Isn't the whole point of this setting, that humanity stopped

No, the whole point of the setting is that it's grimdark as fuck. Lack of research and innovation is just a part of it.

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>>53380158
Step aside, grimfag. WH40k is nobledark now.

>Where is all this new shit in 40k always coming from?

The High Lords of Terra AKA GW investors.

>>53380158

No, that wasn't the point. The point was the universe had fucked mankind over so hard it was actually pretty funny. I sat down and explained everything to a buddy of mine who wasn't in the know and his response was simply to laugh. Innovation never stopped per see, the idea that they are all pants on head retarded is a meme, it just wasn't a priority and because it was dangerous it was forbidden to those who didn't have the chops for it. If you weren't an archmagos your job was to fix shit, find shit, and follow the blueprints for shit that was understood. Only archmagos had the qualifications and go ahead to actually innovate, and Caul went and innovated us up Space marines 2.0

>>53380158
>So where is all this new shit in 40k always coming from?

New stuff is usually just retconned in as having been there all along.
The newest new stuff is the work of is the work of Belisarius Cawl, an ancient tech priest from a more enlightened age. Now his Master Guilliman has returned and asked him to open up his workshop where he's been fiddling with things for the ten thousand years.

>>53380158
>So where is all this new shit in 40k always coming from?
the past
these dudes took 10k to make using technology from 30k mostly

>>53380158

Higher ranked mechanicus magi can still invent shit

Here's a question. We know cawl spent 10k years developing the primaris. We also know that every cannon attempt to improve or alter Geneseed prior to this new release went horribly wrong from crazy mutations and inviable monsters to guys the universe just plain hated. My question Is how many fuck ups do you think there were during the ten thousand years it took him to get this right?

>>53381057

Corax actually succeeded in making superior space marines, there's precedent,

>>53380895
There was also that guy who strapped a titan gun to a baneblade in the field

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>>53380158
Times change I guess.

Corax didn't make SUPERIOR space marines, he just found a way to replenish his genestock.

>>53381121
>>53381201
IIRC they were faster to make than normal space marines. So you could argue they were superior. At least until warp fuckery happened.

>>53380158
The "new shit" is actually old shit that just got dug up, because shit from way back is better than the current shit. Hell, isn't the story on the Primaris Marines that the Adeptus Biologis had them ready to go 10,000 years ago, but was sitting on them this whole time because Guilliman never gave the order to deploy them?

>>53381057
>yfw all those previous attempts were just Cawl's failures

>>53381251
It was Cawl who made them but yeah

He's been working on them and their equipment for 10000 years

Their armor is Mark X, which means he's been updating it all this time and there are literally one or two marks that never even made it to regular space Marines since mk8 was the newest hotness not long ago

He also built a brand new gun and went through and entire itineration, as the new bolt rifle is v2

He never shared or trickled down any of this. And this is the fundamental problem with the admech. Privacy autism.

>>53381375
It's possible.

>>53380158
No, they're just incredibly cautious with research because daemons hate new things and love breaking them.

>>53381201
They were superior, he cucked himself though because he didnt use his own genes but the pure unaltered Primarch gene before the Emperor started tweaking the genes to make their individual traits. So since it was the base genes they were probably more Lion's sons since he had the most vanilla genes and Corax raised them like a cuck

>>53380158
the whole point of the setting is to be as macho as possible, to have people in giant suits of armor waving chainsaws and shooting giant guns at other giant ass scary creatures

grimdark, or even anything resembling a plot, may or may not be taken seriously, but its mostly just an excuse to have more of your favorite sci-fi tropes cranked up to 11 and blowing stuff up

>>53381731
The whole point of the setting is to prepare humanity for the coming of the Emperor

>>53380158
30 years of grimdark gets old eventually, especially when you want shekels

>>53381057
>>53381375
>previous attempts were Cawl's failures
>tfw we find out that all of Fabius' 'super-marines' were stolen from Cawl
>tfw the level of REEEEE-ing there would be from Chaosfags

>>53380202
>Step aside, grimfag. WH40k is nobledark now.
Fucking finally, too much grimdark was because of people being fucking retards. Seriously, fuck whoever was writing fluff for Skitarii.

>>53382076
What's wrong with Skitarii?

>>53380158
No the Imperium had ground down in 10,000 years of ignorance and bureaucracy. The Faith was a symptom not a cause. The changes are because shit has gone to hell and a 10,000 year old demi-god now walks among them.

>>53380158
>So where is all this new shit in 40k always coming from?

GW has to churn out new minis for nerds to buy to keep making money. We are just getting a few more things that are 'new' new, instead of being "here all along I just forgot to mention them in the past 40 years" new.

Call it a mismatch between setting and tabletop if you have to. Its hardly the first time.

profit > lore

>>53382091

Not that guy, but as a skitarii player I can think of at least one piece of lore from our book that's absolutely retarded, the lore for the ironstriders.

>>53381864

All hail Sheev.

>>53380158

Innovation is more along the lines of "look! I have discovered a tech from the Dark Age of Technology. " Most of the time. Other times they scavenge xeno tech and proclaim it was human to begin with.

>>53383052
Yeah, gimpsuit striders are weird.

>>53383442

Naw, using human bits to make things run is standard. It's the engine and what happened to their creator that's ridiculous.

>>53381251
>but was sitting on them this whole time because Guilliman never gave the order to deploy them?
Which is insane because the 21st founding happened and there's been a number of reigemes that would have 100% released them.

>>53381375
Would make more sense, but still goes against a central part of the setting's ethos.

>>53380349
Reminder that the men of iron are a thing and skynet terminators basically happened

>>53383846

Yeah I know, it was part of my explanation to my buddy. With sufficient context everything they do actually makes sense, but then you stop laughing at the characters and you start laughing at the context.

>>53380213
God dammit I didn't make that connection
I'm stunned

>>53381430

I'm sure a few marks made their way into the Alpha Legion, and perhaps a few to the Deathwatch. Primaris dudes will probably find their way to the Deathwatch soon enough as it is.

