Twilight 2000

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Sharing cold war images until this takes off

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All kinds of shit, desu

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Think this is 'Nam

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I think 90s shit like the gulf war or yugoslavia should also fit

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Imagine.

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Which aesthetic would dominate: 'Nam or Gulf War?

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All the extra shit this guy has

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I'm going to go til I can't go no mo

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Yugoslavia provides some good imagery

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The 90s were a shitshow

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All the shit that might have been

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Last but not least

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>>53223537
>Canonically France wins
How do you deal?

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>>53224288
HONHONHON

>>53223537
>I'd be interested in playing it, if I could find the rulebooks.

The Archive listed in the OP of the Traveller General has all the books from all the versions. If a /tg/ thread isn't active, check the board archive for one.

>>53224288
>>Canonically France wins

If by "win" you mean "marginally less ass raped" then, yes, France wins.

And "France" in 2300AD isn't the European France too many assume. France in 2300AD is European France plus nearly all of West Africa.

>>53223537

I played it back in the day. The game mechanics are a bit old school, and character generation would be considered a pain in the ass by today's standard.

I would suggest GURPS as they do guns better than anyone. But if you do use Twilight 2000, have have fun and don't to to attached to your player characters.

>>53223537
I played the fuck out of T2K when I was younger. It's a ton of fun.
I really enjoyed Allegheny Uprising (module) as I grew up in southwest PA
>protip: there's nothing between the ft. pitt tunnels, the loot would be outside the city, trust me

Oh man, I used to play this with my older cousin a long time ago...

>inna US Army platoon in western Poland when the bombs drop
>we were mostly unaffected by the first strike but quickly found ourselves cut off from command and behind enemy lines
>commander decides to fall back to divisional headquarters
>skirmish with some surviving Pact forces along the way, but continue with minor casualties
>we dont really think about what happened to the world, there's just a nervous optimisim between all of us that this was just an isolated incident. We'll get rotated out when we get to division command and head home as war heroes
>we arrive to find it a smoking, irradiated crater.
>we find some soldiers who declared themselves deserters, and after a gunfight one of the PCs got wounded
>bullet pierced his MOPP suit and we were in a highly radioactive area, there wasn't anything we could do with our limited resources
>we left him there alone to die
>after that shit got real
>we decided to head to Berlin, after all, somebody high up must've survived
>morale is raised even though we're low on food and ammo, all we do is think about what we're going to do once we get out of here
>a few more PCs die to bandits and Pact troops, but we keep reminding ourselves that once we get to Berlin everything's going to be okay
>eventually we reach Seelow and see the smoke in the distance
>Berlin is in ruins
>we are desperately low on food and medical supplies, and there are only a couple of us that have survived since the beginning
>as I saw the ruins I knelt down, and put my M9 into my mouth

>>53224288
>Not getting nuked
>Not getting turned into fallen state
>Not having to deal with problems like people fighting for a tube of toothpaste
>Still having more or less intact military
>Being one of few countries to realise that escalating the conflict further will backfire horribly
They were, at least in the first edition, the only level-headed guys in the entire NATO, as the inversion of the infamous "lel, France will totally surrender". In this conflict not playing the game is the only way to win, to quote War Games.

>>53224836
>"marginally less ass raped"
>Intact state with unscratched infrastructure
I guess we have different definition of "marginally"
>Inb4 but riots
Not everyone is American. And it's described straight on that France continues to function almost unhindered by the global war, because they didn't wasted all their resources, manpower and infrastructure on ridiculous and unwinnable war.

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>>53223537
More 2E than 1E but yes. Fun times. Though I prefered the system within the context of the Dark Conspiracy setting.

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1E is d100-based, 2E d20. they're basically 2 different games.

the fun part about 2E is that you get to roll a d20 per shot fired in full-auto - at which point the game feels more like playing 40K with a bucket full o' dice. still one of the best modern fire combat systems out there.

>>53223537
Take 1e setting, use 2.2e rules and you are golden. Literally no better stand-alone game dealing with modern setting and combat using real weapons.

I was in a long running Twilight 2k game a while ago. I'll write up a greentext for it and post it when I get off work this evening. If this tread is gone I'll start a new one. Hold the gap, a relief force is coming.

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>>53229140
>L85 mag stat
>FNC is basically a re-chambered FAL

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>>53229166

>>53223537
it's fun

>>53229742
>L85 mag stat
They have 20-round mags as well. They just couldn't fit 20/30 in the description. The text block above it has the right numbers.

>>53229823
>>53229742
As a note: Would you rather the 10-round mags the IW has in 1e?

>>53223752
imagine needing a jewelers watch repair kit to do standard maintenance.

>>53230093
>>53223752
Are there stats for the Russian AN94 about?

>>53230114
Just use AK-74 stats, except for ROF and the recoil stats

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Website with a ton of homebrew.

http://www.pmulcahy.com/

The guy is actually impressive. He got prototypes that I only found info about in the national archives.
He got stats for the MAF, for fuck's sake.

>>53224080
It was an optical countermeasure platform

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>>53231117
Well, yeah, but it looks neat as fug

>>53223537
It's one of my favourite settings, but it's a very numbers-heavy game. I'd love to play it again

page 9

>>53228706
>>"marginally less ass raped"
>>Intact state with unscratched infrastructure

Unscratched infrastructure which depends on constant imports of materials no longer available in the types. kinds, and quantities available pre-war. You know, stuff like OIL or NATURAL GAS. The supertankers don't exist any more, the various pipelines from the USSR don't exist any more, and while the deposits still exist, the lands above them are either occupied by hostile forces, irradiated wastelands, or both.

The need for oil and natural gas isn't so everyone can continue driving their Peugots, but so they can continue making the making unimportant stuff like FERTILIZER.

>Not everyone is American.

I never knew that.

>> And it's described straight on that France continues to function almost unhindered by the global war

The keyword in that statement being almost. As designed, the Final War was collective idiocy and, as designed, the French are to admired for their wisdom in staying out of it.

Suggesting that France is some shiny untouched oasis of late 20th C culture & technology blithely zipping along as the rest of falls into a Hobbesian nightmare is nonsense.

TL;DR - France isn't Gondolin.

Its a very cool setting, but the setting is a huge pain in the ass and it runs very poorly. I ran two sessions before I decided no one was having fun and we started a campaign with something else. I did kind of like it and I think there was potential if everyone in the group was really into it, had an almost complete understanding of the rules , and were very patient with the math stuff. But also if that's what your game requires to be fun it's not a very good game.

I think I remember a newer version being released (the most recent one, not the second edition) but I don't know if it's any good or fixes the ass backwards rules problem. I know it was on a completely new rules framework, but it was still like 400 pages and they fucked with the timeline details which was the best part.

I would love a modern update that keeps the original milsim feeling with having an intuitive rule system that actually plays well at the table. As of right now the game is kind of only enjoyable to a very autist group.

Also I think have like every PDF ever made for it including the magazines, if people need that. (Would need to check if it's on the hard drive I think it is)

>>53236513
*But the system is a huge pain
Not the setting lmao

>>53236513
please post the pdfs

>>53236615
https://mega.nz/#F!6xQlWYab!XmzDgUhd_JH4fNc0jqEpRQ

Here's the original repository. I have a local version where things are better organized and has the magazines included, but unfortunately I think it's on the hard drive of my computer that just died. I'll fix it eventually, but this is pretty much everything anyways.

>>53236513
I agree the math was difficult and lengthy when it came to vehicle combat (either vehicle vs vehicle or person vs vehicle) but that was really it.
Come to think of it, it was the PEN rules (armor penetration) that made things difficult at first, but once you understood them it actually became quite easy

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>>53230500
>He even stated the military utility trailers of 20 different countries.

>>53237174
Literally he Pen rules were what I was thinking about as I wrote that post. Even though there not hard to understand it took far to long to do for something that can potentially happen multiple times during combat.

Other than that there were a lot of individual system that worked kind of differently and took extra work. The day to day survival stuff was the most tedious and boring stuff in there. While survival rules were important to the feel of the game and the setting, they didn't need to be so simulationist. They would be much more fun as something mechanically smart and easy.

Has anyone tried Albedo? I heard it uses the same ruleset as Twilight 2000.
Same question with 2300 AD, I'm more of a sci-fi fag.

>>53237174
I remember the boat rules being a complete chore, tho.

>>53236753
Thanks anon. Please come back if you manage to fish the magazines.

>>53237773
>I remember the boat rules being a complete chore, tho.
They were. I scrapped a lot of the extraneous bullshit from Pirates of the Vistula (all the tables: marauders, river obstacles etc) and rolled it all into a massive (but useable) random encounter table.
Also, the characters were towing a barge that had a humvee and a sandbag hardpoint with an MG so they were truly a slow moving target.

>t. actual forever dm... since about 1984

>>53237395
The game was intended to be a spot on pure simulationist game, and it very much was amazing as such.
I always applied rules when needed, glossed over what I didn't. I think the survivalist part of the game crunch is extremely important to set the tone of the game overall, and can be used to apply a more 'dire tone' to some areas as opposed to others.
Keep in mind, it's still a game so just use the rules judiciously: characters want a story to follow and need more than just 'well fuck me, time to brew liquor for vehicles, time to forage for 12 hours' every other day. Give them that story, and use the rules sparingly as a vehicle to help deliver it.

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>>53237891
>>t. actual forever dm... since about 1984
o7

Don't hesitate to post your homebrew, revered grognard.

>>53237972
Doesn't Phoenix Command already fill that spot?

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>>53237277
>>53223537

Twilight 2000 is a very cool game: it's Grognard as all hell, but it's an RPG and not a wargame, so it has all the depth and detail you would expect from that.

it has some odd rules and character creation foibles, but other than that it's pretty good.

have played, i'd give it a 7/10

>>53229140
is that a FAMAS?

