>seperates children from their parents >discriminate and

>>53590612
>thereby creating a endless cycle of them falling and causing destruction.

Nope

>They arrogantly assume their side is stronger than the dark.

Nope.


>If a member of their order even so much has an independent thought than the council they are branded as evil.

Nope

Rest is just you trying to twist words. They literally have a style and users who use dark side powers for lightsaber combat.

>>53590612
>FROM MY POINT OF VIEW THE JEDI ARE EVIL

>>53590656
He does have a point in the last one.
Wasn't obi-wan master barred from the jedi council due to his conflicting views of the force

>>53590612
To be fair, the Old Republic MMO has a subplot for these. No, it doesn't resolve any of them satisfactory, but hey, people are thinking.

>>53590612
The Jedi really are stupid if you ask me, but so are the Sith.

>>53590612
Star Wars would be so much better if all of these points were actually accepted, something the writers think about, instead of the canon insisting that no, there actually is a black-and-white good-vs-evil scenario here. It wouldn't even mean that the Jedi would have to be the bad guys, or that the Jedi and Sith should be equally grey. Just acknowledging that the Jedi philosophy has its problems, some of them practical, some of them ethical, and having the Dark Side be more bout philosophy and less about corruption would do wonders.

>>53590612
>Prequel bullshit about love and emotions, that Lucas came up with because of a bad divorce
>Extended universe bullshit written by hacks
Plebs.

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>>53590612
And then there's this dumbass that thinks he's oh so clever pointing out how jedi are the baddies all along.

Stay salty, edgefag

>>53590717
Qui-Gon may not have been on the jedi council because of his disagreements with them, but that's hardly the same as being branded evil.

>>53591043
>He says while posting one of the biggest nearly evil things the Jedi have done

>>53591006
>and having the Dark Side be more bout philosophy and less about corruption would do wonders.

The dark side IS corruption though.

That being said, the Sith philosophy in and of itself isn't particularly horrible, it's just that the Sith keep using the dark side to leverage it and whoops suddenly they've gone full evil asshole because it turns out that playing with corruption corrupts you.

>>53591096
>The dark side IS corruption though.
Yes, anon. I'm saying I think the setting was better if it wasn't, not in any sense beyond the regular old "power corrupts".

>>53590612
>They try to assassinate a chancellor of a democratically elected republic due to being a sith, and if it wasn't for a proud patriot they would have created a theocracy.
This
Once they tried to kill sheeve they lost their chance

>>53591110
Better in what way? So it'll be able to tell edgy stories about if drowning orphans is really evil, if it's for the greater good? Fuck you, you are what's wrong with fantasy.

>>53591006
Meh. Sometimes it's perfectly fine to have a story about plain good vs evil. Not everything needs shades of grey.

I've always preferred the "dark side doesn't turn you into an asshole, being an asshole turns you to the dark side" school of thought. Palpatine wasn't evil because he shot lightning out of his fingers, he was evil because the most important things for him were destruction and dominance - and his use of the Force reflected that.

>>53590612
>>They try to assassinate a chancellor of a democratically elected republic due to being a sith
Ackshually, they tried to arrest him, to which he responded by killing most of the group sent to arrest him.

>>53591135
No, anon. What the fuck are you even gibbering about? Unless you're implying that drowning orphans isn't evil unless you're doing it because of Dark Side corruption, your entire post makes no sense whatsoever. Doing evil shit is evil, obviously, but this has nothing whatsoever to do with whether the Dark Side should be inherently corrputing. Having two opposing philosophies about the Force and its proper use is a whole lot more nuanced, a whole lot more interesting, and leaves room for a whole lot more stories if these philosophies aren't just reduced to Good and Evil.

>>53591140
Sure, but there isn't exaclty a shortage of such stories, and you can tell such stories even if there aren't any great cosmic forces of good and evil. I mean, the plot of the original movie trilogy would work just fine even if Dark Side wasn't corruption. The Emperor could and would still be evil, and there wouldn't be much of a moral dilemma about whether he should be overthrown or not.

>>53591159
Poor showing from master Fisto.

>>53591199
>Ummmm, ahhhcktually you'll find that frying people alive with the power of your hate not only shouldn't be inherently evil, but also...
How about fucking no.

>>53590612
They Jedi had their own problems.
Extremely dogmatic and so blinded by arrogance a sith lord managed to boss then around.
They also refused to give back a 6 month old baby because she had already started training, on top of preaching to their disciples to not have any emotion whatsoever and form no attachments like any living being would.
It's a small wonder they fell so easily.

>>53591199
Hold on, I remember you. We already talked about this before, maybe two months ago? You never quite managed to explain how shades of gray and moral ambiguity will improve Star Wars. Can you do it this time?

>>53591221
>>53591135
>>53591096
What alarms me the most is this troll is getting a halfway thought-out response from the other guy.

>>53591221
Fucker, you are still making no sense. Aside from the obvious fact that the power to fry people alive is as inherently evil as a gun, a lightsaber or any other wy to kill and hurt people, doing evil shit is still evil. Killing innocents with the Force is evil, no shit. This has nothing, nothing at all, to do with whether there should be an inherenlty evil and corrupting side of the Force. Fuck, could you at leats attempt to read and address the things I'm actually saying?

>>53591250
Are you one of those autists, who argues that necromancy shouldn't be an evil school?

>>53591020
>implying the original trilogy was any better
It's all schlock written by hacks, directed by hacks and played mostly by hacks.

The only difference is that by the time the prequels came out you were old enough to realize it.

>>53591287
Joke's on you, I saw the prequels first. I liked them too - until I saw the original trilogy.

>>53591230
I've never discussed this before on 4chan, so you're thinking of some other anon. As for the explanation, aside from my personal, entirely subjective dislike for cosmic good and evil - which, to make it clear, does not imply moral subjectivism when it comes to things people do - I just feel like a black and white view on things excludes more stories than it enables. That is pretty much it. Two different philosophies clashing is cool, good and evil clashing is something I've seen countless times already.

>>53591300
Then your taste is just dictated by popular opinion. There's very little difference in writing quality or acting quality between the prequels and the sequels.

Although I will concede that the practical effects of the original look better than the shit CG of the prequels, in most cases.

>>53590612
>>Whenever they is a dark slide user, they attack them and kills them
actually they always try to turn them from the dark side and get killed because of it

>>53591318
>my opinion is objectively better than your opinion
Fuck off back to /tv/.

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>>53591318
Have a (you)

>>53591348
Why would I go to /tv/? The movies are the worst part about Star Wars.

>>53591366
i partially agree, though i like the originals and the prequels, they are on a level with some of the decent eu things, but below some of the best eu stories

meanwhile let's not speak of the sequels

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>>53591366
>The movies are the worst part about Star Wars.
I also enjoy the works of the geniuses such as Timothy Zahn and Karen Traviss

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>Lightside is stronger than the darkside
>Gets exterminated by the sith

>>53591521
>Sith supposedly great and powerful
>Always destroy themselves in the end

>>53591509
Still better than Lucas. He should stick to worldbuilding and being an "ideas guy."

Darth Vectivus, in the life he enjoyed prior to becoming a Sith, was a male Human who served as the director of the Jonex Mine Eight Eleven B asteroid mining colony in the MZX32905 star system near the planet Bimmiel. A shrewd and principled businessman, he shut down the operation when the reservoir of dark side energy over which the colony was situated began to negatively influence his employees. Because of his own Force sensitivity, he began to study and experiment with the mysterious anomaly himself, where he developed a Force technique which involved the creation of dark side–empowered phantoms. He eventually did away with the entire mining operation and left the habitat for a time in search of the Sith. His quest was ultimately fruitful, and upon completion of his apprenticeship, he ascended to mastery as Darth Vectivus, Dark Lord of the Sith. He participated in the Banite Sith under the Rule of Two: a master and an apprentice. Though a proponent of the dark side, Darth Vectivus' self-discipline and preexisting code of ethics allowed him to remain fair and balanced without succumbing to the lure of power which plagued many of the Sith Lords who preceded him. He eventually returned to the mine and maintained a plentiful existence in the company of friends and loved ones alike.

>>53591572
The established moral code of his former existence as a business executive was not lost to Darth Vectivus during his transformation into a Sith Lord, and adherence to those ethical standards prevented him from succumbing to the stereotypically common shortcomings of his predecessors. Violence, galactic ambition, and the eradication of the Sith's philosophical Jedi rivals were of no consequence to him; his contention was to simply immerse himself in Sith lore and study the galaxy. Upon his return to the mine years later as a fully fledged Sith Lord, Vectivus built a mansion in the heart of the asteroid's dark side potency. He also fashioned a personal Sith holocron which contained his philosophy on business practices, as well as a detailed explanation on the implementation of dark side–empowered projections. An ability developed by Vectivus himself, these phantoms were controlled Force apparitions that required the healthy soul of a living host to serve as the manifestation's anchor into the physical realm. Each was inextricably linked to the other; if one was killed or destroyed, the other would suffer the same fate. Such was Vectivus' ability that summoning hundreds of concurrent phantoms required little effort. Darth Vectivus eventually died at the Home, having lived out the remainder of his days surrounded by friends and family.

