/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

>>53597257
>Have you ever set in the middle east?

I lived in Dubai for a couple months for work and I ran a requiem game based on the city for some friends when I got back.

What are some good "oh shit" panic buttons for Mages, when you are in a sticky situation and need to get out quickly?

Stuff like Space 4 Teleportation, Death 4 Shadow Flesh, retreating into the Twilight, etc. Preferably as low level as possible.

>>53597257

>Have you ever set in the middle east?

Nah.


My oWoD:

>Mainly a vampire setting.

>Hunters exist. There are no herolds/angels. Hunters are basically humanities immune reaction. Conflict between the more traditional inquisition and newe Hunters with Psy etc.

>Werewolfs have no of the spirit/umbra shit. They are very physical beeings. Its more of a curse and werewolfs are a huge threat to a masquerade. They have no society and are hunted by vampires when they arise (they are pretty rare).

>Zombies and Undead exist. Zombies are the mindless shambers easy to control by giovanni etc.

Undeads (not wraith or some of the other more exotic splats) are returned souls who occupy a dead body. This body rots and needs to be sustained with fresh human parts/human meat (not entirely sure). Walking masquerade risk and viciously hunted by vamps and hunters alike.

>Ghosts exist but are mostly harmless. Only very powerful ghosts have the power to truly influence the real world on the places they haunt. If they acquire a body they become undeads.

>>53597712
That's kind of tricky you want general escape utility? Practice of veiling and hoof it.

I think every path other than an Acanthus has a way of turning 'invisible' from chargen.

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>>53597257
>Have you ever set in the middle east?

Once played a "hunters hunted" game set in middle east, yeah. Was okay, but nothing amazing ever came off it... probably because none of the players or the GM had ever actually been to the Middle-East and knew next to nothing about it except for what we'd seen on TV (which obviously isn't always the best place to get reliable information from, when it comes to such a topic).

That does remind me, though... has anyone ever run a VtM game set during either of the World War eras?

If so, what was it like?

How could you explain other splats using only one splat pov and supernatural knowledge?

>>53597795
>That's kind of tricky you want general escape utility?

Yeah. Ways to escape from a powerful, unexpected threat. Like, I turn a corner and there is a pack of werewolves on the other side of the block.

>Practice of veiling and hoof it

The ST loves throwing Supernaturals at our cabal, and that tactic works less and less.
Werewolves can smell you, so Force 2 invisibility doesn't work.
Mind 2 Incognito Presence doesn't work on Spirits, and our Thyrsus keeps losing his Clash of Wills.

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>>53598143
yes

>>53596743
How a Mage with low wisdom deals with his problems?

>>53598157
Mages would be the best at this, but I'm not sure what example to write out.

>>53598164
Ban is a perfect counter against Werewolves.

Most of the time at least.

>>53598157
Besides Mages who have a kind of universal POV with the Arcana but their interpretations aren't always right the only ones I can think of who even would give a stab would be Beasts who view everything magic as degenerate kin.

Mages would probably conceptualize things through the arcana and not get function wrong necessarily but the how and why likely would be way off the mark. I doubt any could guess about Wolf by looking at a werewolf and just going 'oh wow you're spirit and flesh at once, how fascinating!'

>>53598157
In oWoD, Werewolves see vamps and Nephandi Mages as being corrupted by the Wyrm, and Technocrats as being agents of the Weaver.

oWoD Changelings see Technocrats as Banality incarnate.

Technocrats, of course, have decided that "hemophages, shapeshifters, and dimensional intruders" are Reality Deviants, who will be dealt with once they get the Traditions, Nephandi, and Marauders out of the way.

>>53598164
Prime 2 is arguably the best 'invisibility' effect if you go by the literal interpretation of the example spell.

If you have someone w/ Time 1 you can figure out what you'll be facing and tailor your spells towards that.

I know that's vague but it's really hard to give general advice on what to do without knowing exactly the lead up to your cabal getting the hell out of dodge. Because the consequences will be different. Firebombing some vampires is acceptable if they decided to attack you out of the blue but not so much if they're trying to get you to pay your overdue bat tab.

>>53598295
There would be splat experts among the Orders, I reckon. Individuals that know precisely where other such supernaturals stem from.

>>53598241
No need for such theatrics they're still living creatures. Have the Thyrsus or Mastigos put them to sleep for a couple hours.

>>53598157
I'm always a fan of Vampires in oWoD meeting Mages. But only if I'm running Mage, because its only hilarious when its someone else's day you're ruining.

Case in point, imagine you are a heavily minmaxed 400 lb Mexican cartel member Brujah. You run drugs for pretty much the entire city and beyond. You are, through Disciplines, the single strongest, fastest, and most durable thing you have ever seen. You are an inhuman horror living in a pseudo-Biblical backdrop.

One day a cowboy who looks like Chris Hemsworth and a japanese girl in full Sohei armor teleports into your room, paralyzes you with an Ofuda, communicates telepathically at length about what to do about you, kills you [on accident] when you try and escape, somehow managing to keep up with you despite running like 80 miles an hour, and then call up your spirit from Hell to interrogate.

Its a "What the shit GM?" kind of feel.

>>53598335
>a cowboy who looks like Chris Hemsworth
>a japanese girl in full Sohei armor

This is why people hate Ascension

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>>53598414
It is pulp and I will not apologize for that.

If you want to fight cyborgs in space with kung fu and magic spells, you play Ascension.

If you want to play Scooby Doo Mysteries, you play Awakening.

>>53598414
I'm pretty sure its actually why people love it.

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fuck yeah pulp wizards

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>>53598490

I ran 2 games of CoD Mortals set in 1950s Cairo
One serial-killer murder investigation found online, and one taken from Urban Legends with crocodiles in the sewers
It went pretty well but I think that my lack of knowledge of the setting may have hindered my GMing

>>53598306
i thought technocrats literally didn't care about fairies at all since they'll be exterminated when the technocrat paradigm wins as a byproduct

>>53590818
Yeah. Go see the Q and A on their channel.

63 minutes.

42 minutes of people shouting variations of "PROBLEMATIC!" while LARPing Buzzword: The Buzzwordening. 21 minutes of actual questions.

>>53598888
Is it really THAT bad?

>>53598470

You can fight cyborgs in space with kung fu and magic spells in Awakening, and you can play Scooby Doo Mysteries in Ascension.

>>53599110
Are you surprised at all considering the last few books?

>>53598888

Link?

>>53599132
>You can fight cyborgs in space with kung fu and magic spells in Awakening,
not without massive setting hacks where as
> and you can play Scooby Doo Mysteries in Ascension.
Can be done natively, because its a far more robust gameline.

>>53599229
Food porn makes a robust gameline now?

>>53599251
Pretending M20 is the whole gameline is retarded.

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>>53599229

Bioelectric Prosthesis are already a thing in real life. Enchanted Objects and Perfected Materials are things. Boom, sleepwalker cyborgs.

Adamant Hand and Law of Embodiment are also things. Boom, magic kung fu.

This little tidbit under Space 3... gee, I wonder what they're talking about.

>>53599315
Pretending ascension isn't retarded.

>>53599349
>.25ft^2/min

lol

>>53599349
Yes sir, if anything teleporting around the universe is easier in awakening 2e than ascension.

>>53599396

The only "problem" I can think of is that there's no canon details on whats out there besides occasional mentions of the god machine and the few idigam who haven't hitched a ride to earth yet.

>>53599315
Nigger, M20 *is* Ascension now. Outdated editions don't count. It's healthier just to accept it.

>>53599527
M20 literally references other books by name you fucking retard.

>>53599396

I imagine there are several cabals trying to get their fingernail clippings on the next mars rover.

>>53599527

I'm sure mage 5e will be a total trainwreck

>>53599349
>This little tidbit under Space 3... gee, I wonder what they're talking about.
I was pretty sure that had to do with Ban which was on the same page, and how long it would take someone in there to suffocate.

>>53599226
https://youtu.be/8fhpXrrLBsI

>>53599717

So is Co-locate.

One of the differences between Ascension and Awakening is that magic in awakening isn't mechanistic - IE, concepts & intent matter. Ban, like Shielding, has to do with "protection." Trying to "protect" someone from oxygen is asinine.

>>53599349
>Bioelectric Prosthesis are already a thing in real life. Enchanted Objects and Perfected Materials are things. Boom, sleepwalker cyborgs.

Transhuman Engineers are also a thing, and becoming cyborg wizards would be a dream come true for them.

>This little tidbit under Space 3... gee, I wonder what they're talking about.

Its about how you can suffocate people by using Space magic. Specifically, the spell Ban, which makes it so that nothing can leave or enter a certain area.

>>53599971
Well in Ban they explicitly say that without other arcana, neither light nor air gets in. I've used Ban in a game to trap and knock out someone before. My character got a pizza and drank a few beers while trying to guess when they'd be passed out finally.

Magic is all about creativity in use too.

>>53600037
>My character got a pizza and drank a few beers while trying to guess when they'd be passed out finally

You sound like an asshole.

>>53600053
This was a break in to his own home, he was deliberately being an asshole because he was mad.

>>53600053
Mages are supposed to be assholes, right?

>>53600035
>>53600037

At no point does it say I can't use a space rock and a matter enchanted spacesuit to co-locate to another planet

>>53600185

In fact I imagine that Celestial Masters and Thrice-Great do this fairly frequently

>>53598335
>>53598414
This is why people hate Mage players.

Poison.

>>53600185
You totally could do that. Have fun trying to not get sucked into the portal though.

>>53600337
The portal isn't always open. You have to willingly cross it to bring yourself or move things through it. Otherwise it is basically a window.

>>53600442
Hes saying its a window to the vacuum of space, you'd nominally get sucked in.

>>53599551
Only to overrule them. :^)

>>53600463
Yes but it isn't an open one. When you co-locate normally you smear two locations over one another that in no way interact but mages with Space sight can interact across both or step from one to the other. When you make a portal it is just you make it two dimensional where it touches but it still doesn't interact any more or less without willingly going "I step through the portal and want to go to space" or "I reach through to get that moon rock and bring it back" but it doesn't open a giant hole for atmosphere to leak through

>>53600463
Doesn't work like that.

>>53600285

Mages are the batshit looney secret masters. When people rant about the Illuminati and they aren't full of shit, they probably had a run in with mages.

Not their fault most people don't know there are different factions.

>>53596809
>you had me until this point
The writers of the books were writing from a different stance on those kinds of topics; the Traditions were undeniably the author chosen protagonists of the setting. The heroes, even, written to be good and in the right, and fighting the good fight. They're the diverse ones full of love and fun, behind Woodstock and the Civil Rights Movement and Rock and Roll and everything 20-somethings in the 90's loved.

The protags were typically those who gave up everything good in life to have the freedome to overdose on anything and everything, while fucking in the mud like dogs attending Woodstock. At least the ones who weren't Kung-Fu action wizardz.

>>53599475
Wizard space pirates.

