>short rests take 1 hour Why did 5e do this? Doesn't

>>53482105
Because 5e is a dumpster fire.

>>53482105
>How often are you really going to be in a situation where you can relax for an hour in the middle of an adventure, but you can't relax for the full 8 hours for a long rest?
Pretty often actually.

>>53482105
Because if short rests stayed at 5 minutes--how they were originally--anything linked to short rests would be all-but-explicitly and Encounter power, and the 3aboos 5e was supposed to draw back into the fold would have REEEEE'd and run back to Pathfinder.

>>53482270
they already reeeee'd when martials got mastery dice for free.

Because if you're martial and not full attacking... It's not true D&D.

Short rests was a fucking mistake which removed one the prime elements of strategy from the game.

>>53482314
>Strategy
Which edition?
>3e
You mean "caster is empty let's take a naptime or pray the DM is lenient since we're one guy down as the caster is a wizard and not a priest or a druid who can be a shitty fighter"
>4e
>Implying short rests aren't discount encounter powers and this edition being the only edition that was tactically oriented
>AD&D
Fluff the fluffening fluff? Strategy?

Let's not forget that martial fight is basically full attack spam because anything else is a waste of time.

>>53482105
Eh, my group just counts them as 30 minutes.

>>53482314
How so? I think rest based resources are stupid and take away from immersion but I don't see how the ability to twirl one's sword in a special way exactly four times per hour takes away from strategy.

>>53482105
Then use the Epic Heroism variant where short rests are 5 minutes and long rests are an hour.
Or use the Gritty Realism variant where short rests are 8 hours and long rests are 7 days.

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>>53482650
>long rests are an hour
t. wizardfag

So use the variant rule that lets short rests take 5 minutes. Fluff it as catching your breath, drinking some water, shaking out your muscles and clearing your head.
Note that it'll make fighters mighty as fuck though.

Play with the long rests variant rule (short over night, long a week).

It winds up making more sense as you cant just stop in the middle of a dungeon at all. We usually say 3-4 days instead of a week and it works out awesome. Don't have a warlock or any other classes super reliant on short rests, though.

>>53482789
>I want my game to be boring as fuck because nobody will ever have their powers for 90% of the campaign.

Thank fuck I don't play with you.

>>53482845

No, it just means you can't face tank the first batch of mooks you find and burn all your spells to heal up from after it.
Resource management becomes important.

>>53482105
Usually it's not that hard to find a room in a dungeon to bar off and rest in, and during a short rest all participants remain alert.
If you don't have 4 people to keep watch, a long rest will have a period when nobody is alert. Even with 4 people, there will only be one person alert at a time, which means only one perception score to fail for an ambush.
Getting your long rest interrupted 7 hours in is catastrophic. Getting your short rest interrupted 40 minutes in isn't.
Short rests can easily be facilitated with the 2nd level spell Rope Trick.
Long rests require at least a larger zone and the 3rd level spell Leomund's Tiny Hut.

> How often are you really going to be in a situation where you can relax for an hour in the middle of an adventure, but you can't relax for the full 8 hours for a long rest?

Assuming your dungeon design isn't shit, pretty often. When was the last time you checked all your closets? Expand that to a larger building, say a school. How many rooms aren't used for one period, but another? Or an office, meeting rooms aren't used 24/7.

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>>53482947
You don't think the dungeon inhabitants are going to use that 1 hour to investigate and organize themselves?

>>53482105
Deadlines. Just because you are physically safe to take an 8 hour doesn't mean you can do it twice a day and still get where you need to within the week, which is when the mad king will complete his ritual.

>>53482354
also, yeah, this.

>>53482789
>>53482845
>>53482887
The reason to use the gritty rest variant is so you can spread encounters out while having them matter instead of needing to bunch them all up at once.

In 5e, you're supposed to have 6-9 encounters a day by the guidelines. That means you'd need all of those in the dungeon.

If you use gritty rests, you could instead have 1 encounter per day as the group travels to the dungeon for a total of 3 or 4, and then have another 3 or 4 encounters within the dungeon itself.

>>53482990
Sure, but that's a consequence of taking rests in general. A long rest risks the arrival of enemy reinforcements into the dungeon or, if they've been alerted to the powerful infiltrators who have now paused in their onslaught, simply taking everything of value and escaping.

>>53482978
>>53482990
A 1 hour rest is generally much less risky than a full 8 hour one, to be certain. Even if you end up having to retreat outside the dungeon for the rest, the enemies will still only have an hour to realize what happened, figure out where you went, and then set up a defense around that.

30 minutes of planning is a lot less than 7 hours of it.

>>53482105
>are you ever going to be in a position that allows a lunch break and not a full night's rest in the middle of the day?

>>53482298
but mastery dice are added on top of the full attacking! That's what makes them great! It's both classic basicattackspam AND tactical options.

>>53483094
>Adventure Joe, after dislodging his axe from the 30th goblin's head, looks at his watch to see that it is lunchtime
>Adventure Joe clocks out on the time recorder and hops in his Adventure Van to head to the nearby Kobold BurgersTM
>Adventure Joe enjoys a piping hot burger, fries, and soda while chatting up some friends and coworkers who are also spending their lunch breaks in Kobold BurgersTM
>Adventure Joe notes that his hour his almost up, so he hops back in the Adventure Van and returns to the dungeon
>Adventure Joe clocks back in and kills 30 more goblins with his Adventure Axe, who have neither fled nor set up deadly fortifications in preparation for his arrival

how it actually happens
>Joe: i used up all my battlemaster resources in that fight and i'm almost dead can we take a short rest
>Party: no that's retarded, we can't stop for an entire hour when there are enemies left, we'll just use healing magic on you and continue
>Joe: what if there aren't any monsters left?
>Party: then there's no reason to stop for an entire hour
>Joe: okay
Joe does not get any of his fighter resources back until the party finishes the dungeon and returns to town for a long rest. He ends up looking like a pathetic excuse for a martial in comparison to the paladin of the party for the entire campaign.

>>53482650
>taking only 5 minutes to catch your breath is "epic heroism"
>taking 8 full hours to catch a rest is "gritty realism"
5e is fucking retarded.

>>53482704
I mean, if you're truly doing epic heroism, then every major fight should require most of your health and all of your spells. A knockdown, dragout match between PL15 demigods. Late game shounen stuff.

>>53482887
Warlocks have two spells per short rest.

Two spells a day until 16th is not a reasonable number to work with.

>>53482947
Don't forget that leomunds is a ritual. If you have 10m of dead air, you can have guaranteed safety for 8 hours for no spell slot cost, barring high level anti-magic.

>>53482298

>they already reeeee'd when martials got mastery dice for free.

You're a bit confused -- there was never a time when the fighter got martial dice that did anything like the battlemaster did now, they only got very half assed, crippled versions of feats.

>>53483800
Go get stabbed in the gut like four times then come back in 8 hours ready for another four and tell me it isn't the bare minimum of gritty realism.

>>53483958

I think he's talking about the playtest, where every fighter got martial dice that refreshed every single round, by default.

It was a fucking awesome idea that they crippled before it could really come into its own, with the Battlemaster being a somewhat pathetic shadow of its potential.

>>53483987
"Meat points" are automatically retarded and not conductive to a RPG where combat is a normal occurrence, unless hit chances are very different.

A week vs a day isn't going to change a stab in the gut. Your character is simply over, barring magic.