>>53591366
Noice b8 lad

>>53591199
My nigga...

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jensaarai

>>53590612
Childhood is thinking the Rebels and Jedi are the good guys.

Adulthood is knowing the Empire and Sith were the heroes.

>>53591607
The empire and the sith are not the heroes. Care to explain why you think they are?

>>53591159

You are right. Learning that he is a Sith gives the Chancellor a direct link to the Separatists which makes him a huge suspect for treason.

>>53591250
There are accounts of Jedi using force lightning, so it's not inherently evil, it's just very... showy... which the Sith prefer. The Jedi typically use the force in very subdued ways, the Sith are performance artists. It's the difference in their natures. Jedi are hermetic warrior monks, and Sith are charismatic power seekers... usually. There are also several factions of force users that teach a balance between the light and dark side of the force (the Jedi typically eradicate them, but not always). The Jedi and Sith are just both extremists, and extremism always causes problems, Muhammed.

>>53591582

He was a capitalist hence he is evil.

>>53591666
so the Jedi are communists? Even more reason to eradicate them

>>53591638
because they fight against PoCs, Aliens, women and religious terrorists

>>53591753
>everyone who isn't capitalist is a communist
>americans are genuinely this retarded

>>53591250
Maybe if a gun was powered with the pure hatred of the user

>>53591857
Force Lightning as hate rays is a pretty silly concept. Simply using the Force to create electricity is better

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>>53590612
>Separates children from parents.
Do we ever see them doing this as kidnapping? Qui-gon pulled Anikin sure, but his mom was all for getting him out of slavery and off world. I know that in Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter, we learn of a young force-user taken in by the Order was sent to them freely, but didn't expect that he'd be fired from his custodial position there at the temple to ensure the separation. Dick move, but this isn't quite what you're making it out to be.

>Hunts and kills dark-side philosophers.
Pretty sure that's a mutually offered bit of violence. Not a good point in either's favor.

>Assassinate a democratically elected leader.
One who was clearly gaming the system to stay in that place of power rather than accepting the people's will in turn. Don't think there's any indication that the Jedi would've taken control aside from putting the Senate back to doing its job.

>Assume their side is stronger.
Nope. Plenty of instances of Yoda or the others stating that the Dark Side is a powerful force to be reckoned with, just that its use isn't worth the cost.

>Independent thinking is branded as evil.
Qui-gon was respected despite his wild-card status. Mace Windu created a combat style based in the Dark-Side and was kept on the Council.

When it comes down to it, the Jedi weren't the good guys. They were the protagonists. That doesn't make them good nor evil, nor does it say the opposite for the Sith and company.

Still, half-decent bait has made a potentially fun thread so thanks OP.

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>>53590612
>>53591006
>>53590717

KOTOR 2 WAS A MISTAKE

>>53590612
>Claim to be peaceful
>At the same time they'r members are often leading armies and being generals.
>All of they'r members wield one of the most deadly infantry weapons which are also exclusive to them.
At least sith are honest about being a bunch of power-hungry megalomaniacs

>>53590612
>discriminate and Exterminate a religion simply due to believing the opposite of them.

That is not why the Jedi oppose the Sith.

>Whenever they is a dark slide user, they attack them and kills them

You will note that in every instance where a Jedi went up against a Sith in the films, the Sith made the first move, with a singular exception - Luke's fight with Vader in Episode V (and even you might argue that Vader made the first move since torturing Han and Leia was all to get Luke to come to him anyway).

>They try to assassinate a chancellor of a democratically elected republic due to being a sith

The fact that he had orchestrated an entire civil war and played both sides against each other MIGHT have also had something to do with it.

>They arrogantly assume their side is stronger than the dark.

There is no such thing as the "light side". There is only the Force, and it has a Dark Side that VISIBLY is shown to be horrible and corrupting in the series.

>If a member of their order even so much has an independent thought than the council they are branded as evil.

That's blatantly not true by the simple fact that Dooku was allowed to leave the order peaceful more than a decade before Episode II. Likewise Qui-Gon constantly disagreed with the Council, but they just thought of him as contrarian, not evil.

>>53590612
>>seperates children from their parents
A small sacrifice for the greater good of the state and humanity. To say that the suffering of one individual or family outweighs the needs of society, shows a very warped perspective on what is good.
>>discriminate and Exterminate a religion simply due to believing the opposite of them.
If your religion is good then of course it is good to destroy religions that are diametrically opposed to you. Anything else just demonstrates a lack of faith in your cause.
>>Whenever they is a dark slide user, they attack them and kills them
As above
>>They try to assassinate a chancellor of a democratically elected republic due to being a sith, and if it wasn't for a proud patriot they would have created a theocracy.
As above.
If your religion is true and good then a theocracy is far more morally right than some corruptible democracy. Democracy is overrated, it is merely the best of a series of bad options for determining governance of a state.
>>instead of trying to understand and overcome their negative emotions they prefer to shut it down, thereby creating a endless cycle of them falling and causing destruction.
I'll grant you this one. Sometimes life needs us to embrace the shadow within.
>>They arrogantly assume their side is stronger than the dark.
If it's not stronger then what's the point. They might as well give up immediately.
>>If a member of their order even so much has an independent thought than the council they are branded as evil.
Also a valid criticism.

>>53592094
> but his mom was all for getting him out of slavery and off world.

Also let's not forget that Qui-Gon first tried to get both Anakin AND Shmi, but Watto objected on the grounds that no pod, no matter how good, is worth two slaves. So Qui-God went for just Anakin, since if Qui-Gon was right and Anakin was the Chosen One, getting him the Hell off of Tatooine was of paramount importance.

>>53590656
That's not canon.

>>53590612
>seperates children from their parents
Er, don't we see the children still with their parents in Clone Wars? The parents also know the Order will come eventually, but they don't exactly seem to be hiding.

>They arrogantly assume their side is stronger than the dark.
Yoda never says the light is stronger than the dark. Just that the dark is quicker, easier, and more destructive.

>If a member of their order even so much has an independent thought than the council they are branded as evil.
Qui-Gon defied the council all the time, he barely even got slaps on the wrist for it. Obi-Wan threatened to defy them and teach Anakin, and Yoda had misgivings but didn't actually try to stop him.

>>53591857
>>53591951
I never saw it as hate rays, more that it's a lot easier to use the dark side to power it because the dark side is supposed to be a quick and easy path to power.

Producing the same sort of effect without the darkside should be a shitload harder, and require a far more competent Jedi than your average knight-level guy.

>>53594255
Wrong

>>53591353
Damn, that's a pretty fresh (you).

>>53593221
>A small sacrifice for the greater good of the state and humanity.
Separating Anakin from the nurturing environment provided by his mother worked so well.

For the rest of your post, you've just defined fanaticism, without making a single point about why the jedi are good.

>>53594876
Mate he got whored out to death races for money.

>>53591533
>If you aren't cooperative and collectivistic, you can't be powerful.

>>53590612
Reminder that the CIS were the real good guys.

>>53596114
This. They did nothimg wrong

Balance of the force is code word for Sith genocide.

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Has everyone trying to argue for the Jedi being the "bad guys", and the Sith being "dindu nuffins" forgotten fucking Darth Nihilus? You know, the guy who was so steeped in the Dark Side that he had become a literal void, a wound in the Force? A void that consumed entire planets, sucking them dry of the Force and leaving them barren wastes devoid of any life, or even the very CAPACITY of birthing life in any form whatsoever? The guy whose ultimate goal was to effectively suck the entire universe dry of the Force in it's entirety, leaving a completely dead void in which only he could exist? THAT Darth Nihilus? How does that constitute the Sith being an "oppressed minority that didn't do anything to anybody"? Are you people really that fucking blind to how blatantly evil the Sith and the Dark Side are?

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>>53591521
Who the hell colored Futo's shirt green?

>>53590612

Responding without reading the thread first, but here:

>seperates children from their parents

Entirely voluntary. If parents think they might have a force sensitive child, they call the Jedi. Jedi then come and tell them whether they are or not, and then give the parents the choice to either keep their child or give them over to the Jedi for training.

>discriminate and Exterminate a religion simply due to believing the opposite of them.

They don't discriminate and exterminate dark side users simply for being dark side users. It just seems that way because, almost without exception, dark side users are dangerous to everyone around them and can't keep their sociopathic and destructive tendencies in check. If there was a dark side user who never hurt anybody else, the Jedi would leave them alone.

>Whenever they is a dark slide user, they attack them and kills them

Pretty much the same point you just made, so my above response will go here too.

>They try to assassinate a chancellor of a democratically elected republic due to being a sith

They didn't try to assassinate him because he's a Sith, they tried to assassinate him because he created a galactic civil war, playing both sides against each other, killing and endangering billions and billions of living beings, all so he could orchestrate his own rise to power and be in charge of it all. This is going back to my second response, and you've now made the same point 3 times in a row.