>>53381430
>>53384224

Mk VII was the newest standard issue mark starting with the Siege of Terra. Mk VIII was probably greenlit during the Scouring, but the post-Heresy era basically had the Astartes winding down. Upgrading Astartes gear became not only costly but pointless in the new era of galactic peacekeeping. This is why MK VIII never really proliferated, and why only the Inquisition funds its production in significant but limited quantities.

MK IX should be considered a prototype armor - the very best of the very best. This is why Guilliman wears it, and why its so disproportionate in size. MK X is effectively the mass production version of the MK IX, and will probably be standardized by the end of M42.

>>53380202
>nobledark
This is the best kind of setting

>>53384380
>>53381430

And the reason why Cawl held it back is exactly because he was there from the Great Crusade era onwards; so he knows how godawful the bureaucracy became. Best case scenario, the High Lords approve it only to distribute the new equipment to their pet chapters ala Minotaurs except by the dozens; and the equipment eventually falls into the hands of the traitors. Worst case scenario, Cawl gets burned alive by bureaucrats.

Look at the fractured 10k year history of the Imperium, with major conflicts sparked by political power struggles. Cawl was right to hoard the technology, because it would have been horribly misused. His works are not for the joy of mortal men, but for his eternal love for the Omnissiah and His chosen.

>>53380158
The point of the setting is to make GW money.

>>53384380
>MK IX should be considered a prototype armor
>This is why Guilliman wears it

Is this official?

>MK X is effectively the mass production version of the MK IX

Don't prototypes have provisional designations, which get canonized once they become production models. The MkVI was known as a MkV when it was being tested, but the suit we got to know as MkV got into production before it, so it was bumped up to MkVI for the production model.

>will probably be standardized by the end of M42.

Dunno. That would require redesigning it to suit regular Marines. I think they might remain Primaris only suits, since it's not like Primaris can make use of MkI-VIII suits due to their size.

>>53385306
>>MK IX should be considered a prototype armor
>>This is why Guilliman wears it
>Is this official?

Not at all

>>53380158
>So where is all this new shit in 40k always coming from?
You see GW's gaping, cavernous asshole? That's where thye get the ideas that ignore the fluff

>>53380158
I for once welcome our new, heroic period for 40k. There's only so much you can do with a setting before you have to write "and then all was poop".

>>53380158
It wasn't that new knowledge was evil - it was that keeping an open mind was like holding up a beacon for Chaos. Innovation, whether it be in tech or tactica, was not in and of itself bad.

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>>53380158
This whole revival of Guilliman is just making me hate Smurfs more, I mean they were bad before now they are just entering gary stu territory

>>53381251

I would not be surprised if everything related to the Primaris is old and has merely been collecting dust because Guilliman entrusted Cawl with the responsibility and he was either too concerned with his other projects and/or didn't trust anyone but Guilliman enough to give to go ahead.

People have to remember that the Mechanicus keeps a lot of the best shit to itself for one reason or another.

>>53383640

It's debatable how much control the High Lords have over the Mechanicus, it's sometimes referred to as being a separate entity from the rest of the Imperium.

The Mechanicus has a stranglehold on the technology of the Imperium, push them too far and they'll freak out and suddenly the entire war machine of the Imperium grinds to a halt.

>>53385840

Other than possibly the Mechanicus having a stranglehold on technology, GW has always played fast and loose with how they go about either creating new things, innovating, or studying xenos technology.

Just because Space Marines got some new shit doesn't mean anything. The Mechanicus still have the aforementioned stranglehold and Cawl's actions could give birth to a schism. The majority of humanity is also still ignorant to how technology works outside of rote memorization.

>>53386520
They pulled an Archmagos from the time of the Emperor out their butts. Can you really not see how bullshit that is?

>>53382076
The Temepstus Scions' codex was even worse. Completely retarded grim dark imperium losses while still finding a way to suck the Tau's dick in an Imperium faction supplement.

>>53380158
>isn't the whole point of this setting to be the way it was before it changed

The whole point of change is change.

Now if you're asking what's the point of the change, the answer is money.

>>53386785

It's not unfeasible since there is no cap on how long a Magos can live, it's not even that much worse than suddenly finding an old STC, having access to vehicles or equipment from the Great Crusade, or acting like the newest model kit always existed.

Yes it's somewhat jarring as far as the lore goes, but it's the price that needs to be paid to keep the money flowing in.

Seriously, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot more they can do with the current SM range that isn't just making a plastic version of FW models as long as the Mechanicus still having a stranglehold on technology is a thing in the lore. I mean even FW for the most part seems to either be producing Chapter exclusive stuff (Because of the HH), older power armor marks, variations on the Rhino chassis, or taking the Rhino or Land Raider chassis and sticking new guns on it.

Part of the thing with the Primaris Marines seems to be an attempt to not rock the boat too bad by not suddenly invalidating people's armies or making them feel like they have to buy the newest thing and by basically making every new model released so far look like it's just new power armor. The Inceptors are probably the most radical looking of what has been shown so far and that is mostly because they have landing gear on their feet. Their jump packs don't look all that different from some of the models FW has produced and even the Blood Angels Chaplain GW put out.

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>>53380895
>invent

>>53387427

Tau may have stolen plasma technology from the Imperium.

>>53380202
>WH40k is nobledark now.
You mean Noblebright

>>53387468
Hardly

>>53380158

GW doesn't care about making an interesting setting. There's easy money in hawking DA BEST OF DA BEST OF DA BEST OF DA BEST TIMES INFINITY.

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>>53380349

It outright states Ad Mech have long lost the ability to truly innovate. You've completely missed the point.

>>53380158
That's the Law for the common man.
An Arch-Magos can do whatever the fuck he wants.

>>53380158
>So where is all this new shit in 40k always coming from?
the need to generate sales of plastic minis

>>53380202
>girlyman
>noble, not grim
ok

>>53380158
>Isn't the whole point of this setting, that humanity stopped research and innovation because it goes against their faith and faith is the law?
They never stopped, it just has to be handled really fucking carefully because daemons and shit.