>>53483780
"hey guys, were out of ammo and badly wounded we need to fall back and regroup."

I don't see why this is unreasonable.

>>53484016
Or there's latent magic in the air, and all native all biology has evolved to take advantage of that fact, some for special abilities or supernaturally enhanced growth, but nearly all of them for quicker regeneration due to the dangerous nature of such a world.

>>53484007
>I think he's talking about the playtest, where every fighter got martial dice that refreshed every single round, by default.

I am talking about the playtest, in which fighters got vastly more complicated, but weaker, versions of stuff that is still available in feat or class feature form. Its an "awesome idea" but worse in all ways than the finished product -- important to remember.

>with the Battlemaster being a somewhat pathetic shadow of its potential.

The problem is that people think "oh, wait, they got dice that REFRESH EVERRRRYY ROUND??! I shall assume that those dice did things that are equal in power to the Battlemaster as he is now -- without ever reading the playtest!"

Shit was rancidly abhorrent.

>>53484079
Sure, but that sort of pure goofiness isn't really relevant to D&D or that which is thought of in the fantasy genre, and certainly doesn't fit into any "heroism" or "grittiness" spectrum (unless you catch cancer or something)

>>53484079
God this. I always tell people this when they point out that they're healing pretty quick for a "Relatively lower fantasy" 5e. It's just not as common for people to know magic but it's still fucking everywhere.

>>53484098

Care to explain? I was quite involved in the playtests but gave up on 5e as they slowly drained all the good ideas out of it, and from everything I'd heard all the Battlemaster got was less of the same stuff. I've not heard any indication up till now that they were somehow improved.

>>53482789
Well if you play a resort management game, do you scale everything else around? Cause the CR system, though fuck as it is, has an assumed preset allowance for spells and other resources spent on said encounter. Or you just retarded and can't figure how to balance casters so REEEE caster supremacy.

>>53484021
It's unreasonable because it takes an entire hour, the spellcasters (the majority of classes) are long rest dependent anyway, and sources of healing are often available.

>>53484190
You can draw an arrow from the crappy shit they got in the playtest to its feat or class feature equivalent.

>from everything I'd heard

There's your problem. The idea that the playtest fighter was better is based off faith, and the confusion of "battlemaster have dice, old fighter have dice... must be the same thing."

>>53484193

>you just retarded and can't figure how to balance casters so REEEE caster supremacy.
>What is the utility gap?

>>53484273
Let (full) casters have utility, they sure don't have much else going for them. So much butthurt wailing from theorycrafters, so few playing them in actual practice.

>>53484272

But can you explain it?

The playtest fighter was designed to present the player with interesting tactical choices every round, to make meaningful decisions a standard part of combat.

Meanwhile, the Battlemaster has a relatively limited supply of that which seems to significantly reduce the amount of such decisionmaking that you can really make as a martial.

This has always been the hidden issue with Martials, in my experience. In 3.PF, it was easy to miss because of how inferior they were, but in 5e despite being mechanically on par in combat terms, they're just so fucking boring to play in comparison.

The whole 'you just need to improvise' thing isn't a relevant comment or somehow a 'fix', as it can be equally applied to every class and therefore does nothing to improve the position of martials overall in terms of actually having interesting options.

>>53484327
>Boss, kitchen says we don't have enough monster fish for the dinner tonight!

>>53484148
>pure goofiness
>>53484153
For an anti-magic field to be "weird" that means that literally everywhere else IS a magic field.

And it'd be stupid for life forms to not take advantage of that if they can. The only things on Earth that don't derive at least some direct benefit from the Sun are things that just never get sunlight entirely.

And we have proof that nearly every species has taken advantage of it in some way. If it doesn't have spell-like abilities, then it went Dire and supports way more weight than its frame should because of cubic scaling, or started levitating, or generates elemental energies, or formed a hivemind.
For one of the first things for life to have figured out (ergo the most widespread) to be something directly related to metabolic processes, that's not even farfetched. It's what you'd expect to see.
For some species, like trolls, to specialize in this regeneration, is akin to the same we see in starfish in our own world, regenerating limbs to entire halves when all humans can do is seal wounds and grow back some liver.

OP is probably baiting but since I haven't seen anyone mention it yet.

YOU CAN'T BENEFIT FROM MORE THAN ONE LONG REST IN A 24 HOUR PERIOD. All caps since everyone forgets that. That 8 hour rest is actually an 18 hour one since it is the middle of the day when you try to long rest. This is presuming the initial argument that 'if you can rest for 1 hour you can rest for 8' isn't retarded as well. It is easier to hide for 1 hour than 8 hours. Hide in a pantry for an hour might work out, eight hours? Doubt it.

1 hour requires an eighth of the random encounter checks than 8 hours. It means the adventures waste an eighth of the time getting to their objective.

>>53484311
>The playtest fighter was designed to present the player with interesting tactical choices every round, to make meaningful decisions a standard part of combat.

That may have been the intent, but you get more functionality with less hassle now. Not to mention that the battlemaster's abilities are fucking awe inspiring compared to the garbage that the playtest fighter got.

Though I will certainly admit that *player characters* in general deal less damage, at least low levels, than during the playtest. A paladin can't explode a vampire at level 1 anymore (they had vulnerability to radiant, and could put out a lot more damage).

>The whole 'you just need to improvise' thing

Don't know what this refers to. Martial superiority dice just gave you access to tiny, horrendously worded slivers of what are now full, much better feats or class abilities.

>>53484311
And yes, when I get back from dinner I will see if I can put a detailed example to dispel this fuckin retarded meme that martials lost anything of value -- other than that PCs did a gazillion more points of damage in general, but that has nothing to do with fighters in particular.

>>53482105
Given the benefits of a short rest, having them happen faster would be potentially unbalancing.

However, given when you actually need to use them, having them actually *take* an hour is often unworkable.

The smart money is on 5 minute breaks, not benefiting more than once per hour.

>>53484311
I don't have a copy on my laptop, but from what I recall of the version that I'm familiar with (so until I or someone else can get to a copy, take it with a grain or two of salt) the primary options are:
they could trip/shove (which now anyone can do as an Attack action);
make a more accurate attack;
make a more damaging attack;
or, make additional normal attacks, as this was before that was a 'free' feature.
Again, these are more off the top of my head. I can share a copy in about 25 minutes when I'll be back home, if there are still people interested. IIRC there are also copies of each playtest in the /5eg/ directory.

>>53484098
>I am talking about the playtest, in which fighters got vastly more complicated, but weaker, versions of stuff that is still available in feat or class feature form. Its an "awesome idea" but worse in all ways than the finished product -- important to remember.
THANK YOU. People always overstate how well they actually worked in execution.
It's a very cool idea on paper, but part of the reason they were dropped is because minmaxers knew that simply piling on attacks was usually the mathematically prime choice ("more opportunities for damage per turn" surpasses stuff like "better ability to hit" or "better damage"), and less savvy/more devil-may-care players would ultimately take a lot more time per turn.

In the end, Extra Attacks are foolproof, Fighters having the most ASIs mean they can still have a lot of options while being accurate (or be "who gives a shit about disadvantage" accurate, or have more reasonable multiclass options). It'd have been silly to leave those martial dice as-is, especially after introducing the Fighting Styles. They traded flashiness for consistency and a faster turn, and I can't blame them.

>>53484417
You are misunderstanding the problem with the one hour short rest.