>and if it wasn't for a proud patriot they would have created a theocracy.

Maybe, maybe not. They would have done the best they could. Pretty much anything would be better than an incredibly dangerous madman having absolute authority over the galaxy. They likely would have just kept power temporarily until more elections were held, but we'll never know for sure.

tbc

>>53591006
Except Star Wars itself is fundamentally black and white. It's not merely 'oh they're just lazy/pussies with the force', the OT movies fall apart if you start giving the bad guys (as an entity) nuance or humanity.

>>53597575 continued...


>instead of trying to understand and overcome their negative emotions they prefer to shut it down, thereby creating a endless cycle of them falling and causing destruction.

I'll give you a little bit of this one. The smart ones understood the dark side, let themselves feel the negative feelings, and then let them go. I like to think that the whole "stifle and squelch all emotion" is something they do with young padawans until they're old enough and strong enough to understand better before they get into "accept these funny feelings for what they are and let them go".

>They arrogantly assume their side is stronger than the dark.

I don't think they ever actually say this. All they say is that the dark side is not stronger, just easier. I don't have a whole lot to say on this matter though.

>If a member of their order even so much has an independent thought than the council they are branded as evil.

They're not branded as evil. The worst thing the council would do is expel them from the order. And to be fair, membership of the Jedi order is voluntary. They don't force anybody to stay. There are plenty of examples of people who leave the order. The Jedi order is ancient and has their own way of doing things. It's clearly worked for them, as they are widely loved across the galaxy and have been around for thousands of years. There's no place in such an order for a few upstarts who want to go against the wisdom of the entire council. If they can't get along, they don't belong. I feel this makes perfect sense.

>>53591282
Not him, but that depends entirely on the context of how necromancy works in the setting.

>>53591096
the dathomiri witches seemed perfectly sane just kind of massive bitches to the guys and thats kind of standard for their archetype, the dark side isnt the sith and the light isnt the jedi

>>53591521
You can't exterminate the force, no matter what lies Kreia feeds you.

>>53597137
Its depressing the sith race is extinct

>>53598577
Well maybe all the humans in the sith empire shouldn't have outbred them.

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They're the good guys because star wars was a very simple story about good defeating evil. There is no complex morality to the universe at all because it was sprung from a simple movie that had the same kind of moral complexity as a fucking children's fairy tale. Anyone who tries to find a deeper meaning in it or "argue" about who's good and who's evil in Star Wars is as big of a fucking retard as George is.

>>53598167
Pretty sure he was talking about how the Jedi keep insisting the Lightside or "the force" if you will is inherently stronger than the Darkside only to be exterminated

>>53599684
Yeah probably. To which I say ask yourself how many jedi died to dark force users compared to how many died to schmucks with blasters and the element of surprise during the course of the PT. Protip: the numbers don't look good for the dark side being stronger

>>53591638
The Empire stood for an authoritarian system of order and peace. The Sith stood for embracing one's emotions and making the most of them. While neither was perfect they were leagues better than the Rebellion and Jedi.

>>53600647
>The Empire stood for an authoritarian system of order and peace.
The Empire stood for one man showing he could win the Sith dickwaving contest forever. It accomplished nothing the Republic couldn't have and was built on a foundation of deceit and needless death.

>>53590612
The Jedi are stupid, but the Sith are nonsensical.
The more details ascribed to either, the more the setting suffers for it.

>>53592228
Peaceful is not the same as pacifist. To borrow a quote from a movie in an unrelated franchise
>A wise king never seeks out war, but he must always be ready for it

Palpatine did nothing wrong.

>>53593235
>no pod, no matter how good, is worth two slaves
Which is weird when you think about it. Podracers seem surprisingly cheap for top racing vehicles.

>>53594255
>Qui-Gon defied the council all the time
Beside, he is the kind of guy that when asked to bring a queen to Coruscant to warn about an invasion with a world population at stake decide it's time to gamble on car races.
Will of the force or not, you may not want the guy on your council.

>>53601753
>decide it's time to gamble on car races.
Well sure, if you strip away all the context of 'need to get their ship fixed and republic money is useless on this planet, it sounds kinda bad. Unless you were expecting him to just steal the parts like some kind of thief, then haul them through the desert while being chased by whatever passes for law enforcement outside of republic territory.

>>53590612
Because the other guys are just retarded to the point of danger.

>>53591199
>but there isn't exaclty a shortage of such stories

Actually, there is a shortage. We have the ones already made, but no new blood. Everyone is trying to be nuanced and/or edgy today. Grey is what's unoriginal now.

>>53601800
I was trying to show it from an outside perspective.
Qui-Gon can be extremely weird if you're a not deep into force mysticism, and still a bit weird if you are.
And they could just have sold the ship to buy some tickets to Coruscant in whatever ship there may be. The betting thing wasn't so much about reaching Coruscant but about getting Anakin.
I'm not saying that Qui-Gon was wrong here, just that from an outside perspective that seems weird and irresponsible.

>>53591521
>dark side exterminates jedi
>still manages to lose

This is why the light is stronger. Darkie is retarded.

>>53602045
>Implying Luke isn't a Gray Jedi.

>>53602264
Gray Jedi is a retarded idea, and there's nothing that suggests that Luke would go "gray" (if there even was a thing - hint: there isn't. It's like being a "gray vegetarian" who still eats meat).

>>53601800
Technically he probably could have sold or traded the Noobian ship for a different one. The ship was in perfect working order except for one part.

>>53602837
No

>>53602837
Too sensible.

>>53591766
You do realize that the fett clones aren't white right? The Empire doesn't care about your skin color.

>The Force is an amoral life-force
>There is no light side or dark side, those terms only designate those who use it for peace and light vs those who use it for personal ambition.
>Get rid of all the edgy try-hard shit in the prequels and EU

There, I fixed Star Wars. Disney, give me free stuff.

>>53605350
>Implying he's going to let facts get in the way of being an empirefag

>>53591156
He also started a galactic war that killed millions just so he could gain power, and killed anyone standing in his way.

Sithfags must go

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>>53590612
>seperates children from their parents
Good, the safety of the psyker cannot be trusted to the common men of the Imperium. They will be at pease in the service or sacrifice of the Astronomicon.

>discriminate and Exterminate a religion simply due to believing the opposite of them.
There is no simply about it. Heresy in all of its many forms breeds Chaos, and must be exterminated ruthlessly and without mercy lest the Imperium suffer under its shadow.

>Whenever they is a dark slide user, they attack them and kills them
Never again will the servants of the Emperor suffer treachery akin to Horus and his heretical legions. All deviancy must be purged.

>instead of trying to understand and overcome their negative emotions they prefer to shut it down, thereby creating a endless cycle of them falling and causing destruction.
All emotions feed the Ruinous Powers of the Warp. Suffer not the daemon nor the witch.

>They arrogantly assume their side is stronger than the dark.
The light of the Emperor will one day exterminate the dark shadow of Chaos from the galaxy!

>If a member of their order even so much has an independent thought than the council they are branded as evil.
A closed mind is a focused mind.

>>53591006
Lucas is a hack writer.

>>53605597
How dare you

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>>53590612
>It's another 'people read too hard into SW' thread

>>53606879
Not our fault lucas is a hack

Whatever this post, or even this thread, was an attempt at, it failed.

Unless failure was what was being attempted, in which case it begs the philosophical question if one can fail at being a failure.

>>53590612
>How are they the good guys? Honestly how?

I would love to see an interpretation of Star Wars where they AREN'T the good guys TBQH FAMILY.

I always imagined them as a much more neutral, ascetic monk branch of a larger religion that as time went on became less wide spread/popular. Or a cult that, like Scientology, begins to writhe it's way into the crevices of the state to get it's way.

>>53590612
So, you're saying Abrams is right and "The jedi must end"?

>>53590731
And meanwhile, the Imperial Agent is the only non-force user class that genuinely explores how much life sucks when you live in agalaxy basically filled with self-righteous or sociopathic demi-gods.

I miss the original class stories.

Fuck this Eternal Empire bullshit.

The Minister of Intelligence gave my agent a fucking Dossier of people to recruit to start a new Imperial Intelligence! Why haven't I built up my new Imperial Intelligence organization WITHOUT Kaliyo?

>>53608286
>So, you're saying Abrams is right and "The jedi must end"?
Luke probably meant the order. The jedi should remain few, they shouldn't be bound by stupid rules and they shouldn't get into politics.

>>53598704
>There is no complex morality to the universe at all because it was sprung from a simple movie that had the same kind of moral complexity as a fucking children's fairy tale.

It's almost like you only saw A New Hope and then never watched another Star Wars movie ever again.

If you had to explain Star Wars in one sentence:

Son of mass murderer redeems father.

There is a more complex story going on in Star Wars even if it wasn't Lucas' initial vision when he made A New Hope which very much is "Good vs Evil". But in the original trilogy it's less about simple "Good vs Evil" and about the Son redeeming the Father and reigniting the flame of his humanity.