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>>53601055
When the Traditions say that the Technocracy is the cause of all this badness, and when the Technocracy blames the Traditions, they're mistaken, because everyone were at fault by letting it happen. So I guess trying to make the world a better place by punching the Technocracy in the face is off the table then? Seems like a bit of a mean rug-pull; three editions of the same gameline setting up the Technocracy as the enemy that, if defeated, will allow the world to become full of joy... and then, nope, everyone's fault, destroying the Technocracy won't change a thing. It seems weird, to reify the problems of the world in the Technocracy, and then claim that defeating the Technocracy won't fix the problems it represents.

A reminder that the Traditions what us to embrace a form of Mystic-Primitivism that sees the magically empowered few as the ruling class. That'll be a hard sell to make toward many sizeable demographics.

If all the playable supernaturals had formed into a single unifying government, would the Mages be the ones to run things?

>>53601376
They're too busy chasing their obsessions to really govern for shit. It'd probably wind up being Changelings since their experience with contracts and bargaining might make them good mediators between groups and keeping everyone from murdering one another, while the more powerful splats all have their own shit to deal with. Mage obsessions, mummies hunting relics and fighting Deceived, and Demons pretening they don't exist so the God-Machine doesn't notice them

>>53601055

Guide to the Traditions has a segment where they sell us on the whole "It's not white and black hats" thing. Trads have used tactics including terrorism and mass murder in the ascension war, just like the Technocracy.

Also I think mage should have ditched the Metaphysical Trinity. It's roughly crowbarred in at several points and takes me out of the game. "Oh, each of the factions embodies this element"

>>53601275

I recall in the Virtual Adepts book when they discuss the OoH, they mention that if the Hermetics had opened up the system to everyone, there wouldn't be a Technocracy, there'd be an Order.

If the Virtual Adepts can't drag the Trads into the 21st century

>>53601376

OWoD - They already do.

NWoD - Only the Free Council would have anyone interested in a government of supernaturals. Other factions would be more interested in using it to pursue their obsessions and ignore it when it's in the way. And if the government gets uppity....

>>53601489

If the Virtual Adepts can't drag the Trads into the 21st century, there won't be any more traditions for better and worse.

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>>53601376
>He wants a magickal serial killer nihilist who worships Cthulhu to sit on the throne.
Get a load of this guy.

Why not have a... representational government composed of the members standing to fairly represent the interests of all represented members, to be overseen by a single elected official?

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>>53601668
>to fairly represent the interests of all represented members
I meant just THEIR members, hence subdivision into comities and congresses.

Is there an equivalent or similar to nagaraja in NWOD? I dont care about the powers, just the flesh eating part.

>>53601020
>Not their fault most people don't know there are different factions.
Mages are not taught about other factions until they are ready to learn the TRUTH. They are only taught as much as it is convenient to keep them tied to their master(s) as chattel. And even then, they are often fed with lies... to protect them from the truth, of course, if not to test them. (Further lies)

>>53599527
M20 tells you to play in any part of the metaplot and what-not, you filthy doublewulf.

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>>53599527
>Nigger, M20 *is* Ascension now. Outdated editions don't count. It's healthier just to accept it.

>The Akashayana: Renouncing the innate chauvinism of its westernized name, the Akashic Brotherhood formally adopts its insider name as the default form of address.

>The Kha'vadi: Abandoning its "slave name," the Dreamspeaker Tradition assumes its longtime "spirit title" as the group's official honorific.

>The Chakravanti: Striking the entire notion of death from their name, this revitalized Tradition returns to its Sanskrit roots.

This is a spineless cop-out. Brucato is an author with the limitless godlike power of authors. If he wanted to use less, as Onyx forums would call them, patronizing western names for the Traditions, he could have simply ret-conned it all out and said: "the Akashayana were always named the Akashayana". This, claiming that the name chosen by White Wolf in 1993, was somehow in-universe racism, places the blame for real-world racism at the feet of a fictional group, effectively washing White Wolf's hands of the entire matter.

There wasn't even a sidebar going: "Well back in 1993 we were kind of ignorant and did some stupid and ignorant things, so a lot of the original Tradition names reflect our Eurocentricism -- we've chosen to change them". But, nah, just blame it all on a bunch of fictional dudes.

>>53602130
M20 was a mistake. Letting Brucato, the Lucas of RPGs have free reign was an even bigger mistake.

>>53601804

Actually, mages who would be a better fit for a different order are passed along. Because it's better to give them up than to create an enemy who knows your secrets.

>>53602192
The only good thing to come of it were the Technocracy chapters.

Tell me how oMage is not a great ol' game of Mother May I?

Exactly how to determine the number of successes necessary to accomplish something with magick is somewhat difficult, since it uses a table of examples. I've never really found examples and descriptions to be good guidelines for determining other things; 5-10 successes are necessary to create simple life-forms -- what is a "simple" life-form, and what distinguishes it from a complex life-form? Is there a standard for this? Do I have to count base-pairs in their genome? Distinct organs? How often they're used to "disprove" evolution on creationist talkshows? -- blowing up buildings, summoning Otherworldly creatures, having absolute control of a mob of people... but what can I do with Time magick at 5-10 successes? Entropy? Prime? For that matter, how big is the mob in question? It's somewhere between 2 and 200 people, but no further guidance is given.

>>53602349
The problem with using inexact language to describe in-game effects is that it easily creates a situation where two people have different opinions on what something means. To Alice, "a mob" is about 12 people. To Bob, it's about 70. So when Bob reads in the rules that he can command 70-ish people, he comes across a situation where he thinks "right now, I'm going to use my magick to command as many as possible in this group of 100 people". Then Bob's ST Alice sees Bob roll 10 successes and says "you now command 12 of them". And this is a shitty situation to place Alice and Bob in, because Bob feels disappointed and Alice can't really go back on it. Well, she could, but Alice knew that Bob could mind-control 12 people and made the group number 100; if she knew Bob could mind-control 70, she might have made the group number 550 people. Besides, having to do this negotiation over every single power that's ambiguously described takes a lot of time.

Yes, Alice, Bob, and their friends could all sit down ahead of time and work out exactly how many people 10 successes can mind-control, but a) that's what the 700-page book on playing MTAs is for, and b) the book makes no indication that they should do this.

>>53601668
>Why not have a... representational government composed of the members standing to fairly represent the interests of all represented members, to be overseen by a single elected official?

Even in a democracy, monkeys and baboons don't get to vote. I will not accept any undead vermin or poodle voting on my rights.

-Any mage ever

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>>53602349
Later editions and supplement materials give you more examples and flesh out the system, but it is still very freeform even on the best of days.

When I started running Mage I basically had to staple together and entire system from scratch to make it work, and alter a lot of things in the rules and the fluff to make it do what I wanted.

The upside to its being so freeform though is once you've codified the number of successes it takes to do something, and what each Sphere actually covers, its a very very versatile system. My PCs have given legitimate thought to building their own planet [albeit, King Kai sized], and I don't think there's any other system I've ran where that was an option.

I've experimented before with the idea of making oMage have more defined lines for how Sphere Ranks work, sort of like 2e Awakening Practices, but I've never gotten it working 'quite' as well as it does now just using eyeballing and precedent.

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Family: Namtaru
Hunger: Prey
Life: Shy + Scholar
Legend: Unexpected

Mental Attributes: Intelligence 5, Wits 3, Resolve 5
Physical Attributes: Strength 3, Dexterity 5, Stamina 4
Social Attributes: Presence 6, Manipulation 4, Composure 3

Mental Skills: Academics (Holidays, Literature) 4, Computer 1, Crafts 2, Investigation 3, Medicine 2, Occult (Beasts) 4, Politics 2, Science 3
Physical Skills: Athletics 4, Brawl 2, Drive 1, Firearms 0, Larceny 2, Stealth 5, Survival 2, Weaponry 0
Social Skills: Animal Ken (Canines) 2, Empathy (Fear) 3, Expression (Oratory, Singing) 4, Intimidation (Shock) 5, Persuasion 3, Socialize (High Class) 4, Streetwise 1, Subterfuge 2

Merits: Area Of Expertise (Fear), Encyclopedic Knowledge (Academics, Occult), Eye For The Strange, Indomitable (Advanced), Interdisciplinary Specialty (Fear), Library (Academics 2, Occult 2), Professional Training 5 (Socialite: Expression, Socialize, Academics), Double Jointed (Advanced), Iron Stamina 2, Parkour 4, Allies (Several), Contacts (Several), Fame 1, Fixer, Inspiring, Iron Will, Resources 4, Retainer (Zero 3), Status (High Class 4), Striking Looks 2, True Friend (Sally), Iron Skin 2 (Advanced 2), Hunger Management 3, Dark Walker 3 (Advanced), Find A Vein (Glamour 5, Essence 5), Wandering Soul 4

Willpower: 8
Defense: 7
Initiative: 8
Speed: 13
Health: 18
Lair: 9

Atavisms: Alien Allure, Dragonfire, From The Shadows, Infestation (Shadowy Bats), Looming Presence, Needs Must, Relentless Hunter, Shadowed Soul, Siren’s Treacherous Song, Unbreakable

Nightmares: Behold My True Form, Run Away, You Are Not Alone, Fear Is Contagious

Horror Traits: Power 12, Finesse 12, Resistance 10, Size 14, Health 19, Defense 8, Initiative 11, Speed 29

Lair Traits: Crosswinds, Echoing, Fog, Poor Light, Sealed Exits, Thunderous, Mirages, Wondrous

>>53602240
Which he didn't even write, which makes sense given hes so completely computer illiterate he couldn't figure out how to post on reddit.

>>53602423
Everything you said is true. People love this game for their Kung Fu wizard fix. This game is literally magic. It can afford to play fast and loose with the rules. People play it to have fun.

We argue about what we care about.

Believability Difficulty M20:
>No fucking way! 3
>Hard to swallow 4
>Implausible 5
>Possible 6
>Probable 7
>Likely 8
>Too damned likely! 9

In addition to the usual problems I have with holistic descriptions like this, "probable" and "likely" mean the exact same thing . They're synonyms. Probable is "likely to occur or prove true", while Likely is "probably or apparently destined". Unless you use the definition that has "likely" as "very probable" but I feel the fact that these definitions are not consistent only underlines my point. This table is useless and something inside me dies a little every time I see it.

Similar problems plague the table for determining how powerful magickal illusions are; at three successes you can affect three senses. At four successes, you can affect several senses. At five successes, you can affect multiple senses. At six, the illusion gives "full sensations". Now, tell me, how many senses are included in "several", and is it a different number from the ones in "multiple"? I can guess that it's supposed to be more than two, implicitly (but it would be nice if they used words that just mean "more than one"...), but it's no help to ST or player. This goes back to my example with Alice and Bob; Bob thinks that his 4-success illusion affects about 5 senses; sight, hearing, touch, smell, and balance, while forgoing the less useful ones like taste, nociception, thermoception, and propriception. Alice meanwhile thinks that "full sensations" is supposed to mean the five traditional senses (sight, hearing, touch, taste, smell), and says that 5 senses is way too much for a mere 4 successes. All of this could have been avoided if old-school White Wolf authors didn't have a crippling phobia of hard numbers.