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>>53386785
A completely sane Archmagos from the Heresy whom nobody had ever even heard of before despite the fact that they apparently had the knowledge, manufacturing base, political support and logistical support to make huge innovations in the fields of gene-manipulation, armour manufacturing and weaponry technology AND have all these things lying around in sufficient numbers to roll out in one go.

>>53387266
>It's not unfeasible since there is no cap on how long a Magos can live
The Magi who have access to the very best technology in the Imperium can live for a very long time, but once they get into the thousands they are always completely, hopelessly insane in one way or another. Its one of the reasons the Mechanicum is the way it is - the people at the bottom don't have the knowledge to make a difference, the people in the middle don't have the power and the people at the top are bonkers.

>>53387975
It's okay, he's super forgetful!

Also, pre-order announcement is up on the Warhammer community site. Lulz at the marines with service studs

>>53383525
Been away from 40k for a while. Can you please explain the engine and creator parts?

>>53388195
Don't remember any bits on the creator, but according to the fluff, the ironstrider engine is a perfect perpetual motion machine.

Okay, sure sci-fi. Nope, this is 40k! Since it would be tech heresy to try and change it to better purposes, they just have the things run on giant treadmills to power shit.

That's right, the Mechanicus developed perpetual motion and put it in a hamster wheel

>>53380444
You'd think there'd be a periodic check by other archmagos, even if it was just poking their head through the door and checking for EXTRA DOUBLE HERESY.

>>53382053
I think Chaosfags are used to getting shat on by now. Just like everyone who isn't the loyalist spehss mahreens.

>>53388269
IIRC after executing the creator for Heresy the Mechanicus was afraid to turn the Ironstriders off in case they couldn't start them up again. The solution was to turn their stables into Treadmills and make a bit of free energy on the side.

>>53388269
>>53388384

Well at least they made profit out of a moderately uncomfortable situation.

>>53388305
>Chaosfags getting shat on
>when the setting's background has literally been rewritten to help them win on multiple occasions
Pick one.

>>53388439

Chaosfags have a worse victim complex then bronies.

>>53388030
>Lulz at the marines with service studs

Why? Primaris Marines have been equally created from new recruits and existing marines.

>>53387767

It's possible, the plasma cannon has the flask on the bottom.

>>53387975

Both the HH and FW have introduced a bunch of characters who were apparently big shots and yet have never been heard of before. It's also feasible that Cawl didn't become important until the Heresy or later. Bjorn is a big name in 40k, but he didn't really make an impact until the Scouring.

Cawl has also had around 10,000 years to get everything stockpiled.

All old tech priests being crazy would have to be repeated at least a few time. If it's just something that appears in a box once it can easily be hand waved.

>>53387975
Cawl is easily the single greatest human ever behind the Emperor to have pulled this off.

Without anyone ever noticing he built, trained and armed a freaking whole new army capable of saving the entire Imperium and literally no-one ever noticed it at all.

Cawl is the fucking Emperor is the only way I'll buy any of this.

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>Optimus Prime marines become the new normal marines
>previous marines get rehashed as Squats

>>53388774

Or maybe no one seriously bothered to look or he had some kind of document from Guilliman.

It's kind of funny the lore can say that all kinds of shit gets lost under the weight of Imperial bureaucracy, yet expect something on Mars of all places and under the oversight of a high ranking magos to be easily sniffed out.

>>53389086
Yeah cause the stuff that was lost was not literally an ongoing process creating an entire galaxy-saving force of Super-super Marines by one Magos.

The Emperor ordering info on Two Legions to be expunged involved the Emperor and the entire fucking Imperium, this is one random Archmagos keeping secret the most poweerful army in Imperium history from everyone.

Cawl ain't even fucking dictator of Mars so he somehow kept how he was training these men and all the resources for their armour, guns and ships secret from every other archmagos too.

This is a totally different fucking level. And if he had a letter from Guilliman that's fine but then people would Still fucking know about it.

>>53387266
Give me lore.

Give me reasons for Cawl's action. Give me the reaction of other marines to what he had done. Give me a civil war, give me genetic racism, give me Chapters disapproval, give me the taint of corruption on those design, give me depth.

And I'll eat your new super mega marines ultra deluxe.

Don't give me a half baked explanation of 'that faggot was like hidden and he did it with that Primarch lelelel'.

>>53389765
>>53389115
Honestly if Cawl had done this at the ass end of the galaxy I could believe it, but somehow doing this on mars/terra?

There was probably an entire branch of the inquisition and an assassin temple dedicated to keeping this secret, full time

>>53389848
Most of Mars is an uninhabited shit hole.
All Cawl would need to do is carve out a domicile and slowly work on shit over thousands of years if he was intent on keeping it a secret.

>>53380158
The mechanicus kept developing new technology all this time but they NEVER share it sans a few rare cases, they are the only forgeworld that can make the original baneblades and they have the blueprints which they could share so that other forgeworlds don't produce downgraded versions but they won't for a reason or the other, they also have super weapons that only use in dire times like that thing that shoots black holes that they used against the "unnamed threath" that came from beyond the known galaxy.

>>53387767
I agree, both stole their plasma stuff from the Eldar.

>>53380158
Turns out entropy is a bad business model and people want new stuff.

>>53387427
>>53387468
Tau plasma weapons are, IIRC, canonically lower yield.

Eldar are the only ones to perfect it

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>>53380349
You're the one who has missed the point, mate.

The whole point of the Imperium is indeed that its retarded governance and ideals have led to 10,000 years of utter stagnation and abject suffering for mankind. Innovation has never been genuinely bad in 40K, the AdMech are just a retarded cargo cult.

Even Bobby G agrees. Seriously nigga this guy is spelling it out for the audience that the Imperium is dum dum retarded and is mostly this way due to its own fuckups.

>>53380202
Great! I knew /tg/ would finally like the tau!

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>>53390016
honestly the skitarii have the closest thing to the new plasma gun in the Plasma Cavalier, which makes sense if the Primarius Marines are basically admech ourfitted marines.

