What do you think's gonna happen when Girlyman inevitably

It's kind of a gray area, honestly.

Inquisitors answer only to the Emperor Himself, or (sometimes) a higher-ranked Inquisitor (who has a bigger gun).

While Rumproast Gigabot is technically not their superior, you have to be pretty goddamn certain he's heretical and have absolute, unquestioning proof of it, or else the Imperium at large is going to fuck your shit because Primarchs are kind of a big fucking deal.

>>53418702
Absolutely nothing, because nuHammer is a story about big damn heroes fighting against evil spiky demon monsters, so even if we get to see any troublesome inter-faction conflict, the Marines are always going to come out on top.

>>53418702
last I heard, Calgar was a High Lord, and since Girlyman is his boss, he's now a High Lord.

It wouldn't be the first time a High Lord of Terra gets murdered by the Inquisition. But they probably wouldn't do it openly. Still, if they managed to pull it off, there's quite a few chapters who wouldn't mind, and those that do would be a bit cautious about confronting the Inquisition.

>>53418800
>goddamn certain he's heretical and have absolute, unquestioning proof of it
>LITERALLY WALKING AROUND WITH THE KNIFE-EARED AVATAR OF A XENOS GOD
I'm pretty sure that qualifies as "absolute, unquestioning proof". Being 'killed and resurrected' by said avatar of xenos god also counts.

Where the fuck is a Drakan Vangorich-type of guy when you need one?

>>53418878
Let's not forget Girlyman's armor is a life-support unit.

Pretty easy to make it look like an accident when your target is a literal cripple.

>>53418902
Not to mention that Ynnead might very well turn out to be the eldar Chaos God of revenge or someshit. Guess we'll know for sure once the Ynnari start eating each other's souls and growing extra dicks.

>>53418702
what are they gonna do about it?

while the Inquisition technically has power over everyone but the emperor and his bodyguards, even the high lords of terra would have to listen to them

in practice, they would be very little they could do against a primarch
send an army? he has a larger one
declare him excommunicate? the ecclesiarcy would not stand for a son of the emperor being called a heretic
exterminatus? you would blow up holy terra, even if his mighty fleets didnt blow up your ship on the way there
and even if they could kill him, it would be shooting your imperium in the foot, he is a master logistician and statesman, getting rid of him now would plunge the imperium into ruin what with the chaos problem

the inquisitors were never dumb enough to mess with large or powerful chapters, even the space wolves gave them a whole bunch of trouble when they tried to enforce their will on them, much less a friggin primarch

>>53418847
This. But even in grimdark 40k, it would take a batshit crazy inquisitor to facedown a son of God.

Which is why a primarch would have never returned if 40k was still grimdark

>>53418702
Forget about the inquisition, what about the Echlesiarchy?

Pretty sure Rowboat Girlymans claim to power was supported by a lot of space marine chapters. I remember a lot of named groups traveling by his side on the way to Terra to reclaim power.
Plus he executed most of the High Lords and replaced them with people he trust. So it isn't just him alone at the top they need to take out, there are still other people doing his work, who would continue should something happen to girlyman.

So if the Inquisition want to stop him atm, they also have to take out the high lords he replaced... AND they have to face A LOT of marine chapters who want girlyman in power.

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>>53418702
He's the motherfucking Lord Commander of the Imperium, literally the highest rank there is below Emperor. And he has the absolute loyalty of the Chadmarines, now the strongest military force in the Imperium. Even if the Inquisition wanted to try something, I'm not sure they could without turning it into another Horus Heresy.

>>53419044
The Ecclisiarchy has declared him divine. They won't go against him unless he tries to dismantle them. Which, Guilliman being one of the reasonable Primarchs, has rightly decided would probably be a bad idea at this stage.

>>53419066
>Plus he executed most of the High Lords
"Several" is probably not "most of" 12 individuals. And in noblehammer 41k, I would not count on "forcibly removed" as meaning executed either.

GW side with Guilliman, the inquisition has not teeth.

>>53419082
>Lord Commander of the Imperium, literally the highest rank there is below Emperor.
>Lord Commander of the Imperium is just a job title of one of the High Lords of Terra, all who have roughly equal power
Your lack of lore comprehension is showing anon.

>>53419156
Lord Commander of the Imperium was used by Guilliman, and is evidently being used again, as essentially Not!Emperor.

And even in The Beast Arises series, it was clear the man who held the title was essentially a First Among Equals on the Senatorum Imperialis. Udo's abuse of that status is one of the reasons it didn't survive past that point.

>>53418702
your first mistake is assuming the inquisition is an entity capable of coming to a single conclusion on anything

also, the inquisition has difficulty policing regular space marines, much less their bosses

>>53419082
Do you guys think he's drinking to silence the voices of the constant chanting outside and the general shithole that is the Imperium right now?

>>53419209
This. For each Inquisitor that's willing to accuse Guill of heresy, there are two that will suck his dick just because he's a Primarch.

The Imperium was fractured even before M42, but Guilliman is the perfect person to unite them.
>Radicals support him because he's willing to ally with xenos to get shit done.
>Puritans support him because he's a loyalist Primarch, as legitimate a leader as you can have that's not the Emperor.
>The Mechanicus support him because of bff Cawl and he lets them get on with shit.
>Chapters (mostly) support him because he's giving away free super-reinforcements like candy and half of them are his gene sons anyway.
>The Guard/Navy support him because he actually wins battles.
>Sororitas support him because he's a loyalist son of the Emperor and Celestine vouches for him.

Really, the only people who take issue with him are the odd unconventional Chapters and Inquisitors which are not enough to fight against Robute loyalists, especially since there are more pressing concerns like the fucking rift in the Galaxy.

>>53419156
Not >>53419082
But most of the old high lords have been removed, and the positions been filled with people Guilliman trusts.
Even if the Lord Commander job title isn't what the other guy said... Guilliman still controls the High Lords.

>>53418878
> Calgar was a High Lord
[Citation very needed]

>>53419082
Sebastian Thor would like a word.

>>53418984
>declare him excommunicate? the ecclesiarcy would not stand for a son of the emperor being called a heretic
Literally half the primarchs are known to be heretical servants of daemons. Another one on the pile wouldn't be opposed in principle.

As someone who was away from 40k for the last year can someone point me towards a summary of wtf has happened.

>>53419997
Deleted my original post to add spoiler tag.
>Literally half the primarchs are known to be heretical servants of daemons
>are known
Only to the Ordo Malleus. Shit, the Carrion Throne novel just released had a senior Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor get into the Emperor's Throne Room and saw a mural that had 8 figures that looked like the Primarchs, but was confused by the fact that there were twenty of them, instead of 8.

>>53418878
since when is calgar is a high lord

>>53420034
Girlyman woke up and is making new, stronger Chadmarines with big dicks who like to fuck hot Bolter Bitches for the Emprah

>>53418702
Gorillaman Heresy

>>53419997
That's not common knowledge. Even darling to speak the name horus around space Marines can get you killed. It's not something that's talked about.

"Knowledge is power, hide it well."

Imperium citizens don't get access to what we consider basic info from the lore.

>>53418984
This. The Inquisition isnt that stupid, and all the other First Founding will back Rowboat if only because they stick together on this sort of thing, not muh primarch doesnt even enter into it.

>>53418702
>when Girlyman inevitably falls on the Inquisition's bad side?
Sniped by Orks.

>>53420178
So time has moved forward essentially?

>>53420697
We do appear to be going into 41k. The autists who wanted "plot progression" over filling out the giant near-infinite sandbox they already had, finally screeched loud enough to get their way.

>>53420034
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Roboute_Guilliman

First Founding chapters have always been able to tell the Inquisition to go fuck themselves.

Guilliman is a Primarch.

>>53420745
I honestly don't think plot progression is a bad thing by itself. I think as long as Geedubs handles this carefully, we can get a really neat (and still grimdark) setting out of this.

Which Chapter has the most Inquisitor kills?

I bet it's the Space Wolves.

>>53419091

It's got to smart that Lorgar basically won, though.

>>53420795

If Guilliman turns out to actually be Alpharius/Omegon or something it could be good.

>>53420057
But there were 9 loyalist Primarchs...

Imagine being Ultramarine Chad & chilling with your spiritual liege on Holy Terra. How happy are the Ultrasmurfs right now?

>>53423276
Lorgar is ashamed of and enraged by the Lectitio Divinitatus and targets Shrine Worlds because of that.

>>53419091

That and he kinda owes St Celestine for being alive again. She got all the shit organised.

It's kinda hard to go 'No, fuck religion it's all stupid' when a god and an angel turned up to be involved in your revival.

Guilliman has the loyalty of the Grey Knights and the Sisters of Battle. Between them and being the gene-father of half the Deathwatch, the Inquisition are some guys with pistols. Their chambers militant are loyal to Guilliman.

The audio play with Guilliman and Inquisitor Greyfax make it clear he's not afraid to issue direct commands to Inquisitors.

It's over, Inquisition fans. Bend the knee. Bow to your Lord Commander.

>>53423315

Yeah, but that's because he thinks the Emperor is unworthy of worship. The Imperial Creed probably looks like exactly what Lorgar would have wanted pre-Heresy.

>>53420329
>Imperium citizens don't get access to what we consider basic info from the lore.

Exactly. Not enough fans of the fluff realise this point.

>>53423336
It's amazing that Lorgar is one of the main reasons Imperium was able to hold for millenia.

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>>53418702
I didn't read all the gathering storm fluff. Did Guilliman say anything else than pic related about the Imperial cult ?

He was just like his father vehemently opposed to the concept of religion. It would be logical for him to dismentle the Church now that he is basically the leader of the Imperium

>>53423399
Do you realise that it'd cause another civil war?

>>53423399
he isnt dumb enough to try and take it down when he has chaos on his doorstep, and faith is the duct tape holding the place together

but he doesnt like it one bit, and might get around to setting the record straight if they survive long enough to get there

>>53423410
Yes.

But isn't it for the best ? During the Great Crusade, billions were slaughtered for far lesser signs of devotion.

>>53418702
I think it's one of those cases where theory and practise aren't the same. In theory any Inquisitor could condemn and execute Gulliman, in practise Girlyman can do whatever he likes so long as the High Lords and the various military organisations obey him, including giving orders to the Inquisition.

>>53423399
>>53423410

I think his plan is "Deal with Chaos first, then worry about the fuckwits in the Imperium who have been worshiping the Emperor."

He'll try to dismantle it eventually, but he wouldn't shoot himself in the foot like that.

OTOH there's always the chance he decides that the Imperium isn't worth saving. I could see him going "This is everything we were fighting to have *not* happen. Let the galaxy burn."

And, of course, he could always realize that the Emperor was kind of a shitbag and try doing things his own way for once.

>>53423399
If he did, why did he allow Religious buildings in his Capital city, and why were people free to worship openly across Ultramar?

>>53423439
>OTOH there's always the chance he decides that the Imperium isn't worth saving.

I would love to see a loyalist Primarch brought back in 40k, preferably one with a doubtfull alliegeance to the Imperium, *cough*Lion*cough* that turn renegade when he sees how much a pile of shit the Imperium has turned into over the millenias.

>>53420034
Cadia blows up, warp storms basically cut the galaxy in half.
Guilliman has been awakened from his life-support stasis and is now wearing a life-support armor that took 10,000 years to build and he brings with him space marines 2.0 that took 10,000 years to create.

>>53423475

If you take Guilliman's armor off, would he die? Is Fulgrim's poison still affecting him?

>>53423491
It would be extremely painful

>>53423498
He's a big guy.

>>53423426
Yeah, but in the Great Crusade things fared far better, the Imperium wasn't besieged by as much shit as it is right now and most importantly the ENTIRE population of the imperium wasn't worshipping the Emperor and everything related to it.

>>53423502
For you.

>>53423491
Yes, he would probably die.

I could actually see the Imperium breaking apart.

Under Rouboute, we end up having Ultramar become the core of a new Imperium; Terra remaining the core of the old Imperium, and something new emerging on the other side of the warp rift.

>>53420795
It's still Grimdark and its still basically the same. Even more Grimdark now because the have a Noblelight hero fighting a hopeless, pointless battle to keep a society he hates chugging along.

