>a fine universe with good amount of handcrafted lore just

The fuck is your point

>>53205427
>sees the philosophy at a base for what it is, simplistic drivel that works fine in simple hero tales and breaks apart in any kind of mildly morally ambiguous situation

Define in your words what exactly the "core philosophy" of the Star Wars universe (or at the least, the force) is.

>>53205502
My point is why so many people hate Kotor2 for the examples above.

>>53205502
This, OP is bitching like the bitch he is for no reason

>>53205513
Only literal retards, autistic fanboys, and shitposters hate kotor2 for those reasons. Most people who hate it do so because it was brilliant for the most part but then turns out to be an unfinished disappointing mess.

>>53205427
>>>her rejected pupils were rejected exactly because they were addicted to doing evil deeds that didn't make their lives better
Dropped.

>>53205427
I fucking hate Kreiaposters.

It's like the Zack Snyder of video games.

>>53205513
Kotor2>Kotor

Not even a contest.

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>>53205427
You've seen the anime, now read the manga.

>>53205427
>makes an entire character who often argues devil's advocate with you to push a revolutionary idea of "perhaps not being a retard requires thinking for yourself once in a while"

I feel you seem to have forgotten a rather important point: Kreia lies. Like, Kreia lies A LOT. She's just very, very good at it, often mixes in a seed of truth, and is the game's primary source of exposition, so the fact that she lies A LOT can be missed or forgotten.

But it's still a fundamental part of KotOR II, as fundamental as "don't open it" is to a certain other game.

>>53205787
Eh...

Well, yeah, I'll basically agree with you, BUT with a caveat: the first KotOR has a better ending than KotOR II. I understand that KotOR II was rushed to completion and the ending we got wasn't the intended one, but that doesn't change the ending that we did actually get being extremely rushed.

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>>53205787
yup

>>53206042
I never understoood why Darth Sion Loved a Female Exile

>>53206131
because through all the pain she endured she was still able to thrive and become even more powerful. sion was a slave to his pain as it was the only thing keeping him alive

>Revan understood snacks

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>>53206298
>Mandalore walks by
>"maybe you want some pretzels"
>T-shaped visor scan the extended snack with implied disdain
>"pretzels are weak"
>"don't be fucking ridiculous Canderous"
>"Revan understood snacks"
>"I can perfectly well remember him eating pretzels back on Dantooine"
>he takes of his helmet
>"WEAK"

>>53205427
The entire point of the Force is that the light side is objectively natural and the dark side is objectively a twisted perversion of the natural order. Fucking "muh balance, muh grey Jedi" fags are the reason everyone hates kotor.

>>53206480
No.

Jedi are always harping on about "muh balance" and "muh light side".

Well guess what you can't have both. Light without the darkness is not balance. And the force could not have been destroyed. Perhaps the nature of the force would change, but is that not the very nature of a living thing such as the force?

All jedi are wrong, save for those few who have realized what balance truly is and that dark =/= evil, like that old guy in he first game who incidentally was the best character.

>>53206480
But don't you get it, anon?

If you ignore the laws of a universe in order to try and force an attempt at moral ambiguity, then you're doing a brilliant deconstruction!

Fuck if it's well worked or sensible within context! The best way to write a story for a setting is to try and push as much of your own philosophical beliefs as possible and make the rest of the game suffer for it. With any luck, people who think they're very clever for understanding overt moral ramblings will ignore the more setting-appropriate morally grey spots that other parts of the setting have offered up.

>>53206506
Because the light side is balance. Granted, the Jedi are dogmatic and wrong in some aspects, but it doesn't change the fact that usage of the light side is simply using the Force according to its own "will", where dark siders literally subjugate and manipulate it. It's essentially the difference between beseeching a god for aid and beating the god into submission until it blesses you.

>>53206506
See >>53205832

Dark doesn't mean dark, it means discord. Light doesn't mean light, it means balance.

>>53206506
>t.shadow the sithlord

Reminder that the destruction of the Sith brought balance to the Force and anyone who acts like you need both to have a harmonious universe is deluding themselves and ignoring the statements from both people within the movies(the ultimate arbiters of canon) and Lucas.

>inb4 "Lucas"
If your only answer to something in a setting you don't like is to try and quasi-retcon it, you're not being creative enough.

Good writers even made things like age limits on Jedi and medichlorians bearable.

>>53206592
Wrong. The original Jedi code acknowledged that the Dark Side is an innate part of life. Balance is reining in those impulses and controlling them. Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet the Force.

>>53206689
>wrong

You mean right,

"Many fans incorrectly assume that balance refers to an equal mix of both light and dark side users. However, as George Lucas explains in the introductory documentary for the VHS version A New Hope, Special Edition, this is not the case:

"[...] Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..."

In an interview, Lucas compared the difference between the light and dark sides as being like the difference between a symbiotic relationship and a cancer. A symbiotic relationship is one which benefits both parties and in which neither is harmed, whereas a cancer takes without giving back, eventually causing the death of both parties"

>>53206506
>"muh light side".

I defy you to find a single instance of a Jedi uttering the phrase "light side" in the Original or Prequel trilogy.

Lucas' version of things is that there is the Force, and the Dark Side is simply a name for an imbalance in it, like a cancer.

>>53206689
>The original Jedi code acknowledged that the Dark Side is an innate part of life

The Dark Side isn't simple emotion or chaos. It's indulgence in those things. Balance is recognition of the need for restriction; the Sith teach indulgence.

KotOR2 and Kreia are good to people that don't particularly like Star Wars, ie people without shit taste

KotOR2 and Kreia are bad to people that really like basic bitch muh objective light and dark XD Star Wars, ie manchildren

>>53207118
I know this is b8, but come on.
>this character is good to people that don't like the series
Then maybe she shouldn't be in the fucking series.

>>53207201
I agree, they made the mistake of making something slightly more complex than manchild level good vs evil in the wrong setting, Kreia would fit better in a setting that isn't shit

>>53207118
It's not good vs evil so as it is "shit people vs not shit people". Sith are emotionally the equivalent of NEETs. Self centered, self-destructive, and yet somehow incredibly self righteous.

