What's the one RPG system you hate the most? I'm not

>>53601052
D&D, of course, but for hardmode...
Dark Heresy. I see absolutely no redeeming qualities to it.

>>53601052

Conspirancy X

Great setting, the worst goddamn system i ever touched.

Luckily it was very conversion friendly toward a slightly modified version of the storyteller system.

>>53601052
3.PF

>Hard mode: no edition of D&D.
Okay...

Well, that would have to be either Dungeon World or Double Cross, because I got suckered into actually paying for those. Not sure which counts, because I did manage to get some value out of DW and much of my hate for DX is directed at the ludicrously shoddy localization job rather than the system itself.

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>>53601052
Nifty one-shot systems that work great up until the second session when it turns gangrenous and the flesh slides away revealing the mass of broken shards of bone that hold it up. It may even allegedly have some degree of level progression, doesn't matter. They fall apart before you're even done with what they explicitly say you can do, leaving a mess of broken mechanics.

>>53601052

Mouseguard. We've got one dude in the group who always wants to start a game.

The strange thing is I really loved the Redwall series when I was a kid. It's just.. playing mice? really?

A long time ago, it was Exalted, because it is some really offensively awful shit when you think about it. But, I've come to terms with how masturbatory it is and how it's all the worst kind of faux-weaboo garbage that makes my own weaboo heart cringe, because the people who play it are surprisingly reasonable. It's like their recognition of how awful it all is keeps them in check and keeps them humble.

So, now, It's GURPS. God, that game is garbage. It's about as fun as a math exam, which admittedly can be fun, but not if you're expected to take that exam for hours on end.
And its players? With some of them trying to pass it off as a "do-everything" system when it's more of a "do-everything-poorly" system? They should take a page out of the Exalted group's book and just keep their head down until someone asks for what system would be great for playing a group of accountants and tax specialists.

>>53601686
>It's about as fun as a math exam

Try Champions next

Shadowrun 5th edition

Could have been so good, but they fucked it up into a barely playable mess.

>>53601052

GURPS.

I can appreciate the design and what people like about it, but the system just bores me to fucking death. The mechanics have no flavour, no texture, they're all bland and flat and dull, and while you can use them to emulate almost anything the sheer lack of anything interesting in the system itself just makes me despise the game at a fundamental level.

>>53601606
That's your reason? Read the comics and see how you feel afterwards.

Savage worlds
Every gimmick possible crammed into a shit system with exploding damage to the point a tard can luck into killing a god.
White knight authors, un-detailed settings, authors that cant be bothered to learn about firearms, tanks, swords, armor, anything in the setting infact.
Boooooooooo

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>>53601606

HOOT HOOT MOTHERFUCKER

>>53601052
Numenera, but even more so, the Cypher system.

The Numenera system could've been great. I wouldn't even have minded the d20 if they'd gotten the numbers right.

It's not even that it's entirely unplayable... in fact, it's just so perfectly mediocre and half-assed that it causes even more problems because shitposters can argue that it's still good, causing our weekly Numenera threads.

Cypher system is just a generic version of the system, which makes it worse because they try and translate it to different genres when it doesn't even handle its own genre that well.

But really, the worst crime it has is being so seemingly good that it gets shitposted every week, and even worse, makes idiots reply to it. Every. Damn. Time.

>>53602400
Its unfortunate you don't like it Wayne. I like making characters and coming up with the gm intrusions, and my players liked them too. Although we only played a mini shot before I had to leave for boot camp, so maybe I don't know. All I know is that I had fun.

>>53602521
That's really my problem with it. It's not that bad, but it's not great, and most of my hate towards it stems from it causing Shit threads.

I really don't like Mutants and Masterminds. People around here seem to tote it as the be all end all of Supers systems. But it is clearly just 3.5 with some extra whistles and shit. I mean, yeah it's better than dnd 3.5, but I guess I think it's overrated more than anything?

Also ADnD, classic, and the endless OSR games. There is very little redeeming about them for me. I kind of get the charm for maybe a one shot or something, but games can do so much more than just running the same type of game you did in the 70s.

As long as I spouting unpopular opinions, I might as well tie the whole noose and say that I hate Elric. The character, the books, the whole setting, and the various rpgs.

>>53602281

I know on a logical level that scale is relative, but I still can't get into that kind of headspace where fighting an owl is an epic encounter even if you happen to be a mouse.

>>53602400
That thing would take a ground up overhaul to do what it should. All those great ideas and the execution is...that. It reads like a great system and then turns into >>53601599 before you know what happened.

>>53601906
Glad I wasn't the only one who had issues with it. GMing it just about gave me a stroke.

>>53602551
I can see that. Being so mediocre that you get mad at the praise for it. I feel that way for DnD.

Anima.

I really dont want to have to fucking bust out the fibonacci sequence and the calculators to play an RPG.

>>53601906

Limits blow my fucking mind. The idea that a mechanic like that could get past a design team is just... Wow.

I get the idea of it. I even understand its role in the system and how it works in practice. But holy fuck, having someone roll amazingly well and then being told 'You can't use that' is the biggest fucking downer mechanic ever, and incorporating it as a core part of the system makes it fucking unavoidable.

Scion. Such an excellent concept, but they tried to force it into the Storyteller System, which isn't meant for throwing around giant clouds of dice. On top of that, they balanced it with all the delicacy of a meat cleaver nosejob, with clear tiers of power between different Pantheons and skill sets.

>>53601906
>>53602648
thirded
took me a dog's age to finish reading the sourcebook, both due to the fact that it's three completely separate systems and the utterly unforgivable editing.

DM it is a goddamn nightmare, I was running for a group of 4 and I can't imagine if you had any more players or street sams, deckers, AND mages. We've moved on to Anarchy and never looked back.

Personally: Fate. It just really isn't to my taste, I can feel my brain just stopping when I try and understand the rules.

I get why people like it though, and I really /want/ to like it. I just fucking don't.

Actual hatred though? Savage Worlds but for different reasons than >>53602265 - it's got shitty quality control, some /great/ gimmicks, some less great gimmicks, but otherwise isn't very portable to other systems and just kinda comes out to be a bit of an overloaded Subway sandwich if anything.

But you know, sometimes an overloaded Subway sandwich is precisely what you want, and the things it does well it does VERY well.

>>53602700
>But holy fuck, having someone roll amazingly well and then being told 'You can't use that' is the biggest fucking downer mechanic ever
That's what Edge is for. You go "holy fuck, look at these exploding dice", and then spend a point of edge to keep them.

It's like your luck stat matters or something.

>Push the Limit: Add your Edge rating to your test, either before or after the roll.
>This use of Edge also allows you to ignore any limit on your test.

>>53602799

But the system actively punishes you for doing that if things aren't serious.

SR is a lethal system, and Edge is a very valuable safety net. Get an amazing roll on something that isn't super important? You have to choose between something interesting and fun and conserving resources that might be necessary for your survival. That's a shitty fucking choice.

>>53602684
What. The anima combat sequence is basically roll dice, compare the margin of difference, add any mods (which are rare) and then * the DR of armor.

I don't know why they made tables for every possible value, since apparently it confuses a lot of people when the equation is easy.

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Storytelling. It's crunch for people who don't like crunch, gamist for people who don't like games, and story-driven for people who can't tell stories. I've played Scion and Vampire, and apart from some halfway decent fluff (cringeworthy nomenclature notwithstanding -- "Childe"? "Sire"? Seriously?) they need a complete overhaul to be decent.

It doesn't help that every person I've encountered who's been a White Wolf fan has been the worst. Every. Single. One. Sexually deviant, emotionally incontinent, obsessed with ritual, and at times mentally deranged.

At first I thought it was just a fluke -- like, yeah, of course a roleplaying game is going to have a fanbase composed mostly of weirdos and outcasts. We're nerds, it comes with the territory. But literally every White Wolf fan I've ever met, without exception, has been someone I could see shooting up an elementary school in Connecticut.

>>53602839

Storyteller is an odd duck of a system. It's full of stuff that claims it's all about the narrative, and yet it's only every recently we've seen even the slightest trace of narrativist design actually involved in the mechanics.

>>53602822
>Regaining Edge

>Good roleplaying.
>Heroic acts of self-sacrifce.
>Achievement of important personal goals.
>Enduring a critical glitch without using a Close Call (you get a point of Edge back to balance the scales a bit; this should be used judiciously, though, so as not to always let the players off the hook when they roll a critical glitch).
>Succeeding in an important objective.
>Being particularly brave or smart.
>Pushing the storyline forward.
>Having the right skills in the right place at the right time.
>Impressing the group with humor or drama.

And the all important;

>Your character gets one point of Edge back after a fulflling meal and a good night’s sleep (at least eight hours)

If you're not using at least 1 Edge per day you get a good night's sleep, then you're wasting it.

>>53601052
WoD
it always ends with a literal trainwreck in the thundra and everyone wanking over their 1920's mafia movie expys

>>53601052
Fate. Tried it with multiple groups as both player and GM and its lack of consistent stats just starts to feel like a really inconsistent game of Mage: the Awakening, except the power is now trying to pass off a Humphrey Bogart stare as a convincing gimmick for the scene instead of arguing if your character has enough power to instantly heal some schmuck's body back to slightly bruised after being shot down a 40 story building.

Conceptually, the game makes sense, and there's deep truth that its mechanically more complex than it seems. Fate sits in some weird uncanny valley of open ended play - there's other games that do the whole 'make up your own stats' rules so much more elegantly without core rule books that are over 500 goddamn pages (Risus), mechanically encourages a lot more crazy shit with its open ended focus (Wushu), or goes into a deeper opposite end of crunch (Fiasco)

Any PbtA game. They read like such pretentious bullshit that I can't even get through reading one to see if it's any good.

Same with Luke Crane's shit.

Anything by Palladium cuz Uncle Kevs a crook.

>>53602620
Does it help to shift the scale up? Assume human-sized mice battling an owl dragon.

Alternatively, channel that into playing powerful but cowardly characters.

"HOLY SHIT GUYS IT'S A DRAGON RUNRUNRUN-"
"Aren't YOU a dragon?"
"Well... uh... it just feels weird thinking he's not that dangerous, alright?"

>>53603022
Fuck off, buddy. This isn't a "defend your favorite system" thread.

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>>53601606
mmmBITCH!!!!

DnD sucks ass, but to qualify, i must say Unknown Armies.
love the fuck outta the setting
but
THAT SYSTEM IS AAAAASSSSSSSSSS!!!!!

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>>53601052
FATE.
Dungeon World.
GURPS.

>>53603881

Have you looked at 3e?

