>Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom,

Say what you will about GRRRRRRRRM, at least he doesn't make the same thread every day.

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>>53414002
Maybe because real history isn't an epic fantasy novel?

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>>53414002
Since this is an ASOIAF thread, let's discuss this guy. What alignment is he? We're talking ADwD Jaime here.

>>53414002
Which criticism of LotR is more insufferable, this or Moorcock's party politics laden one?

>>53414083
Moorcock's.
This is a valid criticism, if memed.
Moorcock's is shit end to end.

>>53414002
Why does everyone conveniently ignore LOTR is supposed to be a fantasy-mythology, not some medieval historical fantasy + elves?

GRRM commits a performative contradiction: he didn't write about tax policies or good rulers. Nor can he worldbuild half as well as Tolkien.

Lots of detailed food descriptions tho.

>>53414141
well, you write what you know

>>53414083
>>53414002
>>53414117
I think I'd forgive LoTR for being epic fantasy more if not for the fact that Tolkein is obviously a worldbuilding whore.

I mean he makes up several complete languages for his setting, as well as mythology, history, and even genealogies going back thousands of years....

And then he names the mountain Doom and neglects practically every aspect of their religion. Its pretty fair to ask for more details on just how Aragorn was a good king beyond just his being Lawful Good.

>>53414117
>Why does everyone conveniently ignore LOTR is supposed to be a fantasy-mythology, not some medieval historical fantasy + elves?
We don't; OP just spams this same pasta every few days.

>>53414069
firmly back in the wannabe knight mode

>>53414117
because then they couldn't bitch about it

>>53414002
interestingly enough, not questions even Tolkien had answers to. He never was satisfied with the Orcish question. It nagged at him until his death.

His tax policy was probably a standard fuedal one built on a castle economy, with free trade with the men of Bree and Rohan

He probably did maintain an army to keep the peace and drive away any lingering orcs.
>>53414117
To be fair, because Tolkiens autism meant he world built to excess.

We do know for a fact however that he ruled well and the west prospered until the end of his days and beyond, we're told that much explicitly iirc

>>53414168
>And then he names the mountain Doom
Are you aware that the term Doom, as used throughout Tolkien's works, has a deeper meaning than "scary thing you should be afraid of"?

>>53414168
how would aragorn's rule even fit into the tone of the story? The book is suppposed to be the Red book of westmarch which is a retelling of the account of the war of the ring and the accomplishments of the fellowship.

>>53414208
of course not.

>>53414083
>Moorcock
Horrible writing and terrible politics mixed together and you get that faggot

Why do people get so salty about this quote

>>53414117
Except it has a FAR more in depth history than most others, but seems to miss a few mundane details rather consistently.

>>53414246
what was his criticism?

>>53414210
Aragorn's rule would be exceedingly boring to read about unless it had vivid descriptions of all the hot sex he had with his banging half-elven wife

otherwise it would just be the mundane dealings of governing a prosperous, peaceful nation.

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>>53414141
>GRRM didn't write about good rulers
I'll fight you.

>>53414255
>Why do people get so salty about this quote
Because Aragorn was literally divinely appointed to the job and didn't need a tax policy because his mere presence meant good times for all, so Pudge's complaints are pointless.

Mainly people are annoyed at OP for spamming this thread so much.

>>53414255
honestly we don't, it's amusing and slightly dumb.

It's Moorcock we get salty about.
>>53414275
I know the show does terrible character assassination on the Mannis, but you know he's never gonna be the goddamn king.

>>53414255
Imagine you step outside your house, and step on dogshit. Fine, you'll clean and leave.
Then it happens again.
And again.

In the end you'll be very pissed.

>>53414295
>but you know he's never gonna be the goddamn king.
He's already a king, him not sitting on the throne is a technicality.

>>53414261
"Too Tory".

Basically he dislikes it because it doesn't strive to explore social themes like he does, and it can be taken to be aligned with Conservative Party views.

>>53414295
I'm not sure that many people on /tg/ are very familiar with more cock these days.

>>53414002
Tolkien also doesn't ask the question of what happened when a character had diarrhea.

This makes him an objectively better writer.

>>53414291
>Because Aragorn was literally divinely appointed to the job and didn't need a tax policy because his mere presence meant good times for all, so Pudge's complaints are pointless.
Though I would like to see how well Aragon was able to rule when spending most of his life as a ranger.

Then again, Elrond probably could've taught him how ruling works fairly well.

>>53414275
>brittle moralist hypocrite into human sacrifice

He's LN falling to TN, not LG.

>>53414295
>but you know he's never gonna be the goddamn king.
If he isn't, he'd damn well better be either a dragonslayer or a realmsaver.

>>53414337
you kidding? /tg/ loves to wank Moorcock and his torrid garbage

His writing put me to fucking sleep, maybe if I was a housewife high on betties i'd find the purple prose and icy mc cruel elf fuck's angst more compelling

As it is if I wanted to read about irredeemable fuckwads i'd buy a newspaper

> muh realism

>>53414168
Tolkien was into language and mythology, not political science. His world building was purely in service of those interests.

>>53414318
Unless all of the keys of power in the area you're claiming as your kingdom agree that you're the King then no, you're not.

>>53414255

He thinks LoTR orcs have babies.

>>53414355
Aragorn is in his early Hundreds when he takes the throne.

He has had a long time to learn a lot of shit.

he's also a literal ubermensch

>>53414357
fuck off DABID.
>stannis sacrificing his daughter
the only person who is going to do that is selyse

>>53414069
undecided/true neutral. he started chaotic neutral with chaotic stupid leaning but is slowly changing to lawfull.

>>53414069
Started Neutral evil

Slowly rising to Neutral to Good

>>53414069
What are the alignments in ASOIAF?

>>53414141
>>53414141
>>53414141

Well technically he does say the the Seven Kingdoms are broke as fuck every 20 pages. But yeah, he doesn't really say how Stannis managed to make them better: you can't really make me believe a fucking knights' tournament was a huge drain on something the size of South America, George.

Anyway it's interesting that the quote isn't really that informed. Gondor maintened a standing army and the freed enemies had a reserve in Nurn.

didn't many orcs sue for mercy after sauron's downfall? i assume it was at least considered. why would tolkien even mention it instead of "and then gondor killed all the orcs" if it wasnt?

>>53414400
True, but aside from his life in Rivendell, he's not had much time to learn how to actually maneuver a kingdom like Gondor, even before it reunited with everywhere else.

Goodness knows realms have crumbled because of their rulers not knowing what to do. Or the rulers have ended up being carved up by the military/population.

>>53414141

Truth. I find the political intrigue and relentless sadism pretty enjoyable since that's the kinda guy I am, but the worldbuilding is very weak. Even if you don't compare it to Tolkien with his languages and myths, Westeros is just an insanely bloated western feudal kingdom while Essos is a bunch of exotic archetypes from premodern travel writing slapped together, which is something Robert E. Howard did much better.

>>53414165

Underappreciated burn.

>>53414357
>There will be no burnings, pray harder

>>53414357
Kill yourself, showfag.

>>53414083
Moorcock's. Pretty much everyone worth his/hers salt always shrugs and says "Did he even read the books?". And then he has the whole "Tolkien was a crypto fascist" thing going on.

>>53414168
No, he was not a "worldbuilding whore", because your special blend of bullshit time-wasting autism did not exist in his day. He made shit up because he enjoyed making shit up, not because he felt his world needed any particular elements to be in any way "complete".

Fuck Gondor's religion - what about the fact that a full half of Middle Earth is completely goddamned empty for no good reason? Arnor fell to the Witch-King a full 2000 years before the War of the Ring, leaving Arnor and Eriador as uninhabited wasteland. Apparently no-one since then saw any point in recolonising all that land. In 2000 years we went from Christian Rome to the fucking moon, while the Hobbits apparently spent two millenia growing pumpkins and fucking each other inbred.

Tolkien didn't give a fuck about realism.

I know nothing about game of thrones. Is it worth watching or reading? You guys would gibe a better answer than /lit/ or /tv/

>>53414472
The books are, the show has kinda lost the spark now that it's overtaken them.

>>53414083
>more insufferable

>logic

>insufferable

Yeah, that makes sense.

>>53414444
because the realm of gondor was going just fine for the most part and it is feudalistic in nature. Aragorn was trained by the elves about everything regarding history and he also has people like faramir

>>53414472
Ehhh... It's alright for the most part. It's not stellar in any respect. If you've got nothing better to do, read or watch it if you want to.

>>53414430
The axis of law (realm serving, neutral, self-serving)
The axis of honour (honourable, neutral, treacherous)
The axis of will (true iron, slimy, toady)

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>>53414472
For all it's stupidity, you would probably end up really enjoying it. The show has very high production values, some great actors and a decent cloak and dagger plot going on. Just know when to eject.