>>53602574
I threw out most of the suggestions and just set my own measure for successes, taking into account ONLY the modifiers for damage/healing, number of targets [though I doubled it] and so forth.

Most everything the rules say about successes needed for an effect I just outright ignored and wrote my own rules for.

I love the Sphere System, but it is horrifically explained and the rules for different effects make no sense.

>>53602563
>The best parts of the book were the parts which were unspoiled by his hands.
Exactly.

>>53599527
Have you even read M20? M20 had turned out that it wasn't a book for people to get into oMage, it was a book for Mage fans.

>"We have a game-line that is weird and confusing and has bad rules so we're going to release a cleaned-up definitive edition that makes the game playable... but if you're new to Mage, you can't use it. You have to buy these other, older, shittier books first."

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>>53602668
M20 was the Cheerleader Effect in book form. I made the mistake of buying it, flipped through it a couple times because I wasn't actively playing, then I started seeing the /tg/ and went back to it. Pic related when I read it end to end.

>>53602666
There is an, honest to god, reason for why this is shared commonality with virtually everyone. The writing for a lot of these book are afflicted with Early White Wolf 200-Page Supplement For Every Gameline Out Each Month Syndrome. There's tons of unnecessary stuff and spoken cruft that could be cut to make these things a lot snappier. Brucato's writing still suffers from this even after all these years.

>>53602743
Cut out all the unnecessary sidebars, rants, off-hand comments, and excessively flowery language, and the books would be almost half their current length. Half.

>They have writers that can write.
>Geting payed per word.
>Need to pad out the word count;
>Need to reach that word count.
>Game testing? Playing on company time?? Payed to play??! Hell Nop.
>Noticeable quality decline is noticeable.
If they can keep delivering dat dank lore and suppliment the habbit, then it'z all gud.

>>53602801
Now anon that sounds dangerously close to making a book that isn't shit. How would the players know that pizza is evil? or that playing a nephandi will make you literal hitler? Where will the incest fiction go?

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>>53602801
Number one thing I hate, number one thing, is when I read a supplement, and it introduces a new skill for something already covered by a core skill.

Like "Vampire Knowledge" or some shit. Its like, so what, no everyone who had Occult can't do this without it?

I was reading M20, and I saw things like "Hypertech", "Dreaming", "Jetpacks", and.

Fuck that.

>>53602940
Hypertech and Jetpacks where in a thing in Revised too

>>53603013
I know, but I still dislike them. Any action a character can do should be covered directly by the core skills listed on the character sheet. If someone has Technology 5, he can at least a get bead on what a given Technocratic Device is supposed to do. If you have Coorespondance or Forces and you're an Etherite, you know how to fly a jetpack.

There doesn't need to be a Flying Carpet Ability. If you're Taftani, Hermetic, etc I will assume you can pilot it with Drive.

The magic system in Ascension sucks ass still to this day, especially in combat. Magic(k) is either too piss difficult to or crap easy when cheesed.

>wants to cast fireball
>must wait 9663786 turns while doing stupid ritual
>too late. you died.
or
>wants to cast fireball
>hang spell(s) beforehand and hoard them like a bastard
>proceed to beat everything thrown at you

Dumb fucking system. Awakening is better.

>>53603061
That's not how it works. You roll Arete and every success deals 2d10 Aggravated Damage, with +1 damage for using Forces. Sometimes you have to spend 1 Quintessance to do it [I ignore this personally]

Killing someone with force lightning isn't that hard.

>>53602885
VTM teaching people about selfish and traitorous strategies in-game and to play politicking. Often they become turbofaggoting prima donnas who are self-limiting because such people do not understand the finer, more intricate advantageous points of cooperation. More successful players excerpt dictatorial strategies from afar.

>>53602931
M20 literally opens with incest fiction and child abuse. The comic book power-fantasy game often has no place for that. More to the point, many RPGs have instructions for GMs, telling them to be tactful about topics raised in-game, and to be savvy about what their players are comfortable with.

>>53602940
>it introduces a new skill for something already covered by a core skill.
This. I do however understand if a player wants options to go into specialising a character and is looking into that. But there is such a thing as redundancies. Hypertech as a skill, isn't that for a non-Awakened character to be able to use the Technocracy gizmos without it going haywire? (Kinda handy playing a muggle to keep reality-warpers from pulling shinanigans.)

>>53603110
Good luck trying to get a good damage spell off in one turn, buddy.

OK, real talk here. What is genuinely bad about Beast? I'm talking from a game design point of view, not a personal taste one.

The consensus seems to be:

1) A lack of its own plot hooks due to excessive reliance on crossover for telling stories
2) The crossover in most scenarios stretches disbelief. Most other supernaturals would despise Beasts, even if the latter have Thicker Than Water as a inherent power. And the rewards for crossover are mostly for the Beasts. The other supernaturals are helped by the Lairs, Atavisms, Nightmares, Mother's Kiss and Skeleton Key, but that's it.
3) The Beast vs Hero dynamic should be portrayed as this Ragnarok-like fated duel where each character has their side of the story, with neither being necessarily more correct. Instead, they framed it as "Oppressed vs Oppressors", which is not analogous to mythical heroes fighting fantastic monstrosities. The book also goes out of its way to excuse the bad actions of Beasts while it makes Heroes seem like total assholes (it even has a sidebar saying "there are high Integrity Heroes but we're not gonna talk about them because they're not interesting").
4) Apparently the powers of Beasts are broken? Nobody has really explained this to me in detail. They seem thematically fitting, but mostly weak until higher Lair.

Any other major problems? Any suggestions for solutions?

>>53603192
>Apparently the powers of Beasts are broken? Nobody has really explained this to me in detail. They seem thematically fitting, but mostly weak until higher Lair.

Read the FATAL and Friends review; it goes into detail on the mechanical failings of the system.

>>53603192
One of the major issues is that it was only half re-written and contradicts it self on how beasts become beasts several times. Same with Heroes, who in addition are so mechanically pathetic they could never be a threat to anything.

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>>53603134
Okay.

"I spend 3 Quintessance lowering the DC of the Effect to 3 from 6. I then spend one WP."

*rolls*

"I have Arete 3 and scored 3 successes. Counting my WP that means I roll 8d10 Aggravated Damage."

*rolls*

"Minerva bani Shaea chants an invocation to the angel Raziel, causing a sheet of flames to consume the attacking Brujah. He takes 5 aggravated damage and is now Mauled."

That was so fucking hard. And that's not even the most powerful way I could do that, its just the most intuitive brute force method.

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>Believe that magic stems entirely from belief, and that spells can be worked by any means as long as you believe in them.
>Will yourself into believing in a form of magic, and then doing that magic; because you believe in it, ergo it works.
>This allows (you) to accomplish more by drawing from multiple magical practices.
Magic as taught by /x/.

>>53603192
>Apparently the powers of Beasts are broken?

They're not broken as in overpowered. More so a big fucking annoyance.

>>53603261
9d10* forgot the bonus from its being Forces.

>>53603266
That's already how it works. The different Traditions can take in different philosophies from other sects.

A Taoist sorcerer isn't limited to his eastern ideals. He could very well incorporate the rigidly refined teachings/techniques of the Hermetics into his personalized practice.

>>53603238
>One of the major issues is that it was only half re-written and contradicts it self on how beasts become beasts several times. Same with Heroes.

Agreed.

> Who in addition are so mechanically pathetic they could never be a threat to anything.

Partially agreed. There is some homebrew material that makes them more robust, which is useful. But at the of the day. they are supposed to fight dirty and take advantage of Anathemas.

>>53603379
I always thought the mechanical weakness of Heroes was actually part of the SJW triumphalist theme running in the material; that ultimately MRAs--er, Heroes are only really a threat if you allow them to be.

>>53603336
The Order of Hermes already defined magick for the other Traditions as a whole.

They defined the Spheres post-Dark Eras.

>>53603447

It is accurate inasmuch as beasts are the cause of heroes.

>>53603379

>Partially agreed. There is some homebrew material that makes them more robust, which is useful. But at the of the day. they are supposed to fight dirty and take advantage of Anathemas.

The issue there is that man, it's rather hard to actually USE them. As you need to find a beast who's not too hungry, not too full to put one on in the first place. Then you need to succeed on the roll...it's a lot of hoops when unless you have a particular special ability you'll need to do it right up in their face.

>>53603811
I house rule that Heroes can place Anathemas on Beasts regardless of the current Satiety level, and it's always the most intense version regardless of whether their Satiety drops or not. It only goes away with time or if you kill the Hero.

If each splat represented a nation, what would they be?

>>53603478
>They defined the Spheres post-Dark Ages.
In addition, someone at some point introduced Data as a Technocratic Sphere. I think it was part of the idea that the Spheres weren't set in stone, and the Technocracy, thinking about things in different ways from the Traditions, might have different Spheres altogether, because it's all belief man!

>>53604010
A favorite house-rule of mine is to incorporate Pillars alongside the Spheres, for this very reason.

>>53604044
>>53604010
I treat the Spheres as purely OOC things, since I think putting them IC takes away too much from Paradigm.

Only the Hermetics use the Sphere classification system IC, and that's purely as a universal descriptor for magical praxis.

The average Akashic in my game thinks of themselves as using chi and rhddi, not Life and Mind.

>>53604010
>Data as a Technocratic Sphere; because it's all belief man!
Physics limits information processing, and hence the possible forms of intelligent beings and their civilizations. All their nogins back at HQ working on the limitations concerning the density, speed, size, energy dissipation and communication, sketching the constraints on information processing became a pressing enough issue to go on to treat it as though it were a sphere of its very own.

>>53604044
>A favorite house-rule of mine is to incorporate Pillars alongside the Spheres, for this very reason.
This.

>>53604092
>I treat the Spheres as purely OOC things, since I think putting them IC takes away too much from Paradigm.
And also this.

>>53604143
>>53604092

Aint nobody got time fo dat

>>53598630

Why did you choose Cairo? Was it integral to the story you found online?

Question: I want to write a Horror for the CoD with the name of Funkolossus. Anybody interested? What do you it would be like?

>>53603905
Mages are Americans. They're too privileged not to be.

>>53604260
>Mages are Americans.

Magic, Fuck Yeah!

>>53598308
>Firebombing some vampires is acceptable if they decided to attack you out of the blue but not so much if they're trying to get you to pay your overdue bat tab.

One does not ever need to justify incinerating undead parasites. Their mere existence is reason enough. Vampires bring nothing but misery and death. No matter the circumstance, killing such vermin is a valuable public service.

-Jophiel, Obrimos Master of the Adamantine Arrow

>>53598164
Why are spirits immune to incognito presence exactly?

>>53604401
They shouldn't be. It might be a house rule or something.