>>53603022
>>53602822
>>53602799

But if you'll always have Edge to burn to ignore limits when you get a great roll, what's the fucking point of Limits?

Either they're a waste of space and an arbitrary tax on player resources, or they're pure anti-fun bullshit. Neither shows the system in a particularly favourable light.

>>53601052
Any system that focuses on having large dice pools. Storyteller system, Shadowrun, whatever. The settings are all well and good but rolling 20 - 30 dice every time you do something is tedious as shit and bogs down game play.

>>53602612
Maybe take a look at the one roll engine
/ wild talents if you still want to take a look at the whole supers tabletop thing.

Not gonna lie, it has issues, but I like it

>>53601052
Legends of the Wulin.

I like quite a lot the ideas in there, I really do. But... at the same time, why the FUCK does it need new words for so many of its concepts, why the FUCK are secret arts still nearly incomprehensible. (though admittedly less so than Weapons of the Gods)
Combat can be quite cinematic... if you're able to deal with all the bookkeeping and crunch.

Add to that the publishing failure that makes me wonder if physical books actually exist, and it is unlikely I'll ever be able to play.

Exalted. Vampire.

>>53604127

As someone who adores LotW, I can't fault a single thing you said. Honestly, LotW might count as my favourite and most hated system simultaneously, because so many of those great ideas are badly executed, pointlessly obfuscated or simply absent, forcing you to figure out how the gaps are meant to be filled. It is a glorious clusterfuck of a system that could have used a lot more editing, and at this point I'm just hoping someone does a cleaned up, slimmed down rewrite at some point in the future.

Seriously. All the problems LotW has, the more you play it the more you find. It's so goddamn frustrating.

>>53604023
This almost never comes up in actual gameplay because being good enough to get a large number of successes requires having a good stat, and stats determine the limit. The only exceptions are Sneaking and Gymnastics because AGI isn't part of the physical limit calculation.

>>53604023
>Either they're a waste of space and an arbitrary tax on player resources
bingo, they're an arbitrary waste of player resources because players have an arbitrary generation of resources.

>>53604113
Perfect fucking timing

I fucking hate the inbred calvalcade of fucking garbage systems that followed godlike.

im not even gonna touch the lore, but the system is the most unbalanced, clunky, and just unintuitive mess I've ever seen.

And I didn't even care until I started seeing it mentioned in every fifth fucking thread.

Like seriously anytime anyone asks for a system you retards chime in. You're just shittier gurps, at least it cares about crunch ( even if it's just as fucking clunky).

Seriously, how the fuck this mistake of a system has people who can unironically enjoy it baffles me

Fuck off

>>53604168
I believe the makers of it were working on a more streamlined system.

But yeah, I have that same love/hate thing with it.

>>53604261
>I fucking hate the inbred calvalcade of fucking garbage systems that followed godlike.
Champions and Aberrant would like to say go fuck yourself.

>>53603884
>>53603600
>>53602780
I was going to use FATE for the next game I ran because my player really likes it and really didn't like Mutants and masterminds 3e...but I keep hearing shit about it. I just cannot have a game or even a social hobby that I'm genuinely happy with, can I?

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>>53601052
GURPS

>>53604455

FATE is good at what it does and some groups love it, but it has its weaknesses.

I appreciate the design, but the lack of mechanical stuff to get my teeth into and the generally crappy combat just annoys me.

If you're not super attached to getting to play with mechanics and don't need deep combat, it works fine, and the narrative mechanics with aspects and the fate point economy really are superb.

>>53604481
Honestly if that's the case then I might actually like it, I'm so sick and tired of having to juggle mechanics for fighting, and would rather just keep it as brief as possible for the campaign sequel I'm planning for my solo player.

Would rather just freeform roleplay in this case, but eh if it's what she wants...

>>53604359
>>53604168
Ah right, here was that newer system they were working on.
(still not that much info I could easily find tho)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrr6nXG54O4

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>>53602265
>a tard can luck into killing a god

Or combat can go on for hours if the GM miscalculates Toughness.

Or you can be shot point blank in the face with a shotgun and take zero damage.

Or be stabbed with a nail file and die of a heart attack.

Or take seven times more damage than is needed to kill you, then survive with no injuries.

Or get punched once and take an injury so severe that you can't roll a success for the rest of the game and end up getting killed by some yahoo cannon fodder.

That game has some of the stupidest math I've ever seen.

>>53601052
2d20
I think Modiphius' design process went like "Ok, we have no idea what we're doing. Let's hire the fucker who killed off Warhammer."

>>53604685

I've played a little of the Infinity RPG and it's seemed okay so far, although problems can take a while to emerge.

What were your issues with it?

>>53601052
5E for D&D, Exalted for non-D&D.

>>53604481
FATE is a game made by GMs for GMs. If anyone in your game is not a story teller, it will not work for them.

>>53604723

This is very true. FATE is built on the notion of shared narrative agency rather than it being concentrated on the GM, so if any players are uncomfortable or unfamiliar with that they might have a bad time.

>>53603630
Hahahaha kevins a a crook hehehe.
Wwoooooooo one bad kick starter and hes a gaming felon hahahaha

>>53604709
Apart from the clunkyness, the exception-based
design, the unintuitive and repetitive dicerolling, the beancounting the various fate and momentum pools, and the forced halfass.., sorry; superfun and cinematic narrativism, it is almost usable.

>>53604928

The Infinity version only has 2 different metacurrency pools, so that's an improvement? But could you expand on stuff? I am really curious, and it's always good to know faults and weaknesses of systems so you can compensate for them ahead of time.

>>53604582
As one of the Fate-haters quoted, honestly, try the system because my wants and playstyle =! everyone else's. Fate keeps everything to a small dice pool with lower numbers - if the desire is for quick and easily readable rolls so the game doesn't get bogged down by reading dice, Fate excels at that. Its resolution mechanics aren't my personal cup of tea, but this thread is all about what we as individuals aren't feeling good about

>Solo player
>if it's what she wants...
Seriously dude, nothing an anonymous internet forum can say should keep you from testing what both you guys might appreciate

Continuum. Sweet mother of Schrodinger, CONTINUUM. The rules are so god-damned complicated you'd need a degree in quantum physics just to play it.

>>53605011

I appreciate Continuum as a thing that exists, even if I'd never want to play it.

>>53605011
I would love to play continuum based on descriptions of the system but have never found any discussion of it on /tg/ (partly because "Continuum" is an actual word and makes it a bit difficult to search in the archives) nor a pdf of the actual rules. I'm probably going to hit up the pdf share thread, actually

>>53601052
ORE, it just rubs me the wrong way for a dozen reasons throughout the system.

A close second is Tenra Bansho Zero for the weird "social class determines what gear you can/will use, ever". As in, a brigand will throw away a noble's sword because it's too classy for him, even if he normally uses the same but cheaper style of weapon. And you need to be a noble to use giant clubs. An uncouth and savage mountain oni with zero social standing not only lacks the use of their iconic weapon, but the very concepts of clothes, tools or weapons at all.

>>53604988
From what I've gleaned from the Infinity quickstart, they do seem to have streamlined it somewhat there. My main grief comes from Mutant Chronicles which is just a clusterfuck of astronomical proportions every which way (and I say that as someone who has actually played it - for a short time before it went into the bin). Their Conan doesn't fill me with happy thoughts either.

D&D: 3.5 as it is. Too bloated, too unwieldy.

Non-D&D: Eclipse Phase. The setting is AMAZING and I want to play it but goodness gracious why do the ruleset and character creation have to be so iterative and self-referential?
Here's hoping EP2e addresses at least some of my complaints.

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>>53601052
Vampire: The Masquerade
Because everyone I ever met who plays this is not just a weirdo but a huge douche.

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Pathfinder, undoubtedly Pathfinder. It encourages such awful habits and we're going to have to put up with it being a major player in the industry for, what, another 10 years? We're going to see neckbeards screaming at each other about attacks of opportunity over their retirement home porridge. This is a nigh-on 20 year-old game and that wouldn't be a problem if it were GOOD, but it's not, it's BAD and it has way too much influence. It's the microwave of RPGs: if you stare into it too much you'll turn retarded. All the proof you need is at your FLGS every weekend for PFS.

>>53606116
wow, this is hitting such a nerve that your vitriol is spilling into other threads! maybe it's time to step away from the computer and take a long, calming walk.

>>53606116
>another 10 years?

Try another twenty, at the very least, of you continuing to impotently rage at a game that's better than you'll allow yourself to admit it is.

Fuck, it must suck to be you.

>>53601052
D&Dfinder
Hardmode: Anything PBtA

I hate Pathfinder, but not for any particular reason the game is decent. However, there is one aspect of the game that I feel makes it fundamentally flawed. More so the organizational play. The Pathfinder Society.

I have had many dealings with them in my area, both professionally and also as a player. Either they select the most insane OCD people to host games in their name or they honestly have no fucking clue how to make games fun and less robotic.

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>>53606116
>being this mad
>not even listing any of the problems that make you so mad other than IT'S A BAD GAME

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>>53606151
>>53606156
>better than you'll allow yourself to admit it is
I played that shit nonstop for years because it's all I could find in my area and no sir, I do not like it.

I do not like its reliance on arcane rules to govern everything. Things like attacks of opportunity, CMB/CMD, action economy, Vancian casting, bonus discretion, etc are so overwrought for no reason, and these are core fuctions of the game. All it does is create autistic arguments about 500 pages on how to play make believe.

I do not like its reliance on tons of stupid trap options scattered across what must now be at least one hundred books. Most of these options are pointless, and only serve to encourage dumb charop. It's just fellating stupid fags who netdeck in RPGs, wanking in the face of those who either A) can't be bothered or B) would rather make a character as opposed to a statblock - something I personally feel mechanically-focused options are anathema too (or at least I've never seen it pulled off).

I do not like its grid-reliant, slogging combat. The less said about that the better, but suffice to say I don't like passing my free time by spending hours listening to a couple retards whine about whether this bonus or that feat or this item interact in some specific way every turn for literal, actual hours. Imagine all the things you could do in that time that are actually fun.

I do not like its dumb kitchen sink setting that lazily lets you do anything you want in the hopes you'll drag out your PF campaign for years and buy years' worth of splatbooks. I would rather play smaller, more focused campaigns in smaller, more focused settings. I also don't like the obsession with mechanically optimized, superficially youneek one-dimensional characters - I will rip off your head and shit down your throat if you bring a quarter-goblin/half-kitsune/quarter-tiefling necro-alchemist (3) (dracomancer archetype) /gunmemer (cumdumpster archetype) (2) to my table.