>>53237972
But that's what I'm saying, while it's interesting in theory to have a game designed to be an extreme simulation, in play it ends up being slow and clunky. In reality, eventually even the most hardcore get bored of rolling dice for all the minutia of there activities. Theoretically you could write scripts to do all the lengthy calculations for you, but I am always wary of that. To me it ruins the spirit of a tabletop game.
Also, that statement I keep hearing of "it's just a game ignore the rules you don't want" is a very silly excuse for bad game design. It's that line of thinking that lead to increasingly comprehensive rule sets that plagued the TRPG industry up until a couple years ago.

If you put a rule in a book, most people are going to use it, especially if you don't label it as optional or something to that effect. Also when the other systems of that game are built around that rule things start to degrade. For the case of Twilight, that could be a player whose character is really good at foraging and survival suddenly feeling useless because the DM decided to gloss over the crunch of that stuff today. I want a to play a system that gives me rules that I can expand and build off rather than a system I have to ignore to have a fun time. If the game was well designed I would want to use everything in it, and I could always come up with expanded or better rules if I felt it wasn't crunchy enough. A game should be geared so that people make home rules that are additive rather than subtractive.

>>53238420
Continuing:

In any case I would love an updated version of Twilight that preserved the feeling of the gritty, milsim, living off the land, type play. It need just enough crunch to retain the simulationist intent without restricting gameplay. I think the dire tone set by the survival rules could be retained easily through just an abstract simulation. Really all you need there is a random return on living resources influenced by player stats and a constant rate of consumption. That alone leaves them unsure if they can gather the supplies they need, no hardcore squirrel hunting simulation required.
In addition, most of the stuff should be redesigned to fit a few universal resolution mechanics instead of changing how the system works for most rolls. Even better wpuld be just letting the GM figure out a way to resolve more obscure scenarios like dynamite fishing (ugh). It's pretty much garunteed the GM will remember it better and it will fit the group's style.

Some of the stuff is great and I think should stay. Obviously the setting, the idea of morale rules (maybe could be handled better), all the different equipment you could use, and the NPC rules (generating them based on a deck of cards, genius!). There's some other stuff but I feel a complete redesign of the system with the original intent of the 80s game preserved would result in a game that would be dearly loved.

>>53236265
>It's totally the same if you have limited access to fuel (which was an issue for everyone for past decade and everyone worked their way around it) and getting nuked, with outright civil war/fallen country in the background
>Totally makes no difference
Fags like you are really boring. The worst part is even the original creators were constantly talking about it, but then came contrarian millenial faggotry and started "B-but how can France hold! Surely they m-must be fucked!"
They aren't. The whole point of 2300 AD is about them NOT getting fucked.

>>53236265
Also, outside France there are:
Australia and NZ
South Africa
And in fact, all of Africa
Most of Latin America (Mexico even managed to take pieces of US for itself in organised fashion for fucks sake)
Switzerland
Italy
Yugoslavia (which means half of Balkans)
Scandinavia (aside direct Soviet border, which saw conventional fighting)
Most of Asia
And so on and forth

The only butt-fucked countries are US, UK, Warsaw Pact (especially Poland), both Germanies and USSR.
It's like you don't even know the setting's lore.

The whole fucking point of the setting is two superpowers bleeding each other out without taking anyone down and the planet as a whole doing pretty fine for a nuclear war scenario.

>>53238257
if you have to ask...

>>53223691
That's the gimbal turret torn off a M16 GMC. It was actually designed so that it could be removed from the truck and either towed or put in a foundation. It was also really handy because the battery supply to move the turret was spread out along the base, making it very stable, so you could whip that turret around without worrying about flying around.

>>53240381
>Fags like you are really boring.

Plays realistic military simulation game. Whines about realistic simulations.

>They aren't. The whole point of 2300 AD is about them NOT getting fucked.

2300AD is over 300 years AFTER T:2000, douche. France wins because they're able to recover faster and France recovers faster because they're less damaged. LESS damaged and not UNdamaged. Claiming that the worldwide loss of petroleum production & transport infrastructure didn't effect France at all is idiocy.

France isn't Gondolin, faggot, and this isn't some case of asinine Francophobia either. France wins over the next few centuries because they were smart in the late 20th C. France still took her lumps.

>>53240437
>Also, outside France there are:

Which were all effected by the loss of petroleum. Everyone gets ass-raped. It's just a matter of how deep, how often, and whether lube was used.

>>53223537
You can find everything for TW2000 in the PDF thread. Was into this when it first came out and it made for some intense sessions. Had a party make it to Krakow and became mercenaries of a sort to augment the town guard. Then they hired out on a mission to Warsaw via the Vistula river and returned, before finally gathering enough supplies and (mainly NATO) personnel to head for France via Czechoslovakia, Austria, and Italy.

>>53223537
https://mega.nz/#F!C9sQhbwb!NVnD4jvUn5inOrPJIAkBhA

>>53243493
Wouldn't the african and south american oil fields provide enough petroleum for what's left of the planet?

>>53243493
Or, which you've might missed, the world as the whole contineus to go as it was, with nobody getting damaged aside the former top dogs, their satellites and countries where most of the fighting took place.
This is realistic scenario in a realistic military game. Because we are talking about LIMITED nuclear exchange and 7 years of fighting. If you seriously think that's not enough time for the non-participants to adopt to the US-Soviet war, then you are yet again projecting retarded expectations that have no backing in the setting itself.

>>53245478
They would, which is my point. The world is not at loss of petroleum as a whole. Americans and Eastern Block are. That's it. Nigeria fields are intact. Most of Arab installations are intact. Indonesian installations are intact. So by the end of it, the price of oil might double or triple due to war demand, war priority and getting both US and "Soviet" oil out of the picture, but that's not the end of the world nor utter collapse of petroleum production.
There is a fuck-huge difference between military shortages and lack of resources AND total annihilation of oil-producing facilities. Twilight 2000 has the first one, combined with serious damage to industrial centres of both US and USSR. Not helping is the fact that Americans have both government coup AND civil war going in their homefield, so things get really shit for them.
But rest of the world? Not affected in the slightest. And when you compare the damage to war participants with all the "suffering" of the non-participants, it's basically a down-time for their (and in a sense - global) economy.
>TBC

>>53245478
>>53246207
>Continuing
That's also why France rises in the setting's timeline - they are one of the biggest economies on the planet before Uncle Sam and Uncle Joe dediced to fight each other and by the end of it - the biggest. China in this scenario can't rise as it did IRL, because most of investors and markest that boosted them cease to exist. Japan is affected by lack of export markets, BUT it has whole Asia now for itself. And so on and forth.
The setting, at least the one from 1e, is really well-thought and made by people who knew their shit. Compare it with the ridiculous setting of Twilight 2013, which has so little in common with geopolitics or global economy or just reality it could as well take place in some fantasy heartbreaker made by highschoolers.

>>53223821
It's clearly post-Nam aesthetic. US soldiers wear woodland camo, PASGT helmets and vests. The load bearing equipment is ALICE. The M16 rifles use standard 30-round magazines and rounded handguards. The Soviets use already the AK-74 as standard rifle, which was also introduced after Nam. Maybe National Guards units would still wear OD fatiques, and M1 helmets.

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The First Chechen War has plenty useable pictures.

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I used some on my custom Twilight 2000 1st Edition character sheets.

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>>53247450
>>53247472
When the Yugoslav Wars went down I remember thinking "this is what Twilight 2000 would have looked like"

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>>53247544

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You can also look up for Reforger and Free Lion 88 exercise. Plenty pictures of NATO in West Germany.

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You'll never ride on a BMP-2 wearing a Berezka camo suit and listening to Grupa Krovi. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8K0sW8GX-4

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You'll never destroy a convoy of T-72 while listening to Judas Priest (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_aQgmFXRYI).

>>53223821
Something between 'Nam and retro-futurism. Just look up covers and the art from the books. It's "future as evisioned from mid-80s"

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Many years ago I was part of a campaign based around Royal Marines up in the Nordkapp. I remember spending more time fighting disease and the elements rather than the Soviets, and the ambush we did carry out took place over two game sessions of real time but only two minutes game time. But it was immensely satisfying. We never got too far in it but we did manage to plan and carry out a raid on an airfield, escape a bunch of Soviet Marine hunter-killer patrols out to find us, then decide on a near-suicidal mission to hit the sub bases on the coast. (IIRC the Northern fleets pretty much wipe each other out in the first week?) I still have strong memories of the game and it was an excellent experience, but probably a bit over our young heads at the time.

Later the same DM organized a series of games he imaginatively called Twilight 1939, which as you can guess just shifted the system to WW2. It required very little modding, just dropping the obvious modern stuff, tweaking the careers and statting new equipment. I played two games; one where my fanatical young SS officer was headshotted by a sniper on literally his first day of the job in Poland 1939, and a more successful bout as a Marine in the Pacific. It really requires little adjustment to run and again, I have fond memories of the whole thing.

The issue with military RPGs is giving your party a sense of agency. Players used to being independent murderhobos can find it jarring to now be confined within a system of orders and discipline. That's why playing special forces or vehicle crews tends to be popular because you can have more independence. T2K worked because you were practically an adventuring party anyway and there was no-one ordering you around.

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>>53247450
Try Yugoslav Wars

>>53247871
>I remember spending more time fighting disease and the elements rather than the Soviets
That's just standard fare in Twilight

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>>53247877
I saw the Yugoslavian war on TV - it happened a few hundred kilometer from where I live. Anyway, here's the Twilight 2000 character sheet I made (it's for 1st edition). Equipment and vehicle sheets are coming.

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The vehicle sheet.

Strange. Cannot upload the equipment sheet.

>>53244330
Which book should I read to get an overview of the best setting lore?

>>53248351
Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising.

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>>53248351
The core books give the main timeline, the various supplements fill in the details. PDF related is basically a collection of all the known events into one big infodump.

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And a collection of charts with an updated equipment list.

>>53248371
I did read that...a long time ago! It was entertaining despite Clancy's bloated writing style.

>>53248393
Thanks, I'll take a look at this!

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Camopedia

>>53248525
I'm interested in the setting but frankly these kinds of charts just make my eyes glaze over.

Has anyone made a similar game but with our modern world and a semi-nuclear war involving Russia and China in the 2020s?