Nobody freaked out when the skitarii came out with tons of new weapons, the admech have been making new weapons for ages. The only thing that is _actually_ heresy for mars is making AI. They dont give two fucks about standard commissar / Inquisition level heresy shit.

Fuck they worship that necron fuck in mars as much as they worship the emperor

>>53380202
Good. The grimdark is old and boring now. It's time to look forward to a period of denial and even more infantile escapism.

>>53380349
Is this the new lore now? R E T C O N

>>53390205
Lore has always been the same, nobody but mars could create new stuff or it would've been heretical, mars did create new stuff but they always kept it super secret almost never sharing with anyone else, why do you think they have hyper advanced spaceships while the imperial navy has to manually load each round.

The grimdarkness of the mechanicum resides in their corrupted faith in the void dragon that made them go "mad".

>>53388290
Cawl is the archmagos of mars. He's at the very top of the food chain. Even lower-level magos dominae are allowed to tinker and refine stcs, Cawl can do whatever the fuck he wants to. It's always been the case with the lore, the only thing added recently was that the same guy has been archmagos of mars for the entire long war, and that he's actually been getting shit done in that time.

>>53385306
>will probably be standardized by the end of M42.
>Dunno. That would require redesigning it to suit regular Marines. I think they might remain Primaris only suits, since it's not like Primaris can make use of MkI-VIII suits due to their size.

You're forgetting that GW said in their Q&A that normal Marines could be upgraded to Primaris Marines. More than likely Primaris will be standardised by the end of M42, both in the fluff and on tabletop/collections.

>>53390445
And he was left alone by Goge Vandire AND Sebastian Thor, and he in turn let the 21st Founding happen, despite it being in his wheelhouse.

>>53390062
This, although having someone pointing it out in setting is missing the whole point and tone of the setting.

“The fact that the Space Marines were lauded as heroes within Games Workshop always amused me, because they’re brutal, but they’re also completely self-deceiving. The whole idea of the Emperor is that you don’t know whether he’s alive or dead. The whole Imperium might be running on superstition. There’s no guarantee that the Emperor is anything other than a corpse with a residual mental ability to direct spacecraft.

“It’s got some parallels with religious beliefs and principles, and I think a lot of that got missed and overwritten.” -Rick Priestley

>>53390445
Well, he's AN archmagos of Mars. There's a few thousand at least, and he's not the Fabricator General or we'd have heard about it. Makes you wonder what would happen if they all went to war at once, given your average one from the Heresy is as tough as a Nurgle Lord and packing a S6 AP3 pistol and Power Axe at LEAST. They each have thousands of troops minimum and often an Ordinatus Minoris or Titan Legion/Knight House friend, and that's just the stuff they have on the tabletop.

It would be like a massive superhero crossover teamup, except with more grimdark, but with equal quantities of massively varied and deadly bullshit.

>>53391301
Maybe he used the 21st founding as a test to see if what he had done so far would work at the time.

>>53380158
>>53380202
Honestly, Nobledark must be the best setting for WH40k. Give people a slim bit of hope and chaos/death/eternal damnation becomes all the more horrible for kids who can't deal with permanent meaningless death.

>>53390403
>Lore has always been the same, nobody but mars could create new stuff or it would've been heretical, mars did create new stuff but they always kept it super secret almost never sharing with anyone else,
>they always keep it super secret almost never sharing with anyone else
Seriously, the only way the Imperium seems to ever get the Mechanicus to share their knowledge is at gunpoint. Mars was perfectly willing to let Terra get overrun by the Beast's Orks when the Ork Attack Moon showed up on Terra, because they were busy trying to figure out how to reverse-engineer Ork tellyporta tech so they could, I shit you not, teleport Mars out of the system so it would be out of harm's way while the Orks invaded Terra.

That's pretty grimdark if you ask me.

>>53391761
Well, back in the day there were reasonable people like the Sensei who stood as a point of comparison to the Imperium and a counterpoint against it.

I guess GW got tired of people misunderstanding the core elements of the setting and had Captain Reasonable return to tell off all the 'Imperium did nothing wrong' fags.

>>53391860
Possible. Explain how the Arch-Magos of Mars didn't get any turbulence under Goge now?

>>53391955
Sensei were ditched while Rick was still doing 40k. Rick's been pretty clear that GW don't get 40k very well either on a number of occasions.

>>53391291
That doesn't debunk what I said one bit. None of that changes the MkX to be usable by non-Primaris SM nor makes non-MkX usable by Primaris SM.

>>53380158
They find old texts, machines in the ruins i guess and fix, mod them

>>53380202
What is nobledark?

>>53388290
By who? He's the Archmagos of Mars. The only guy who has any possibility of having authority over him would be the Fabricator General of the Mechanicus, and he's probably only 2 or 3 thousand years old at best. Cawl is 10 thousand years old. Him being given an order from the Fabricator General would be like Bjorn being given an order from Grimnar. Technically, he should follow it, but there's really nobody who would stop him if he said no.

Yes, it appears the current authors and designers are big fans of their heroes in 40k but don’t actually understand the important points and meanings of the setting.

They’s have done better if Guilliman were on the hopeless ‘dark imperium’ side of the riff by some accident. He would have been the light in the darkness there instead of a bright and glory unnecessity on the terran side.

>>53393571
Dark Imperium is going to get Sangunius.

>>53392725
Shit are fucked, but we're trying.

>>53392725
Nothing, it's a meaningless term created as part of a shitty D&D style alignment chart playing off of grimdark.

>>53386441
>entering
you must be new here. Ultramarines have been sues for ages now.

>>53393603

Which would ruin the worth of his sacrifice if it’s actually him coming back (not sure yet).
And Gulliman will keep ruining the grimdark setting in the terran imperium.

>>53393712
I honsetly think its a bit refreshing. I can only suspend my disbelief for so long when it comes to some grimdark turning into grimderp. You can do grimdark properly while having technology advancing who says you can't?

>>53392725
The world is doomed, hope seems lost but goddamn if it's not worth fighting anyway.

Opposed to Grimdark where everything is doomed, hope is lost but you carry on anyway because the only other option is to curl up and die.