>>53606338
That.. pretty well sums up Pathfinder, and 3.pf in general really. While I played 3e and 3.5 for a while when those were new, they were FAR worse than the old AD&D game that I used to play in as far as taking a millenia to actually make a SINGLE ROUND of combat actually pass, due to quintillions of rules that apply to any given scenario, from feats to magic items to spells to class features.. simply unplayable. The 'statblock' thing isn't unique to 3.pf, but it absolutely dwells at the very heart of all that 3.pf stands for.

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>>53606338
And lest we forget the fucking obnoxious community surrounding a fucking obnoxious company. I haven't seen such willing shiteaters anywhere else in tabletop gaming. Most communities can usually admit, "Yeah, it's not great but I still enjoy it." And that's fine. But pathfags? The merest insinuation that 3.PF isn't the apex of tabletop gaming has them in cold sweats: "W-what do you mean Pathfinder isn't perfect? I didn't spend hundreds of dollars and dozens of hours on these books for nothing! It's perfect and I made the best decision because I'm smart! It was a good investment because I can play Pathfinder forever!"

And Paizo itself, how scummy do you have to be to pump out these shitty little books once a month MINIMUM? Not to mention all the shit like blind boxes of shitty plastic miniatures or having TWO cuckscammers for your fucking quixotic MMO that crashed and burned before it even launched (but not before you took over a million dollars). Speaking of PFO, imagine being such a fucking retard that you look at Ryan Dancey's moderation policy (in a nut shell: "We won't tell you what the rules are and while we will not enforce them consistently, the punishments we do mete out will be very severe in the hopes that this will cultivate an atmosphere of constant suspicion and people will be too scared to put a toe out of line.") and immediately derail the thread by calling anyone disagreeing with him an out-and-out pedophile. Imagine being that fucking dumb; that is what it's like to be a pathfag.

Now there's an entire generation of gamers indoctrinated into thinking this is the norm, this is what RPGs are: insane competitions to see who can bend the 500+ pages of rules in the most laborious way possible without breaking themselves. This idea that RPGs are about spending hours arguing over dumb bullshit for no other reason than to tally up imaginary loot from imaginary monsters with more detail put into their combat "tactics" than anything else. Fuck!

Exalted

Oh I used to love that damn game, the world setting, the mechanics, till one particular GM ran it, and just fucking killed the game for me.

>Playing infernal
>Gm plays them straight
>Sidereal bullshit constantly
>Half castes and fucking Dragon Kings wreaking our shit because he wanks them
>Everything including canon fodder DB's have a 20 defense value.

It's like, Why did I even try to enjoy the game at this point.

>>53602780
>>53604455
The deal with Fate is that it requires a completely different approach than other RPGs. Instead of just playing "your character" or whatever, Fate relies on everyone telling the story and working together to get a compelling story, rather than each player just reacting to whatever the GM throws. Think of it like a movie, where everyone are directors and screenwriters as well as actors.

It's okay to not like it, precisely because it requires a different approach.

>>53603600
Fate should be seen as excelling in either of these; it should be seen as excelling as a toolkit for making narrative based games, something neither Risus, Wushu, or Fiasco can do as well because it provides mechanics for narrative (Aspects).

Shadowrun, in general, though I've only looked at 4th and 5th edition. I like the lore a lot, but the system is a clunky, unplayable mess.

It's bad to the point where I'm going to eventually use GURPS (which is nowhere as slow or hard as people say it is, and I've only recently started playing it) to run Shadowrun.

Also: Eclipse Phase. For the same reasons, kind of. The whole thing of being able to switch bodies whenever you want, getting killed is okay (but you gotta retrieve the cortical stack or you'll lose your memories), all that transhumanism is super cool. The system is absolute ass, though.

>>53602612
Come on, OSR games are fun for a while. They're a different style of game, though, more like a board game than a true roleplaying game. Fun for a few short adventures where PCs die fairly often, keeping danger high.

Vampire The Masquerade
It's just humans with some superpowers who can't do shit because of some stupid rule. What's the point of being a vampire then?

>>53607092
>But pathfags? The merest insinuation that 3.PF isn't the apex of tabletop gaming has them in cold sweats: "W-what do you mean Pathfinder isn't perfect? I didn't spend hundreds of dollars and dozens of hours on these books for nothing! It's perfect and I made the best decision because I'm smart! It was a good investment because I can play Pathfinder forever!"

Have you tried looking at /pfg/?

>>53607978
The difference is that /pfg/ is not retarded. Most of them have either played the game and ran into issues with 3.0/3.5/PF and have zero reason to suck PF's cock blindly... or they know people who have, sometimes both, like me.

This fucker over here >>53592109 is a whole
'nother story though and it's become impossible to have a 3.5 thread without him shitting it up, especially if it's discussing its flaws.

>>53607092
>Now there's an entire generation of gamers indoctrinated into thinking this is the norm, this is what RPGs are: insane competitions to see who can bend the 500+ pages of rules in the most laborious way possible without breaking themselves. This idea that RPGs are about spending hours arguing over dumb bullshit for no other reason than to tally up imaginary loot from imaginary monsters with more detail put into their combat "tactics" than anything else.

This is literally the worst part of PF. I don't care what others do with their time and money, but a sizable amount of people will be introduced to RPGs through PF/DnD.

RPGs are already a niche hobby, and they're butchering the population further.

>>53606688
>a millenia
Millenium

I can't really choose one out of the unholy trifecta of VtM, MAGUS and 3rd.

Even some 20 years after release, they keep dominating the local scene because of popularity and availability, despite being fucking terrible games.

>>53604796
Well NMI, just like sucking a single cock makes you a cocksucker, all it takes is committing a single felony to become a felon. So Kevvy stealing his 1.4 million certainly makes him a bit felonious. It is a shame that Rogue an Heroes' gRifts Boardgame got shut down by the trolling.

>>53601767
We don't talk about Champions, man...

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>>53605696
>Vampire: The Masquerade
>everyone I ever met who plays this is not just a weirdo but a huge douche

It's probably my favorite setting, but sadly, you are like 100% right.

>>53601052
Demon: The Descent. I hate many, many things about CofD (including most of its gamelines) but the God Machine takes the cake and Demon is intrinsically tied to it. It's just so poorly defined and barely explained for "muh mystery" that it's practically impossible to fit into a story; the whole thing just reeks of being a contrived excuse for crossover games and justification to make another game for the setting.

>>53601052
I wouldn't say "hate", but I really don't get the love for anything "Powered by the Apocalypse".
"Moves" seem like a useful tool for newbies who've never played a real RPG before, and maybe for that nervous guy whose brain freezes over when it's time to decide what his character should do , but otherwise I feel that they're just a crutch for unimaginative players.

>>53601052
Anything "diceless", especially those systems that use PLAYING CARDS for Chris' sake. Yeesh.

>>53601052
I never could stand the old system for TORG by West End Games.

>>53601529
1E or 2E (Unisystem)?

>>53608172
You, got that kinda backwards.

Moves aren't done intentionally. Moves are triggered by what the character does. So they can't really work as a "crutch". You can't really say "I'll use my hack and slash!"; that's not how the game works.

>>53608172
but that's wrong. i must state in advance that i never played pbta, don't like pbta, and only know the few rules it has rudimentarily.

THAT SAID, i finally understood moves. in a normal RPG, you say as a player what your character wants to do. as such they are about character actions and quite simulationist. in pbta, you declare where you want your character to take the story. that's waaaaaaaaaay different. yes, they are a limiting crutch but they are a helpful tool to prevent gamers from declaring only actions aka simulationist mode. moves are basically the building blocks of story.

>>53608224
com'on, dude. you describe your actions with your moves at the back of your mind. the description of actions are window dressing. what you are REALLY deciding on is the direction of story.

serious question, why is dnd considered a bad system? Seems fine to me

>>53608272
Because most people go D&D=3.X, and 3.X is a giant garbage fire.

>>53608272
3rd edition and its offshoot dominated the scene thanks to OGL and brand popularity for a decade or so, despite having some pretty bad design flaws (which, because of how widespread the game is, had been analysed to death).

The rest of the editions are generally okay, aside from some edition war bullshit and being a bit too complicated for the role of "beginner RPG" that D&D fills.

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>>53608272
depends on who you ask. some gamists will decry the lack of balance. simulationists will be turned off by the mechanics (high level characters easily survive multiple hits with swords, for example). narrativists don't find much to think their teeth into, especially since they have so much rules to wade through for little narrative gain.

>>53608272

Fifth edition is rivened with stupid fucking rules and internal inconsistency and looks like it wasn't playtested at all and thanks to the language there's very little room for interpretation of rules that are garbage.

There aren't really any games I feel that way about, but I hate the fact that the only viable cyberpunk RPG choices are a science-fantasy system and GURPS.

>>53608375
There's Cyberpunk 2020. It's kinda thrash.

There's also Interface Zero which had been ported to like 3 different systems, including Savage Worlds.

There's also The Sprawl. I like it, but it's PbtA.

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This one

>>53605245
That sounds really dumb.

>>53602839

>"Sire"

Fuck is wrong with 'sire'? They're traditionalist immortals, it makes sense that their linguistic drift would be glacial.

Childe/Childer is kinda goofy, though, even if it is the same thing.

>>53608221
1E

>>53607523
Fate does require a different mindset concerning how to play the game, and narrative control via aspects does gamify a lot of situations that are completely ignored by other systems. Personally, it still annoys the hell out of me because of how loose it still is - character aspects and how readily they may be invoked is dependent on whether the player made a decent choice in word selection of their character description. Fate does streamline setting a lot better than other systems with situational aspects, I just hate that its also the same way characters are built and if I wanted to play a game that takes situational aspects into account but at least have the players be on the same page concerning what the hell their characters are actually able to do, I'd rather play a PbtA game. They may not stick labels on things like 'man is on fire' or ' wet floor,' but PbtA games don't need to stick labels, the GM is always presenting the situation and asking the player to give a narrative reaction in context to whatever's in front of their face.

I really just don't like how Fate is at a character level and players ability to interact in the game world through their characters, but as said earlier, its just that it rubs me personally the wrong way. I personally like PbtA games, even DW, but I understand that a lot of people here hate it for justifiable reasons and the 16 hp dragon is legit bullshit.

>>53608272
Far too many sacred cows. For example shit like Alignment worked in Gygax's time when everyone playing had read Elric and got what Law/Chaos meant, but not now where literally everone has a slightly different interpretation.

All this isnt helped by trying to present it as a Tolkienesque world saving adventure when the rules have always been geared for playing like mercenaries because, going back to Gygax's players, more morally ambiguous money driven characters were popular.

>>53608301

This, essentially.

