"Yes, I am taking your freedom, and for good reason. Look

>>53184239
>At what point does the "evil empire" simply become "The empire"?
When the player characters decide to work for them

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>>53184239
When does the evil empire become the empire?
When the DM wants to insert their own personal political ideals

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>>53184239
>your children, their children, and their children's children's children will thank me for it
this bothered me for some reason

>>53184239
never, empire is always bad, kingdom is always good

>>53184239
>Are most people better off having their lives controlled if they are protected from harm and comfortable when they would normally starve due to thei own ?
This is subjective. Some people in colonial cultures believed it was their duty to care for the "lesser" races.

Ultimately it depends. Do you value self determination and free will? Do you think you should be the sole determinant in the outcome of your life, for better or worse? Or would you rather be a coddled child, not trusted to wipe its own ass without the help of your benevolent overlords? Everyone will think differently on this issue, personally, I'd rather have the freedom to choose, and would recognize anything that threatens that as an attack on me, because I believe a man is the sum of his actions, and if he doesn't have the freedom to choose, hes little more than well treated cattle.

>>53184239
>fantasy Dr. Doom
good choice

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>>53184239

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>>53184239

>>53184239
Don't deny it OP, you just want to play your Not!Dr.Doom GMPC.

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>>53184376

>>53184239
Yes, going full Brave New World on people still makes you the fucking bad guy.

>>hey guys, I vote we elect VOTINCLEX, VOICE OF HUNGER as our new leader. His campaign statement of "UNTIL WE SHED THE CURSE OF SENTIENCE, WE MUST ENDURE IT'S GROTESQUE HANDIWORK. ALL HAIL PHYREXIA" really resonated with me.

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>>53184239
Just listen to the Paladin.

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>>53184481
>hey guys, I vote we elect VOTINCLEX, VOICE OF HUNGER as our new leader. His campaign statement of "UNTIL WE SHED THE CURSE OF SENTIENCE, WE MUST ENDURE IT'S GROTESQUE HANDIWORK. ALL HAIL PHYREXIA" really resonated with me.

>>53184465
No joke though, she was actually doing this for a good cause.
Sure it was a little strict, but the entire human race was going to be devoured by parasites and she was building an army to stop them.

>>53184442
>Tries to bring civilization to unclothed barbarians
>They stab you in the dick
You see, this is why its just better that we kill your warriors from a distance and send your children to re-education schools so that they may become productive citizens of the empire.

If it makes you feel better, less of them will die by mountain lion and illness under our care

>>53184526
You mean like in Fable 3, where your character's douchebag brother was instating a militarized Industrial Complex on the kingdom so that it would be able to stand up to the coming Darkness, and probably would have restored things afterwards if you didn't come along and fuck things up?

>>53184239
>insert overlong speech about the importance of free will

It's a fucking trope by this point. We just can't have 'evil' anymore.

>>53184239
"You really think it's a good idea to put the fate of the entire world into a fallible being such as yourself, who even if you weren't it could be easily abused by someone who came after or that was better than you?"

>>53184376
What if, just hear me out.
What if they wish to bring sanitation, wells, roads, and education to your province, in exchange for a 10-20% tithe of people and produce?
The tithe will be lessened the less garrison is needed to keep the peace.

Of course anyone who resists initially must be promptly put down, and your village will have to pay the legion back with interest in conscripts for any of our own who fell in battle. Gotta keep those numbers up.

>>53184576
You mean Cliché, right?

Everything is overdone.
Everything has already been done.
Even your special snowflake.
It's all about the execution at this point.

>>53184576
>brain hurty when anyting other dan GUD n' EVUL get into da setting!
>Yous jus tryan to confuse me!
thats you

>>53184576
fuckers like you will bitch and moan if the setting is too simplistic as well
>Your evil faction is just an orc/zerg/undead clone
>lel so stupid your evil faction is just evil for the sake of evil
>grimdark, why they no have reason to be evil?
>YOU MADE IT TOO COMPLICATED WHY CAN'T WE JUST HAVE GOOD AND EVIL ANYMORE?!

>>53184627
This anon gets it

>>53184595
OP here, taking this from the "Immortals" setting
The Faceless Emperor probably doesn't consider himself "fallible" considering how most people including himself believes him to be a living god.
2000 years old and going strong, hard to doubt.

>>53184376
>Everyone will think differently on this issue, personally, I'd rather have the freedom to choose, and would recognize anything that threatens that as an attack on me, because I believe a man is the sum of his actions, and if he doesn't have the freedom to choose, hes little more than well treated cattle.

This.
Well spoken.

>>53184729
>>53184376
>hes little more than well treated cattle
Sadly there are a lot of people that wouldn't be too angry about that, look at the liberal communists in 'murrica

>>53184716
So he isn't fallible? I would ask him then what standards he use to define himself as perfect. Then I would ask if he is perfect then how come he haven't won yet.

>>53184837
>So he isn't fallible?
Yes he is fallible, extremely intelligent and experienced, but the empire has had a few close calls to complete destruction under his rule, that being said it also grew quite large.

>what standards
Probably considers himself superior to all mortals due to experience, and superior to other immortals due to a healthy dose of ego centrism and the fact his empire is tied for first place in terms of population and landmass

>Why hasn't he won yet?
Combination of other nations working in conjunction to cripple the empire's expansion and an army of genetically engineered coked out berserkers that worship fire and gorillas

>>53184907
So since he isn't infallible, that's the argument I would take him down.