It is not that the party takes an 8 hour rest whenever they have a chance to take a 1 hour rest. It is that they opt not to rest at all when they have the chance to take a 1 hour rest, because hiding in a pantry for an hour when you're clearing a dungeon is fucking retarded and extremely unnatural. So the party just relies on their long rest resources to slaughter past the entire day's encounters in one swoop and then return to town to sleep for the night, and the "day's encounters" is usually much less than the DMG says it should be anyway because trying to shoehorn nine separate fights into every scenario is also unnatural and most GMs don't bother to do it.

The reason people say that as "you can just take an 8 hour rest whenever you could take a 1 hour rest" is because hiding in the pantry is SO unnatural that it doesn't even occur to them that that is what the system expects them to do. The only reasonable time to stop for an hour is when you're camping in the wilderness or safely inside the walls of a town.

>>53484542
>>53482105
1-hour short rests also help keep ducks in a row for things like downtime activities or anything else that might track time. I believe the DMG has a variable rule outlining 4e-style, 5-minute short rests.

I say split the difference and have half-hour short rests. Faster, but not effortlessly so.

>>53484580
Can I at least still be mad about them taking away the version of the sorcerer that accumulated badass dragon-themed powers as they ran dry on spells?

>>53484311
I actually like playing martials more, but my group tends to run a lower fantasy setting where casters are Treated weirdly. And its easier to roleplay the charismatic thief who talks his way out of trouble than the arrogant caster that people fear or respect and try to avoid.

>>53484677
That ran into the same issues the other guy was talking about. There was a best choice way to do things.

They were cool, mind, just...it was dropped for a reason past grog whining.

>>53484677
Yeah, that one was a legit letdown. Totem Barbarian got some gnarly changes too, but not as interesting and those kind of stuck around in a diminished form.
Maybe Warlock as well, but that could just as much have been me thinking, "I'm going to houserule that at some point."

>>53484705

Not exactly what was being talked about, though. Everything has its own elements which can be fun to RP, but Martials are often given limited arrays of options in terms of actual mechanics, limiting your ability to make meaningful and enjoyable decisions, lending them to be rather autopilot in combat.

>>53484267
>spellcasters (the majority of classes) are long rest dependent anyway
Druids wildshape/partial spell recovery is short rest.
Wizard's partial spell recovery is short rest.
Warlocks PERIOD are short rest.
Clerics channel divinity is short rest.
Paladin's too, plus he's front line he needs the health. Has more slotless healing than most though.
Barbarians recharge Relentless Rage. This is late level, true, but they too will want to short rest just for the health.

The only classes with no short rest abilities are Bards, Rangers, and Sorcerors.

Bards don't have to stop, but they do have an ability directly tied to their allies healing better during stops, and people do so love using those shiny class abilities when they can.
If memory serves all UA rangers have short rest abilities, whether we're talking Revised or Spirit companion. If they're using the bad original one, well, laughter is the best medicine they say. Start coming up with reoccuring pet death jokes to get revenge.
And honestly, who plays a non-multiclassed sorcerer?

>>53484016
Get fucked freeform fag, back to f-list with you.
>HP shouldn't be a thing, you die if I say you Who needs game mechanics?

>>53484809

Way to entirely miss the fucking point, moron.

>>53484367
>>53484327
my friend have non-adventuring played a campaign nearly identical to this. Is one of you dearest Joshykins, or has this occurred more than once?

>>53484620
of note, short rest says you can partake in light walking while on it.
You don't have to stop. Just don't do anything super strenuous.

>>53484868
If you're in a dungeon or something with enemies actively in it, how are you going to take an hour out for a short rest?

>>53484764
trust me bub, you don't know autopilot in combat til you've played a warlock.

It's much, much worse than battlemaster fighter in that regards

>>53484620
I understand where you are coming from but I think that people not thinking to take short rests is a player/DM problem, not a system problem. DM's not using up their 'XP Budget' for the adventuring day means the DM is designing adventures that are too easy.

I agree that using up an adventuring days worth of XP every single day is unnatural, but I it is fine for dungeons/very hostile environments.

To make it so the decision whether or not to rest is a significant one. As someone fond of dungeon crawls with time management as a central feature, I like it.

>>53484903
just because it contains enemies doesn't mean you can't go an hour before running into another band of enemies while you explore. Especially if you end up in some kind of puzzle room stuck trying to solve it.

Just how tiny and cramped are these broomclosets your DM calls dungeons? Are they just one big chain of enemy waves then you call it a day? I'll admit I had a DM that did that kind of thing once before, it was awful. 3 Level+2 CR encounters with glorified cutscenes, more accurately described as soliliquies, between them. If that's what you're experiencing I suggest doing what I did and bowing out. There are much better things to experience than XP grinder now with 10 minute interludes of DMPCs talking to each other as a thinly veiled exposition dump.

>>53484797
Druids are fullcasters. I played a moon druid from 1st to 8th level and can confirm recharging wildshape isn't a necessity worth stopping for an hour over, even if it's very strong.
Wizards are fullcasters, the partial spell recovery is just a cherry on top to them.
Warlocks are one of the classes that get fucked by short rests being unreasonable in many scenarios.
Clerics are fullcasters and channel divinity isn't a big deal. I played a life cleric from 5th to 9th level and only used my channel divinity to scare off undead a couple of times.
Paladin channel divinities aren't a big deal, their important abilities are either passive or long-rest dependent. I've been playing alongside a paladin from 5th to 9th and the only thing they need to care about is their smites.
A character that multiclasses into barbarian for their resistances, just a mere dip of levels, becomes so absurdly tanky they might as well be invincible. I have witnessed this. A high level barbarian who has actually been brought to the point of using Relentless Rage is probably experiencing a full party wipe and will have to drag their party's corpses back to town to be resurrected, if they survive the fight at all.

>>53484797
Bardic Inspiration is a short-rest recharge, after about 5th Level.

>>53484903
>take an hour out
just because you're not doing strenuous stuff doesn't mean you can't do anything at all guy.
You need to think a lot more creatively.

>>53485043
Ah, thank you my good man, I missed that.

I wonder why sorceror's have no short rest abilities then?
I wonder... Would they be more usable if their points recharged on short rest like monk's ki? They would potentially get more spells per day, but they'd still be very limited in versatility.

>>53483800
It's not "catching your breath" it's replenishing several key resources in the game, You fucking spend hit dice during short rests.

>>53484016
>and not conductive to a RPG where combat is a normal occurrence

In my experience, they're literally the only thing conducive to such an environment, since they make combat predictable enough to regularly undertake. It also completely fits the design aims of D&D, in which resource and time management were (and ultimately, still are) a major concern of the game.

It also fits the sword and sorcery roots of the genre, modeling the relatively survivability of the heroes versus their opponents quite well.

>>53485040
>channel divinity isn't a big deal

That depends entirely on the type of cleric you're playing, War and Tempest for instance will be wanting to make full use of theirs. Honestly Life should too and I have no idea why you used it that little.

>>53485116
>You fucking spend hit dice during short rests.
but you can just use spell slots and lay on hands to heal up instead. Its less dangerous, except for when you clutch run out of spells, you're still not done, and you're too far deep to get out without wading through even more encounters that you don't have the spells to survive either, then it;s much much more dangerous.
Trust me, I've played Etrian Odyssey. I've been there.

>>53485178
Casters have cantrips that are actually fairly potent to carry them, and hitdice allow them to minimize spell consumption, or spend it on things other than healing.