>>53207285
I actually agree with you there. Kreia isn't a bad character because she's actually bad (albeit a little edgy), it's just that she's objectively wrong within the context of Star Wars.

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Kreia is fine, the problem is all the people sucking off Chris Avallone's 2deep4u mouthpiece.

She has opinions on how the force is. Her opinions don't line up with how the force actually is, but that's what happens when you're a crotchety old sith that got pissed your apprentices turned on you.

>>53207356
I would dare to say Kreia is a good character because she is wrong while making sense. A well argued philosophy can still be wrong.

>>53206689
The original code is about going beyond those impulses. In a way, both versions are actually saying the same thing from a certain point of view.

>>53207316
In Star Wars games I've run, a recurring Sith name is Darth Rahu. In Vedic mythology, Rahu is a demon who represents uncontrolled growth or expansion without wisdom or understanding. I stumbled across the name when Wiki-surfing, and have since loved it as a Sith name.

Mind, it's also probably responsible for the fact that when I need Sith names, I break the mold and go to Indo-Iranian languages rather than Greek or Latin the way Star Wars traditionally does - Rahu, Mainyu, Kali, Akoman, Zarich, and so on.

>>53207513
That better Kali as in the demon and not Kali as in the goddess, because she's scary but ultimately not a baddie.

>>53207534
It's Kali as in "Kali Ma Shakti De", as in I'm a huge Indiana Jones fan and really don't care much about the details beyond that.

om namah shivaya om namah shivaya om namah shivaya om namah shivaya ...

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>>53207589
That's sad because Kreia and Kali might just be one and the same......
YE-HA-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

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>>53206506
>Well guess what you can't have both. Light without the darkness is not balance.

Yes you can you fucking retard- that's the core of Taoism, which is what the force was inspired by.

The light side is "balance" and the dark side is "imbalance" in the same way a healthy body is "balanced" and fucking AIDS inside the body is "imbalance". The dark side The light side represents the force in general, while the dark side is a cancer that infects the force and makes it unhealthy.

So saying that you can't have the light side without dark is like saying you can't have a healthy body without deadly germs in it. Ergo you're a faggot who doesn't understand the concepts you're trying to argue about.

The Force is just the Force, period. It is neither Light nor Dark .

It gives life and it brings death. As a Sith, you bend it to your will. As a Jedi, you let it flow through you. As a Knight of Zakuul or Imperial Knight, it's your reward for your service, your conviction.

Both Jedi and the Sith just take their own views of the Force to opposite extremes. The Force is always in balance, as it's not a dichotomy of black and white. It's simply grey... It simply is.

However, you could argue that there are, in fact, two polar opposites and that the Force is the eternal conflict between life and death made manifest. But you can't have one without the other: The light gets too powerful? Two Sith bring down the entire galaxy in a day. The dark is about to envelop everything? No problem, a single Jedi will make sure to stop the Two right in their tracks, only to fall during the Darth Jadus' uprising.
Both poles rise and fall in an endless cycle. In my opinion, the Force achieved perfect balance during the time period in between the Second Great Schism and the Seventh Battle of Ruusan. Only during the Great Hyperspace War and the genocide of the Sith was briefly interrupted, but it quickly returned to its balanced state as the Vitiate rebuilt the Sith Empire in secret on Dromund Kaas.

Only when someone does something massively retarded as the Exile on Malachor or the Sith Emperor on Nathema and Ziost, it's when the Force gets wonky. Destroying or consuming entire planets, be it through Force rituals or WMDs, are effective ways to tear the fabric of the Force.

>>53205513
muh star wars purity bs

pay autists no mind. 2 trumps 1 in almost every way

>>53205513
/v/ hates everything. Stop going there.

>>53205513
/v/irgins love trolling. shitting on Obsidian is easy (You)s

Kotor 2 was so good, there will never be a SW game as great.

Hell, Chris Avellone will probably never something again.

>these fucking arguments again

THE FORCE IS NOT TAOISM. DARKSIDE/LIGHT SIDE IS NOT YIN/YANG. YIN/YANG IS NOT GOOD/EVIL ANYWAY, YOU FUCKING RETARDS.

THE DARKSIDE *IS* DISRUPTION IN THE HARMONY OF THE FORCE. IT'S ABUSING THE NATURAL ORDER OF THINGS FOR PERSONAL GAIN. THE DARKSIDE IS INHERENTLY UNNATURAL AND HARMFUL. YOU FUCKING RETARDS.

ALSO AVELLONE'S WRITING WAS FINE BUT IT WAS PRETTY CLEAR HE HATED STAR WARS AND KREIA WAS A FUCKING ONE SIDED MOUTH PIECE FOR HIM. STOP SUCKING HIS COCK.

>>53209852
You understand Star Wars perfectly, but have a serious misunderstanding of Taoism.

>>53205427
All I Know the Jedi masters were Correct about the Exile and the sentence they were about to make.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EtByaOxiwE

They give perfect valid Reason as to why they need to do and then lo and behold the Exile's new master a Sith Lord I mind you comes in and Kills them. Rendering the Jedi Order Extinct.

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>>53210058
>All I Know the Jedi masters were Correct

Then you know nothing. If the Exile got cut off from the force and closed the hole, then nothing would have stood in the way of Nihilus.

Their arrogance and lack of wisdom would have doomed the galaxy (again)

>>53208138
>is like saying you can't have a healthy body without deadly germs in it

Uh...I mean, everyone has e. coli germs in their body, they form a natural part of our digestive system and exist in symbosis with us. But if they leave the digestive system and infect other parts of the body, you have a bad time. Ditto other bacteria.

I do understand your metaphor, I've just got too much of an understanding of biology for it work. Your point isn't otherwise wrong, though.

>>53210058
She doesn't kill them.

She does to them what they were about to do to you. All three of them, at once. Yeah, she's good.

And being cut off from the force kills them. They've spent so long leaning on it, relying on it, using it in their every word and action until it's not even a second thought, that having it taken from the literally kills them. Critical existence failure.

And she only did to them what they were going to do to you...

>>53210916
They died because they were old as fuck and the Force was the only thing keeping them alive, sever force is hardly lethal to a healthy person.

>>53210956
"Look, we're ONLY removing one of your kidneys, you're a healthy person, you've got a spare."