He would probably go 'STFU I'm perfect', then battle would commence. But after beating him I would say "See? If you are perfect then why did you lose?" Then watch as he had a mental breakdown.

>>53184943
Assuming you can get to him
Kind of in the middle of a massive fortified tower, surrounded by royal guards, in the middle of his empire.
There are people hunting him and the others you see, and there are other immortals that would be more than happy to see him in chains.

Sullying his hands with personal combat isn't something he would do unless backed into a corner

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>>53184239
hello goetia

>>53185025
Well, I take that if he is giving me the speech we are already at the final battle.

Maybe I will enjoy seeing him go full Sephiroth.

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>>53184239
Anyone actually willing to talk about taking away freedom as a good thing has dived pretty far into tyranny and stupidity. I mean that's just bad branding.

When you take over a "free" country, you don't tell them you're taking their freedom, you tell them they'd be more free under your autocracy then under the previous democracy, since liberty =/= democracy. A technically true statement.

If he was the BBEG, I'd probably just murderstomp him and take over myself just out of disgust at such shoddy marketing. Its just bad craftsmanship.

>>53184376
No man is an island; he is not only a sum of what he does, but the sum of his use to others.

>>53184376
Very inspiring, but you're saying nothing at all until you start laying out exactly what freedoms you consider inalienable and what sort of laws you regard as infringing your free will. I mean, is that even possible without some sort of government mandated mind control?

>>53184756
>liberal communists
uh-huh.

>>53185051
>Anyone actually willing to talk about taking away freedom as a good thing
But it is a good thing. The enlightenment was a terrible mistake.

>>53184239
>Does the BBEG have a point if he's legitimately making life better for the average person?
Yes. However, that alone doesn't mean he's right: determining that would require a more thorough examination of the circumstances.

>>53184239
>They won't thank you for it, you fool. You won't live to see the mockery your successors make of your plan. I have no doubt your goals are noble, but you are as mortal as any of us. Even if you do not age, one day you will meet your match and be slain, or you will fall ill, or some great storm will cast you onto the wind and smash the walls of your castle.

>Once you die, everything you plan to put in place will crumble. Your sons will bicker and squabble over which of them my sons will serve. Your weapons will be turned upon each other and bathe the world in fire. Everything you've done up to here will have been for nothing.

>That's the sorry truth of it, you who would be an emperor. No king rules forever. Only Death is eternal.

>>53185051
Well I mean the setting isn't necessarily 20-21st century America, it's possibly that "freedom" isn't the same call to national pride in whatever fantasy nation is under discussion.

It's not so long ago that democracy was a dirty word in europe and america, but now it's code for "on our side".

>>53184562
You mean like in star wares eu where palpatine was militarizing the galaxy to prepare for a seige from the neighboring galaxy that he saw in a vision?

>>53184716
Mistborn had similar setup. Of course, in that case the Lord Ruler actually DID save the world before establishing his empire.

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>>53184329
But not your children's children's children's children's children's children! THEY will think I'm being a total dick right now.

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>>53184329

Happiness, as you're no doubt aware, sometimes skips a generation.

>>53185149
In "Immortals" the Faceless Emps is one of the many forces trying to control the world, and when it comes to aggressive expansionist powers you have a choice between
>Living your life exactly as the empire's standards dictate, right down to how you dress, but you will likely never go hungry
>Living in steampunk communist land where the technocracy dictates your job for the rest of your life
>Having your land overrun with red haired zealots who will likely kill you if you aren't useful genetic stock and build a giant temple over the ashes of your village

Or you could live in one of the many other larger civilizations, or just hope that your little village simply gets overlooked, which happens all the time.

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>>53185176
you cheeky little fucker I actually chuckled at that

>>53185285
The Lord Ruler actually conquered the entire world(or at least, the parts that were left habitable after his brief stint of godhood).

>>53185062
>he is not only a sum of what he does, but the sum of his use to others.
His use to others is demonstrated by his actions.

>>53185067
>Very inspiring, but you're saying nothing at all until you start laying out exactly what freedoms you consider inalienable and what sort of laws you regard as infringing your free will. I mean, is that even possible without some sort of government mandated mind control?
OP only mentioned the antagonists general philosophy, not the characters belief on specific rights so its not possible to argue against his stances. Personally though, I'd consider that negative rights must be assured except when a sound argument can be given as a moral justification for their infringement (e.g. taxes can, in my opinion, be morally justified, with some exceptions).

That being said, its about 5am and I'm going back to sleep soon so I'm not doing an awful lot of thinking at the moment.

>>53185285
>Having your land overrun with red haired zealots who will likely kill you if you aren't useful genetic stock
And...if you are useful genetic stock?

>>53185112
>How pitiful of a man is he who lives in fear of death, he who has so little faith in his will and power than he bows to fate.
>My sons may bicker or squabble, or they may yet see my goals through. I have done and will do everything in my power to ensure that what is right will be done.
>Monuments only crumble and rot if they are not cared for; that is no reason to not build.
>To not take action for fear of failure, whether now or later, whether it be improbable or near certain, is the mark of a coward.

>>53185357
>His use to others is demonstrated by his actions.
His actions may not be his best use.

>>53185405
Breeding chambers at the top of the guilded pyramid
Of course you have to be able to beat 9 out of 10 people in a contest who are literally bred to perform certain tasks.

>>53185449
So.. his appearance? If someones greatest attribute was granted to them at birth, then it speaks volumes to their character.

>>53185083
>He thinks medieval serfs considered themselves slaves

You are adorable.
>>53185121
Not quite. Democracy wasn't always considered a good thing, but freedom almost always was. No one wanted to be a slave or considered a slave.