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>>53605597
>>53607718
>>53591020
>>53591287
Funny enough, yes, being a hack writer is part of the problem with the Jedi.

George Lucas made Star Wars to be HIS ultimate setting which incorporated everything he loved. WWII dogfights, cowboy shootouts, and samurai.

Now, the problem with that last one is that George was a proto-weeb. Everything he understood about samurai came from movies.

George Lucas never studied Eastern Philosophies or history for context of the former, and I doubt he looked too deeply into the samurai caste as a whole. (Said caste primarily being defined by an era when they were useless doorguards and neutered by Tokugawa)

And so, the Jedi Order is basically a thin fascimile of a weaboo's 'understanding' of samurai and Buddhist monks transplanted into space.

And what we get are 'heroes' who don't act terribly heroic.

>>53591318
the prequels feel like a sci-fi fairy tale? actually, the original trilogy is very good writing and a very good production because it is THE modern, sci-fi fairy tale. you may not LIKE such fairy tales but that's just a matter of taste and doesn't speak for the quality of the trilogy.

>>53608418
Muh hunor

>>53598704
Please, like if Ben "from a certain PoV" and "abandon your friends and finish your training" Yoda were unequivocally good.

>>53608418
>when they were useless doorguards

Do you mean civil functionaries who never saw combat and ronin?

>>53608418
>And what we get are 'heroes' who don't act terribly heroic.
I agree with this for the most part.
And the interesting thing is that it ends up partially negating the whole view of the Jedi as all 100% Good Guys and that the story is pure "Good versus Evil".

When I first saw Return of the Jedi and Obi Wan copped to his whole "from a certain point of view" deception, I viewed it as more manipulative and deceptive than a Paragon of Goodness was supposed to be.
The only possible reasons for that would be "shit writing" (which did not spring to mind primarily due to my age and the acting talents of Sir Alec Guinness) or, that Obi Wan Kenobi, despite sacrificing himself for the betterment of Luke and the Galaxy, was not, in fact, a Paragon of Goodness.
Which was fine too, because he was still a great Jedi Master.

>>53591006
But Anon, the Jedi philosophy _is_ wrong in-universe. It causes Anakin's fall (by making him ignore his mother's distress signal until it's too late, and forcing him to hide is marriage), and rejecting it allows Luke to defeat the Empire (by embracing his feelings towards his father, sister and friends, and rejecting the notion that tapping into the Dark Side in his final duel with Vader means he has to let it dominate his destiny).

The Jedi philosophy is wrong because it's tainted by the Dark Side: the Jedi are hysterically afraid of it to the point of refusing to let themselves actually care about other beings or the outcome, thus crippling themselves and not even trying to do anything about horrible things like slavery or corruption all around them. They interacted with Palpatine on daily basis and refused to see what he was because they thought he'd made a great Jedi. The Sith might have given them the final push, but the tree was already rotten to the core.

All of which gives a new perspective to the whole Chosen One thing: the Jedi Order had fallen to the Dark Side and was on the verge of going full psycho. Just look at how Yoda and Obi-Wan lied to Luke about his father to make him their assassin - Palpatine would be proud. Or look how Mace lost control and tried to murder Palpatine, a beaten, surrendered enemy who he had previously tried to arrest. Anakin brought balance to the Force by destroying both corrupt orders and leaving Luke to build a new one on healthier basis.

>>53609189
>"abandon your friends and finish your training" Yoda wasn't unequivocally good.
To be fair, he was arguing against an untrained apprentice Jedi, and the best and nearly only hope for ending the tyranny of the Emperor, walking straight into a trap and directly confronting an enemy he was not equipped to defeat risking defeat, death, and falling to the dark side like his father before him.

I kinda saw his point.
When you are horribly outnumbered and waging a rebellion against a superior force, your friends and allies are going to have to be abandoned sometimes.
War is hell.
Yoda knows war and urged the cautious response, but ultimately let Luke go.

>>53609226
>Anakin's perversion of the Jedi philosophy is wrong
FTFY

>>53609226

The overall philosophy isn't the problem, the problem was that the PT council was full of a bunch of stodgy bastards sitting on a thousand or so years of not having anything major to do so they introspected so hard they started trying to navelgaze from inside their own assholes.

And then it turned out that whoops, the bad guys they thought were gone had just been in hiding the whole time and their master plan has just started to kick off.

>>53597666
>the OT movies fall apart if you start giving the bad guys (as an entity) nuance or humanity
The Dark Side is all about stripping away your humanity so it can't make you hesitate to do whatever it takes to win no matter what the cost to yourself or others.

That's actually distressingly common IRL, from ISIS to Nazis to US conservatives. I think that's why the movies have such staying power: their depiction of the nature of evil hit the bullseye.

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>>53590612
>from my point of view the jedi are evil

>>53609420
>from ISIS to Nazis to US conservatives.

Nice bait anon, 8/8.

>>53609335
>horrible things like slavery or corruption all around them
>not having anything major to do
Anon, they had _plenty_ of work to do. They were just too afraid of falling to the Dark Side to do it. And that fear led them to the very thing they were afraid of.

The Sith and the Jedi were their own worst enemies. In the end, both Orders became parodies of themselves and self-destructed.

>>53609614
>Nice bait anon, 8/8.
All these groups consider hardness a virtue and empathy a vice. Or do you deny this?
This is also the defining characteristic of the Sith, or any Dark Side user. Or do you deny this?

>>53609699
Before I answer your question, where are you from?

>>53609660
>slavery
Stopping this one would require getting the Republic to sign up for a war with the Hutts. Good luck with that.
>corruption
This one is rather more valid, and may well have been happening in the background, I don't know what the EU has to say regarding PT jedi activities. It is at least known that during the movies themselves, ole Sheevy boy was clouding the force, lessening the jedi's capabilities. Likely to keep his corruption hidden.

>>53590612
If the dark side could get you what you really want, don't you think more people would try it?

>>53609719
>Before I answer your question, where are you from?
My place of residence has no relevance to the ethics of any group, or to the similarity they bear to those of the Sith.

>>53590612
This is another case of Aragorn's tax policy. This is a fairy tale. With clearly defined dark and light sides. Because. It's made. For kids.

>>53609869
>My place of residence has no relevance to the ethics of any group

It has relevance to what you think US conservatives are via media representation and lack of actual experience living in the United States and interacting with US citizens who may self identify as "Conservative".

That you think "US conservatives" are comparable to the Islamic State or Nazis illustrates this point.

"US conservatives" are not monolithic nor is there a "US conservative" handbook that states one must be "hard" and that "empathy is a vice". In fact organized religion, which is identified with conservatism in the US, is the recipient of $100 billion a year in philanthropy that goes towards food banks, youth outreach, education, arts etc.

"US conservatives" as a voting bloc is much more akin to a coalition of different interest groups and single issue voters. And one being conservative on one or more issues does not make them comparable to a Nazi or a Jihadist. You'll find "US conservatives" who are more progressive on some issues than others just as you'll find "US liberals" who can be more conservative on individual issues.

Saying that "US conservatives" are like the Sith is dumb and only shows that you don't actually understand politics in the United States.

>>53591250
> inherently evil as a gun

Hello Moms Demand Action

Or are you someone else who is mentally incapable of realizing inanimate objects cannot have a morality?

>>53609932
>"US conservatives" are not monolithic
Their voting pattern says otherwise. They will bitch and moan and wring their hands, but they will absolutely still pull the lever for their team.

And for the ones actually in the government, they will wring their hands about won't someone do something about all these terrible things we're hearing about from the white house while constitutionally being the ones that are supposed to do something about it, but they aren't because it's their team fucking it up and party before country.

Meanwhile the other side has 2352352 different splinter groups because clearly their specific issue is the most important issue.

>>53610001
>They will bitch and moan and wring their hands, but they will absolutely still pull the lever for their team.

You have literally just described party politics. And yet only a few years ago the "Tea Party" or as it is known now the "Freedom Caucus" caused a major shakeup of the Republican party.

You're also ignoring that there are conservative Democrats who vote party line.

And you're also ignoring that Democrats as a general rule also vote along party lines because that's what parties are for. They aggregate most issues that their voters identify with (to a certain extent), but not necessarily all of the issues nor is the party representative of every single individual voter. There are single issue voters who will vote Republican or Democrat because that party represents that one issue even if they are moderate on many other issues (gun control is a big one, many pro gun voters are single issue, and only about %60 of self identifying Democrats are pro gun control).

>Meanwhile the other side has 2352352 different splinter groups

You are, again, betraying your ignorance of US politics. Both parties have a core bloc which is surrounded by interest groups and single issue voters. It just so happens that most Republicans and Independents who identify as conservative on issues that are important enough to vote for actually go out and vote more often.

There are two sets of norms, duty based citizenship (tends to be "conservative") and engaged citizenship (tends to not be "conservative"). The former are people who tend to see voting as a duty of the citizen so they are more likely to vote in both presidential and mid term elections while the latter tend to show up for the presidential elections if they even do show up.
t. registered Democrat

>>53597342
Notice how no one has provided counterpoints to this

>>53610179
Because the EU is garbage and no longer even close to the rim of canonocity.