Might be neat to have cyber-hacking as an option with a mangled splinternet.

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>>53248810
Twilight 2000 is a crunchy system. The charts are just from the basic box. If you want something lighter, you'd have to convert merge Cyberpunk 2020 and Mekton Z and convert the real world equipment.

>>53247544
>When the Yugoslav Wars went down I remember thinking "this is what Twilight 2000 would have looked like"
Checked
Also this is exactly what I thought too

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>>53245478
There are no brake on the rape train. Installations that could be used by the enemy got nuked, too, even if they were located in neutral territories.

>>53248810
I'd love to see this. To start today, and have things turn south quick, and pick up with the TW2K premise (shit's bad, you're on your own now, try to get home/survive/improve things)

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Funny how Romanian troops were badly equipped in 1989. They were still using AK-47 clones and had uniforms straight out of WWII.

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Anyone willing to share pic related?

>>53248943
>uniforms straight out of WWII.
I'd rather have those woolen greatcoats during the winter than anything the US Army hands out.

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>>53246224
One game that impressed me in that regard is early Shadowrun. They made the SOX, which outside of being an irradiated containment area, contains a ton of content borrowed from the Saar french protectorate and some pretty obscure european sci-fi books with a similar theme.

>>53249045
That's a new one to me. Though I have to admit it's been years since I actually read anything let alone GMed a session of T2K.
>sadfeels.exe

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IQ5CKSgT32Y
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-9K-U9wirZc
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DVgDuWKW0U4

I'm reading the timeline and it makes no goddamn sense to me.

>Soviets invade China for no discernable reason, even though the Soviets were - since the 60s - deathly afraid of a two-front war against NATO and China
>They do this even though they just go their asses handed to them in Afghanistan, a country of 10m people supplied by a couple dozen CIA contractors
>Invade a country of 1.1b people instead
>West German forces unilaterally invade East Germany, breaking SACEUR/NATO control somehow and starting WW3, something the West Germans were deathly afraid of.

None of this is rational for the time period at all. Could someone explain this better than the books?

>>53250104
It's all just based on the actual geopolitical fears of the time. I grew up in the 80ies (born in 75) and these were popular scenarios for tv and movies, as well as doomsday planners and theorists you'd see in magazines and on the late night news

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Lol @ the complexity rating of this game.

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I gotta admit, the idea of crossing Europe in a ramshackle armored train enhanced by every thing we could scavenge at each stop gives me a big playerboner.

>>53251494
Any example of GDW advanced or master ?

>>53251913
>the idea of crossing Europe in a ramshackle armored train enhanced by every thing we could scavenge at each stop gives me a big playerboner
Literally the module Going Home... it's a good one

>>53251913
Man, the Americans made a huge mistake in bombing the Serbs back in the 90s. They should have hired them as a merc army. With American weapons those fuckers would have cleaned up Iraq, Afghanistan and most of the mid-east in 2 years flat.

>>53251913
If I remember the inventories I made at my LGS when I was a kid, GDW advanced and master were wargames like Harpoon, Team Yankee and Air Superiority. But I might be wrong as I was like 20 years ago.

>>53252147
The Americans made a lot of mistakes. The Bay of Pigs failure, arming and training Ben Laden, bombing the Serbs, getting rid of North African and Middle Eastern dictators...

>>53252480
>arming and training Ben Laden

That didn't happen. cf. Ghost Wars by Steve Coll.

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This thread is getting dangerously close to /pol/ waters.
Let's post cold war stuff instead, shall we?

>>53248568
>It was entertaining despite Clancy's bloated writing style.
The secret to Clancy is remembering that the only thing he's actually good at is Cold War naval stuff.

I remember an Order of Battle somewhere but can't recall where it was. Anyone?

>>53252779
And there's the problem with doing T2K as anything but alt history today. Depending on your stance, it's directly in /pol territory. And remember, this is a game with the supplement Bangkok: Cesspool of the Orient. It may not be far from /pol as written.

>>53254055
>this is a game with the supplement Bangkok: Cesspool of the Orient. It may not be far from /pol as written.

But anon, Bangkok IS the cesspool of the Orient. More accurately Phuket and Pattaya, but still.

>>53249354
Yeah, but then Shadowrun turned into pure cancer setting wise...
... just like Twilight with the "2013" re-edition.

>>53223705
Yugo fits more, because it has much more of irregular fighting, militias, switching sides, comendeered vehicles, improvised weapons and so on going. Gulf War was literally 2 week long war that ended before it started. It took longer to prepare for the strike (almost three months) than the fighting itself and it was pretty conventional "high tech superpower smashes small-ass army made of Soviet surplus"

>>53240437
Asia had the Sino-Soviet war which Vietnam probably got involved in. North Africa had nuclear targets. Italy was subject to nuclear attack. South Africa was at war with communist states in Africa.

>>53254234
when we played that, my merc went there with one of his blonde model girlfriends. after the mission was over, he had to get her drunk, took away her documentation and dumped her in the worst part of Bangkok. she was never heard of again. poor thing had seen and heard too much.

>>53254484
it's not as interesting as 1E but you can run general modern SpecOps under 2E. we had lots of fun with that.

>>53248096
I remember coming to Croatia and Bosnia in '96 as a Geo student, after the first year of studies, for a research about karst formations. Shit was just crazy. with visible signs of fighting an general destruction (but also rebuilding) on every step, with at least one burned house in each village. In Bosnia we were assigned a military "guide" with a mine sweeper just to be sure we won't step into something, ending up with few re-routes to get around mine fields.
And that was - mind you - almost a year after formal end of war in those countries. Few years later I've came there for my PhD grant and it was by then a tourist location, with no signs of any conflict whatsoever.

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Oh JESUS. THIS fucking game. 1st Edition looked alright, but 2nd was a complete fucking mess. It gets praised for its incredibly autistic "simulationism", but anybody whose ever been in the military for a year or two can spot the glaring shit that doesn't make any sense. And so all that "simulationism" gets chucked out the door pretty quickly and all you're left with is a game that's needlessly complicated for complication's sake.

>>53254616
>Italy was subject to nuclear attack
Not him and correct me if I'm wrong, but the only target in Italy was Rome. Fucking Poland got nuked harder than certain Western countries.
And the SA war with neighbours was pretty much the same thing as happend IRL. SA went out of that unscratched. And this time nobody would mind if it would just drop nukes on own enemies, as the world had bigger problems to deal with.

Either way, it leaves most of world unscratched. What differs Twilight 2000 from most post-apo setting is the fact the nuclear exchange was limited. Instead of launching all nukes (or at least 500+ scenario), we are talking about world-wide exchange of what? 80? 100 nukes? Major cities and industrial areas in States and Soviet Union, capitals of war belligerents, few tactical nukes in Poland and... that's all. Unless SA used their nuclear arsenal (grand total of 10 nukes), but I can't recall that part now.

Also, anyone remembers what happend with Israel in Twilight? 1 edition at least, since 2e is bullshit setting and 2013 is a joke I don't even care about.

>>53254972
2E wasn't more complicated than other, very successful modern firecombat games. It is significantly less complex than Shadowrun, for example. It is on par with (or probably less complex than) Dark Heresy.

Anybody who doubts that should simply compare weapon statlines >>53229140
with weapons from those games.

>>53255068
There were at least 100 strategic nuclear targets in NATO nations alone. America had at least 50, with the rest split between Germany Canada and Britain. China is said to have been hit by an extreme amount of soviet nuclear weapons, enough to destroy their ability to fight. Also neutral nations were hit by nuclear weapons, most notably the middle east and several African nations. It was a limited exchange but still didn't fuck around. The world lost about 3 billion people to world war 3 if I remember correctly

>>53253977
I remember there was a truncated one in the 1e manuals, though the most complete were in the US and Soviet Vehicle Handbooks
>I could be wrong, it's been 20 years since I played in the mid-80ies

>>53255068
Also I forgot to add, Israel went to war with Syria and Lebanon, if I remember correctly. They may or may not be under occupation, I haven't read the CENTCOM source book in a while

>>53255068
>>53255725
>anyone remembers what happend with Israel in Twilight?
At the risk of this degenerating into a /pol/-tier circle jerk (pls no), in my campaign Israel got rolled over by a coalition army of Arab states.
Without 3b+ in military aid pouring in, limited resources of manpower and munitions and more and there was no more Israel. Granted they did a ton a damage to the invaders, but ultimately jihad fanaticism overcame the Israeli resolve.

>>53255668
I found them in the vehicle guides, thanks.

>>53223537
One thing about TW200 rules. DO NOT follow the rules blindly. Better to pick and choose what actually works smoothly and makes sense as they are rather clunky. Expect to be winging it more often than not.

>>53223537
Played twilight 2k with a group of 7 with an oldschool DM that made his own custom weapons and such for the game. It started off as a wasteland survival and turned into tf2 meets terrorists in traitortown set in sci-fi fallout land.

>>53244376
Thanks a lot, anon, you are not a faggot.
Now, there's at least one error per french vehicle as far as I can see (AA NF-1 instead of M2HB, amphibious or NRBC-protected vehicles loosing those abilities, LeClerc instead of Leclerc,...). I'm happy to see that I am more knowledgable about cold war french gear than a game designer from the period, but it worries me at the same time. Was info about France particularly hard to find then, or are all nations riddled with such errors? I didn't notice anything wrong about the UK or BDR gear, but that's not my specialty.

>>53256664
Haven't looked at the vehicle stats and such for years so i can't really remember anything really serious outside of typos and such. Tanks didn't really last that long past the initial breakout for the PCs' group. Then it was light vehicles all the way to Krakow.

I would suggest anyone to read of the German breakouts from various pockets in 1945 to get an idea of the initial scenario which starts TW for the force which the 5th ID was part of.

"The most astonishing part of the story is not the numbers who died or were forced to surrender but the 25,000 soldiers and several thousand civilians who succeeded in getting through three lines of Soviet troops."