Remember the heroes, all monarchies, in LoTR call themselves "The Free Peoples of Middle Earth"

There are very few places where you can advertise yourself as someone who takes freedom and market that as a good thing.

When you turn a democracy into a dicatorship, or a monarchy into a new dynasty, you either ignore the question of freedom entirely, or you convince people they'll stay as free/become more free once you're the Emperor.

Its bad marketing to act like that.

>>53185430
>Your arrogance will be your undoing. I can only hope you see that before it is too late.

>>53184239
>Does the BBEG have a point
Yes. Sometimes being evil can help out people. Maybe this is necessary.

That said, he is still being evil and as soon as people are ready to overthrow him, they should.

>>53184481
Hey, better than Trump.

>>53185538
>>>/pol/

>>53185516
>He thinks medieval serfs considered themselves slaves
In OPs case, the citizens of the Empire mostly see nothing wrong with the constant micromanaging of their lives by the local constables. Many of them upon leaving imperial areas find the rest of the world a disorganized chaotic dirty place

>>53185613
I'm not talking about the reality of their situation, I'm talking about how they view themselves and how the villain markets his tyranny.

No tyrant advertises himself as a tyrant.

>>53184239
> "Yes, I am taking your freedom, and for good reason. Look around you, look at the horrors most of your people have to endure day after day, borne of the mistakes you mortals continue to make era after era. Free will is only a gift if one has the strength to use it, to everyone else, it is a rope to hang yourself with. I will take away your freedom, but I give you a better life, and your children, their children, and their children's children's children will thank me for it."
You are taking away the human's innate ability to make a choice. A meaningful choice.
Without the ability to make a choice, humanity is no longer human, and people become nothing more than animals.
The choice defines humanity. Yes, people are bound to make stupid choices that might be self-destructive and even actively malicious. But that's what makes us human.
Without the ability to commit harm, the choice NOT to commit harm despite being capable of it loses its innate worth.
You are robbing people of their humanity and turning them into animals.

>>53185737
That would imply that they were ever anything more than animals. That they were ever anything special.

You will find yourself sorely disappointed.

>>53185771
Are you implying that people are incapable of making a choice? That every single human on earth is incapable of carrying responsibilities of their own choices?
Personally, I choose to believe in humanity.
No matter how self-conflicting and self-destructive it is, it is ultimately our choices that define who we are. What you are proposing is making everyone a philosophical zombie.

>>53185680
The Tallet advertise themselves as bringing peace, safety and order to the world
they are kind of correct

>>53185839
You believe their choices to be special?

Ants practice slavery upon their enemies. Chimpanzees fashion spears and war with their kin. Dolphins use the corpses of their victims as toys. Ravens can judge the worth of those they meet, and bring gifts. Rhesus monkeys sell sexual services to one another in exchange for fruit.

No breed of life is special. No breed is sacred. No breed is any more exalted than any other. All are damned to the long cycle of this world. Time and again, one group or another among the living seeks mastery, divinity, power over all others.

They are greeted instead with death. As the megafauna before you, as the great archosaurs before them, and as all the others who came before them, you will be nothing but dust. Your 'choices' may well have never been made at all.

What you believe in is a lie, fabricated by a creature with enough intelligence to grasp how small it truly is, but without the wisdom to embrace it. You will learn, in time. And in those final moments, you will find peace in acceptance.

>>53185530
>Better to fly next to the sun and burn, rather than wallow in the mud and shadows.

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>>53184239
What? You call me away from my research? For this? You're joking

I couldn't care less if you are in power or not, I just want to make scientific breakthroughs, so leave me alone.

>>53185737
Man as gestalt is more important than man as individual.

>>53185958
>You can't run forever. Surely you see that. What will it take for you to accept that it is not strength that spurs you to keep going, but baseless pride?

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>>53184239
>abandoning freedom because lol quality of life

Looks like someone's in dire need of firebombing

>>53185918
>Your 'choices' may well have never been made at all.
So what? My choices matter to me as an individual. What's is important is that I'm here and now, and I choose to oppose your worldview.
If I robbed you of the choice to guide the society as you see fit, yes, sure, you might've still been happy and satisfied.
But does your satisfaction have inherent worth? Does your life have any inherent worth? Does anyone's? No.

You seem to be unable to grasp a simple truth.
Humans' existence is fleeting, and if nothing in life matters, if nothing has its inherent worth, then we must create it ourselves.
And with what do we create it? That's right, choices.
It is solely by enacting our will unto the others - unto the universe itself - that we define our place in universe.
A certain existence without a doubt has no meaning, because we know its beginning, process and end in their entirety, and so by enacting it we gain no new insight.
An ambigious existence we know nothing about, and by observing it, by participating in it, by defining ourselves in it with our choices, we gain infinitely more than we do by participating in existence without a shadow of a doubt.

>>53186004
Isn't that what US has been doing ever since 9/11?

>>53185974
Not really, no. There is no definite quantity-to-quality transition here.
Treating humanity's existence as a gestalt rather than a sum of individual wills is a mistake.

>>53186100
>We must create it ourselves.

You assume you have that power. Do you honestly believe that?

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>>53186004
>hooray we are free and are in stone age but with guns

>>53186139
I don't know if I have that power. But I do believe in it.
I have supreme faith in it.
I am the knight of faith, and I believe that in this existence and in this life, I shall define my existence with my own power.
I believe precisely because it's absurd. I believe precisely because faith has nothing to do with knowledge. And I believe your endeavour is foolish and I will stand against it.