>>53485175
>Honestly Life should too and I have no idea why you used it that little.
his GM is super nonlethal. He isn't forced into take short rests because it isn't necessary. Which is why it just sounds like fighter whining to him. He's never been in a situation where he needed to short rest period, so the fighter getting his stuff back was just a great bonus.

>>53485197
YOU CAN;T SPEND THOSE SLOT MINIMIZING HIT DICE WITHOUT RESTING
CHECKMATE ATHIESTS.

>>53485197
Where is this healing cantrip you speak of?

>>53485175
We fought a lot of undead in that campaign and using it for the fear/destroy was usually the best option when I felt it was needed.

>>53485238
Yes, and? My whole argument there was to suggest that you should rest to spend hitdice to avoid wasting spell slots, and that this means that a 5 minute short rest is more than just "catching your breath."

>>53485255
...are you fucking retarded? I suggest spending hitdice to avoid spending spell slots on healing, cantrips are there to give casters something to do regularly without spending spell slots as well.

>>53485259
In that case it sounds like the feature was more useful to you than you let on in your initial post.

>>53485215
Actually that GM was extremely lethal and the reason I was playing life cleric to begin with is because I knew we would be slaughtered without ample healing. The entire party, sans myself who was hiding behind cover, would often get knocked below 0 hp in a single round all at once, and I would respond by casting mass healing word before they started to get executed. The wizard in particular would constantly be on a roller coaster of getting knocked out and then woken up before he can be finished off, and he rarely got to take his turns because his place on the turn order would pass inbetween the fits of unconsciousness.

>>53485108
I reckon you could homebrew a short rest recovery variant of Sorc points. You would need to do a lot of tuning though. The numbers would need to prevent them getting too many more higher level spell slots per day than other casters, while still letting them use all the metamagics.

Recovering a third/half of their level, rounded up, in Sorc points on a short rest, once per day, would be easier to balance out than a full restoration like Ki points.

Honestly, I think that Sorc is just a badly designed class since it needs a great deal of system mastery to unlock its power. A min/max'd Sorc is amazing at what they are built to do, a cobbled together Sorc where you pick the things "that looked fun" can be utter shit. I do like the Sorc, but can see its flaws.

>>53485108
>>53485542
In regards to why they have no short rest abilities, I think there is no game design reason. When the Sorc was cobbled together it just turned out that way.

>>53484671
Eh if you're in a situation where an hour rest isn't feasible, half an hour isn't much better.

>>53485573
Which is retarded, honestly. Better game design would have everyone getting similar benefit from short and long rests. Not strictly the same, but at least enough to be worthwhile.

>>53486336
Better game design gets you 4e, which D&D fans hate for some reason

>>53486471
It went so far in it's changes that one could say it had a different soul. Something more nuanced and moderate in style would have gone over a lot better, even while including a lot of it's advances.

>>53486471
4e was stale garbage; everything was homogenized under the exact same framework and the entire design was fucking obsessed with set-piece tactical battles. Fuck off with your resentiment driven views on game design.

>>53482105

>How often are you really going to be in a situation where you can relax for an hour in the middle of an adventure, but you can't relax for the full 8 hours for a long rest?

Depends on your DM

>>53482215
fpbp

>>53483987
>stabbed in the gut like four times
You're fucking retarded too.

>>53482105
My players take roughly 1 short rest per day. Sometimes they have to skip long rests and do another short rest. Once they were short on hit die. Caused a bit of panic, but they managed. Of course, some days they don't do short rests.

>How often would you short rest instead of long rest?
At short rests, everyone is able to keep watch and it is harder to get interrupted.
You are also still able to make some progress if you need to decode or craft something, for example.
You are proportionally more likely to encounter enemies when taking a long rest in a dangerous location, because you're not moving around for so long.
If you get assaulted during a long rest, you will probably not be combat prepared and if you have to withdraw you might have to leave stuff behind.

>>53482270
5 minutes is nothing, it is ridiculous. What is that supposed to represent? You might as well make them instantaneous.

1 hour = significant amount of time that might slow you down. You might get interrupted. Fluffwise it makes sense.
5 minutes = just when you sit down to relax the short rest is over.

>>53487051
>What is that supposed to represent?
An amount of time that won't fuck you over if you have to sit down in a dungeon?

>>53485070
No.

>>53483854
I did say we don't currently have any warlocks, for what it's worth.
It also probably helps the way our battles are spread out, too.

>>53484193
I'm playing a full caster (sorc) with it, and rarely have trouble.
There's been one boss encounter where I've been reduced to cantrips, that's it.

We do tend to run combat light-ish, which probably helps.

>>53487051
Catching your breath, wiping off your sweat, shaking out a knot in your muscles, emptying the rocks from your boots.

>>53487305
This depends entirely on the nature of the dungeon. If you're moving through an ancient ruin that's sparsely populated, or an underground cavern system where sound doesn't carry and so forth, taking an hour, holing up somewhere, and resting there isn't going to get you ambushed by four encounters at once or something. Realistically, most of the monsters or intelligent creatures in the dungeon are doing their own things and won't even venture into the parts that's you've cleaved through unless you took your break in the middle of clearing a section out - in which case maybe they've move about to prep for your inevitable arrival. This is far more reasonable than seeking you out while you're resting - if you found a bunch of slaughtered patrols you'd bunker down, not send more out to get killed.

In an enemy fortress, evil wizard tower swarming with guards, or other very active location, a short rest is much more of a liability, but with the aid of magic (rope trick is THE uninterrupted short rest spell) and careful planning, you can still pull it off. Given, the monsters being alert in this situation makes things harder, but better to go into them mostly topped off than running on empty.

>>53484267
You are horrendously overstating the effects a single hour would have on anything as organized as a bunch of goblins or orcs. Or for that matter most things. Hell, most humans can't even spend an hour correctly the way you seem to think most people can.

Its a fucking hour. People have taken shits for longer than that.

>>53482105
If you dont like it, change it
None of this exists

>>53486562
>>53486566
>It FEELS bad, therefore it's the worst thing ever
D&Dfags truly deserve 3.PF and 5e.

>>53488281
>People have taken shits for longer than that.
Those people should call a doctor and/or eat more fiber.

>>53489923
It was on company time.

>>53482105
It's almost like you're supposed to use those abilities sparingly, instead of walking around flicking off spells and auto-recovering form injuries.

>>53490987
>Be Fighter
>Spend all my dice
>Forced to do nothing but auto-attack for the rest of the session because nobody wants to short rest.

>Be Wizard
>Spend most of my wizard slots
>Cast Rope Trick
>Party can choose to either get killed without me or enjoy a long rest inside my invisible, nigh-invulnerable pocket dimension hanging in a secluded section of the dungeon.

Great fucking game design.

>>53490987
Sorry, fucked up here >>53491252
Meant to say "short rest" instead of "long rest"

>>53485215
>his GM is super nonlethal. He isn't forced into take short rests because it isn't necessary.

L O L @ the kind of low-lethality DMs that allow 1-hour rests, as if you aren't going to get your shit pushed in 100% if you give the dungeon dwellers that kind of time to regroup.

t. DM who just had a TPK

>>53491488
Ten to one you've got a completely unrealistic view of how fast a group can organize, but okay.

>>53483032
This really fucks with several spells that require upkeep or need to be recast though.

>>53491548
>Ten to one you've got a completely unrealistic view of how fast a group can organize, but okay.