Battle of Halbe

>>53255663
2 billion in direct attack, another billion between the nuking and game start due to famine, fallout and radiation poisoning.
Most NATO targets were in USA, UK, Canada and West Germany, but also all European capitals, Brussel and few areas later with tactical nukes. Warsaw Pact got all industrial complexes wasted, along with any city above half a mil. Then tactical nukes in Poland, turning it into basically irradiated piece of barren land.
The areas that remained relatively safe are Latin America and Oceania, along with South-East Asia (aside Vietnam, where Hanoi got nukes).
Arab Peninsula is irradiated slag for all that matters, along with Lybian oilfields. The 1e book was written when Nigerian oilfields were barely tapped, Venezuela was in middle of major expansion and Indonesia was getting out of economic slumber, so neither of those plays any role in oil market, despite the game being set in 2000. Then again, Saudis might be nuked, but Iraq and Iran are still unscratched.

And about the whole "France is safe" - well, yeah. For West Europe, it's in mint condition, BUT it got fucked by fallout. So it's less about France being turned into smoldering pile of junk and ruins and more about France having serious problems caused by the fact everyone around them did. Still, from purely technical standpoint, they are in the best shape from all 1st world countries, by sheer virtue of suffering from goods shortages, instead of outright famine (they can still feed themselves with zero issues, a rare feat in Europe in 2000), decimated population or destroyed industry. If AD 2300 is taken into account, they've sorted their shit by 2010 and by 2020 had enough things going to send aid all over the fucking world as the first country to ever do such thing. For comparison, Clappistan remained a war-torn clusterfuck till 2040s by official lore and didn't start rebuilding for real until mid 2100s.

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>>53255981
>Question about official lore
>Well anon, in my campaign...

>>53257563
Sorry, should've said that's what we went with, not 'canon lore' or whatever

>>53257494
Yeah, as someone upthread said, it's not that France was amazing after the war, it's just they were the best off in Europe, and they had a lot of influence in untouched West Africa which allowed them access to the region's resources and acted as a springboard to the Third Empire

>>53258134
Also that apparently the guy who was playing France in the Great Game was a favourite of the Great Dice God

>>53257494
Iraq and Iran both had nuclear strikes against them, according to the mideast source book. Also both countries are occupied by NATO and WarPac armies

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Hi, T2K thread! Have you embraced your inner communist yet?

‘I remember the first time an American POW called me Ivan. It nearly scared the life out of me. How did he know my name? I stole his boots anyway. That shut him up.’
Private Ivan Ivanovich Ivanov

Only thing I find hard to believe about Twilight 2000 is it's initial premise (the Soviets suddenly going to war with China for vague reasons) and Mexico invading the US over its refugee crisis.

The US has, and still does, produce most of Mexico's guns. It's one of the few things the US exports best. Mexico wouldn't be able to gain ground for shit, even against a very weakened US, nor would they even want to.

Other than that, reading the books for this has given me a desire to potentially run this game online or something. I might use the original rules for the heck of it, or use the setting but GURPS rules.

>>53260791
The premise is different to a certain extent. You have to remember that this was all hypothesized in 1986, and seemed much more legit when you first read it back when it came out. A Sino-Soviet war was an actual possibility back then, at least in theory.
I agree that

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>>53260791
>the Soviets suddenly going to war with China for vague reasons
They nearly did a couple of times, solely on the basis of border issues. The USSR and China really fell out over Vietnam, then China's subsequent detente with the US. Strategy & Tactics magazine produced two separate issues dealing with a Sino-Soviet war in the 60s and 70s, which shows how much it was on the mind of Western planners.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Soviet_border_conflict

>>53260862
>>53261001

The more you know. Is the idea of Mexico going to war with the US still retarded, though, or would a late-nineties Mexico be able to do passably well against a very weakened America dealing with civil unrest?

>>53223821
OG T2k (I've played every version) was definitely 'Nam. It came out mid '80s.

Later editions were post Gulf War (mid 90's).

The overall aesthetic followed the time period.

>>53261118
You say "A weakened America," but you have to remember they were fighting a war in literally every continent but Antarctica, had been hit by several nuclear strikes, and also broke in to civil war just months after the Mexican invasion.

>>53261001
And yes, the USSR going to war with the Chinese was very likely. They even mention in T2k that China had a hardliner Maoist coup, which would only make them more likely to want to engage the Sovs. A preemptive attack by the Soviets to catch the Chinese before they mobilize was always their idea.

So I was considering writing Twilight 2000 in to a Cyberpunk setting, ignoring the 2300ad canon and building my own more gritty future from it. Does this sound like a good idea at all? Specifically, I want the American civil war to stalemate, and possibly fracture some new nations, while France and Japan, having been spared the horrors of nuclear war, begin being the new superpowers.

I know it's only tangentially related, but really, where else could I ask this?

>>53261118
Remember also the Mexicans have the support of Cuba, and the Soviet forces stationed there; the latter's Division Cuba actually bears the brunt of the fighting.

>>53254544
>small
They were the fourth largest standing army at the time.

>>53262278
But they were also very very very very trash.

>>53248943
>uniforms straight out of WWII
Not like it matters.

>>53262354
True, but they weren't small.

>>53261458

I don't recall reading about America being involved in Africa or South America. Is that in the 2nd edition?

>>53261739

I can see all the Cubans Castro sent us in the 80s being torn between fighting against Castro, and not fighting against their own people. Or just taking advantage of the situation to sell coke again.

>>53263252
Okay, no South America, but they have troops stationed in Africa, specifically Kenya. That is sourced from an unofficial sourcebook, which is the only thing to ever mention Africa in T2k, but nonetheless it draws on real American military positions within Africa at the time. It's safe to assume America would be attempting to secure the continent from Communist uprisings that could very well threaten strategic areas like the Mediterranean and Kenya.

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>>53254234
Stop acting like a sensitive pussy. The title sounds extravagant - but that's something fairly common for the 1980s (see pic related). The book itself is absolutely ok and explains what's going on in SE-Asia in the Twilight 2000 universe.

Just as a reminder 1980s Thailand was a super-exciting place to be if you were some kind of drug dealer, arms dealer, human trafficker, mercenary, secret agent, or adventurous sex tourist. It was stuck between Burma, the Karen State, the Wa State, the Shan State, communist Laos, and war torn Cambodia. The drug lord Kung Sa was running most of the Golden Triangle by himself with the complicity of corrupt generals. The Vietnam War just ended. Numerous US army personnel and CIA agents were still based in Thailand. Mass tourism was just starting with a promise of exotic and sex.

>>53261368
PASGT was introduced mid-1980s. It was first deployed in Granada in 1983. In a full-scale war like Twilight 2000, there's probably going to be a mix of equipment from different periods. Late Vietnam era gear (M1 helmet, M69 flak vest, ALICE webbing, woodland camo, M65 field jacket...) will most likely be mixed with Gulf War era gear (PASGT helmet and vest, IIFS webbing...).

>>53262278
Hey anon, what if I told you Yugoslavia had 9th standing army of the time (despite small population) and when the war started, it crumbled within days into disorganised militias?

>>53264451
Would Twilight 2000 work for a SAS campaign?

>>53258160
Nah, it's just easy-to-justify snowball effect:
Most of population alive -> most of infrastructure intact -> the government more or less still exists -> all internal issues reduced to situation in style of Great Depression -> military more or less intact -> massive interventionist policies (the "work for food and shelter" style) -> repair of crucial industries -> overall situation getting better within few first years -> getting straight soon after

The important part is also timing. France is already going through "rebuild" phase when everyone else is still busy waging the war. Remember how the main reason for the final NATO push in Europe was to secure the fishing on Baltic, aka "get some food for our forces"? At that point France already restored part of own infrastructure.
So it's less aboug RNG and more about starting earlier from better position.

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Best Germany right here

>>53260862
>1986
'84. The L85 wasn't even out when the thing was first released. Which is why the IW's statblock in 1e is funky. Speaking of 1e, does anybody know when the last errata sheet is from? The PDF I've got has the one from Feb 15 1985, and my box version has the one from August 8 '85.

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>>53266215
Yes and no. Twilight 2000 emphasizes combat (man vs. man, man vs. vehicle, vehicle vs. vehicle) and survival. As such the system is very technical and crunch heavy. You surely could play a secret agent campaign, but it's definitely not the best game for it. SAS isn't about military porn, it's about a secret agent who travels the world for the CIA and fucks hot chicks. I think that GURPS, Cyberpunk 2020 (without cyber and punk) or Savage Worlds would be better suited for it. Though in 1985 you'd probably would have rolled with Twilight 2000 by lack of a better system.

>>53266343
Just the name is strange. The stats are pretty much spot on.

>>53266215
>Would Twilight 2000 work for a SAS campaign?
>>53266465
>Though in 1985 you'd probably would have rolled with Twilight 2000 by lack of a better system.

TSR's Top Secret would be ideal

>>53266501
The mag stat is wrong, they think it uses 10-round mags. If there's late enough errata for 1e, it might have an updated mag size. Although the Survivor's Guide to the UK, which does call it the L85, still has its Mag (and the L86's, since they use the same) as 10, and that's from 1990, so probably not.

>>53266574
1st Edition doesn't use the real magazine capacity, but instead uses an abstract shot (burst) value. That's why all weapons have odd magazine capacities. There has never been an update for this rule. The whole system changed with the 2nd edition. A shot capacity of 10 would equal a magazine capacity of 30 rounds.

>>53266644
Or, right. You'd think I'd know that, owning it and all, but I haven't read it for ages because nobody wants to play it.

>>53266661
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDCRop6CRwY

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>>53266689
That video made me laugh.

>>53266689
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9e3UCcU00TTKZGYyt7empeySNqh-xJWb

>>53266742
>the L85 is so bad that they only got the MRBF past ~300 by ignoring all the times it jammed or malfunctioned in such a fashion that you had to disassemble it to fix it, and still only barely managed to clear their target of 2500
>when your gun is so shit that it only takes about 10 magazines worth of ammo for something as bad as the bolt shearing to happen
>when you think composing your gun design team of people who've never even fired a rifle before is a good thing
Fucking Enfield.