>>53186004
You;'d firebomb people for choices they freely made? You truly are a 'murican.

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>>53184239
>Free will is only a gift if you have the strength to use it
Then you won't mind me using mine.

>>53184239
This is literally the extreme of platonic utopia and of communism.

Taking away freedom is not only immoral, it shows that the BBEG has nothing but contempt for their fellow man. Any empire built on that will inevitably turn to tyrrany and commit countless atrocitires to adjust the universe to a skewed vision of truth of a single madman.

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BETTER TO REIGN IN HELL THAN SERVE IN HEAVEN

>>53186217
What is this madness?

>>53185977
>Again, only the weak and cowardly restrain themselves for fear of eventual failure.
>What is right is what is right, even should fate steal it away from this land the moment I die; hopefully the system I have put in place with survive and weather the tempests of time
>I may not be able to run forever, but I will damn well try if the alternative is to sit and rot.

>>53186124
Surely you agree that there is a difference between a thousand men with swords, and an army of a thousand men?

A gestalt entity is greater than the sum of its individual components; a nation of a million people is greater than a million people.

>>53184239
>borne of the mistakes you mortals
>the BBEG isn't a human fighter
Trash storyline.

>>53186296
You make the assumption that freedom is good, and that individual is fit to use freedom properly.

Both assumptions are dangerous.

>>53187005
Freedom is good, but only mathematicians have freedom. Without math, there is no freedom.

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>mfw there's a NotRoman evil empire

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>>53184239

>>53187002
>Implying the BBEG isn't the Amir
http://immortalpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Amir

>>53186976
Why are you too weak to accept your place?

>>53187271
Because man is the master of man, man as himself and man as gestalt.

Here's the thing

It's all well and good to wish to want to make everyone's lives better by FORCING them to act a certain way

That kind of stability is incredibly alluring and seductive

But it does. Not. Work.

How do you prevent corruption in your infrastructure? Can you provide plenty for all universally? Can you be everywhere at once and know every thing? Will you live forever, never hesitate, never change your mind?

Only an omnipresent omnipotent all knowing all loving western God could POSSIBLY fulfill all the obligations of universal dictator. Anything less amounts to a jumped up strong man who will spend 90 percent of his time struggling to hold onto power or get things right, until they die at which point things will immediately deviate.

This is avoiding the philosphical observation that without free will we cannot learn, and if successful you will only rule over a world of complacent and stupid cattle, not people. Lessons cannot be learned if mistakes cannot be made. What humanity needs is not a leader, but a mechanism for self improvement, spiritually and mentally. Civilization and freedom to leverage change upon it are that mechanism. Society is a process by which we all improve, not a state we arrive at.

You assumed humans were finished, or could be finished by you. Humans are far, far grander in scope than you can ever even imagine.

>>53187322
Wrong

>>53187404
Ah, nice of you to join us, Mr. President.

>>53187481
>implying he wasn't with us since the start of the thread
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwrZFIo61o0

>>53187322
Grand? Do you have that much faith in these hairless apes, these mortal specks?

In but a blink, no more shall remain. In but a blink, their edifices shall be little more than dust. Your words mean nothing. Your faith, even less.

You and this would-be dictator share the same fate: oblivion.

We had an LG 'deity' promise much of this to a city, and spells proved every thing to be true.The locals bought in. As PCs, that would be boring, so we hoofed it into the hills.

Two game years later, we return to find it solved all the problems.

No shortages of food, no crime, no death, no disease, no poverty...even universal happiness. Every citizen, plus all who stopped by, were charmed into euphoria and the Stoned!

It was an interesting start to the campaign's final story arc!

>>53187666
What'd you do, Satan?

>>53184239
1. A gilded cage is still a cage. Human beings are not meant to be kept in cages. Some of us need freedom to thrive, they need to be able to travel and choose what to do with their own lives. To torture these people is wrong.

2. What happens to those who are miserable despite (or due to) the BBEG's brainwashing/happy pills (or potentially good and commendable efforts)? They cannot leave and must suffer, and this is wrong too.

3. If you have no choice but to be "happy" the way the Empire wants you to, are you really happy? Again, one man's good life is another man's personal hell...

>>53184239
What freedoms are you taking away, and how will my life be improved? I don't give a fuck if some rich asshole loses his company, his private army and his superyacht. Freedom is pretty useless when you have nothing.

>>53185771
An animal is unfit to control animals.

>>53188036
Precisely.

Which is why your enemy will share your fate - oblivion.

>>53187588
fuckoff edgemeister the mortals are talking

>>53184306
Off topic, but those are all totalitarian regimes. The idea that a different kind of communism could work (not that I necessarily agree) usually hinges on the idea of it being democratic.

>>53188078
>Democracy
>anything other than totalitarianism by the majority

>>53188078
>>53184306
Part of the reason communism never works (aside from human nature) is it is usually attempted by destitute and oppressed people not used to exercising decision making - they're looking for a solution, a system that will take away their problems.'True' Communism requires the engagement of the populace, because the populace becomes the apparatus of the government, not 'leaders'. IE, it requires WORK. You can't just put someone in charge and call it a day, people have to get together and make decisions. They also need to be on guard against those who would unfairly exploit the power vaccume this creates to offer the easy solution of a leader.

While communism will never 'work', because again human nature, it would fare far better in a nation with a history of exercising personal freedom and taking a personal stake in government, like a western democracy. But not america because we have like, the LOWEST actual voter turn out/interaction rate

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>>53186373

>>53188192
There's already a word for true communism: anarchism.

