, from quantum interactions to macro-astrological formations since the beginning of time, with higher concentrations creating stronger lapses in standard physics until it's dispersed.

>>53769537
Not to be an obstinate ass but why? fleshing out the explanation could give a lot of detail to the world

There is a portal to the Elemental Plane of Caves, where caves over different physical laws at the 3000m mark.

Alternatively a portal back to 100m so it really just FEELS like the caves go deeper and deeper

>>53769406
To be clear this isn't meant as a criticism of DnD, I just thought it would be interesting to see what different explanations people could come up with

>>53769602

Nobody knows. Maybe if you stop bothering the GM with questions and actually get on with adventuring, you'll have a better chance of finding out.

>>53769625
I wish I was a player, I am my groups perma-GM

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>>53769133
Gigantic crystals form support columns for the caverns.

Adamatine veins provide unseen support in the earth for the caverns.

The sides of the caverns have been treated magically by the secretions of the dholes and bholes that made them.

In other words, ANYTHING.

>>53769245
Why?

>>53770048
Autism demands rigid rules and definitions of everything. Mystery and disorder are anathema, to be hated and screamed and screamed and SCREAMED at until they get their way and the hard numbers make them feel safe again.

>>53770074
No one here is screaming

>>53770074
Not every setting has to be fully detailed and explained but what's wrong with having a more detailed a fleshed out setting?

>>53769234
No! Am progress!

>>53769234
It would be interesting if an empire or something executed people by throwing them out the bottom of the world

>>53769133
I'd post that "it depends on the setting" pic but someone already posted it

>>53770257
I'm guessing OP is fishing for explanations for a home brew setting

>>53769133
3000 meters is deep enough.

>>53769133
3,000 meters of cave isn't enough for you?

>>53770470
No, for a reason that's hard to explain it's not

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>>53769133
I remove the page in the geology book that says:
>Caves don't occur deeper than 3,000 meters in nature due to the pressure exerted by the earth at such depths.

>>53770541
Why are you so upset? it's not like OP is shitting on people for having less realistic settings

>>53770470
The Underdark reaches depths of 10 miles, which is 16,093 meters deep. Over 5 times as deep as the deepest naturally occuring caves in the real world. OP is asking how such a thing or its equivalent could be explained.

>>53770470
>so fucking deep

>>53769133
I know the word autism gets thrown around a lot on the Internet, but this time I genuinely think it's real.

>>53770637
First day on /tg/? Autistically delving into the logic of fantasy or other stuff is a staple of the board.

>>53770203
Under rated post

>>53770637
Nah, this time is fine. It would be autism if he was screaming something about how D&D is unrealistic because the underdark is deeper than 3000 meters then it would be autism. Just coming up with explanations for fantastical elements isn't autistic, it's just worldbuilding.

Honestly, the "It's fantasy, I don't have to explain anything" crowd is just as bad.

>>53770704
It's not very interesting desu. It's an answer to a question no one ever asked and no one really needs to know to enjoy the setting. Hopefully.

>>53770704
Honestly I can understand why some people get upset at trying to explain fantastical elements as it's been done poorly a lot, that being said OP doesn't seem autistic and deserves better than "it's magic I don't got to explain shit"

>>53770612
>The Underdark reaches depths of 10 miles, which is 16,093 meters deep.
That's insane, but the writers obviously have no sense of scale.

>>53770771
I think the idea is that an explanation would lead to more interesting world building, for example if there's an ore that provides the necessary support to prevent the caves from collapsing you suddenly have a rare ore with interesting properties native to the deeper caves

>>53770771
Things like these add flavor to the setting, and it helps with immersion.

No explaining unimportant details is fine, you obviously can't explain everything, but explaining unimportant details in terms of in-setting rules usually helps the players understand the rules better and maybe they can come to utilize these factoids in their plans.

Let me try to present an example:

A player asks the GM how are these caves deep underground possible. The GM answers "It's fantasy, I don't have to explain" and that's the end of the discussion, not very interesting. On the other hand, the GM might instead answer "Mana runs through crystal columns and fills in the gaps, providing the columns with great strength" which then becomes information that the player can use in a plan, for example to disrupt the mana in some columns to collapse the ceiling in a section of the caves.

In the end, worldbuilding details like that add a lot to the immersion and make the world feel more like a world and less like a game.

I'm of the opinion that if the players ask a question about the world, the GM should never answer with "That's just how it is" or "Doesn't matter, it's fantasy" because the only thing this achieves is remind the players that they're in a game and is in no way interesting. The better option, if the GM doesn't have an answer ready is to bullshit his way through an explanation (and write it down for further reference).

>>53769133
a plane thats inverted. Instead of a ball where people live on the outside, its a sphere and people live on the inside. The sphere is so massive that it seems flat and clouds obscure the horizon. The sun is actually a duo of magical entities that are bright and dim respectively and emit a sort of reverse gravity that pushes things away so people dont "fall" towards the center of the sphere

It's the membranous plane that separates the Prime Material and the Elemental Plane of Earth.