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>>53266744
The SA80's bayonet is also pretty dorky. The rifle's barrel is pushed through the handle. To be able to still use the rifle, the blade is off-centered. Brits really cannot design stuff normally.

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>>53255981

Israel was in possesion of nuclear weapons in the T2000 timeline no ?

A quick israeli blitz with coupled with a nuclear offensive should be enough to destroy any organized ayyrab military at the time.

>>53257494
> If AD 2300 is taken into account,

Somebody has a briev overview of the timeline for me ?

>>53266236
But i think it is tremendously unrealistic that France is able to close its borders against the Hordes of refugees, managing the fallout damage and reestablish their ressource connections. They might be slightly better off than the rest but with all of europe fucked they are in a bad spot.

>>53266465
There was an official James Bond rpg.

>>53266865
Correct. And it's even older than Twilight 2000.

>>53266865
>>53266891
It was pretty cool too, the combat system was clunky but it really focused on capturing the Bond flavour. The three difficulty tiers - Rookie, Agent, 00 - also meant you could vary the gameplay each time.

>>53266852
>Somebody has a briev overview of the timeline for me ?
A very brief overview:
~2000: T2K: Cold War goes hot, etc.
~2300: 2300 AD: Man spreads out into space. I believe 2300 AD is set in the Sol systems and maybe its near neighbours
I don't know my Traveller timeline well enough to give you proper dates on the following.
Many years later: T4
~4500: Traveller
Some time later: MegaTraveller
Even later: Traveller: TNE

Those six games form a rough timeline.

>>53266912
Oh, T4 is Traveller 4th edition.

>>53266912
2300AD is not connected to the Traveller timeline at all, this is an old and common misunderstanding from when it was refereed to as Traveller 2300AD. But the Twilight War and the Kafers etc are totally separate from the OTU timeline.

>>53266956
Why was it referred to as Traveller 2300AD, anyway?

>>53266999
I have no idea, but they dropped it soon enough - like less than a year after the first publication - when all the confusion became a thing. It's a natural assumption to think they're connected, but they are indeed separate universes.

>>53266689
>Worst Modern Military Rifle
What is AN-94, the "successor" of AK-74, which was so bad, the production ceased in 2004 and Russians never actually implemented it into their armed forces and directly started working on successor for that shit, while still keeping AK-74.

Said that, L85 is absolutely "hilarious" to use if you happen to be left-handed and with left eye as your main one. I am. And I never saw a gun with worse ergonomy.

>>53267847
There's nothing actually mechanically wrong with the AN-94, though. It's just too expensive for widespread adoption.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtMssTSnRHU

>>53266852
>But i think it is tremendously unrealistic that France is able to close its borders against the Hordes of refugees
1) There are no "hordes" - 3/4 of European population is DEAD and most of survivors are French
2) French Army is one of few armies left in the world that still has manpower, supplies and high command, while everyone else is reduced to commandeering vehicles, operating on squad/platoon basis and basically being marauders/deserters/remnant
3) The country is under martial law until 2040s, for almost 50 years in total
4) They have intact military-industrial complex. Making new guns and bullets for them is a non-issue for them
>managing the fallout damage
They don't. But geography is working in their favour, thus southern France is not affected by fallout (and it wouldn't be IRL, unless intentionally nuked). 3 guesses where most of French agriculture is placed. Since 1e was written from early 80s perspective, that's also where sizable chunk of Frech heavy industry was placed
>reestablish their ressource connections
Depends on what resources we are talking about here
What you need to undestand here is that France is capable of agriculture. That's a RARE feat in the realities of Twilight 2000. They not only can feed themselves, but produce surplus food. Most of Europe can't even farm at all, because the top soil is utterly fucked due to radiation. This makes their lives MUCH easier. And because they have surplus, they also don't need to be afraid about fuel - within the settings verse, engines running on alcohol or converted to run on alcohol are a norm. This means they DON'T need oil to keep things running. 3 guesses what does it mean for France
>they are in a bad spot
They are in great spot. They have access to both Atlantic AND Mediterranean Sea. They have undamaged ports and factories. 3/4 of the country is not affected by fallout in the slightest. Western border is militarised area since mid-90s, so the only inlet of "mass" refugees is secured

>>53267880
>Nothing wrong.
It has shit-tier durability. We are talking about meme-tier early models of M16 durability. And it was literally cheaper to develop a new gun than try to find a solution for that, given already expensive price of making and maintaining AN-94

>>53266852
Adding to this anon >>53268008 there is a simple rule of the thumb of how to treat France within the game setting. Just think about it as if it was USA during WW2. While everyone was busy bombing each other, destroying infrastructure, marching their armies back and forth, plundering, looting, burning, decimating and so on and forth, France kept most of its land undamaged, along with agriculture and industry. And while they aren't in perfect situation (the world almost blown itself into pieces), they are under strain, instead of being turned into rubble. So while everyone else has no farms, French argiculture still operates. While nobody has any industry aside workshops, French factories are still there. Nobody has any army - French still have regular forces. And so on, you get the picture.

>>53249345
I once had an East German army raincape that I swapped for a box of biscuits fruit that I'd spivved. Fucker lasted me 15 years.

>>53224836

But... current France already contains the inhabitants of all of West Africa.

>>53252603
Except it did. And no amount of revisionist bullsgit is going to change the fact that Bin Laden got most of his training in a Pakistan based camp that was se up and funded by the USA.

>>53268008
>3) The country is under martial law until 2040s, for almost 50 years in total


Can someone give me a brief overview what happens in the t2000 timeline up until 2200 or something ?

I guess germany is fucked beyond repair.

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>>53268279
>Can someone give me a brief overview what happens in the t2000 timeline up until 2200 or something ?
I'll post the history section from the 2300AD core book
1/4

>I guess germany is fucked beyond repair.
Actually they come back with a vengeance

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>>53268350
2/4

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>>53268361
3/4

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>>53268378
4/4

>>53254234

It wasn't that bad in 2007 when I went there. I literally went there as a virgin 19 year old prospective sex tourist and enjoyed Bangkok, Phuket and Pattaya, so I can't be that bad.

>>53268398

Also, I wen't alone and didn't know anyone there, so I was on my own.

>>53266689
Confirming the mag release issue. Entire fucking unit managed to accidently drop their mags during shooting practice. It took a lot of conscious effort to not bump the release button and it was going off just as easy as shown on this video.

>>53268029
Like he said. The AN-94 never took off (production officially lasted from 1994 to 2006). It was one of those failed projects like the H&K XM-8. It didn't matter that the AN-94 was shit as the Russians already had a relatively modern assault rifle - the AK-74. They changed it a little bit (AK-74M) so it lasts until the AK-12 or AK-107 replaces it. The Brits on the other designed a rifle, equipped all their troops with it, and then discovered that it was a mediocre weapon (the French did the same with the FAMAS-F1).

>>53268378
>France guaranteeing the independence of Indochina
huehuehue

>>53268598
Somewhat on a side note - FAMAS, even in first itteration, isn't even half as bad as L85, especially the infamous A1 model (and the A2 is pretty good, all things considered; not stellar, but good). The issues of FAMAS were pretty quickly adressed while still during initial production phase, the reliability issues were much lesser and the main problem is the same as with most bullpups - all the weight in the back, so firing full auto makes the rifle going out of control more and more with each round in the series. But in the end of it, even the initial run of FAMAS-F1 was on tier with A2, rather than A1. That also makes the G2 version better than A2, as there was less shit to fix and more budget for improvements rather than fixes.

>>53268765
>>53268526
Regarding the L85: would squaddies have been better-off if the MoD had simply taken the political hit, scrapped the whole SA80 programme, and bought another weapon off the shelf? What might have made an acceptable substitute - the Steyr AUG, or maybe the Ruger AC556 (fitted with SUSAT)?

>>53268765
>so firing full auto makes the rifle going out of control more and more with each round in the series.
Never had this issue (althrough the only things I can compare it to are the M4 and Sig 550).
Here's a list of grievances with the FAMAS:
Tool intended to mass zero the companie's rifles never worked well.
Mag release on the G2 can release the mag accidentaly (it's right in front of a metal piece of webbing if you have the right (wrong?) bodytype, so if you hold it too tight or jump on it...)
Early mags were flimsy.
Expensive as fuck (it is telling that when they tried to rationaize the costs, they managed to cut them by 40%)

Also, IIRC preproduction export series (green or sand) were more brittle due to the coloring in the plastic, so they dropped it.

So obviously Poland is the default play area, but what other countries would be interesting to have the players in?

I was thinking Georgia, personally. My T2000 knowledge is kinda week though, is there any official mention made about the country? If not what do you think went down? I suppose there would be a rather large Turkish and Russian presence there as well as the Georgians.

>>53268892
Wouldn't the FAL be cheaper at this point.
come to /tg/, have better deiscussions about guns than on /k/

>>53228706
>Not everyone is American.
The French Riot too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHZ9gOfmY_k
In fact recently, France has actually been out doing the US in rioting. I think attacking a police officer doesn't carry the same expectation it does here.

No other qualms, just wanted to point that out :\

>>53269363
The point was that they wanted to replace the FAL by something lighter in an intermediate caliber. Adopting the FNC would have made sense. If the UK could manufacture FAL's under license, they'd probably also have received a license for the FNC. Or they could have gotten a license to manufacture the H&K HK33. Heck, I'm sure the Swiss would have given them a license for the SIG 540.

>>53268892
>Ruger AC556
>A shitty civilian rifle
Yeah no

>>53268526

That's abysmal. When I did my conscription we used a modified FN FNC (called AK5 here), and during the year I spent in the army I didn't see that happen once for us. How is that even an issue, that's laughably bad design.

>>53268407
Calling Bangkok a cesspool is really exaggerated. Sure, there's a lot of prostitution going on, but it's limited to some districts (Soi Cowboy, Nana Plaza, Patpong, and Huay Kwang for the soapy massages). You don't have sex shows at the airport, hookers waiting in front of hotels or brothels and massage parlors at every street corner.

>>53269564
They could have rechambered their FALs in 5,56 and shortened them.
Ala IMBEL MD.