>>53419201
>beast arises
>cuck library

That is not a very good source anon.

>>53418931
What if Rowboat is the Eldar/Chaos God of Revenge?

Eldar brought him back to life, Realm of Ultramar have been shipping him for 10k years.

>>53423573
I'm thinking more an easy west Roman Empire thing. Where the rift makes it impossible to rule both halves of the galaxy from a single capital.

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>>53423735
Yeah, wouldn't surprise me if Baal ended up a new capital world for a splintered Imperium.

Ultramar's currently on the same side as Terra, so they're more likely to be united.

At least until a Primarch/Inquisition feud.

>>53423293
>A shitty shamalamalam type tweest would make things good

Into the trash.

>>53423421
>but he doesnt like it one bit

He actually had to stop himself from uttering a prayer to the Emperor at one point. He's seen enough magic shit to lose some certainty.

>>53418847
It's always been like this. Space Wolves have always been able to get away with ignoring every rule and limitation the rest of the Imperium works under.

>>53423457
Lion is like the last loyalist who would betray the Imperium. He has autistic devotion and loyalty to Emps. Hell if Rowboat wasn't around the Lion would probably be the next best choice to run the Imperium, or at least a close third behind Dorn.

>>53423426
Billions of disloyal people died, if the Imperium has a civil war over this then loyal but misguided people will die, lots of them, and at time when they don't really have the manpower to spare for purges.

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>>53420082
>>53419953
Not him, but from what I recall, pic related was said to be a picture of the high lords in... fifth ed rulebook, I think.

Now, I don't know if this picture is meant to be contemporary (999 M41), but if it is then the guy on the far left is presumably Calgar.

>>53423457
If they play up how 90% of the population are basically slaves, Corax would quickly go against the Imperium.

>>53423439
>And, of course, he could always realize that the Emperor was kind of a shitbag and try doing things his own way for once.

I think he may already be realising this.

A lot of his internal dialogue has been along the lines of "Is this what you wanted, father? Because I can't help but notice that it's sort of shit."

This is probably why he was willing to work with Yvraine. He's starting to realize that the entire mindset that lead the Imperium to where it is is fundamentally flawed.

>>53425787
True, but he might see the current Imperium as a betrayal in and of itself.

Lion isn't flexible like Robert. If he sees the Imperial cult he's not going to be smart about it and try to dissolve it slowly over many years. He'll say "No, dad said this is bad, so I'm going to hit it with my sword."

That said, if you wanted a Primarch who would fight the modern Imperium for more moral reasons, you'd want Vulkan, Jaghatai, or Sanguinius.

>>53420844
Dark Angels would like a word

>Gee I wonder what those guys are being so secretive about. Better go have a look at that Rock of theirs.

>>53418702
Even if they legally had the authority they wouldn't have anything like the military force as before they couldn't even deal with the Space wolves and now Gullykin has about 400 chapters plus the entire Administratum and Mars at his command.

>>53426421
Space wolves have the most kills on recordz
Inquisitors having "accidents" around the Dark Angels probably accounts for more Astartes related deaths than all the other chapters combined.

>>53423426
>But isn't it for the best ?
Yeah, let's split humanity in half AGAIN when a warp storm literally ripped the fucking galaxy in half and daemons are fucking everywhere. Simply for the fucking best.

>>53418702
Inquisitors are ranked higher than the High Lords of Terra. They can kill anyone if they wanted, and I'm 100% certain there are Inquisitors already planning on murdering Guilliman to save the Imperium.

>>53423386
Which has got to sting, you know - Lorgar has to be the chaos god of ironic butthurt these days.

>>53423439
>the Emperor was kind of a shitbag
let's be fair, the Emperor's vision was far better than the current Imperium.
He's, however, responsible for seeding the mindset that's currently making the Imperium it's own worst enemy:
>merciless slaughter of anyone refusing unification, like that Antarctica guys
>indiscriminate slaughter of xenos
>indirectly caused pointless hatred of Abhumans (because above)
>indrectly caused pointless hatred of harmless mutants
>too stupid to realize what a fucking dumb idea it was to treat Lorgar like that
>trying to solve every problem by bullying it (basically see above)

>>53425913
Didn't someone take the time to identify and circle every single skull in that pic?

>>53426914

>merciless slaughter of anyone refusing unification, like that Antarctica guys

Reasonable, humanity needed an united front to defend from xenos and chaos threats in his eyes, especially on the throne-world itself.

>indiscriminate slaughter of xenos

This could have been handled better, but then again xenos were what led to the downfall of the golden age of humanity, breaking their alliances to tear down human institutions.

>indirectly caused pointless hatred of Abhumans (because above)

Abhumans are allowed to exist in the imperium, and while there is some discrimination against them, their living conditions are not much worse than an imperial citizen might experience.

>indrectly caused pointless hatred of harmless mutants

When mutants are likely to be either infected with alien diseases, or chaos taint, this is justified especially to reduce genetic drift of baseline humanity.

>too stupid to realize what a fucking dumb idea it was to treat Lorgar like that

That was dumb, admittedly.

>trying to solve every problem by bullying it (basically see above)

Some problems he got Malchador to deal with.

>>53426310
Yeah I'd say the list of who's least likely to betray the Imperium goes

1. Dorn- Just as much autism and loyalty as Lion, but more flexible and stubborn enough to go down with a sinking ship
2. Lion- Extremely loyal, but could see the modern Imperium as a betrayal of the Emperors vision
3. Rowboat- Ambitious enough to set out on his own (cough-Imperium Secundus-cough) and more loyal to the people of the Imperium than to Emps himself. However he's pragmatic enough to realize that doing so would probably doom humanity as a whole.
4. Ferrus Manus- I honestly don't know much about him but Fulgrim repeatedly cloned him in an effort to make him turn traitor and every single clone flatly refused to even consider it. Sounds pretty loyal to me
5. Vulkan- Idealistic enough to stick around because he believes he can make the Imperium a better place
6. Sangy- Pretty much the same as Vulkan
7. Russ- Loyal but perfectly willing to fuck off and do his own thing if given enough cause
8 Khan- Jaghatai was always kind of an outsider and usually preferred to just ignore everyone else and do whatever the hell he wanted. He also disagreed with the direction the Emperor was taking humanity and would probably be absolutely disgusted by the modern Imperium. He'd probably still stick with the Imperium if he was allowed enough autonomy though.
9. Corax- Really wouldn't like how oppressive and tyrannical and cruel the current Imperium is.
10. Alpharius/Omegon- ????

>>53427175
>Ferrus Manus

He was loyal, but the current Imperium would absolutely disgust him, as would the state of his own Chapter.

Ferrus believed in becoming like iron and eliminating all fleshy weakness from his Marines because real humanity found in real humans was precious, and what little humanity he and his fellow Mehreens had was a worthy sacrifice if it meant being a better shield for them. He was willing to do ANYTHING to help people and let them grow and learn and live their lives freely, which is why he was so fine with bionics that increased efficiency at the cost of comfort.

He would be absolutely furious with how the modern Imperium treats people, and fucking livid at his Chapter for becoming "EVERYONE BUT US IS WEEEAAAK" space nazis.

>>53427027
>but then again xenos were what led to the downfall of the golden age of humanity, breaking their alliances to tear down human institutions.

Not really. The only sources where xenos are a major factor in mankind's fall are Imperium sources.

The real big killing blow was that humanity suddenly became a psychic race without being prepared for it. They didn't know how to deal with psyker powers, so Warp storms and daemonshit overran everything, and they didn't know how to ward shit against possession, so all their stuff started turning on them.

Aliens played a relatively minor part in the Age of Strife. It was mostly that mankind's huge psychic shitfit made them easy targets for already hostile species, like orks. It's kinda retarded to hold other races accountable for the stuff orks and xenos like them do.

>>53418902
Don't the Inquisition cut deals with the eldar all the time? Using daemoninc shit to help you fight is in a "grey area."

>>53427632

You know Ferrus wanted to get rid of his metal hands right?

>>53427933
Yeah.

He wanted to get rid of them after the Imperium was fully established and he had no need for them anymore.

>>53418878
Wait, why would space marine chapters not mind if Girlyman is killed, he is like head honcho Space Marine atm no?

>>53425913
>pic related was said to be a picture of the high lords in... fifth ed rulebook

Nowhere in the rulebook does it say anything about the image. It's just a 2 page spread with no text associated with it in any way. There has never been any fluff that says Calgar is a High Lord, nor any space marine has been a High Lord either. Guilliman specifically made it so that marines do not wield such power.

Only character you could field in 40k that was a High Lord was Macharius.

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>>53425420
Which was what made the Space Wolves fun and wacky. If everyone does it, it's lame.
Though, the Space Wolves should've gotten screwed by the Inquisition more often. Didn't they have to fight a war with the Grey Knights after Armageddon 1?

>>53426934
Yes. Made a game of "spot the skulls".

>>53426874
No they fucking aren't you mongoloid. An Inquisition honcho sits on the council.
You can trust Inqusitors to grossly exceed their authority if they think it's for the good of the Imperium though. You could make a case for every good Inquisitor regarding the self as second to only the Emperor - until reality inevitably slaps them down.

>>53418702
It's not going to happen because this is the rainbows and sunshine nu-imperium. There are no groups with different interests, everyone just accepts and doesn't question the leadership of Guilliman.

>>53418702
What is the purpose of the abs plate?

>>53423300
They probably forgot about ferris, Just like GW does.

>>53428808
To make bitches swoon and look dope as fuck.

>>53429156
>To make xeno bitches swoon and look dope as fuck.
ftfy

>>53429260
>Rowboat visits the Tau empire
>Suddenly all mental conditioning of teh Ethereals breaks
>All Tau bitches want the Gue'va dick
>The men too.
>Especially the men. no homo
>Tau empire crumbles within a month
>Easily taken over by the Imperium
>Tau and Kroot given special status like Squats and Jokaero to oper

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>>53429260
He even copied colors.

>>53418931
Ycarne looks an awful lot like a Keeper of Secrets, just putting that out there.

>>53427175
Speaking of which, how the hell would Omegon even go back to the Imperium? Considering how his legion is on top of the shit list and that he's probably on everyone's shit list.

>>53426905
Fun fact: Lorgar is a ridiculously powerful daemon prince by all accounts, but never leaves the Immaterium because he's too busy thinking about how fate made it where he both destroyed the Imperium and kept it together.

>>53429440
Well they all come from the same spring, don't they?

>>53427175
>Alpharius/Omegon-
Too busy running covert ops to dismantle the Chaos Space Marine legions while pretending to be Chaos Space Marines.

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>>53418702
I've never seen Guilliman before, I was expecting him to be insufferable with a derpy face. But something about that gorgeous aryan complexion and that blond hair and nice eyes makes me trust him.

>>53424048
Baal is going to get fucked by Hive Fleet dick. It won't be the capital of anything.

>>53423439
Isn't it retarded to try to curb religion in a setting where faith is literally power?

>>53429593
>>53418702
Kinda looks like a young trump.

Is there more recent Girlyman fluff, or is it still just the Gathering Storm books?

>>53418702
i honestly just want them to write a book on how the unforgiven lose their collective shit when they find out that cypher is on Terra and that the powers that be now know about the fallen.

>>53429610
Emps didn't fully understand what the Chaos Gods were when he instated the Imperial Truth. He thought that the Gods were powered by worship and that by eliminating religion and the worship of any gods he could starve them. Unfortunately Chaos doesn't work that way and all he actually did was make his followers more vulnerable to corruption, since they were completely ignorant of Chaos and the Gods.

>>53429316
>Like Squats
Who?

>>53429868
Yes, this is why I don't think Guilliman should do that.

I mean, if he got a tiny look at SoB he can get an instant look of how powerful faith powers can be.

>>53429996
That doesn't mean he likes it. Remember he knew the Emperor personally. He respected him, perhaps even loved him but he was no immaculate God no matter how much he may have looked it. Then he comes back to find that everyone in the Imperium are now literally fanatics about the Emperor and have completely missed the point of a lot of what Emps was trying to do. Also don't forget that faith powers or no the Ecclesiarchy is a large part of the reason the current Imperium is an oppressive shithole. Guilliman has plenty of reasons to hate the Imperial Church.