Past a certain depth, the Elemental Plane of Earth exerts increasing amounts of pressure on the Prime Material. The result is a sub-plane of the Prime Material that is closely associated with the Elemental Plane of Earth, acting as a barrier that prevents it from directly leaking into the Prime Material.

To extrapolate on this, the Prime Material has three other membranous sub-planes associated with each of the other Elemental Planes, where physics doesn't function as it truly should.

>>53769133

The God of Caves decided that law was stupid and unfairly hampered his domain and repealed it. Next.

>>53771234
But the God of Science decided to reintegrate it.

Fuck your god

>>53769314
I like to come up with something cool for me, but remind the players that while there might be wizards researching cave formation, their characters wouldn't know what happened or why.

>>53770986
At the absolute worst, the GM can give a "unfortunately nobody knows how X works, the secret seems to have been lost to time" or something similar, giving an in-setting answer of vagueness, but that's just as a last resort. Giving actual answers is always better.

>>53771349
I mean if the player's character has an academic background they should know something is up, high-school level physics would let you know that a cave can support only so much weight

>>53771459

Only if high school physics applies to the fantasy setting. Which it doesn't, necessarily.

>>53769133

But this would only be true for a planet with the same circumference, mass and density as Earth. Why would a fantasy world have any of these in common?

>>53771446
>Giving actual answers is always better
Yeah, the caveat being that even if there is an answer the PCs might not know it.

What I do in those cases is have an answer ready anyway, but I only tell the players what they character would know or deduce, and then if they decide to inquire further, they may come across a useful answer.

Also, if I know the answer myself, even if I don't tell the players, I can use it for the game in case the players do something that would have unintended side effects,like a cave collapse because they accidentally drained the mana from those crystals, for example.

>>53771515

Beyond that, why would a fantasy world care about its circumference, mass and diameter, necessarily?

>>53771086
That doesn't make sense, by that logic caves would be even less deep since the plane of earth constantly tries to close any non solid gap.

>>53771515
Because things have the same weight in the setting which suggests that the gravity of the planet is the same

>>53771550
There is nothing saying that a fantasy pound is equal to a real world pound

>>53771550

Why? People observed things falling for centuries before gravity became understood and accepted. The exact same surface level details could be based on an entirely different set of principles with very different implications.

>>53771487
>>53771534
The general rule for fantasy is that if it's not explicitly mentioned as being different, it's the same as our world.

Thus, even if the functional details of gravity are different, it would still be safe to assume that it's 9.81 m/s^2 and that a 50 meter fall would kill an regular human. Similarly, Newton's laws of motion would apply the same in most cases, aside from explicitly mentioned exceptions.

Just saying "It's fantasy, so no real world rules apply" is exceedingly unhelpful and hinders players.

That aside, even if our high school physics don't apply at all, a fantasy world would have it's own version of high school physics in which an educated character would know.

>>53769133
naturally occurring portals that artificially expand the underground into other cave systems and even other planes.

>>53771579
If you don't say that a fantasy pound is different to a real world pound, it is assumed that a fantasy pound is equal to a real world pound.

>>53771588

I've always thought it more that, unless otherwise stated, it is similar enough to be analogous, not absolutely the same.

>>53771550

Are they though? Consider strength weight limits vs what's actually achievable.

If you're going to have a legitimate explanation for why caves can go so deep you might as well have a legitimate explanation for how strength 20 and beyond works.

This is a prime example of a slippery slope.

That's why dwarf live in mountains bucko.
They don't dig 3000m down. But thousands of meters mostly horizontally.

>>53771579
The weight of a fantasy pound is usually treated as roughly equivalent to real pound, for example the amount of weight that the average person can handle is roughly the same

>>53771617
Have you tried not playing DnD?

>>53771617

Which of course then gets you looking at non magical monstrous creatures with entirely impossible physical makeups, especially amongst the flying and swimming creatures.

>>53769133
Rule of cool

>>53771617
OP didn't state that this was set in DnD and besides strength rules are a part of the systems rules not necessarily canon to the setting

>>53771658

Post another setting then. It'll either be A) Realistic enough that a cave that deep shouldn't be in the setting or B) fictional enough that an explanation doesn't need to be realistic.

>>53771615
That's exactly what I said.

It's the same in the sense that if something would work in the real world, it would work the same in the fantasy world unless explicitly stated. The underlying reasons might be entirely different but that hardly matters.

In effect: The "What" is the same, but the "why" might be different.

However, I'd go as far as to say that if there are no details implying that the "why" is different, then the "why" is also the same.

Looking at gravity: If you state that the world is flat and nothing else, I would expect gravity to still accelerate me a 1g, but why gravity works like that on a flat world is different. On the other hand, if you don't state anything about the world, I will assume that the world is a sphere of about the same mass as Earth and gravity works the same way.