Ten to one you didn't serve

>>53484396
What's your healing rate if you take an eight-hour rest in an anti-magic field? Surely the rules cover this.

>>53491711
>Implying goblins and orcs are on par with western trained militaries

'kay.

>>53491786

>Implying raiding warriors like e.g. the Plains Indians, the Mongols or the Vikings weren't partially feared because their life style made them better, not worse, organized for warfare than their contemporaries.

OK enough greentexting, that was a serious post you made, so I'll take you seriously.

Yes you're right, absolutely, random dungeon denizens might be disorganized rabble. If e.g. the first layer of a dungeon is a pack of goblins, you could probably kill all of them with nobody else being any wiser because noises and cries from the goblin warrens is nothing new to everybody else, they're probably just having another leadership squabble/backstabbing round.

But they might also not be. If the last guy in the dungeon is an Aboleth or a Mindflayer, it might well have everybody else under mind-control and will feel the connection snapping as you kill their minions. Or you might, from maybe level 5+, be facing a Devil, who would have his soldiers drilled beyond that expected by the most sadistic centurion in the roman army.

So unless you KNOW that you're "only facing rabble," you're gambling with your life whenever you rest in or near the dungeon. As the DM, I probably wouldn't actually attack you during the rest (unless you're long-resting AKA sleeping) but after an hour, there'd be whatever AOE capability I have on hand right there for when you unspike the door, with archers and bruisers ready to mop up survivors.

>>53491959
And this is approaching sensible, actually. If there's an actual fucking reason for a short rest to be reacted to, then by all means, do so. That said, even with your given examples, neither the Aboleth nor the Devil would be able to actually FIND the PCs within one hour in a decent sized dungeon if they bothered to hide in a side room and rope trick.

I'd handle it by "Yeah, all that magical loot that's at the bottom of the dungeon in a vault? That's now in the hands of the patrolling guards. Also there are now patrols behind you. Also there's a good possibility of some primitive communications network having been set up/being properly utilized now. Have fun."

That seems a lot more reasonable set of commands for the duder at the bottom of the dungeon to give in the 50 minutes or so left in the hour after the connections stop snapping/reports stop coming in/etc. and they realize the party's trying to catch their breath.

>>53482105
Then change it for your game dingus. "I don't like this rule" THEN BREAK IT AND MAKE YOUR OWN, FUCKFACE. jesus.

>>53484677
The Sorcerer is the same shit.
Why do people pine for "you get resistance to your chosen energy type... towards the END of your adventuring day?" Wow, such flavor!

>>53484809
hm? They've been HeisenbergPoints since 1e, my new friend.

>>53484011
Yes, a number of warlock patrons are most definitely gods. Tharizdun, Sseth, and Umberlee, for example.

>>53492534

You seem to be completely missing the point of what people are sad about. It's not about the specific implementation. it's that the really interesting ideas that were being explored were not brought to fruition.

>>53492602
People are sad because they've heard garbled reports about how things could have been, feel cheated because they work that stuff out as being better than it was in their heads, invent bogeymen who deprived them of their due ("wizard players and grognards"), and generally feed on each other's butthurt.

>It's not about the specific implementation

Of course not, because 99% of the whiners have never seen the playtest. It is most definitely that they think the old versions would have been better, though, without ever looking.

>>53492988

Except that's bullshit, because I read and played the playtest, and that shit was awesome.

You're trying to brush over it to stop people talking about how much wasted potential there was, by focusing on the problems with the specific implementation.

But it was a fucking playtest, and the ideas were good, and 5e squandered them. You cannot retcon history and make people forget that.

The Battlemaster fucking sucks compared to what the martial dice fighter could have been. The Sorcerer is bland and redundant compared to the really interesting design the playtest was experimenting with. And you aren't going to convince people that they somehow didn't exist.

>>53493090
>You're trying to brush over it to stop people talking about how much wasted potential there was,

Its definitely not about "wasted potential." You might be the 1%.

>and the ideas were good

The fact that in the final product you got better functionality with far less word count and far less complexity (of the bad kind) shows the ideas were pretty shit.

>The Battlemaster fucking sucks compared to what the martial dice fighter could have been.

The martial dice fighter fucking sucks compared to the actual Battlemaster. Of course everyone thinks they can make a better RPG than the next guy WITH THIS ONE WEIRD TRICK, hence the Fantasy Heartbreaker refuse piles and the gigantic dumpsters of d20 products out there.

>And you aren't going to convince people that they somehow didn't exist.

Be my guest and pine for shit that was drastically less fun, more complicated, and less effective (again, not counting that all combat related classes could get comparatively big bonuses to damage and that the playtest era generally had a much higher focus on scaling damage). I'm just here to counter the massive disinfo that people vomit forth in these threads.

>>53488281
I know that and you know that, but most of the party doesn't know that, and the GM doesn't know that.
>guys can we stop for an entire hour?
>"no"

>>53493254

Except you're spouting bullshit.

You're comparing the functionality of playtest ideas with the finished product and acting as if the finished product comes off better somehow means the ideas in the playtest were bad, but that doesn't make any goddamn sense.

>The fact that in the final product you got better functionality with far less word count and far less complexity (of the bad kind) shows the ideas were pretty shit.

Meanwhile shit like this is just purely you stating your opinion, which is fine and all, but is pretty irrelevant to your attempts to tell people what they remember being cool and fun was actually crap.

>>53489914
>shilling for 4th
>shtting on 3.5
Look mike, I get it you're mad nobody liked your shit system, get over it and stop shit posting on /tg/ pretending you're a real game designer

>>53493448

>Shilling
>For systems that are no longer in production

I don't think you know what that word means

>>53492081
Not OP, I complain about short rests being too long in literally every group I'm in and not a single GM has changed it because they can't get off their ass to change the rules for anything but eldritch knight buffs and some bizarre feat they wanted to add. They'll even agree with me and still not change it out of apathy.

>>53491711
What MOS you fucking pog

>>53493448
>Mike

What. Mearls hated 4e. You can't even get your shilling meme right.

>>53484580
>I can't blame them.
I can because I fucking hate the end result with a passion and I don't give a shit why they got there. BM is the least interesting Fighter or Fighter analogue I've played since 3.0 and I can make serious arguments that 3.5 or ESPECIALLY PF's Fighter are better than it. Polish the mechanic until it works, don't fuck it up until you're left with nothing but a wannabe martial adept with shitty maneuvers that has to sit on their ass for an hour to recharge their tiny pool.

>>53496196
To be fair, nobody in the D&D fanbase actually enjoys playing martials, it's always magic users with pocket nukes that can shit on an encounter in one or two moves.

4e fixed most of 3.PF's issues but having martials that were more than auto-attacking bench warmers was too much to bear for the 3aboo's mind, so they scaled it back and made them useless *some* of the time instead of *all* of the time as a compromise.

>>53482347
>>53482360
>D&D started with 3e
Sometimes I think you people are stupid on purpose.

>>53496763

For 90% of its audience, it literally did.

>>53496787
For 100% of reality, it literally wasn't.
Just because it's YOUR first D&D doesn't mean it's THE first D&D.

>>53496893

But you're never going to get them to care.

The minority who would probably already do, and getting angry that people treat 3e onwards as the baseline isn't going to change anything.

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>>53496928
I guess you're right.

>>53493332
...yes, I am comparing things that were worse and changed to be better.

You are comparing things that exist to totally hypothetical things that don't exist, and saying the hypothetical things are totally better.