>>53604401
They're not.
Anything with a Mind is affected.
That includes Spirits, Ghosts, Goetia, Angels, all supernaturals, animals, cryptids, and possibly some advanced A.I.

The moderately irritating thing, is that for example, even if someone has orders to shoot EVERYONE who comes down a corridor, unless he in that moment he sees the individual spends Willpower to boost his Withstand in excess of Potency, he will immediately ignore them.

>>53604143
>Spheres don't exist.
Okay. But what about this Data thing you guys are cooking up?
>Ah, see. It's like an admixture of Mind and Correspondence. The subtle substance interacts with other Patterns through Correspondence and Time, as all things do, but its subtle weave is of a higher pattern, but it is not of Mind.
But you just said that Spheres don't exist.
>Work with me here. Do some mental gymnastics. Some doublethink. We are the music makers... and we are the dreamers of dreams.
2+2=5. Got it.
>Exclusion says that it has unique borders and a particular geometrical grain distinguishing it.
Are you going with Kabbalah or some sorta New Age woo for this?
>I need you to believe this can work. I want you to set all the access points in the building to the same Service Set ID to create an extended service set. There is absolutely no reason to believe that magic cannot accomplish this. I mean, computers practically run on magic anyway, it's not like anyone really understands how they actually work.
I think you're confusing computer illiteracy with magic.
>That's down to a matter of rhetoric.
[And then Anon became enlightened.]

I have house-ruled that any act that doesn't involve misusing magic doesn't affect Wisdom. This is because a Mage is the master of their own soul in a way sleepers simply aren't.

This hasn't had that dramatic an effect on the frequency of Wisdom checks.

>>53604700
Do they still have to perform Integrity checks? I can't imagine wanton indiscriminate mass-killings would leave a human mind unscathed. ;^)

>>53604700
You mean your players haven't taken that as an opportunity to solve problems by shooting people in the face?

I am genuinely impressed.

>>53604909
...is that all you can conceive? If you really want foul deeds in-game to influence your daily life, that's your call, but I don't recommend it. Doing so will literally turn you into a manipulative, evil psychopath. And I thought you could be trusted to follow all those warnings in the front of RPG manuals, telling you not to turn to Satanism!

>>53604882

They are masters of their own souls, so no.

>>53604909

They usually hover around the "inflict horrific yet non-lethal physical or mental trauma" level. And considering most of those problems are other mages, shooting them in the face is rarely effective.

>>53604909
You know the only times I've seen Mages get hilariously cockstomped have been when they opt for the "Let's start solving our problems by making this campaign into Mage of Duty: Modern Spellfare" approach.

What makes changing breeds so bad?

>>53604909
I am impressed. Souls, being the ephemeral appendix that they are happen to also be the moral compass and sin barometers, more or less. Imagine a player without a leash!

>>53605076
>They usually hover around the "inflict horrific yet non-lethal physical or mental trauma" level.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDgmFe7rKwg

>>53605139
Brucatto wrote it.

>>53605139
It has mental derangements about smearing yourself with shit, screaming at pedestrians, and fucking animals.

>>53605050
Get out of here, Brucato

>>53605139
http://destroythis.blogspot.com.au/search?updated-max=2014-07-31T18:46:00-07:00&max-results=7&start=7&by-date=false&m=1 There ya go.

>>53605205
>http://destroythis.blogspot.com.au/search?updated-max=2014-07-31T18:46:00-07:00&max-results=7&start=7&by-date=false&m=1

expected a furry site. Disappointed.

>>53605076
>They usually hover around the "inflict horrific yet non-lethal physical or mental trauma" level. And considering most of those problems are other mages, shooting them in the face is rarely effective.
So the Bruce Wayne school of ethics?

>>53605305
Just reviewing Changing Breeds makes it plenty furry.

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>>53605418
>So the Bruce Wayne school of ethics?

>Kill The Batman

>>53605577
John Reese, Mum-Ra, Jacked Jawa, and midlife crisis Santa Clause.

>>53597257
Can vampires suffer wyrm mutations? Can they make pacts with Umbrood?

>>53605418
I can totally see this.
Euthanatoi getting brainwiped by Technocrats who were forced to go through the little death and brainwiped themselves, creating an endless cycle of stupidity.

Get of Fenris and Black Furies (mind) rape each other all the time.

hopefully mindrape.

>>53606163
Think about it, you have all these metis neckbeards who never get laid arguing with all these shrill feminists who can't ever get laid, its 4chan in a nutshell.

Then you add in all the Children of Gaia whose metis (or even homid) kids turn out to be gay and all their daddy issues from when daddy "was away" fighting the big bad gubment, meanwhile the technocracy orders an fbi raid of your safehouse cause you just HAD to have that Maxim 32 nazi machinegun and they arrange for prisoner transfer to a secure detentional facility cause of the program and you escape but your covered in blood and peanut butter and you come home screaming and your daughter needs help with her homework and AGGGHHHHH!!!

>>53606213
And so in short your honor, thats why i killed my wife and am specifically requesting the death penalty, so that I be killed according to my families tradition and die with honor and dignity.

(Choiroister) No Sah! No sah, i don't like it! You will be condemned to the HOUUUUNDs of HEEEEELL prison system, in depths of Arizona, out of site of federal law and 'dem New Yuk Judges! I DEMAND that you pay your penance boy, cause the beast o hell got hold o ya! You going to fry, boi!

(Judge Picks up robe, flashes jury, starts dancing like a claimjumper)

Progentitor twin prosecution and defense attorneys turn to each other at once, nod, and say, "Mistrial," in unison.

>>53606163
Could you see a euthanitos playing out an Arthur Dent seen with a Technocrat? Like his own inner angst forces his avatar to direct negative energy to him while he sleeps, and the technocrat just keeps getting cut off, jipped at check-out, people pick fights for no reason..

>>53606307
And in turn, the technocrats incredible tedium, boredom and anxiety make the euthanatos day orderly and mundane, which he hates.

>>53605899
sounds like a hacker collective.

>>53605899
>Santa Claus has mid-life crisis
>Decides to be a super-villian
>Gets hot assistant who wears skimpy outfits
>Doesn't bang her
>Takes shit down someones chimney
>Immediately feels embarrassed about it
>Too late, shits on instagram

You know how Saitama from One Punch Man suffers from boredom because he can't experience conflict?
https://youtu.be/EQB6ctBXNzs

I was thinking of creating an Incarnate Beast who is in a similar situation to Saitama, but in order to prevent their Myth from being Destabilized, they seek to teach people not to seek victory and power for their own sake. Instead, they act as this distant martial arts master of sorts who no one can beat but is said to be very wise, so people seek them out for all sorts of advice. They get to Feed their Horror by demonstrating their immense fighting skill and cunning, and teach the Lesson of "embrace your conflicts for they will make you stronger".

How does that sound?

>>53604662
The optional Technocratic Sphere of Data functions much like Correspondence does, with a couple of exceptions: One being that you cannot use the Data Sphere without a suitable tech-based focus -- that is, a paradigm, practice, and the instruments to direct them in technological ways. -- and that its influence is confined to telecommunication technologies and infrastructure.

>>53606369
I swear, I just heard the kid say,
"Santa Claus ain't going out like 'dat!
Santa Claus ain't no punk!
Santa Claus been round for 200 years!"

"and saw that they were talking shit to my little Dilon, who didn't get jack last christmas cause of the government, and was about to be beat to shreds, knowing his mom couldn't handle that hospital bill, and I took out the rifle out of the box and shot one of those little punks."

I heard people say, "Holy shit, whos that up on the sliegh!" and I just sped out of there.

>>53606449
every message needs a medium. easier than beaming microwaves into somebodies dreams to sell sneakers.

>>53606449
I swear to god, if I were a vampire, I would just go to paris hilton with a pair of 10 dollar hooker shoes and convince her that they were worth 20,000 dollars with my Presence. (Or dominate)

>>53606476
Paris Hilton?!
The Drug Lord?

(Sorry, I'm beaming in on a different frequency)
Hello? Is this 1982? I want to see that weird photo effect when Jhon Hinkly shot Reagon! What kind of packettes are you using? Is the WinShell or DosLinux?

>>53606411
It's a decent idea hindered with the baggage of beast. Best of luck you magnificent creature.

>>53606411
>They Feed their Horror by beating the shit out of people
>And justify it as teaching them to fight better and embrace their inner conflicts

Sounds like a Beast, alright

>>53606449
So are you going to lead a lecture on how to operate with out a focus/foci/vernacular equivalent?

>>53606411
So what, the guy is basically projecting his own insecurities into his mythic seeming? So thoughts like "I suck so hard, I'm such a fag, I would so get my ass kicked if I messed with that guy" would only serve to make their icon/avatar stronger?

So the weaker little kids get and the more they get picked on, the more charles bronson or chuck norris starts telling them to punch shit, and when they finally do they take their head off?

Getting knocked out in one hit isn't just brain damage, its embarrassing. You wake up and you have no idea what happened, one minute your were standing the next you were out like a light.

Its amazing when you see people do that, their whole body just snaps like a whip. My avatar used to be able to do that all the time.

>>53606574
Thing was, it was always when you were backed into a corner, right, always when you didn't have a choice. If they let you walk away, you walk away. If you kept doing that in real life, people would think you were a punk.

>>53606476
Do you think you would have been the first vamp to have come up with that sparkling idea?

You would be stuck as a free-rider on the coattails of humanity, but also be caught in a symmetric and asymmetric conflict against other predators independently choosing whether to cooperate or dispose of you as competition over the herd of humanity to exploit.

>>53606513
I was heading in the opposite direction, pointing out that an electric toothbrush is magic.

>>53606513
Or perhaps simply be more versatile in the foci you use. For some hackers, their cell phone is their life. Maybe teach them how do a couple things without it?

>>53606599
I only need to do it once or twice, enough to buy some property an establish a haven. Maybe buy a cool van, get it custom painted, then we'll be all rockin' out!

>>53606611
Or if the court orders them to use a bricked dumb phone after another of their manic episodes.

Hows the stock, Tony?

>>53606511
He wouldn't beat them to a pulp. He would be measured. Think Mister Miyagi or Master Shifu.
>>53606554
He's not projecting, just putting his Myth to good use. I'm not sure what you mean with the rest of your post.

You have no idea how stressful playing the stockmarket is. Its like legalized compulsive gambling. I hear these ventrue, they get these 10 year warranty BMW's, they stick to mutual funds, I swear, this one guy had never even heard of a credit union!

They got all their stocks and bonds in these old-timy companies like Boeing, Coca-Cola, I even saw one for Standard Oil fer chrissakes! They've been out of business for years, guy says, says to me he says: "They still pay me dividins" I'm telling you, these old money cocksuckers got some real special perks for being an American aristocrat, I'll tell you what."

>>53606649
Yeah, but what if the kid starts to think hes a ninja or some shit? what if goes around trying to punch guys who carry knives?

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>>53606634
You'd do better as fledgling vamp than some random magic-user relying on mistranslated unannotated esoteric texts.