>>53205427
>retarded philosophy
The Force is a living thing. Like all living things, it has needs.
The Force likes the Jedi. They are sweet, brave, kind and gentle. They're Nice Guys, always hovering around her, declaring their courtly love, not asking for anything at all in return. Into a pedestal she goes, pure and untouched, until she can't take it anymore.
The Sith are assholes. They take what they want, ask not what she likes, leave her bleeding and bruised. But at least she gets some action.
But she always goes back to the Jedi in the end. They are, after all, kind and brave. If only they'd stop masturbating over her and put it in already.

>>53205509
>Define in your words what exactly the "core philosophy" of the Star Wars universe (or at the least, the force) is.
muh good and evil

>>53210968
I didn't say it was healthy or desirable, just that it wasn't a lethal act in itself.

>>53210968
For one as limited as you, perhaps. To have fallen so far and learned nothing, that is your failure.

>>53205427
>>53211204


The force is supposed to be in balance, it's chaos and order, yin and yang.

Strictly following either side is doomed to failure which is shown by the constant conflict in the Star Wars universe.

Whenever the Jedi or Sith gain too much power the other side is empowered to defeat them, because the force is constantly attempting to balance itself.

The cycle would only end if either you had dark and light side users co-existing in one system and balancing the force, or one order that follows both.

Atleast that's what the better writing in the Star Wars universe points to, the rest is boring shit, or fun adventures.

>>53205427

Because the game dickrides Kreia and forces you into impossible choices for it. That homeless guy on Nar Shadaa is a perfect example. You have no option other than to be super charitable or super violent, and Kreia will call you a bitch either way.

Literally a good 70% of the things you do in this game, Kreia will bitch at you. If you take either option for romance, you get bitched at. If you take thirty seconds to help a random person, you get bitched at. If you bitch at someone else, you get bitched at. If you build your character and don't want to waste skill points on shit you'll never use, she'll bitch at you over that too.

Kreia is literally unpleasable. If you make what seems like a reasonable decision that may pay off later, the circumstances wrap around in the most bizarre ways to make her right. If you get locked into a retarded binary decision, you get treated like a fucking chump. If you talk with any of the party members in a way that's not on her terms, that's also a bitch session the moment you try to tune your crystal or take a prestige class because the game forces you to deal with her for basic things.

Yes Obsidian, in an ideal world your character wouldn't be dealing nothing but crazy people and situations that are this loaded, but YOU were the ones who loaded the situations and characters to begin with. Pointing out how crazy and wacky it is isn't cute.

>>53205875
>"don't open it"
I am legit sad that so few games feel like they have this effect in the players anymore.

Literally anyone who played that game through, knows the "don't open it" meme, because if the gamr did such a good job of making that impression on you.

Similarly, KOTOR2 did such a good job screwing with you, that pretty much anyone who played it through, will know that Kreia is lying bastard #1. And the fact that it even managed to convince some players that she was RIGHT, is outright amazing. Because it shows that, despite the game telling the player that she was talking bullshit the entire time, the players still choose to believe an imaginary person who screwed with you for the entire game.

For me, the best part was KNOWING she is a lying snake, and playing the game again, with more or less the same choices, and spotting all the bullshit. It engages you in an entirely different way, than Modern Shooting Gallery Game #525 would have done, Spec ops the line notwithstanding.

I have tried using this kind of character several times, but it just never works. You really have to appreciate how difficult it is to pull this sort of thing off.

>>53212026
What is the "don't open it" game?

>>53212235
Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines
great game, even /tg/ recommended, you should play it.

but seriously don't open it

>>53210058
> Long explanation from the jedi
> "But you haven't see the shit I saw, man! You didn't feeeel enough! There is... like suffering and shit out there!"
> Might makes right.
She basically said nothing.

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I never knew this game causes so much butthurt among spergs until I discovered rpgcodex and 4chan. You don't have to agree with Kreia, neither the game makes her be morally or objectively right. I also don't remember where all this "light vs dark" shit comes from, her central argument is Force causes endless suffering by making users dependant on it and clouding their common sense. Did you retards even play the game you shitpost so much about?

>>53205427
Say what you want, Kreia was kinda wrong because she was an entitled asshole

>No you can't help others unless you gain something from it
>No you can't do good because you're doing what others want
>But i want to help others, i don't care
>No you must not unless you gain something from it

Same thing with being evil

>>53205427
What did you expect? It's /tg/, we'll argue about everything.
The game being an unfinished mess pre restauration mod didn't help.
However, I like it very much, and as villains go, the Sith lords were pretty amazing (especially Scion if you play a female exile).

>>53205509
Living or Cosmic?

>>53212558
Let's be honest here, if you do good or bad things in Kotor, it's mainly to put the karma-meter where you want it to be and reap those sweet ultimate powers. The game encourages you to go in one direction or another. You kick puppies just because that's evil, and since you're evil you do evil things.
Same thing with Mass Effect. There is no point in giving a paragon answer in a renegade run, and vice versa.

The only recent rpg with decent moral choices was Alpha Protocol.

>>53212639
>There is no point in giving a paragon answer in a renegade run, and vice versa.
Counterpoint: Paragonshep going Renegade during Rannoch. I dare you to tell me it doesn't feel good to punch that admiral in the gut after getting back from the dreadnaught he opened fire on while you were still on it. And then telling them that you're through saving their asses after taking out the reaper.

>>53212888
Interrupts are a bit of a special thing because you don't have a paragon alternative. It's more of a bonus mini-scene.
For a classical dialogue tree, the equivalent would give you two neutral options, a Good option with awesome immediate consequences and no lasting effect, and no Evil option, each one easily identifiable (For an Evil character; reverse the choices for a Good playthrough)
A fairly rare case.

ME II managed to involve me in the decisions I took once, when I refused to stab the mechanic repairing the gunship during the Archangel mission, and Garrus lost half his face as a result. Then I reloaded, and realized that his jaw still flew to the other end of the room, and the only difference was the size of the shield bar on the gunship. Instant gratification, short term advantage without drawbacks, meaningless choice in the long run.

>>53212579
Living

>>53213537
>It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together.

People have argued about the nature of the world forever. We're not gonna reach a consensus about a galaxy that adds some vague force on top of it.