>>53430089
But then there is also the fact that the Emperor by now is 'technically' a god.

>>53418702
>ordering a Primarch around
>ORDERING GUILLIMAN AROUND

Best joke ever. The Inquisition should instead be very, VERY, careful not to upset Rowboat else he'll use his Hand of Dominion for some IMPERIAL FISTING.

>>53428358
They did, and they actually lost a lot of men there.

If one of the inquisitors on the case hadn't been a Fenrisian and hadn't basically engineered a soft mutiny to stop further bloodshed, it would have escalated to the point where Fenris probably would have been destroyed and the Wolves mostly wiped out. They didn't exactly have the upper hand toward the end of the conflict.

How the other pre-Heresy Chapters would have responded to that is anyone's guess, but it probably wouldn't have been pretty.

>>53430089
>completely missed the point of a lot of what Emps was trying to do.
Kill all religions then set himself up as one when he was ready

>>53429996
The thing is, faith powers do not actually come from the Emperor. They're just Warp mechanics, like the Waaagh!

Get enough people focusing all their will on something hard enough in 40K and you can change reality. You can theoretically do this without belief in a deity.

>>53430491
Doesnt he literally protect peoples souls when they die?

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>>53430663
Some fluff implies he does, more fluff implies he doesn't. You could probably believe whatever you want to believe there.
He does protect the living though Until the GW retcon machine catches up to the main rulebook.

>>53420329
Some do. Ciaphus Cain and Gaunt have been known to use Horus' name as a curse.

>>53430904
1. Commissars aren't indicative of an average Imperial Citizen. They're told about daemons for example.
2. You could find fluff supporting every point of view on this matter. Mark my words pursuing it further will only end in a Grognard/nucanon reeeee-fest

>>53430491
While you're completely right on the idea that faith powers are Warp-mechanics, it would be prudent to suggest that they're not entirely separate from the Emperor himself, who seems to not only be stronger than he was in mortal form these days but is also the central focus around this collective belief. Chances are the God Emperor of Mankind is a very changed, very different being than the Emperor, bound to this new faith and the maelstrom of power it has collected over millennia.

>>53430491
While technically true, only faith is strong enough to produce an events powerful enough to be miracles such as living saints.

>>53431177
That really doesn't have to be faith in a deity. It's just an easy way of getting people to have the level of unshakeable willpower required, but also an unsustainable way, because it ultimately produces inflexible shitheads that need to be later removed for progress to occur.

And I'm not sure that's even correct. I'm pretty sure that simply having enough people with their willpower focused heavily on something can achieve the same effect. Orks don't believe Gork or Mork is making their weapons work better, they essentially just believe they're awesome and therefore Warp them into working better.

The trick is producing people with this kind of willpower.

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>>53418702
Bobby G is ordering the Custodes around, I imagine the Inquisition is more worried about being turned into frontline fodder than which of their sides a Primarch resides at.

>>53430719
To be fair, the GW retcon machine is actually just reverting to even older fluff, when literally everything about the Emperor was in question.

Back in the day the Golden Throne wasn't even an actual throne, it was just how Imperials imagined his life support system to look. He was actually plugged into a grotesque Phyrexia-looking mass of tubes and wires, more along the lines of what we expect DEldar tech to look like now.

>>53431263
>but also an unsustainable way
It's not really unsustainable through. Eldar had their gods while on top of their power. Depends on the deity.

Orks weapons are essentially weaker than the Imperium blessed bullets.

>>53431318
>He was actually plugged into a grotesque Phyrexia-looking mass of tubes and wires
>Even older than the Emperor protecting all of humanity from Chaos
I thought that picture came from 2e. I didn't know it came from RT.

>>53431263
>Orks don't believe Gork or Mork is making their weapons work better, they essentially just believe they're awesome and therefore Warp them into working better.
Isn't that because the Old Ones designed Orks to work differently from everyone else?

>>53423610
>Buzzwords are an argument

>>53431318
>>53431438
It's also from a time when the official line was "everything is true and none of it is" because the fluff was a bit meta in that the players' sources were no more reliable than the Imperium's, which Gav Thorpe went a bit indepth with with his old deleted blog.
Before the new crowd came in, turned warhammer into skubhammer, and insisted their skub was the one true truth, Though Laurie Goulding recently said "Yeah, absolutely. I mean, one of the things that’s been said lots of times is that all of the IP is created equal. All of the background of Warhammer, Warhammer 40,000, the Horus Heresy – everything is cool, and I think the only way that stuff appears not cool is if people either overthink it or if not enough detail of context is given." So who even fucking knows anymore.

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>>53418702
>inevitably falls on the Inquisition's bad side?
>Implying gullet man won't convert to Emperor religion now after realizing that Secularism in the 40k universe is fucking retarded

>>53431177

Eh, psychic fuckery can do a lot.

>>53430271

If the Ecclesiarchy or Inquisition tried to exterminate the SW, even the Dark Angels would side with their fellow Astartes. SM are techincally not subject to the rule of even the High Lords; they work with the Imperium at their discretion. Obviously in practice it's different, like how in theory a newly-promoted Inquisitor could run the jewels on a High Lord of Terra but he de facto doesn't have the authority to do that.

The Ecclesiarchy has done some stupid shit to the SW too, like running transport ships full of missionaries at Fenris and refusing all hails, then getting salty when Bjorn ordered them blown out of the void.

>>53426914

More what I mean was that the Emperor objectively treated the Primarchs like shit. To be frank, Angron's betrayal can pretty much be thrown at the Emperor's feet. Even setting Chaos aside, Angron would have been perfectly justified in fucking off and doing his own thing.

I'm down with making 40k a slightly more heroic setting, but I wish they did it in a way in which it didn't involve some of the godlike setting players coming back and being relevant again. Guilliman's mini is sweet, and I'm sure the Demon Primarchs will be similarly sexy, but story-wise it'd be awesome if Guilliman gets cacked or goes nuts from how shitty the Imperium is now, and it's left to mortal man (and mortal Astartes, I suppose) to try to fix things.

I guess in the worst interpretation of what's going on, what we're seeing might be storyline *regression*, not progression.

Also, to y'all thinking Alpha Legion is actually loyalist: their psi ops are so good they apparently work on people in non-fictional universes.

>>53431737
>be awesome if Guilliman gets cacked or goes nuts from how shitty the Imperium is now, and it's left to mortal man (and mortal Astartes, I suppose) to try to fix things.

Give me one reason why he's not going to convert to the religious worship of his father and recognize himself as a demigod?

>>53431788
Because 40k is anti-organized religion and Guilliman is their paragon of virtue

>>53431846
And their virtues fucking failed due to the emperor being a sperg about organized religion.

>Most intelligent being in the galaxy
>Thinks any kind of positivist reality exists in the universe when there is magic warp powers that can bend the laws of physics whenever it feels like it
>Too stupid to realize that in every ontological sense of the term, he is a deity.
>Unironically thinks that a deity needs to be omnipotent to exist as a deity
>Was literally created out of a thousand a thousand powerful human pskyer souls rebelling against becoming the food of chaos gods
>Hurr Durr my science

Ribbit gillman can't be stupid enough to see the failure of the Imperial Creed...

>>53431941
>to see the failure of the Imperial Creed...

To not see the failure of the Imperial Creed

>>53431941

Counterpoint: Necrons. There's a way to dominance and stability that doesn't involve psychic might, though the Emperor might be the literal worst person to lead humanity there as he's literally a psychically empowered entity. And we can suspect that humanity has the power to go that direction, considering the existence of the Pariah gene, whether it was put there by the C'tan or not. Unless some sort of nega-emperor shows up, though, humanity might never get the chance.

>>53431788

Because the Eldar found a solution that's basically mythopoetics without an institutionalized organized religion that oppresses trillions. It's possible the Ecclesiarchy/Imperial Creed could be morphed into something like this, or what the Orks have, but as it stands it's a horrific institution.

Also, there is a certain level of positivism possible with the Warp/psychic stuff in general because warp-based science exists. It doesn't follow the physical laws of the universe as we understand them but the scientific method can still be used to study it. There are people irl who develop math to work with our universe in a way that doesn't rely on linear time, for example; that would obviously be much more necessary given the Warp.

>>53431846
>Because 40k is anti-organized religion
>mass belief in the Emperor is the only thing stopping chaos from devouring humanity
Really moves my marbles.

>>53418878
>Manny Calgar
>High Lord
What?

>>53418847
How does it feel to hate everything for the sake of hatred? Your complaint is simply not true at all.

>>53432184
The Imperial Creed itself is never portrayed in a positive light. Ecclisiarchs and Cardinals exist to turn to chaos or be obstructive to the protagonists and make things worse for everyone through incompetence. Even in the Sisters of Battle books that's the case.

>>53418995
So do you grim dark fags think the Horus heresy was "noble bright"? Because it's the exact same situation as gathering storm and I have literally never heard anyone complain about Horus heresy

>>53432276
That doesn't mean it's anti-organized religion. It's anti-Imperial foundation, but organized movement such as the faith in the Emperor is actually one of the things enabling humanity to survive.

And besides, if they were doing such a bad job humanity wouldn't have withstood to year 40k.

>>53429599
>Implying that they won't all be overtaken by Genestealers.
>Implying that the Genemarines won't realise the Tyranids are eating them.
>Implying that the Genemarines won't be too strong for the Tyranids.
>Implying that the Gene Angels won't rise from the ashes of the Tyranids and Astartes, leading a new hive minded Imperium under the Sanguinor-possessed Patriarch.

>>53432352
>That doesn't mean it's anti-organized religion. It's anti-Imperial foundation, but organized movement such as the faith in the Emperor is actually one of the things enabling humanity to survive.
It's true that faith and worship of the Emperor in itself is rarely portrayed as a negative, but the Imperial Cult, the organized aspect of that religion is pretty much always portrayed as bad. I think it's pretty safe to say they're anti-organized religion because that's always how the principle organized religion is portrayed.

>And besides, if they were doing such a bad job humanity wouldn't have withstood to year 40k.
I'd also agree with you here, but again, we rarely, if ever, hear about the "good" priests of the Imperial Cult, save for the ones at the lowest levels.

>>53432403
What about Eldar organized religion then?

The Eldar got fucked especifically when they left their gods over self pleasure.

>>53432289
Pretty sure everyone botched about the hours heresy books. Or do you mean the actual, canonical, event?

>>53432503
That's solid, I can't really think of a quick counterpoint to that.

>>53418847

At least it isn't the fucking grimderp ending that they gave WHF.

>>53418702
>The Inquisition
>Implying the Inquisition is a single, united entity

>>53431941
>Ribbit gillman can't be stupid enough to not see the failure of the Imperial Creed...

He also can't be stupid enough to see that the Imperial Cult is one of the greatest forces of stagnation and stupidity in the Imperium.

40K is not about accepting religion. The idea of Warp deities is not a "gods exist, worship them" message, it's a metaphor for mankind creating its gods and then turning them into tools with which to inflict suffering and tyranny. The point is that gods are a lie, anything that appears to be a deity is not in fact divine in any way. Warp entities are literally nothing more than parasites that have grown morbidly obese through mankind's ignorance and hate and psychic angst. They exist in the fluff as a personification of mankind's worst aspects, the idea in 40K is that we have to turn away from these things, not idolize them.

The Eldar pre-Fall are basically the example of how shit should be. All the Eldar gods were originally psychic constructs consciously created for a purpose - the purpose of fighting a terrible evil. They represent a species actualizing its potential and controlling its own psyche, rather than being controlled by it. Only after the Eldar culture went into a long period of degeneration did they forget that they created their own gods as weapons, and start worshiping them. And, whaddya know, it was soon after this that they went careening out of control as a species and gave birth to Slaanesh.

Stop trying to argue against the core themes of 40K.

>>53418702
I actually think it would be really cool if there was some sort of Cold War between the Imperium either siding with girlyman or the Inquisition

>>53432892
Not him anon, but the chaos gods would have existed even without religion.

Also the Eldar gods weren't entirely nice. The warp initially got fucked because of the lizards, now the warp was always fucked up.