Can you imagine a more sad affair than growing up to be the guy who sells ninja stuff at swapmeets and county fairs?

>>53606706
What am I, a Hebrew Nationalist? I look like a Hebrew hotdog to you? You think I got one of those pug faces with the huge nose that makes me look jewish? You gotta lotta nerve pal!

>>53606746
I ain't even watch fiddler on the roof, kid! Only reason I knows I'm jewish is cause o my mudder. My mudder, she told me, "Don't you ever forget that your jewish!" I was like, "Ma, who could forget were jewish? You serve falafal every night! Our fridge is filled, FILLED, with humos.

>>53606691
The Beast would be wise enough to ask what your conflicts are and what you plan on doing about them. He would not tell a mortal to go fight a bunch a armed criminals, but he would help the mortal find a way to move into a better neighborhood or convince the police to better protect his neighborhood. Stuff like that. Not everything needs to be about punching.

>>53606770
You telling me I gotta pretend, PRETEND, to not be jewish, because some jew prick bastard got it up in his head to form Israel? I'm part Italian, I'm not jewish. Buuulllshiiit, if I'm not jewish then what am I smart guy? Hey? Cause I ain't Greek, I ain't Armenian, I'm jewish!

Look, jewish is a race an ethnicity, a religion, and a culture, and all three of them are completely seperate. I mean, they should be, but people try to make it out like there not.

>>53606773
Your sending a babe into the woods. You have no idea how corrupt the world can be.

>>53606706
Wait a second how'd you do anything with magic then? Unless you're batman nobody is going to have the corpus of knowledge to be worth anything in a fight/investigation/political maneuvering.

>>53606799
Hey, how you doing, Syndicate Sr. Media Manager Sydney, New York. Anyway, what I'm saying is, even if you are jewish, you can't TALK about being jewish on the air! There are all these bi-laws against it.

I'm sick of it, sick of all these censorship laws, I've had it up to here with these guys! There is some real wierd, real creepy shit in New York I want to talk about, I gotta warn people, don't come here, don't go near Manhattan, the place is haunted, it'll suck you in!

>>53606709
>Can you imagine a more sad affair than
Yes. That would be the 14 year olds that buy the 'ninja stuff', calling it 'sweet swag', and then injuring themselves while filming it, uploading that trash, congesting YouTube with their garbage.

>>53606706
>mistranslated unannotated esoteric texts.
Mr Deeeeds, I presume. Allow me to introduce myself, Winston Charles the Third, Priiivate Investigator. I see here we have the alleged will? I presume you also have a copy at home? I will have to confiscate it for my investigation, I HOPE (hiss) that won't be a problem...

>>53606807
Who said anything about teaching little children? And I'm well aware of corrupt the world is. This is just a game, man. And if anyone has a problem with the Lessons he has passed onto his students, he shows up to protect them.

>>53606842
You have no idea whats its like living out in the sticks. You take away their swag they will buy bow and arrows. You take away their bows and arrows it'll be a slingshot. You take away their slingshot, it'll be a stick.

Don't mess with big toy companies, they got it rough as it is, what with the computer industry and all.

>>53606873
look, does it contain toxic chemicals? Is it small enough to swallowed? Is it age approriate? Then there is nothing we can do! Thank You, goodbye!

(ring ring) Hello, this is Pentex, how may I help you?

>>53606867
And what if ACTUAL ninjas show up?

>>53606917
then he gets be the butt of all their "white hombre" jokes.

>>53606925
Dear Gaijin Dog. Please vacate our Temple immediately. We do not enjoy your presence. You are scaring all the birds and have already scratched the sacred buhdah statue in the garden.

PS For the last time, we do not teach Kung-Fu here!

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>>53606826
You'd be a lot more limited with what you can do with magic. Learning specific rituals to banish spirits, exorcise ghosts, and seal them up in enchanted objects, etc., because that's what you had learnt was possible with magic.

>>53597257
You know what reality is?
Reality is like watching the worse movie ever made, by anyone. Its not actively trying to harm you, its just terrible.

Its boring, its shoddy, Its over 8 million hours long..

>>53606873
Marksmanship is good for kids though.

>>53606947
if your binding spirits you might already have a problem. For that sort of thing you have to be given sort of a divine mandate.

>>53606971
all i'm saying, is if its anything short of a firearm or a flamethrower, just let the kids play with it, wouldja? Hell, down here, 4th July, you want a flamethower? my uncle Eddie got you covered!

>>53606917
He's a freaking Incarnate Beast focused on combat abilities. The ninjas don't stand a chance.

>>53606947
I mean, nothing is preventing you from binding spirits if you don't have THE WORD, but it'll come back to bite you in the ass, and it will all be coincidence. You'll feel bad about sickin' a spirit on somebody eventually, and sooner or later you are going to figure out how to call it off, which if you weren't already prepared for, can be a bit of a pickle

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>>53606706
>>53606826
>>53606947
This is completely pants on head retarded and should be ignored by everyone who ever plays Mage. Not because its a power-cap, but because it makes no fucking sense and shoehorns every Mage into being a fucking Hermetic.

If a PC uses magic by getting drugged up and dancing naked under the moon, then you can not, shall not, and will not convince me he has to know a technical field of knowledge to do a particular thing. His magic doesn't require technical knowledge, and moreover having "technical knowledge" doesn't even make fucking sense when that's not real knowledge by my paradigm, its just technocratic bullshit that's joined the Consensus.

I do not need to know the false theory of the periodic table to create "anti-matter" I just have to use my knowledge of the Platonic Forms to generate a substance with equivalent properties within the Hermetic Paradigm, or even just make outright "anti-matter" out of a drug-fueled blitz because the Man isn't the only one allowed to have high end esoteric physical compounds!

Get this "Skill check" shit out of my face.

>>53607012
Poor ninja's.
Little billy is going to get his first erection while fighting ninjas.

>>53607036
>or even just make outright "anti-matter" out of a drug-fueled blitz because the Man isn't the only one allowed to have high end esoteric physical compounds!
>summons umbrood by accident
Shit dog, my bad!

>>53606947
What's the point of magic if I have to already know how to do something the mundane way? If I could already do it I wouldn't need to cast a spell now would I?

>>53607062
What iiis thiis shiit, maan...
That was NOT Peyote..

>>53607062
I unironically agree with you! Paradox is a bitch, but the point is I don't need the imaginary claptrap of the Technocracy in order to get high as FUCK and summon nuclear Armageddon.

Makes no fucking sense.

>>53607065
Exactly.
I can never prove its not coincidence, but I can never prove its not, either.
t. the jilted technocrat

>>53606706
Is this from M20? I'm starting to understand the Bruccato hate.

>>53607077
Convince your girl to sleep with Blanca Nino whos good wit' comuters. Calls dominos, has it delivered to nuclear silo. Getting blitzed, watching sun set, big ball o dere nuclea fyre.

Irie

What are various splats ways to create disposable mooks in cofd?
Vamps can churn out larvae by the truckload thou keeping tabs on all of them can be difficult.
Mages can slap things together with Prime and Spirit. I guess you can make various things with matter to fight for you. Something else?
Demon can make Hellhounds out of various animals
What about the rest?

>>53607116
To what end?

>>53607116
For a fight with a mage to be exciting, you have to let the mage control the setting. A iteration x technocrat will fight you in a welding factory or an assembly plant. A high level NWO will fight you in a government office or labyrinthine buerocracy, a Syndicate Agent in a high powered corporate office complex with security agents, or the stock paper trading floor on wall street where the eldar vampires still do thier business.

>>53607135
Why do you create disposable mooks? For hero to look good fighting them! Nah I'm going to compile a bestiary so I have everything in one place

>>53607116
Werewolves have kinfolk.
They can make your life hard.

>>53607149
Not what I asked for but still this are some cool ideas

>stock paper trading floor on wall street where the eldar vampires still do thier business.
Vamp or whoever walking around his penthouse blasting his favourite classical piece at full volume not noticing two fighting mages teleporting around, summoning monsters and using kung fu wizardy?

VA's don't have that problem, either your broke, in which case mooks are the least of your problems, or you're mega-rich, and you got a thousand kids lining up to kiss your ass, plus the money to hire security if you need it.

Hermetics have access to scholastically inclined acolytes, not much good in a fight but literary muderesses and love triangle killings are a thing with academics.

A lot of garou can find muscle hanging around the docks or the plant, call in favors or spread some of their cash.

Lot of garou know biker gangs, lot of garou know ex-cons, activists, dead heads, concert roadies. The sort of low lifes you'd expect.

>>53607116
Changelings can create minions through the Communion With The Elements Contracts in 1ED. So can Sin-Eaters with Elemental Marionette.

>>53607248
Yeah I guess I will just throw in category for various hired goons

>>53607226
Lol, I'm guessing a lot of Mages have to go the supervillian route and recruit followers who are a little unstable. Sons of Ether recruiting comic book fanatics and handing them super weapons to keep Tower records from being demolished so he doesn't lose his shop in the basement.

>>53606981
>if your binding spirits you might already have a problem. For that sort of thing you have to be given sort of a divine mandate.
A powerful mage can also use Spirit 4 or 5. Spirit 4 can draw a spirit into a body or object.

>An especially skilful, cruel or courageous mage can get spirits to enter objects, creatures, or even his own body. A mage with Spirit 4 may "invite" them to take up residence in a physical body whether they want to or not. In such cases, the mage "influences" his targets by getting something else to possess them, and also influences the spirit to do things on his behalf. Although this sort of thing is morally questionable, many mystic practices feature spirit-possession techniques among their darker secrets.

>>53607248
Choiresters never had much a problem finding followers either. But their followers tend to reflect their beliefs and teachings, either closeted, capable, secretive, and batshit crazy or ordinary, bland, average people who come in massive numbers.

>>53607286
What i'm saying is that if you try to control a spirit, is will only feed your need to control, if you set it free and let it do what it wants to do, you will find release from your torment.

(smokes iho stick)
Irie

Verbena create those polyamory and fertility cults. They share a lot with our Black Furies. Bitches be crazy.

>>53607036
>I do not need to know the false theory of the periodic table to create "anti-matter" I just have to use my knowledge of the Platonic Forms to generate a substance with equivalent properties within the Hermetic Paradigm, or even just make outright "anti-matter" out of a drug-fueled blitz because the Man isn't the only one allowed to have high end esoteric physical compounds!
>I don't need the imaginary claptrap of the Technocracy in order to get high as FUCK and summon nuclear Armageddon.
This guy gets it.

>>53607313
This sheet is why I love you guys.

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>>53607206
>Vamp or whoever walking around his penthouse blasting his favourite classical piece at full volume not noticing two fighting mages teleporting around, summoning monsters and using kung fu wizardy?

Oh yeaaah, thats the sizzle.

>>53607036
>uses magic by getting drugged up and dancing naked under the moon.
That fella would be trying to bring about a storm, or shapeshift by bringing about a manic and dissociative state of mind, or contact beings from afar to summon.