>>53214633
Okay. But do you think the darkside is natural in the living force

>>53205427
>Get white/black world as a canvas
>Make KotOR 2
Nah to hell with the writer. The story was interesting, but not for Star Wars.

>>53205513
Kotor 2 is one of my favorite games and kreia is one of my favorite characters in all of fiction, and I don't even like star wars

>>53211135
I actually use similar interpretation of the Force for RPG games.

Jedi lean on the Force and listen to it. And it helps them. That's why they can use some powers that human/alien brain can't use on its own (like healing). That's also why some of them constantly second guess themselves and chicken out of action - Force may not like it.

Sith on the other hand teat the Force as a blunt instrument using emotions as a way to bend more of it to some immediate use. Their techniques are either pretty crude or need a lot of training and learning, much more than Jedi powers of comparable complexity. That's why there is such a divide between young dark siders and those who stand at the top with many powers completely out of reach of rookies. They don't even know how to attempt them.

>>53205427
Great post OP, I'm very impressed by your intellect

>>53215053
So the force is a roastie?

>>53214862
Probably?
Dark side is all about letting your emotions run unchained.
Without emotions living beings wouldn't really be living beings (heck, even the droids have those in SW, and they aren't Force-sensitive apart from Skippy).
It's like fire, use it responsibly and it's neat, use it too much and you burn yourself and everything around.
A lot of SW is about how power corrupts even regular people, like Tarkin, C3P0 (he send all those ewooks to death, man), the nemodians or the senators, it's no surprise Force users that aren't paragons of self-restraint get drunk on it and fall to the dark side.

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>Darkside is weaker than the light.
>Sith manage to holocaust the Jedi order
Something doesn't add up

>>53215674
They had to rely on smarts instead of raw force. it adds up just fine.

>>53215674
Did you not notice the part where the holocausting was done without actively waving a force dick around?

>>53215687
>>53215718
So, basically, what you are saying is Jedi Order was full of cosmic level retards incapable of even finding their own ass?

The force is a blight that fills the galaxy with needless strife. Truly to sever the universe from it would be a blessing.

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>>53215767
That part should be obvious for anyone who watched prequels.

>>53205832

>Implying Lucas actually did any research

Face it, the man's a hack who lucked out.

>>53215687
Which is why I always found disappointing how they made Palpatine a super powerful sith lord. I would have preferred him to be a politician before all, succeeding with politic what the sith of old failed with the Force and... well force.
Still sith lord, don't get me wrong, but not an exceptionally strong one.

>>53215909
To be fair, he picked up a pretty neat trick from anakin

>>53215909
Him using the force was more rudimentary than anything

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>>53215718
Darth sidious vs mace windu?
Darth sidious vs Yoda?

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>>53216003
Clone trooper vs [all the other fucking jedi]?

>>53216003
He got his dick kicked in by Windu when he showed up, though it may have been on purpose to appeal to Anakin. Yoda only showed up when Palpatine had basically already won.

>>53216065
Darth vader vs Younglings?

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>>53205513
Your first mistake was going on /v/

>>53216088
>There is an alternative universe where the younglings won.

>>53215933
please explain
I think he would be killed by Mace if he didn't use force lighting. And previously, I doubt he used his lightning saber without the force when 3 jedi came to arrest him.

>>53216230
His autistic sreeching is not a force power anon

>>53215848
But how?

Wait a minute. If everything is connected to the Force, with each person being affected in a way by its flow, does that mean that great shifts in it (horrendous genocides, star system-wide parties, etc) could affect an average person's behaviour, if only slightly?

>>53216419
Force wound

>>53216003
Has he even lost a duel?

>>53205427
>>>/v/

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Was HE right, /tg/?

>>53216248
There's a force power called Force Scream, so autistic screeching could be a force power.

>>53205427

What's exactly isn stopping the red lightsaber dude from chopping the blue lightsaber dude in half?

>>53216757
Timing of his swing, looks like she's about to attack and he's guarding it

Avellone is a really fucking good writer when he isn't doing the "single character is a mouth piece about his opinions on the setting" bullshit. I hear one of the New Vegas DLCs also has this problem.

>>53216641
He should've just join Mandalore and kill every jedi

>>53216871
Kreia is the sith lord of BETRAYAL, is the final antagonist, has been called out on her bullshit by almost everyone in the game, is bitter as hell when she isn't pissed off, and lies and manipulates people constantly. It befuddles me that some people would take anything she says as the objective truth, even when she means it.
Avellone used her to explore the nature of the Force, sure. But I don't think he would be stupid enough to try to convey his own message directly through the point of view of such a despicable character.

>>53205427
The problem isn't KotOR2 as much as it is that Star Wars is much narrower than it at first appears and that Avalon didn't realize it. You'd think that a setting that spans an entire galaxy and includes everything from space magic and mystic knights to smugglers and crime lords would be a pretty diverse setting where you could tell pretty much any kind of story. It isn't though. Star Wars a setting that works for exactly one kind of story. This is why every story in the EU that attempted something new came off as absolutely retarded and unfaithful, while the stories that copied everything from the OT felt faithful, sure, but also came off as soulless and unimaginative.

As a stand alone game and story KotOR2 is fine -- maybe even great. As a Star Wars game, however, it's crap.

>>53212026
KotOR II had such great dialogue...

My favorite is actually the argument you can get into with Atris over the Exile's decision to go fight in the Mandalorian War. That argument is basically just a giant loop that you can repeat through over and over again, but because it's so engaging and so long you won't even notice it the first or second time you do. Plus, Obsidian has a choice for, like, every possible angle you want that argument to take, and getting into that argument with Atris will probably be the moment that defines you as a character.

My favorite way to play the Exile is as someone who's exhausted both physically and emotionally, but still a fundamentally good person who tries to do good in the Galaxy because she genuinely believes it's the right thing to do, and who also believes with absolute conviction that fighting in the Mandalorian Wars was the right thing to do and the Jedi Council ultimately created a self-fulfilling prophecy by staying out of the war and thereby ensuring that the Jedi who fought in it didn't have the benefit from older, experienced Jedi to help them through the hard times, and so those Jedi fell and became Sith. Or in the case of the Exile, burned out.