Non troll answer: because you're not wrong.

>>53609189
Don't forget get Ben's absolute" only sith deal in absolutes", which makes Yoda's "do, or do not. There is no try" another absolute.

>>53591127
>You are under arrest
>He resists
>They fight back and are slaughtered to a man
I don't see an assassination attempt there.

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>>53608418
all valued points,
doesn't stop it being fun to watch tho.

>>53591509
Timothy Zahn is actually a straight baller though don't talk shit.

>>53591607
Enlightenment is the realisation that there are no heroes and the pendulum has to swing back the other way because that's the nature of the Force.

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>nearly 150 posts an nobody mentions the jedi leading slave soldiers into battle to enforce space taxes on a group of traders who just wanted out of the corrupt and stagnant republic

>>53591537
>Karen "You fucking Selfish Jedi SS scum! How dare you defend yourself from these noble innocent clones who are only obeying their orders to slaughter you! I'm going to sacrifice my life to save them from you!" Travisty
>Better then Lucas
Okay I guess you might think that unironically if you haven't actually read her books and just buy into 'PREQUAL DA WORST MOVIES EVA, AM I RIGHT GUYS!!!' memes.

It's not that the Jedi are good or the Sith evil, it's that the midi-chlorians manipulated the two factions into fighting

>>53597342
The irony of your statement is that KoTOR as a series is all about those shades of grey, as established by Kreia. Nihilus is a force of nature, he's not evil, just possessed of a great hunger. He's as evil as a hungry wolf.

>>53610401
#1 post.

Everyone gets distracted by the inter-religous cult wars. No-one cares about crushing people walking away from the corruption with brainwashed storm troopers.

>>53602264
>>53602369
What we see of Luke in RoTJ points to him being a little darker than most of the Jedi we've seen on the screen before or since.

>>53610196
Wasn't even mine.

I just pointed it out because it contained the edgiest Darth ever.

>>53609189
They were good because they're the good guys in a fantasy fairy tale. And the "certain point of view" shit was George trying to retcon what Ben said in the first movie.
>>53608367
No, the original trilogy is NOT about "son redeeming father" because Vader WASN'T LUKE'S FATHER IN THE FIRST MOVIE. They didn't have a trilogy planned and didn't have an overarching story planned. They were just a bunch of talented people (And George) making simple space adventure movies until George tried (and failed) to do something more advanced with Jedi and the prequels.

>>53610497
He was a dark jedi

>>53597666
Are you saying that you can't appreciate the movies as an insurrection movement fighting against an imperialist empire? Why is that so?

>>53610521
At that point you're just flinging hot opinions at everyone that doesn't share your point of view.

>>53590612
>discriminate and Exterminate a religion simply due to believing the opposite of them.
A religion of edgy, power-hungry, often psychopathic assholes

>>53591047
Well, Qui-Gon was also the sort to ignore the rules as it suited him. Can't really have someone like that representing your council.

>>53600647
You left out the part where they were human supremacists.

>>53605597
>>53606844
He does have some good shit, but unless he has someone else to smack him upside the head and say "No, George, that's fucking stupid" occasionally, he goes a bit nuts and we end up with stuff like Jar Jar.

>>53610497
Allegory, son. He wore black throughout the movie, showing himself as a direct comparison to his father... only to turn around and do what his father couldn't when tempted - reject the power of the dark side.

A "Gray Jedi" (which, again, there is no such thing except in fanon and the worst parts of the EU and are thankfully noncanon) doesn't reject the power of the dark side, they use it.

The whole point of Luke's journey in RotJ is following in his father's steps, only to stop and make a different decision when tempted by the the Emperor.

>>53609728
>I don't know what the EU has to say regarding PT jedi activities.
Basically, during the early years of Valorum, things were going okay. There was a bit more bureaucracy than normal. Palpatine arrived, though, and things worsened. Valorum had to spend more and more political capital to actually get shit done, and by the time of TPM he'd been so completely mired down in red tape (thanks to Palpatine's manipulations, along with those of his master in the Banking Clan) that he was forced to send Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan secretly, because even that decision would have been put into a committee (by the Trade Federation or one of their allies).

After Palpatine became Chancellor, he made things work even worse, with the exception of him, so it looked like he was the ONLY person able to get shit done. The Jedi hands were tied because they are not supposed to interfere in the process of governance, the Republic funds them in exchange for their serving as ambassadors when it asks them to do something like go out on missions (but it has to ASK, they're advisors to the Chancellor who get a list of things the Republic would like, and they choose from that list). So most Jedi were getting sidelined or sidetracked by continually putting out fires all over the place, but never able to focus on the real problems.

They had faith in the Republic's system though, right up until the end. When they went to arrest Palpatine, they would have let the Senate decide. Mace switched to "he has to die" because he realised Sheev was never going to actually be convicted.

>>53610233
Yoda is telling Luke that to make him banish his self-doubt, Yoda believes Luke can do it and Luke doesn't believe he can. It's encouragement.

>>53601681
Well, considering that an army of a mere million clones is enough to put a fucking galaxy into dire financial straits I'd take a stab in the dark and guess that slave labor (or service by a sentient biological being in general) is insanely expensive.

I mean just look at the Queen of Naboo. She has less attendants than the CEO of a small company.

>>53614613
>army of a mere million clones

We don't know the size of the army. We do know it is far more than three million like Traviss tried to peg it at.

We DO know that editors stated that no number could or would be assigned to the size of the GAR. We DO know that the droid army outnumbered the clones 100 to 1.

We do know that the cost of the war (which is way more than just the buying of troops and armor, but also the supplies needed to feed, support, and transport them) was enough that it was bringing the Republic to its knees before Palpatine took control of the banks.

>>53591156

This.

>>53610497
But that is wrong

>>53612495
Hood thing

>>53610401
>>53610482
It's almost like the DINDU NUFFIN traders were fucking around occupying planets with droid armies and trying to assassinate senators or something.

>>53618259
False accusations

>>53610307
Jedi are not a police force. They don't have the authority to do this. This is the equivalent of the Kngihts Hospittaler trying to arrest and execute (cause that was the plan the Jedi had, only after he had been tried) a king who has been excommunicated. They have no right under Republic Law. At most they are military officers, nothing more.

>>53596027
Basically get a friend loser.

>>53590612
>Literally all problems that only come from extrapolating prequels and EU
that's why only the original trilogy is canon, then the setting works just fine.

>>53619069
Technically, they actually do have that authority, both as military commanders and as civilian law enforcement officers. It's not a huge part of what the Jedi can do, but it is fully within the bounds of their legal capabilities, and every-so-often Jedi will function as detectives working alongside actual police officers.

>>53608418
Isnt he diagnosed with autism?

I mean it would explain A LOT.

>>53619309
Yes, but they did it without any jurisdiction. Mace Windu decided to arrest him without telling any official body. A police detective needs to inform someone. Hell, if they had told some of the courts about their intentions, Palpatine might not have had such an easy takeover, since remnants of the rumors would have remained. After all, the CIS was associated with the Sith, due to Dooku.

>>53619449
And now you're seeing why it was such a complicated situation and why Mace ended up attempting to kill Palpatine - he owned the courts and the Senate. Had the Jedi told any judge that they were going to arrest Palpatine, not only would they have been laughed out of the courthouse, they'd probably set off some contingency that Palpatine has and whoops, there's Order 66 activated early.

>>53605597
The best stuff about the original trilogy was written by his exwife

>>53619317
No sadly

>>53620028
Really?

>>53618259
Amadala pls go.

>>53605522
For fucks sake, what is it with you warshitters and infecting every thread with your stupidity?

>>53624622
No its valid argument

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>>53608257
>I would love to see an interpretation of Star Wars where they AREN'T the good guys TBQH FAMILY.

His story until the whole "Sith blew up his ship and rebuilt him so he'd be on our side."

IIRC He was awarrior in a race that was enslaved. They overthrew the slaver race and ruled, but they were part of the republic so Jedi came and wiped them out. He escapes. His shuttle is blown up by ?Dooku? and they made him robot man to lead his army.

I think he started his jedi hunt before the sith thing? I can't remember too well. Not a huge fan.

>>53608453
I always called it Space Fantasy. It's more focused on weird magic shit, like fantasy, than scientific stuff like Sci-Fi things tend too

>>53626033
So jedi support slavery? Would explain the whole hutt thing

>>53594156
>samuel l jackson and lightsaber forms aren't canon

>>53591156
>Palpatine wasn't evil because he shot lightning out of his fingers
He kind of was.
To kill with the force in such a manner is literally hating people to death.