The internet is such a frustrating place. Broad, open discourse is the rule, with people rambling through diverse discussions on numerous subjects, but they always try to forcibly shove everything into solid, quantifiable wholes, like all subjects can be boiled down to wrench size: sure, there's a strong variance, sure, they might be imperial or metric, sure, you can strip the bolt, but fundamentally, there's this mentality that every single thing can be described as being hexagonal bolts with specific measurements, and that any discussion of the vagaries and complexity of personal interaction is disingenuous at best.

GNS isn't some kind of exact measuring tool, and it also does not describe systems. That people fail to understand the difference between a gamist system and a system a gamist would prefer is exactly the kind of shit I'm talking about.

>>53601052
nWoD "2e" aka The Giant Toaster Chronicle
The way the experience works in this game and the social "doors" mechanic introduced really rubbed me the wrong way. When I compare it to the standard nWoD edition, my personal opinion is that it took a step forward and three steps backwards.

>>53601052
FFG's Star Wars: Edge of the Empire, Age of Rebellion, Force and Destiny.
I hate the shitty class system, the copypasted core books, the specialized dice, the blatant gear and talent inbalance, the uselessness of specialization, the space combat rules, the constant handwaving and vague approximations.

On the other hand, it's a simple system that covers most of the setting and does force-sensitve decently.

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>>53601052

2d20 Conan. Just fucking garbage.

>>53608942
Forge wankfuckery

>>53601052
>Hard mode: no edition of D&D.
Pathfinder

>>53604796
Hi NMI! Uncle Kev has a 3D render of his cock for you. He just has to wait for Chinese New Year to get a quote....

And this is where PbtA games are pretentious piles of shit. "You're not doing what anybody has done in every RPG ever, no man, you're moving the fiction. It's all about the fiction."

Fuck off.

>>53601052
Mage the Ascension.

>>53610274
That is D&D.

Any system that has health levels instead of hitpoints

Wod has these stupid ass soak rules where no vampire gets hurt unless they get hit by a shotgun or some shit and i hate them

>>53606338
You seem to have a very skewed and unbalanced view of the game. Most of it is just you complaining about it being a large system, and that there are options and information you don't care about.

That's largely just you being so self-centered that you can't imagine another group caring about the things you don't care about, or another group, or another.

Your main issue is that you don't appreciate that it's a game designed to be useful to a wide variety of people, which is one of the main reasons it managed to achieve such widespread popularity. And no, don't continue to argue, because as much as it pains you to hear this truth, yes, it did and continues to appeal to a wide variety of people.

>>53610539
Also fuck Systems with high damage block values where just NOTHIGN happens every turn of combat

>playing savage worlds
>one guy has 8 toughness
>blocks every possible enemy attack in that setting
>literally unkillable
>have to restrict the rules because blocking is so flawed

>>53610577

Fucking Pathfags

>>53610600
https://www.peginc.com/freebies/SWcore/Combat%20Survival%20Guide.pdf

>>53606338
PF has issues, sure, but the things you're listing about combat taking forever and fags whining, sounds to me you found really shitty groups.

>>53610739
i've read this

gmd it several times. in one setting there was stuff with zombies and they literally couln't hurt that one pc

>>53610811
if nothing else, exploding dice means they are always a threat because you can't know when they go nuclear.

>>53610577
Nigga you may literally be autistic.

>>53602612
Elric is way too edgy and Moorcock was a shit writer. I agree.

>>53610863
I agree with the first half, but Corum's pretty good.

>>53610842
I mean sure. If they explode they're a threat. But my players are at no threat unless the dice explode.

And this was supposed to be a setting with zombie hordes which were supposed to be dangerous and somewhat scary

Now what would you say as a gamemaster if your players station a character infront of a character to block an entryway for a horde because that guy can tank everything and if the dice explodes once theres still minimal risk towards that character

Rolemaster. Sure, it technically works.

But fuck having to reference more than a single chart for every attack.

>>53610876
>a character infront of a character
am i retarded?

>>53610876
Zombies should be ganging up. They are probably not intelligent enough for called shots I guess. They should try to be pushing through anyway (I don't recall what a shove action is in SW, but I'm pretty sure it ignores toughness).

That said, I think a guy in heavy armor being immune to zombies (since they are too dumb) is totally reasonable.

>>53610811
Yeah, a lot of those tactics go out the window if you're running unintelligent opponents. Still, zombie hordes should be threatening due to the gang-up bonus, and they should probably also be able to wild attack. Being surrounded by a wild-attacking zombie horde means they're going to Ace all their attacks, which means if they were rolling 1d6 now they're rolling 2d6+2, which will beat that 8 toughness very quickly.

Zombies aren't threats individually, it's the horde itself that's the threat.

>>53610872
I'll check it out. Moorcock himself did admit to being a bad writer with good ideas, though.

>>53611009
Thats something i should have considered

Anyways. I've learned two things from that adventure. Avoid systems with damage block and avoid large scale engagements. They're a pain in the ass to manage

>>53610995
8 Toughness doesn't mean heavy armor. Within SW logic it means either very thick skin or real fat characters.

Now imagine a guy getting attacked by zombies and they dont deal damage cuz hes too fat to bite

How does that make sense you guys

>>53611078
...No, no armor definitely adds to toughness. Are you an idiot, or did you just never read the rules of the game you're criticizing?

>>53611061
Large scale engagements are okay if the system has rules for swarms and minions possibly.

>>53611078
You need to have d12 vigor for that to happen without armor. That's not simply fat, that's "has a hide as thick as an elephant".

>>53611106
>>53611126
On my character sheets it says toughness = 2+ Constitution/2

The way i've explained it is he was fat because no human could ever have skin thick enough to block bullets and such

>>53611184
I always view it as cinematic toughness. As in, bullets aren't bouncing off of his skin, they're just grazing him and leaving manly scars.

>>53611184
Toughness isn't just being unaffected by stuff, it's also powering through pain and injuries.

You could have a leper with huge Vigor, cause he just doesn't feel pain (probably better represented by an advantage but w/e).

Fat also doesn't stop bullets, btw. You can't be fat enough to be immune to bullet.

>>53611184
It's 2+VIG/2+Location Armour.

>>53602749
So Anarchy is worth looking into? I must admit, a rules-lite version of Shadowrun sounds pretty neat.

>>53611238
>>53611246
>>53611255
Bottom line I really didn't like how damage blocking worked in that system

>>53610577
this thread was specifically made to talk about systems you hate with a passion and look at you, making a tool out of yourself.

>>53611293
The Sprawl and Sixth World do it better, if you don't mind PbtA.

Anarchy is not light enough to be called rules light imo, although it does streamline a bunch of shit.

>>53611308
Fair enuff, I just thought you may have condemned it without understanding it entirely.

>>53601052
GURPS. Too crunchy, trying to model too many things. Character customization is absolutely boring, advantages and disadvantages aren't exciting. You don't get cool shit for advancing. The 3d6 system is nice for bell curve distribution of rolls though.

Obviously I'm going to say Pathfinder just because of the sheer amount of effort I have to put into it as a DM to maintain balance across power gapped parties and that I'm required to have an internet connection to play it so I can access d20pfsrd because there are more supplements than stars in the universe. But that's easy mode.

From a conceptual standpoint, I abhor PbtA and everything that spawned as a result from it especially Dungeon World. Koebel is a tumor. It's the least innovative pretentious piece of horse shit I have ever touched. It's the "indie retro platformer DEEP story driven kickstarted early access video game" of tabletop gaming.

As for mechanics I have to go with Phoenix Command. Which is a shame because I love what the system intended to do and I have a soft spot for extreme simulationism but this was too much. The mechanics were sound, if you had the patience to actually run a combat. But boy oh boy did it bog down fast. We ended up shelving it about 45 minutes in and only managing to execute 2 turns of a pistol fight.

>>53604455
You have to accept that some people won't like the thing that you like and that should not diminish how much you like the thing. Play FATE. Be happy about the thing.

>>53611365
>You don't get cool shit for advancing.
How do you mean? Does spending gained character points on new advantages or whatever not count?

>>53611409

But none of them are interesting. They're all very flat and mechanical and dull. Representation without any flavour or depth.

>>53601052
Symbaroum taught me that systems can be awful despite the nice art
The setting is bland, the rules are all over the place, im pretty sure there are more exceptions than rules, the core races are the worst attempt at spinning generic fantasy races around... i was excited because the art is really good, but reading through it made me want to kill myself

http://www.heavens-feel.com/fate_nasuverse_rpg.html

>Tfw first time doing anything /tg/ and get shoehorned into running a Grail War with this trainwreck
At no time should you have to divide by 5.3 to determine a stat

>>53601052
Apocalypse World. A lot of my friends like it, and I acknowledge that it seems to be a fun game to play if you're sick of overcomplicated stuff, but I just can't... Get it. I just don't like ANYTHING about it.

>>53611424
What's an example of an advancement that's interesting?

>>53611438
>divide by 5.3
For what fucking purpose

>>53601906
I actually sorta like 5e after removing limits, but it's just not as good as anything before it. Even if the organization in the core book is way better than previous editions

>>53611540

Honestly? D&D. For all its bullshit, it also has a lot of really weird, interesting options that really add to the flavour of your character and work in unique and unusual ways, often accompanied by pretty good fluff. This isn't to say that D&D is a good system, and some classes get fucking screwed compared to others, but the progression side of the system is pretty damn fun overall.

>>53611575
... Were you using limitations/enhancements to add flavor to the advantages and disadvantages? I can't see the difference here, besides D&D being pre-made.

>>53611569
>Even if the organization in the core book is way better than previous editions
>the standard meme is that Catalyst couldn't organise a book to save their lives
Hmm.

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>>53611557
The entire book is a fucking mess believe me. It's an amalgamation of 6+ other systems that got painted over to look like Nasuverse. Not only was it a complete travesty trying to understand everything considering some of us had never touched a d20 in our lives but it's not fit for PvP content (Since the only time anyone would ever run a Nasuverse game would be for Grail Wars.) Being a 1st time DM for 14 people was a nightmare but I'd do it again in a heartbeat for all the cool shit that happened.

>>53611608
GURPS improvements are incremental. D&D improvements are often huge boosts.

>>53604455
HEre's the thing about Fate, and I promise I'm not shitposting here. If you like freeform RP, you'll probably like Fate.

No, really! I'm serious here. as >>53607523 says, the system is designed around everyone, not just the GM, working to make the story. You can spend Fate points to make up locations (There's no towns we can resupply at? But I remember there being a settlement here. Even if it's abandoned we could still scavenge what's left), to interject things into a scene (There's a chandelier in this room I can try to bring down on the villain's head!), and to open up weaknesses (My opponent in the next boxing match has a kidney problem he's trying to hide, and can barely take bodyshots because of it).