>>53414472
Despite the hate it gets in /tg/ i enjoyed the books

>>53414002

Anyhow the main issue here is that LotR isn't meant to be the history of another world. It's meant to be myths and legends of another world. Also, Westeros is hysterically bad if you try to interpret it as HISTORY rather than as an excuse to write Accursed Kings in a fantasy setting. You are forced to assume that, for instance, it is plausible for Starks and Lannisters to survive for millennia. And that's saying nothing about stuff in Essos. It's a feudal intrigue series and a decent one at that but not terribly realistic as far as history goes. Gritty, sure, but not realistic.

(The Witcher series strikes me as having much more believable "history in a gritty fantasy world", by the way. It at least has various historical changes and dynamic borders and dynasties.)

>>53414472

Yes. I would say what he does good are actually the characters. The story is... hrm, I would say soap-operish with tons of blood, but it's not a problem per se, it's just that honestly I think the characters is what get you hooked.

/tg/ often shits on GRRM 'cause 1) it's mainstream now 2) it's not really the usual mildly retarded fantasy tropes taken at face value

>>53414525

>feuds

>gondor

>actually, Middle Earth

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>>53414472
Show is trash, books are good - the first three are GOAT in particular.

>>53414556
/tg/ loves to hate and hates what it loves, on average we're tsundere for it, like mtg, d&d and 40k.

>>53414472

I never watched it, but very much worth reading if you like gritty fantasy, distinct, memorable characters and feudal intrigue. Some of it has a /tg/ storytime quality. It's not perfect and certainly not "realistic" but it's fun, inspirational, mostly well-written and suspenseful. A bit overrated by pretentious edgelords for whom the idea that anyone can die is just so amazing, but still good.

>>53414567
To be fair, some maesters think that the "one unbroken family ruling for thousands of years" is baloney.

>>53414465
The lands of what was Arnor are not uninhabited. Also they were sparsely populated when Arnor did exist.

>>53414465
He made shit up because he felt context was necessary to make his pet languages more complete, for the most part.

>>53414436
>you can't really make me believe a fucking knights' tournament
The problem was multiple tournaments, hunting a lot and doing a shit ton of other expensive things.

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>>53414589
>The words "feudalism" and "feud" are related
HOLY SHIT WHY DIDN'T I NOTICE THIS BEFORE?
Am I dumb?

>>53414688
Also the fact that the entire economy of Westeros is run on prostitution.

>>53414465
>In 2000 years we went from Christian Rome to the fucking moon
We also went from Pyramids to more pyramids, so that´s not saying much

>>53414590
Can somebody post the one with Euron?

>>53414168
He was really pressed for time when he was writing the books under "The Return of the King". You can just see how much he wanted to talk about all the shit inside Minas Tirith, and how he wanted to elaborate on that one random prince (god he was mentioned in like 5 pages but fuck even I wanted to know more about him) who was being set up as somebody from some friendly lands in/around Gondor, but he needed to wrap it up, because deadlines were deadlines, and he wasn't nearly financially stable enough to blow off his publishers, so he simply couldn't elaborate and worldbuild as much as he wanted.

It's actually sad that he'll never write that post LOTR book after Aragorn's death that he wanted, the idea was legit.

>>53414255
Because he inherently missed the point of the story

Is Beowulf realistic? No. Is it a classic fairytale that has stood the test of time? Yes.

>>53414697
probably, or you probably learned the word feudalism before feud, but never made the connection

>>53414713
then bobby was a key investor.

>>53414615
>>53414615

I don't think the Stark's rule is that absurd. I mean, the japanese imperial family sat on that throne for perhaps 1800 years.

It's the STASIS that's hard to swallow. He does kinda hint in the book of lore that presumably not every Stark king was in a position similar to Eddard's, but...

>>53414662

He's not that wrong tough. I'm re-reading LOTR these days and you know what REALLY doesn't make sense? Eriador's trees.

No, seriously.

There are no masses of orcs there. There is a shitton of ghosts hautings and some trolls, but it's not really something that could justify anything like that. The land should be free from any forms of woodcutting, and as we can see from the Shire, the climax vegetation should be at least sparse trees. I can dig that Hobbits are awesome gardeners, but they're not fucking Galadriel, right?

Despite this, the land didn't recover at all. It's barren, apparently wouldn't even support sheeps.

The only answer I could have is that Sauron's power do kinda fuck over nature by default. Or that Angmar did poison it mildly, for all we know. And it's a fucking weak answer.

>I do assume that JRRT had Eriador's history more or less already down at the time of the Hobbit, granted

>>53414714
Humans were also busy spreading into every available habitat they could find. There is literally nothing to indicate that Eriador and Arnor were unsuitable for re-colonisation, outside a handful of places like the Old Forest and the Barrow Downs, and the Ettenmoors way up in the furthest north.

After two millenia, the borders of the Shire should have been under a lot more pressure than they're written to be. Hell, even if Men didn't go there, the Old Forest should have expanded and engulfed everything instead. Forests can grow really fast when there's no-one around to chop them down.

>>53414567
>You are forced to assume that, for instance, it is plausible for Starks and Lannisters to survive for millennia.
The Counts of Holland believed (or tried to make others believe) that they were direct descendants of the Trojans. For faux-medieval families thinking you can trace your lineage back a 1000 years isn't weird at all.

>>53414472
First three are good, after that meh. Since it's chaptered with character POV's, some POV's are good and some can be skipped.

>>53414920
>The Counts of Holland believed (or tried to make others believe) that they were direct descendants of the Trojans. For faux-medieval families thinking you can trace your lineage back a 1000 years isn't weird at all.
It isn't presented as faith or belief in the ASOIAF universe, but as a fact. Starks are a 1000 year old family really. It isn't a family legend or a myth.

>>53414472

It's stands apart from most fantasy novels. It is by no means unique. Frankly I find it somewhat trite. If you enjoy "gritty realism" then you would probably enjoy it. Frankly I find his grasp on socio politics and military history to be lacking personally. He also relies a great deal on shock value, and once you get used to his style it becomes pretty easy to predict everything. But if you need reading material you could do worse. I myself read it while overseas because it was literally the only english book seties on sale in that miserable asian hell hole, and while I can't say I was overly enamored with them I did continue to read them and bought them all.

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>>53414002
This is what makes Game of Thrones worse than LOTR. Not bad, but still worse. See, GRRM doesn't realize that he can't, and shouldn't, focus on every small detail. Tolkien didn't include Aragorn's tax policy because he neither cared about it nor was his story focused on it. GRRM does care about those things, but he doesn't know enough about them to write them correctly. He should just focus on the knife and dagger and cultural and religious aspects of his stories, but he overextends into supply lines and ship navigation and other stuff he has little knowledge of.

>>53414920
>The Counts of Holland believed (or tried to make others believe) that they were direct descendants of the Trojans.
The earliest stories had the original britons as a boatload of lost trojans too.
>>53414943
>skipping parts of the book

>>53414980
Romans also believed they descended from the Trojans

>>53414897
>There is literally nothing to indicate that Eriador and Arnor were unsuitable for re-colonisation,
Once again, >>53414662. Eriador and Arnor were not uninhabited, and there is a damn good reason why no-one started effectively recolonizing it.

>>53414965
You mean like the "fact" that Lannisters are descended from a guy who stole gold from the sun and lived for 300 years?

>>53414567

There were people who believed they could trace their lineage back to Adam mate. If the starks wanna claim a thousand years that's not that big a deal in my opinion.

>>53414965
>It isn't a family legend or a myth.
It is though, because you read everything through the eyes of the characters itself. They believe that shit they think and say, but because nobody has ever told them otherwise they truly believe that the Starks were around 10.000 years ago.

Read the encyclopaedia of ASOIAF, that whole thing is supposed to be written by a maester and it shows, a lot of shit characters in the books take for granted (unbroken line of starks, kings living more then 300 years) this guy asks the real questions and marks some things as untrue.

GRRM uses the unreliable narrator, that goes especially for history and the like.

>>53414890
eriador has trees, it's just that the lands themselves are wilderness because there are too many orcs from the misty mountains and no kingdom to secure them.

>>53414980
>>skipping parts of the book
Oh no! I missed Brienne's pointless filler chapters!

>>53414965
>>53414965

To be fair the maesters' alllknowing and almost protoscientific concept always seemed propaganda to me. Don't really take their opinions for granted.

>>53414069
There are alignments in ASOIAF?

>>53415004
>>53414980
I think the Dutch and English stole that whole thing from the Romans desu

those medieval guys really liked larping as Romans.