Really you're fucked with either but noble dark has people hold on to their principles in spite of the darkness while grimdark has you wallow in the mud, crawling on your belly just to hold on to the last few disparate gasps of air before the darkness finally chokes you to death.

>>53393746

You could stop at Mk-X armour without ubermarines.
You could have a political conflict between Guilliman and the Lords of Terra.
There are plenty of ways for some kind of progress without changing the entire setting into bright and glory.

>>53393853
No one cares about that, though. Most people care more about the tabletop and hobby than the fluff integrity.

"Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim darkness of the far future there is only war. There is no peace among the stars, only an eternity of carnage, slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods."

>Golly gee guys! I just love how much 40k is advancing in science and knowledge, it's so cool! Really fits the setting!
>Wait, grimdark? Everything sucks? No, that's stupid, Stormca- I mean, Primaris Marines will save the Galaxy from evil!

john blanche is crying right now

>>53380158
Welcome to Games Workshop. They retcon everything all the time and the lore doesn't have any solid canon. If you read something 5 years ago it probably didn't happen in the contemporary lore.

>>53380202
THIS.

>>53387470
Nope. The situation is still shit, it still has a lot of bad things happening and overall it still is mostly dark.

Noblebright is like D&D Saturday Morning Cartoon, where as in a Nobledark setting the situation is shit, but the heroes can still do something to at least lessen the grimness, they can still achieve something and, what is most important, there is still hope as not everything is lost. The heroes can actually achieve their goals and it won't end badly (mostly). Yet it will be met with a terribly high price to pay. A price in lives so that the heroes can change something for the better or at least achieve happiness.

That's Nobledark.

>>53393887

Wouldn’t hurt to not ruin it then.
For TT means there still would be Guilliman, true-scale marines and whatever you wish for.

>>53394189
People complain if they don't do anything new in the setting and most people apparently have shit taste when it comes to the fluff.

>>53380158
No actually.

>>53391761

>There’s no guarantee that the Emperor is anything other than a corpse with a residual mental ability to direct spacecraft.

That doesn't make any sense. How could the emperor be completely brain dead, as well utterly destroyed in a physiological sense, and still be able to use his psychic abilities? Unless he's saying that the Emperor is essentially in a coma, but then again doesn't everybody in the setting already know that?

>>53380158
No. The technological research is in the hands of the Adeptus Mechanicus that are trying their best, but they are mostly not very good at their job. So progress is slow and hard to notice in such a large governmental entity such as the Imperium.

>>53393853
I think it would be interesting if Robby G came into conflict with the more trigger happy Inquisitors, but eventually comes to the grim realization that the Inquisition's work has kept the Imperium alive despite its high cost.

>>53381240
>>53381201

They were faster, stronger, quicker to train than regular space marines.

It makes me wonder how the Raptors would compare to the Primaris marines.

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>>53390198
I see you're the type who enjoys mature games for mature gamers.

A tip of the fedora to you, my good man.

>>53387975
Laying low is the most sensible thing to do in the 40kek setting, Cawl wouldn't want unwanted attention.

>>53392725
Shits fucked, but people are still fighting and trying and there is a smaller glimmer of hope.
Think Darkest Dungeon
You can get out of the shitty situation you are in

You just might have to crawl of the bones of the dead to do it.

>>53392725
Nobledark is where everything seems bad but there are good people out there who are doing their best, and despite all the misery and suffering, goodness wins out at the end of the day.

Lord of the Rings is the example I've heard touted as quintessential Nobledark. Yes the forces of darkness seem like they have the upper hand all the time, but a group of heroes with the right stuff manage to carry on despite it all and save the world.

>>53395010
>Think Darkest Dungeon

Uninstall 40k after realizing it's a pointlessly drawn out hamsterwheel?

>>53395181
That's life.

>>53380158
All primaris come from ultramarines geneseed? Or they used all the loyalists legions

>>53396643
>All primaris come from ultramarines geneseed?

No.

>>53380158
The shareholders

>Advance the storyline!
>Stop changing shit!

They just can't win with you cunts, can they?

>>53388269
40k/10

>>53396643
Nope.

The enhanced geneseed is a chimaeric one made out of geneseeds of ALL loyalist Space Marine Legions.

>>53394168
Has there ever been a setting that is grimbright? What would it be like?

>>53397877

Presumably Grimbright would be something like a Batman comic, where the heroes act like assholes but nothing is actually going that badly at all.

>>53381172
>by the will of the gods
What? How does that work?

>>53387820
Ye but cawl is an old ass magos from a better time.

If I'm not mistaken, the Primaris Marines were actually originally Guilliman's personal project that he was working on to reinforce the loyalist armies during the Horus Heresy, but never had a chance to complete before he got shanked in the ass by Fulgrim afterwards. Cawl was adjunct to the project and kept the ball rolling on it for the next 10,000 years until Big Bobby G could be revived and give him the order to crack open the vaults.

I figured the Primaris were mostly done by the end of the Horus Heresy, & just needed the edges knocked off. The rest of the mostly 10k years were spent making bitchin' arms & armor.

>>53394532
what are the golden throne and psyker sacrifices for...

>>53380158

>that humanity stopped research and innovation because it goes against their faith and faith is the law?

It never stopped, it was just viewed as heretical outside of the Adeptus Mechanicus.

>>53381201
What novel or book is this in?
I'd like to read more on these Raptors.

>>53382076
>>53383052
Well too be fair its the fucking priesthood of technology.

They're not meant to be the "UGGGGH I'M SO SMART I HAVE AN SOCIAL ENGINEERING DEGREE CUMMMMMMING!" appeal.

>>53386520
Like GV gave any fucks. He already created a schism large enough that Thor came a-knocking.

>>53400520
For doing exactly what canon indicates they are for? A greater psychic presence is still required to direct the thing.

>>53393746
"Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise progress and understanding, for there is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods."