I'ma thinking this being some serious weather-witching; falling roofs, flying debris, arcing electricity, and so forth. He is attracting a cyclone.

>>53607411
No, I'm summonin some anti-matter.

I don't know what it is, but I am going to smoke it.

>>53607439
BRILLIANT!

>>53607528
>ST: "You can not smoke ANTIMATTER!"
>Dudebro Ecstatic: "Tell it to Forces 6."

>>53607542
or worse
spirit 6

>>53607567
>then what happened?
>an anthropomorphic crane phased through the ceiling, snatched the pearl of anti-matter into its beak, and flew off into the deep umbra.
>you're stories suck Carl.

>>53607439
>He said before the 21.5 Megaton explosion took off.

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>>53607587
METALLICA!! WHOO!

>>53607580
>>53607587
>>53607610
>>53607567
This is why the Technocracy hates you people.

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>>53602423
>building their own planet (albeit, King Kai sized)

>>53607651
A realm can do without many of those features, but even the simplest would require many masters.

And you know how masters don't get along.

>>53607651
Its strange to think that 3-d modelers have mapped out so much code in 3-d engines. There is probably more 'matrix' than there is 'real world' at this point. I'm just surprised more of them don't use standardized templates.

>>53607651
Still, a worthy task for a grand magus.

>>53607748
And you know how they get when you mention personal shit, like how they should leave their sanctums more often, or how other paradigms can sometimes expand our own..

>>53607651
>He says in a post that specifies its ignoring most of the rules on successes needed for certain tasks

>>53607759
right. they get all defensive. Might be a good way to get them out of the house. Agree to meet at a safe location they can both agree on. That in and of itself can be a challenge.

>>53607707
>All those people would squable over a literal ball of dirt.

>>53607732
>I'm just surprised more of them don't use standardized templates.
Thats what a game engine/using the same 3-d modling software is about, so they're not 'working from scratch'. And how they've developed an extensive repitoire of techniques in their work as their library of 'stock assests'.

>>53607770
And of course you, as the magical equivalent of a grad student, would be doing most of the work. They would be off discussing their grand designs while you are building the eco-habitat.

>>53607774
>Thats what a game engine/using the same 3-d modling software is about, so they're not 'working from scratch'. And how they've developed an extensive repitoire of techniques in their work as their library of 'stock assests'.

and why every tom dick and sally in the computer world is trying to construct their own standard. They are trying to establishing a monopoly.

>>53607774
>Thats what a game engine/using the same 3-d modling software is about, so they're not 'working from scratch'. And how they've developed an extensive repitoire of techniques in their work as their library of 'stock assests'.

I used to think rotes made you lazy. Now I'm regretting not using them more when I was a kid. I'm mostly stuck using other peoples rotes, kind of renting them.

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>>53607765
I wanted to bring up a book that people may not have heard of: A Practical Guide to Sphere Magick for Mage 20th Anniversary Edition. (Remaining consistent with 2nd Edition, except where it isn't.)

>>53607812
you run a script, its not the same thing as creating an app. Its not the same thing as being able to use a complex program, much less build one.

Building GUI's is the one sure fire thing computer gurus are going to have in the future. That and understanding legacy code.

>>53607835
We know aaaall about the fucking book that has all the actual magic rules because they didn't have room for them in M20, since it was crammed with stupid rants, sidebars, and foodshit.

>>53607835
>>53607882
I have that book, still ignore it. To those curious enough to bother getting mad at me, in my setting all you need to build your own "realm" is the means to get to space/Deep Umbra [which is much easier to reach then in the canon] and the time and resources to spam Matter 2/Prime 2 until you have a nice mini-planet going. Or use Coorespondance 3-4/Prime 2 to generate a Whovian space.

Really under my rules the hard part isn't so much making a realm, its making it somewhere the Void Engineers won't be sent to blow it up, and making some kind of reliable transport from it back to Earth.

Am I making it too easy for Adepts to make their own realms? Eeeh, a little, but I was always a fan of embracing the alternate worlds concept in oMage and running with it, even more then the source material did.

>>53607882
>stupid rants
They could have fitted all those magic rules into the actual game book if it weren't for those damn rants of his, with pleanty of space to spare! Remember him going on about Pluto? It's magickal just like the other planets, what do the scientists and their cold measurements know? Nevermind that Pluto is not the first time a planet has been de-classified.

Ceres, Vesta, Juno, and Pallas -- the four biggest asteroids in the asteroid belt -- were considered planets from 1807 or so onwards. They were then declassified in 1845, before the discovery of Neptune. Pluto was only discovered and classified a planet in 1930.

>>53607923
>I have that book, still ignore it.
The books are more what you would call guidelines, than actual rules. But god forbid you try a crossover game unless you stay consistent and have a ST with a sense of fairplay. You will have to employ so much sophistry and rules lawyering otherwise. Oh who am I kidding, this is the game of seeing how much you can get away with!

>I was always a fan of embracing the alternate worlds concept in oMage and running with it, even more then the source material did.
Then you're doing it right, by which I mean, Having Fun.

>>53607974
>In my campaign there is no such thing as Vulgar with No Witnesses.
>If no one sees you, your magic is completely legit.
>In practice this means that Coincidental Magic is barely used by non-Technomancers and a massive wizard fight can be broken up by a normie's dog waking the neighborhood.

"Quick, everyone stop invoking the forces of Will! Ibrahim, hide that genie! Shit shit, everyone play cool!"

>Fuckin, Technocrats hiding their guns.
>Second the coast is clear shit explodes again

>>53601275

What the fuck are you even on about? You actually just described the Technocracy. They are consistently fifty to one hundred years ahead of the rest of the curve and they disburse those innovations into the consensus as needed. The goal of the traditions, concurrently, is universal mass awakening.

>>53601160
space pirate amazon ninja catgirls!

>>53608024
Tell me how a mass-Awakening event won't result in a breakdown of social trust, causing complete societal collapse and the end of civilisation as we know it.

>>53608024
And what the fuck are you even on about? Wizard-hippies will turn the world into a Salvador Dali painting. Also, there are space squids that want to eat the world.

>>53608106
>Breakdown of social trust
One person is roughly equivalent to another right now and will also be after a mass awakening event. Think of it like a true post-scarcity economy. If everyone can fulfill all of their needs and wants on a whim, there's no reason to fight.

>The End of civilization as we know it.
To be replaced by something better and more free. That's kind of the point, retard.

>>53608161
>implying that they're all hippies.
All of the traditions have factions that incorporate modern tech into their practices. Lhakshmists in the Euthanatos, House Thig and later Verditius in the Order of Hermes, etc.

>implying that universal mass awakening will turn everyone into a hippy.

The Hermetics, Sons and the Choristers would like a word with you.

>>53597257
Is anyone else reading the official forums and the rpg.net and laughing their asses off over how all the faggots and trannies who flocked to Prometheans are now flocking to Beast? I still don't know if it was written ironically, in mockery of tumblerina otherkin power fantasies or in fulfillment of them, without the irony, but it really has attracted the saddest, most fragile, broken little toys in the toy bin. We see it here too, of course, but the lack of a safe space at least means our faggots have a thicker skin.

At the very least though it's added a new element of fun for alt-right players of HtV.

>>53608236
>If everyone can fulfill all of their needs and wants on a whim, there's no reason to fight.

What about people whose needs and wants are fundamentally inimical to the safe lives of others?

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>>53608320

>>53608403
They'd... be handled by the community/society/civilization?

Like... how they've always been because people are social animals that naturally collaborate?

>>53608320
Link?

>>53608443
>They'd... be handled by the community/society/civilization?

So then you're saying they'd give people a reason to fight, directly contradicting what you previously said.

>>53602563
Between him and Malcolm Sheppard, White Wolf picks some really fucking gems out of whatever communes they find them in. Sheppard liked to brag at cons about how he used to be on welfare when he wrote his shit.

>>53608443
And that collaboration will be as free as it is in the modern day and age when people can't rape your soul inside out, mind-fuck you into their personal sex slave or trap you within a bubble of compressed space?

A mass-awakening would create such a completely unprecedented amount of power within the reach of the common man that everday society would collapse, and a new social order would have to be formed.

One where people have to make an actual, genuine bond of trust with others.

A lack of resources scarcity isn't such a big thing as you make it out to be.
When the person you meet cresting the hill in front of you might take a liking to your soul or ass, it's not exactly going to be very comforting to know that you can gain all the nutrition you want from soil.

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>>53608236
>If everyone can fulfill all of their needs and wants on a whim, there's no reason to fight.
What of men who think no more about murder than scratching an itch.

>>53608403
Aww, you beat me to the punch!

>>53608552
This! Everyone has their own nuke!

>>53608599
>Every mage can summon their own nuke!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcUZrDX5P7A

>>53608499
I never said that. I said that society would handle things should some aberration like a sociopath pop up. People would go on handling such things as threats to community safety, not as active conflicts.

>>53608552
Oh, you sweet summer child!

You act like the technocracy doesn't engage in these things.

>and a new social order would have to be formed.

It's like you actively hate personal agency, MiB McDefault.

>>53608599
Already covered that here >>53608443 fedora tipper.

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>>53608677
>I never said that

>>53608236
>If everyone can fulfill all of their needs and wants on a whim, there's no reason to fight.

>>53608697
>I never said that. I said that society would handle things should some aberration like a sociopath pop up

Omitting context? Really?

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>>53608706
Dude, there is no other context of fucking relevance. You said that there would no reason to fight and you didn't say a goddamn thing about social aberrations in that post. Then you directly contradicted yourself.

>>53608320

I take it you missed the shitshow that was Changing Breeds.

Awful. Just awful. I am not even talking about the content of the book which took a really interesting folkloric subject and turned it into furrycentric shit, but the fandom. Just come out of the closet, or go to conversion therapy already.

>>53608738
Removing the unihar was WtF 2e's biggest goddamn mistake.

>>53608677
>You act like the technocracy doesn't engage in these things
And the fact that the Technocracy does dark shit somehow makes the fact that every Tom, Dick, and Larry will suddenly gain the ability to employ potentially vast powers against me at any point, at any time, and for any reason, a good thing? Or at least somehow a bad thing?

How good/bad a Mass-Awakening is, is directly proportional to how prepared the world is to immediately institute some basic principles of order and rights to be maintained as the world shifts to a new social dynamic.

Some basic principles of order are required for social cooperation, and a mass Awakening would put those commonly accpted principles in jeopardy.
Certainly, in the modern day someone could try and kill me, and if they put their mind to it, I'd almost certainly have no chance of surviving or ever knowing it was going to happen.
However when people suddenly have magic, it's like everyone's always carrying a full loaded gun, with no system for permits.

Also
>It's like you actively hate personal agency
No, it's like I've actually studied Jurisprudential Theory and know what the fuck I'm talking about.
Personal Agency is lovely. It really is. But too much of it is horrendously destructive for social cohesion and rights.