>>53269688
Because there are two things Belgium is good at: brewing beer and making guns.

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>>53264451
Fucking this....
Pic semi related

>>53266465
Twilight 2E isn't crunch-heavier than GURPS or CP2020

>>53269736
The requirements were probably 5.56x45mm, use STANAG magazines, reduced length so mechanized troops and paratroopers could use it, and have an integrated optic. The FAL is too xboxhuege, too heavy, not STANAG compatible, etc. As the FNC already existed it would have been cheaper and more cost-effective to adopt it instead of remaking the FAL.

>>53269763
Also fries.

>>53269845
It's definitely more crunchy than Cyberpunk 2020, but somewhat simpler than Twilight 2000 1st Edition. I'd say it must be on GURPS level of complexity. But that's not the point.

My point is that it places the emphasize on things (heavy weapons, tanks, artillery, survival, foraging...) that aren't that important in a spy campaign.

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Bumping from the rear with the gear

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>>53271333
my bad.

>>53263252
Cuban here.

They wouldn't hesitate a second before going at anything and anyone supporting the communists. If prisoners are they would sort out those conscripts and such who would want to desert but otherwise Officers, NCOs, and such are in deep shit.

It would be quite common for those in Miami to have lists of the virtually every important Cuban military and government personnel and have them marked for execution if captured.

>>53268183
>got most of his training

Who did the rest and set up his networks?

>>53266518

Anyone ever see the original Top Secret around? I much preferred it to the 2nd edition.

>>53223537
http://www.farfuture.net/Guide%20to%20Twilight%20v1.pdf

>>53268892
The only REAL alternative for MoD back then was to either go for antique stock or buy American. Both were out of question for purely prestige reasons, plus they really didn't like the concept of getting anything from M16 family.
Basically, it was still the best and CHEAPEST to just pick L85, fix most of issues that could be fixed and go from there. This way the entire budget spent on development could be still salvaged, the country would avoid getting hit by "our guns are so bad we need to import meme-tier American rifle" reputation and all of it would be made on tenth of budget required to get any other rifle bought or developed from the scratch.

If it will make you feel any better, late 80s and early 90s were REALLY bad for defense budget, defense decision and related issues. A LOT of equipment delivered in that period and even more gear bought as "modern upgrades" turned out to be shit, since nobody realised importance of such minor things as durability or reliability when they were developing those or just buying already produced ones.
For me, the lowest of low was Reynolds Boughton RB44. It was evisioned as cheap, modular light 4x4 truck that could also be used for towing and as a troop carrier. Full focus on cheap - the bastard was guzzling gas like crazy, just like it was eating gear boxes and was utterly unable to tow anything at all, unless you were driving on even terrain. Due to the 2.5t payload, it was also useless for transport when any of the modules was installed. Climbing mild hills was a problem with just the "APC" module alone, with no people inside. And just as you might expect from system highlighting cheapness, that module was unable for stop rifle rounds. 2 RB44s came to my unit on truck bed, and both left the same way.
The funny thing is, the civilian version of that truck is pretty good.

>>53275133
Not him, but you are missing a point here. It's not about what happend through the 90s, but who and why Americans supported during the 80s just to fuck Soviets over Afganistan. The real mistake was to provide all that fuck-huge military support and budget for all sort of "freedom fighters" and then not even throw a single cent on re-establishing anything in Afganistan.
So by the end it looks like this: Afganistan managed to secure a popular victory of left-leaning government, which started REALLY pushing the country forward, but since it was left, nobody but Soviets liked it. So Americans started agitation and soon after Soviets escalated the whole thing, appointing their own puppet government. Then they've used that to basically invade the country for the "international help of communist brethen". Then Americans escalated already shit-tier situation by funding all sorts of partisan groups. And they've spend fuckload of money, resources and training programmes to turn bunch of motivated goat hearders (in very literal sense) into irregular army with strong emphasis on decentralisation and web-like internal organisation. So you can guess when this leads later. Then the country was turned into a battle zone and basically everythign that the original "left" government build was turned into rubble, but nobody gave a shit once Soviets packed and left. So all that hardware was basically still there, but now in "private" hands and there was no state or even government there to at least pretend they control "free" Afganistan.

>>53277894
>the lowest of low was Reynolds Boughton RB44.

Can you imagine trying the intro scenario in TW2k in one? One would likely be better off legging it through the woods.

>>53278093
No joke intented, but I think those shouldn't be allowed to start at Condition below 5. You start from 5 and only go higher. The truck was just abysmal. I never had a chance in my life to drive a 4x4 vehicle so poorly designed and made for being a 4x4, not to mention a supposedly military one.

Then again, even god-awful vehicle is better than legging it, when you also have to carry all your possible equipment and resources on your back. But first given chance, drop the truck and pick something better.
I had my laugh when watching... ugh... The girl with all the gifts? I think that was the title of it. Anyway, it's Last of Us: The Movie and the squaddies in it drive a RB44. And it breaks down after taking a two random hollow point rounds on the side. Given those were retired long time ago and yet the film intentionally uses one, I say someone knew about the reputation of those trucks and intentionally put one in the story to have an easy justification for a forced march.

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So, what's the opinion on Merc 2000? I think it could be a pretty fun game if run right.

>>53278997
Very true.

The only real chance that someone has on foot is to raid somewhere for a vehicle. One spot in the intro scenario has a Sov field hospital roughly 10km south so they can try there. Much more riskier is to try to ambush a convoy on the road between Kepno and Ostrow.

The path the party took after the battle was SW for a ways until hearing about Krakow a few times and changing directions. In all i think they went about 400 km before reaching sanctuary.

They did the "Vistula epic" amongst other things and in the process acquired enough vehicles, supplies and personnel to make their way to France

>>53249345
I rather felt comfy in the cold weather gear back in the late 80s. Granted it was rather a pain when latrine time.

>>53251012
Same here. Until the Berlin Wall fell shit was fucked up and paranoid if you lived near a military base.

The T2000 timelines are some of the best researched and justified. If I remember the is even a bibliography in one of the books.

Also remember that Soviet Communism =/= ChiCom and that the USSR and China competed for the same resources.

They were, at best, allies of convenience against the West/NATO.

Also remember that Russia/USSR is/was an Oligarchy with the upper echelon (now Putin solo) being a dictator with supreme power and the entire government dedicated to their/enrichment.

A war with kinda sorta neighbors over oil/metal/manpower is not only likely, we are seeing it now.

>>53280781
I did a research paper in high school back in '84 about surviving after a nuclear exchange. There were a few out there kids in my school who basically ran amok because they were convinced that all was going to go in a nuclear war so what was the point of planning for a future.

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>>53281222
83-84 was the darkest period I recall. You had shit like Able Archer going down, and media like Threads and The Day After. It was definitely a spectre looming over my childhood.

>>53281421
You also had Twilight 2000 being written in 1984. It was a helluva few years for WW3.

>>53281421
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExIYbNE_bD8

Those times made watching the news and reading papers, Newsweek, Time, etc a a real requirement for everyday life. When i enlisted in '85, training was solely concerning the Warsaw pact threat and so things in the TW2000 felt very contemporary.

>>53281755
The War Game (The movie those sound bytes are from at the beginning of that song) is an excellent piece of work, I must say. It's a mocumentary-style movie shot to show the immediate effects of nuclear war.

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“This is Red Diamond Six (5th Div Cmdr) To the Commander Soviet Fourth Guards Tank Army I’ll surrender when Pigs Fly...break" "To all troops; Good Luck, You’re on your own now!”

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>>53283866
I wonder if Monk and the others in HQ 3Bn, 1/43 Inf, 2nd Bde, 5th Inf Div ever made it home.

>>53283918
I like to think so

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>>53284056
If you could consider them the core characters of the canonical campaign, which began with Kalisz and other Polish antics and moved onto Going Home, then I would say they did - although Sarge and the LT were probably too far gone RAD-wise to make it.

>>53236753
Are the actual core books in here? I can't seem to find them.

You know, I've always thought that the Poland series of adventures from T2K would make a superb series of cheap adventure novels or possibility a really good TV series
Maybe in ~10 years when the inevitable GM's urge to write a book strikes I'll give it a go

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>>53284113
Strangely enough they don't seem to be. Check out this folder: >>53244376

>>53284113
The /hwg/ thread has a full set, including every issue of challenge mag FWIW

>>53284113
>https://mega.nz/#F!C9sQhbwb!NVnD4jvUn5inOrPJIAkBhA

>>53284173
>>53284191
>>53284197
All right, now I've got them. I'm pretty interested, especially in the setting. Which books give the best intro primer to the world? 1E Core, 2E Core, any supplements?

>>53284220
Both the core books would be the thing; there are various cool supplements which detail different areas: RDF (Iran), Lone Star Red Star (Texas), the guide to the UK, and some others.

>>53284220
We ran first edition + first few modules but were rather quick in in streamlining things. As the GM i was quite used to winging from other RPGs.

Whatever supplements or whatever that fit with our story was incorporated in one way or another.

>>53223752
I used to have such a hard-on for this thing. There were so many things wrong with it. It just didn't work. No matter what we did, it just didn't work.

>>53224288
I think the north Vietnamese might have something to say about that.

>>53284158
You know, as a Polefag I laugh on that notion. From the point of view of anyone even remotely familiar with Poland (not even takes to be Polish), the content of Polish adventures is laughable. Jesus Christ, who wrote it?! On one hand the tactical data, hell, even maps, are autistically well-researched and period accurate (as in - Poland in mid-80s period accurate). But the fluff? Are you fucking kidding me?

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>>53278997
We had one of those too, the Simca Unic Marmon Bocquet (SUMB). Weak as shit, gas guzzler, gear lever basically behind the driver, motor fumes everywhere, the seats were so uncomfortable that you'd rather have stayed standing...
The state bought lots of them so Simca didn't go under, and it did anyways.

>>53286811
But wasn't SUMB delivered in the 70s? RB44 was delivered as a state-of-the-art light truck in '90, never mind being a slightly remodelled Dodge 50, a late 70s design. So at least SUMB was from its own period. To add insult to injury RB44s were already outdated junk when introduced.

