If a paladin is faced with a hostage situation where a lich has

No.

>>53248964
No, they're evil.

If it's a setting where orcs are inherently evil, no, and furthermore the lich was pretty dumb to take them hostage.

>>53248964
from somewhere in the Mutant Chronicles 2nd ed book:
when the heretic, holding hostage, threatens to shoot the hostage if not granted a permission to escape, inquisitor is to shoot both the hostage and the heretic

but the Brotherhood is lawflul evil so fuck if I know what the paladin should do

>>53249067
>If it's a setting where orcs are inherently evil
That's all the settings.

Their alignment is evil. It says so in the books. They gotta die.

>>53248964
>paladin
>fireball
?

>>53248964
>a lich has some unambiguously and inherently evil orcs as hostages

That's one dumb lich.

Who the hell uses hostages that the person chasing them was going to kill anyways?

>>53248964
I thought liches had good WIS?

>>53249746
That's clerics. Liches have good INT.

>>53249613
A better term would be "bait" probably.
Imagine just gathering a bunch of the evilest things you can find just to try and attract a paladin.

>>53248964
He doesn't fall even if the Orcs are Good. Allowing the Lich to survive will cost more lives in the long run.

>>53250276
Clerical liches are a thing.

>>53253178
Probably not in this scenario, though.

Being a paladin is about trying your best to do Good. You might still fail or get overwhelmed, but if you gave it your all you won't fall. You might still die though.

If the GM is coming up with contrived situations to try to force the paladin fall, it is a foregone conclusion that they will

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>>53248964

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>>53249225

The paladin falls and the DM gets punched in the face for making a situation where every solution forces the paladin to fall. Player leaves

>>53255735
He's right though.

Ah, the MASTERMIND.

From the good old days, back when shitposting was still called trolling.

>>53258084
He's really not, though. If you're the sort of shithead who screech-cites books, especially the monster manual of all things, then you're probably really goddamn fun to play with. Especially considering nothing in the OP specified D&D , which i can only assume he meant

>>53258299
>nothing in the OP specified D&D
>paladins
>falling

>>53253178
That was just a clerical error.

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>>53255636
Anonymous sounds like the kind of kid who's very close to stealing guns from his uncle /k/ and showing those paladins what for.
Too bad it won't work, though...

>>53253178
>tfw the DM's girlfriend is playing a clerical necromancer and her eventual goal is lichdom

>>53253178
>>53259445
Clerical liches should just be Mummies

>>53255342
Exactly. It's like trying to follow Christianity. Yes you'll sin and make mistakes, but you keep moving forward and making your best attempt. So long as you do not forsake the Light and entirely give up your oath, a matter of personal choice, you are not lost nor forsaken.
You can still be hurt and face some bad situations, but that's why you hold to Faith.

>>53249225
>That's all the settings.
No it's not

>>53259655
But they shouldn't, though.

It's two separate ways of becoming undead.

>>53248964
wouldn't the good thing to do be to kill the lich and show the orcs the way of good and justice?

>>53260420
No, because orcs are evil and can't understand such things.

Also they're hostages. You can't just "kill the lich".

>>53260439
>You can't just "kill the lich".

Sure you can. You just need to stop caring about the hostages.

>>53249053
No. The alignment of the orcs don't matter, what matters is that it is the lich's actions.

>>53248964
>hmmm... Evil smiting evil for me, well that was convenient.

>>53248964
The paladin wouldn't fall if the lich was holding innocent babies hostage

Paladin is only responsible for their actions (stopping evil), not what the lich does

>>53249488
My first reaction, too.

>>53260750
You can kill the lich, but if you just kill it and don't find and destroy its phylactery, it will come back.

>>53250379
>shows up to fight a necromancer
>nope, it's just an ilithid named Chuck Testa

>>53248964
The better question is if the Lich rises.

>>53260789
The action itself may be reprehensible, but he essentially just saved you 20 extra minutes by doing your job for you.

If its only good when you do it, its not good at all.

>>53261847
I could see a Lich dedicating a century or two to solely fight Evil creatures just to test out the hypothesis. Is the goodness of an action in the intention or results? Let's find out the definitive answer!

>>53248964
No. If he takes any hit at all it's because his god likes orcs.

>>53248964
1. How the fuck would he fireball them?

2. I would rule a LG god would call getting rid of a lot of genuinely evil creatures in one fell swoop "efficient".

>>53261997
>>53261971
The Lich fireballs the orcs you dopes. Not the paladin.