>what they remember

But that's just it. The vast, VAST majority of morons arguing about how "fighters used to be COOL!" were never part of the playtest. They aren't talking about "what they remember."

>>53497111

I'm saying those hypothetical things could have been better, and that it's a damn shame the playtest dropped those lines of development, or watered them down, rather than actually putting in the effort to fully flesh them out.

>>53496482
Most players wind up being martials in 5e, so...

>it's always magic users with pocket nukes that can shit on an encounter in one or two moves.

Ah yes, those wascally high level casters curb stomping CR 1/2 foes... if the DM even still uses them at that point.

>>53497142

Being fair, that specific statement was more connected to 3.PF's garbage combat balance. 5e does a good job of making martials less irrelevant in a fight. It's the utility gap which presents the largest issue these days, and spells are still treated as a universal unit of design.

>>53497142
>Most players wind up being martials in 5e
Mostly for the same reasons as people jumped from 3.5 to PF. People claim "oh, they fixed all the problems in 3.X" and most people get suckered into it thinking that it's the truth.

>>53497141
>I'm saying those hypothetical things could have been better,

They were made better.

>>53485330
That sounds rather unfun. But okay.

>>53497228

The sorcerer stuff was entirely gotten rid of, and the Battlemaster is boring trash with only a shadow of the potential of what it could have been.

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>>53482314
>D&D
>Strategy
Jesus H. Christ, it took me almost a minute to get a hold of myself to reply

>>53497215
>thinking that it's the truth

(Full) casters just plain can't do a lot. Their main thing is utility and flashbanging chump squads, while hoping the DM *actually uses* weak enough chump squads that their AoE can do anything to them.

Its a living.

I say full casters because if you include all classes that can cast spells as "casters," you're left with... nothing.

>>53497247
>and the Battlemaster is boring trash with only a shadow of the potential of what it could have been.

Okay. Why don't you make your own third party supplement for 5e and show them up if your ideas are so fuckin amazing?

>>53497405

Why bother? It's a bland but functional system that had all the interesting ideas drained out of it in the playtest.

>>53497333
This is only true if you use feats but don't use multiclassing, and ban some abuses, and no material outside of CRB.

Hell, even then, it comes into question at higher levels, and only when compared to fighters. Druid is better Barb than the Barb, and Bard can emulate/match Ranger/Paladin pretty damn well, while being full casters.

And at lower levels a fireball really does wipe. And sells like hypnotic pattern stay relevant despite being only 3rd level (you could make the argument all "non scaling" effect spells relying on saves actually get better since the bad saves don't advance at all while the save DCs do).

>>53497431
So you admit that you can't do better, then go right to saying how... you could do better. Okay.

>>53497474

What I could do isn't relevant here. The design team should have done better.

I might be able to, if I cared enough, but nothing about 5e is interesting enough to make me bother. Except, y'know, the things they scrapped.

>>53497445
>ban some abuses

If your argument is banking on "wizards pwn because wish simulacrum xDDD" then my hat is off to you, you win the game forever.

>>53497333
Utility and flashbanging dudes already puts them at a pretty decent curve in comparison to non-casters though. I mean what, is the Fighter going to take out a whole group of goblins like a caster who uses entangle or web or hypnotic pattern?

>>53497497
So the design team are simultaneously shitbags who churned out boring garbage, but you can't do better than them.

There's nothing about the old martial dice system that looked "good" to me, just wordy and pedantic as fuck.

>Glancing Blow
>Effect: When you miss a target with a melee attack but your attack result is a 10 or higher, you can spend martial damage dice to turn the miss into a glancing blow, which is not treated as a hit. Roll all the martial damage dice you spend. The target takes damage equal to the highest die result alone. The damage is of the weapon's damage type, but it delivers no additional effect associated with the weapon or the attack.

>>53497333
You seem to know know what you're talking about very well.
The power of casters comes down to their best spells, and there are some incredible spells.

Hypnotic Pattern doesn't even have a saving throw based duration.

>>53497563

A variety of options that gave you interesting mechanical choices to make, every round.

That's what the martial dice fighter provided. And that's what the battlemaster fails to provide. That's all there is to it.

Also, you know saying 'Well you couldn't do better!' isn't actually a way to defend something from criticism, right? It's just petulant.

>>53497544
>Utility and flashbanging dudes already puts them at a pretty decent curve in comparison to non-casters though

Well, they're reliant on the party to survive fights, and they're reliant on the DM to remember to put in garbage monsters to make them feel better about not being able to take on real monsters. And I am perpetually surprised at how many people don't notice the new Challenge system is wildly different from 3e CR or 4e monster level.

Most fights I've seen are a legendary guy (who completely shits on everything casters do) or a mix of relatively high monsters.

They've got a *very* narrow window where they shine. "Make goblins less of a drag to fight" is a bit of a humiliating niche.

>>53497656
Well I mean, it's not like wizards are limited to just mopping up weenies. They have plenty of spells that fuck over single targets too.

If anything, martials are more dependent on the party and the DM because without a healer, they're dead and without short rests to refresh their abilities and spend some hit dice, they're dead as well.

>>53497638

>A variety of options that gave you interesting mechanical choices to make, every round.

"Variety" is a bit of an exaggeration. Can you come up with ANY interesting mechanical choices they'd be entitled to make?

I mean, the very best things are going to go for them is... letting you hit extra targets.

>>53497779

I don't have to. The mechanical framework they established and discussed promised that, and they failed to properly realise that mechanic for bullshit reasons. Why do you keep trying to excuse shoddy, lazy design?

Or are you just questioning the idea of interesting raw martial combat altogether?

>>53497772
>They have plenty of spells that fuck over single targets too.

And they're in the situation that if they're facing a single target... its probably a legendary, who they just plain can't do anything about.

The returns on healing as a recovery thing are completely awful (unless you're a bard).

>>53497807

>Why do you keep trying to excuse shoddy, lazy design?

Because by admission, you can't do anything better, and can't even come up with an example in which the playtest fighter would have been better, or even hypothetical examples of how it could be made into a better system.

>>53497878

You're just confusing me at this point, as well as literally talking about stuff I never said. Along with refusing to provide any solid answers or clarification when I ask what the fuck you're talking about.

>>53497941
You have repeatedly said "its shit! its SHIT!" but can't conceive of anything better, or explain how the old version could have been made into better, even theoretically.

>>53497839
>And they're in the situation that if they're facing a single target... its probably a legendary, who they just plain can't do anything about.
????

If you're talking about legendary actions that can make them pass on a failed roll, that only really works so many times before something goes through. I mean, what level are you fighting these legendaries?

>>53497977

I could, but how is any of that even relevant? Also, I'm pretty sure I did illustrate how it could have been better, just in concept, but you quibbled and demanded details before you deemed it acceptable.

>>53498073
>that only really works so many times before something goes through.

The legendary has to fail three saving throws. Its gonna be long dead before anything goes through. And remember, you can't "trick" a legendary into using it on something inconsequential unless the DM desires it; its an option, not a requirement, to use it on a failed save.

>I mean, what level are you fighting these legendaries?

Whatever level you like.

>>53497512
>If your argument is banking on "wizards pwn because wish simulacrum xDDD" then my hat is off to you, you win the game forever.

Skeleton armies. Summons in general. Polymorph+sleep. Tiny Hut leapfrog.

There's really a lot of degenerate shit casters can get into.

Also, nice how you say "if your argument is banking on..." when I have two other arguments in the same line, and another one under it.