It's a game where everyone contributes, and I think that's a good thing. The game has a lot of flaws, but it succeeds in being fun as long as you come in with the right mindset. The real issue with Fate is that you NEED imaginative players to have a good game, dungeon crawlers and murderhobos will never be able to play Fate and have fun with it. Well, that's not true, I've had a bonafide murderhobo actually start making interesting characters because they played Fate.

The game is not for everyone, and I know some good roleplayers who can't stand Fate, but give it a chance. If you don't like it, you can always just tell your player and use another system.

>>53611697
That depends entirely on the GM's point drip. If they hand out twenty-five points at the end of an adventure, that's certainly enough to match D&D's huge boosts.

>>53611608

It's kind of an implicit flaw of pointbuy systems, you can't afford to have as interesting mechanics for fear of the potential interactions.

Then again, GURPS progression is still dull compared to other pointbuys.

>>53611728
>It's kind of an implicit flaw of pointbuy systems, you can't afford to have as interesting mechanics for fear of the potential interactions.
What? GURPS is built for modifying advantages to suit your needs. There's hundreds of modifiers available. There's no fear of potential interactions here. It embraces them.

>>53611630
And it's STILL better than 3e Shadowrun's organization. That says something.

>>53611293
pretty much this >>53611322 if you want Shadowrun with playable crunch go for Anarchy, it's the same base system ground down to something manageable. If you want rules lite The Sprawl is far better suited for it.

>>53611293
I'd like to add to what >>53612447 wrote: The Sprawl is ShadowRUN, it is JUST the jobs; you do a run every session and there is little to no connective tissue between them. If you want something more contiguous, I've heard The Veil is pretty good but I haven't tried it myself.

Literally any system that 2hu plays.

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>>53611708
>the right mindset

Fate is good in that it's simple, but not easy. It's actually a bit of a challenge to get into the "For the Group" mentality, to sufficiently distance yourself from your character, and to cooperate on the meta level.

It's good for developing that mindset.

>>53612589
>It's actually a bit of a challenge to get into the "For the Group" mentality, to sufficiently distance yourself from your character, and to cooperate on the meta level.
As someone who started this way RPG systems like D&D are weird as fuck.

Star Wars FFG. Equipment is wonky and the dice are nonfuctional, bogging shit down with advantage/disadvantage bookkeeping and the insanity of triumph/despair.

Exalted is pure masturbation.

Anima was the worst shit I ever played. The fucking table spam killed it for me.

>>53612625
Even people who understand it's a group activity have difficulty taking it to the level that Fate demands. Fate is a bit of an extreme, because it often requires you to think against your character, which creates a degree of detachment many people find immersion breaking.

>>53612946

I've never really considered it 'against' my character. I'm still immersed in them if I think about ways their story could turn bad, because all of those concepts and possibilities are still firmly rooted in who they are and their place in the story. But I know peoples perspective relative to their character varies a lot.

>>53605696
>ST vampire the masquerade
>Am a huge douche and a weirdo
Chances are if you like the setting your just a weirdo douche who hasn't bloomed yet.

Or gay. You could also just be gay in the non-pejorative way.

>>53608835
>players ability to interact in the game world through their characters
See, this is the wrong part. In Fate, players don't interact in the game world through their characters - they directly interact in the game world, detached from their characters.

The part Fate gamifies is the whole story building thing. Fate is a mix between a RPG and a storytelling game. Everyone gets to tell a story, everyone gets to shape the world, and everyone is supposed to tell a compelling story, even if their characters are at a disadvantage and only because it's cool. For example in no other game one would dare to get their character straight into a complication, but Fate encourages it and even tells you to make it so that your character grows from such situations.

Also, this >>53611708 - it's okay to not like it because it differs so much from other RPGs.

5th Editi-
>No edition of D&D
Oh drat. I guess that I would have to say Dungeon World. That thing barely counts as a game.

>>53613056
>>53612589
In the spirit of the thread, though, there's three big things I don't like about Fate that >>53604455 might find to be a dealbreaker, in order of problem causing:

1. The game requires a lot of homebrew for certain characters. Magic in particular suffers from this: Sure, using Lore for spells is neat and all, but what if your character isn't a wizard? What if they cast spells via another skill? This is very easy to imbalance as you could have a magical knight who both attacks and casts spells by Fight, and thus having Fight starting at Great can be a severe imbalance. Of course, this is only really an issue if you want everything to make sense in context, which isn't totally necessary.

2. What makes good Aspects is very subjective. The very idea behind them makes it hard for new players or unimaginative players to nail down what really makes an Aspect a usable one. Munchkins are generally not welcome at any table, but they will find Fate entirely unpalatable mostly because you NEED to have exploitable flaws (as opposed to flaws that hardly matter) in order to participate in the Fate Point economy, which in this game is nigh on everything.

cont.

>>53613405

3. I fucking hate the Skill Pyramid. Do you like characters growing stronger, crunchwise? Too bad. It takes a long time to build skills, so much so that I don't even think Shadowrun's karma system has anything on this shit. So you have a 'pyramid', and each level must have the same amount of skills or lesser than the level before it. I.E., you need four Average (+1) skills to have 4 Fair (+2) skills, and so on. On character creation, you have these set up in a descending order. 4 +1 skills, 3 +2 skills, etc. So, sure, okay, that's not too bad right? It's a little silly in concept, but it makes sense, as most people are jacks of all trades like that.

>I want to bump up one of my +3 skills to a +4!
Sure! That makes sense, you're already really good at this thing, so obviously you'd have an easier time of focusing on it as much as your starting +4.

Haha, no. Fate hates you, and fuck you for thinking otherwise. Because then you'd have two skills there and only one skill at +3, which you can't do because that 'imbalances' the 'pyramid', see. Then you realize the horrible truth. To get that +3 to +4, you have to first get another +1. Then you have to bump that +1 to 2, and then GET ANOTHER +1 so that bumping that new +2 to +3 doesn't imbalance the pyramid, and then you can cascade them up to the top until you have one more of every level of skill and how long did this take?

About as long as it took for GW to advance the story of 40k. You get minor and significant milestones, and the Significant ones, the ones that let you get NEW skills, are supposed to only come at the end of an adventure equivalent. So... You need two of those, at least. Minor ones come at the end of a session equivalent, and those let you swap skill positions around, which makes no sense from an in-character perspective but whatever. So you need at least two Significant and at least four Minor milestones to make that +3 a +4.

Fuck that.

>>53613405
Gonna clarify your points, you know, so that the guy can take an informed decision. You could see them as either pros or cons.

1: That's like that by design. In fact you are supposed to homebrew Fate from the very start to make it suit your game. You can play RAW, but you're supposed to hack the game.

2: Very true. It could be a dealbreaker or not, but that's how it works.

>>53613528
3: Use skill columns, then. Also consider that one skill at +4 basically means you're not just "good" in that, but that you're basically a fucking master at something; mastering one other thing should take a very long time. But you can always use skill columns or modes instead. See Fate Toolkit for more ideas.

>>53608081
Defiantly not nmi.
Palladium books is amazing your retarded.

>>53613589
I know all these solutions to the third one, but I'm a guy who's been playing/GMing Fate for years. Anon is a newbie who's never played it before, GMing for a person who loves Fate and may actually like doing it fully vanilla.

A better 'solution' to the third issue is pointing out that some people like games where crunchy mechanics are lesser and roleplaying ones are stronger. And in Fate, getting new Aspects is much easier than raising skills, and since invoking aspects gives a +2 bonus to any skill, which in Fate is a SIGNIFICANT bonus, it generally balances out anyway.

TL;DR: Problem 3 is more of a personal pet peeve than a system issue. It goes against my style, but it works for the style Fate is going for.

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>>53613661
It is amazing that Palladium has managed to maintain any sort of fanbase with their shitty quality print jobs, crappy AD&D based rules, and continually broken promises.

Also learn the difference between "your" and "you're." I'll help you. "If you're a Palladium fan-friend your taste in games is atrocious."

>>53610600
GMing Iron Kingdoms I actually quite like it. Instead of doing 40 damage on a crit in D&D and still just doing 1/3 or the monster's hp, every time you manage to get past someone's armor in IK it matters because they have such low hp. I can see how it could be executed badly though.

>>53601052
vampire the vigil

I call it that because my mother fucking GM keeps using vampire splats in our hunter games and I know its just because he has a hard on for the fags. I wouldn't even mind it I'd they weren't cancer incarnate and if the developers didn't have a hard on for not balancing splat books around one another. It sure feels great that my character that literally has every anti vampire benediction in the fucking system has a great chance of getting his ass kicked just because the GM decided to give his little bitch fag power fantasies resilience and celerity for the twentieth goddamn time.

>>53614011
Caring about your's what are you a face book kid with no arguments?

>>53614661
NMI, how are you finding time to post here? Isn't Kevvy's cock getting cold or has he moved on to a new tighter cocksleeve?

>>53614661
This is an English language board.

>>53614363
Is this Chronicles of Darkness or Old World of Darkness?
I need to know before calling you shit or not.

i see people shitting on every system in this thread i'm starting to think i should look for another hobby, i'm trying to get into this with some of my friends, what's a good system that can run a fantasy setting (or superpowers, but nothing op) and allow for epic boss fights (eventually) without complicated calculations (and rolling a lot of dices)? i've tried fate and dnd free book but i didn't like how magic is handled, tried gurps too and hated how you need to roll below a number to succeed with some numbers being automatically a win or a fail regardless of stats

>>53615421
Do note that this thread is extraordinarily negative and probably doesn't give you a full view on any of the games posted.

Personally, I'd say Savage Worlds would fit the bill for what you're looking for.

>>53615421

D&D 4e might work, the combat rules are simple but effective, although you need to use the math fixes for it all to run perfectly smoothly.

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>>53601052
Eoris, only because someone wrote this monstrosity and was satisfied with it. Someone created this and said "Yes, this is good. This will work. This is functional."

>>53614363
>vampire the vigil

wut

>>53615261
Chronicles. Call me a shitter all you want, but considering all this mealy mouthed fag seems to like to do is soak all the damage my traps do, then celerity for instant grapple bite or disarm, I think I have a right to call him a fag. Not to mention most of them having nightmare so I can't even risk willpower.

>>53615421
>>53615534
Strike! is a massively simplified version of 4e. It's a lot faster so it may fit your criteria better.
>>53615480
SW is also good.

Other stuff to check could be maybe simple stuff like Risus or Minisix, but I think SW strikes a nice balance between simplicity and crunch.