>>53380158
>There are hundreds, if not thousands, of STCs scattered throughout the galaxy
>The Tech-priests of Mars scour whole systems looking for them
>Each holds a precious memory-fragment left by the Omnissiah as a reward for ceaseless toil in the name of the machine spirit
>If you don't know what an STC is you're a newfag and should autopwn

>>53397009
It's almost like 40k has multiple fans with different opinions! And most of them didn't want "Advance the lore, but do it really poorly. Make it look real amateur."

>>53396811
Underrated post.

>>53381172
Holy shit that edge. I can't believe I thought that shit was cool when I was a teenager.

>>53389765
>Give me reasons for Cawl's action. Give me the reaction of other marines to what he had done. Give me a civil war, give me genetic racism, give me Chapters disapproval, give me the taint of corruption on those design, give me depth.

The fucking wait son. If its going to be anywhere it'll be in 8th. Why the fuck do people expect all this lore when all we have are preview articles so far, one of which happens to mention the fact that there are chapters that hate the primaris.

>>53387820
As a whole, yes.
That doesn't stop individuals and enclaves from independently achieving things.

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>>53380158
No you fucking moron, the point of the setting according to its creator is "Paradise Lost meets Judge Dredd".

>>53380202
This seems to be the case now. Guilliman is a legitimately good/competent leader trying his best to save humanity out of altruism and virtue.

>>53380158
Its not new stuff, its old stuff from before the heresy and subsequent decline of humanity

>>53402542
>Guilliman is a relic from past times trying to salvage the tattered, rotten ruins of his father's empire that he already died trying to save already from a threat that literally is unending
If anything, the incredible scale of what he is trying to do makes it more grimdark, because someone who reasonably could do this thousands of years ago really can't now.
They already showed that he is not the warrior he used to be, or at the very least, that the daemon primarches really are greater than their mortal incarnations in power.

>>53384435

>Cawl was right to hoard the technology, because it would have been horribly misused.

Wait... Are you telling me that, in at least one singular case, the AdMech wasn't being stupidly grimdark by hoarding technology and knowledge, and that in this instance it was actually justified?

>>53402512
Rick seems to think it's more than that. Did you even read the opening on the inside of the Rogue Trader cover?

>>53391889
This. If there's no hope, there's no point in trying. If there's any hope at all, then there's always a reason to go through it, no matter how grueling or horrifying.

>>53386441

Kairos Fateweaver actually taunts Guilliman by suggesting he's the Emperor's least remarkable son.

Personally, if they played up the "Ceasar/Roman" theme they have going of Guilliman as a statesman, he'd be more interesting. Rather than having him just kind of fill in for the role of "dude who heads vanilla marines" he'd make his own warriors distinctive.

Honestly, if more Primarchs get revived, it'd be a great way to introduce contrast. Instead of Guilliman's way being the absolute best way all the time, you could contrast the other Primarch's differing methods and techniques to really play up their differences.

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>>53394149
Couldn't help myself. Had to generate this

>>53401448
That's a quote directly from Vulkan, though. That's his opinion of his universe, not necessarily objective fact.

>>53402789
It's been the opening to the rulebook since before Vulcan's existence.

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>>53402751
Approved.

>>53380158
personally, I think that its Ward's fault.

its like he doesn't understand the parody aspect of the background when he tries to add to it.

>>53400707
Deliverance Lost

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>>53393906
John Blanche helped make stormcast.

The point of the setting is to make money

>>53391761

This might have been on point for the Imperium of Man as it was imagined in the Rogue Trader days but it becomes a bit nonsensical as early as the second edition.

When you have genuine gods of evil sending armies of genuine demons into the world any kind of subtle religious commentary has gone out the window. The notion a corpse on a throne powered by human sacrifice is the protector of mankind begins to seem reasonable. And the Imperium as a whole just stops seeming that unreasonable when horrific mind/body/soul raping monsters are trying to claw into reality.

The Inquisition War clearly wasn't on message, since the Emperor is shown to be very much alive and very much working to defend humanity from the throne.

>>53380158
STC fragments, Mechanicus going through ruins and uncovering archeotech, modifying some existing tech (although this is always preceded, accompanied and followed by heated religious debates between tech priests).

>>53382076

Amen.

You need to set em up before you knock em down.

Back in 3rd edition when the Imperium was on the ropes against the C'tan and Oldcrons (remember when the Necron Destroyer had a titan class weapon according to the Fluff that could blast clean through a land raider? With weapons like that what was the heavy destroyer even for!), the Tyranids, Chaos and the newly rising Tau and when it wasn't entirely clear if even Terminator armour could be manufactured, there was definitely threat fatigue. It was starting to seem like the Imperium was going to be little more than a speed bump for these unstoppable baddies.

GW has been walking back from that since then and returning the spotlight to the Imperium and Chaos.

By building the Imperium up with the Primaris marines and Guillliman it sells new models, and it also sets the Imperium up for more major defeats.

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>>53393906
But Cawl's Primaris homework was assigned 10,000 years ago before the science and technology was forgotten and lost.

You like how GW made their way around that limitation?

Next they'll be sharing technology with their new Ynnari allies.

>>53403813
I'm not going to say you are wrong at all, or that I disagree with you, but

The Emperor could very well be dead & the thousand psykers could be what it takes to keep the lights on, independent from it being the Emperor. He was powerful enough to light it & not die while everyone else is bound to burn out. Any other spiritual stuff could easily be a minor Warp entity that operates on the beliefs of the Imperiam

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>>53380158

Because that was the main selling point of the setting and people in charge failed to see it.
Now they are trying to be like the other settings and in doing so doomed themselves.
Because they lost their uniqueness.

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>>53382053
>thinking anyone in Chaos cares about Fabius' super-marines
>even Emp's Children don't care about Fabius' super-marines
Are you retarded?

>>53388448
No that's just Word Bearers.
Word Bearers are to Chaos as Ultra Smurfs are to Loyalists, useless and annoying.

>>53397877
I hear that grimbright is actually what modern humanity is. You see shit going on on the news constantly and things always appear to be boiling up, but stastically human civilization has been advancing and the average qol of people gettting bigger, something like that. Don't exactly remember what that post said but that was the gist of it.

I love how Cawl spent all that fucking time making new marines and shit.