>>53432352
>And besides, if they were doing such a bad job humanity wouldn't have withstood to year 40k.

The point is that they're doing a bad job, though.

The Imperium runs almost entirely on the inertia of better times. It persists by being too big to fall all at once. All the religious interference and bureaucratic shit and logistical stupidity IS destroying the Imperium, bit by bit. The fluff makes it very clear in every edition that things are only getting worse and the Imperium is for the most part just compounding all its own problems.

The Imperium only looks healthy from the inside, and from certain perspectives, because it's so huge and the ruling elite are so removed from the actual reality of the situation and so limited in vision that they can't possibly fathom the size of the Imperium itself, let alone the size of its problems.

>>53432952
>Not him anon, but the chaos gods would have existed even without religion.

Yes. This is correct. The Emperor was mistaken in his belief that ignorance would save mankind, but the Imperial Cult of the modern Imperium is basically the Church of Ignorance anyway. The Cult perpetuates all the Emperor's mistakes and keeps none of the goods stuff.

>Also the Eldar gods weren't entirely nice.

They weren't, but they were consciously thought into existence as weapons at first, and served the race that made them rather than the other way around. They only became assholes due to the Eldar forgetting their ancient past and creating a mythology around these psychic constructs out of what they remembered of the War in Heaven.

>>53432637
see
>>53432892

The first step in the descent of the Eldar was the mythologizing of their past.

>>53432963
While you are right the bureaucracy is struggling it, I must add that the orderly society is actually shielding humanity from falling into the hand of their enemies.

It's hard to say they are doing a bad job when you consider this is the world where there is a literally unstoppable plague of creatures that only live to wage war, a race of immortal machines bent on erradicating life and an entire galatic invasion of assimilating creatures. Also when a bad thought in a moment of hopeless is enough to make you suddenly spout tentacles and go on a rampage.

>>53433039
In which book it says that Eldar mythologizing their past made them give themselves to self pleasure? Or that it somehow hurt their great empire?

>>53418702
>What do you think's gonna happen when Girlyman inevitably falls on the Inquisition's bad side?

Nothing, as Guilliman is the only surviving Primarch the Astartes at large know of (don't think it's public knowledge that the Lion is back yet) and the Inquisition wouldn't risk having 999 marine chapters (so, discounting the Minotaurs) burning down half the Imperium because they tried to tell a Primarch what do.

The relationship between Marines and the Inquisition is already tenuous enough as-is due to how fiercely independent both organizations are in an Empire that encourages blind obedience.

>>53429896
I believe they go by the name Kahadron Overlords nowadays.

>>53433049
>I must add that the orderly society is actually shielding humanity from falling into the hand of their enemies

It's also dooming mankind to a slow descent into ruin. The blind faith in bureaucracy and in the tenets of the Ecclesiarchy that the Imperium is built on is preventing mankind from effectively reversing their abject state. There are canonically tons of advances that COULD be made by the Imperium, that are literally in its lap, but aren't because of Ecclesiarchal doctrine. The Imperium canonically wastes billions of lives starting and perpetuating wars that bring it nothing of value and do nothing but squander resources, out of nothing but doctrinal xenophobia, constantly limiting the ability of its considerable armies to ever effectively deal with any real problems once and for all. You can have security without stupidity.

>It's hard to say they are doing a bad job

It's not hard, the fluff flat out tells you that the Imperium is shit.

>Also when a bad thought in a moment of hopeless is enough to make you suddenly spout tentacles and go on a rampage.

That's not really how Chaos works though.

>>53432276

In the SOB books the actual faith is generally good. It's the fact the Ecclessiarchy is more physical than spiritual that causes the issue.

>>53433113

This. It's really interesting to see how people (including GW themselves) have missed the point of the "Grimdark".

The Warhammer 40,000 universe isn't grimdark because it's a shitty place, it's grimdark because it absolutely doesn't have to be grimdark but it is because everyone within it is retarded. The point of 40k is to LAUGH at fascism and the Imperium's draconian, inefficient bullshit. The Horus Heresy is a tragedy specifically BECAUSE what was the closest humanity had ever come to a utopia did a 90 degree turn and morphed into this Hyper-Religious shithole that actively erodes its own potential for greatness.

>>53433061

Probably said so in anon's favorite fedora-themed tumblr. (You know, the one without too much interracial furry porn)

>>53418995

>batshit crazy inquisitor

So you've got a good 50% of inquisitors to choose from then.

>>53433113
>tons of advances
Such as?

>out of nothing but doctrinal xenophobia
Anon, eldar and taus are jerkasses. Eldar literally blow up human planets if they have a vision telling something who may happen in the future.


>It's not hard, the fluff flat out tells you that the Imperium is shit.
Everything is shit.

>That's not really how Chaos works though.
It technically is through. Like for example in Kaurava, where almost half the imperial guard feel to it. Only those with a very powerful willpower or belief can resist it.

>>53433113

>There are canonically tons of advances that COULD be made by the Imperium, that are literally in its lap, but aren't because of Ecclesiarchal doctrine.

Which ones?

>>53418702
Bobby commands MOTHERFUCKING CUSTODES, to whom even inquisitors bow in reverance, to do shit, and they obey. He ORDERS CUSTODES, and they LISTEN.

If anyone speaks against Bobby, it's them who burns on a stake.

I just realised that 40K has gone down the same path as Dune.


So, there was the original dune series, that took place over eight thousand years. It had a few major factions, the Bene Gesserit, the spacing guild, Ix, and so on. There was a story that played out between them, they united, they fought between themselves, so on.

Then Frank died and his son started writing prequels. People complained, but at least you could ignore them, they didn't change the main story of Dune. They introduced a few new major powers, most notably the cyborgs and house Vernius. Some people liked them, others thought they were ascended fanfiction, but they could be ignored.

Then Kevin stared writing interquels and sequels to Dune. He started retconning the earlier books as in-universe unreliable narrators, and then, in the sequels set eight thousand years after his fanwank was last relevant, he reintroduces his cyborgs and house vernius. This makes reading them chronologically make no sense, as these huge powers disappear only to reappear several thousands of years later with no real explanation.


With 40K, we had a grimdark setting where everything was in stasis, the Imperium was falling apart, all was shit. The Primarchs were there from the start, but at first they were really nobodies and even by 3ed they only existed as a few paragraphs of text and a Blanche sketch maybe.

Then the Horus heresy series started, and turned the Primarchs from being long forgotten relics, irrelevant to the main story, into hyper-important demigods whose personalities fuel the entire 30K setting.

So then what do they do? They move on from 40K into 41K, and decide to bring the primarchs back. It makes complete sense if you've been reading the horus heresy for years, but if you tried reading things chronologically you'd go for ten thousand years where they were pretty much forgotten and then BAM! We need to resurrect Gullyman all of a sudden NOW, when it should be "Who? Oh yeah, him, didn't he die?"

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>>53433224
>liking 40K, an anti-religion, anti-fascist satire created by a bunch of atheist Brits with a bone to pick with Thatcherism and Christianity
>hating on atheists and pretending that your favorite science-fantasy universe isn't a condemnation of organized religion because that hurts your fee fees

Being this stupid is almost a gift.

>>53433200
>The Warhammer 40,000 universe isn't grimdark because it's a shitty place, it's grimdark because it absolutely doesn't have to be grimdark but it is because everyone within it is retarded.
Tell me anon how you would make a democratic peaceful nation in a world where there are xeno species which the only reason haven't wiped out the world is because they are killing themselves, a dimension crawling with literally demons who can rip the fabric of reality, as I said before a race of immortal machines which objective is to cleanse life and an upcoming invasion of a race that devours galaxies anon.

You are very mistaken if you believe Warhammer is only grimdark because humanity personal failures.

>>53433300

Except the major religious faction (The Adepta Sororitas) are very rarely portrayed as stupid due to that faith.

Heck, said faith makes them objectively better at it.

It's less 'Anti-religion' and more 'The ecclessiarchy is corrupt'

>>53433300
Not him anon, but I take that since you didn't reply to my statement you really were talking out of your headcanon.

>>53433300

Marines dont arrest sex pistols listenning punks anymore anon, the universe grew on its own.

>>53433276
>Such as?

How about the stuff aboard Ark Mechanici? That stuff is canonically left alone because of the belief that interfering with it would profane it. Or alien technology that the Imperium comes by constantly but never adapts?

>Anon, eldar and taus are jerkasses.

I'm not surprised that your knowledge of the fluff is so thin, you think I'm only talking about Eldar. The fluff is full of examples of xenos that literally wanted no trabble, but were attacked anyway. Some of them, like Tarellians or the Demiurg, have since then become sworn enemies of mankind due to these unprovoked attacks, thereby giving mankind even more problems.

Also, the Eldar doctrine of always trick first with the Imperium canonically came about when they tried warning the Imperium during the Heresy, and were shot at for their trouble. Eldar did not interact with humanity that way before then.

Tau are pretty much shitheads, though they're shitheads that would be open to diplomacy if the Imperium actually seriously tried it.

>Everything is shit.

Yes, and the point is that the Imperium actively keeps it shit.

>Like for example in Kaurava

Seriously using DoW fluff for your argument?

In any case, Kaurava had an actual Chaos Lord on it spreading the taint of Chaos. People don't randomly just burst into daemons by feeling bad. If they did, almost everyone in 40K would be dead, because the life of most of the Imperium's subjects is an existence of excruciating, hopeless labor. Which, yes, does create the ideal conditions for Chaos taint, but bad thoughts do not just instantly make people go chaos spawn the moment they cross a person's mind.

>>53433402
>How about the stuff aboard Ark Mechanici?

Isn't that mechanicus doctrine, not Ecclessiarchy?

>>53433323
You're talking to multiple people.

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Guilliman should deny the Minotaurs Chapter Chadmarine reinforcement for being dicks.

The highlords who control them probably will be none too happy...

>>53433419
It's kinda both.

The Ecclesiarchy also supports the idea that technology is to be held in fear and awe rather than investigated. There's just a lot less fear and a lot more awe in the AdMech.

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>>53419288
Probably both.
Most likely to drown out Sicarius.

>>53433442
>The Ecclesiarchy also supports the idea that technology is to be held in fear and awe rather than investigated.

I'm not sure I've ever read the Ecclessiarchy saying that outside of those 'Oh god, stop meddling with Necron stuff' moments in the SOB/Mechanicus book.

>>53423334
What is the audio play called?

>>53433359
see
>>53423399

Bobby is being presented as the voice of reason and hope in the current edition, and he agrees with literally everything that anon says.

You may not like it, but 40K still about how shit fascism and organized religion are. You can argue all you want about how you interpret the fluff, but Games Workshop are TELLING you through Girlyman that all these things are bad for the Imperium and have turned it to shit.

>>53427758

Humanity were always psychic, provided they haven't completely retconned Emps origin.

Old Night was begun begun by the Eldar who, had retiring to a small corner of the galaxy to murderfuck each other into a coma, birthed Slaanesh.
This proceeded to completely carpet the galaxy in warp storms, cutting the nascent human empire from their homeworld.
After the Fall, isolated worlds were picked off by various xenos races, including the initial groups of what would become Dark Eldar.
I don't know if Emps knew what caused the birth of Slaanesh, but from his point of view the only way to save humanity from being helpless against xenos was to go full realpolitik and simply make the human state as groß as possible while knocking down the alien's sandcastles. It wasn't so much hatred as neccessary to make humanity the biggest kid in the playground so nobody else was a threat.

>>53433491
>Bobby is being presented as the voice of reason and hope in the current edition, and he agrees with literally everything that anon says.

Except for those bits where St Celestine is one of his biggest allies and they respect each other.

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>>53432148
>Necrons

Counter point: Warp

>>53432892
>Gods don't exist
>Gods do exist

Pick one

>Gods only exist to oppress people

No.

Is this it? Is this the only arguments you people can muster? Warp based science that is essentially impossible to have any consistency behind it, whose whole basis behind the science is being anti positivist?

>>53433313
>Except the major religious faction (The Adepta Sororitas) are very rarely portrayed as stupid due to that faith.

They're definitely portrayed as doing some silly things. I don't recall if it's a Ciaphas Cain book or another, as it's been ages since I read it, but I specifically remember a Canoness charging too high to try to smite her foes and literally killing herself.