Basically my point is: Anything not explicitly stated as different is the same. Also, as a player, if you spring those differences on me in the middle of a plan I made because you didn't introduce the differences beforehand and I assumed everything was the same, and those differences fuck me over, I will be upset.

>>53771699
Secret option C there is a logical explanation as to why the cave is that deep

>>53770203
You go too far!

>>53771720

And that 'logical explanation' has no real world equivalent, making it only as real as fictional elements in the setting. Option B.

>>53771521
Usually if the PCs ask a question they shouldn't know the answer to yet, you can deflect it by saying something like "hmm yeah, that IS wierd, isn't it?", which prompts them to think deeper about it and want to investigate the mystery.

For anyone actually using gravity as a means to justify something like this: how many of you actually calculate how much heavier your party's gear would be in a situation like this?

>>53771710

I guess it's different in my groups. I always point out that the fantasy world is formed of the four elements and such, and while basic mechanical physics might make more sense, anything more complex will not. You're better off coming up with a metaphorical/metaphysical plan based on the themes and fantastical nature of the setting than applying any sort of real world scientific principle, because the latter is completely out of theme with the setting as a whole.

>>53771734
>doesn't need to be realistic
Maybe I am misinterpreting you but I believe you said specifically that any reason why a cave would be that deep isn't realistic, a logical explanation would contradict that

>>53771796

Do you think slapping 'logical' on something fantastical magically makes it realistic?

>>53771781
I mean in this case a cave collapsing because the weight of the overhead rock and earth is basic mechanical physical

>>53771822

No? If the caves are a matter of thematic and metaphorical significance, then that is more important in context. And, given the given example was the underdark, this absolutely applies.

>>53771811
The explanation doesn't have to be fantastically magical, simply shifting the composition of the planets crust could create deeper caves for example

>>53769133
>Dorfs gonna dorf
>wiped out by whatever they dug up
>while the buildings and such are all pulverized to dust by the angry whateverthefuck, the dwarven mastercrafted tunnels and great halls stand the test of time

>replace dorfs with your great race of choice

>>53771846

Which still leads to the problem of: how many of you are actually causing your PCs to feel the effects of increased gravity this much closer to the center of their planet?

Trying to come up with serious answers to these kinds of questions only invites more questions. At some point you are going to have to settle for a hand wave.

>>53771833
Sorry if I misunderstood your post, my point was that a cave collapsing to due to much weight was basic enough physics that it's kind of a head scratcher as to why the underdark hasn't collapsed, not that this can't be ignored in favor of theme and coolness

>>53771940

I'm saying that, by the very nature of the world, the thematic relevance and significance of Underdark can be the actual, in universe reason why it hasn't collapsed.

>>53771916
Actually as you get closer to the center of the planet you experience less gravity, that and questions like these can lead to good world building, I can understand if that's not appealing to you though

>>53771967
OK, that's actually pretty cool, this kind of makes me want to run a game where in universe theme tone and storytelling tropes are the main laws that govern reality

>>53769133
May as well work out the kinks in my setting
1/2

Prana is the primordial element from which all others are made. It is also know as life-force or soulstuff, because souls are self-contained and organized acumulations of prana. Any and all sentient beings have souls*, while animals have proto-souls. Having a soul in the first place demands that something has its own name, making it distinct enough that it may acquire spiritual links with other soul-possessing beings. Such links are called "ley lines", happening whenever one develops feelings of any kind upon something**. Prana flows through ley lines***.

The planet in question qualifies. Known as Ghara by most of its inhabitants, all of which either developed strong feelings upon it. Fondness of one's homeland, hating a war-torn kingdom, wishing to conquer your neighbors' lands, all this makes a ley line ultimately connected to the planet itself. The daily routine of one billion soul-possessing mortals sustains Ghara's Soul, which is further strengthened by being worshipped as a earth-goddess/father-god/Land Spirit by most of them.

Gravity is not an effect of mass, but of prana. Ghara's Soul is the greater concentration of prana other than the Sun. Its cosmic purpose is to make itself suitable for the living of soul-bearing creatures. Its own survival also depends on having souls linked to it.

That's why gravity is uniform throughout the crust: more living space to eventually house soul-bearing beings. Dwarfs are the most common example of this.

>>53772083
2/2
That's why certain asteroids and small planetary bodies have a gravity far greater than their mass, while some desert and dead planets have a pull as weak as the moon and are currently slowly desintegrating.

Theoretically, a nameless and unfeeling being could be free of gravity, but its metaphysical make-up would be so distorted as to make it dangerous. Ghosts such as the death cloud are posited by some scholars as proof of this.

*Except for demons and devils; their cosmical existence is parasitic, feeding upon the prana of existence. They favor souls because those are a concentration of refined prana, but some demons are known to engage in grand-scale draining of prana from the environment itself. Wastes such as the Unquiet Lands are places which never recovered from their invasion 500 years ago.