>>53212235
As >>53212285 said. Also remember that there are two people you can trust: the man on the couch and the lone wolf. Everyone else...be wary.

>>53212639
That's not why I do good in KotOR.

I do good in KotOR because the one time I decided I was going to do an evil playthrough, in the first one, I got about as far as those assholes who were tormenting a helpless old Ithorian and just couldn't stand to not get them to stop.

>>53212639
>There is no point in giving a paragon answer in a renegade run, and vice versa.
There is if you don't feel like roleplaying an insane Shepard. There are several times in the first Mass Effect at least where going full renegade will have you agreeing with people and suddenly telling them that they're stupid for thinking the same things as you.

My favorite has to be the reporter who asks you a whole bunch of inappropriate questions which you answer no problem and then when she asks you her only sensible question the renegade option is to punch her in the face.

>>53212639
I do it sometimes, when i feel it would bve appropriate

In Mass Effect 2, i didn't have any problem in stabbing the Batarian technician in the back, despite doing a paragon run, in the first, I always shot the guy who did experiments on the devourers, and always killed the guy in the cantina in one of the first missions
In the Third, despite running a full paragon game, i destroyed the Reapers (and the Geth with them) because it was the most sensible thing to do

In Kotor 1 and 2 i never really stray too much one way or the other. Probably the worst thing i did in the first was challenging Bendak Starkiller in the Taris cantina, and in the 2nd i don't remember ever doing anything evil. It wasn't, you know, evil that made sense

>>53218495
>My favorite way to play the Exile is as someone who's exhausted both physically and emotionally, but still a fundamentally good person who tries to do good in the Galaxy because she genuinely believes it's the right thing to do, and who also believes with absolute conviction that fighting in the Mandalorian Wars was the right thing to do and the Jedi Council ultimately created a self-fulfilling prophecy by staying out of the war and thereby ensuring that the Jedi who fought in it didn't have the benefit from older, experienced Jedi to help them through the hard times, and so those Jedi fell and became Sith. Or in the case of the Exile, burned out.

This. So much this. It also nice that some responses that you can chose show how Exile is frustrated that jedi just don't understand what he is trying to say to them. Or outright dismiss it.

>>53212235
>13
For added joy try playing as Malkavian. Then pay attention to how well the game skullfucks your sense of normal logic.

And seriously don't open it. Nothing good will ever come of that.

>>53217171
If she's such an experienced liar, it's no surprise that she's able to fool people by telling them what they want to hear.

>>53206480
Kotor II doesn't contradict that. It just means that the surviving Jedi have fallen to the dark side too, without knowing it, and that's why they attack you on Dantooine. They sought balance, but ended up going too far in one direction and started attacking an innocent Jedi Jesus. Then the end game has you reject Kreia's more Sithish ideas and go on to build a better, more resilient Jedi Order.

>>53210968
Removing the force wouldn't havekilled them, the exilesurvived it, its just they were unable or unwilling to let goof the force,prefering to die than give it up

>>53205427
It's because Star Wars, while being pretty great, does attract some spergs who chimp out whenever you dare to suggest moral ambiguity or merit to both the hero-side and villain-side, and it's nowhere more apparent than in the force.

>hey what if the force isnt good or evil and the jedi and sith both have merits and flaws
>wha wha WHAAAAT NO THEY DONT JEDI GOOD SITH EVIL ITS A SPACE OPERA GO AWAY ITS A SPACE OPERA!!!!!

>>53206480
>>53206506
>>53206564
This is what I'm talking about here. I don't know what it is that makes people so fragile that they must with all their willpower refuse to accept any notion that MAYBE the dark side and Sith aren't objectively evil. They throw a tantrum and start trying to force objective morality into Star Wars because SPACE OPERA!!!!!! when they don't even know what a space opera is.

>>53206566

All light = unbalanced.
All dark = unbalanced.
Mix of light and dark = balanced.

This will never stop being true, no matter what you pull out of your ass to fit the nonexistent objective morality non-argument nonsense.

>>53219543
>MAYBE the dark side and Sith aren't objectively evil
Except that the people that decide what is and isn't true have literally said that yes, they are.

>>53219580
The people that decide it are a bunch of fuckwits who don't know the setting, and George Lucas is among them. Let's not forget he said Greedo shot at Han first, which is objectively wrong, so no, I'm not gonna base my views of a world on what someone else says if what someone else says is blitheringly stupid.

Reading that thread, the difference between both sides seems minimal.

If you think that the light side is balanced (or that there is no light side at all because the dark side is nothing more than a corruption of the Force), it means every time a jedi fucks up, it's because he was influenced by the dark side in some way.
The result isn't different from a situation where both sides coexist, and extremes on every side fuck it up.

>>53219679
Nobody cares about your headcanon in this thread.

>>53205427
>a fine universe with good amount of handcrafted lore

Let me stop you right there.

Remember that time a bunch of fucking nerds spent 15 years talking, flogging and nitpicking a game discussing it to death when the writer spent at most 6 months writing it?

>>53219705
and nobody cares about yours, which is now officially non-canon

>>53220088
not an argument

I don't normally say this because it's sort of a non-argument, but you people care way too much about the lore of a space samurai setting.
Darth Vader wasn't meant to have any role beyond the first movie until he was shown to be popular.
There is no deepest lore, the media is meant to appeal to possible viewers. If you want to know why Rey was portrayed the way she was and why Rogue One was the way it was, that's why.
It's there to make money.

>>53220233
>Don't get involved with or care or pay attention to anything at all its all worthless or pointless.
The Fedora Edgy Knife board is thataway
---bants

>>53219794
That must mean it's pretty good then.

>>53220298
He's not wrong though. Nerds are the worst.

>>53220418
>Nerds talking about sci fi, fantasy,etc
>Rapists, Murders, Gangsters,etc
Yes nerds are the worst totally

>>53220298
Look, just because it's there to make money doesn't mean it's not good. In fact, some of the best things in the world were made to make money, and became popular because they were good.
But arguing over the moral ambiguity of the Force is for fucking pedants. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. They're dudes fighting with laser swords in starships because it looks cool and everyone wants to be a space paladin/blackguard.
>>53220475
Are you actually autistic? You know what he meant, or apparently not.