Imagine if instead he had focussed on a cheaper and easier way to produce better equipment and weapons for the guard, like arming each guy with carapace and hellguns. That would have been a massively more productive use of time.

>>53403500
And it's kind of very different from release version

>>53397831
Hooray! You're ultimate warriors are now more genetically unstable than anyone else!

Good fucking job! One wrong sneeze and they'll all turn into vampiric, brick red digganobs!

>>53401637
Which chapters are we talking about though?

I can see the Wolves, the Lions and Blood Angels being opposed to it.

But I'm not sure on the others.

>Ctrl+F point
>27 results

Can't we all agree that there is no singular "point" of the 40k setting? It's a big setting with diverse themes so collectors and story writers can focus on whatever parts they find interesting.

>>53405199
I can totally agree with that. The problem is that the writers are trying to make it a single narrative with a point which is fucking gay.

I just don't like the Primaris marines because it seems like fluff power creep... first space marines became the default troop of the game, now we've got primaris marines? Isn't that going to make every other character who *isn't* a primaris marine inferior, by default? It's like how grey knights were marines BUT BETTER so people could feel like their marines were the bestest, and now we've Primaris marines which are even better?

>>53405438
As long as Primaris Marines stay more expensive pointswise than regular Marines then it should be fine

>>53402751
Very nice.

>>53404145
This. Chaos Space Marines already gets super Marines through the power of Chaos. Science is not necessary.

>>53403813
It's still valid. I mean, obviously it puts the Space IoM would be the villains in any other setting, and would probably still be the bad guys in a setting full of other setting's bad guys.

Similarly, the Emperor is plausible in that setting, but so is the corpse-lighthouse theory.

>>53405199
There's not a singular point, but if you can't manage to hit any of the themes or reasons to set something in the 40k setting rather than in a generic scifi setting then it probably doesn't belong in the 40k setting.

>>53387023
What did it say?

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>tfw you liked the grimdark setting
>tfw you didn't want the "plot" to move on
>tfw you never asked for this

Because Roboute happened, that's why. Can't wait for the other primarchs to come back and still be overshadowed by his acomplishments.

>>53406770
>not posting adam
You had one fucking job anon, no wonder GW doesnt listen to your useless ass.

Am i the only one to think that 10k years to develop the technology to save Guilliman sounds completely out of scale? I mean, i understand a millennium, but 10? That's so long it's baffling. It sounds more like Belisarius was either not interested or forgot he had to, otherwise why not try to save the Primarch sooner (that sounds like a big priority) and then focus on Primaris and their gear with Guilliman approval?

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>>53406906
Fine... I though that would have been redundant

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>>53380202
Can we at least do that without bedding the elves?

>>53407177
Nope. We will see a canon lovestory with an Eldar Farseer and Primaris Marine within our lifetime.

>>53406940

Maybe Cawl reached points that required him to scrounge up another piece of archeotech and had to spend 500 years hunting it down.

So it could have been done in 1000 years but he needed 9000 more years for getting every little piece and support tech that enables that other piece?

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>>53406940
You're talking about a universe where even the tiniest Chaos sigil on a nano-scale can turn your entire production facility into a fucking gateway to Hell.

Of course it will take ages to innovate.

Do you remember what happened when Samsung rushed the Galaxy 7?

Now imagine if instead of exploding batteries, it was exploding reality eating your face.

>>53407177
That's the best part, you fucking faggot!

>>53407352
As far as I can see, Cawl has the attention span of a meme goldfish and no initiative, which I think caused him to have all ready 5000 years ago but no one told him to actually do it.

>>53405199

There are key themes and points to 40k without which it ceases to be 40k and just becomes a bland, substance-less hodge podge of generic sci fi.

>>53405560

>Is clearly talking about fluff
>replies by talking about points

Fucking READ posts before responding.

>>53404093
>>53405750
Not that anon but you both seem to be making the same mistake in thinking that the psykers sacrificed to the Golden Throne are the same ones who produce the Astronomicon.

When that's actually a separate group entirely. So if the sacrifices to the Golden Throne are not powering that, what are they for?

>>53393768
>grimdark has you wallow in the mud, crawling on your belly just to hold on to the last few disparate gasps of air before the darkness finally chokes you to death.

Thats real life. Nobledark sounds like tumblr cant handle the truth(again) and create safespace to escape(again)

>>53408329
>nobledark is tumblr now
wut?

>>53408300
All I said was that the Emps might be able to be able to power it when dead. Crazier things have happened in the setting. Though I always thought that they powered him and through that they powered the big bright. I might have to reread some fundamentals. Luckily I just repurchased the 3e rulebook.

I'd buy 3 start collecting sets if they actually looked as good as that. These new designers are so arrogant, always trying to change perfection.

>>53408504
The 3e space marine codex has a few nice fluff bits in it too (I got into things at the start of 3e, so I have all that stuff still laying around).

But yeah, the Astronomicon is powered by the a separate group trained for the purpose, while the ones who go to the Golden Throne are (presumably) life support.

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>>53407177
get a load of this faggot

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>>53405041
Dunno. Maybe the geneseeds they were made of were very purified ones?

We don't know and we need more info on them.

Have a Primaris Captain.

>>53404573
When will Guardfags accept that they're just not relevant? Guardsmen could be replaced with sand bags and no one would notice.

>>53403500
This looks more like if Sigmar took a Warrior of Chaos, removed all the mutations and Chaos bits, and replaced the latter with his own bits.

Stormcasts wish they looked like that.

>>53408961
Hey, just like Space Marines now!

>>53409028
How so? We got super space marine 2.
They're more relevant now than ever.

>>53380158
Because people are okay with grimdark when it gives an excuse for the loyalist Space Marines to get more kits so they can indulge their boring power fantasy and LE HERESY BLAM PURGE LE ENEMY nonsense.

Remember how /tg/ did nothing but cry neckbeard tears for over a decade about how the Tau aren't grimdark and that's bad, but as soon as loyalist Space Marines can benefit from "OMG NEWB GRIMDARK ALL THE TIME WAS BORING, I LOVE GULLIMAN NOW!"