**This phenomena is also responsible for generating new prana which the ley web conducts into the stars, where it is refined and partially transformed into the other elements. Sunlight is refined prana.

***A soul can be thought of as a single ley line formed into a dense knot, whose arrangement is so unique as to codify the memories, personality and even physical characteristics of the corresponding being. It also takes the place of DNA.

Holy fuck, the autism in this thread...I j-just wanted a comfy thred about caves, dammit.

>>53772136
Be the change you want to see in this thread

>>53772083
Do you mind explaining more about your setting? It seems interesting

>>53771781
>I always point out
See, here's the thing. You always point out. That's the important part. The most important part, really.

Always point out differences.

>>53772136
By /tg/ standards, this thread is pretty autism free, unless you consider discussions about worldbuilding autism.

>>53772254
There have been a lot of people complaining about detailed explanations in fantasy settings which is annoying but otherwise it's nice that no ones bitching about politics or which system is best

>>53772052
You can do that right now, it's called "Every Fantasy Setting Ever Made, You Autistic Fuck".

>>53769741
>meth.jpg

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>>53772153
But I know nothing of caves! The 3000 m deep limit deal blew my mind! I want to learn about caves!! I have no contribution to offer...erp - mebe one contribution that is threadly.

>>53769133
Once you go deep enough you cross over into another dimension, and you're no longer going down, you're going up. Pray that you never make it all the way to the surface.

>>53772289
Why are you upset? He's hasn't been a dick to you and besides not every setting in universe runs on storytelling logic, a lot of low fantasy is at least ostensibly realistic

>>53772303
What kind of stuff do you know about? maybe post about the overlap between caves and that, for example if you know about biology maybe talk about the kind of animals you would find in a large cave system

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>>53769234
>>53770203
>>53770668
>>53771727

>>53772334
Because this is exactly the kind of autist prick that slows down my game and pisses off me and his fellow players by showing more intrest in a slightly deep cave than the fucking Great Dragon in it that's currently eating the mage.

And you know what? Its not important after the session, either. Or between sessions, for that matter. Its 4,000 meters deep because I wanted an impressive number. That's the reason it can exist. Deal with it.

>>53770612
well, in faerun it actually goes down even farther than that in some places

>>53772416
He's not in your game and no where has he criticized you for the way you ran your game, hell he complimented your setting as "pretty cool" I get that he reminds you some assholes in your game but your you're getting mad over nothing, he seems to have more tact then the people who keep derailing your game

>>53772454
Source? The Forgotten Realms wiki only cites the Lowerdark going as deep as 10 miles.

>>53770203
Probably what the Dwarves in Moria thought right up until they accidentally released the Balrog.

>>53772454
* Reminds you of some
** Delete your

>>53772530
Responded to the wrong post?

>>53772578
Yeah I meant
>>53772483

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>>53769209
A hollow earth with gravity is a fucked up thing!

>>53772234
Sure. I just don't know where to start, it's not like any part is interesting to everyone, even me.

Lets see:

-Any souls with enough links can become a nexus. Those are the cores of the local ley web. In-game, they are seen as nature spirits, kami or even as gods by people of the region. Powerful adventurers, ancient trees and cities are some examples of nexus. You can barter with a nexus for it to teleport you through its ley web.

-The actual gods must be powerful beings which fit into the mold of the one of the archetypes. This both makes them much more powerful but also responsible for an aspect of existence. This responsability manifests as an instinct they can't go against. The way they conform to it varies, two gods of death may behave quite diferently. Said archetypes are based on Jung.

-Teleportation goes through ley lines. Travels to rescue a deceased soul so it returns to its body as well.

-There are no D&D planes, having planets instead. Most planets have ley lines between themselves, so powerful teleportation spells are equivalent to D&D's planar travel magic. One particular nation has a small fleet of leyships which use ley lines as sci-fi hyperspace, having an artificial nexus instead of a warp drive.

>>53772052
Check Discworld.

>>53772502
the wiki is trash
find a pdf of the underdark book
ch'chitl, the kingdom below, is a mind flayer realm 18 miles under waterdeep
then there's lorosfyr, which is a great vault (underdark canyon) an average of 10 miles WIDE, and rumored to be 40 miles deep in some places (in the book "final gate", the protagonist goes there and theres a part where the cleric casts a light spell on a copper coin and throws it over the edge, and it just keeps going and going and going for minutes and they all basically take sanity damage from it)

>>53772530
????

>>53772646
See >>53772594

>>53769133
Gravity is weaker the deeper you go.

>>53772682
It already is

>>53772813
Gravity-ception because after certain point it gets stronger, then weaker again.

>>53772052

I tend to assume this as my default.

Look at any random fantasy setting and you'll notice a dozen things that are utterly, blatantly unrealistic. I could either waste time trying to make up reasons why they all make sense, or I could embrace the themes of the universe and accept that not every setting needs to adhere to 'realism'. Thematic and metaphorical underpinnings function just as well as physics-esque ones.