The Adepta Sororitas has a nuanced depiction, as it's got members that do good deeds, but the blind hate and zealotry are almost never shown in a good light. The Adepta is also shown as incredibly, unfeasibly cruel at times and is essentially an abusive brainwashing death cult at its core. The depictions of Sororitas spending their lives wracked with guilt over tiny shit and functioning as blunt instruments with little free will is never a good thing.

I don't know what to say to you if you think it is.

>>53433491
>You may not like it, but 40K still about how shit fascism and organized religion are. You can argue all you want about how you interpret the fluff, but Games Workshop are TELLING you through Girlyman that all these things are bad for the Imperium and have turned it to shit.

Then why is St Celestine one of the trio of great heroes here to save the Imperium?

>>53433514
>Humanity were always psychic, provided they haven't completely retconned Emps origin.

Correct. There were isolated psykers among humanity before.

The Age of Strife was kicked off by the sudden appearance of human psykers in large quantities.

>>53433577
>abusive brainwashing death cult at its core.

Oh yeah because it's so bad trying to prevent people being murder fucked to death by Slaanesh. How oppressive. Praise murder fuck.

>>53418702
>Do they even have the authority to give the Spiritual Liege orders?
No, and that's what's going to GET him on their bad side. They'll resent having an obvious superior who isn't an undead abomination stuck in a machine and unable to communicate.

>>53429593
It's sad that he's an incredibly nice guy to the common Imperial.

>>53433548
You said nothing in that post, and did nothing but misrepresent the arguments of others.

>Warp based science that is essentially impossible to have any consistency behind it, whose whole basis behind the science is being anti positivist?

I don't think you understand what that means.

It is not an antipositive statement to say that the 'gods' in 40K are not divine, or that they're parasites. Both are hard facts within the setting. They're not gods, they're literally just creatures from another dimension that are made up of and feed on psychic energy.

>>53433402
How would those advances stop the Tyranids for example?

Also anon that's really not an argument against authoritarism. It could be against fanatism, but the empire could still be authoritarian, fanatical and study alien tech. Also a point that I must say is that in Warhammer you really shouldn't go messing with things that you don't know about, seeing for example you could be disturbing a necron crypt or accidentaly starting a demon invasion.

>I'm not surprised that your knowledge of the fluff is so thin
Actually it's more that the Eldar and Tau are the major species. I really didn't have to say but all other xenos 'diplomatic' races are worthless in the big scheme.

Also anon the Eldar always despised humanity, much because of envy since they were a superior species who lost their post to humanity. Ah yes, and the Eldar did kill innumerable other xenos.

>Yes, and the point is that the Imperium actively keeps it shit.
Well anon, feel free to say what the Imperium should do to fix this setting. I'm waiting.

>Seriously using DoW fluff for your argument?
Is it non-canon?

People don't go bursting into demons because people have since birth faith into the Emperor. If you had read the fluff you would see that people only fall into chaos when they lose faith in their deity, like Horus and the Word Bearers.

>>53433577

>functioning as blunt instruments with little free will is never a good thing.

...the sisters are like the one imperial faction you can't say that about. Considering they are much, much too versatile and wide ranging to call blunt instruments.

The Hospitalers, the Dialogus, the Famulous and the actual Battle Sisters.

The Marines, Guard, Assassins, Mechanicus? Yeah, you could argue that with them but they are like the one nuanced and non-limited faction in the imperium.

>>53433589
Notice that even she is supporting Guilliman and his less doctrinal approach. She literally vouched for Yvraine to be allowed into his throne room.

She's still not meant to be the voice of reason like Gullymain, but hey, she's good at fighting Chaos and not EVERYONE can be correct all the way through, otherwise the Imperium would stop being grimdark.

>>53433596
>Oh yeah because it's so bad trying to prevent people being murder fucked to death by Slaanesh. How oppressive. Praise murder fuck.

...Do you really think the only way to fight Slaanesh is to give a heavily corrupt death cult a private army made up of orphan girls who are pretty much beaten and brainwashed into being unquestioning zealots? If you do, then dang, you sound like the perfect Khorne cultist.

>>53433577

>I don't recall if it's a Ciaphas Cain book or another, as it's been ages since I read it, but I specifically remember a Canoness charging too high to try to smite her foes and literally killing herself.

Citation required? As that's something I've not heard.

Not that the Ciaphas Cain books are exactly a good example of 'X is seen as stupid' as those books are literally every single faction being dumb as a rock. It's a Blackadder/Flashman copy.

>>53433719

>Notice that even she is supporting Guilliman and his less doctrinal approach. She literally vouched for Yvraine to be allowed into his throne room.

That's not new.

I mean, that's in the very first SOB book. The SOB hate Witches, not Psykers. There is a long conversation on the difference and separation.

The second SOB book has them working with someone infected with necron technology.

>>53433641
That's because everyone just posted a bunch of a priori nonsense. None of it attacked my post on the ontological order of what makes something a "god". The Chaos gods are immortal beings of pure energy whose servants are reflections of themselves, making them the Leviathan of a whole. This makes them gods.

>They're not gods they are parasites, that's not anti positivity to say

Butthurt Chad marine detected , they are anti positivity just to exist. Positivism is based on finding an objective and universal order in the universe based on the scientific method. Warp energy shits all over the scientific method , and warp science is a futile attempt to attack objectivity to the essentially unobjective.

Also, gods don't simply exist to oppress people in 40k. Prove me wrong.

>>53433719
>Do you really think the only way to fight Slaanesh is to give a heavily corrupt death cult a private army made up of orphan girls who are pretty much beaten and brainwashed into being unquestioning zealots?

Yes. If you think otherwise you might as well like yourself up and wait for Slaanesh's superior trap dick to impale you. 40k isn't grim dark for no reason.

>>53433440
Nah the Minotaurs have suddenly sustained massive losses and require 10000 nu-marines and the best gear mars has.

>>53433719
Anon, giving yourself to own emotions is dangerous in wh40k. The only way to do so is having controlling ideology like a Tau or having something to protect yourself, like the Emperor.

>>53433719

>She's still not meant to be the voice of reason like Gullymain

She's literally the person who talked down the people about to start fighting in the throne room and the person who was the person with the driving arc to get the inquisitor to admit that the alliance was needed.

Most of her role in the story was to be the voice of reason/the glue holding the alliance together.

>>53433743
>attack objectivity to the essentially unobjective.

Fuck mobile, "attach" objectivity to what is impossibly absurd.

Part 1

>>53433669
>How would those advances stop the Tyranids for example?

How would the stuff in Ark Mechanicus ships help against Tyranids? You realize there are weapons aboard those things that can create black holes, right?

>I really didn't have to say but all other xenos 'diplomatic' races are worthless in the big scheme.

They're unimportant in the macro-scale of the fluff. The Hrud, for example, will never be really relevant on their own. But the Imperium's interactions with them ARE important. It is important that the Imperium is shown wasting resources on fighting dudes like Tarellians and Demiurg, creating small problems all over the place, because the point of the Imperium is that it's the culmination of constant bad decisions all over.

>Also anon the Eldar always despised humanity

Not remotely canon. Eldar have always been arrogant as fuck, but we have tons of sources where they act amicably toward humans. Eldar are a hugely varied faction with a ton of different political opinions and leanings going on. You have Autarchs who are willing to relocate humans to new worlds, you have Corsairs who are willing to attack and kill Dark Eldar solely to save humans... and then you have Eldar who are not just willing, but eager, to condemn entire human populations for being on their Maiden Worlds.

>Well anon, feel free to say what the Imperium should do to fix this setting

Stop hoarding technology without using it. Streamline its bureaucracy. Stop picking pointless fights when it has Tyranids and Quadruple Satan to deal with. Gradually limit the powers of the Ecclesiarchy. Gradually increase the flow and dissemination of information, as ignorance of proven 100% to the main contributor to Chaos corruption.

Of course, the point of the setting is that it's all gotten so bad that reversing is all but impossible now, but these are the kinds of things the Imperium would have to do to get its shit together.

>>53433880
Part 2

>Is it non-canon?

It's simplified fluff for the stories of the game. It's not bad but it's very much dumbed down for newcomers to the universe to understand.

>People don't go bursting into demons because people have since birth faith into the Emperor.

There are billions of humans all over the galaxy that have never heard of the Emperor, but don't just explode into daemons. There are also billions of aliens that don't believe in him but don't turn Chaos.

>If you had read the fluff you would see that people only fall into chaos when they lose faith in their deity

Uh, no. If you had read the fluff you'd know that tons of inquisitors and priests fall to Chaos thinking they're serving the Emperor.

>>53433674
>much too versatile and wide ranging to call blunt instruments.

That's pretty much how the Militant Orders are always portrayed.

Like I said, the Sororitas are one of the most nuanced factions in 40K, also one of my favorites. Their mortification of themselves and slavish devotion is not presented by the fluff as a positive trait. POV characters in the Imperium see it that way, but that's not how it's depicted.

>>53420745
You mean literally fucking everyone ever? Fuck off, you strawmanning neverhappy shithead. I'm sick of you and anyone like you. All that was ever seen here on threads before Sigmar and now 8th edition was how people wanted things to move forwards. That's not just anecdotal evidence, I fucking DEFY you to find any kind of large group of posts on this board or any other that wanted things to stay the way they were. There are always contrarians like you waiting in the wings until you hear something that slightly changes the status quo in a way that doesn't suit you so you can leap forth and bitch. Don't you have anything better to do than be a bitter asshole?

On topic, I thought this was all kind of answered by way of implication in the books? With the inclusion of people like Celestine who got called into question by a puritanical inquisitor like Greyfax, I thought this would have been open and shut.

>>53433743
>The Chaos gods are immortal beings of pure energy whose servants are reflections of themselves, making them the Leviathan of a whole. This makes them gods.

Why does that make them gods?

In fact, that is absolutely not how any gods function their mythologies. The gods we've traditionally worshiped have not been dependent on us at all, but rather, we are dependent on them.

You would be hard pressed to find any religion in real life where the main pantheon is a bunch of psychic parasites that NEED the belief of lesser beings to exist.

>>53433899

>Their mortification of themselves and slavish devotion is not presented by the fluff as a positive trait. POV characters in the Imperium see it that way, but that's not how it's depicted.

When is it portrayed badly? As the SOB are almost always the 'Good' faithful group compared to the corrupt Ecclessiarchy, which is why they get faith powers and most Eclessiarchy stuff doesn't.

Being the group, for example, trying to oppose the Flesh Tearers attacking imperial civilians or heck, being the first imperial group to work with the Eldar in the most recent storyline.

I think it's less 'Faith is bad' and more 'Some types of faith is bad'.

>>53433880
>How would the stuff in Ark Mechanicus ships help against Tyranids? You realize there are weapons aboard those things that can create black holes, right?

Considering that the Necrons are not sure if theie united empire would be able to take on the Tyranids, whatever the Admech has in its basement is irrelevant.

>>53418906

That's basically all the High Lords as well, who are so advanced in age as to need Tech-Priest levels of cybernetic life-support systems to keep them alive. Guilliman's just doubles as being pretty good in a firefight as well.

>>53433743
>Warp energy shits all over the scientific method

Not really. The Warp is something that can be studied and controlled in 40K. It can be observed in a way that we cannot, as far as we know, observe the divine IRL.

It even has established laws in how it interacts with the real world, like how emotion and belief can coalesce in the Warp and gain its own sentience. The Warp can be studied in 40K and therefore is indeed subject to the scientific method.

>>53433936
The Chaos Gods are not dependent on mortals for their existence. They exist outside of space and time making them eternal.

Chaos is said to be eternal and self devouring and self creating in an endless loop.

Also in DnD, the gods require faith to exist. You know what? They are still called gods. Your definition of godhood is wank. Stop it. Use a dictionary.

>>53433975
>Also in DnD, the gods require faith to exist.

Admitting that you get understanding theology from D&D would probably considered a bad move by most.

>>53419288
nah, he is most likely banging his Eldar waifu to relieve his stress.

>>53433950
If that's the case, everything is irrelevant.