>>53628332
Palpatine was a good man force into a situation he did not want. The jedi forced his hand

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>>53590612
Lemme tell you about them thar white-hat cowboys.
>illegally drive cattle through native lands

>Discriminate against and try to exterminate other guys wearing darker hats than them

>Try to assassinate a sheriff appointed by the government due to him wearing a black hat, and if it wasn't for a vigilante group of patriots they would have created a democratic town

>Instead of trying to understand and overcome their prejudice for black-hat cowboys, they prefer to start gunfights, thereby creating an endless cycle of shooting

>They arrogantly assume their hats are cleaner than black ones

>If a white-hat so much as looks at a beige hat, they are branded as a black-hat and challenged to a stand-off

How are they the good cowboys? Honestly How?

>>53629167
White is pure

>>53610497
I'll say Mace Windu was the darkest by far.

>>53629544
Racist

>>53590612
>How are they the good guys? Honestly how?

Because they fight robots. Duh.

>>53629016
Sheev was a good boy who dindu nuffin', worshipped at the Sith shrine erry day!

>>53597342
Nihilus wasn't evil because of that power though.
That's like calling a lion evil for eating a deer.
He needed to be stopped sure, but he wasn't evil.
Also the wound in the force thing was not a direct result of him being seeped in the dark side, it was a result of being hit with the Mass Shadow Generator, a super weapon designed to kill all life on a planet, and surviving. His life force was crippled by the wound and his connection to the force allowed him to learn force drain to keep himself alive, but as a result he became a wound in the force because his life force is entirely reliant on draining others, but as a result the power of his force drain is basically a super weapon itself.
Other anon was right, he's not evil, he's a force of nature.

>>53629726
Lies

>>53630245
Howcdare you

>>53609983
Not him, but the whole point of him making that comparison is to say that it ISN'T inherently evil. At least that's what I got out of it.

>>53635967
How is that possible

>>53637635
Shadow mass generator

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Evil and cruelty are a choice, they not inherent in the Sith Culture and are absent from its code. Many Sith participate in evil or cruel acts because as the saying goes “Power corrupts.” The Sith offer the freedom to choose (even though most choose poorly) and focuses on strength and power (even though most choose to bully). The Sith understand that peace and negotiations are far from effective and sometimes harsh and violent action must be undertaken in order to succeed. Because kindness is almost always taken for weakness, and because bad people will always take advantage of those they view as weak. The Sith don’t just have power, they use it, and unutilized power or skill is wasted. While their counterparts the Jedi talk too much and act too little. The Jedi follow inflexible and often self harming rules, the Jedi are not agents of good but neutrality, and are far too biased to be even good at that.

>>53591221
As opposed to crushing someone to death against a wall with force push, an explicitly Jedi practice?

Is it "loving someone to death" when you throw them off a building with your mind, but somehow it's "hating them to death" when you electrocute them?

This shit is so fucking stupid.

>>53641728

The idea that Sith are "choosing," evil because of the freedom that power gives them but are also pushed toward evil and cruelty by power's inherently corruptive nature are contradictory statements, you're undermining your own premise.

The idea that violence is a necessary tool to accomplish goals because withholding it only invites exploitation is nonsense, because anyone who isn't evil would just tell you that preventing that attempted exploitation of kindness is the ACTUAL function of violence, which is why Jedi's are KNIGHTS and carry deadly laser swords. Unutilized power is not power wasted, it is power preserved for the moment it is actually needed rather than pointlessly thrust upon people for selfish gain. The Sith philosophy that power is the path to freedom is inherently evil because you are gaining your twisted vision of "freedom," by inflicting slavery on everyone weaker than yourself.

Also JEDI talk to much and act too little? Palpatine literally conquered the galaxy by doing nothing BUT talking. The idea that the Sith creedo is ACTION and forward momentum and evolution as opposed to stagnation represented by the Jedi is empty propaganda. The Sith creedo is one thing and one thing only: greed. Consumption. Treating the entire universe as a zero-sum game where the only way to win is to ensure everyone else looses.

Fuck the Sith and fuck the Dark Side.

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>>53642404
>Palpatine literally conquered the galaxy by doing nothing BUT talking.
>MFW The Darkside is the gift that keeps on giving.

>>53642890

Well, his talking did require a bunch of other people to do actions. Also that almost everyone in the universe in any position of authority would react to his moves in the dumbest way possible.

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>>53590612
>How are they the good guys? Honestly how?

Because we said so. Now hold still - Mouse Police are on their way to rectify your crimethink as we speak.

>>53642404
Let me rephrase. It's not that power corrupts, it's that it attractive to the corruptible. That's why a disproportionate amount of sith go on genocidal galaxy conquering episodes.

>>53643198
>Also that almost everyone in the universe in any position of authority would react to his moves in the dumbest way possible.
Dark-side leads to Corruption, the Light-side leads to Stagnation

>>53642404
>The Sith creedo is one thing and one thing only: greed. Consumption. Treating the entire universe as a zero-sum game where the only way to win is to ensure everyone else looses.
Only if you take it to its logical extreme. Most didn't back when they were an empire and not just two people looking specifically for people with psychotic tendencies.

>>53643230
What is disney doing with Starwars anyways?

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>>53645431
Owning it.

>>53590612
>Separates children from their parents
with permission from the parents

>Discriminate and Exterminate a religion simply due to believing the opposite of them
Ignores the fact that the Sith are murder-happy faggots who start shit literally every single time

>Try to assassinate a chancellor of a democratically elected republic
They tried to kill him because he was also the leader of the faction they were at war with and intentionally undermining the Republic they were loyal to

>They prefer to shut it down
It's canon that Jedi are encouraged to feel, just not give in to passion. Anakin being a brooding emotionless edgelord does not mean it's standard. Obi-Wan was very emotive and considered to be an ideal Jedi.

>Arrogantly assume their side is stronger than the Dark
No, just smarter. Dark side users literally cannot go a single generation without murdering each other, it's literally in their nature.

>If a member of their order even so much has an independent thought they are branded as evil
Qui-Gon pretty much ignored the Council's authority and he was never branded as evil, but he didn't really follow rules either so they didn't want him on the Council as a result. That's not being "branded as evil."

>>53594876
>Separating Anakin from the nurturing environment provided by his mother
Yes because being a literal slave with nothing to either of their names was so nurturing. Let's not forget that the only real reason Anakin fell to the Dark Side was because Palpatine was corrupting him for something like two decades.

>>53645553
More like twelve years. Phantom Menace is 32 BBY, Attack of the Clones is 22 BBY, and Revenge of the Sith is 20 BBY.

>>53645591
Close enough. He started corrupting Anakin during his most vulnerable years and well into adulthood.

>>53602369
I knew this thread was cancer and I'm a fucking retard for going into it. That being said

Fucking hell the gray vegetarian meme is awful. Yes, anyone using the term grey jedi to get force lighting without getting the sith crazy eyes should be slapped but fucking hell, most americans are generally christians but do we all follow the bible like it's the literal word of god? No because that would be fucking retarded. Most won't even go to church every sunday, just on easter and christmas. We adapt our faith to the modern times.

Hardline jedi are fucking dumb like paladins with a shitty GM, "Oh you looked at that big blue chriss ass in a thong. You fall and shit is fucked"

Maybe the word gray has too much hang ups for most people so maybe we need a new term, moderate jedi?

>>53605522
Kek.

>>53590612
>>Whenever they is a dark slide user, they attack them and kills them
That's like saying, whenever they find a serial killer, they attack and kill them.

>>53590717
What, the leadership didn't select someone with an opposite political view to join their leadership council. They must be corrupt. After all didn't Trump ask Hillary to be on his cabinet? Oh he didn't? Did he.

>>53591200
Hey at least he lasted more than five seconds

>>53647154
You lost the election. Let it go

>>53597342
To be fair, the same power that animated Nihilus as a force of hunger also enabled the Exile to be the Big Good and not only stop Nihilus, but generally make things not shit for everyone else.

>>53648930
I mean, sort of? They had the same condition but Nihilus steeped himself in the Dark Side and embraced it so deeply he essentially just became living hunger. It may not necessarily be capital E Evil but even a Light Side Exile had the potential to destroy the Force utterly.

>>53648954
Both kreia and the jedi exile had the potential to kill the force if either one of them died on malachor due to the force bond between them

>>53648976
Kreia's death only mattered in that it could kill the Exile, and as a result of the Exile's death specifically, the Force itself could die under the right conditions. That's why nothing happens when she's defeated by you and allows herself to die alone.

Regardless, a Light Side Exile has the same condition as Nihilus, but only a Dark Side Exile learns the same hunger. The Dark Side basically rips the wound open into a yawning abyss that eventually devours the Force user themselves. The Dark Side is explicitly Capital E Evil. Life after death for Dark Side users is an agonizing, lonely, maddening hell.

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>>53649016
>MFW you will never free the galaxy of the force and force users.

>>53590612
>seperates
You couldn't finish one fucking word without shitposting.

>>53649082
Its true though

>>53590612

Palpatine wasn't the democratically-elected leader. Palpatine ousted the democratically-elected leader via a civil war he engineered, then took over by using power blocs in the republic.

The Jedi went to arrest him, he fought, they fought back.