>>53415007

You do realize this is a fantasy novel right? A fantasy novel where ice demons command legions of the undead, men can walk in the skin of beasts, a woman can give birth to a murderous shadow, and there are religious assasins who steal people's faces. Magic, we ain't gotta explain shit.

>>53414403
>>53414454
>>53414456
He burns several people (what a king allows to occur a king sanctions) in the books. several of the kings men burn after the failure of the blackwater

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>>53414107
>michael moorcuck
lel

>>53415050
>Oh no! I missed Brienne's pointless filler chapters!
Next thing you'll tell me, you skip Sansa chapters.

>>53415074
it is a form of execution. Gruesome, but so is chasing women and then skinning them alive.

>>53415046
The orcs don't normally leave the Misty Mountains, though, unless someone has gone down there and fucked with them directly. There's wargs I guess, but they just seem like Wolves 2.0 - nothing a few sturdy palisades couldn't keep out.

>>53414261
lotr = conservative country romance, needs more social justice warrioring

>>53415074
For every man he burns, there's a good reason for it. Executions are a thing that kings do.

>>53415040
>Read the encyclopaedia of ASOIAF, that whole thing is supposed to be written by a maester and it shows, a lot of shit characters in the books take for granted (unbroken line of starks, kings living more then 300 years) this guy asks the real questions and marks some things as untrue.
I've read the World of Ice and Fire and you give Martin way too much credit here. The "unbelievable narrator" in the WASOIAF isn't subtle like that, it's stuff like the author stating the Eyrie is not the most beautiful castle in the world. It isn't nuanced.

It is a lore book for the ASOIAF, with a little bit of character added by a Maestar narrator. It is still supposed to be mostly factual.

>>53415074
>execute some prisoners and traitors
>Everybody thinks you are a religious nutjob now

Stannis must really hate his wife

>>53415046
>>53415046

It's mostly moors, stunted trees. It should be a proper forest right now after... I dunno, 15 centuries after Arnor's fall?

>>53415088
>>53415088

Sansa is honeslty my favorite character. There, I said it.

>>53415109
the threat of orcs alone would keep most farmers away. Former arnor has largely fallen into ruin for the most part and people seem to be clustered around bree and the shire because the lands are safe and guarded by rangers.
Aragorn literally says that about Barliman and Bree. The rangers are simply too few to do actively secure land.

>>53415144
depends on the soil quality tbph.

>>53415124
I never wanted to say it's subtle, I just wanted to point out that it's there, and the unbelievable historical shenanigans can be linked to historical trends from the medieval period.

>>53415144
>Sansa is honeslty my favorite character. There, I said it.
Hating Sansa is a good way to spot a showfag, just like with Stannis. They really didn't do them services in the adaptation.

>>53415144
>>53415170
She tries, bless her dear little heart.

>>53415109
Orcs inhabit the remnants of Angmar as well, and sure as hell a permanent human settlement would attract their attention.

Sauron is literally pissing his pants at the thought of Gondorians re-uniting. Yet it is so hard for you to believe that he'd do anything in his power to stop Arnor being re-established, with what Arnor being the more "symbolic" kingdom of the two.

>>53415170
>>53415144
The Sansa chapter where Littlefinger explains how he will marry her as a Stark to the Eyries probable heir was fucking great.

>>53415170
>It's a "Sansa literally gets raped because D&D hate her character for not fucking Tyrion" episode

>>53414318
Targs might disagree

>>53414798
He was. Why do you think he rose from owning a bunch of rocks nobody wanted, living in a shitty tower and fucking the worse Tully sister to one of the most powerful men in Westeros and the one responsible for basically everything that happens?

>Captcha CLOSE Bolton
Evidently, Captcha disagrees on that spoiler.

>>53415170
>muh showfag
Really? Sansa's chapters become completely uninteresting after she leaves KL. In KL she was a gateway to interesting political intrigue. The Eyrie storyline has not picked up, and is completely uninteresting.

>>53415207
>Rhaegar fought valiantly
>Rhaegar fought nobly
>Rhaegar fought honorably
>and Rhaegar died

Targs BTFO!

>>53415144
It's only about a thousand years after Arthedain goes down, and even then, it's far from clear that everyone's gone and dead, just that the ruling line died out and there's no organized government. Barliman notes that there is still trade coming along the highways on a semi-regular basis to Bree.

>>53415197
re-uniting behind a king*

>>53415234
I like the bits where Littlefinger teaches her how to intrigue.
>>53415227
Bob is not the same thing as Petyr.

>>53415242
I really like mormont's character in the books
Tough ex sellsword returning back to the game.
Kinda feel bad for him too.
>his wife becomes some essosi harlot.

>>53415260
shit.

>>53415242
Rhaegar died with honor, Bobby B lost his waifu, literally got cucked out of Seven Kingdoms and died fat and miserable. I'd say Rhaegar was the real winner of that war.

>>53415234
plz
>>53415201

>>53415268
yeah, having your head smashed in sounds as winning

>>53415064
It's because it helps your claim to power seem more legitimate if you can trace your lineage back to some older authority.

Human beings are not particularly comfortable with the fact that all political authority is ultimately arbitrary, and exists at the whim of flawed and fallible humans. They look to purer, supposedly unbiased authorities - gods and previous ruling bodies - to legitimise their own order. If a god says your rule is legit, then it must be legit. If you're the successor to an older ruling power, then you must be legit, because those other guys were legit before you.

It was only after the Enlightenment that we started investing "the people" with the political authority to legitimise ruling bodies, effectively discarding any need for religious or lineal justifications of rule.

>>53415050
>Oh no! I missed Brienne's pointless filler chapters!
But if you didn't see the Gravedigger, how can you get hype for Cleganebowl?

>>53415268
>literally got cucked out of Seven Kingdoms and died fat and miserable
He cucked Cersei right back with all those whore's.

>>53415272
It wasn't that great. And even then, Sansa did a lot more in the Eyrie. She had exciting adventures like talking to another girl, building snow castles, babysitting and traveling up and down the Eyrie with mules. Great stuff.

>>53415321
You mean, all of those dead babies, who didn't inherit shit?

>>53415299
Is it heading for a showdown?

Still mad as fuck they had the Hound in the show but they did not do any kind of cleganebowl.

A man can still dream right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MWFLk6-SFs

>>53415103
Sure, they died, and the red priestess shouting prayers and calling them offerings to her god?

you act like they can't be both

>>53415333
>Sansa building snow Winterfell
>Not the best thing in the entire series
Shit taste

>>53415352
Yeah because Cercei's children are doing so well, they are either all dead, or one dead, one disfigured by that Dornish snowflake and Tommen

>>53415372
they were executed for crimes they committed you dumbass. They had the high septon at eddard's execution as well

>>53415378
>Not the best thing in the entire series
How the fuck is that the best thing in the entire series? Showing for the fucking umpteenth time that Sansa is sad her family got slaughtered? How is it "the best thing in the entire series"?

>>53415390
>They had the high septon at eddard's execution as well
He was executed on the steps to the Temple wasn't he?

That's hella religious

>>53415386
Tommen's got kittens though, I don't see Gendry getting a kitten anytime soon.

>>53415362
>but they did not do any kind of cleganebowl
A fight between the Hound and Robert Strong is not gonna happen because of some shitty trial about Cersei's infidelity, that would be lame. No, it should happen when Sandor pledges his sword to Sansa after rediscovering his purpose in life.

>>53415145

Also, Gondor. JRRT did something terrible to us worldbuilding fans: he never shows us the "normal" Gondor, far from war. THAT would be something we need to know.
The movie also fucks up greatly with Minas Tirith and the Pelennor, which doesn't help

>>53415168
>>53415168

It's the same soil in the Shire.

>>53415195
>>53415195

I think I like them for two reasons:
1) she grows like no other character (and she probably suffers more than anyone)
2) it's something kinda unique. She's the fucking princess in the dark tower, with a LOT of monsters keeping her there.
I get that basically every GRRM character is the "real grimndark version" of the stereotype characters (from the honorable lord and the hot queen from something more bizarre, like what if the dwarf was a real dwarf and what if the romantic warrior princess was some hugeass manly woman?) but Sansa is taking a not-character and making her a character. I like GRRM for shit like that.

I actually realized that my favorite characters are probably the most egregious examples of flipped tropes (Tyrion, Sansa, Brienne, even the last chapters' Cersei and Bran).

>>53415419
Strong handsome blacksmith boy is probably getting a lot of other felines though

>>53414083
What did Moorcock say?

>>53415432
>like what if the dwarf was a real dwarf
You got it right with the "stereotypes" thing, but completely missed the point of Tyrion. He's not a fantasy dwarf, he's an evil, disfigured henchman of the evil overlord. That overlord would be Dany herself, with her dragons, hair trigger temper and a weird army of sellswords, eunuchs and horsefuckers.