>>53608738
>the fandom.
I missed this, how bad was it?

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>>53608677
>Investigators would be able to speak to spirits and read minds to enforce the law, no probs.

One in five people suffer from some kind of mental illness or another. 1 in 2000 is afflicted with the more severe conditions. If there were a mass-Awakening event, then you are not only letting loose people who are not entirely synced up with everyday life, you are letting loose people who are able to, in a very real way, make their reality your reality as well.

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>>53608724
Why would I? There will always be such people. They were there in the beginning and there in the end. You're talking about a segment of the population that makes up ~1% of the human race. The rest? Just fucking people, man. No better or no worse than the rest of us. If Humanity is freed from the consensus and it's needs, then there's no need for, say, another Cold War world order. That doesn't mean that there won't be a thin slice of the population that are shitty people. Always have been, always will be.

Look, because you're obviously some fedora-tipper, I'll throw you a bone. If I'm making the logical mistake that you're claiming that I am, you're making the equivalent-opposite mistake. You're saying that agency is too dangerous to be granted. because SOMEONE will use it the wrong way. Freedom implies risk and the certainty that it will be used in ways that you don't approve of or in actively harmful ways. You could, for example, not ignore my argument that humans are perfectly capable of managing our own affairs should such a situation arise.

You actually just gave voice to the single biggest argument as to why the technocrats are the villains of the setting.

>>53608599
>muh nukes
There's a reason as to why historians are starting to call this era of history the long peace.

>>53608843
>There's a reason as to why historians are starting to call this era of history the long peace.
It was a reference to ancaps and the NAP.

>>53608843
>You could, for example, not ignore my argument that humans are perfectly capable of managing our own affairs should such a situation arise.

I'm not ignoring it, I just consider it an exceptionally poor argument considering humans aren't even capable of managing their affairs in reality.

And you're still contradicting yourself. Either this will lead to utopia and perfect peace, or there will always be shitty people to ruin it and bring reason for violence to stain the world. You cannot have it both ways.

>>53608766
>immediately
Assumption. Where is it written in lore that it would happen all at once?

>And the fact that the Technocracy does dark shit somehow makes the fact that every Tom, Dick, and Larry will suddenly gain the ability to employ potentially vast powers against me at any point, at any time, and for any reason, a good thing? Or at least somehow a bad thing?

They already can. Should everyone immediately act upon their darkest impulses, we'd have that breakdown of society already. You can drive a car through a crowd or go on a mass shooting. Yet those are ridiculously rare events. The prospect of another Sandy Hook massacre is terrifying to the mind and nearly too awful to think about but that doesn't change the fact that killings with long arms in general are so rare that the FBI doesn't even keep a separate statistic about which murders are commited with shotguns, hunting rifles or semi-automatics.

>>53608837
1999:1

I like those odds.

>>53608843
>you're obviously some fedora-tipper.
Deeply religious, actually. Please don't presume about the matters of a stranger's personal creeds, upringing, preferences, etc. An inquiry would have sufficed.

>>53608900
>Assumption. Where is it written in lore that it would happen all at once?

It better happen all at once or else you're creating one hell of an unequal power dynamic, which is the very root of atrocity.

>1999:1
>I like those odds.

You're rolling seven billion times, friendo. You won't like them for long.

>>53606947
Poor silly westerner, why can't he just understand the wise mystical negro.

>>53608878
We are doing better than we have ever done in the history of the species. Murder rates are down, war deaths are down, poverty is down, starvation is down and all in the last century.

We're managing our affairs better than we ever have at any other time. Our current gripes pale in comparison to other arguments and problems that we've had in the past.

But you can't see that because you're that kind of fedora tipper that thinks he knows better than everyone else. So much so that this entire time, you've been making my point for me.

>>53608900
Anon, you seem to be arguing from a position that society gracefully, immediately shifts into some kind of wonderful fully actualised, self-defined cooperative social existence. With a fully formed and operational judicial organisation.

Everyone else is pointing out that before that shit happens, before the world settles, stuff is going to get INCREDIBLY shitty because of all the assholes in the world who can all of a sudden seize whatever the fuck they want. Actually, not even assholes. Anyone who wants to do something, and realises that he can now do it. And the only thing holding him back is his sense of morals.

Which in many cases is paper thin. People murder, cheat and steal.
Not because they can't reach subsistance, but because they WANT to.
Hand them the ability to do so with Magic? It's only going to get worse.

What's more, the possibility that some people will get or even start off more powerful than others, will quite possibly mean that they can exercise their greater force, and establish their own social order.

>>53608900
>I like those odds.
They are good odds. An isolated individual gradually coming to terms with--or falling apart at the seems--can be intercepted and either recruited, captured or neutralised.

>>53608940
It's funny because in the opening fiction to the 1st edition game of Mage, it's the exact opposite with the Kung-Fu Taoist-type Madam Dragon mage.

>>53608950
Everything you are saying here concerning statistics on overall standards of living is factually correct, given at face value. But that is not the issue about handing everyone varying degrees of wish-granting power.

>>53609005
>Everything you are saying here concerning statistics on overall standards of living is factually correct, given at face value

Indeed they are, but not only is that not the issue, it's a great demonstration of the old Mark Twain saying about lies, damn lies, and statistics. It's true that standards of living are technically up and murder is technically down, but that ignores the real human cost of the shit that goes down every fucking *day* in places like Africa, the Middle East, and Southeast Asia. People have not gotten less shitty, the less shitty people have just kind of gathered together.

>>53608950
I still see a lot of poor people struggling to live week by week, worrying about being able to scrape up enough cash together in order to feed themselves. I see a housing market that never recovered and places where jobs are hard to come by. You can see the effects of crime in every strata of society. The deindustrialisation taking place as factories that had been open for decades are being shut down to be run offshore. Many famous brands, once the staple product of the country, gone.

But rather than care about the current problems faced today, you'd much rather be smug and talk about your hippy accension:

>>53601055
>the freedome to overdose on anything and everything, while fucking in the mud like dogs attending Woodstock.

>>53608950
>war deaths are down
Like anything would beat the total of WWI + WWII.

>>53608915
>Deeply religious
How you got to your current state has no bearing on my judgement of it, friendo.

>Muh seven billion random events.
Life is random and always will be.

>>53608935
>muh unequal power dynamic.
This is the ultimate levelling of the power dynamic.

>>53608988
Society has persisted across wars, plagues, famines, social upheavals and the redefinition of our relationship to the state and to each other. We are made of sterner stuff than that. The fact that you think that people must be managed and that, obviously, you'd be the guy walking around party headquarters with a clipboard in his hands displays this blind spot. People coexist with one another because not doing so would invite retribution in one form or another.

>>53609005
>Everything you are saying here concerning statistics on overall standards of living is factually correct, given at face value. But that is not the issue about handing everyone varying degrees of wish-granting power.

And this didn't come about because it was willed to be from the top down. It came about because people were given the tools to make it so for themselves to varying degrees in varying societies.

>>53609054
Nice anecdotal evidence.

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>>53609134
>This is the ultimate levelling of the power dynamic.

Now it is you who is omitting context.

>Nice anecdotal evidence.

And now I'm just convinced this is all really shitty bait, because I refuse to believe you don't read or watch the fucking news.

>>53607036
If onyx path had any sense whatsoever they would be getting YOU to write their books. Cause honestly that one post shows a better understanding of the way Mage runs than the shitshow Brucato cobbled together.

>>53609134
>Society has persisted across wars, plagues, famines, social upheavals and the redefinition of our relationship to the state and to each other
No, it has not.
The concept has, but that's because concepts can be reinvented and rediscovered.
But numerous times throughout history, society has collapsed, and needed to be rebuilt.

>The fact that you think that people must be managed
And what would you call modern society? The Police don't exist to wipe your nose and find your dog.
You talk a lot of shit about the world being better than ever, but refuse to acknowledge the role that Government and social order has on that.
We're not better now than we were in centuries before just because we have had more time to cement notions of human rights and because we don't starve.
But because we have more control over radical elements, and individual people have less power to institute control over each other's lives.

Also
>you'd be the guy
Quit the personal shit, faggot.
I'm critiquing your ideas.
I couldn't give less of a shit about how you think you fit into them.

>>53604311
ITSA MAAGICKAAL FUCK YEAAH
MASTIGOS HERE TO SAVE THE MATAFAKIN DAY YEAAA

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>>53609054
The people who are arguing against you have a poor view of Universal Awakening as an outcome for man. They consider it so, if everyone was Awakened, in such condition there is no place for industry, because the fruit thereof is uncertain, and consequently no culture of the earth, no navigation nor the use of commodities that may be imported, no commodious building, no instruments of moving and removing such things, no knowledge of the face of the earth, no account of time, no arts, no letters, no society, and which is worst of all, continual fear and danger of violent death, and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.

This thread blew up real fast

I just don't see whats better about life under the Traditions. You have no more a chance to grow under the heel of the Traditions as you do anywhere else, its just replacing one dogma for another.

>>53609297
It would honestly help if the Traditions could somehow PROVE they had power, the power to do unearthly and wondrous things, without artifice or guile.

>>53609301
For the Traditions it's (supposedly) a click-wrap EULA you don't get to read first.

The consequence of life under the Technocracy however means having a unilaterally imposed condition where you must "give up" your rights; the freedom to plunder, rape, and murder.

You say you're art is real, but it is hollow. No amount of lies amounts to the truth.

>>53609319
>the freedom to plunder, rape, and murder.
unless of course, you work for the technocracy

>>53609319
Claiming that a person has "freely chosen" to accept life on the Technocrat's yolk is like chopping someone's legs off and then saying they are "freely choosing" not to walk. This is some Matris appologist tier shit. Who wouldn't want to live in the waste land of THE REAL.

>>53609319
I don't believe that the technocracy should hold all of societies moral authority in a social trust.

>>53609332
Reality from a physical context is fairly immutable. From a sociological one, it has possibility.

>>53609351
But you see, thats the technocracies monopoly, their grip on the material world. You can promise them whatever you want, but the technocracy has food for their bellies.

>>53609329
Clearly it wouldn't take much time trying to sell you on being a Technocrat, one of the ruling elite. They calmly explain that you are considered dead to the outside world after a failed attempt at suicide--your choice. Everything is your choice. And you choose to scream.

You make a change in the material world, people will follow you.

>>53609356
well, unfortunately, i can still lift heavy objects, so that puts that theory out the window.

>>53609342
Let all souls be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.--Romans 13:1:1

>>53609368
yeah, well, god didn't split the atom.
we did.

Are Seers of the Throne really that bad as antagonists?

>>53609375
Hopefully, we did.
All allegations directed at Shiva aside.

>>53609366
line_no, position position_no. Expected <element> opened at line line_no, position position_no .

>>53609378
Go get the Seers of the Throne book. Iz gud.

>>53609168
>Now it is you who is omitting context.
This is me challenging your definition.

>And now I'm just convinced this is all really shitty bait, because I refuse to believe you don't read or watch the fucking news.