I know that doesn't fit your narrative, but try and stick to what actually happened, it makes you look less like a moron.

>>53619069
If Knights Hospitalers had captured Saladin and found he was Richard the Lion-Hearted in disguise, leading both sides of the war to gain power, would anyone fault them for executing the traitor then and there?

>>53614370
>Mace switched to "he has to die" because he realised Sheev was never going to actually be convicted.
Mace turned murderous because he used the Dark Side in combat, and this time he drank too deeply.
He never mastered the Dark Side, because nobody can. He simply deluded himself into thinking he could, because he was a special snowflake Jedi who liked being edgy and special. He lost control as soon as he met an actually equal opponent he had to go all out to defeat. And then, because that enemy knew how to use the dark power and Mace didn't, he got used and killed.

Seriously, _look_ at Mace. Intentionally or not, he's the poster boy for all the edgy "my inner darkness is a weapon for the light" characters, in Star Wars or anywhere.

>>53591533
>humans supposedly stronger and smarter than ants
>Kill their planet in the end
Human fags can NOT defend this

>>53609932
>It has relevance to what you think US conservatives are via media representation and lack of actual experience living in the United States and interacting with US citizens who may self identify as "Conservative".
That's an odd concern, seeing how we're interacting right now yet you aren't certain if I'm physically located in the US.

>That you think "US conservatives" are comparable to the Islamic State or Nazis illustrates this point.
Not "comparable" but the exact same thing with different targets and some decorations switched around.

>"US conservatives" are not monolithic nor is there a "US conservative" handbook that states one must be "hard" and that "empathy is a vice".
"Bleeding heart liberal."
"Bleeding heart conservative."
Which of these is used in the wild? What is the barb supposed to be?

>In fact organized religion, which is identified with conservatism in the US, is the recipient of $100 billion a year in philanthropy that goes towards food banks, youth outreach, education, arts etc.
Using tax deductible donations to effectively transfer tax money to your cult's coffers is a very clever way to get around the separation of church and state. Palpatine would be proud.

But speaking of food banks, isn't your conservative-elected president planning to cut food aid for the elderly? Thankfully, his attempt to cut medicine for the poor encountered some setbacks.

>>53653282
Gobal warming isn't real

>>53653282
>Kill the planet
Nah, the planet might change but it will still be there, we won't

Space 2020: Lets shit on the table and run before we have to pay the bill

>>53655431
[citation needed]

>>53590612
>How are they the good guys? Honestly how?
Because the original trilogy was written and directed by a man with good ideas supported by competent people who knew how to shut down his full retard ideas, while the prequels were written and directed by a man with good ideas and a team of yesmen.

Just let this fucking franchise die. It's now official: Star Wars currently has more bad movies attached to its name than good movies. The biggest problem with Star Wars are the fans who just can't fucking let it die.

>>53656020
I find your math questionable.

>>53656108
>Good
-A New Hope
-The Empire Strikes Back
-Return of the Jedi

>Bad
-The Phantom Menace
-Attack of the Clones
-Revenge of the Sith
-The Force Awakens

>Inb4 "b-but The Force Awakens is actually kinda good"
Only because it so heavily recycles nostalgic plotpoints from the original trilogy that it could easily have been marketed as a remake.

>>53656236
So are you only counting the mainline Episode movies then? There's a distinct lack of Rogue One on your list, and if you think it sucks you should remove yourself from the genepool, in a murder suicide if you already made babies with someone.

>>53590612
>They try to assassinate a chancellor of a democratically elected republic due to being a sith
Palpatine was the Sith lord that the Jedi knew was leading the war against the Republic, he was a traitor and Jedi do have the authority to carry out arrests on behalf of the Senate.

>>53656383
>>53656383
Palpatine is the senate.

>>53657600
Not yet.

>>53657682
It's treason then?

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>>53658763

>>53658794
Wasn't there a WebM one?

>>53656236
What about Rogue one

>>53662273
Why does that lightsaber have a sheath? Did some weeb faggot decide they needed a lightkatana for their donut steel?

>>53662638
Jedi are samurai

>>53590612
Not to mention they can brainwash/control minds.
Old One Kenobi said it only works on the weak minded, but Darth Vader himself ordered a detachement of troops to search tatooine. Do you really think the empire would send nitwits to complete the personal orders of the second in command of the entire empire? And unless I'm mistaken, obi wan mind "tricked" a squad leader of that unit. And Kenobi wasn't even the strongest jedi by a long shot. Who's to say they never "mind tricked" people into voting for them? In fact, I don't recall seeing any elections in the so called republic during all six movies. "Chancellor" Amidagala is actually royalty. Most of the members of the senate are wizards with the capability to control minds. Does a shadowy cabal of mind-controlling wizards who run a galactic state sound like good guys to you? Also Anakin successfully brought almost total balance to the force. Once he died there was zero sith and only one "jedi" who didn't really buy into any of the bullshit philosophy the old jedi council were selling. He brought balance by setting the scale back to zero. Which is great, because nobody should be able to "mind trick" anybody.

>>53590612
hot take my dude

>>53590612
-t, Sheev

>>53666457
I mean he brought peace to his new empire

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>>53590612
>Incoherent shouting bout Taoism

>>53665103
>Who's to say they never "mind tricked" people into voting for them?
Jedi are not an elected position

>Most of the members of the senate are wizards with the capability to control minds.
I must have missed the part where we ever get information on more than like 3 members of the senate

>>53668160
forgot one

>>53665103
On her home planet, Amidala was royalty. In the senate, I don't recall if she was ever a chancellor, but she was at least a senator for a while before she decided to replace herself with jarjar.

>>53668502
>replace herself with jarjar.
Truly one of Palpatine's most evil acts in the series

>>53656317
>>53661780

>Good things about Rogue One

Anything not having to do with the two main characters

>Shit things about Rogue One

Ms "Im a rebel, I rebel xD" and her generic boo

>>53591159
>Arrest him
Under what authority ?

>>53591156
this

>>53669610
That's a rather negative view of a pretty great film. I personally thought I wouldn't be able to care about the main characters at all because it was obvious they were going to die but the movie pulled it off anyway. But you probably just get super edgy and defensive whenever love is invoked I guess..

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>>53669493
>>replace herself with jar jar.
>Truly one of mesa's most evvvvviiiil acts in da series.
Fixed it.

>>53591006
The jedi aren't a perfectly designed fictional group by any stretch, but moral relativism is still cancer.

The sith are bad and worse than the jedi in just about every way, morally speaking.

>>53669610
>"Im a rebel, I rebel
Did she even say this in the actual movie?

Like, it was all played up in the trailers but I'm not sure she actually says it. A lot of things changed from the trailers [spoilers]and it was great[/spoilers]

>>53670220
I love the robot, the monk, and the monk's warrior buddy.

I absolutely hated the main character and her generic, blank slate pilot love interest.

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They are only if you view complete dedication to the whole at the determent of the self, and forcing anyone else who uses the force to do the same as "good".

>>53669871
The authority granted to them by the senate. Or did you think that ambassadors and generals and whatever else the republic uses them for have no authority?

>>53670889
>generic, blank slate
I suppose that's one way to describe a man that's gone deep enough in with the rebellion to shoot one of his own in the back to keep the imperials from figuring out they know about the death star.

Not a particularly accurate way, but nobody's perfect

>love interest
I realize you're a basement dweller, but if it was supposed to be a romance there would have been more than just a hug at the end.

Do you know what ruined Star wars?

Star wars is a children's franchise. You have the space adventurers and you have the bad guys. They fight each other because it's cool to see stuff fight in space. You have the black knight and his master being evil and then the team of unlikely heroes who come together to fight him. Beyond that you have nothing, nothing bigger or smaller just a small self enclosed sci fi adventure.

Then autism got hold of it and now it's so broad and complex that no one can see what Star wars even is any more. Star wars in it's current state is like taking a car from the 1930s then attacking all the modern gizmos to it. It's completely lost any meaning or purpose but DUDE PURPLE LIGHT SABERS

>>53670673
Sith are good

>>53675196
Dude double bladed lightsaber

>>53674763
Palpatine is the senate

>>53679679
We've already been over that with >>53657682

>>53679740
You speak of treason

>>53648882
Way to miss the point. Qui-gon is the political oposition of the Jedi counsel, it is not coruption to leave him off the counsel, it's the way the leadership of every organization ever has run.

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Imagine, for a moment, that you live in a world where a tiny minority of people--say, one in a million--are born with superpowers. Telepathy, telekinesis, and all the various miscellaneous powers that go along with them. What exactly do you do with these people to ensure societal stability?

Obviously killing them in the cradle is out of the question. Aside from being the most mustache-twirlingly evil thing possible, you'd have an insurrection on your hands before long. Do nothing? Congratulations, you now have superpowered, angst-ridden teenagers all over the galaxy murdering people in fits of rage every time their parents ground them.

The Jedi order, for all its faults (and there are many), is the best possible solution.

Pic related.

>>53667356
to his new empire?