>>53220521
You said the were the worst you didn't clarify - I am not a mind reader and calling someone autistic isn't a really good point is it,if they say yes then what? You win a point?

>>53220521
Its pointless right but people can still do it right so it doesn't matter does it as long as no one gets hurt?
If you dontlike the discussiondont get involved

>>53220521
how do you know if wasn't being sarcastic?
Signs of Autism
>Inability to detect sarcasm
Get yourselfchecked out Anon
A Test could save your life and your loved ones years of pain and suffering

>>53220559
>>53220588
>>53220695
Right, I almost forgot which board I was on.
I'll see myself out for the sake of my sanity.

>>53220475
You know, at least the latter groups don't waste everyone's time by having endless discussions about pointless and stupid subjects.

>>53219690
Wrong

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>>53219496
I think the issue is that people fail to draw an important distinction: the "light" side of the Force is good, but that doesn't mean the Jedi who follow it are. The Jedi are, ultimately, people, with normal foibles and flaws. Even Yoda was utterly convinced that Vader was beyond saving and the only way Luke could save the Galaxy was by driving a lightsaber through him and the Emperor.

Similarly, the Dark Side is an evil, pervasive, corrupting force...but the people who use it, even the Sith, are still ultimately people who are trying to use the Force in the way they personally have decided is most beneficial, and don't want to be called "evil" just because of their life choices which have generally benefited them (to their worldview). Of course, as it corrupts them you do eventually get UNLIMITED POWAH types, but most low-level Sith and other Dark Side users just genuinely think they're doing good.

The Force is good, the Dark Side is evil, but people are just people.

>>53219543
>This will never stop being true

Sure, but that's not how it actually is.

The Force = balance
The Dark Side = inbalance.

The Dark Side is a misnomer since it's not actually referring to a "side" of the Force, it's referring to a corruption that exists within it. Religions are like that sometimes - vague and murky. But that is absolutely the intent.

>>53219679
>Let's not forget he said Greedo shot at Han first

He only did that to make sure that when Star Wars was re-released it kept its PG rating. Lucas himself owns and has been seen to wear a "Han shot first" T-shirt.

>>53210058
No matter how many times I hear this. The jedi masters were right in their judgment

>>53222607
Jedi were wrong

>>53206592
Dumb lucas poster

>>53205427

Avellone is a pseudo-intellectual masturbator who thinks he's being DEEP and PROFOUND over his inane analyses of simple entertainment media. Every single one of his self-insert characters was a blabbermouth that pontificated about crap you didn't really care about:

Ravel
>bluh bluh belief is important
Kreia
>muh no moral absolutes also dicks
Ulysses
>i was a bitchy bitch who wasn't gud enuff
Weeping Mother
>muh children muh babies

Avellone should stick to writing the world but NOT characters.

>>53220233
>Darth Vader wasn't meant to have any role beyond the first movie until he was shown to be popular.
>literally says "he betrayed and murdered your father" in the first movie
>literally gets """Killed""" by a different protagonist and grants no resolution after also killing main protagonist's mentor
You are a special kind of illiterate motherfucker.

>>53219463
Exactly. That's what she goes on the whole game talking about- The Jedi Masters are blind, dumb, afraid and conceited. The protagonist is stronger for being able to let go of the force. Had they had their way, there would have been nothing left in the galaxy that could have stopped Nihilus.

>>53206480
This.

The "dark and light must be equal" interpretation is wrong. It's not an alternative theory, it's not another way of thinking about it, the creators have repeatedly said it's wrong. It's fanon. It's headcanon. If that's what you prefer to believe, fine, like any media or art it's what you take from it that matters, but don't pretend it's true just because you prefer it to be.

>>53219543
see >>53225739

>>53210806

god damn it anon.

Well if I were in your place I would have called me out too.

>>53211204

"Good vs Evil" isn't a philosophy, it's a theme, you retard.

>>53211836

Nope, the "light side" is just a synonym for "the force", They mean the exact same thing and they are the exact same thing. The dark side is an impurity that unbalances the force.

And besides, the idea that the galaxy is in an eternal war between light and dark is demonstrably fucked by the setting because everytime the Jedi are in power they're in power for literally thousands of years while the Sith can only ever hold the Galaxy for a couple of decades at most. It's obvious to anyone with critical thinking that the dark side philosophy is just completely unsustainable.

>>53212510
No, they were too busy frothing at the eyes about Light/Dark nitpicky bullshit to give a fuck about the characters' story.

>>53225835
The idea that good can be objectively quantified and measured is philosophy. The idea that evil is an objectively provable and absolute thing and that no acts of evil can ever be done for good is a philosophy. It's a fucking stupid philosophy, but it is one.

>>53220233
>Darth Vader wasn't meant to have any role beyond the first movie

Then why did he survive the end of the first movie? Like, his TIE fighter flies off into space and Vader makes a get away, able to fight again another day. And this was filmed before Episode IV was released, obviously.

Your logic doesn't seem to work.

>>53225862
>It's obvious to anyone with critical thinking

Like Darth Bane, for example...

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>>53225862
Darth Bane Disagrees.
He rightfully pointed out that only Jedi Have ever made the claim that the Light is stronger than the Darkside

>>53209332
Except being a finished game.

>>53226441
Wasn't that not actually Darth Bane?

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Can we all agree that the Brotherhood of Darkness was the strongest Sith organization besides the rule of two? If it weren't for Bane they could have bested the Jedi

>>53205427
Is stories Grey is a good thing, great even. It can make for a complex and interesting world. But so can Black and White, true Black and White can often come across as 'simplistic', but it can be just as engaging as Grey if you let it.

The problem with Kotor 2 is that it takes a Black and White setting, a B&W setting that WORKS, and tries to say "that's stupid, have some Grey, because everything else is childish".

It's made worse by people like yourself who harp on about how it's "the best thing in star wars" and "it throws out all of that childish good and evil crap".

Maybe if you don't like Black and White settings, don't get into a setting that has been Black and White from the outset.

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>the Light Side is just the Force
>it's canon that the Dark Side is just corruption
>pure Light Side means the Force is in balance
It's like you queers haven't heard of Bendu. He completely BTFO you.