>>53415432
>she grows like no other character
The problem isn't that it isn't done that well. The "idealistic young person finds out how the world actually is" is a cliché

>>53414688
Mostly wars.

They also probably import more than they export, as they have to deal with harsher winters.

>>53415419
Gendry doesn't need no kittens, he has R'hllor - objectively the best god in Westeros.

>>53415478
There are 9 years between the start of Game of Thrones and the last Westerosi war.

>>53414255
Cause GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRM is trash.

>>53415418
yes.
the high sparrow mentions that. Literally had his head cut off in front of a saint

>>53415442
bad Pussy?

>>53415513

Do you have any idea how badly war's can ruin a place for that level of development? Look at the thirty years war, it left whole regions entirely depopulated and barren.

>>53414002
Its fiction, as in not based on real life fact. You want real life, read a history book. LotR would not have been nearly as interesting to the average reader if Tolkien spent three chapters describing the logistical break down of Sauron's army, or five chapters on the analysis of Saruman's GDP and annual fiscal budget.

>>53415432
because the story is about the War of the ring where gondor nearly has it's own shit pushed in. Beregond and berethil tell pippin a lot about the lands around gondor

Objective top five characters of ass-off (in no particular order)
>Ser Davos Seaworth
>Wyman Manderly
>Lord Bronn
>Tormund Giantsbane
>The Blackfish

>>53415544
The only mayor loss for most of Westeros was the loss of the Lannister fleet. Yeah the Iron Islands are probably still suffering but the rest of the kingdoms should be fine. The thirty years war is a pretty far out example to list, that one killed half the population of the HRE.

I don't know why you fags even like GoT. It's just the War of the Roses with an even shittier set of people behind it all, le edgy years of night time, and fucking lame ass frost monsters. The average DnD campaign has a more compelling story.

It isn't even close to trying to be original. It takes a real event and slaps on a bunch of one dimensional characters and the shittiest monsters I have seen in a long time. I would bet that even the people who like this trash can write a better story than this hack.

>>53414117

Because /tg/ has fucking autism.

>>53415588

Ah...you have a point. I wasn't thinking of the Iron born Rebellion when i mentioned it though, I was thinking of Robert's rebellion. A civil war can seriously fuck a place up.

>>53415544
>the thirty years war,
"let's compare a war that is known for being one of the most deadly wars in the history of europe, from an unequivalent time period to ASOIAF".

First of all, RR was a civil war. It's not like the Tully's are going to ravage their own land on par with the 30 years war. The war was very short, and with only a few battles. It was never implied to have been or described to have been anything on par with 30 years war.

>>53415585
>No Melisandre
>No Sansa
>No Ned Stark
>No ser Alliser Thorne
>No Euron Greyjoy
>No Victarion Greyjoy
Pretty shitty list tbqh senpai

>>53415513
And they are still paying the debts..

I'm not an austrianfag, but Little Finger was running a scam - he wasn't interested in a long-term sustainable fiscal/monetary policy. Much like a modern CEO he was rewarded according to how much growth there seemed to be during his tenure. He just took the job as a stepping stone.

>>53415588

>this guy doesn't know how expensive it was a for a fuedal power to build a navy
>this guy doesn't realize that the Spanish literally bankrupt themselves doing so.
>this guy doesn't realize how significant of a loss that was

>>53415585
Jaime
Blackfish
Tormund
Strong Belwas
Dunk the Lunk

>>53415414

Ah, but you don't remember that scene well.

It's after we see Sansa grew up. She thinks like a proper lady in a unteneable situation, and is even acting for her advantage. She has come a long way for someone like her and at her age. She has accepted her life and she's taking

Hell, in these part of the books she seems almost more intelligent than Littlefinger. I don't know if you realize what THIS means.

But GRRM then shows us like a little girl doing a snow castle of her home.

Without hope that she will ever see that or her family. Or that anyone will ever love her (and that's coming from Sansa).

Quietly, not crying or anything.

I'm not assuming anyone found it as heart-wrenching as it war for me, but I think I can safely say that he does this believably. It's not such a small feat.

>>53415419

Also the cat Arya chases is probably Balerion. I like to think he's the last of the Targaryen, in his own way.
>still a better ruler than Dany, we can agree on that I think

>>>53415474

Nah. That's not a cliché. That's the point of the series.

>>53415469

I guess in newer books he kinda is. I always tought he was somehow a take on the dwarf-knight of germanic folklore (rich, bizarre powers, mysterious, and not exactly trustworthy) as well as (duh) RPG dwarves.

>>53415144
>Sansa is honeslty my favorite character. There, I said it.
Honestly not a bad choice. I wouldn't call her my favourite but she beats meme characters like Dany and John Snow.

>>53415268
>If you kill your enemies they win

>>53415659
It's Lannisters, they shit gold, they can afford it.
>>53415672
>Strong Belwas
Fuck, I had a list of 5 but I couldn't remember him so I put Blackfish.

>>53415659
The Spanish bankrupted themselves because of Imperial overstretch, the poor management of local artisanry by the nobility and a constant influx of silver causing crippling inflation. The fleet wasn't that important.

But yeah fleets are pretty expensive. The city of Rotterdam in the Netherlands spent half of its budget for the year 1444 on building 20 ships.

>>53414002
I do agree with him. There's enough padding in LotR to have a few words on the political climate of the major nations of the setting.

GRRM is shit at worldbuilding but he got his politics storytelling nailed down. Tolkien is almost the opposite. Sanderson is a mediocre average of the two.

>>53415072
But people in the novels have misconceptions about all sorts of things. For instance, nobody south of the Wall understood giants as huge, primitive bipedal apes, but just as big people with giant castles and giant knights and so on.

>>53415699
Wouldn't you agree that Lannisters lost the moment they cut off Ned Stark's head? Wouldn't you agree that his honorable death destroyed their house in the long run?

>>53415746
>There's enough padding in LotR to have a few words on the political climate of the major nations of the setting.
Fellowship is my favourite of the three specifically because of the landscape filling.
>>53415774
That is true, but it doesn't mean Ned won.

>>53415737
Also the constant state of war from 1490 to 1700 didn't help either. in that period they had about 20 years of peace if you don't count the constant wars they fought with Indians in the Americas.

>>53415774
Yeah but the Starks aren't winning either.

>>53415678
>Ah, but you don't remember that scene well.
I remember it perfectly, you just don't have much literary experience. Sansa's story was predictable as fuck from page one and extremely cliché.

>>53415678
>That's not a cliché
It is. It's one of the most over done cliché's in the history of storytelling. And with GURM it's very poorly done, almost in a grimderp way. The Hound and Joffrey are quite literally just exact opposites of the romantic versions of their occupations. It's not at all well done with 0 nuance.

>>53415842
>Grand nothern conspiracy about to betray Boltons
>Jon Snow about to be resurrected and ride south
>Stannis is about to fuck people up during Battle of Ice
>Sansa is in the best position she can possibly be in
I think they've got this.

>>53415746

Tolkien and Martin represent two totally different views of politics. Martin represents the liberal "managerial economy" approach, where everything is about a leader acquiring and using power for his own ends. Tolkien's Ring is basically a very clear metaphor for Lord Acton's warning-- his benign minarchism looks juvenile to Martin, while Martin's amoral technocratic impulse looks diabolical to Tolkien.

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>>53414050
>>53414050
>>53414050
Absolutely this. Well said.

You can write a good story with certain realistic elements, you can write a good story without them. In general I prefer fantasy to be fantastic; any similarity to reality or real events is secondary to the rules of the setting or the goals of the plot.

I seek entertainment and escapism first and foremost. Whether that means gritty realism or happily ever after depends on my mood. I respect his preference, but I can't say I share it.

>>53415681

okay Dany a shit, and has always been a shit, but Snow is one of the only decent characters left and he has an interesting story line. If anyone is a meme character it's fucking tyrion.

>>53415867
>Jon Snow about to be resurrected and ride south
Pls no, he said the words and has armies of ice zombies to attend to.

>>53415867
>Winterfell burned down to the ground
>Longest winter in ages coming and half the northern population is either dead or dying
>Other half is fighting a combination of Wildings/Bolton Loyalists/Stark Loyalists/Ironborn
>Winter is coming
>Only a single female remains from the main line, rest are thought to be dead

Nah they got a lot of work to before they will be in a workable position.

>>53415028
Yeah, but antediluvian people lived for 1000 years.

>>53415941
What the fuck happened to Rickon, he and Osha left Bran and we haven't heard of them since, unless they've been in a preview for TWoW that I haven't read.

>>53415878
It's a good interpretation. However both aspects of this storytelling has its problems. Tolkien's realms and kingdoms feel like scenery, and GRRM's politics hide the overarching plot.