>>53286771
I know the Polish naming things are all fucked up, but what else is wrong with it?

>>53287053
Literally EVERYTHING. The naming conventions are not that bad, all things considered, but the small bits of Polish are blind idiot translation and the whole "political" and religious stuff is just laughable. People rallying behind the painting of Matka Boska Częstochowska? That's insane even from mid-80s perspective and the stereotypical perception of Poles as devout Catholics. Baron Czarny holling up in King's Castle (just google the photos of that thing and maps of the city around it) and his whole neo-feudalism is even more retarded.
If anything, it feels like someone once read some article about 19th (!) century Poland and some romance novels taking place in Rurithania, then spinned a modern setting out of it and called it "Poland in the aftermath of nuclear war, 200% accurate!".

Still, the saving grace is that the game was never translated into Polish or even published in Poland, so most of Polish RPG community doesn't even know about this walking punchline.

>>53287189
Literally the only realistic depiction of Poland in a global nuclear conflict would be glassed wasteland, nuked by both side so neither can cross over with their troops.
Same strategy for the last 70 years.

>>53286771
I'm well aware of the laughable silliness of the fluff for those adventures, I just think the basic outline would still be a good story

>>53287343
And honestly, I wouldn't mind.

But I still remember my players reactions when I decided to run Twilight 2000 with them, but without explaining anything about the setting itself aside "it's Cold War going hot as evisioned in mid-80s". The moment I've mentioned they are with their truck right next to Kalisz (we live less than 100 km away), they've all bursted in laugh. We decided to run the "Polish adventure" pack eventually, solely for the sheer wacky factor it had for us. It was like playing something straight from a sitcom or a black comedy.

>>53287189
Even I knew the entire black madonna plot was retarded the first time I read the adventure and I was a fifteen year old from shit nowhere who'd never met a pole in my life. It felt like a rejected D&D adventure that had a cheap coat of polish paint slapped on

>>53287438
I'm not saying it's bad as a basic concept. But imagine you were playing a super-serious, brutal and down to Earth game, with pretty grim setting...
... and suddenly the setting turned into some super inaccurate portray of your country, its realities and local customs. Sort of the American adventures for Twilight 2000 taking place in stereotypical, overblown Western setting, while served with straight face and 100% serious.

>>53287479
If the writers were competent they'd have made a quest of retrieving it, along with the story of how Battle at Grunwald was being moved in order to hide it from the Germans.

>>53287496
>Sort of the American adventures for Twilight 2000 taking place in stereotypical, overblown Western setting, while served with straight face and 100% serious.
I'd play that

>>53287522
Original Polish guy and - this.

Seriously, the whole plot could work really well if it was about retriving the painting and/or securing it. Instead you have quasi-crusade combined with mustache-twirling villain and his evil army of dark minions.

>>53287189
>that thing and maps of the city around it) and his whole neo-feudalism is even more retarded.
To be fair, neofeudalism is a classic part of pretty much every postapocalyptic setting, even those set in america.
I'd call it less a misinterpretation of Poland and more them just digging into the trope bag a little too deep

>>53287569
>I'd call it less a misinterpretation of Poland and more them just digging into the trope bag a little too deep
Why not both?

>>53287569
Not him and semi-related but King's Castle is roughtly the size of White Tower in Tower of London. And it's in the middle of the city. There is just no way to station any form of troops there, as there is no place. Hell, it would be amazing if the building survived at all.

>>53287595
I mean it is both, the execution certainly draws heavily on the cultural equivalent of the bulgarian phrasebook from that Monty Python sketch, but the basic concept is a very generic one

>>53287642
I know, I've seen photos, looked it up when I was running the adventure.
I forget what I ended up moving the bandit king guy's headquarters to, but it certainly wasn't there

>>53287479
And for me the cheesy adventures they've provided for the game was the chief reason why I've managed to get players for it at all. Remember guys - it was middle of the 80s. Most people were busy doing dungeon crawls back then. So the Polish campaign wasn't bad by itself. It was rather a product of its times and I say they made it so cartoonish on purpose - it really helped to get players into the game and then gradually switch the themes and pace with each next module, until it was pretty serious post-apo game, but by that point you were playing with people who were into the game itself, rather than D&D crowd trying to play something new/different, but not too far away from their comfort zone.

>>53287728
This.

People nowdays keep forgetting that till about early 90s, the dominant form of roleplaying was basically murderhoboing all the time, with almost entire focus put on killing things and looting treasures. Just about any deviation from the format was groundbreaking.

cold war is so future

Can we talk about T2k13 for a second?
That game had some of the most awe- inspiringly nonsensical fluff I've ever seen, it was amazing
It's really too bad they folded before we saw what kind of adventures they'd turn out

What are the main differences between the 1st and 2nd editions? From what I understand they moved from d100 to d20, but are there any other major changes?

I've never played either one of them but I'm considering running a game some time in the future and could some pointers in which edition to pick, what their strengths and weaknesses are and such.

>>53288022
Technically 1e was percentile, 2e was D10 and 2.2 was D20
1e had simpler chargen, and no real provision for civilian characters, while 2e had traveller-style lifepaths
1e had some oddities in it's combat system but was faster when vehicles weren't involved, while 2e had more detail, but also a bit of an issue with characters being nearly bulletproof

>>53288134
Thanks, would using 2nd edition's chargen for a game played in 1e work without much else than simple conversions or are there deeper differences?

>>53288187
You'd have to kitbash a conversion ratio for 2e skill points to percentile but once you've done that it should work well enough

>>53288187
There would be a bit of an issue on account of the way 1e balances stat rolls with skill points, which would be difficult to work with the lifepath system
Also they use different sets of stats, which would cause trouble with some lifepaths and also with aging rules

>>53287902
They've folded because the game they were selling was shit and the setting for it was some stellar shit.

>>53288485
You sound very upsed about a company that folded some 7 years ago.

>>53289097
Maybe because they've still managed to shit on one of my favourite games and kill any natural interest that still was for Twilight 2000?

>>53287902
Good system shit setting

>>53223537
>Does anyone here have stories from this system/setting?

Oldfag/Britfag here. Me and my friends played this when we were 16ish, it was one of our favourite games. We also played the alternative setting Merc 2000 for a hell of a long time, and dabbled in Dark Conspiracy for a bit.
Anyway, back to T2000.

>Three players and DM. We all cheated or cajoled the DM through the character creation and every single one of us ended up doing multiple terms in the SAS. We powergamed the fuck out of it and had max Initiative, Small Arms, and the other fundamental skills.

>DM drops us into some clusterfuck in Poland, cut off, behind enemy lines. I guess he thought we would try and make our way back to our own forces.

>U fucking wot m8. We're the SAS. This is what we were trained for. We're going on the offensive.

>We make mincemeat out of the first few encounters we have, getting hold of a soviet jeep and some heavier weaponry.
>At some point we get the idea to leave calling cards for enemy troops. We strip a dead Soviet soldier, carve "SAS tour of Poland" into his chest, and leave him on display.
>Repeat every time we have an encounter, also mutilate other corpses.
>Eventually Soviet command takes notice and sends heavier forces into our area of operations. We annihilate a small armoured unit, capturing their BTR80 APC in the process. We ran over the corpses of some of the slain soldiers with the BTR, I don't even remember why. We hung others from trees, with more carved messages.
>The tour continued

I think at the time we moved on to other games we were heading for Romania to liberate the oil fields.

Merc was a lot of fun. There was a scenario released that was a rip off of Predator. We were all high on 80's action films and loved every minute.

>>53287558
That shit was so goofy that the only way to handle it was a straight hunt for loot. Thankfully the party never got around that area.

>>53289959
You and I had very similar campaigns... just substitute marine force recon for the SAS and you're pretty much there

>I guess he thought we would try and make our way back to our own forces.

>U fucking wot m8. We're the SAS. This is what we were trained for. We're going on the offensive

I laughed so hard at this because this is exactly what we did

>>53290357
I never had issues with Polish campaign, because all I had to do was telling my players "It has a BBEG in it. And he's called Black Baron. Literally". They've instantly decided getting to Hamburg is their top priority.

>>53293408
I had to change quite a number of things. Shit like the Baron got deleted really quick so it didn't feel like DnD with M16s.

>>53296519
I think what he meant was the players didn't want to bother with all that crap at all and went straight for the ship to US

>>53296602
By the time my players found out about the convoy it was too little time and too much distance. IIRC it was about a year and a half before they got things together enough to head west non stop. Mainly they operated in an area of about 50km around Krakow. They got to be quite expert ambushers.

cant believe that a twilight thread is on here AND reaches the 300

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>>53298991
>50km around Kraków
South of it are mountains. Well, hills, since mountains start another 50 from there.
North of it is literally nothing. As in - nothing at all, just flat-ass farmland with tiny-ass hamlets.
East is the same, with nothing but farmland and flatland. Unless we count the Niepołomice "Forest", but that's so small woodland it's entirely possible to walk through it in two hours.
West you've got minor hills, lots of flatland and fuckload of farmland. On the plus side there are some minor (as in - really minor and all easy-to-find) caves AND a handful of castle ruins, but come on, who is going to use those, and do non-Poles even know about those?

So where the fuck they were ambushing people? In the stack of hay? In the rows of irradiated maize (the most popular crop on the left bank of Vistula in the mid-80s was rye and tobacco, on the right wheat and potatoes)?

>>53299264
I suppose the fake checkpoint ploy on a road or MAYBE sniping would work in that environment, but that's about it, and you'd get to try it maybe three times

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>>53299342
Ok, so let's get a better view on the area around Kraków.
I've intentionally picked the most diverse images of that area possible. General rules of the thumb here:
- this is one of the most agrarian regions in Poland and for a good reason (flat, even terrain, continous settling for centuries, close to medieval capital)
- if there is lots of trees, there are no people around
- if there are rock formations, the same
- if there are hills, we are talking about the outskirts of the 50km limit and only in the south and south-west
- if you can't see farms, then it means you are away from both roads AND settlements of any kind
- one of the photos in the compilations shows the biggest town (can't even call it a city) aside Kraków in the area, so you can get the picture what kind of region we are talking about

>>53299518
Oh, and those rock formations are just a perspective thick. They are 3 meters (or 10 feet) tall.