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>>53681384
>The Sith order, for all its faults (and there are many), is the best possible solution.
FTFY

>>53594366
It does, both Plo-koon And Luke used the Non-darkside version of it in Legends continuity. it requires being far more in touch with the force than most Jedi can achieve. Yoda never used it because he preferred more subtle uses but it's very likely that he could use it.

>>53630446
He was evil because he was conscious in his hunger, he chose to delve that far, he wasn't mindlessly killing everything he saw, he was consciously and actively seeking out Jedi to kill, and even took an apprentice from the world that you mention he killed. He was nothing more than a man, a very evil man, but a man nonetheless.

>>53686245
Are you forgetting the part where kreia states he is no longer in control of his actions and no longer human?

>>53687342
Kreia is a confirmed liar, I trust nothing she says and if truly he had no mind, he wouldn't have let either her or Sion live, and he wouldn't have taken an apprentice.

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>>53687735
>Kreia is a confirmed liar, I trust nothing she says and if truly he had no mind, he wouldn't have let either she or Sion live, and he wouldn't have taken an apprentice.

Except for everything she said about Sion and nihilus turned out to be true.

Nihilus did try to kill Kreia and Sion at different points. Hell, he did kill Sion, it was a cut content nonetheless, but due to Sion ability to come back from the dead, it was a moot point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IobIhctxRXg

Kreia Theorize was little good or Humanity he had left he spent it on saving and recruiting the "Blind Seer" although even she is perplexed by his actions.

>>53687951
Cut Content is not Canon to Legends, your argument has no merit. As far as I'm aware he only attempted to kill Kreia once, he wasn't strong enough to do so alone either, he had Sions help. The game as shipped unmodded even to add content cut back in, and as recorded in Legends continuity, he never attempted to drain or kill either Kreia or Sion after he and Sion, apparently just beat her ass and put her on a ship.

>>53675196

This "Star wars is kid shit," thing is bogus. People who think even the original movies were nothing but simplistic children's entertainment have obviously never watched an episode of Care Bears or some other shit that was actually intended to be children's entertainment.

Star Wars didn't change the entire zeitgeist's view of Science Fiction by being a small self-enclosed adventure with nothing beneath the surface fluff of space battles and bad guys being bad so the good guys can punch them. Its an elemental story with an essence of mythology and serious gravitas, further enhanced by a musical score, visual design and actor performances that only enhance those elements. Saying Star Wars is simple kiddy fare is like saying that about the tales of Hercules or King Arthur.

>>53645553
You don't know what nurturing means, do you?

>>53687951
>Except for everything she said about Sion and nihilus turned out to be true.
Well yeah, a good liar knows that you need to include some truth to make the lies believable. Kreia is literally the sith lord of betrayal, stop taking her words at face value.

>>53681384
Imagine, for a moment, that you live in a galaxy where the sheer disparity of powers between different species (like toydarians being able to fly, zeltrons seducing everthing, and ithorians sonic blasting concrete roads away) makes that completely irrelevant.

>>53686245
>consciously and actively seeking
That's your interpretation.
Visas says that he doesn't see life at the individual level, and only whole biospheres get his attention now.

>>53688406
Him sparing her disagrees with you, as does his seeking out of the Exile to destroy her specifically. Also, Visas only knows what he told her, and what she believes, remember that she thinks you'll lose right up until the moment you kill him, and the Sith are not known for telling or teaching their apprentices everything that they know, are they?

>>53688368
Don't forget the jedi and atris

>>53649016
I thought both the exile and nihilus had the same hunger but the only difference between them was that the exile fed on it on a subconscious level

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>>53681384
>>53684761
>The NEW Jedi order, for all its faults (and there are many), is the best possible solution.
Wow, we shouldn't be emotionless monks or madmen consumed by lust for power?

>>53645023
Trying to out-do the prequels in ruining the franchise.

>>53646345
Reformed Jedi? Lapsed Jedi? Latter-Day Jedi?

>>53688406
>clumsy flight
>on par with the fucking Force

gr8 b8 m8

>>53690276
The exile didn't feed on the hunger, she was a Jedi in the purest sense of the title.; Kreia was lying and trying to manipulate her the entire time they were bonded, and failed. Note that there is the possibility that she was not cut off from the force as was assumed she was still alive, one cannot live without the force. She just chose to break her active connection, she still had the force with her and carried around the death and destruction she witnessed with her everywhere, but she obviously still had access to the Midi-chlorians.

>>53690276
Yes

>>53591075
>nearly evil

Nah, what they did on Kalee was full evil (same with Galidraan). It may have happened because of ignorance and misinformation, but, still, what they did was wrong

>>53590612
This is why Star Trek is better

>>53698186
Really? Neither is better and this is coming from a fan of both, they are totally different concepts.

>>53698234
Lies

>>53699653
Not lies, truth.

>>53655507
>Liberal

>>53590612
>They try to assassinate a chancellor of a democratically elected republic due to being a sith, and if it wasn't for a proud patriot they would have created a theocracy.

This is the big red flag to me. Purely because they suspect the democratic head of a country is a member of another religion, they try to assassinate him. Religious persecution is never justifiable.

>>53701879
It wasn't about him being a Sith, it was about him betraying the republic, he was a traitor.

>>53701990
What had he done at that point, that they could verify? Why did they send an assassination squad, instead of a police force?

>>53702024
They didn't send an assassination squad. They sent Jedi, which ARE police. Any other police could be on his payroll, hell the only other police officers we see in TCW are clones, so they ARE on his payroll.

>>53702024
Dooku was a Sith Lord, they knew he was the apprentice, so when another Sith is revealed, he must be the master and the true orchestrator of events as Dooku told them in EP.II, and because of the Rule of Two, which the Jedi knew of. Also, Anakin had heard Palpatine directly say that he was the Dark Lord of The Sith, and was Dooku's Master. Mace and the other Masters did not go to kill him, they went to arrest him as they are police officers as well as monks and knights. He attacked first and killed all but Mace, who had him at his mercy and had decided rightly so that he was too fucking dangerous to be left alive, then Anakin got all fucking passionate and emotional about Padme dying in childbirth not understanding that this is the moment that would cement it as truth and make it unavoidable and killed Mace, dooming Democracy and The Republic, and The Force for roughly 25 years.

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>>53702125
>>53702329
>They didn't send an assassination squad.
>They just sent four of their best members of their Orders on a frail old man on the behest of an emotionally wreck adolescent who is on the verge of a mental breakdown.

>>53702329
>who had him at his mercy and had decided rightly so that he was too fucking dangerous to be left alive

So when he had the enemy detained and in custody, the jedi decided to conduct an extrajudicial killing, because of silly superstitious beliefs.

>dooming Democracy and The Republic, and The Force for roughly 25 years.
Remember, this is the same democracy that allowed slavery. The empire outlawed it. Which is better?

>>53702386
The Republic had outlawed slavery too, you know. But they didn't stop the Hutts or the Zygerrians from having slaves, because they didn't have the power to fight a war like that.

And the Empire used slaves to build all sorts of big projects. The Wookiees, the Mon Calamari, the Bo'dachi.

>>53702436
>And the Empire used slaves to build all sorts of big projects. The Wookiees, the Mon Calamari, the Bo'dachi.

Isn't that noncanon legends material? As far as I can tell, slavery existed on tatooine before the empire, and doesn't by the time of the empire.

>>53702514
Still canon. Wookiee slaves were featured in one of the first episodes of Rebels.

The Bo'dachi were named as having been enslaved entirely, even the young and the elderly, and made to work in mines; that's from Lost Stars.

We don't get any indication of slavery on Tatooine outside of what we see in the prequels, but the dancing girls in Jabba's palace are absolutely slaves.

Tatooine is also not under the jurisdiction of the Empire, it's a Hutt world.

The Wook doesn't name a source, but it does say that Mon Calamari slaves are still canon. I can't remember anything off the top of my head, but I haven't read or watched a decent portion of the new canon yet.

>>53702366
Palpatine was not very old at best in his late 40's at the time of the prequels the actor portraying him was much older, and as he showed he was not frail, and killed three Jedi masters with ease with NO provocation.
>>53702386
Not because of his beliefs because the above killing three Jedi without provocation, when they had just come to detain him and await a trial mace didn't want to kill him until after the three murders and a Lightning Spray later, and because he had openly fucking admitted that he was behind the war.
>>53702514
Tatooine is in Hutt Space not Republic space, Republic laws do not apply. The Empire didn't interfere either or did you think Jabba's slave whores were free people? And isn't it shown in ep.3 that clone troopers were capturing Wookies for use as slaves as Yoda flees?

>>53702594
Palpatine was most definitely not in his forties when he was Chancellor. I don't know where you got that idea, because he's always been depicted in all media as being in his mid-sixties through the events of the latter two prequels.

>>53702637
Still not frail, I don't know where either, but it's worth mentioning that force users even Sith have longer natural lives than normal examples of their species so his age is immaterial.

>>53698186
>Not Star Gate
baka

>>53706085
Huh, didn't know /tg/ did that.