Currently we don't know of a force in 40K that can match the old Necron empire at its height. Even the Emperor would have been completely outmatched by that.

>>53433936
>In fact, that is absolutely not how any gods function their mythologies. The gods we've traditionally worshiped have not been dependent on us at all, but rather, we are dependent on them.

I said

>Whose servants are reflections of themselves

So know even under you're definition they are still gods, and if you honestly think the Imperium of Man is not dependent on the Emperor of Mankind as though he were a Good then you might want to re read some lore. And it depends on what religion you are talking about, because that's not the way it is with Shinto, or European Paganism.

>Psychic parasites
>Parasites
>Followers equal parasites

Yes, in 40k man created gods and not the other way around. That does not still make them gods. The chaos gods do not require belief to exist, they require man to exist at all. The chaos gods are a reflection of the consciousness of sentient beings created via psychic power. You don't have to believe in them for them to exist.

>>53433999
I am working with what's in Neverwinter : Mask of the Betrayer.

The former God of the Dead used the curse and the faith of a single guy to cling to existence.

Also one of the reason for the creation of the wall was to encourage mortals to be faithful.

>>53433880
>You realize there are weapons aboard those things that can create black holes, right?

Good job anon, create a black hole in your own systems. Surely that won't go wrong.

Also wiping those smaller factions are not bad in pragmatic terms. You remove potential competitors and get more living space.

And we also have tons of stuff of Eldars being shitheads, like I said of wiping entire planets because muh visions.

Also congrats on wiping out the Imperium when every colony decides they prefer to have other systems of goverment.

>>53433933
Except I don't hate all new fluff or all retcons, but to say that's never been the case is flat out wrong. Fluff progression has always met with hostility to some extent on /tg/. But it's probably a pointless thing to argue with you since you're probably one of those fags to whom 8e has given their favorite ammo: "If you dislike new fluff you're just a grognard who hates anything new, if you try to explain why you dislike it, I'll just dismiss it out of hand and call you a grognard who hates anything new."

You autists are as awful as the autistic faggots who screech "NUCANON REEEEEEEEEEE" at everything they -think- was released in the last decade.

>>53418878
If, somehow, the Inquisition was able to assassinate Guilliman, he would no go down quietly, and by the time he is dead, a large portion of Space Marine chapters would know and know who did it, no way Guilliman would die without leaving some evidence to point his murder to the ones responsible, and if that happened, the Inquisition would burn, as the vast majority of Space Marine chapters would come down on their heads without any hesitation. Theres no way the Inquisition would survive.

>>53434023
>Currently we don't know of a force in 40K that can match the old Necron empire at its height.

The Eldar Empire?

>>53434025
>because that's not the way it is with Shinto

Just noting here, the actual major pantheon of Shintoism is not, in fact, powered by human belief. They predate mankind and are its creators. Or, two of them are.

Minor kami are not the same as what we'd call gods in the western canon. They're more like daemons as the Greeks understood them.

By the way, this is probably why 40K used the spelling 'daemon', because 40K warp creatures are actually closer to those in concept than gods.

>>53433306
It is dumbass. If hours heresay never happended and Emps didn't die humanity would have won already by now.

>>53433973
>It even has established laws in how it interacts with the real world, like how emotion and belief can coalesce in the Warp and gain its own sentience. The Warp can be studied in 40K and therefore is indeed subject to the scientific method.

Noticing general patterns in the warp does not even begin to describe the Immaterium's absurdity and will of it's own. Being able to notice a certain trend does not mean that the warp in itself is the antithesis to secular thought. There is even a god of nihilism in 40k that is a god of unbelief. In 40k will created reality in a Nietzsche-esque manner.

>>53433899
So it's canon. Okay.

>There are billions of humans all over the galaxy that have never heard of the Emperor, but don't just explode into daemons.
But they have other systems of faith.

> There are also billions of aliens that don't believe in him but don't turn Chaos.
They have other systems of faith, a very powerful doctrine such as the greater good or don't have psychic power.

>Uh, no. If you had read the fluff you'd know that tons of inquisitors and priests fall to Chaos thinking they're serving the Emperor.
They usually fall thinking they know more than the Emperor and perverting the doctrine.

But point me someone who feel to chaos who fully believed in the Emperor and didn't break church doctrine or gave up to his feelings.

>Galaxy is split in two
>Theres a "dark" imperium, its just a name for now

I think its pretty clear whats going to happen. Some idiot with actual clout is going to go against Row-boat and lead a cruade of their own, splitting imperial forces in two (probably on either side of the rift) including the inqusition so we get a old ways vs new civil war.

Hell it will probably be another primarch.

>>53434080
>Noticing general patterns in the warp does not even begin to describe the Immaterium's absurdity and will of it's own.

The mere fact that it can be observed does make it subject to the scientific method. Only the completely unobservable is outside of science.

>Being able to notice a certain trend does not mean that the warp in itself is the antithesis to secular thought.

I don't think anyone was even arguing this.

>>53434076
Yes and in Shinto gods simply exist, you are not necessary completely dependent on them. Gods in Shinto are just sort of different beings of given modalities.

>>53434079
>It is dumbass. If hours heresay never happended and Emps didn't die humanity would have won already by now.
How would that stop a gazillion tyranids ships or god knows how many necron worlds from awakening?

Things would be better, sure, but don't go saying this would be a good place to live. And look that I didn't say chaos, because we are betting that the Emperor plan to get rid of them actually worked.

>>53434033
That's one setting, where the rules were rewritten (after that god's death... he was quite the forward thinker) to require that.

>>53420034
Bobby G. becomes the Not!Emperor of the IoM and gets himself a T H I C C Eldar girlfriend

>>53434089
>But they have other systems of faith.

The Interex had no faith.

>They have other systems of faith

Bro, how do you know? Rak'Gol certainly don't seem to have a religion. Kroot don't appear to have a religion.

It is never stated anywhere that not having faith in 40K makes you explode. EVER. That ain't canon whatsoever, you've made that up. Golden Age humanity was explicitly all about reason and science and not faith.

>>53434103
>The mere fact that it can be observed does make it subject to the scientific method

Except you cannot describe the whole , only one function of the Immaterium which is fundementally impossible to fully control or create a universal law for that stays universal. Positivism is based on the concrete and the Immaterium, by it's definition , is the abstract that can change all laws of physics ad infinitum.

This isn't even going into the fundementally existence of chaos gods.

>>53434159
>Except you cannot describe the whole

I can't describe the whole of physical existence either.

Still subject to science.

>>53434159
>Except you cannot describe the whole , only one function of the Immaterium

We can't describe all of our universe either. We still do science on it to figure it out.

>which is fundementally impossible to fully control

How do you know? The Old Ones and the prehistory Eldar knew how to consciously create warp constructs.

>or create a universal law for that stays universal

So far it seems pretty universal and consistent that emotion + time + density in the materium = sentience in the immaterium.

>>53434177
It's almost like Positivism irl is retarded as well :^). Except we don't live in a universe that literally has parts of it exist to defy all possible universal laws.

>>53434225
>Except we don't live in a universe that literally has parts of it exist to defy all possible universal laws.

We definitely have things in our universe that seem to defy the laws we've made so far. We're still trying to understand many of those things.

>>53434151
Where it says the Interex were atheistic?

Does the Kroot have psychic power at least on human level? The others?

Good job not reading my post.

>>53418847
I hate how 40k isn't going to be grimdark anymore, with Guilliman being a "good" guy in a setting where no good people should exist. If fans don't like the tone of 40k, they should leave 40k, It's not for them.

>>53434222
>Create
>Control

Pick one , also sauce on the Old Ones being able to create gods. That in itself does not make the Immaterium less absurd btw.

>Emotion is the only thing that dictates the Immaterium

No

>>53434245
Yes but in our universe there can be a possible universal law given to certain systems. The Immaterium literally has not order. It was created to be the opposite of order in the 40k mythos.

>>53434121
You are dumb as shit. If the emperor was still alive and in charge mankind's technological prowess would never have stagnated. Humanity would probably have new weapons and tech more than capable of combating tyranid and necrons

>>53434273
>sauce on the Old Ones being able to create gods

Not him.

The Eldar through the guidance of the Old Ones created Warp constructs to act as their weapons against the C'tan and their Necron legions.

As the Old Ones started dying out, the Eldar started worshipping their own creations until they eventually evolved into Warp Gods. Thus was born the Eldar Pantheon.

Source is Liber Chaotica (Slaanesh).

>>53434246
>Where it says the Interex were atheistic?

You're right that it never states this. They are however never indicated to have any religion, and scoff at supersition. They look at 'Kaos' as a scientific subject.

>Does the Kroot have psychic power at least on human level?

Kroot are indeed confirmed to have psykers. In fact, since they adapt by taking the genes of other species, many of them probably have the exact same predisposition for psyker powers as humans.

There is literally no fluff stating that any sentient being without faith will explode via Chaos dickedry. NO FLUFF OF THIS NATURE EXISTS. You've completely made this up. Faithless humans do not immediately explode. The ONLY species that needs 100% self control at all times is the Eldar, because they're all psykers and they have Slaanesh's eye on them specifically. And even they didn't need to live like this pre-Slaanesh.

>>53434304
>insults
Put the money where your mouth is then. Prove that humanity would have a weapon that could defeat a race of locust galatical devourers who already consumed several other galaxies.

>>53434331
>devoured several other galaxies
That is all theory and was never proven

>>53418702
Why Rob of all primarchs? The man already has so much screen time in HH, now he's getting more? Give some other primarchs more love. I'm sick of hearing about this guy, GW acts like he's the only loyalist primarch that matters. They could have brought back the Lion, Khan, Dorn, Vulkan, or Corax. Heck, I would even take Manus or Sanguinius being resurrected. Guilliman was always the boring one of the bunch and all the other primarchs were treated as flawed people, while Rob was portrayed as morally perfect.

>>53434327
Scoff at superstition? Source?

I must point that was at the time of The Imperial Truth, so I don't see why that would be brought up.

>Kroot are indeed confirmed to have psykers.

>Kroot who have fed upon creatures with psychic power may develop powers of their own. These Kroot are referred to as Shamans by their kindreds, and are responsible for leading their fellow Kroot in their ancestor worshipping practises.
^

>There is literally no fluff stating that any sentient being without faith will explode via Chaos dickedry.
There is fluff however that someone weak willed with considerable psych power will fall into chaos, since chaos is powered by uncontrolled emotional power. This is why I said faith or a very powerful doctrine like the Tau does.

>>53434361
Maybe because he is the primarch of all the most quintessential space marine chapter or maybe because he is the creator of the adeptes astartes or maybe because he is by far the best leader and organizer of the primarch and the only one qualified to take the reigns of the imperium.

>>53434360
It's not. The 5th ED main rulebook says that the Tyranids left behind them the husks of a dozen galaxies before arriving to this g alaxy.

>>53434360
Theory like gravity you mean, because which is almost certain considering that they probably didn't spend watching TV all those thousand years.

>>53434079
>>53434121
>>53434304
>>53434331
This argument is irrelevant, if no superweapon of the Emperor's innovation could win then nothing the current Imperium can muster - whether based in faith or science - could win. The Imperium is explicitly weaker than it would be without Big E.

Also,

>Tell me anon how you would make a democratic peaceful nation in a world where there are xeno species which the only reason haven't wiped out the world is because they are killing themselves, a dimension crawling with literally demons who can rip the fabric of reality, as I said before a race of immortal machines which objective is to cleanse life and an upcoming invasion of a race that devours galaxies anon.

No joke, if it weren't for the Imperium's failings 40K would just be a generic science fantasy setting where noble mankind fights valiantly against terrible creatures from beyond. There are tons of settings full of bad shit where mankind is not completely retarded and helping to perpetuate the shit state of the galaxy.

There are bad things in 40K but the Imperium has hamstrung its own ability to fight them by being utterly retarded.

>>53433306

>Tell me anon how you would make a democratic peaceful nation in a world where there are xeno species which the only reason haven't wiped out the world is because they are killing themselves, a dimension crawling with literally demons who can rip the fabric of reality, as I said before a race of immortal machines which objective is to cleanse life and an upcoming invasion of a race that devours galaxies anon.