OSR stuff maybe? I quite like Barbarians of Lemuria.

>>53615581
I highly doubt functionality was a concern in the creation of this game.
Have you read (part of) the setting book?

>>53615581
how the fuck anybody can keep track of all this shit, way too much stats

>>53615605
C-could you not read one sentence farther, anon-kun? Its hunter the vigil, but the guy keeps throwing full power vampire splats our way and it's frustrating that even my guys only real specialty gets fucked over on a religious basis.

>>53615682
You know how you can tell that a car accident happened without being an auto mechanic?

I don't have to know the system to tell that the game is garbage. I can see it plain as day just from a glance.

>>53615728
I never said it isn't garbage.

>>53615690
Not THAT difficult, really. Most of it is just a list of skills with a simple number attached to each.

>>53601052
GURPS

In my opinion it is a strictly worse HERO system

I hate it because I think HERO is a really good generic system that had bad marketing and fell out of favor back in the day. They're really similar(even down to ignoramuses complaining how 'complex' they are while somehow playing pathfinder with no problems), but HERO seems more about
great action adventure and less about simulationism and realism so it really grinds my gears that GURPS got so big while HERO is pretty much only played by a few 50+ year old men.

Like, GURPS isn't even that bad, but I can't help but feel like it killed my systemfu.

>>53615765
Fair enough. And no, I haven't looked at the book, but I'm sure it's also a heaping pile of trash fire. Part of why I haven't read it is because I'm afraid it will turn me into a colossal faggot.

>>53604723
>FATE is a game made by GMs for GMs.
Oh my god

This explains so much about why I love FATE and why most FATE games I've been in have been hot garbage

>>53615817
>Part of why I haven't read it is because I'm afraid it will turn me into a colossal faggot.
wat

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PATHFINDER.

Back in the day, I fucking loved Paizo. I loved Dragon and Dungeon magazine. I loved that they were publishing their own adventures.

Then, of course, when the 4e announcements rolled around, Paizo decided to try their own hand at a game: Pathfinder.

I thought it sounded pretty neat. Their own game system, who knows what it might be like?

THEN IT TURNED OUT TO BE A FUCKING 3.5 CLONE

FUCK YOU PAIZO, LITERALLY MAKING A LIVING OFF THE GENEROSITY OF THE OGL

>>53615882
You look at that character sheet and tell me it wasn't design by the floweriest floofiest gayest cocksucker in the goddamn universe. You look me in the eye and tell me that the person who designed that isn't some kind of goddamn four-gendered otherkin omnisexual dyed-hair septum-pierced faggo.

>>53615480
>>53615534
>>53615641
thanks, looking into them atm, i'm not confident yet to run a homebrew so i'm looking for what feels right

Honestly any game with a dice pool. It's like the developers want you to not know your chances of success are at any given time and only have another die is better but you have no idea by how much. Just give us a damn chart with percentile if you want some weird curve of probability at least then we'd have a fucking idea of what a +1 is worth.

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>>53615886
I feel your pain, brother.
>"We fixed all of D&D 3.5's problems!"
>(game releases)
>"Surprise! Not only did we not fix any of the problems, we made the existing problems even worse!"
>mfw

>>53611293
>Be at a con
>See an even for a "Rules Lite" Shadowrun
>Have the timeslot free
>"Why not?"
>Show up
>Guy pulls out Anarchy rulebook
>It's smaller than shadowrun core
>...But not by much

The actual game was alright, we totally botched the run and my guy ended up getting arrested. But it didn't seem rules light by any stretch

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>>53615942

For 4e, a few simple things to remember-

Use the monster math from Monster Manual 3 and the Monster Vault, summed up in pic related.

Give every PC an Expertise feat and Improved Defence for free, as part of fixing the dodgy system math.

Beyond that, use funin.space to look things up, find a copy of the offline character builder to make chargen easier and I'd recommend you and your players looking up the various 4e handbooks. They're optimisation guides, but they also do a good job in general of evaluating all the options and letting you know how things work. I generally use them as a reference rather than following their advice, as 4e works fine in mid to low optimisation games.

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>>53615942
Here's a pitch for Strike!

...

I'd probably start with Lemuria and SW though, Strike! is pretty much acquired taste.

>>53615917
That is one impressive flash fire of insecurity.

>>53616031
Nah dude, I jack it to traps, a warm hole is a warm hole. But there's gay, and then there's GAY.

>>53615421
honestly? 5E is a good way to get started and I don't even like D&D.

>>53616048
You mean the difference between "homosexual" and "light-hearted, showy"?

>>53616097
I think "campy" is the word? I just know it's super gay. Rainbow undercut mohawk with a neon yellow tanktop gay.

>>53615581
it would be a beautiful sheet if the different segments were properly spaced

>>53615886
>FUCK YOU PAIZO, LITERALLY MAKING A LIVING OFF THE GENEROSITY OF THE OGL

And then this little faggot proceeded to sperg out even harder when he found out that copyright law doesn't even require an OGL to publish material and the only reason WotC and by extension Hasbro got away with forcing other RPG developers to purchase OGLs is because they have the millions of dollars required to take those developers to court with bullshit accusations of copyright infringement and keep them there for years, strangling them in infancy with a financial war of attrition. Why does it bother you that Paizo created an improved version of 3.5 and are making money? That's like getting mad at a musician for making a remix of a song.

I played 3.5 for three years before moving onto Pathfinder when it came out and I played that for about three more years before largely dropping out of the hobby. I suspect I cannot see the system's flaws because I'm so well versed in it. You guys keep talking about people who argue over rules interactions, which is something I don't get because I've been keeping up with the splatbooks as they've come out and I've never been confused as to how the rules play out. Can you guys give me more specific information about that? And any other complaints you have? I'll certainly admit that the Vancian spellcasting system should be replaced with something else.

Fantasy age. It's got some good ideas. It really feels like a first draft of someone's homebrew system. But it's not balanced, it lacks important info, it needs like 3x the content.

I like stunts in general, it seems fun.. I think it'd be cool to release fantasy age 2.0 with a bunch of fixes.

>>53616048
This man speaks wisdom. I'm a fagfag and I STILL think that game is way too gay.

>>53601052

Easy mode: D&D 4E. It's like the designers intentionally made it as wrong in every way as they could.

Hard mode: FATE. Way too metatextual and filled with "narrative" abilities instead of ones tied to real world. The whole concept just rubs me wrong. I don't want a roleplaying game reminding me every second that it isn't real.

>>53616174
Why doesn't someone ripping an idea off wholesale and selling it bother you? Especially in a market is rooted in the very idea of creativity as tabletop RPGs?

>>53616114
Nah, it's definitely not campy.
It's trippy. As in "made on drugs". And reading it gives you the feeling of "This must be what it's like to do drugs." And financed by drug money, if the rumors are to be believed.

>>53604184
Gee, good thing Shadowrunners never need to sneak or do gymnastics, you dumb fucking cunt.

>>53608120

It doesn't help that onyx path is a bunch of weird sjws. I went to their panel at gencon and it was so poorly run.. The whole audience was weirdos and they ran it like a conversation and anyone was encouraged to jump in and give their own gming tips but only the worst people would stand up and talk aggh

>>53616223
I don't believe that improving on extant ideas and profiting from doing so is wrong. Paizo didn't copy 3.5, they improved on it significantly: Grappling rules got cleaned up and combat maneuvers are relatively simple to resolve, casters are still king but the power gap between them and martials narrowed down considerably, exploitative multiclassing and prestige classing is all but gone, etc. Your definition of "ripping off" doesn't make sense to me and seems to disallow anyone and everyone from creating intellectual property unless it's like nothing else. To offer another analogy, I'm not pissed at the makers of the M-16 A4 for improving on the AR-15 design and then selling those guns for a profit.

>>53616474

>casters are still king but the power gap between them and martials narrowed down considerably

Bull fucking shit.

About the only thing I can really say Paizo did better was simplifying the skill list, but even then PF's skill list is still overly long and full of redundancies.

>>53613169
How do you figure? Not a DW fan but it's clearly a game.

>>53616474
>they improved on it significantly
>significantly
What you mention is minor stuff. Improving would mean to actually change 3.5's core because it's fucked from the very start, and what actually needed fixing was left untouched.

>>53616474
>casters are still king but the power gap between them and martials narrowed down considerably

Ha. Haha. HAHAHAHAHA! Oh fuck, is this what pathfags really, honestly believe?! Holy fucking shit, that's so god damn wrong I don't even know where to start with that total god damn bullshit.

You drank the Paizopunch without a second thought, anon. Holy shit.

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>>53616474
>Paizo didn't copy 3.5, they improved on it significantly
>pathfags

>>53613056
>For example in no other game one would dare to get their character straight into a complication
Silent Forest/Quiet Year. Fair that these two go deeper into indie mindset of 'is this an rpg? is this a narrative game?' hippy derpy side, especially with its rules on contempt tokens (I hope no group has ever had to use this), but the focus of every game session is for the entire group to communally tell the story of a settlement with players drawing cards from a deck and deciding whether the situation they will be choosing from the card will initially be good or problematic for the community. Nothing was made prior to the game, every character sprung up from someone's mind mid play, and more often than not their creation was made because they began a situation that forces the community to spend time and attention on whatever problem that character is the center of.

For more standard rpg systems, nWoD's willpower refresh is all about making decisions of whether the player is willing to hold out and be goodie goodie, or start doing petty small things to get willpower pts back.

Finally there's Maid, where the whole point is getting character into a a large mess as pleasing the GM's PC is the only way to get XP. There's also little to no resistance for players to not play aggressive or make up their own problems because no one dies - hitting 0 in the 'HP system' just makes the character blow up in emotional rage

>>53603918
there is a 3e....of Unknown Armies?

>boner intensifies

>>53616677

Yep! The Kickstarter for it was a while ago, but I think the pdfs have reached the share thread by now.

>>53616174
>Why does it bother you that Paizo created an improved version of 3.5 and are making money?
Frankly, the fact that Pathfinder is not an improvement at all. It's actually worse in several areas.

>>53603630
Apocalypse World itself is a little up its own ass with its kind of bizarre mix of pretension and weird emphasis on sex, but Monster of the Week and The Sprawl are both perfectly readable and playable.

>>53608197

HELL YES FROM THE CONGREGATION!!!!