>>53226525
Jedi ain't infallible brah

>>53226498
Didn't they accidently go full retard with the Force and blow themselves up?

>>53226571
Course they aren't, that doesn't mean the setting is not innately a Black and White setting.

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Leave you friends to torture and perhaps death you must

Irredeemable your father is. Kill him you must

>>53226680
>Leave you friends to torture and perhaps death you must
>Luke gets his hand cut off for disobeying, and only doesn't die, thus eliminating all hope, due to sheer luck

>Irredeemable your father is. Kill him you must
This was wrong, though it did take Luke being tortured right in front of him for him to change.

>>53226525
>"that's stupid, have some Grey, because everything else is childish".

No, it has one old woman, the Sith Lord of Betrayal, say that. But it's entirely possible to play a thoroughly Good character the entire way through and do just fine.

KREIA LIES.

Jesus Christ, how do people not know this.

- Kreia lies
- Don't open it
- Many things can change the nature of a man

>>53226739
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VvS5MLnG0Y

>>53226525
only a sith believes in absolutes

>>53226441
Light is stronger than the Dark because Light feeds on life while the Dark feeds on death. As a result a happy, prosperous, Light-dominant republic is a sustainable and in fact mostly self-sustaining power source while a genocidal, strife-ridden, Dark-dominant empire will either go down in rebellion or run out of external victims and start cannibalizing itself, for example by blowing up Alderaan. And if there's any external enemies, Light has motivated, disciplined soldiers to call upon while the disorganized mess that passes as an army for the Dark gets walked over by smugglers and farmhands, or even teddy bears armed with stone axes.

Bane's Rule of Two was not successful because it reduced infighting, it was successful because it kept the Sith in hiding so they could feed on Light's detritus. When they actually came out, they managed to kill the Republic in its moment of weakness, but all that got them was a few decades of feeding on the corpse before the Light struck back, obliterated them, and went on to establish a new one.

Light is not only stronger, but at least 1.5 orders of magnitude more so. Star Wars stories simply tend to be set in those very few periods where lightsaber duels are more common than diplomacy.

>>53226752
I don't know what it is you want me to take away from this video, seeing as nothing in it invalidates the basic fact that Kreia lies.

>>53205427
She wasn't even attacking star wars all the time. It was very meta about game shit room. At one point she called me out for experience farming quests from people. This experience could have been valuable for the person it was meant for. For someone of your stature, this was nothing.

>>53227025
Then can you explain why the Sith were able to beat the Jedi in Kotor 1 and 2?

>>53226498
bane bested the jedi though with the rule of two. palpatine murdered the entire jedi order save for few stragglers and reshaped the galaxy. yea the jedi eventually came back and beat palpatine but bane and revan proved that sith work better as two subtly moving shit around as they see fit. brotherhood of darkness was a bunch of edgelords who thought bombed themselves because bane told their leader about a big dark side weapon that they knew nothing about but trusted him since he manipulated their leader

>>53227077
In Kotor 1 they had the star forge which literally made weapons and equipment out of nothing

And they had the military foundations laid by Revan, a JEDI general

>>53205580
This. Grey jedi are shit, of course, but there are many worse problems.

>>53205875
I think they made a mistake in having too many reliable NPCs telling you not to open it. I got that shit on the first playthrough because, as far as I was concerned, there was no way that particular NPC would even be able to lie to me.

>>53206480
>the light side is objectively natural
What? That doesn't make any sense. Objectively good is one thing, but how can something be objectively natural when you have to struggle like a motherfucker to stick with it, when following your natural emotions leads you down the dark side?

>>53227302
> when following your natural emotions leads you down the dark side?

Here's the thing: it doesn't. Obi-wan hardly comes across as an unemotive robot, nor did Qui-gon.

The problem the Sith face is that they allow themselves to be ruled by their emotions and vices. That's not good for anyone, Force user or no.

>>53207534
>>53207589
>>53208058

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztUIo3andAk

>>53220298
Just don't get so involved in properties that were created solely as a money making venture and which have no real artistic merit to them. The Original Trilogy were good movies, sure, but that's it. Let it go, the series hasn't been good since the 80s.

>>53205604
Wasn't one of them a failed attempt to make a Force Killer that was less a person then a walking black hole and the other one so cut up and fucked up and ruined he was a dead body holding himself together on nothing but willpower and hate?

>>53205427
>>53227074

She calls you out for helping people by taking away challenges they'd face that might make them stronger. It's a weird Nietzche bit of philosophy, the idea that suffering makes a person more powerful.

It's funny because game wise, this is exactly how XP works, but it's a hollow bit of shitty philosophy and part of why she's ruined one of the first people she tried this with. In the story she's wrong about that.

Overcoming challenges can make a person stronger but suffering for it's own sake does nothing but make a person weaker. She also explicitly doesn't understand that trust and cooperation is a source of power, considering such relationships parasitic.

>>53227777
>She also explicitly doesn't understand that trust and cooperation is a source of power, considering such relationships parasitic.
She does though. She just doesn't want you to rely on them as a crutch.

>>53228372

> She just doesn't want you to rely on them as a crutch.

She wants to convince you to see things her way.
Defeating enemies by accepting their way was wrong and hers is right instead of simply killing them is one of the things she never shuts up about.
Going full evil master is out of the question, so you get all the grey teachings.

Kreia lies, deceives and corrupts.

And it's not just words.
One of the very first things Atton mentions about her is that it takes some serious hard living to get as those creases.
Later on she tells you there are techniques to alter or hide ones appearance and basically admits she's using them on you.

She's a manipulative witch in every facet of her character from the beginning.
There's literally no reason to trust anything she says or does.

>>53225835
>what is Manichaeism

>>53225261
>he doesn't use characters to built the world.
What a faggot you are.

>>53228372
Have you seen how she controls your companions? She doesn't seduce them, doesn't make them trust her. She manipulates and make them bow by force and fear until they comply.

Fuck your stupid morality arguments, Darth Nihilus was the best character.
I just love the concept of a character with a supernatural hunger, force drain is my favourite power and I loved building my own drain build Jedi and going up against Nihilus as Black Hole vs Black Hole. It wasn't optimised but damn it was fun.
I wish there were ways to play as a character with a similar concept in other traditional games without being a lich or a vampire, though I like those too.