The exact same way the Emperor did, which was working just fine in creating a human Utopia.

In either case your argument is a non-argument. The modern Imperium is an oppressive shithole and YET it's still a crumbling regime. Oppression and "hard measures" haven't stopped the Tyranids, nor chaos nor even orks- a faction that had been driven to the brink of extinction pre-Heresy. The Imperium has had 10,000 years of post-Emperor oppression with nothing to show for it.

>>53434383
>Scoff at superstition? Source?

Jesus Christ just read the books. They talk about the Chaos artifacts they have and how they're perceived.

>There is fluff however that someone weak willed with considerable psych power will fall into chaos

Yes, you're right. Either that or they explode.

But there is no fluff, ABSOLUTELY NONE, stating that every sentient being in the galaxy must be religious or explode. There are plenty of humans who legitimately have no faith in the Emperor, even within the Imperium, and do fine.

Well, they don't do fine, as their lack of faith is usually because they live in shitholes like Necromunda. But they don't explode or instantly fall to Chaos.

>>53434383
>There is fluff however that someone weak willed with considerable psych power

Yes, psykers. PSYKERS.

Not everyone is a fucking psyker, holy shit.

And not all psykers fall to Chaos. Many just go insane or are natural sociopaths.

File: Zombie plague.png (94KB, 840x998px) Image search: [Google]

94KB, 840x998px

>>53434454
But the faithless and hopeless are most vulnerable to Warp infection.

File: PO9VHxs.jpg (32KB, 476x349px) Image search: [Google]

32KB, 476x349px

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KILL DA BIG BLUE SPACE MARINE
PUT SOME DAGGA ROIGHT IN HIS GOB UNTIL HE SHITS FAKKIN LEAD
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RIP HIS GRUN
Y̜͙̖̝̻̗̖̗̹͙̠͠͞ͅͅ ̛̛̩͚͇͎̼̻̪͖̱͘͜Ķ̢̝̳̥̝͉U̷̵̢̗̭̫̬Ņ̛͇̦̼̣̗̺̙̙̩͚̳̗̞̯̗̼͖͟͠Ţ̺̣͈̳̪͉͙̥̪̪̭̀ ̵̡̮̹̞̗̫͈̠͈͇̦̦̥̣̳̀̀͡S̜̤̞̮͖͇̥͙̯͇͚̱͚̕̕O̡̢̮̺̦͔̰͇̯̞ ̨̣͓̮̙͔̞̩̦̻-̹͓̱̼̹̼̯̣͓͎̘̝͉͡G̨̛̗̪̗̗̺̱͘͢G͈̫̪̥̙̤̰̰̀͡ͅH̷̨̛͍̞͔͇̺̣̻͕̖̝̥̯͟H̨̢͚̤̹͢͜H̨̨͉̥̰̱̱͚̗̣͕̯̹̤͕̦͍͎̝͙͟R̷̛͎̝̙̮̙͖̤̘̰̳͡͝R̢͍͇͇̳R̶̸̬̭̟͉̫̬͢ͅH̷͇͎͔̭̀̕͞Ḫ̡̧̳̥͓͜͢Ģ̗͕̖͓̜̳̜̫͓̥̫̳͜ͅͅG̶̡̡̜͉̱̭̟̙̣̫̫͍̹̕͢G̺̫͍̝͉͓̯̖̘̻̻͇̳̘͘͞

WAAAAAUUUUUUGGGHHHHHHHHHHH

Y̜͙̖̝̻̗̖̗̹͙̠͠͞ͅͅ ̛̛̩͚͇͎̼̻̪͖̱͘͜Ķ̢̝̳̥̝͉U̷̵̢̗̭̫̬Ņ̛͇̦̼̣̗̺̙̙̩͚̳̗̞̯̗̼͖͟͠Ţ̺̣͈̳̪͉͙̥̪̪̭̀ ̵̡̮̹̞̗̫͈̠͈͇̦̦̥̣̳̀̀͡S̜̤̞̮͖͇̥͙̯͇͚̱͚̕̕O̡̢̮̺̦͔̰͇̯̞ ̨̣͓̮̙͔̞̩̦̻-̹͓̱̼̹̼̯̣͓͎̘̝͉͡G̨̛̗̪̗̗̺̱͘͢G͈̫̪̥̙̤̰̰̀͡ͅH̷̨̛͍̞͔͇̺̣̻͕̖̝̥̯͟H̨̢͚̤̹͢͜H̨̨͉̥̰̱̱͚̗̣͕̯̹̤͕̦͍͎̝͙͟R̷̛͎̝̙̮̙͖̤̘̰̳͡͝R̢͍͇͇̳R̶̸̬̭̟͉̫̬͢ͅH̷͇͎͔̭̀̕͞Ḫ̡̧̳̥͓͜͢Ģ̗͕̖͓̜̳̜̫͓̥̫̳͜ͅͅG̶̡̡̜͉̱̭̟̙̣̫̫͍̹̕͢G̺̫͍̝͉͓̯̖̘̻̻͇̳̘͘͞
Y̜͙̖̝̻̗̖̗̹͙̠͠͞ͅͅ ̛̛̩͚͇͎̼̻̪͖̱͘͜Ķ̢̝̳̥̝͉U̷̵̢̗̭̫̬Ņ̛͇̦̼̣̗̺̙̙̩͚̳̗̞̯̗̼͖͟͠Ţ̺̣͈̳̪͉͙̥̪̪̭̀ ̵̡̮̹̞̗̫͈̠͈͇̦̦̥̣̳̀̀͡S̜̤̞̮͖͇̥͙̯͇͚̱͚̕̕O̡̢̮̺̦͔̰͇̯̞ ̨̣͓̮̙͔̞̩̦̻-̹͓̱̼̹̼̯̣͓͎̘̝͉͡G̨̛̗̪̗̗̺̱͘͢G͈̫̪̥̙̤̰̰̀͡ͅH̷̨̛͍̞͔͇̺̣̻͕̖̝̥̯͟H̨̢͚̤̹͢͜H̨̨͉̥̰̱̱͚̗̣͕̯̹̤͕̦͍͎̝͙͟R̷̛͎̝̙̮̙͖̤̘̰̳͡͝R̢͍͇͇̳R̶̸̬̭̟͉̫̬͢ͅH̷͇͎͔̭̀̕͞Ḫ̡̧̳̥͓͜͢Ģ̗͕̖͓̜̳̜̫͓̥̫̳͜ͅͅG̶̡̡̜͉̱̭̟̙̣̫̫͍̹̕͢G̺̫͍̝͉͓̯̖̘̻̻͇̳͘͞
Y̜͙̖̝̻̗̖̗̹͙̠͠͞ͅͅ ̛̛̩͚͇͎̼̻̪͖̱͘͜Ķ̢̝̳̥̝͉U̷̵̢̗̭̫̬Ņ̛͇̦̼̣̗̺̙̙̩͚̳̗̞̯̗̼͖͟͠Ţ̺̣͈̳̪͉͙̥̪̪̭̀ ̵̡̮̹̞̗̫͈̠͈͇̦̦̥̣̳̀̀͡S̜̤̞̮͖͇̥͙̯͇͚̱͚̕̕O̡̢̮̺̦͔̰͇̯̞ ̨̣͓̮̙͔̞̩̦̻-̹͓̱̼̹̼̯̣͓͎̘̝͉͡G̨̛̗̪̗̗̺̱͘͢G͈̫̪̥̙̤̰̰̀͡ͅH̷̨̛͍̞͔͇̺̣̻͕̖̝̥̯͟H̨̢͚̤̹͢͜H̨̨͉̥̰̱̱͚̗̣͕̯̹̤͕̦͍͎̝͙͟R̷̛͎̝̙̮̙͖̤̘̰̳͡͝R̢͍͇͇̳R̶̸̬̭̟͉̫̬͢ͅH̷͇͎͔̭̀̕͞Ḫ̡̧̳̥͓͜͢Ģ̗͕̖͓̜̳̜̫͓̥̫̳͜ͅͅG̶̡̡̜͉̱̭̟̙̣̫̫͍̹̕͢G̺̫͍̝͉͓̯̖̘̻̻͇̳̘͘͞

>>53434432
>a faction that had been driven to the brink of extinction pre-Heresy.
I thought the heresy books mentioned Titain sized orks deap in ork territory where the crusades never reached.

>>53434484
Holy shit, wow, one of Nurgle's infinite plagues works in an incredibly specific way. No shit, dude.

You realize it only gets BTFO by hope and faith specifically because those things are antithesis to Nurgle, right? Tzeentch fucking loves hope and faith, they're the easiest things for him to corrupt.

>>53434062
"New lore" was met with some level of skepticism, sure. People criticise new stuff all the time. But it was never a flat out 'stop giving us more', which is what you seem to be implying was somehow a consensus in any capacity. Of course people are going to react to new shit with some chagrin when it either retcons old shit people liked or when there's massive shifts in framing in the narrative in codices. There was never any large group that wanted the universe to stay the same forever, where there WAS a very large group of people that wanted a forward moving story line.

As it happens, I've got my ups and downs about 8th's writing(I'm really not too fond of the nuMarines), but I'm not going to paint every single person as a single group of people just because that suits my worldview. "You autists" is pretty indicative of just how open you are to anyone that disagrees with you. You need to get your head out of your ass and stop boiling opinions down to a group mentality.

I don't think I'd have even been bothered if your original comment hadn't literally painted anyone and everyone that had asked for something entirely reasonable as 'autists'. You literally just created a strawman group to direct your arguments towards, and doing the same exact fucking thing with your reply too by lumping me in with any group of people. It's fucking unreal how hard you're gagging on your own shit.

>>53434406
>No joke, if it weren't for the Imperium's failings 40K would just be a generic science fantasy setting where noble mankind fights valiantly against terrible creatures from beyond.
Which generic science fantasy settings have a literal dimension filled with demons who can tear fabrics in space, exterminator robots, extreme breeder space orks with the fucking zergs?

>>53434432
>The exact same way the Emperor did, which was working just fine in creating a human Utopia.
You mean estabilishing an authoritarian goverment which curbed all those who didn't agree with him? Yes, that was certainly a good place to live when compared with our lives.

My point is that you are mislead if you believe you could fix the world of Warhammer just by changing human goverment. Heck even the emperor gold age was actually oppressive as fuck by our standards.

>>53434547
Nono, forget about all the character and flavour outside the imperium! It's all GENERIC. I know what that word means! GENERIC. NEED IMPERIUM.

>>53434547
Not science fiction, but Warcraft, being ripped from Warhammer, basically has equivalents to most of those things.

In fact, WHFB had equivalents to all those things except Tyranids, though they KINDA introduced those with Ogre Kingdoms, maybe even implying actual Tyranid 'taint' (seriously, their lore is cool, look them up). WHFB is pretty dark but the Empire is nowhere near as retarded as the Imperium, and things were generally better for it until sales dipped too low.

Also you've got stuff like Doom, etc.

>>53434587
>My point is that you are mislead if you believe you could fix the world of Warhammer just by changing human goverment.

You kinda could.

Golden Age humanity lived in a legit utopia. They had friendly relations with xenos, they had BTFO most hostile stuff, everything was great. They even traded with Eldar. Their only flaw was that they didn't know shit about daemon stuff and weren't prepared for it. If you had a Golden Age society with the sorcerous knowledge and understanding of the Imperium, you'd have the perfect 40K state for humans.

>>53434598
Even the Warcraft worst factions, like the Burning Crusade and the Scourge were threats on the dimentional level.

And frankly, even through Warcraft is not grimdark it's a very shit place to live. Did you forget Azeroth getting raped by Orcs or Lordaeron by the Undead? People literally die at every second everywhere, the only reason it's not a piece of shit is because they don't have threats on Warhammer level, which was exactly my point.

>>53434653
>Golden Age humanity lived in a legit utopia.
Again, did you forget authoritarian goverment that killed everyone that dissent?

>>53434657
>Even the Warcraft worst factions, like the Burning Crusade and the Scourge were threats on the dimentional level.

So... like Chaos?

>And frankly, even through Warcraft is not grimdark it's a very shit place to live. Did you forget Azeroth getting raped by Orcs or Lordaeron by the Undead? People literally die at every second everywhere, the only reason it's not a piece of shit is because they don't have threats on Warhammer level, which was exactly my point.