>>53299264
>>53299342
>tiny-ass hamlets
>Niepołomice "Forest
>fake checkpoint ploy on a road or sniping.

Remember, it's the 1980s. It was easier to get information on the soil composition of South Vietnam than to find detailed works on Polish landscapes. Besides, it not like they were having daily firefights. There were long stretches in which the deadliest duel was haggling for vehicle parts.

>>53299518
Really nice!

Reminds me of the Shenandoah Valley.

>>53299560
You just need a basic topographic map. An atlas with map of Poland is more than sufficient. Or just any map of Poland that isn't printed on the back of a beer coaster is going to be good enough. Besides, it wasn't hard even back then to read about regions of the country you are going to set your game in. Especially not when given the autistic amount of detail and work they've put into everything else, including other modules and adventures and sizable part of them isn't set in the US either.

>>53299569
Mostly because it's very similar type of deal, both geographically (it's after all Vistula's valley) and economically. Not counting few factories and a steel mill in Kraków(don't ask about the mill, it was a commie way to bring "working class" into academic-burgoise city of Kraków, never mind being 100 km from coal mines and 200 from iron ores, who need economic efficiency when you have Stalinist city planners) and two salt mines (both historical) there is no industry in the region other than grain milling and a single brick factory.

>>53299722
Isn't there a big brewery there or is that a recent thing?

>>53299621
I had exactly one map of Poland from an atlas that pretty much gave zero detail except for rivers, woodlands, major cities, etc. and the books in the library were little better. When the action moved to Italy, for example it was much easier since there were plenty of Italians in my area and it was a snap to find out virtually anything i wanted in multiple ways. France was also easy since i have family there and i had all kinds of materials from relatives who've visited.

When i was running a Vietnam RPG, i had so much info it was insane. With Poland, not so much.

>>53299518
Extreme-range sniping, say using an antimaterial rifle at a kilometer out to harass trucks seems like it'd be viable, and perhaps roadside claymores in with the crops

>>53299748
Oh, right, the Okocim Brewery. Yeah, that should be within the 50km limit. And nope, it's from mid 19th century development, still doing reasonably well.

>>53299757
While I am aware from where all of it might came from, I'm still a bit baffled by it. Not because some misguided patriotism or other bullshit like that, but due the the fact how hard it apparently was/is to get even a basic info about Eastern Block, while there was entire Geographical section of maps, textbooks and what not about any country you wanted in the local subsidiary of the city library. Granted, I do live most of my life in what passes as a city in Poland (if 200k citizens makes you a city), but it's still ironic how easy it always was to get the geographical data about the outside world and most of the textbooks are still perfectly fine today, even if the economic stuff and most of numeric data is obviously dated, while you, having all that freedom and lack of censorship couldn't find shit, even if you wanted to.

>>53299843
Free City Of Krakow really feels like it was written based on a tourist guide to me, and honestly that's probably the case
You gotta remember that in those days 99% of poles in america left either before or immediately after the war, and tourism wasn't high on the government priority list after that so quite probably the authors didn't ever meet a single person who'd actually BEEN in Poland in the 70s or 80s until well after all that stuff was published

>>53299843
Pretty much was bad luck being in a broke ass town in New Jersey. Next place i moved to was great since i lived right next to a university and virtually lived in their library and did games in their student union hall.

>>53299944
Well, Free City of Kraków actually has some historical background behind it, as there really was such a thing - Kraków was granted a special status of almost-independent entity after the Congress of Vienna (end of Napoleonic Wars), so it's not that they've pulled it from the thin air in T2000. And even if they've did, it clicked right in with historical facts, the same way how fictional versions of Republic of California always click in due to the short-lived republic.
But then again, even looking up a tourist map in a guide would be enough to say "well, this shit won't fly", as Kraków is your typical medieval city, so you have a historical, but still fully functional center and the outskirts were almost entirely served by the Nowa Huta district (the one with the steel mill, since the name literally means New Ironworks), full of commie blocks and shit like that. There is just no space in the city to do anything at all, because it's densely packed old city with no empty space and no way to make some. Kraków barracks, along with the military unit, are in fact 10 km away from the city, next to the airport. And it's not that this was some secret or classified data, given Balice were one of only three international airports in Poland back then, so everyone landing there could see the military base and hangars next to it.

>>53300072
As a Canadian, I can't help but be reminded of the seemingly universal trend of every future-set 80s-90s RPG to have an independent Quebec

>>53300220
As another Canadian, that did seem extremely likely. Same with BC and Alberta (Best provinces) splitting off as well.

>>53300259
Honesty, I really did hope quebec would one day go full retard and do it.
Also I remember a lot of independent Texas stuff around that era, too
Funny how north american writers seemed to give up on the whole future balkanization thing around the time the actual balkans decided to go for it live, eh?

>>53300220
Maybe because back in the 80s, it was a somewhat pessimistic, but grounded in then-recent trend possibility of Quebec saying "fuck it" or however that goes in Canadian French and split off. It even works within the context of Twilight 2000 general setting, with the allmighty France and all that stuff.

>>53299944 >>53300072
>was written based on a tourist guide to me
I'm pretty certain there weren't any tourist guides to Poland during the early 1980s. Tourism only started at the end of the 1990s.

>so everyone landing there could see the military base and hangars next to it.
Probably only a handful of Westerners landed there between between the beginning of WWII to 1989.

There were very few information available about the Soviet Union. The only vaguely touristic places were Yugoslavia and East Berlin. The only Western travelers to the other parts of the USSR were usually either politicians or business people.

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>>53300397
>I'm pretty certain there weren't any tourist guides to Poland during the early 1980s. Tourism only started at the end of the 1990s.
>Probably only a handful of Westerners landed there between between the beginning of WWII to 1989.
Anon... are you baiting or just millenial? I mean sure, there was no massive tourism like today, but there was entire cottage industry in Kraków based around serving "rich" (read - paying in foreign currency) foreigners. And there was substantial tourism for then-current reality in Kraków. I know that from my own experience, since I happend to spend most of my childhood in the 80s and I'm native Kraków citizen.

>>53300447
There was no, zero, nada, tourism from the West to the Soviet Union, buddy.

"After World War II all tourist organizations were nationalized by the new communist government. The Polish Tatra Society and Polish Sightseeing Society were combined into Polish Tourism-Sightseeing Society (PTTK) and most of the tourist infrastructure was handed over to the newly created Workers Vacations Fund (FWP). Tourism was limited to the Comecon countries. This was the era of governmentally-founded tourism, characterised by mass but low-standard tourism. A typical sight was a holiday campground with small bungalows managed by one of the state-owned companies. Holidays for children and teenagers were organized by Juventur. After the fall of communism much of the infrastructure was privatized, although many company-owned resorts were downgraded because of their unprofitability. The early 1990s saw the foundation of many new tour operators. Some of them prevailed and strengthened their position on the market, being able to compete with multinational tour operators like TUI, or Neckermann und Reisen with branches in Poland."

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>>53300672
Explain me the hell has Soviet Union lack of Western tourism (which is also a bull) to do with Poland?
Are you at least aware Poland wasn't within USSR?

By the way - nice quote from wikipedia you've got there. You even remembered to remove the brackets with the footnotes numbers, bravo.
And that still won't bend reality. Even if it's trying really hard, especially the part about Juventur

>>53300672
People like you are the reason why Polish campaign was such abysmal pile of shit - they've read some obscure passage and wrote entire setting around it.

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>>53300672
>Trying to argue with a Pole about Poland by quoting poorly-researched and sourceless wikipedia article
Son, you've fucked big time. Bonus points for doing so during Polish daytime hours

>>53300895
Most Poles tend to get all butthurt when you don't say that their country is the greatest in the world. I'm pretty used to it. It doesn't change that there wasn't much tourism in the whole Eastern block during the 1970s and 1980s - mass tourism like now simply didn't exist outside of Europe and the USA. As few people would travel far, even less people would cross the Iron Curtain for holiday. But the point isn't to bash Poland as touristic destination, but just to show you that information about the Eastern block was sparse at that time (very few tourists = no tourist guides, no maps, etc.) - there is also no tourist guide to North Korea now. I grew up in Western Europe during the Cold War, and I can tell you that we knew next to nothing about our Eastern neighbors. Some people travelled there, but like I said, usually for business, sports or culture (which would include European communists).

>>53301230
I'm not even Polish and that's what makes me laugh so hard here - you are literally either too stupid for this shit or trolling way too hard.

>>53301230
>It doesn't change that there wasn't much tourism in the whole Eastern block during the 1970s and 1980
Yugoslavia being the notable exception. Also, there was quite a bit of tourism inside the Warsaw Pact.

>>53301276
I love arguing for the sake of arguing, especially knowing there's a guy sitting in front of his computer, breathing hard, typing angrily on his keyboard while mumbling insults in Polish (Kurwa! Matkojebca, pierdol sie kurwo! Jebiesz jeze!).

>>53301230
>Most Poles tend to get all butthurt when you don't say that their country is the greatest in the world
>there wasn't much tourism in the whole Eastern block during the 1970s and 1980s
Are you at least semi-aware that one of the most iconic "jobs" of commie era Poland, cinkciarz, was entirely depending on the foreign tourism? I mean there was a trade related to it and you are going to pretend there was no such thing as foreign tourism in Poland.
But surely, it must be just those butthurt Poles that can't stand not being the centre of the world...

>>53301331
I know. My parents visited Croatia during the 1970s. And I have never been arguing that there wasn't tourism within the Eastern block. This, I know existed.

>>53301348
>not stupid just trolling
You hit rock bottom and just keep going, anon

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>>53301348
Then I've got a message for you - no Pole would think or muble that when writing. The most likely reaction would be "chuj się znasz" - "you know dick about it"

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>>53301348
>Jebiesz jeze!
I have no idea who sold you that one, but you've been trolled hard