>>53772631
Are the religions of the worlds aware of the inner workings of prana? I could imagine knowing that gods are just souls with a lot of links kind of takes the holiness out of it

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OP I too would like a comfy cave thread. Failing that, a spooky cave thread.

I have always wanted to do a game centered around underground shit. And trapping the players there, and seeing if they can build a society down there in the dark. Like the sun goes supernova or something, or the surface is taken over by X bad thing. And everyone just has to crawl into the caves and return from whence life came, degenerating into cave people. Mite b fun.

>>53772915
people would need a light source or some way of seeing in the dark, I can imagine light becoming very important to the various cultures

>>53769133
How would you know how deep your are in the first place?

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>>53772902
Most of the gods themselves aren't aware of it. They understand it in the same sense that fishers understand the ocean. What I wrote is what the oceanographer would know instead. The god of knowledge discovered much of it, but that's because it is part of its divine instinct, to study and comprehend things.

As for holiness, everybody knows that two of the gods of the main pantheon were mortals once, and the goddess of sacrifice makes no secret of the teeth marks the demon invasion 500 years ago left on her. The aproach here is derived from how ancient greeks and such saw their gods. No one expects a god to be perfect, omniscient and all -powerful in the first place.

The magitech nation with leyships is the most powerful of the world because its founder was a genius which figured out "sacrophysics" after researching the hole in reality which demons came through. Even there, most of the people don't get all this. The ones that do don't think of it as "less holy". It is as mind-blowing as actual science can be, and having strong feelings about it is key to its understanding.


>>53772915
>a spooky cave thread
>game centered around underground shit
Read pic related for ideas.

>>53773192
Not him but I've been working on a completely underground setting so the book seems really useful, thanks

>>53771579
>There is nothing saying that a fantasy pound is equal to a real world pound

>Sure, the Player's Handbook SAYS this character is "human", but it never actually specifies what a "human" is in this setting!

>>53772915
>>53772981
I had an idea about that. The primary form of currency was candles. A candle had multiple purposes. Standard amount was an hour of burn time, roughly 1SP in DnD terms. The wax came from a cave creature's excreations, and the wick was made of a lichen. It makes it so 1. Time is literally money. 2. A well lit home is literally burning money 3. Being wealthy literally makes you safer.

I was inspired by a book I read years ago, talking about this tiny tribe in the middle of the amazon. They were a tribe with no mysticism or religion. Their lives were too short and dangerous due to where they lived, so they practiced a very "in-the-moment" sort of humanism. They did not have a phrase like "goodnight", with their closest equivalent being "Don't sleep, there are snakes". Sleeping too soundly can mean your death by fucking snakes. I wanted to take that concept and altered it to "Don't sleep, there are spiders", because I like the idea of a yorkie sized spider stealing your infant in the night.

>>53773781
The best part is that the wild life can see in the dark while you can't, although that also begs the question as to why the people haven't evolved to see in the dark

>>53769133
don't ever mention that it's not possible in the first place

>>53774095
my concept is that it has only been a few hundred years below ground. Maybe a max of 500. Like a few generations for even dwarves. Dont let elves live for millenia though, cause it ruins some mystery. Or no standard fantasy races. whichever.

>>53774109
If you answered the question it might have interesting implications

>>53769133
The eternal war between the spirits of earth and the spirits of darkness has not yet been won. Sure, the earth is winning but the darkness is fightier here than it could ever be in the real world.

>>53774136
That makes sense although it sucks that it means that the history of the underground is relatively short, then again maybe the various races reliance on artificial light sources means that seeing in the dark isn't selected hard enough for to naturally evolve

>>53773192
I don't have anything to say but your setting is neat as fuck, anon.

>>53769133
They are not caves. They are burrows.

Whatever bored out the tunnels used a chemical reaction which strengthens the rock face to such a degree that the "caves" don't collapse. So enormous caverns are also possible.

>>53774213
I might have to use this

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>>53774203
Thanks dude!


I can't help but list more unique things about it:
>dwarven geomancy enables underground architecture: they cultivate geodes into city-sized chambers with crystalline roads, buildings and specific crystals lining lavaducts, turning heat into light.
>international corpse smuggling fuels the war machine of the BBEG lich and his crawling undersea necropolis, partially made of rotten flesh. Besides other things, it uses necromancy to create explosive undead, including whales.
>imperial bureaucracy uses around 30.000 seers to find out the worth of your taxes a month from now
>a nation of megatherium herders based on gaucho romanticism.
>universal Soldier-esque frankstein-like steampunk cyborgs opress the populace serving a titanic analogic computer.
>sea and moon goddess is a giant mermaid whose fins generate the sea currents. She spawns spell pearls and her bellybutton is a maelstrom leading to inseide the moon. It is hollow.
>orcs are unplayable bone-scarred necrogenic apes.
>Hobgoblins take their place as barbarian race, although focused on composite bows and dinosaurs.
>Slavery is legal.
>spontaneous combustion is diagnosed as a disease.
>two gods don't exist 364 days of the year.
>Repetition muskets.
>if a vampire kills the one which turned him, he stops being dependant on blood and may create a new bloodline with unique characteristics. A lot of types based on real world vampire folklore are justified by this.
>therapeutic curses help against vices.
>giant snakes made of corindon.
>sea centipedes with fins instead of legs.
>sultans are djinns and the superior caste of their land.
>mountain dwarfs build citadels of pykrete.
>two unique races, one is pic related.
>kobolds (named zitai) are dragon larvae, one in a million actually evolves into a dragon.
>the above invented handheld rocket launcher pods.
>dwarven have war shovels and steel bows.
>samurai use firearms.