>>53188029
>Freedom is pretty useless when you have nothing.

Word.

In reality the new tyrant king is probably talking about curbing the autonomy of his vassals or maybe revoking some rights of the fat townie merchant class. Either way I, the pleb in the street, don't really give a fuck.

>>53184442
Best post

>>53188192
>The existing social order is because of human nature. Pay no attention to times in the past when society was organized completely differently, it is inconceivable that a new distribution of power could take place because of human nature.

>>53184239

Does it really matter?

I mean, does the GM expect the PCs to throw down their arms and decide to side with the villain? It'd be kind of stupid to suddenly go "Oh, the BBEG has a point. Let's drop everything and work for him!"

We've come all this way, we're going to kill him regardless. Whether we engage with his argument or not is besides the point, because it's going to come down to a punching match.

>>53188689
>BBEG surrenders peacefully and submits himself to your court system of choice
what now skippy?

>>53188781

He gets the death penalty.

>>53185083
I agree that it was a mistake but freedom in itself was never the problem: it was "freedom" from all proper forms of transcendent authority. Liberty from government is clearly natural and good when a government can claim no such upward orientation. The freedom of Dostoevsky and the individualism of Kierkegaard are very different from their enlightenment equivalents.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om6HcUUa8DI

>>53188823
But that's wrong. True authority can only come from a state built by man, not some ephemeral spirit. Man must hold authority over himself not only on an individual level, but on a collective level as well.

>>53188781

I behead him and claimed he died resisting arrest.

>>53184239
>BBEG
ugh

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>>53184239
>being a dirt lawfag

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>>53184239
>Does the BBEG have a point if he's legitimately making life better for the average person?
I'm gonna need some clarification on "taking away freedom"
That could mean everything from installing an authoritarian regime to turning people into mindless drones using technology/magic.

>At what point does the "evil empire" simply become "The empire"?
Again, clarify your fucking semantics.
There is more than one interpretation.
In practice that could be anything from taking away civil liberties over violating divine order to willfully causing suffering.

>Are most people better off having their lives controlled if they are protected from harm and comfortable when they would normally starve due to thei own ?
Arguably yes.

>my character's face when this bumbling idiot wants to rule the empire without even being able to express his ideas in an unambiguous manner

>>53188460
The only times anarchy has ever been achieved is when your ancient greek city state is in a period during the election of public leaders.

Or if your reme mutinies.

>>53184551
You do know the biggest irony of Rome's fall was stabbing the Barbarians in the dick right?

The Germanic tribes loved the Roman ideal but the Roman's refused to supply German proxy states out of spite.

You don't tell the barbarians to come out of the woods, set them on the path of conquest, then cry when you can't fuck them over.

>>53184239
Well now, that depends, doesn't it? How are we defining freedom? In what way is the overlord "providing a better life?" In short, what freedom is he taking away, and in exchange for what alleged good? My answer depends entirely on how those are answered.

>>53188902
>transcendence is fleeting and only men have have authority
You have it backwards. Man is temporary: transcendence is the unending authority, for it is powerful without limitations.

>>53189148
Transcendence only has power so long as man lets it have power over him.
God can speak of authority when he imposes His law with choirs of angels on Earth.

>>53184239
>Implying we already don't live in this world

Go out and try to kill somebody, tell me how people react to you exercising your freedom to kill. You're already cattle, the only difference between this form of dominion and any other is that you grew up in it and accept it.

Americans don't know shit because they're emotionally invested in words they have no reason to emotionally invest themselves in.

>>53189257
>Go out and try to kill somebody
Why would I want to do that?

>>53189270
Why would someone raised in >>53184239 society want to do whatever it is that society doesn't allow them to do?

They probably wouldn't because they've seen the benefits of such a society and compromise regarding their personal liberties in exchange for a better quality of life.

In the same way that we treat murderers and others as degenerates for failing to abide by the laws imposed upon them for the sake of society so too would that society reject those who choose not to abide by the rules that allow that civilization to work.

You don't even know what rights/freedoms/privileges would be taken away/given in such a society, it might even be more free than the one you already live in. People who are lashing out against the OP post prematurely are just teenagers who watched too many 80s action flicks.

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>>53189198
>t. grand inquisitor
Man does not need earthly law to make him good, as forced goodness is not goodness at all, just the comfortable illusion of tranquility: he needs to leave such things below him and master himself so he can love freely, not by fear but by his will. Earthly law is not evil either. There isn't a need to tear it down or rebel against it, but it cannot make one strong: it is a crutch only, an object, a tool to be respected and left for the use of others. It is not something to be dominated by.

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>>53184306
But what if the DM is a cynic who only sees the worst aspects of every political system so no matter what you're fighting or fighting for it's all shit n the end?

>>53188078
Then it's socialism, not communism. It's literally in the communist manifesto that a "temporary" "transitionary" dictatorship is needed.

>>53189405
At least there is enough food being produced in a capitalist system

>>53189405
Unless the specific capitalist system is currently being tried for 200+ years in the US

>>53189405
>anti-communist poster uses the largest, most famous, most successful examples of communism for its examples
>this shitty copy of it uses the weakest, most obscure, least successful examples of capitalism for its examples
WEW!

>>53189505
>medicare
>anti-trust laws
>welfare

Oh yeah, that pure capitalist system we have in the US has been working great!

>>53189506
>NOT REAL CAPITALISM

>>53189257
And then there's retards like you who think that freedom and anarchy are the same thing.

>>53189547
Those are fairly recent. He was wrong about 200 years. About 150 would be more accurate.