>>53498172

The fact that you are unable to figure out an interesting use of the old system, and that both you and the devs were unable to find a way to redeem the old system, suggests that there's, unsurprisingly, no productive use of the old system.

If all the king's horses and all the king's men and you combined couldn't figure out a way to make a system into something remotely good, then maybe, just maybe, its better to jettison it.

The very best I've seen is... the "battlemaster but every round xDDD" homebrew that occasionally circulates here.

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>>53497977
>can't conceive of anything better
Not like there was an entire book it took its basic ideas from or anything...

>>53485116
And in 4e you could spend healing surges during a 5 minute short rest. Wowza, what an immersion breaker.

>>53497309
Let me guess, you think D&D started at 3e too?

>>53498331

That you're not creative enough to imagine it doesn't mean other people aren't, and that I'm not particularly inclined to respond in depth to your endless nagging doesn't mean it's beyond me, either.

You seem very desperate to prove there was nothing in the 5e playtest worth recovering. It's kinda odd.

>>53498331
>The fact that you are unable to figure out an interesting use of the old system, and that both you
[citation needed]
>and the devs
No, the devs 'threw it away' because they just HAD to kludge it into a short rest dependent Fighter specialization because they already decided to make an autoattacker Fighter as their all day thing.

Even though ALL DAY is, as usual, of questionable use when you're still dependent on Action Surge to do anything notable.

>>53498317
Not sure what you mean by polymorph+sleep. Its very hard for me to envision a situation in which turning someone into a fuzzy animal is going to be broken, much less broken enough to ban, since that INTRINSICALLY means you have one enemy in a fight who isn't a legendary, but that its worth your entire concentration slot being used up the entire fight on. When you could be instead giving someone advantage to hit + disadvantage to be hit, or wrecking the enemy action economy, or whatever.

Skeleton armies are interesting, although there's a wide spectrum of foes that simply obliterate them out of hand. A little AoE and your contribution for the day is gone. Maneuvering and using to a degree that is considered exploitative in the double digit levels is a giant chore.

Summons (I assume conjure x?) are as okay-ish an investment you can get. Planar Binding is nice if the DM is 100% comfortable with it and if you are fortunate to avoid foes with Dispel Magic.

Not really sure what "Tiny Hut leapfrog" means. I assume you mean just that they're easy ways to rest; if so, I'm comfortable with easy resting. If the DM is not 100% comfortable with easy resting, then spending 8 hours in the enemy base and giving them that long to plan a killer ambush is on the PCs.

>>53498437

>You seem very desperate to prove there was nothing in the 5e playtest worth recovering.

I am merely taking the fact that you can't imagine any way to use the playtest stuff as evidence that there isn't any way to have improved it.

>>53498392

Not even distantly pertinent to the Rancid Ass tier playtest fighter.

>>53498768

So basically you're just ignoring things now to try and protect your precious 5e. Got it.

>>53498565
You can summon a tiny hut in 10 minutes. They are absolutely impenetrable. Even using the sage advice update of "you can't attack outside of a tiny hut", it's the ultimate siege tool.

>>53498768
If you're retarded.

>>53498851
Ya got nothin.

>>53499067

There's plenty, but you've shown every intention of ignoring it and demanding something else, so why bother catering to your bullshit?

>>53498894
If the enemy chooses to give you ten minutes, you can take a long rest, if the enemy does not decide to dispel your shit, and if the enemy does not decide to rape you to death when you exit it. Seems fine to me... even assuming you have a problem with the PCs taking frequent long rests.

>>53499101

You've shown that you can't figure out a way to rehabilitate the playtest fighter into anything good. Which suggests that there is no way to rehabilitate it into something good.

>>53499146

That's such a weak statement it doesn't even need to be called logic. Especially since this thread contains multiple examples that you simply chose to ignore.

>>53499146
One of those doesn't logically flow from the other.

>>53499176
>Especially since this thread contains multiple examples that you simply chose to ignore.

So far there are none... which is kind of unfortunate.

The only presentation I've seen isn't even in this thread, and it was just "the battle master fighter... but every round!"

>>53499146
Yeah, because making extra attacks a core mechanic instead of something you spend dice on and adding maneuvers that don't suck is an impossible task.

>>53499228
That's already an improvement over that piece of shit.

>>53499239

>an impossible task.

Apparently so.

>>53499112
You can advance in 10 feet steps, if you meet resistance.

The dungeon denizens can do shit all about it.

>>53499270
>Spells and other magical effeets ean't extend through the dome or be east through it.

You have to leave the dome to make a new one.

>>53499270
Sounds like a pretty humorous trick for a light hearted campaign. May be effective if the DM is cool with it.

>>53498768
>Y CAN'T YOU CONCEIVE OF ANYTHING BETTER THAN THE BATTLEMASTER?
>posts book BM did the shittiest job of ripping off ever
>WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH THAT'S NOT RELEVANT
Shit post, downie poster.

>>53499392
Move dem goalposts, move dem good!

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>>53499426
The only goalpost mover here is you. You asked us to conceive of something better, I posted something better, you cried that it wasn't relevant even though it obviously is.

>>53499461
>You asked us to conceive of something better

Regarding the playtest fighter.

>>53499558

And this is why it's not worth putting up with your bullshit.

5e Fighter goes from "eh" to "Murder Train" with six little letters- PAM+GWM.

CROSSBOW RAPIST is also nasty.

>>53499598
If you can't read a post in its entirety, don't bother responding to it.

>>53499558
"Replace with Warblade" is a better choice than using the playtest Fighter and I would still take the playtest Fighter with a little work over BM.

Do you honestly expect me to look at BM and suddenly go "Yes, this is clearly the best they could ever do no matter what and is a logical conclusion to the playtest Fighter"? Because that's not gonna happen, ever.

>>53499332
They can't extend through, okay. You cast the new dome, then cancel the old. Now it's in place, unblocked by the old one.

>>53499608
Could do better in 3.5. Could definitely do better in PF.

>>53499674
Actually, 3.5 martials are way less constrained than 3.PF ones, especially in that regard.

Google "Hood builds"; they have potential damages in the millions.

>>53499674
yeah and 5e isn't 3.5 or PF you stupid nigger.
>You can do this already OP thing better
>Being even more overpowered is a good thing

>>53499649
You still seem to confuse disdain for the playtest fighter for a like of the BM. I prefer 4e.

>>53499699
More than aware of that. That's one of the reasons I die a little inside when I see retards crying about PoW's damage, as if 3.5's damage numbers didn't inflate way beyond anything they could ever do.

It's also why I'll never, ever be impressed with a 5E martial.

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>>53499717
>3.5
>PF
>Fighters OP

>>53499740
In 3e and prior editions, mulching enemies fast was a pretty normal thing. In 4e and 5e, they somewhat try to keep you from dismissing typical monsters instantaneously.

>>53499764

Satire.

>>53499740
Meh, as far as I know the problem with PoW stuff doing a lot of damage isn't that it does a lot of damage, but that it does so with using őassive boosts and full attacks, which is exactly what the PoW system of giving martial "powers" tries to evade.

>>53499777
5E moreso than 4E and that does not work in its favor whatsoever because that combat length existed due to TACTICAL COMBAT. The thing 5E doesn't have.

Hell, even in 4E a striker could at least kill a standard enemy in 2 rounds by themselves. Many of them could push an Elite's shit in within the same timeframe, too.