>>53774566
As much as I want to shill cave setting and fish for ideas, this is actually more interesting, if you feel like it could you continue?

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>>53774645
Have to sleep now. Can do tomorrow. Think of something you want me to detail further if you want. Races, creatures etc.

>>53769133
To be honest, most of my cavern networks tend to seldom extend more than 1000 meters down.

>>53772502
There are spots so deep in the underdark that you fall for days until you fall your way into the abyss or the realms of shadow.

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Here's a fun idea:
They can see in the dark through echolocation, but the mental concentration it takes makes it so that you can't do anything else besides maybe walk while you're doing it and you only get a freeze frame/snapshot image anyway.

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>>53769133
This thread should like this.

>>53769448
Yeah. The deepest mine in world is some 3,000-odd meter deep gold mine in Africa. As I recall, the only life support the miners required was the standard high volume ventilation. Of course, that really depends on the type of mine and its geological location, not its depth.

As for the potential depth of naturally occurring caves, that's governed by the surrounding geology with a potential maximum depth of 5 miles (solid granite. The 5 mile figure comes from the protected maximum height of a solid granite cliff before it collapses under its own weight. Obviously, caves and cliffs are subject to different stresses, meaning that the maximum depth could be much less or much greater than stated). The 3000 meter figure offered by OP is just him being a faggot. A horrible, terrible, disgusting faggot.

>>53769245
>Even in a fantasy setting you would still need some form of explanation
I'm all for not just running a setting according to "lol, I dunno", but the cosmology of high fantasy games like D&D are so different from what we have in the real world, that caves going deeper than they do in real life isn't even an issue. I mean, there are so incredibly many things that blatantly defy science. Mythology is the basis of such settings, and mythology fucks science in the ass. Fucking Atlas holds up the sky. Explain that one.

>>53769133
The Incredible energy of the expected pressure is bled off into the weave of magic. Why? Piss off an Earth Mage and find out.

>>53776451
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave
See the section on formation

>>53769133
Nine thousand feet isn't deep enough?

Obviously have a less dense world durrrr

The world is riddled with holes, so it's not actually as dense as it seems. Gravity is maintained by a sun inside a hollow inner earth.

I know it doesn't make sense, but you can eat my asshole if you start arguing that shit seriously. "Premise" is a good enough reason to hand wave something. It's like complaining about how zombies work in a zombie setting. You can complain about how governments fall or how people survive, but a fundamental caveat of the premise is where you suspend your disbelief.

>>53778707
Most zombie settings have a more fleshed out explanation of zombies than simply telling the viewer to suspend their disbelief

>>53778813
Well yeah, they say "it's a virus" and maybe they imply some greater knowledge by having a man in a lab coat technobabble at the main characters. A virus can't actually make a human rise from the dead and start killing people unless you destroy the brain, but we accept it based on the small amount of connecting information we are provided with. Hell, some don't even bother with that. Night of the Living Dead didn't and it still works. There is a fundamental change from reality allowing the story to take place that the reader/watcher/player accepts that allows everything else to proceed.

In a setting with an Underdark, that assumption is that somehow the Underdark works. They don't ever have to have that reason for why it works explained to them so long as it's internally consistent enough that it seems like there is a reason.

>>53769133
Less pressure.

>>53778885
I just wanted to point out that you need an explanation for this stuff but rereading your post that you gave one, I shouldn't be posting this early in the morning

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>>53770203
You fucker

>>53778885
"it's a virus" is still more information than nothing. It lets you know that it can be transmitted, that there could be a cure and immunity, that hacking off a limb can potentially save you from infection, and a ton of other stuff.

In the end, beyond accepting the basic premise, suspension of disbelief is the author's responsibility and their skill can ruin or enhance it. It's the same when you GM.

>>53778929
Obviously it's on the author to provide a world compelling and consistent enough to create suspension of disbelief, but you also only need a very limited amount of information to effectively do that. A shitload of caves existing is enough information to effectively suspend the disbelief of the vast majority of people if the content is good. Only those interested in intentionally picking at stuff will ask how it geologically functions in the midst of a story being told.