>>53415984
They're on Skagos, and Davos is sent to retrieve them. I don't think it's quite going to work out, because of what Rickon's direwolf is called.

>>53415941
>Winterfell burned down to the ground
Where do you think all the Boltons currently are, and what is Stannis trying to capture?
>Bolton Loyalists
There are literally only two houses that are Bolton loyalists. And one of them are Boltons.

>>53416028
What's he going to do, bite off his fingers?

>>53415984
It's revealed in one of the Davos chapters of Dance that he went to Skagos. It's the chapter where Davos has an audience with based Manderly

>>53415681

Dany is a strange beast to me. On a hand jesus christ George, I think Zero Kara's Emilia is more believable. On the other hand... I dunno, in Essos, were everything is more like a fairytale ... she isnt' that bad at being some sort of Alice in Wonderland (the magical queen? Well, she's a teenager. With morals, even). Wonderpolitics, Wonderwars, whatever. I see Essos as something more akin to pulp fantasy, tough, which I'm not sure anyone will agree on.
>I do think Clarke's interpretation kinda ruined her for me. Not because she's bad but now I can't unsee her going stripperific for a month under the sun. With silver hair. Yes, I know it's in the books, but still.

Jon is pretty boring, but I will say his last "now I great geopolitican" kinda redeemed him in part. He did kinda seem an older teenager when they're better than their peers and they become extremly selfcentered (not egoistical, selfcentered).

>>53415849

Examples of characters like Sansa, especially in fantasy?

Nah. If it's the point ot the book, it's not a cliché. It might boring as fuck, why not? But it's not a cliché.

>>53415910

The quirk with Tyrion is that he's more or less the only character that doesn't have delusions at the start of the books. He grows them, and THEN discards them.

>>53414002
Why is this thread posted every day?

>>53414041
He doesn't make at all every day. That's why the books are not coming.

>>53416157
Is a new season coming out soon?
If so, that'll be why, if not it's just the latest spammed b8 threads, like excuse me sir.

>>53414398
>He thinks LoTR orcs have babies.

"the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar"

They most likely do.

>>53416239
>>53416239

He even conceded there are orc woman in a letter.

That anon literally felt for PJ's Saruman.

>>53416193
It's still a few months away, it seems.
These threads are just the freshest new b8.

>>53415028
Wouldn't everyone technically be able to trace their lineage back to Adam and Eve, though?

>>53414255

It triggers Tolkienfags who have a hard-on for benevolent autocracies that conveniently hand-wave away all the troublesome nitty-gritties of real life.

Just look at the faggot crying about Moorcock here. >>53414295 This is basically typical of the Tolkienfags, most or all of whom are closet monarchists (or in some cases, open monarchists).

>>53414275
Stannis is a bad ruler with a track record of failure, and a miserable hypocritical asswipe of a person. Yes, I'm talking books.

>>53416341

To be totally fair in JRRT's world the hobbits are anarchists of a kind.

>>53414002
>What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine?

Well, given that you've writen approximately nothing on how rulers of Westeros do any of these things, despite dedicating five whole fucking books instead of an epilogue to matters of rulership and politics, you should just shut the fuck up, Gurrm.

>By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains.

And read actual books of the better authors instead of synopsises, for fuck's sake. By the end of the war orcs and other creatures of Sauron are driven suicidally insane.

>>53414747

The prince you're thinking of is Imrahil. Basically hyped up to be a badass important character, does some cool shit during the Gondor siege but is otherwise never seen or heard from again.

I always imagine Imrahil as being black for no reason other then because in the Starcraft Minas Tirith siege maps Duran was always the character model they used for Imrahil kek

>>53416497
>And read actual books of the better authors instead of synopsises, for fuck's sake. By the end of the war orcs and other creatures of Sauron are driven suicidally insane.

>>53416518

Dol Amroth people are described as relatively swarthy indeed.

Put that pipeweed down Tom Bombadil.

>>53414465
>2000 years
Right. The most recent history in which suddenly population, culture and technology exploded at unprecedented rates. The two thousand years built only builds squarely on ten thousand years or more of accumulated development in every conceivable fields from animal husbandry, to language, to statesmanship and law, to medicine, and so on.

Indeed, compared to these last two thousand years. AS OPPOSED to the hundreds of thousands of years of what practically amounts to fuck-all in comparison.

I'm not even a big GoT fan but by the sweet lord almighty you're such a insufferably pseudointellectual pretentious fffucking cuntstain, it makes my piss boil. Give me unintelligent or dull-witted people any day, just not your particular brand of misguided self-fellating peanut gallery heckling horseshit.

Is that faggot who might be from the rebel targ house from dunk and egg in the TV show at all?
Fuck I lost most interest so long ago I can't even remember the name, blackfyre?

I meant LotR. And also, that post is full of typos.
I can't think straight with all this seething hatred.

>>53415545

Well there can be interesting plothooks from it.

Say the Human race tensions between each other as war taxes forments discontent and even some humans betraying their people to join Sauron's human armies or to plunder the land after being taxed for so long.

For Sauron's armies, the issue of loot and treasure becomes a murderous point as with all races of evil hate to give up their share.

You don't need to be in depth with economics but often the issue of a war tax's toll on the people would be a good plot hook in the story.

>>53414436

He appointed competent taxmen with thugs to back them up, put the useless bread and circuses taxmen to the sword. Simply put he wasn't Robert spending his money on feasting and women albeit at the cost of the people's happiness.

And /tg/ please refer to CGP Grey's Rules for Rulers 10:30 on why would something like taxes be a good plot point

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs

>>53414107
>valid
How is it valid?

The themes of lotr did not deal with what that fatso wants out of fantasy

Thats just a matter of taste.

>>53416576
Daemon Blackfyre?

>>53416658
>CGP grey
Why would you use him instead of the one (1) book he is plagiarizing in his video? Even then his video is an opinion, not a consensus, portrayed as a fact.

>>53416658
>Well there can be interesting plothooks from it.

There can be interesting plothooks from literally anything, that doesn't mean lotr needs to give a single fuck about taxes or plumbing or whatever other stupid shit is currently being memed about

>>53416690
He meant Aegon.

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>>53416774

Fuck off you fat hack piece of shit

>>53416341
You can go to bed now Moorcock. Yes everyone who doesn't like your grimderp setting is a krypto/proto/super fascist. We know. Despite the fact that the LOTR and TL is filled with bad kings, Tolkien is obviously a monarchist. And the millions of people moved by his books too.

>>53416690
Yeah other anon got it, aegon, but yeah blackfyre
Did a Daemon game on the asoiaf CK2 mod, that was rough shit

>>53414364
he's going to be 1,000th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

>>53416797

I admit that I smiled.

>>53416838
>Jeor is 997
>Jon is 998
>???? is 999

>>53414697
Don't feel so bad. I realised that from the start, but I didn't realise for ages that tortilla chips were made out of tortillas.

>>53416797
See, that's good meming. It's a meme thread full of on-topic memery.

these threads, where poorly-informed pseudointellectuals have 'serious debates' over the same points ad nauseum with trolls, are hot garbage and you should all feel bad

>>53416825
>>53416825

Well, Tolkien WAS a monarchist IRL.

>>53416825
>being a monarchist is a bad thing these days
i hope you step on a lego.

>>53415452
Moorcock thinks that the writing style and themes of LotR serve primarily to "comfort" it's readers with easy, simplistic escapism rather than "challenge" them.

He calls it vacuous on a similar level to Winnie-the-Pooh, and asserts that "escapist" fiction in general is bad because they give people a way to distract themselves from challenging real-life issues rather than think about them.

>>53414168
>Doom
>Traditionally means "destiny/fate/the future"
>Cliche connotations recent

>>53416925
moorcock can argue shit is too simple when he actually learns to write worth half a shit, otherwise that particular argument is completely and utterly invalid.

>>53416881
He wasn't though. It is explained here pretty well: https://www.quora.com/Why-does-The-Lord-of-the-Rings-glorify-a-monarchy-if-it-was-written-by-Tolkien-who-lived-in-the-UK-in-a-time-of-increased-democracy

He doesn't support any notions of divine right or monarchist inheritence. At best you'd call him an anarcho-monarcist, which is vastly different from mainstream monatchism

>>53414430
lawful stupid
chaotic neutral
chaotic evil

>>53416959

Still pretty much a monarchist.

>>53414002
>Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?
Please tell me the fat idiot didn't actually said that and it's some pasta meme. I mean did anyone told him there is no such thing as child orcs?

>>53416994
>>53416994

But there is.

http://middle-earth.xenite.org/are-there-female-orcs-in-middle-earth/

>>53416982
Not really though. He completely opposes "real" monarchism.