>>53189506
Least successful? The Pinkertons suppressed labor in the United States, which is widely regarded as the most successful example of capitalism isn't it?

The real issue here is why we should accept either system if they both can lead to hunger, poverty and death? Shouldn't the goal be a system in which we minimize all of those equally rather than try to isolate the suffering to either the very poor or very rich?

>>53184239
/pol/tards ruined /tg/.

>>53189579
The United States was a purely capitalist country for all of twenty years in the early 1800s and it was a massive shitshow that created a merchant aristocracy and nearly destroyed the country under the weight of monopolies.

That's why the government stepped in.

>>53189579
>150 years
I don't even think the United States was beyond the toddler stage when it enacted the Whiskey Tax. Sorry, you're wrong.

>>53184239
"And when you fail, and your supposed eternal empire eventually falls to ruin - will it be because you are not eternal, or because you were always a failure to begin with? You are not so wise that you understand an eternity of universal prosperity and happiness, and even if you are, will you yourself fall on the sword of the man who understands it better? I think not.

No, you are a despot, same as all the rest. Perhaps you are wise, perhaps your will is strong, perhaps your motives are pure, but to take rather than to trade or to ask is a tyranny I will never stand for, not from the lowest beggar or the greatest Dark God."

>>53189405
Capitalism isn't a political system

>>53189567
>"the best examples of my system are just as bad as the worst examples of your system!"

>>53189581
>The Pinkertons suppressed labor in the United States, which is widely regarded as the most successful example of capitalism isn't it
Not at the time the pinkertons were a thing. America gets its well deserved reputation much later.

>why we should accept either system if they both can lead to hunger, poverty and death?
Because not chosing either is itself a choice. There's capitalism, communism, other systems from history, and the State of Nature; of all of those, capitalism has proven to most consistently provide equity and prosperity for the nation.
When Churchill said that Capitalism was the least bad system, he was right.

>>53189643
It is an economic system that, in its 'pure' form, demands a lack of government intervention thereby becoming a political system. It's like government atheism, it attributes all the powers of a government into market forces, which is ridiculous. That's why pure capitalism is just as much a myth and meme as pure communism.

>>53189652
>Not at the time the pinkertons were a thing. America gets its well deserved reputation much later.

Wow, you could have at least told me before you were going to move those goalposts.

>>53189652
>Capitalism has proven to most consistently provide equity and prosperity for the nation.

But this is wrong. The system which has a proven track record of working is a mixed economy, regulated capitalism. Neither too free-market nor too socialized, but a blend of the two that respects the commons while not stifling free enterprise.

>>53189677
You're being dense. Systems evolve over time. American capitalists originally thought that suppressing workers violently with the pinkertons made their system better, but this is not the case, as can clearly be seen by more effective versions of capitalism in the future co-operating with workers instead of killing them.
You might as well say that melee weapons are more effective than ranged weapons because renaissance-era halberds are better weapons than caveman-era bows.

>>53189695
>regulated capitalism isn't capitalism anymore.
And I'M the one accused of pulling the "not real capitalism" card.

>>53189610
WHISKY
REBELS

>>53189748
Laissez faire has a pretty clear meaning. If your definition of capitalism is 'it's capitalism but the government can control it in the places it feels it needs to' then you're laughably wrong.

>>53189846
Laissez faire doesn't work because it assumes all businesses will compete

Businesses discovered they could make more money, more reliably, by colluding and controlling the market

See: the Cable industry in the United States

>>53189748
By that logic then Chinese Communism is equally successful to American Capitalism.

>>53184329

Because it implies the dictatorship will last forever, or many generations beyond what you would wish.

>>53189892
Exactly, that's why capitalism doesn't work. You have to have socialism partnered with it, a strong central government that can regulate industry for the betterment of society.

>>53184576

Nigga you dumb. That's what evil is.

>>53184729

Too much liberty and humans will destroy themselves. Just as law is required to restrain human desires, so is a leader required to restrain human desires.

>>53189913
No anon, he means evil like just killing people for no reason at all. Having a reason to do things is too complicated.

>>53189894

Chinese Communism is basically Capitalism with a red coat of paint.
They're just authoritarian oligarchs at this point.

>>53189965
>NOT REAL COMMUNISM

>>53185918

The fact we are small is a gift, because it means we can grow.

>>53189846
Laissez faire is different from capitalism. Capitalism is private ownership of the means of production. Laissez faire is that, plus a complete inability for the state to regulate.

>>53189991
>the communists are saying that X isn't real capitalism, and the capitalists are saying that Y isn't real communism
See, this is why I enjoy a little bit of /pol/ in my /tg/: because /tg/ does /pol/ better than /pol/.

>>53186296

Taking away certain choices shows compassion. By limiting the freedom of your subjects to ensure their survival, you show compassion for your fellow man. Tyranny occurs when you lose that compassion, when you abuse the power you have been granted.

>>53189991

Nigga, the means of production are not collectivized.
Government businesses do not distribute their profit to the people.
THere is private healthcare.
There are private schools.
Private enterprise is encouraged.

The Communist Party is in charge, but they don't push for anything beyond authoritarian control.
Nigga, these things aren't absolutes, and can easily be measured by looking at their policies.

>>53190072

Tyranny is simply unchecked power.
There are good tyrants, there are bad tyrants. More of the latter.

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Tell me what the man who has never had any hardship knows in comparison to the man who's had nothing but.

>>53184239
I'm a Monarchist nigga.

Give me a God appointed Royalty and Nobility and I shall be the happiest peasant ever.