It's not perfect... but it's not a grimdark horrorshow. It is, like I said, a generic fantasy setting where noble mankind faces off against horrible foes from beyond. And yes, this is because the 'good' races of the setting did not fuck up their response to everything like the Imperium did.

The Imperium is explicitly not the best, or even close to a good, way things could have turned out. It was not inevitable that humans would have to end up with the Imperium as it is.

>>53434670
...The Golden Age is not the Emperor's Imperium, anon. We refer to that age as the Great Crusade era.

It's the utopian human society from before the Age of Strife.

Jesus, learn your fluff.

>>53434736
You mean the dark age of technology you fucking heretic?

Next you'll be telling me AI aren't an immutable offense the great spooky machine god

>>53434716
>So... like Chaos?
Nope, Chaos is a threat on the fabric of reality. Chaos objective is actually collapsing our reality into the warp.

>It's not perfect... but it's not a grimdark horrorshow. It is, like I said, a generic fantasy setting where noble mankind faces off against horrible foes from beyond.
Which horrible foes? The nice honourful Orcs? The demons who actually keep getting their butt kicked?

>>53434736
You mean the utopia that created killer robots Terminator style?

>>53434791
>Nope, Chaos is a threat on the fabric of reality. Chaos objective is actually collapsing our reality into the warp.

For the factions involved, this is functionally the same as the Burning Legion. Either way it means their world is destroyed.

>The nice honourful Orcs?

They weren't really so nice and honorable at first.

>The demons who actually keep getting their butt kicked?

Notice the reason they get their asses kicked is because the 'good guy' races of the plot team up to fight them. Like I said, the only thing that differentiates 40K from this kind of fiction is that everyone in 40K acts retarded in response to the bad things the galaxy throws at them.

>>53434824
Yes. Those guys were perfect servants who warded off races like orks.

The Iron Men only went bonkers because, like I said, Golden Age mankind didn't have any experience with daemons and the like. Golden Age style society with the knowledge of Warpcraft, sorcery, and psyker powers that mankind has gained since then is the perfect human society in 40K.

>>53434848
>For the factions involved, this is functionally the same as the Burning Legion. Either way it means their world is destroyed.
Not at all. Sargeras objective is to destroy the world and remake it on his image. Chaos objective is to essencially destroy reality itself and condemn every last soul to ever lasting torment. Tell me which is worse.

>They weren't really so nice and honorable at first.
Because demon influence, which they broke free by kicking their asses.

>Notice the reason they get their asses kicked is because the 'good guy' races of the plot team up to fight them.
Or maybe because they aren't like chaos in Warhammer, which feeds from any psych energy and as such are literally invincible, because the only way of truly removing them would be closing the warp which would instantly kill every psych species in the universe?

>>53434882
Where does it say that the Iron Men rebelled because of chaos?

>>53434929
>Chaos objective is to essencially destroy reality itself and condemn every last soul to ever lasting torment.

Most souls don't even maintain consciousness in the Warp, dude. The Warp consuming realspace would mean straight up death for the vast majority.

>Because demon influence, which they broke free by kicking their asses.

...With the help of all the other races.

>Or maybe because they aren't like chaos in Warhammer, which feeds from any psych energy and as such are literally invincible

Chaos may be unending, but it's not invincible and its servants are not unstoppable. The Burning Legion, for all intents and purposes, has an infinite reserve of forces to attack the world with, just as Chaos will always be around.

Except Chaos can canonically be 'calmed'. The modern Warp is only the way it is because of the incredible suffering unleashed by the War in Heaven. Prior to that the Chaos Gods, while they existed, were powerless ephemera.

>>53434941
Just read some fiction.

Whenever an Abominable Intelligence is found, it's always possessed. The DAoT Titan from the Grey Knights books, for example. Combine this with the fact that the uprising took place at the start of the Age of Strife and it's pretty obvious what happened.

>>53434978
>Except Chaos can canonically be 'calmed'. The modern Warp is only the way it is because of the incredible suffering unleashed by the War in Heaven. Prior to that the Chaos Gods, while they existed, were powerless ephemera.

Again with the Oldcron fluff? Dude, get with the times.

The Warp was never calm. The Chaos Gods and their daemons existed even back then. Hence why the Old Ones constructed the Daemon Cages long before the War in Heaven to contain and isolate trillions of daemons from the Warp. Hecl, Be'lakor has memories of the times before the War in Heaven.

So no. The Warp can never be calmed. It can be warded via Pylons but never calmed. It acknowledges no time or space.

>>53435004
That's not a proof.

We have an DAoT AI that repelled for its own reasons unrelated to Chaos. It's called the Tableau Myriad. It's a character in the HH and a part of the Marian section of the story.

>>53435024
>The Warp was never calm.

Except it was. It's stated even in new fluff that the Warp was calm in the past. The increasing turbulence is what caused the Emperor to suicide himself into existence. It is explicitly said that prior to the War in Heaven the Warp was calmer.

>Hence why the Old Ones constructed the Daemon Cages long before the War in Heaven to contain and isolate trillions of daemons from the Warp

Even if the calm Warp is non-canon now, this here shows that Chaos can be contained. The Old Ones had no problems with it, hence, it could be beaten.

>>53435048
Oh yeah, that guy does exist.

Well, either way, the rebellion didn't cause the fall of man. In fact, there was a big alliance to defeat it. Kinda like how a reasonable society would react to an emerging threat.

>>53434263
>>53418847


How to spot a Dawn of War fan

>>53435067
>Except it was. It's stated even in new fluff that the Warp was calm in the past. The increasing turbulence is what caused the Emperor to suicide himself into existence. It is explicitly said that prior to the War in Heaven the Warp was calmer.

No, that's your headcanon. No lore says that the Warp was calm except the Oldcron lore that was thrown to the trash. Every new piece of lore shows that Chaos was as a great threat back then as it now. With the Old Ones creating Daemon Cages and the Webway to help combat the daemonic threat in the Warp.

>this here shows that Chaos can be contained.

Through great effort and expenditure of resources. You think the construction of the Daemon Cages and the Pylon Network were easy? The sciences that built these relics have long been lost. The races of the galaxy have no way of recreating them.

>>53433523
Sisters of Battle are not usually the overblown Zealot type, Only Dawn of War paints them as such.

SoB only go off the deep end when faced with complete failure and become repentia.

>>53435125
>Every new piece of lore shows that Chaos was as a great threat back then as it now. With the Old Ones creating Daemon Cages and the Webway to help combat the daemonic threat in the Warp.

Even current Daemon codex, which says Chaos came from the minds of mortals or current Necron lore that says the War in Heaven fucked the warp?

>>53435125
>You think the construction of the Daemon Cages and the Pylon Network were easy?

No. But the races of the galaxy did indeed get to the point where they could be built.

>The sciences that built these relics have long been lost.

Pretty sure Necrons still know how to do their shit.

And again, if it was figured out once, it can be figured out again. If, like you say, Chaos was always at everyone's throats and the Old Ones managed to make this stuff while fighting Chaos, there's no excuse for the Imperium not getting its shit together properly.

>>53435125
>No lore says that the Warp was calm except the Oldcron lore that was thrown to the trash.

But the Chaos Daemons codex says it too.

>>53435209
>Even current Daemon codex, which says Chaos came from the minds of mortals

Read MoM. The first chapter. The Birth of Drach'nyen. You see that time means nothing. At the moment of its birth, it was omnipresent in all time.

>urrent Necron lore that says the War in Heaven fucked the warp?

Only that the Old Ones got destroyed the powers that they sought to control.

>>53435212
>No. But the races of the galaxy did indeed get to the point where they could be built.

But never again will they reach that point. The point of 40K is decline.

>Pretty sure Necrons still know how to do their shit.

The Void Dragon made those pylons and he has long since been sharded. So probably Necrons lost the science to built them. They indeed lost a lot of their sciences and technology after their war with the C'tan the Great Sleep that followed.

>there's no excuse for the Imperium not getting its shit together properly.

Even the Emperor thinks it's hopeless struggle, that Chaos is destined to devour mankind. You are silly if you think that humanity can achieve the level of the Old Ones while being hounded to extinction by xenos and the forces of Chaos.

>>53435279
Where?

>>53435320
>But never again will they reach that point. The point of 40K is decline.

Which is what I've been arguing all along.

Yes, narratively, 40K is about decline. The reason the Imperium can never achieve these things is because it has plunged itself into decline.

>You are silly if you think that humanity can achieve the level of the Old Ones while being hounded to extinction by xenos and the forces of Chaos.

According to you that's literally what the Old Ones did.

>>53435363
>The reason the Imperium can never achieve these things is because it has plunged itself into decline.

Which is partially due to the situation they found themselves in.

>According to you that's literally what the Old Ones did.

The Daemon Cages were constructed billions of years ago. Long before the War in Heaven. So was the Webway.

As far as we know, they weren't as beset and backwards as the Imperium back then.

>>53435399
>Which is partially due to the situation they found themselves in.

Partially, yes. Their way of reacting to their situation is pretty much what has doomed them.

>The Daemon Cages were constructed billions of years ago.

By the Old Ones. Who, if you are correct in your assertion that the galaxy was always shit, were learning to do all this while fighting Chaos.

>As far as we know, they weren't as beset

Again, according to you the Warp was the same, so Chaos was the same. If Chaos was the same as it is now, there's literally no reason why it wasn't attacking realspace.

>and backwards as the Imperium back then.

So you agree that it's the backwards and inefficient nature of the Imperium that prevents it from achieving greatness, then?

>>53435320
>Read HH shit.

lol!

Get outta here, carnac, nobody's interested in your shit.

File: Nom Nom Nom.png (592KB, 534x816px) Image search: [Google]

592KB, 534x816px

>>53435451
Drach'nyen aka End of Empires aka Echo of the First Murder is the best character to have come out of warhammer in a decade. Prove me wrong.

>>53435446
>were learning to do all this while fighting Chaos.

Which would have been easier considering that the walls of reality wasn't sundered by then meaning lesser Warp incursions. Also the fact that the Old Ones most likely were in total mastery of themselves like the Eldar meaning they are less likely to be tempted by the dark powers.

This allowed them to neutralise the Chaotic threat before it snowballed out of control.

in 40K, it's bloody too late. The Walls of reality have been sundered with the last renaming Necron pylons being the only thing keeping the galaxy from plunging into the Warp. The races of the galaxy are more concerned with wasting their time battling each other rather than averting the coming apocalypse.

>So you agree that it's the backwards and inefficient nature of the Imperium that prevents it from achieving greatness, then?

Never disagree with this but it isn't the only reason.

>>53435563
>Prove me wrong.
Other characters have come out.

>>53418878
>It wouldn't be the first time a High Lord of Terra gets murdered by the Inquisition
i'm going to need examples of this. I honestly hate how op the inquisition has become in the fluff, this "we play by our own rules" bullshit is ridiculous

>>53433548

>Counter point: Warp

Yeah? Necrons have a good chance of locking realspace away from the warp if they get their way.

>Is this it? Is this the only arguments you people can muster? Warp based science that is essentially impossible to have any consistency behind it, whose whole basis behind the science is being anti positivist?

No, there's definitely consistency behind it. That's why psykers can be trained, it isn't just a crapshoot. That's why vortex grenades and psychic hoods work. You can use the scientific method to study the warp.

>>53435947
Goge Vandire and Drakan Vangorich.

>>53436582
One was killed by SoB, other by Space Marine.

>>53436582

Goge Vandire was killed by Alicia Dominica. Assassins didn't do shit.

>>53436631
>>53436623
Both of those rulers were overthrown in no small part by the Inquisition. While the =][= didn't personally kill those two specifically, they did kill most of the other High Lords who sided with both of those figures.

>>53432248
>t. marinefag

>>53436892
>Both of those rulers were overthrown in no small part by the Inquisition.

Citation required? The Custodes and the Sisters were the two groups that ended Vandire.

>>53433461
>Titus recruited to be an Ultra-Inquisitor
I'd actually be kind of okay with this.

>>53434514
When did Tzeentch make something that could affect every faithful?