>>53416944
It doesn't even matter if it's well written or not. Moorcock is trying to be political, so there's not a force in the universe that could make his work anything other than an attempt at manipulation.

It could be an effective one or an ineffective one, and it could be a palatable one or an impalatable one, but unless you want what he's selling you've got no business in his shop.

>>53414002
It never cease to amaze me how the guy has meme-tier autism about taxes, but then construct a setting that almost entirely consists of fuck-huge tracks of empty land, the tax policies are retarded, the population density is pretty much non-existing, and yet there is always an army ready to be rised, even if there is just a literal handful of cities and fucking zero infrastructure to construct anything bigger than a scythe, not to mention outfitting an army. An army that comes out of thin air, since there are barely any people to conscript in the first place.
And then there is the retarded idea that if someone is a feudal king, then his vassals will simply follow, because hey, the king said so! Surely we should follow, even if he's directly hurting our interests in some retarded war...

Irony in its finest

This one does bug me. While his point is well taken, if the king was wise, just, and skilled at war and administration, the land most likely would prosper.

>>53416925
I never got how someone could see LoTR or Silmarilion as comforting. Hobbit maybe.

>>53417088
Have you actually read the Silmarilion? It has a ultragod. It's comforting in the same way christianity is comforting- yeah there's bad shit now but don't worry it's all part of God's plan and he loves you and all the bad shit is just testing you etc. etc.

They're 'Big Picture' comforting, not 'tea in the cozy hobbit hole' comforting, but comforting nonetheless.

>>53416925
wasn't this shit for children in the first place?

>>53417152
I have read the Silmarilion. I don't think you have though. The Ainulindalë is a small fraction of the story. Everything else is just death and destruction. Not very comforting.

Even then the plan for men is unknown, not very comforting, and the Gift of Men is death: Something which is very comforting on a very esoteric level.

The Silmarilion is not comforting.

>>53417088

Well, I'm not gonna say I totally agree with that point* but he means that in LOTR the world is sad and decaying...

... but not only evil can be fought off anyway, in the end this sadness purifies your feelings. I think there is a line in which he talks about "blessed sadness" literally.
Combine this with the fact that anger is bad shit in LOTR that ends only in the Dark Side, and you can see where Moorcock was coming from.

*=I think what he says about JRRT's prose is the real problem, and very real.

>>53414550
The axis of law (realm serving, neutral, self-serving)
The axis of honour (honourable, neutral, treacherous)
The axis of will (true iron, slimy, toady)
I like that.

Jaime: neutral, neutral, iron
Tyrion: realm, treacherous, iron
Daenerys: neutral, neutral, slimy
Jon Snow: oscillates between realm and neutral, honourable, slimy
Robert Baratheon: self, neutral, iron
Sansa: neutral, neutral, toady
Euron: self, treacherous, iron
Victarion: neutral, treacherous, slimy

What else?

>>53417152
>Have you actually read the Silmarilion
I think the better question is while you may have, did you comprehend any of it at all?

>>53414002
I really don't see why this thread is here and not /lit/

>>53415242

kinda weird that a rapist who was so rapey he started a continent shattering war with his dick has such a reputation for honor.

>>53417057
>William Marshal wouldn't side with king John, he'd be hurting his own interests

>>53417220
>toady
>Sansa
Have you actually read the books?

>>53417234
Take your head out of your ass. Why would someone feel comforted by The Silmarilion? All of the Christian perfect afterlife is reserved for the Elves. Men get death, and an unknown afterlife dictated by a god, who thinks death is a gift.

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>>53414002
>medieval
Stop that, it's early dark age at the very latest.

>>53417425

Ideals, not technology.

>which is prett sketchy in ME anyway. The Hobbits had firematches.

>>53415878
>Tolkien's Ring is basically a very clear metaphor for Lord Acton's warning

Wow, someone else on the Internet finally got this. Everyone's always claiming the Ring of Power is a metaphor for this or that, but it's in the name - the Ring IS Power. Tolkien's views on government were decidedly old-fashioned, and I love that about him.

>>53417539

JRRT himself bought the death metaphor tough.

"But I should say, if asked, the tale is not really about Power and Dominion: that only sets the wheels going; it is about Death and the desire for deathlessness. Which is hardly more than to say it is a tale written by a Man!" (Letter 203, 1957)

"It is mainly concerned with Death, and Immortality; and the 'escapes': serial longevity, and hoarding memory." (Letter 211, 1958)

>>53417502
Those ideals are way older than medieval times.

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>>53414002
Yes

Smite and cleave, until it is done

>>53417659

I can't think of classical examples, actually.

>>53416341
Tolkien was, in his own words, someone who favored a "conservative anarchy," and he was, rightly, I think, suspicious of democracy because it brought government into everyone's lives.

>inb4 Monarchist

Nope, I favor the early American style, with a nice sweet spot right between an oligarchy and a popular republic. Democracy is simply bad, but so is French-style "I am the State" monarchy. I think Tolkien had a similar view, but his "sweet spot" of government landed more on the traditional English constitutional monarchy, which I am admittedly sympathetic to.

"Tolkienfags," if basing their thoughts on Tolkien's own, would generally hold a busybody government in low regard, dislike democracy, and also dislike absolute monarchs.

So basically you're probably going to find that a whole lot of us are classical liberals, small-r republicans, and other sorts of traditional views that would really rather have government protecting the people and that's about it, the system doesn't matter so long as it's not too centralized.

>>53417577
Huh, that's interesting. I hadn't come across those before, thanks anon.

>>53415917
Vows complete.

"Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death."

>>53417170
The Hobbit definitely was, since it was based off of a bedtime story he told his kids. Not sure about LoTR and the Silmarillion though.

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>>53416910
Being a monarchist has always been a bad thing.

>>53417854

To be totally fair I think he was kind exaggerating when he basically denied the cold war/ww2 metaphor, honestly. I get that you don't think germans were orcs John, but i think Saruman DOES have some hitler/stalin vibes and you knew it.

Hell, I have the strange feeling the whole "dwarves reclaiming home" isn't that much of a chance either, considering the period and that Dwarfs are fantasy Jews by canon.

>maybe in due time we'll think Westeros anarchy as a child of the apparent chaos of a multipolar world, who knows

>>53418038

>tfw no fantasy French Revolution

>>53418038
>implying that event wasn't the worst thing that ever happened

>>53414002
His premise rests on the idea that "good" means "incompetent" or "weak."

Good men don't suffer the injustice of evil men. There's a reason why it's "thou shall not murder" and not "thou shall not kill."

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>>53418102
Sic semper tyrannis

>>53414002
Who honestly takes this fat fuck with his FAT PINK MAST and SHITTING BROWN WATER shock value garbage seriously?

>>53418102
Not him, but what are you supposed to do when the first person of the state commit the highest form of treason? Hell, modern days USA would execute someone in his situation without a second thought while even revolutionary France took the time to think twice about it.

Wow, look at all these posts with discussion of traditional games, as expected of the dedicated traditional games board!
This thread isn't off topic at all!

>>53418167
No it fucking doesn't you moron. He's saying that the king being a 'good man' isn't the sole attribute of a successful and stable leader. One of the key themes of grrrrrm's writings is that 'the game of thrones' is a fucking mess of overlapping interests and means and simply having good intentions and a desire to help isn't enough.

It's the entire point of ned stark's character.

Now quit being intentionally obtuse.

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>>53418218
>/tg/ is purely for discussion of tabletop game mechanical crunch

you know this is not the case and yet you slap your fat fingers in the comment box regardless

>>53418235

Ned is an interesting example now that I think of it because I can easily see a paladin done right having his same ideas.

And failing HARD at considering what is good for his people.

>>53418235
Ned isn't remotely a good example of how "you need to be more than a good ruler" or whatever, since ... he wasn't a ruler.

>and simply having good intentions and a desire to help isn't enough.

It probably would be if Tyrion was tall.

>>53417057
>tracks
tracts!

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>>53418300
>not a ruler
>literally the lord of the north and the king's hand

If Tyrion were tall he'd have been generally hated for something else or someone would have had him killed by now since he would have posed a visible threat.

>>53418300

But he was. Feudalism, bitches.

>>53418235
And it's not like being a dick lead you to success either, cruelty end you just as well as naivety.

>>53418321
>If Tyrion were tall
He would have been a totally different person to begin with I guess.

>>53418235
Tolkien stuck to topics he was competent with and interested in. There's nothing there to critique, because that's good wordcraft. GRRM's showboating over nothing and attacking an superior writer because he doesn't understand that.

It's a mummer's fart.