>>53778963
That or the tone a work is shooting for is supposed to be more down to earth and realistic and so a more in depth explanation adds to the tone

>>53778963
>Only those interested in intentionally picking at stuff
Or, as explained earlier in this thread, those interested in using something about the caves to their advantage, for example causing a collapse.

With a book or movie, you know exactly where the story is going, so you can provide just the right amount of information, not too much, not too little. However, when you GM, you don't know exactly what route your players are going to take, so it's best to be ready to answer more questions about the world than you otherwise would have.

To follow up on the zombie example, in a zombie movie you can get away with just saying "There's zombies," but in a zombie game, your players might want to look for a cure, so you have to be ready for that.

>>53770203
ME AM PLAY GODS

>>53770621
Do you like what you see?

>>53779002
It's a matter of degrees, I suppose. If a game is about people surviving in a house against a zombie onslaught "there are zombies" is all the information they'll really need. If they're government agents trying to stop the spread, then that's totally different.

In the same vein, if you're a bunch of pulpy explorers or D&D adventurers, you don't need much more explanation for how caves work other than they do and they behave like regular caves somehow. If you're playing a hard sci-fi game about space prospecting then it's probably gonna require some more explanation you're right but even then the information is still not gonna be that great given my players are not actually space prospectors and the game is not one to one simulationist.

The amount of information required is always gonna be relatively little.

>>53769133
>fantasy setting
>real-life physics
Choose one.

>>53779554
Usually unless otherwise stated in fantasy the rules of physics are the same so that readers or players can draw conclusions about what does and doesn't work

>>53769245
the subterranean creatures could just dig the tunnels

>>53779554
faggy ass faggots in every fuckin thread, i swear
you'd think with that much dick in your mouths you wouldnt be able to say so much stupid shit

Any idea how you could map out a large cave system? How would people underground navigate the cave system?

>>53781455
Geomancy? Sensing tectonic shifts? A bat swarm with magnetic senses?

I have a nomad confederation use the latter to find iron ore deposits.

>>53783086
But how would you write that down? what would the maps look like?

>>53769133
It's not on Earth.

>>53784174
I don't see how that would solve the problem

>>53784391
It's some planet in some universe where magic permeates the very fabric of existence. Our known rules of physics on Earth may not apply.

>>53781455
>How would people underground navigate the cave system?
Dwarves use special milestones along their underground trade routes, each indicating the adjacent ones. Some are inside a trade post, same are big enough to BE the trade post.
Away from the dwarven routes, you're on your own. Many species simply use highly developed memories.

>>53784453
You still need the laws of physics for the fantasy world to make sense, the reason why caves collapse past 3000 meters is because they can't support the weight, if the the laws of physics aren't the same basic stuff like how much something weighs or how much weight something can carry before it breaks is thrown out of wack

>>53769245
Yeah heres my explenation: in my world pressure doesnt crush the caves shut.

>>53769602
I dunno, im not a geologist. I give you what I want to create.

>>53784693
Fair enough, it's your world it can be as detailed as you like

>>53769602
Does real world have answers to everything and anything? Why does observing an electron alter its behavior? Why, why?

>>53776451
and the deepest hole dug by russians was like 5 or 7 kilometers

>>53769317
That's where Nito and the funky bunch hang out

>>53784862
Yes even if the answers aren't known, that and why doesn't the cave collapse from the weight of the earth above it is a pretty simple question

>>53769133
Magic and shit

>>53769209
So, real life basically.

>>53784606

But you don't, though. You can have a universe with a completely different set of fundamental ideas that only resembles those of our universe at a surface level, for ease more than anything else, where basic and intuitive things work the same way but beyond that the actual function of the setting could be wildly different.

A lot of fantasy settings even acknowledge or explore this for somethings, and then seem to forget it when dealing with others. It's the inconsistency that creates confusion.

>>53785187
I mean I'd argue that the cave collapsing under the weight of earth above it is pretty basic and intuitive but you are right that just because the physics seems to match doesn't mean they do, honestly I'd just be happy with a consistent world with good explanations for stuff even if it's not based in real world physics

>>53784862
>>53784862
Ahem - because to 'see' requires some elementary particle; since electrons are also elementary particles, observing one means hitting it with an equivalent object, which will, like billiard balls, send it spinning off randomly into space.
All of which is completely irrelevant in the underdark and utterly unknown in any fantasy setting.
/thread

>>53784606
If you should ever find yourself stranded in a far-flung fantasy realm, it can be helpful to consider your predicament scientifically. That is, approach situations with as few assumptions as possible, accept solid evidence when it is presented, and always be willing to admit you are wrong, and adjust your mindset accordingly.

This is actual science, which a tragically high number of strandees confuse with "acting like the world they're stranded in adheres to the exact same physical principles as their own". More than a few survivalists have been lead astray by compasses going haywire, several fledgling empires have been cut short when their founders discovered (too late) that their guns didn't work, and many, many would-be adventurers have gone to their graves saying "no dragon could fly with wings that smaAAAAAAAAAAAH!"