>>53408961
Because without the Guard they'd have to move onto killing more SMs to show how 'ard' the Threat of the Week is, and we all know how much Marinefags cry endless salty tears whenever they're shown to take serious losses to make a threat credible (see: War Zone Damocles, Black Templar Redditors during Gathering Storm, Furries in Wrath of Magnus, etc).

>>53380158
New minis make money, what did you expect?

>>53401567
It is cool, just don't take it seriously. Like snowflame.

>>53408944
Regardless of noblederp i fucking love the armor design

>>53408944
>That fat belly

>>53409076
>stealing Primarine thunder to prop yourself up

Come now...

>>53411677
>Primaris Marines aren't Marines!

Uh-huh.
Primaris Marines can even be made from Space Marines, you thought Calgar cucked you before? Wait until you see what Calgar Prime does to your gf.

>>53386441
keep cryin bitch nigger

>>53412148
Well, Space Marines are made from humans, so I guess all the credit Marines get belongs to the Guard.

>>53416228
lol no

>>53416228
I support this notion.
The IG gets all the credit from now on.

>>53380202
Just get Alfa to do the lore. TTS has been more interesting to me lore wise than any 40k book.
Hell in my head cannon TTS is the one true lore.

>>53409597
>and we all know how much Marinefags cry endless salty tears whenever they're shown to take serious losses to make a threat credible (see: War Zone Damocles, Black Templar Redditors during Gathering Storm, Furries in Wrath of Magnus, etc).
I'm sure any fans of the Imperial Fist were positively livid when their entire chapter was eradicated by the Beast's Orks during the Beasts Arises series and had to be rebuilt from successor chapters donating some of their own marines (granted, this was all 8000 years before modern 40k, but the fact it happened at all had to hurt), but I don't think I've ever really run into a die-hard Imperial Fist fan before.

Nobody seems to care much about Dorn's OG guys.

Poor Imperial Fists.

>>53380158
>Isn't the whole point of this setting, that humanity stopped research and innovation because it goes against their faith and faith is the law?
Nah, thats what "MUH GRIMDARK" idiots think.
They want everything to look like a lost cause.
With impossible odds.. that humanity is doomed and have to cling to the last shreads.

Looking at War40k as a whole, its honestly very little grimdark, just most people seem to focus on only the grimdark and then ignore/forget those other bits cause it isn't grimdark enough for them.

I still don't get why people rage over that the story is moving forward.
You really wanna stay in the same ditch 40k had dug itself into? Without anything major happening that isn't just more of the same thats already happend?
Right now we got the Eldar craftworlds united in a super group under a powerful leader, who summoned an Eldar God of Death that made chaos piss itself, same Eldar leader that managed to to make an alliance with the Imperium, healed and woke up Girlyman...
Rowboat Girlyman who then travled to Terra and took control, with the support of most of the other marine chapters and other parts of the imperium.
With all these major story change that opens up to so much progress and new stories.
War40k isn't ending, its taking the next natural step.
Which is making new models and books for people to buy

>>53380202
>Step aside, grimfag. WH40k is nobledark
this.

>>53380158
Yeah hypocrisy has always been a big part of the imperium.

>>53419522
40k is literally where the term grimdark comes from. Grimdark refers to 40k's tone (or at least tone 40k had). Anything else has to represent a major tonal shift, which is inevitably going to alienate many existing fans. Why does this surprise people?

>>53389765
I'm betting that they intend a later retcon to say Primaris Marines were always the real Space Marines.

> Introduce Primaris Marines as a "New Development" in order to avoid invalidating existing models while introducing larger, more detailed models
> Gradually replace current SM models with Primaris models, which happen to more closely match lore descriptions of all SM as giants who tower over mortals
> Declare that Primaris Marines weren't actually new tech after all, but that all SM geneseed had degraded over time and that Primaris Marines are actually the way Marines originally were during the Great Crusade
> Eventually remove all references to the "degraded" marines - all Marines were always like this and the "Primaris" designation is dropped

Anyone think the Gravis Armor is sexy as hell?

>>53408300
>So if the sacrifices to the Golden Throne are not powering that, what are they for?
Sacrifice? I mean, if they think it helps, why not?

>>53422190
Might just be you, bud.

>>53380158
>humanity stopped research and innovation because it goes against their faith and faith is the law


No, not at all.This was never mentioned anywhere, only that a lot of technological progress was lost during the age of strife and that some technologies such as advanced AI and warp powered shit are forbidden by Imperial creed.

>being this contrarian that you start pulling shit from your ass to justify your hate

pathetic

>>53410308
>Bara marines

>>53419768

Because we've got a whole generation of 40k players who cut their teeth on the wank of Draigo's fluff, thinking that that's the kind of shit the setting is all about.

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>>53423057
That's super obvious now you say it. Thanks.

>>53422190
I agree Anon, the whole "potbelly" complaint is absurd in my opinion, because that's far from a potbelly proportionally. Overall, I like it, it and the basic Primaris MK. X armor as well.

>>53423057
Honestly. 40k like any other franchises changes over time to remain relevant. When times gets tough in the real world the entertainment seems to gravitate to a more insipid kind.

>>53418051
Then neither do SM get the credit for Primaris actions.

>>53419522
Nothing wrong with the story moving forward or primarchs returning.
Primaris Marines were just a literal asspull though.

I don't see the problem with Primaris Marines.

>>53391761

The thing with Priestley is that he likes to throw out a lot of red meat for the grognards, yet at the same time can't be bothered to account for why he stayed around for so long or if his creation was supposedly be bastardized why he was impotent to do anything about it when a lot of what GW has reveals that the ideas flow from the sculptors and the Design Studio and at most the accounting department of GW has to give the go ahead on funding.

Really, the closest he has come to explaining something like the above is saying that GW fucked up with foreign language printings of Gorkamorka and that caused the accounting department to shit itself and want to play it safe. However the thing is from Priestley's explanation that only explains why GW stopped making side games for a while, it says nothing about there being limitations imposed on what could be done with the lore of 40k and Fantasy.