>>53414002
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAAp_luluo0

>>53418341

>Upon this a question arises: whether it be better to be loved than feared or feared than loved? It may be answered that one should wish to be both, but, because it is difficult to unite them in one person, is much safer to be feared than loved, when, of the two, either must be dispensed with. Because this is to be asserted in general of men, that they are ungrateful, fickle, false, cowardly, covetous, and as long as you succeed they are yours entirely; they will offer you their blood, property, life and children, as is said above, when the need is far distant; but when it approaches they turn against you. And that prince who, relying entirely on their promises, has neglected other precautions, is ruined; because friendships that are obtained by payments, and not by greatness or nobility of mind, may indeed be earned, but they are not secured, and in time of need cannot be relied upon; and men have less scruple in offending one who is beloved than one who is feared, for love is preserved by the link of obligation which, owing to the baseness of men, is broken at every opportunity for their advantage; but fear preserves you by a dread of punishment which never fails.

>>53418405

(cont.)

>Nevertheless a prince ought to inspire fear in such a way that, if he does not win love, he avoids hatred; because he can endure very well being feared whilst he is not hated, which will always be as long as he abstains from the property of his citizens and subjects and from their women. But when it is necessary for him to proceed against the life of someone, he must do it on proper justification and for manifest cause, but above all things he must keep his hands off the property of others, because men more quickly forget the death of their father than the loss of their patrimony. Besides, pretexts for taking away the property are never wanting; for he who has once begun to live by robbery will always find pretexts for seizing what belongs to others; but reasons for taking life, on the contrary, are more difficult to find and sooner lapse. But when a prince is with his army, and has under control a multitude of soldiers, then it is quite necessary for him to disregard the reputation of cruelty, for without it he would never hold his army united or disposed to its duties.

>>53414002

Gosh, you mean in he long-view his specific policies Don't Matter and are only relevent in sofar as they are the reason he got the results he did? When i say "he was a good king" that means he was both just and successful. There's all kinds of ways to describe a king, from naive(generally good but incompetent) to cruel(a terrible person who did horrific things, but was skilled as a ruler), and ignoring this basic understanding of human speec and communication to get a hit in on the biggest name jn fantasy just makes me think you aren't capable of competingwith him unless you frame many of his narrative decisions as mistakes and not merely choices you wouldn't have made.

>>53418061
Also, the Ents bear some parallels to WWII America.

Complete with mushroom clouds.

>>53414002
So you want to apply GRRM to Tolkein eh? Okay, lets break down the major factions.

Rohan: semi-nomadic horse people with more in common with the Comanche or Crimeans then with western societies. Sheep and cattle herding are their entire economy, for some reason have not expanded into the massive empty areas around the Sea of Rhun.

Mordor: Run by a secret and amazing government of hyper-meritocratic burecrats. They somehow take orders from an eyeball that cannot talk, distribute them among many countries (like 10+) and several species. Their tax policies and trade are sufficient to feed tens of thousands of troops stationed in a lava bed/wasteland, and keep them equipped in decent armor and with siege weapons.

Gondor: Can't be held despite being a magical bottleneck with a single active front, loses fortress after fortress made of unbreakable super-concrete. Denethor is pleb tier.

>>53418217
>implying a king can commit treason
Can't betray yourself, anon.

But beside that, what exactly was his treason? King Louis XVI didn't send the army against the people until they were already in revolt.

>>53418367
You are really seven inches of tongue up tolkien's skeletal anus huh.

JRT wrote from a simplistic and romantic lens based in a folkloric style. Good people do good things to a good quality. That's fucking fine and if you interpret martin as 'attacking' your precious waifu then you're a fucking assburger. If you have spent more than 30 seconds looking into gurm and tolk beyond /tg/ memes you'd know that he's a huge fan of LotR and Arda in general and considers tolkien to be a massive inspiration.

Gurm is saying that this perspective, while perfectly fine for the kind of setting that middle earth was, wasn't a setting with any realistic political conflict or strife. He clearly prefers the style that he writes, hence the fact that he writes it. Georgey is fairly well-read in his political history, which is precisely what he writes.

If your idea of a hack fraud author is that he fucks up port and starboard then you really shouldn't actually start digging deeper into your waifu tolkien's work or you may develop some minor PTSD from the fact that he also made
dumb mistakes from time to time.

Now please, unless you've got more to bring to the table than TOKLIEN R GOOD, WHY GURM B MEAN TO TOKLIEN!? please find a DnD general to shitpost in.

Fucking cockstain.

>>53418553

I hereby request a drawfag to make us a picture of a cute little Tolkien waifu.

>>53418524
>They somehow take orders from an eyeball that cannot talk,

This is just a Jacksonism but point taken.

>>53418534
He was attempting to join a foreign enemy country with the intention of waging war against his own country for his own power.
And that's after two years of spreading corruption and trying to get his country defeated.

And no, the country isn't the king, that idea died long before the French revolution. Even the king didn't thought like that at that point.

>>53417704
What, that a good leader = good nation?
It's part of why Romans made their names so damn long so as to get any pedigree they could find.

>>53418580
I'm aware. I think he would have been more like walking into a haunted house, shades whispering and shadows moving and a feeling of despair and terror.

>>53418102
It was one of the most morally grey-and-grey events in pop history? Louis XVI was an incompetent ruler, and the revolutionists were bloodthirsty idiots. Nobody was in the right in the French revolution.

>>53414200
>He never was satisfied with the Orcish question. It nagged at him until his death.

fucking posuer

orcs come from steaming mudpiles, everybody knows that.

GOT is fucking garbage. Its betrayal porn.

>>53414002
That's not what the Lord of the Rings is about or meant to be about.

>>53418553
Why is it that pro-GRRM modernists evince such an uncannily reliable regression to vulgarity in the face of dissent? words are wind m8.

>>53414002
Have you ever considered that Tolkein wasn't writing history? Their world doesn't operate that way, it's like complaining how King Arthur is totally unrealistic or how Beowulf isn't realistic. That's part of the point - it isn't realistic. This isn't grim fantasy or realistic fantasy. It is high fantasy.

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>>53418553
>There are people genuinely defending GRRRRRRRRRRRR and his shit

>>53414002
Fuck off with your hack writer's babble.

>>53418578
You mean like how /a/'s waifu is iirc, ron paul?

>>53414002
Is this nigger seriously saying we should not genocide all orcs, including the babies ?
What next, letting elves lives in peace in their forest, dwarves in their mountains, and mexicans in Texas ?

Of course not, we need to purge them all.

>>53418367
Remember that panel with King and how King basically roased the fat fuck without even desire to be mean? And we are talking about post-car accident King here, so basically a zombie.

>>53419651
*roasted

>>53419643
u wot

>>53418367
Well, there is a saying in my country that roughtly translates into "If you ain't a name, make one by attacking names". It suits GRRM to the T.

>>53414002
GOT follows a very easy and predictable formula. Find a righteous man, then kill and betray him in the most brutal fashion imaginable. Rinse, Wash, Repeat. The minute somebody starts to act like a hero, they die.

Its not clever, its not good writing, its just voyeurism. People don't have the guts to inflict cruelty themselves, so they root for whoever will do it for them.

>>53419651
King has no right to roast anyone. I wasted my entire adolescence reading that hack. He made me want to be a writer.

If he hadn't insinuated that your success has something to do with the quality of your content, I would have never got suckered into this massive ponzi sheme.

>>53419694
Thing is, if you skip the whole shock factor, there is literally nothing left. It's kind of the same shit as you have with The Witcher books. They are supposedly super-funny in original language. Translated into English? Holy fuck, what a generic piece of trash.
ASOIAF has similar relation not with language, but with violence. The moment you look through it and focus on the story proper, ignoring all the antics, you realise you are reading a generic piece of kingmaking trash fantasy.

>>53414398
To be fair, birth in LotR is an odd concept anyway.
Elves don't proper die, they go to the halls of Mandos and return later. Thus, no elves are ever removed from the world.
However, they do give birth. So and so is the child of whoever etc.

So are the unborn children waiting with Mandos somewhere for their parents to get it on? If so, what about half elven children, because they got the choice of being human or elven.
If not, is there just an ever expanding population, slowing growing and taking over Valinor? Is it just standing room only over there, now?

Then do the returning elves just pop into their body rebuilt, or are they reborn? If so, that's fucking creepy as they remember everything (Glorfindel was special in LotR as he'd seen the light of the trees, despite having died in Gondolin etc), so you've got super infants roaming around?

>>53419726
That's my entire fucking point - even fucking King managed to roast GRRM. And he didn't even wanted to.
Also, pre-accident King was really good. I mean his output combined with the quality of said output... you don't come up with such stuff too often.
And especially not when you realise every single "big" author in entertainment literature for past 25 years is a one-hit wonder, who wrote 3-7 books within single cycle and that's all.