>>53190368
The man who has had nothing but hardship does not know loss.

Nothing has ever been taken from him, for he has never had anything to take away.

A fall from grace hurts so much more than spending one's whole life at the bottom - for the crab which has always been at the bottom of the barrel has never seen light and does not know what it is missing. The crab which fell there from the top has, and the loss crushes it harder, for it is not used to the weight of the others atop it.

>>53184756
As opposed to conservative communists?

>>53185112

In the case of the Faceless Emperor though he is actually eternal. He can't age and cannot be killed or harmed in anyway.

>>53189664
I understand capitalism perfectly well. I was just commenting on the pic

>>53190754
Arguably, that'd be Russians circa mid 20th century.

>>53187322
>Only an omnipresent omnipotent all knowing all loving western God
>western God
>dis nigga doesn't know about Ahura Mazda
Otherwise I pretty much agree with you.

>>53189599
underrated post

>>53190504
I guess that's why the people at the politicians and the rich are always the biggest arseholes, eh? Always scared, desperate to fuck over someone else so there's more leg-room on top of the Jenga pile.

>>53192109
Ahura Mazda is honorary western, since he's indo-aryan

>>53184239

So, your villain almost word for word rips off lines from the Ur-Quan Kzer-za from Star Control 2.

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>>53189506
Just throwing my two cents in and adding this picture so we have a complete set in the thread.

And honestly only the first example is capitalism in that picture. Leopold II was basically colonialism of the worst kind (as in, even other colonial powers agree that it was a shit-show). While the last two were straight up autocratic fascists.

>>53189652
>regulated capitalism has proven to most consistently provide equity and prosperity for the nation
ftfy

>>53190035
Everyone does /pol/ better than /pol/. Even fucking /k/ used to do better than /pol/ (the Canada threads were especially good)... now it's all gone to shit.

The paranoid in me says they're fucking with us on purpose.

>>53192271
>implying that capitalism and regulated capitalism are different things
Wew.
Also, you might want to take chavez off that list

>>53192345
Anon is perceptive. A large percentage of /pol/ is just acting ironically, and holds reasonable/nuanced opinions in actuality. These tend to be the good parts of /pol/

>>53192411
>/pol/ is ironic
Begone, JIDF

denying that /pol/ is ironic is part of the post-ironic joke, by the way

>>53192411
>you might want to take chavez off that list
I didn't make it, and I'm well aware that Venezuela is falling apart. It's not like having a leader with a brain tumour is going to produce grade A results

>wew
Yeah yeah, so edgy. Funny how people always ignore the rest of the examples and focus on Chavez. No... not funny. Telling.

>>53184239
> so you read Hobbs, not bad
> I like Rousseau
> I reccomend you read both before you doom the world with your ADHD and ulcers brought upon you by micro managing.

>>53192565
Nah, the other examples are fine. Scrapes the bottom of the barrel a bit, but there's nothing wrong with that.

The wew was because you felt the need to put the regulated part on it. Of course regulated capitalism is better than ancapistan faggotry; EVERY system is better in moderation than it is taken to the extreme. It felt to me like you just added that to get the last word in.

>>53192411
When I say they're fucking with us on purpose, I don't mean they're 'being ironic'. People don't ironically start threads about how they should try to turn the rainbow flag into a symbol of hate. That is, literally spread the meme that the separate colours mean segregation, and in some cases combine it with that asinine comparison about diversity and mixing different colour paints together.

It's definitely retarded, but the "ha ha" you hear isn't the funny kind, it's the kind you hear a hammy villain in a kids cartoon doing as he rubs his hands together and explains his evil plan.

They're a complete fucking cancer and are steadily driving all the sane members of /k/ away from the board. Thankfully at least /tg/ seems to do a lot better fending them off. And it wouldn't be bad in principle, if they weren't a bunch of little goose-stepping assholes who generally stand in opposition to what /k/ believes in (primarily, freedom and guns). The only saving grace is, that if they ever did try their death squad shit they'd be gunned down like the fucking dogs they are.

Because /k/ommandos don't go away, we just go innawoods.
/rant

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Chaotic Neutral motherfucker, I don't give a shit how many people hurt themselves or others with their free will as long as they have that free will.
Don't fucking tread on me.

>>53192701
Apologies for overreacting a bit then. Sometimes I forget which board I'm on.

>>53192727
Also, just to add to the paint thing, /tg/ also knows that when you mix all your fucking paints together, you get black, not brown.

>>53192727
>People don't ironically start threads about how they should try to turn the rainbow flag into a symbol of hate
>if they ever did try their death squad shit they'd be gunned down like the fucking dogs they are
Both of these things are ironic. Many of the people who post this kind of stuff would never hate someone just because they're gay; hell, I bet a lot of the people posting it ARE gay.

Let me explain myself in a bit more detail. A bit more than 2 years ago, I decided to see just how deep the rabbit whole goes, and I started looking into /pol/ and other far right groups online. In that time, I've seen some weird shit. I've seen the rivalry between aesthetic-nazis and anime-nazis on Tumblr; I've spoken extensively with neo-monarchists on Discord and IRC chats; I've been part of racially diverse hate-groups on skype. Very few of these places cared that I'm Jewish by the way.

What I've learned after over 2 years of exploring these places is that the extreme right is a lot less extreme than it appears at first glance. The people who I talked with all had coherent, well thought out views, and most of them were willing to change their minds if presented with evidence.