On the long time frame, we're getting much better despite experiencing a short term setback. WWI and WWII were horrible but they didn't kill anywhere near the percentage of the population that the mongol expansion did.

>>53609186
Society in a general sense has, yes. Borders and modes have changed in response to pressures but organized, mostly peaceful coexistence within societies has gone on.

>>53609186
>And what would you call modern society?
Social order is generated by humans spontaneously cooperating for their mutual benefit. It is only on the large scale that government provides a stabilising force. In the wake of universal mass awakening, these principles would not change, only our response to them.

>>53609186
>Quit the personal shit, faggot.

Hmmm... no. You're still that retard who thinks that he's smarter than everyone else.

>>53609297
>>53609301
That's, basically the idea. Releasing humanity to make choices. Keep in mind that of the nine, two are technologically based paradigms. Technocracy fags just like to tip their fedoras and be all like "EVERYONE WILL BE VERBENA ALL THE TIME!"

>>53609319
>>53609329
You give up those "rights" under the traditions as well. Why do you guys always resort to the "TOTAL ANARCHY AND MADNESS IN THE STREETS!" argument.

>>53609378
They're less relatable and morally grey than the Technocractic Union.

However they're both more unequivocally evil, and also less idealistic.
They have seen the state of the world, the horror, the brutality.
And they decided they didn't want that to happen to them, and damn the consequences.

So they decided to kneel at the throne of the Exarchs, and do their bidding.
They suppress, repress, and dominate mankind, for that is their master's will.
In exchange, they gain power, both worldly, and Supernal.

Joining the Seers, is a calculated, rational choice.
It's not a particuarly nice one, by conventional morality.
But you don't have to be a psychopathic morons who wants to destroy the world.

I think it's because of this that they're a bit more unliked.
It's hard to think of yourself as a "good guy", when you play a Seer.
Meanwhile the Technocracy repeats constantly that you're the last line of defence against insanity, madness, and the destruction of mankind.

>>53609394
>Releasing humanity to make choices

But people tend to make the wrong choices. You might say that the technocracy giving the people a choice is part of why they are so stagnant, because they believed humanity was better than it really was.

>>53609394
I think the truth is you just want to punish people with bad taste. You want to punish people for making bad decisions. People are already punished enough. They have to suffer the results of the consequences of their actions. Isn't that enough?

The Technocracy was never meant to be morally grey.

Having them redefined as a relatable faction ruined much for me.

>>53609394
>This is me challenging your definition.

If this mass awakening happens in fits and bursts, the initial result will be anything but a level playing field. It will be the exact opposite. And this will not be fun times.

>On the long time frame, we're getting much better despite experiencing a short term setback

"Long term" versus "short term" is not relevant. What is relevant is that they happen. That people commit these acts. This will not change, and it will mar any social order that would come after such an event.

>>53609415
I guess the key is representing the authority to oppress those whose views you disagree with. Only by destroying the antithesis of what we believe can we allow our paradigm to propagate itself.

>>53609438
That's... Really pretty fucking sad.

>>53609461
So, inevitably, you end up picking the guy who wants the least to do with anybody to be the authority. The one who is least invested in reality.

>>53609492
Then everyone is free to pursue their agenda. Winners keep winning, losers keep dying. Rarely does being able to read the writing on the wall mean you are able to do anything about it.

>>53609418
The technocracy isn't about giving people choices. They called their part in the ascension war the Pogrom for fuck's sake. You seem to want them to be something that they aren't in the fluff.

And yes. Guess what. Freedom carries risk. In other news, the sun came up this morning.

>>53609436
Uhhh... no... that would be this guy. >>53609418 Acknowledging that actions have consequences and that we won't necessarily agree with each other is the opposite of that.

>>53609450
The end result will be a level playing field.

>Long term vs. Short Term
It's very significant. You seem to be of the impression that you can stop bad things from happening: You can't. When you try, you either fail or you fill mass graves. The technocracy is no more capable of alleviating this than any of their unenlightened analogs.

>>53609461
This guy gets the technocracy.

>>53609465
It really is. The Technocracy was originally intended to be as morally black as the Seers.

What happened? They were never supposed to be the good guys.

>>53609517
You promised them magick.
you didn't deliver.

>>53609535
>Technocracy fags step on the neck of whoever gets out of line for years.
>Cover up and rationalize anything that doesn't fit the mechanistic view of the cosmos.
>YOU DIDN'T DELIVER!?! DDDD:

Are all MiBfags this stupid?

>>53609394
>Why do you guys always resort to the "TOTAL ANARCHY AND MADNESS IN THE STREETS!" argument.
That's a rather poignant question. The reason I despise the Reality Deviants so damn much is because I've been subject to Technocrat indoctrination, and so my head happens to be filled with hateful thoughts of bloodthirsty witches and mad occultists who threaten the delicate facade we call reality. (I am being deliberately myopic and biased.)

I am projecting my own insecurities about the world. I have trust issues and paranoia.

>>53609394
>[About cooperating for mutual benefit]
Exactly.

When benefits are mutual,
then cooperation will follow.
Mutual cooperation results in benefits,
and thus leads to affection.
--Tai Wong Gung

>>53609394
>Technocracy fags just like to tip their fedoras and be all like "EVERYONE WILL BE VERBENA ALL THE TIME!"
Oh shit! Don't the Syndicate members still wear fedoras?

>>53609415
Tbh, if I was offered a job by the Seers of all things, I'd join up and be an accountant for these guys or do other data processing tasks, employ my degree, turn a blind eye or perform minor felonies; no different than any other civil servant or government employee does to get ahead in life when colluding with their corrupt peers. Scruples? What are those? Not when there are Cthulhus littered across the countryside.

>>53609581
>Joining up with the seers.
>Not doing a line of wizard coke off of a vampire stripper's ass and then turning her into a lawn chair when you get bored.

No half measures!

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>>53609603
>Body of a man found, died from alleged coke overdose involving a haemophile-striper in a warehouse filled with occult paraphernalia.
Oh yeah, livin' the dream.

>>53609574
>Are all MiBfags this stupid?

To the surprise of no one, the Technocracy is rife with internal struggles. Putting a bunch of egocentric inventors with different ideas of how reality should advance together was a recipe for disaster, and naturally it is filled with political wars and philosophical differences. The higher-ups are almost completely divorced with the reality of reality, thinking up theories without wondering how to apply it on a practical level; the front line is stuck trying to put these theories to the test, often with disastrous results. And during all of this, idealist and pragmatists vie for control--the former, justifying their actions for the good of all mankind, while the latter tries to seize more power and wealth to better implement the Union's lofty ideals. Both are tempted to misuse their power, and their struggles bring up the question: is this power a means to an end, or is it power itself the ultimate goal?

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>>53609415
>Seers of the Throne
>They're less relatable and morally grey than the Technocractic Union.

The Seers are very relatable, and by our standards, so casually evil, and that's precisely why they're some of the best (playable) antagonists in the CofD.

If you Awaken and realize reality as you know it is a prison, you can choose to be an inmate or a guard. There's no doubt that the Exarchs have already won the war for reality, why choose the losing side, particularly after winning the proverbial cosmic lottery.

Besides, the perks are fantastic. You will want for nothing, mundane or magical, living a life of luxury beyond mortal comprehension. The price, even for a prelate, is miniscule. You need only occasionally obey the orders of literal gods to screw over some sleepers while the vast majority of time you pursue your own mysteries or simply enjoy the benefits of great power (see, e.g., snorting magic coke off the ass of vampire strippers, etc.). Heck, in the real world, you often need to screw people over to get ahead, no less truly prosper. The Seers are little different than ubiquitous corporate ambition, except the pay and benefits are so much better. It's a dog eat dog world, if people want to avoid being eaten, they too should Awaken.

The Seers are the truest expression of banal human ambition, greed and survival instinct. Those who self-righteously say they would never be Seers are lying to themselves.

>>53604225
Sorry for the late reply
I picked Cairo because it's a hub of mixing cultures, it has a long history, notably egyptian, that lends itself to all sorts of ancient spirits shenanigans, and it's a crucial passage point towards Europe, the middle east and subsaharan Africa

Also there is the Nile, which lent itself very well to the crocodiles in the sewers game (originally written for New York, loosely adapted it for the purpose of the scenario) and serves as a very powerful ley line/spiritual entity

The first games tied into this thematic of the Nile too, because the serial killer they were chasing killed young men and bathed in a mixture of their blood, mixed with Nile water and other stuff, as part of a ritual (ritual of Nefer Kerthet, I think ?) to gain eternal life and get massive boosts to charisma and all physical stats
When they finally undid the ritual, I had the pleasure of describing a gruesome scene in which the Nile reclaimed all the blood that man had spent
They had thrown him into his villa's pool (filled with water that technically came from the Nile and emptied into it) and he started excreting all his past victims' blood from all openings

He was also the single most popular crooner in Egypt at the time (Abdelhamid Hafez, I think ? I don't have my notes) and placing it there allowed me to use egyptian crooner music as a background
It was a laughing matter at first and got suprisingly creepy as the game progressed

>>53609820

You made Abdel Halim Hafez a serial killer? Whew, I know a huge amount of my family who would be FURIOUS if they heard that.

>>53610975

>>53609784

The Seers are ultimately people who don't give a fuck about anyone but themselves, or at least they tell themselves that. Ultimately, I feel a mage is their only judge where fallen ethics are concerned.

The thing about the Seers is they're less admirable than the Technocrats. If the Nephandi won, the Union would look a lot more like the Seers.

>>53604700
>>53604882
>>53604909
>>53605076
>>53605143

As I said, I don't require Mages to make Wisdom rolls for stuff that doesn't involve magic. However, they can still acquire mental conditions for appropriately monstrous non-magical behavior.

Working on a seer antagonist who sells sleepers to the true fae. Although he has a higher wisdom than his abyss-dabbling adversary (another NPC), the Nefandus is actually someone we would recognize as a "better" person than him.

>>53608236

As would the Virtual Adepts, Sons of Ether, Euthanatos, Dreamspeakers, Cult of Ecstasy, and the Akashic Brotherhood. The only trad with a really strong anti-science focus as of revised is the Verbena.

>>53608320
If Beast were really focused on the whole "being a monster" thing, fixed it's mechanics, and made it clear Heroes and Beasts are mirrors of one and other, It could actually be a good game.

Jacob on the OPP Forum actually created an alternate "win state" called "the beast sagacious" which requires befrinding a high-integrity, high power hero and working together to stop a beast or hero trying to do something horrible, IIRC.

As it stands, it's just a circle-jerk for alienated teens above and beyond anything in OWoD.

>>53605178

I once rolled a GG Allin-esque thrysus who did all that without having any derangements. Ended up self-initiating into the Fallen Pillar.

>>53608403

Almost everyone else's wants and needs would include them quitting that shit. I once played an Iterator whose idea of ascension resembled The Culture crossed with the Helios ending of Invisible War.