>>53417539
Did other people not learn about the ring being the ring plato talked about?

>>53419753
I dunno, I mean he is a competent writer, (I'm assuming) and most everything he does is based on historical anecdotes, but you remove the cruelty, the betrayal and the brutality by cutting away offscreen, would people watch it?

A good writer doesn't need to offend you to tell a good story, they can let their work stand on its own merit.

>>53419726
So let me get this straight - King is a hack, but the fat fuck is not?
Who are you kidding? Yourself?

>>53414472
The first three books are good, 4th was okay but lacked some oomph. A Dance with Dragons (The most recent at 5, 6? years old) advanced the plot somewhat, but is a meandering mess desperately in need of an editor. He kind of wrote himself into a corner and you can see him trying to get out of it, but it doesn't make it better to read. Decent enough, but if the last couple wind up following like that it'll taint the whole series.
His writing style has gotten worse, too.

>>53419813
>I mean he is a competent writer, (I'm assuming)
Your assumption is wrong. Very, very, very fucking wrong.
And the big plot-twist is that the entire series is written from random inspiration to random inspiration, with no REAL story. Just whatever the fuck he comes up with, then figuring out how to put it into the pre-existing context. Why the hell you think it took more and more time with each book? Because he had to start sorting shit out and actually putting effort to it, rather than piling up more and more random ideas.
And now he literally waits for HBO to do the hard work for him.

>>53419851
Not for long, AT&T wants to cut each episode down to 20 minutes to cater to mobile viewers

>>53414069
Alignments are inappropriate for Game of Thrones.

Say GRRM was a writer in the 50's. Would he still be successful? Would people still read him or would they consider it tasteless trash?

You could say the same thing about King. If he had to follow the rules regarding censorship during that era, do you think he could have been successful?

>>53417220
Dany is Slut alignment there's barely anything else to her character

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>>53414069
>What alignment is he?
If the only way you can analyze any work of fiction is through the lens of D&D alignments, then you are not a critic anybody should take seriously.

>>53419851
I don't really think that is fair. I read his first book and the guy can string two sentences together, he can move the plot from point A to point B. His typeset is pro-quality, something that is not easy to do in the modern era.

Its just that he relies on sadism to sell books. Its like that experiment they did on college students where they had them electrocute a dude in another room.

>>53419885
Nope and yes.

Mostly because GRRM can't write for shit and King, if pressed or feeling like it, juggles genres like a pro. He wrote a bunch of really good thrillers and standard, non-supernatural crime stories, so go figure.

>>53419945
The electrocution wasn't an experiment of sadism it was an experiment of how far people are willing to go to listen to authority and presumed experts.

>>53419945
You've literally read his best book, period. Everything that goes after the first, goes down. Everything after the 3rd doesn't just go down, it fucking nose-dives.

And stringing two sentences together is something you expect from average schoolkid, not someone writing for a living. I'm "harsh" solely because if you call yourself a writer, you better be good at this shit.

I used to like King cause I felt like he had a "Good guy" mentality. That there was a line and you do not cross it. You might say its boring or its predictable, but I found it comforting. Not to say that his protagonist don't sometimes fall, but when they do they don't have anyone to blame but themselves.

>>53419945
The point of Milgram experiment was about listening orders, you nitwit. Hell, the entire fucking point of it was the "researcher" taking full responsibility for everything, so people did that for "his" account rather than their own.

>>53419985
>I'm "harsh" solely because if you call yourself a writer, you better be good at this shit.

You're expecting quite a lot for you're 10 dollar investment in print media.

>>53419945
>Defending GRRM
>Not knowing what was the point of Milgram's test
I see you are learning from your fav writer, picking things out of their context and then calling it "doing research"

>>53419563
>evince such an uncannily reliable regression to vulgarity in the face of dissent

I'd say mostly because you're talking to them on 4chan.

>>53420017
>You can't expect quality from a book
People like you disgust me. So let me get this straight - if the book was costing 100 dollars, I could be entitled for quality? Or that wouldn't be enough and it would have to cost 200?
It's like you are purposefully trolling here, because I deny to acknowledge there might be someone genuinely so fucking stupid.

>>53420008
yeah, exactly. People don't have the guts to root for the bad guy, but they can sure as hell tear down anyone who tries to act like a hero. They support the antagonists by only becoming engaged when the protagonist gets his comeuppance. They are complicit in inflicting the cruelty upon the protagonist, but feel they don't have to accept responsibility so long as the story continues to follow whoever is "the good guy" this week.

>>53420054
>>53420025
Why don't you calm your tits you turbonigger. If you are looking to take your teenage angst out on somebody I'm sure there is a stray puppy you can go kick.

>>53420062
>Missing the point this bad
>Bending reality this hard to match own thesis
I rest my case.

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>>53420017
Not him but this is an absolutely imbecilic defense. The quality expected of a professional does not change with asking price, it could be something done for fucking free and I would expect a certain level of quality if a professional was actually releasing it as a professional published work and not a one-off joke.

>>53420062
But that's not the fucking point of the Milgram experiment. It's not that people 'wanted' to hurt others but seeing at what point people decided to explicitly back out in violation of their contract and 'responsibilities'. Stop fucking taking things out of context and literally lying for your fucked up moralizing attempts.

>>53420054
>>53420025
I'm saying you are not at all invested in the authors success, so why should he cater to your interests?

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>>53420062

Anon, what are you smoking?

>>53420090
I'm only one of those two anons. What now?
And nice knowing it's "teenage angst" (by the way, that's adult only board) when you don't accept shit-tier literature. It's like having a taste of any kind is that defines teens nowdays. Funny, if not ironic.

>>53420054
Rave and rant all you want about it, 90% of fiction is crap.

>>53420111
Because he's a writer? That means there is certain quality standard to hit to call yourself a writer, and not being, you know, a fucking hack?

>>53420103
So you're telling me there is no correlation between the desire to inflict cruelty vicariously in a simulated psychology experiment and the desire to inflict cruelty vicariously through punishing the protagonist for behaving morally? That people aren't reading because they just want to see how far he will go before HBO takes him off the air?

>>53420135
>Rave and rant
Anyone told you to start a cinema with those projecting skills of yours?

>>53420141
Literature IS crap.
Its just a bunch of people who haven't got the guts to experience life writing and pining about all the things they wish they could do but never had the guts to follow through with.

>>53420090
>Why don't you calm your tits you turbonigger
Oh the irony

>>53420146
Not him, but that experiment was NOT about desire to inflict anything to anyone. People were actively revolted by the damage they were inflicting. It was about listening to a guy, solely because the guy wears a white coat and has a dashboard in his hand.
It's like you are trying to bend reality just to fit your statement, rather than accepting the experiment wasn't even related with the issue you are rising.

>>53420172
5edgy3me

>>53420141
>implying he isn't a hack
He is literally a hack, and I don't even mean it as an insult but as the actual term. He found a forumla that works and excessively spams it instead of actually advancing the story and providing meaningful development.

>>53420146
>desire to inflict cruelty vicariously in a simulated psychology experiment
It doesn't exist. There was no desire to inflict cruelty vicariously. It was a lesser form of saying "shoot them on my order" and you saying "yes sir" because he's your fucking boss instead of "fuck off sir". You literally have no idea what you are talking about. It was not a desire to inflict cruelty in fact the logs explicitly state that almost all participants were severely shaken by the end and at least a few went into what amounted to a state of shock. The experiment did not prove a desire to inflict cruelty, it very nearly proved the opposite. What it showed was that people are willing to ignore what they personally want because there's an authoritative figure who is an 'expert' near them.

>>53420172
Let me guess: there is also nothing original left or possible. Oh, and unless something is well-grinded paste, it's a pretentious, overthinked intellectualistic bullshit. And... wait, what was the 4th one? Oh, right - people desire sex and violence, because they are all primitives animals driven by basic instincts.

Are you at least aware this page is NOT for underage users? And you sound hella underage with your edge

>>53420190
there are easier ways to land an internship than attaching electrodes to some dudes scrote.

If they didn't want to see how the experiment played out they wouldn't have continued to participate. They just needed somebody else to accept responsibility for their actions.

>>53420190
And I'm not denying he's a hack, because my entire point is about him being unable to write for shit.
Thing is, he calls himself a writer. Yet he can't fucking deliver what's expected from a writer. Henceforth my sneering remarks about him being shit.

Does it really need an explaination?

>>53420227
>there are easier ways to land an internship than attaching electrodes to some dudes scrote.
It wasn't an internship you dumb shitter and in terms of flat ease it's literally pressing a fucking button fifteen times how much easier can it get?

>If they didn't want to see how the experiment played out they wouldn't have continued to participate. They just needed somebody else to accept responsibility for their actions.
Nice proof that flies in face of reality.