So why are these groups categorized by hate and vitriol? Some say that it's because extremists in these communities have the loudest voice, but this isn't the case. In reality, it is simply that people in these communities speak as if they are extremists, when very few of them actually are. They do this for a number of reasons; the extremist rhetoric is often full of inside jokes and subtext, which strengthens group cohesion, and it often serves as a way to keep out pesky outsiders who might dilute the group.

All the stuff about the day of the rope and Kek and helicopters and worshiping Odin, it's all bullshit. You could even think of it as LARPing, if you want. It's not a real opinion held by people who matter, and it's nothing to be worried about or taken seriously.


sorry about the rant

>>53193003
>sorry about the rant
No I'm fine with it. Frankly I wish my rants were that coherent and lacking in vitriol themselves.

In my case I'm a 'live and let live, walk softly carrying a big stick' kinda guy. So don't plan to shoot anyone unless they shoot first.

>>53185918
While true none of these can look at the sky and conquer it through ingenuity, none seek the forces that make up the world, break them apart and understand them.
None have created the same life twice, or understood the laguage of life itself, seen the surface of suns or heared the echoes ofthe very beginning of all there is.
Humans are special, in that we seek and break rules whereever we can find them, so we can exploit them to our advantage and given enough time, we might conquer time and life and ourselves.
Don't you feel the glory of the world when you look upon the stars and know what they are? Don't you feel that from a few spcies we created hundreds more?
We might be animals, but we are certainly exceptional in many regards ad much of that is because we are part of nature still. Because we know our own limited time and fraility we are driven to things that transcend us.
And they might turn to dust, but your choices will echo through eternity forever, because you were like a pebble thrown into a still pond. The waves are still there, even if you can't see them anymore.

>>53189467
Sounds like you have never lived under communism done right. USSR had plenty of food except briefly during the war. Bread lines are a myth.
>>53189581
The USA has a mixed economy: socialism and capitalism blended. Primary education is socialized, infrastructure is socialized, water and power are somewhat socialized. Mandatory safety nets like social security and medicare. It has been mixed for about 150 years. Every civilized nation in the world today has a mixed economy.
Capitalism doesn't work. Mixed economies usually do ok.

>>53184239
Hey satan, job and god already figured this out. If we don't have free will to make the right choices and to love god, there was no point to being born in the first place.

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>>53193003
Hail Wodan, kike.

>>53194047
Ask an older Russian what a "Get Lucky" bag was.

>>53189257
You have freedom to kill, but as a society, we have decided that for the betterment of society, that we do what we can to dissuade people from exercising that right. Society as a whole exercises it's freedom to attempt to prevent murder, and you are going against that freedom. The only reason it's "muh not really free" is if you want to be free of other people, if you're willing to accept "consequences" for anything you do then you are free to do whatever you want.

>>53184756

>bitches about liberal communists while ignoring the people who propelled an authoritarian into office

>>53188029
Honestly, I'd exchange suffrage for having stronger rights in other areas.

>what is government for $100

This is a non-problem. Free will is not the issue here, but governance and the idea that people need oversight from outside to govern their affairs in a way that no one entity bullies everyone else - the bully role is turned into an enforcer of law which constrains free will to the benefit of majority - anti-murder and anti-theft laws won't enforce themselves and the only way to ensure impartiality is to have an enforcer that will keep the law.

If we talk about fantasy land, clearly this is done in a circumstance where a largely lawless and anarchic area, despite its perceived freedoms, is beset by problems of security and as such ,any perceived freedom is unusable in face of external threats taking up majority of your time.

We limit our absolute freedoms which we cannot use to actually use and maximize our relative freedoms which we can enjoy in peace.
This is Hobbes 101. The heroes can shoot back with Rousseau, but if the actual track record is proven to be bad and anarchy does reign in the land, the "villain" is actually in the right.

>>53184239
OP, why do you have to be a faggot?

>reminder that 90% of all parties do not give a shit about the person in power, they just see him as another, big pinâta with a target painted on which says "hit me for phat lootz"

>>53192565
>I'm well aware that Venezuela is falling apart. It's not like having a leader with a brain tumour is going to produce grade A results
there problems were enbeded in the previous governor no?
Largely a lack of infrastructure, actually using that damn money to better the living standards of the people.
a fucking monarchy does socialism better than them
>>53193003
neo-monarchists
do tell
Were they atleast constutionalists

>>53184376
>Some people in colonial cultures believed it was their duty to care for the "lesser" races.
Look at what happened when the colonists withdrew. The "lesser" races proved utterly incapable of self-governance and are now swarming into the lands controlled by their former oppressors in the hopes of attaining a quality of life beyond their own capabilities.

>>53185083
>>53188823
>the enlightenment was a mistake
4chan = reactiontard central. Thanks, /pol/.

>>53196378
>Were they atleast constutionalists
Of course! They weren't barbarians...

>>53197019
>/pol/ boogeyman

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>>53184239
>freedom is the right of all sentient beings
in theory it shouldnt be too bad, as long as it isnt too extreme, people cant enjoy freedom if they are dead, after all

but historically, "taking away freedom" for "securing security" has been a terrible longshot at best, often slipping into a fascist nightmare after a relatively short time

and forcing people into your vision of security, whether they want it or not, has long been the excuse of conquerors

of course, the addition of "actually making life better" does make things confused, but most people would not consider it worth it if such paradise involved brutal pillaging and conquering

so, generally, if your supposed "Better life" involves tons of violence, forcing people into it, brainwashing, and resorting to the "if they didnt resist so much, this would be easier" excuse, then you might be pretty evil, regardless of intent

>>53192458
I am a neo-ironical