>>53602660
Most discussions on d&d is complaining about it anyways

>>53616907
Patently untrue

>>53616496
>>53616523
>>53616525
>>53616556
>>53616692

Asked for specific criticisms so I could understand what you guys were talking about and all I get is indistinct bitching. In 3.5 you had PunPun, the Hulking Hurler that was literally capable of throwing a rock with mass equal to Pluto and dealing 1.4 million d4s of damage on hit, and a million other crazy ass builds that resulted from multiclassing, prestige classing, and item exploits. There ain't no Pun Pun in Pathfinder. Swashbucklers' panache is strong, barbarians' rage powers let them do a shit ton of things and made them so much more useful, armor and weapon training is bretty gud for fighters. Meanwhile metamagic isn't as powerful as it was in 3.5, no reserve feats, no more erudites that learn every goddamn power.

>>53617002
>Meanwhile metamagic isn't as powerful as it was in 3.5
Dazing Spell and Persistent Spell would like to have a word with you.

Anything by Palladium, but particularly Rifts. I despise the convoluted knot of rules and massive series of books and yet more rules to its nonsensical trashcan setting.

>>53614363
Anon,
....
Your GM is a huge, Huge, HUGE, - H U G E - faggot.

please tell him i said that.

>>53617002
Edge cases may have been fixed, but casters got a slew of class features without addressing the problems created by metamagic while martials were further nerfed by splitting relevant feats into smaller pieces so that even with the increased number of feats, they end up with less of what they need.

>>53617002
>Swashbuckler's panache is strong

I have stopped looking at PF in the last year or so.

Did they add something to it, or is it literally "I guess I can parry 2+crits times a day"?

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>>53601052
Here's my personal top 3. Instead of just ranting and raving I'm going to explain what the system does well, why I dislike it anyway, and what I'd recommend you play instead.

>Numenera / The Cypher System
The Good: The game is quick to play and quick to learn, with a number of interesting options. Single-use magic items are interesting in theory.
The Bad: There's no reason why this game needs to use 1d20. It's really bland. Combat and healing are broken to all hell. Monsters are literally one number plus 2-3 special quirks and are dull as paste.
I Recommend: Gamma World 7E. The setting is more interesting and relatable, it's just as simple to learn and play, and it has all the interesting one-time-use gadgets PLUS random mutations your character gains and loses over the course of play.

>Anima: Beyond Fantasy
The Good: The game gives you a ton of freedom and lets you play all sorts of over-the-top anime character archetypes. The setting is vast with some interesting places to go and things to do.
The Bad: It's insanely complicated to learn and make a character for. It's not balanced in the slightest. The setting is a ridiculous science fantasy mishmash that makes no sense.
I Recommend: D&D 4E. Pick a class that fits the archetype you're going for and use that instead. It'll be much more balanced and you won't have to wait around for three weeks while the wizard slowly gets his mana back.

>Shadowrun 5th Edition
The Good: The setting is really interesting and it's fun as heck to plan cyberpunk heists with wizards.
The Bad: It's a janky broken mess of a system. I hate making characters for it, I hate GMing it. It's overcomplicated and frustrating for seemingly no reason.
I Recommend: Corporation. It's pretty simple, roll 2d10 and try and roll under your Stat + Skill (which range from 1-10 each), plus or minus modifiers. There's psychic powers which can be better adapted into magical abilities, and the augmentation rules are great too.

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>>53615917

>that entire reply

i like you.
shall i send you a box of shotgun shells, 7,62 soviet, or a Thermite grenade?

>>53601052
FATE probably, its just way to lite where it feels like theres no game to the rpg and sure you can make "anything" but theres so few mechanical distinction between characters that everything feels the same.

>>53617149
>Gamma World 7E
Is there a full collection of the randomly distributed cards as PDF somewhere?

>>53617052
Dude, Persistent Spell is in 3.5 too, only it doesn't make the target reroll a save, it causes a non-instantaneous spell with a range of personal to last for 24 fucking hours and was regarded as one of the most horribly broken feats in the game. So no, it doesn't have those specific mechanical fuckups, but it has its own abortions that were worse. Fell Animate raised everything your spell kills as zombies/skeletons and Sculpt Spell turned Color Spray and a lot of other spells into real problems.

>>53617099
Holy shit, a real response. What are you talking about when you say that martials had their feats chopped up?

>>53617113
Swashbucklers have been strong from the start. Add your swashbuckler level to every attack and damage roll made using a light or one-handed piercing weapon as long as you have one panache point at level three. Spend a point to double that bonus for one attack. Lots of passive bonuses start adding up as you level: +2 initiative, don't take penalties for moving at full speed while attempting an acrobatics check to move through an enemy's space, stand from prone without provoking an AoO, gain evasion, gain improved uncanny dodge, etc. All as long as you have one panache point.

>>53615641
>>53616029
Stop shilling Strike!

Why does /tg/ keep shilling Strike!?

>>53617002
Theoretical op isn't relevant to a discussion about a game beyond pointing out holes in it. Realistically the upper echelon of stupid shit you'd see while actually playing 3.5 was Iot7V.

Meanwhile in PF, a Druid can no-bullshit start with a 20 STR animal companion right at level 1, Summoners exist, no martial in PF is anywhere close to as good as the Warblade was, PrCs are by and large shit, there are Wizards who not only count their initiative as a natural 20 all the fucking time but can't be surprised AND add half their level to their initiative check so they always always ALWAYS go first, and Sacred Geometry exists AND IS BETTER THAN FUCKING INCANTATRIX WAS.

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>>53617409
>Swashbucklers have been strong from the start.

>>53617409
You understand that all the swashbuckler's +1/level does is catch their damage up to someone using a two handed weapon, right? Since they can't take as much advantage of power attack and the benefits of two handing.

They are nothing special, just a fighter with some very shitty class abilities instead of bonus feats.

>>53617443
>>53617540
And now I'm learning. Could you guys keep going?

>>53601906
My group couldn't get past character creation. Character/skills/items/augments/magic is too many steps for five people in one day.

>>53617674
If you really want to play SR5...

Use the Chummer character generator thing and have a good idea what you want.

If you don't, play one of the premades.

At this point I'd just play The Sprawl or Interface Zero in SW, if that's more your speed.

>>53606338
Preach, brother. Amen.

>>53617002
Because it's been stated over. And over. And over.

AND OVER AGAIN, how shitty PF is. It's been mathed to death. It's been explained thoroughly. The fact that you're new doesn't mean we're going to spoonfeed you. If you actually dare to go look up PF is considered to be so shit, you'll learn.

Actually, since I'm nice, I'll tell you one little fun fact: Monk was made intentionally underpowered in PF, a class that was already one of the WORST in 3.5, because the head dev of PF doesn't like Monks. Literally, he let his own personal biases ruin a class that was already shit. As >>53617443 stated, one Caster has a class feature that, by itself, is better than AN ENTIRE CLASS.

Fighter has the same problems it did in 3.5, in that it has nothing going for it but extra feats. Feats were terrible in 3.5 because they were obscenely bloated; Getting to one feat that Fighters need can and usually do take 2-3 more feats before they can get it, feats that are underpowered and honestly useless. In PF, this is even worse, because many of the only good feats have been outright nerfed. In fact, many of the martial classes have been nerfed, when they needed a buff, and casters have been buffed in several areas, when they honestly needed nerfs instead. The reason I laughed at what you said was because PF has INCREASED the Martial/Caster divide with no good reason why. The only viable martial classes in PF are Barbarian and Rogue, and the former struggles to keep up if it can at all, while the Rogue is a glass cannon that can barely fill its role, what with Casters having spells that negate the need for the Rogue's basic class features, with one of the most infamous being the Knock spell, which unlocks locked anythings without any check needed.

Actually, Fatal and Friends did an article on Pathfinder. It's REALLY long and lost even my attention span near the middle, but it exhaustively details more or less everything wrong with PF, from organization choices to crunch.

>>53617890
Ayyyyy, thank you for spoonfeeding me. I'll read that article.

>>53617443
As a largely unimportant aside, I looked into that Wizard class feature and you only get the 20-as-initiative-roll at level twenty, which means that's basically irrelevant for 95% of the game. Or maybe you start off at a higher level at the DM's discretion, but whatever, you get the point. And you're right about the summoner, Sacred Geometry, and the animal companion.

>>53602708

Ever since a friend tried to start a Scion campaign and the system repelled everyone else, I've been idly toying with the idea of hacking together some other rules for the setting. Because I liked the setting.

>>53618051
>Ayyyyy, thank you for spoonfeeding me. I'll read that article.

Don't point out the inconsistency in behavior! It's not like I LIKE you or anything, b-baka.

>>53618051
Well, getting your level to initiative and being unable to be surprised are pretty beefy to begin with. It ensures you win initiative against just about everyone, especially if you grab all the shit to pump your initiative as you should.

>>53603881

Is Unknown Armies the system with the knife fight rules where, no matter how well you do against your opponent, you're always getting cut? Because I love that idea.

>>53618051
>>53618161

Also, do not let me stop you from unironically enjoying PF. It needs a lot of work, and a GM that knows how and why it's bullshit, but you can definitely have fun with 3.pf. It's harder than some other systems, but possible.

I just don't want to let someone become another Pathfag that refuses to understand the system is brutally broken.

Pathfinder is the worst, and my group almost exclusively play it. No system should be as limiting as Pathfinder.

A class feature for using Mage Hand to pickpocket? Great, every other mage on the planet loses the ability to conceive dipping an invisible hand into someone's knapsack.

Multiply this by every feat and class and you need to dip multiple levels and waste several feat choices to be able to whistle while you cook.

>>53601052
For me its weird. I have a love hate realtionship with Pendragon. I love it when its running normally, but it a bitch if something needs to be looked up. None of the books are laid out sensibly, they reference stuff without page numbers, sometimes with a different name than what its listed as.

But for actual hate, its got to be WHFRP 1st ed. The whole thing is burdened down with the old fantasy fluff, and the way exp works is way too different to all the other warhammer roleplay groups, so it can't be used to transfer characters over systems, which is one of my favourite things to do. Also, the profession system limits freedom of character.

>>53618228

That's dumb though. Just because a feature grants you a guaranteed or better way doesn't mean nobody else can, just that whatever method they use should be inferior to give the feature some meaning.

The idea that by existing it becomes exclusively the only way to do it is ridiculous.

>>53618246
The issue is that by making such a feat, Paizo announces that this is intended. That you're not supposed to be able to do that without the feat. That said, I don't get why you can't just ignore it, aside from the fact that Mage Hand isn't supposed to be able to do things requiring such fine dexterity by RAW.

>>53601906
Came here to post this.
What the fuck this systeme.
None of my player could even comprehend how to play their classe. The munchkin even got a rule nausea and WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU NEED SO MUCH DICE JESUS CHRIST.
The saddest thing is that the setting is one of my favorite. It's full of good ideas, great to roleplay but impossible to play.