>>53262020
So the Lich fireballs the orcs... that the Lich took as hostages. Why, exactly, would the paladin fall?
We are missing vital information, such as specifics as to why the Lich should even bother to kill orcs. Further, why should the paladin - or indeed, his god - even care about these orcs? Are they good orcs? Orcs that turned to the paladin's god?

Pushing the "Fall" button is an obvious sign of a bad GM.

>>53263064
No, you retard. The Lich falls.

>>53263064
The orcs are 100% evil, that was part of the scenario.

The scenario hinges on if the paladin would care at all about the lives of those orcs. The answer will almost 100% of the time be "No".

>>53248964
babytechpriest.jpg

>>53263108
So the Lich falls...
ON the paladin?

>>53263131
Missed seeing that because I suck at everything.

>>53263183
>So the Lich falls...
>ON the paladin?
Yes. That's 4d6 damage, and paladin, gimme a reflex save to avoid being knocked prone. Then we can roll his touch attack to see if he touches you while falling on you.

>>53263229
>>53263183
Bad touch?

>fireballs

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>>53248964
>tfw playing dnd 5e
>tfw don't have to deal with any of this bullshit

>>53248964
Nobody made you use the white phospherous.

>>53248964
HaveYouTriedNotUsingD&D.jpg

Sometimes I feel like 4chan is my personal window into hell. I go to the catalog and see the same fucking thread with the SAME fucking op image at least once a week. I have been in this site for YEARS and it never stops

>>53266581
This is what game devs actually believe.jpg

>>53266581
wow, such deep, very pacifist

make u think maybe, the wars, they are bad, hmm

>>53249225
>Their alignment is evil. It says so in the books. They gotta die.

3.5:
>Alignment: Often chaotic evil

5e:
>The alignment specified in a monster’s stat block is the default. Feel free to depart from it and change a monster’s alignment to suit the needs of your campaign.

kys desu senpai

>>53266581
I didn't use the white phosphorous. The video game character I was controlling did.

It was fun, too.

>>53261403
Make the phalactery a baby orc. Watch tg have a fit

>>53266756
It's really more like:
>5e
>Alignment: We have to keep this around to avoid nerd rage. Feel free to ignore it.

>>53248964
No, because a paladin does not fall for failing to rescue hostages, or for any and all things that happen when he is nearby.
And fuck everyone in this thread for propping up this bullshit yet again.

If he fireballs them all, doesn't that mean he's actually a wizard, therefore possessing no sense of right and wrong? Where does falling fit in your narrative, OP?

>>53248964
>fireball
your "paladin" is an arcane caster, and even if he wasn't, smiting evil is just what a fucking paladin does holy shit stop making these retarded threads you spergs

>>53268725
Multiclass?

>>53268162
But then he couldn't be a paladin.

Smart paladins prepare Feather Fall to avoid falling.

Probably wouldn't fall, but if he does and I want playing that Paladin I would probably become an Oathbreaker paladin and do as I whim from then on. Cause the cosmic forces that power "good" don't want to ally with him for his goals, so he will just be evil then.

>>53266633
I'm pretty sure there were a few months where nobody made Mastermind.jpg threads.

Does he lose faith in himself and or his god from the situation? If not, then no , he doesn't fall.

>>53273199
I haven't seen one in years.

>>53273077
Don't forget the armor penalty.

>>53248964
slay the heretics. DEUS VULT!!!

Rolled 4, 5, 1, 2 = 12 (4d6)

>>53263229

Rolled 15 (1d20)

>>53263229

Rolled 11 (1d20)

>>53277540
>>53277555
Alright, so the Paladin takes 12 damage, but I'd say that's a successful save. Rolling for the lich now.

>>53277572
Well? Is that enough to hit?

>>53277608
Good question. Lich as a +9 to-hit, and this is a touch attack.
Paladin, is your touch AC 20 or less?

>>53278004
Touch AC is 10+dex modifier, right? If so, then no.

Rolled 4 + 5 (1d8 + 5)

>>53278030
The lich touches you while falling on you!
OK, then that's 1d8+5 negative energy damage.
Make two saves: Will save for half damage, fortitude save or you're paralyzed.

>>53278114
Oh yeah, DCs for both saves are 17.

Rolled 13, 9 = 22 (2d20)

>>53278114

>>53278144
Tricky, because I have only a rough idea of what the stats might be at the level when one goes up against liches. Paladins get good progression for both will and fort saves, though, and that thing where they add the charisma mod. I'd say both saves were made.

>>53278254
Yeah, I'd agree. +8 to fort is what I'd expect by 5th level, much less 12+th level.

The lich has fallen, the paladin has taken 16 damage, good saves have saved good.