Don't be like those poor souls. Be smart. Be safe. Assume nothing.

>>53779183
You're mostly right. The only mistake you're making is that you think that information is only for the players.

Worldbuilding information is more for the GM than for the players, to ensure that he can provide a consistent and interesting experience to the players. Even if the players never directly ask certain questions (or can't know the answer to them), it's useful for the GM to know the answer in order to decide what happens.

>>53769133
Three kilometers isn't deep enough?

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>>53787038
Jesus, you're still beating this dead horse? Go outside, enjoy the day. Get some fresh air: you need it. Talk to someone in real life. Have a laugh with friends. Just - just get yourself some help.

>>53787112
Nah, I just woke up so I'm continuing the conversation before I go to work.

Being condescending doesn't help your point any.

>>53771263
The god of caves and the god of magic stabbed the god of science and burried the body somewhere.

There's a cult of the dead god who are trying to resurrect him though.

>>53787038
...Or you could just do whatever makes for the most entertaining and engaging story.

>>53769133
ocean caves and time made them inland. Something something something, ancestral home of desert nomads so that's how all the water got removed.

>>53769133
The underdark is in fact a parallel plane like the shadowfell and feywild, accessed unpredictably when traveling deep enough. The weight of the terrain doesn't effect it because it isn't really there and doesn't follow those rules anymore.

>>53787208
These two are not mutually exclusive.

Having some explanation usually makes for a more compelling story than screaming away any inconsistencies with "it's fantasy."

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>>53787137
Not condescension, anon: genuine concern. You have continuously ducked both logic AND earnest fantasy 'explanations', only to repeatedly return to your original, unaltered position.
You want justifications for super-deep caves. You have been told that you don't NEED such justifications for a fantasy game, and have been given numerous suggestions in case you choose to ignore the first advice. But you ignore all of it and keep swinging back to your original question, just to keep the thread active.
Are you seriously this bored? Or are you retarded?? Or just a baiting troll??? You're one of the three...

>>53787311
Condescension, anon. Follow your own advice. You're angry over nothing. Also learn to read, it might help you not look like a faggot in the future.

I'm not even the cave guy and I didn't start this thread, and this isn't about caves anymore. I came into this thread much later to talk about the need for explanations in fantasy.

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>>53787298
See? You ignored a bunch more good explanations, just to keep beating your dead horse. Fuck off, troll!

>>53787360
I wish this was still about caves

>>53787534
Sadly, it was never about caves....

>>53788100
As OP I can say that it was, I basically started this thread to get ideas for world building

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>>53772290
>Finally, I have all the meth in the world but I still a void in my heart.

>>53770203
Nice

>>53770074
the point of such caves is that you don't know how the fuck such a thing is possible

>>53769133
NO PRESSURE
THE EARTH IS HOLLOW ANYWAY
TECTONIC MOVEMENT IS CAUSED BY TINY PORTALS TO THE ELEMENTAL PLANE OF EARTH EITHER EXTRUDING OR ACCEPTING EARTH

>>53789117
Why all caps?

>>53789140
I INSULTED THE WRONG SAINT SEVENTEEN YEARS AGO
IT IS MY CURSE TO BEAR

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>>53789117
>>53789168

We've all done things we regret Anon

Instead of being some molten core surrounded by earth surrounded by surface and then atmosphere and then nothing you have some molten core surrounded by atmosphere and then surface and then earth and then more earth forever.

In addition to light and heat the thing in the centre radiates some magical force that accelerates stuff outwards so you have a sort of gravity.

>>53769133
Purple worms.

>>53789632
Society constantly hitting enlightenment then collapsing when they discover this wretched cosmology and plunge themselves back into the darkness to escape it.

>>53769133
Why you need caves deeper than 3,000 meters anyway? That's plenty enough for anyone already.

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>>53792342
I'm imagining that flip the boat scene in Pirates only instead it's "Down is Out".

>>53770203
Kek

>>53792294
Sounds like a sex thing.

>>53769133
Dungeons are incredibly powerful magic based lifeforms, and almost all other monsters are merely extensions of them;

http://gameswithothers.blogspot.co.nz/2013/06/other-frontiers-dungeons-megadungeons.html

>>53775263
that guy looks like a He-Man character in all the best ways

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>>53795184
Hadn't thought of that.

It does fit.

I would ignore that claim because I'm not a cuck and don't believe everything that's thrown at me, and add whatever the fuck I wanted to my setting.

>>53769133
> Artificial caves dug by dwarven (or whatever suits the setting) miners who reinforced it with high tech bla bla bla
> Giant worms who dissolve the earth in front of them, digesting it and excreting it along the cave walls as mucous that dries diamond hard to reinforce the caves around them.
> Some sort of magic, made up stone filled with tunnels or whatever.
There's plenty of possibilities but as with any fiction it requires some level of willingness to accept that is not real

>>53776637

This