>>53226384
>What is setting up sequel hooks

Even if you can't say with 100% certainty that you're making more, a smart person leaves some loose ends so you have something to work with in the future if needed.

>>53229258
Also, so you can sell toys that the kiddies will buy to have 'Darth Vader returns' battles with.

Top tier text+pics let's play of the game, with tons of explanations:
https://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/

It's interesting even if you've replayed it half a dozen times.

>>53229087
Darth Nihilus was introduced too late for its role in the plot. Even with Visas as his mouthpiece, we don't see him in the first part of the game.
Compared to Scion, he wasn't well served by the scenario.
Top tier design and powerset, though. Same for his army of ghouls and derelict ships.

>>53227077
>Then can you explain why the Sith were able to beat the Jedi in Kotor 1 and 2?

Much like with palpatine, most of the actual gruntwork behind the state of the galaxy in Kotor1 was done with materiel, not sith directly.

Kotor2 I'm a bit fuzzier on the details of, but IIRC it was a case of having issues rebuilding after the fuckery of kotor1 combined with being in a worse state of 'stop having fun' stagnancy than we saw in the prequels.

Also just because the dark side as a general concept isn't stronger than the light doesn't mean that individuals/groups can't be stronger than one another. Leaving aside the whole matter of his actual boss fight being a chucklefest, Nihilus is a scaryass motherfucker. Plus didn't kreia have that assassin academy thing tucked away on malachor? A force sensitive teaching fuckers how to assassinate force sensitives through all their force tricks is a stellar bit of unfairness.

>>53220695
>Suicide could save his loved ones years of suffering becuase of his retardation.
>Implying subhumans have loved ones.

>"You may take one of the ships that orbit Malachor and depart this place. Or you may remain here on Malachor, and wait for the others, those touched by the Force, who will come in time. Or you may return to your exile, where your presence will no longer affect the actions of others."

Which choice was the good ending?

>>53226567
Bendu's idea of balance was to stay the fuck away from every conflict. The moment conflict comes to his doorstep, he goes full retard with the dark side.

>>53206592
The destruction of the Sith brought balance, because Vader has already destroyed the fucking Jedi.

>>53229947
The destruction of the Jedi had nothing to do with balance.

Word of God has always been that balance was restored when Anakin Skywalker gave up the persona of Darth Vader, returned to the light, and cast Palpatine down into the pit, thus ending the Sith.

The numbers theory (that 2 Jedi and 2 Sith = balance) is outright shown to be false even within the prequels.

>>53229947
But Luke tho.

>>53219543
>All light = unbalanced.
>All dark = unbalanced.
>Mix of light and dark = balanced.
>This will never stop being true, no matter what you pull out of your ass to fit the nonexistent objective morality non-argument nonsense.
Read some fucking Aristotle. The Golden mean is a staple of western philosophy. What is good is found in between what is "bad."
Evil is working only in the extremes, good is finding the balance.

>>53229989
Luke is a gray Jedi

>>53230584
If by "gray Jedi" you mean, Jedi who doesn't follow the rules of the old order, sure. He's not a dude who goes around using the dark side and saying it's a-okay.

>>53230610
Those are the worst kind of Jedi disobeying the wisdom of the council. Wouldn't surprise me if they were sith

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Vergere said it best.

> "A lightsaber is an interesting weapon. A blade unique in the history of warfare. A paradox, not unlike the Jedi who wield it: those peaceful warriors, who kill in the service of life. Have you ever noticed? The blade is round. It has no edge. But it is a lightsaber—which means it is nothing but edge. There is no part of this blade that does not cut. Curious, yes? Symbolic, one might say."

>Jacen: "Stay away from me, Vergere. I mean it."
>Vergere: "I believe you. But what matters your meaning? How will you prevent me? Will you slay? Will you maim? Cripple your friend Vergere? No? Break a bone, then—above the wrist, if you don't mind. It should heal cleanly enough to be a merely temporary inconvenience."
>Jacen: "Vergere—"
>Vergere: "Inflict pain. Twist my elbow. Pluck feathers from my crest. Otherwise, sit down and show me your ribs. Orders not backed by force are only suggestions, Jacen Solo."

>Vergere: "Light and dark are no more than nomenclature: words that describe how little we understand. What you call the dark side is the raw, unrestrained Force itself: you call the dark side what you find when you give yourself over wholly to the Force. To be a Jedi is to control your passion…but Jedi control limits your power. Greatness—true greatness of any kind—requires the surrender of control. Passion that is guided, not walled away. Leave your limits behind."
>Jacen: "But—but the dark side—"
>Vergere: "If your surrender leads to slaughter, that is not because the Force has darkness in it. It is because you do."
>Jacen: "Me? No—no, you don't understand—the dark side is, it's, it's, don't you see it? It's the dark side. The dark side…"
>Vergere: "The only dark side you need fear, Jacen Solo, is the one in your own heart."

>>53230640
What a wise master.

>>53230728

I just like the last part because it effectively tells people to own up for the shit they do, not blame some kind of mystical energy for it.

>>53229325
Love that LP.

>>53230179
You can't redfine a setting because you are too stupid to read and understand what light and dark is. Light is the golden mean balance, etc. Dark would be taking healthy tastes to excess for aristotle.

>>53230640
Is Jacen always a stuttering autist?

>>53230788
Problem is it goes against the black and white view of the Force.

>>53231002
>people within a universe aren't allowed to have opinions that don't match how the metaphysics work

>>53230988

Nah, it's just these circumstances. Not only has he been a prisoner of the Vong for a while now, but he's also exhausted to the bone.

>>53231002
But that's dumb, so it's not really a problem.

>>53227324
Given that standard, the dark side is natural (instinct and base behavior) while the light is a byproduct of sapience (logic and reason).

>>53227324
Qui-gon was a maverick, loose-cannon exception. Obi-wan was his star pupil.

>>53231529
Obi-wan was his only pupil

>>53230988
Yeah. He gets worse when he becomes a Sith

>>53220475
>Rapists, Murders, Gangsters,etc
At least you know where you stand with these guys