>>53618246
>whatever method they use should be inferior to give the feature some meaning
How inferior? -2? -4? What category does that penalty belong to?

Why not just let people use mage hand creatively in the first place, instead of trying to give meaning to another pointless feat or class feature? I understand Paizo has to pad out their books with something, but why even bother?

It's the same as the insane two-weapon fighting feat tree. Why not just let characters competently use two weapons at once?

>>53618207
Fair point. Improved Initiative plus that feature plus a decent Dex score of, say, fourteen yields a +7 bonus at level one.

>>53618217
The funny thing is that I'm not pro-Pathfinder in any meaningful sense. Prior to posting here I was of the opinion that ability scores should just be replaced with ability bonuses, the Vancian spell system needs to be ditched in favor of something that utilizes an energy resource pool, and the magic items are just plain fucked in the way they impact combat. I just wasn't aware of what people were saying outside of those concerns.

>>53618431
Don't forget familiar for an extra +4.

So, +11.

I mean, you can still roll badly... but you got that other feature to fix that.

It's no nerveskitter, but then again, it doesn't take slots.

>>53618431
You're honestly mirroring two of the biggest complaints towards d20 systems in general, though the magic item thing is not a big problem to me. Magic items, IMO, are fine. The issue comes with their interaction with classes, such as how martial classes can't easily use most of them, yet are blatantly and totally reliant on using magic items to be effective. When the class that can cast fireball anyway is the only one who can use a wand of fireball, there's a problem there. I've always been of the school of thought that scrolls and wands should be mostly use by classes that can't use those spells themselves, rather than classes that can innately cast them. Of course, there's something to be said of a caster using these so they don't run out of spells, but... A caster with a few uses of Color Spray breaks the early game already without giving them a wand that can cast the spell 50 more times.

>>53618431
Spheres of Power or the Psionics handbooks (3rd party for both) are a great alternative for spellcasters.

Really, if there's one thing Pathfinder can say it excels at is third party support.

>>53618539

Well, Paizo seems to have been actively trying to fuck with DSP lately

>>53618574
Probably because they released two splatbooks that even fans of PF admit are honestly better and more balanced than the vanilla game. Knowing how petty the lead dev of PF is, I wouldn't put it past him throwing Paizo's weight to stamp out things like that.

Not a fan of Fiasco

Was kind of forced to play it during a car ride back from Origins.

I want my RP to have G in it, otherwise it's just glorified thespian practice, and an actor I am not, especially not when the scenario they choose is "Beverly Hills Housewives" or some shit.

I just wrapped up blowing shit up in a wargame. That's what I signed up for. Don't give me a 180 and force me to play that shit while trapped in the back seat of a rental car. I would refuse any other time.

>>53618539

Can you elaborate upon Spheres of Power. What makes it good? I took a look at it a while ago, and I wasn't seeing how it fixes PF in a significant way. Then again I'm not that savvy on PF no more since I have moved on to other systems.

>>53615581
DOTS! I FUCKING LOVE DOTS!
Why write numbers when YOU CAN USE DOTS?!

>>53618666
1. Thematic (and to a lesser extent, functional) grouping of abilities. Your fire wizard/cleric has to devote himself to be a fire wizard/cleric and can't switch his entire concept around in a day.
2. Less, but scaling abilities. Your abilities scale so you want have a bunch of low level spells that are now worthless.
3. Point based casting system. It's just simpler than Vancian.

It's not really THAT great, psionics is probably a safer bet, but it leads to much more focused characters and I prefer the mechanics.

>>53618787

Thanks for the summary!

>>53618513
Magic items that just add a numerical bonus to a stat are a problem because there's no real flavor there and it accomplishes is stat bloat for the monsters. A monster of X CR is generally expected to face a party of X level, so you anticipate what equipment they have and of course they're going to have magical weapons and armor, of course they'll have cloaks of resistance, of course they'll have rings of deflection and amulets of natural armor. This means you need to add Y onto the monsters saves, AC, etc. But yeah, fighters should be able to use scrolls at minimum because they need it the most.

>>53618539
Psionics are bretty gud, I've read that shit. Haven't read Spheres of Power.

>>53618574
How have they been fucking with DSP? That would be seriously dumb.

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>>53618574

>>53618943

The latest mainline Pathfinder Psionics release was a half arsed hackjob apparently intended to just give an 'official' alternative to quash DSP sales, meanwhile they've been naming random official things the same as DSP classes to create confusion. It's just rumours, but I've heard more than a few different people talking about it being targeted rather than coincidental.

>>53618943
I could take the time to point out that CR is shit and often does not accurately represent a monster's power or its threat to the party, but that's hardly relevant here. Except to the topic of PF being shit.

>>53603884
>GURPS.

the GURPS fanbase annoys me more than the game itself. Because of how modular it is, you will never ever get one of them to admit that the system has any flaws. Like you just buy GURPS and you'll never have to play another RPG as long as you live

"oh well if you don't like that rule, just cut it out and replace it with this other rule from one of the ten billion splats!!!" As far as they're concerned GURPS is the one solution for every genre and style of game. I've seen people unironically recommend it as the replacement for everything from D&D to Call of Cthulhu to Shadowrun to Dungeon World

>>53619230
I would definitely run GURPS over Shadowrun unless it was going to be an all-mage/shamans game or something.

>>53606116
lol at these pathfinder babbies getting upset about you not liking their game in a thread about game you don't like

>>53619230

I mean, you technically can do all that, but it'll still be GURPS.

How much you like the system seems to be based on how much you care about mechanical tone and texture. If you don't give a fuck, you'll love GURPS. If you really enjoy mechanical tone, you'll hate GURPS.

GURPS is like tofu. You can make tofu into almost anything... But it's still tofu.

>>53619255
that says more about the state of Shadowrun than it does about GURPS imo

>>53604184
>This almost never comes up in actual gameplay
So why bother with the rule, then?

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>>53617262
Yes. Here's some of them. The game is out of print if I recall, so I don't see any harm in sharing it. I recommend the Famine in Far-Go expansion if you want to play, it includes 20 new Origins, another adventure, and some really good lore information in the form of Cryptic Alliances.

You can make additional Alpha Mutations and Omega Tech yourself pretty easily. They're meant to replace the Daily powers of D&D 4E so you can probably adapt any level 1-10 Daily Power as one of them. I think they also sometimes replicate feats and magic items so you can use existing 4E books as a treasure trove for ideas.

>>53619576
Thanks.
Although, "some of them" implies that's not all. What about the rest?

>>53619576
I love the Aquatic Adaptation's overcharge. There need to be more mechanics where people think they have powers they don't really have.

>>53619230
>"oh well if you don't like that rule, just cut it out and replace it with this other rule from one of the ten billion splats!!!"
Never played or read it, but its shilling is basically a parody of the "there's a million splatbooks" and "houserules exist" arguments.

>GURPS does anything!
>want this thing
>there's rules for that! somewhere!
>hate this thing
>then don't use it! duh!

This makes it impossible to learn anything about the system, good or bad, because every "discussion" is just vague, almost religious handwaving about how GURPS has a plan for us all.

>>53619459
Looks like it's good for discouraging minmaxing. Limit is based on averaging stats, so a character who puts a lot into a single physical, mental, or social stat will hit it a lot more often than someone who spreads the stats out more.

>>53619896

...That's encouraging minmaxing, not discouraging it. 'minmax' literally comes from the idea of keeping one or more stats low to boost one ludicrously high.

>>53601052
Fantasycraft. I want to like it, it promised to do a lot of things better than 3.5/pathfinder and for a while it seemed like everybody was praising it backwards and forwards. So I bought it, read through it and holy shit. So much more shit. Feats are better but so much of the game is clunkier than before. It claims to be heavily narrative focused but so many fucking rules and shit are in the way. Conceptually I love how you can scale monsters and npc's to whatever level to create your own fantasy world BUT its a fucking pain in the ass and not optional. Instead of pulling up whatever monster out of the monster section and getting to play you instead have to look at the statblock and crossrefference the attribute chart to essentially build it from the ground up. This bullshit just gets in the way if you are trying to run an open player oriented game.

>>53619886
What were you trying to do, exactly? There's almost always multiple approaches in GURPS.

>>53615796
I think it's because Hero began as Champions while GURPS began as a generic system right out of the gate and to be fair Champions was the first name in superhero RPGs for over two decades before Mutants & Masterminds rolled into town surfing the d20 wave.

>>53617435
It's mostly one guy. He posts with a name specifically so that people can see that he's the one doing it.

>>53619958
No, it discourages it, because if you have imbalanced stats, the big one will be above the limit and your results on it will regularly bump up against said limit, making the extra useless. On the other hand, stats which are closer together will have a limit at or above your stats, meaning it'll only bump against the limit in rare circumstances.

>>53621395
>, it discourages it, because if you have imbalanced stats, the big one will be above the limit and your results on it will regularly bump up against said limit, making the extra useless

Weren't you JUST saying how you always have edge to spend on bypassing the limit? Making it better to minmax and only have to deal with a single stay bumping the limit instead of multiple ones?

>>53621573
Different anon. Besides, that doesn't follow - you're going to expect the same level of Edge dependency or more if you have one stat which bumps any time you roll an above average result versus three stats which only bump in very unusual circumstances. That way you can keep edge for when you need it instead of for whenever you want to roll the numbers your oversized stat gives you.

>>53619727
I have them around somewhere but I can't be sure. Check out the PDF share thread, they have troves with 4E and Gamma World stuff in them. Good luck.

>>53621654
The difference seems to be between having to use edge only when you use your "main" stay (which is retarded) vs having to use it whenever you roll particularly well (which is also retarded).

>>53622202

This is the general takeaway. No matter how they work, limits are retarded.

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>>53619269
>>53619886
I don't think I totally disagree with you guys, but I'll say this:

A big part of the flavor needs to come from the GM. They decide what the tone of the game will be, and then pick the rules that will facilitate that tone.

It sounds like this is what's frustrating you guys. I disagree that GURPS is tofu; it's one of those kitchens that they have available in iron chef or whatever. All the ingredients you could ever want are there, ready for use AS LONG AS you know how to use them.

This leads to the somewhat frustrating situation where, in order to run GURPS to full potential, you essentially need to be the tabletop equivalent of a professional chef. Then when people complain about how all the dishes they make taste like shit, people who know GURPS really well go
>just don't use that ingredient
>don't boil that so long
Etc. Etc. And then people get annoyed and declare that GURPS has no flavor.

GURPS is much like 3.pf, in that it requires a degree of system mastery to play, but that system mastery is on the side of the GM, not the players