>>53499797
What exactly were they going for with the whole attack vs full attack distinction, anyway? The guy who has to move usually loses?

>>53499830
"Fuck martials"

Also stacked against PCs because monsters do their damage in a few swings, have pounce, or are tough enough to sit there until they can full attack. Shit's dumb.

>>53499797
That was true of ToB too. Tiger Claw with the proper stance could erase enemies before they could blink far more effectively than, say, Iron Heart's +100 damage strike could. At least White Raven got no save stuns.

>>53499890
Yeah, neither system is perfect (mostly cause they are shackled to 3.PF).

>>53499654
I would count targeting an area outside of the dome as casting through it personally.

>>53482298

>if you're not full attacking it's not D&D
>only having played 3e onwards

look I know you people are all like 12 years old, but only three editions of D&D have this specific problem. 2e was designed so that thinking tactically was practically required, and if your fighter isn't carrying flasks of oil, acid, and a half dozen situational weapons you're not doing it right.

>>53483828

>every fight uses all your resources

how do you get through dungeons? How do you make it past the defences to fight the dragons?

>>53484991
Well a system problem would be that the game is designed at needing 9 encounters to drain all daily resources. Should have varient rules to handle resources if games use fewer encounters

>>53484016

You know people DID get stabbed and keep going, right? Like, they weren't made of paper?

>>53498256
>The legendary has to fail three saving throws.
Okay, and if the party has 3+ casters or a means to cast multiple spells in one turn, they're either going to eat a detrimental spell or burn through their legendary resistances by the end of the first turn.
>Whatever level you like.
What kinda non-answer is this? Creatures with legendary actions are usually CR10 creatures, which most parties won't run into on accident.

>>53498256
I should've said "usually CR10+ creatures" in my original post >>53500190

>>53489914
>how a game feels
>unimportant

Gee, it's almost like we're talking about a subjective experience of entertainment or something. You're the kind of cargo shorts and crocs wearing dipshit that's compelled to shitpost about your edition being a forgotten footnote.

>>53500963
The thing is, how a game FEELS has nothing to do with how it actually plays and most people who shit on 4e haven't actually read the rules, yet are confident in how shitty the rules are since they FEEL as though the powers are all the same, when it's obviously not the case.

If you dislike something down based on feelings, then congratulations, you're no better than a feminist.

>>53501067

Or a Republican. Newt Gingrich quote goes here.

>>53497772
>without a healer, they're dead'
MMOfag spotted. A "healer" would be better off doing absolutely anything else than healing. It's a waste of a spell slot for any healing spell to be cast, unless you're out of combat as a life cleric and then MAYBE it's worth it to sit around and heal 1d8 every six seconds.

>>53501318
>What is "Healing Word."

>>53501318
There are times when healing in combat makes sense, sometimes even for 1d4+mod.

>>53501499
Half of a Cure Wounds at range plus a cantrip.

>>53501499
>1d4 healing as a bonus action, level 1 spell slot
Oh good, you maybe removed a dagger hit? The troll you're fighting just hit for 4d6. Your move again.

>>53482105
>How often are you really going to be in a situation where you can relax for an hour in the middle of an adventure, but you can't relax for the full 8 hours for a long rest?

Do you have a job? Like a real, full-time job where you get up and go to work every day?
If so chance are it's eight hours at the VERY least and it consumes the majority of your day; Short Rests are basically taking a break to rest a moment and have maybe a quick bite if you don't want to loose all of your daylight or night resting and doing nothing intensive other then that.

I honestly have a hard time believing that you could even be confused about this; most jobs even offer thirty minute or hour-long lunch breaks so you know exactly how much you can get done in an hour of doing nothing and how exactly NOT like a full 8 hours of sleep it is.

>>53501558
At the cost of a bonus action, which gains 1d4 healing per spell slot above 1st level.
>>53501592
With healing word, you can not only heal someone at ranged, but you can also perform a standard action to either cast another spell or perform an attack, which is useful if you're not within touch range of a downed ally.

>>53501592
>>53501558
Healing word is a spell used to make sure the person who has been knocked unconscious and is dying doesn't bleed out before the end of combat. It's not meant to keep someone in a fight.

>>53501670
>>53501697
Right, but that's not healing, that's anime "pick up a downed ally"

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>>53501866

>>53501925
No need to get upset that life cleric isn't as good as you want it to be and you can't healslut for daddy fighter.

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>>53502077

>>53501866
No, that's "prevent a dying person from dying so you can heal him after combat as opposed to be forced to resurrect or let him die".

Fucking MMO playing dipshit.

>>53501670
>At the cost of a bonus action

What part of "plus a cantrip" didn't you understand?

>>53502129
Healing Word is not Spare the Dying.

>>53501670
>perform a standard action to either cast another spell

You can only cast cantrips on turns when you cast a spell with a bonus action casting time.

>>53502327
>>53502402
>>53502351
Still wouldn't stop you from healing someone while dealing damage though.

>>53501318
t. whiteroom "theory"crafter that's never played in a game
healing in combat is extremely important

>>53482105
>How often are you really going to be in a situation where you can relax for an hour in the middle of an adventure,
you should join the army and then you will understand.

>>53502561
t. retard

Look at monster damage for one second. Then realize you can actively PREVENT that damage by actually doing stuff other than healing.

>>53501657
>sitting at a desk typing up spreadsheets
>8 hours with 1 hour break, clock out at the end of the day

>walking into a castle and viciously murdering the residents with a host of deadly weapons and magic powers
>8 hours with a 1 hour break, clock out at the end of the day
>>53502669
t. double retard
can't kill the monster if you're dead

>>53502712
You can't even catch up to monster damage with spells until you get Heal. How do you expect this shit to work?

>>53502669
How much damage are you preventing if you're lying on the ground dead?

0?!? Well who'd a thunk it, amirite gentlemen?

>>53502800
You're going to die anyways if you're spamming single heals that don't even keep pace with single hits.

>>53502794
By using healing spells to keep party members conscious so they can continue dealing damage and soaking up hits.
>>53502874
You gotta understand, when your HP goes down to 0, any damage you're healed will put you back into the positives, which means that shit like healing word, you can actually deal damage with an attack while also raising an ally back up.

It's not necessarily about preventing the damage that you're taking, it's making sure that everyone in the party has over 0 HP so they can continue draining the enemy's health.

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>>53502794
>i can't heal off every last bit of damage dealt to every member of my party faster and with more frequency than the whiteroom monster can deal damage
>therefore healing is a waste of a turn and i shouldn't ever cast healing spells in combat because anon fell for a /tg/ meme

>>53497405
It doesn't take a game designer to recognize there's a problem. That's like a car dealer telling you to make your own car if you're tired of it breaking down so much. You may not know enough to propose a solution, but it certainly doesn't take much to recognize a problem.

World of Warcraft style HP bar whack-a-mole is fucking horrid, and the moment heals are good enough to be worth an action is the moment the already-pretty-mandatory cleric becomes a mandatory boring healbot slave, at which point the game has gone completely to shit.

Bringing people into the battle from unconsciousness, and saving the dying, are plenty niche for in-combat healing. And a big part of the reason why it's plenty is because then there's room to do other shit during all the other turns.

If the game was designed like your typical multiplayer vidya game, clerics would just be spamming various different shapes of heals on a rotation. A fate worse than death.

>>53502561
As a Tempest Cleric I usually found blasting to be a better use of my turn than healing. I imagine even Life Clerics end up in that sort of situation at times.