>when you can't solve problems with diplomacy and cunning

>>53154734

D&D has many legitimate flaws, varying from edition to edition. What you describe is not, and has never been one of them, at least in terms of traits the system possesses.

You're right, every single system out there is easier and faster than D&D, there's definitely not any games that are more cumbersome.

>>53154760
>efficacy of diplomacy reliant on GM fiat is not a flaw

D&D hasn't been in print since 1994.

OP is probably referring to d20 System™, which is a different beast.

>>53154734
>not knowing that Diplomacy breaks 3.PF game RAW
>not knowing that D&D used to have reaction tables and morale, so encounters weren't always hostile and didn't always end with a fight to the death

>>53154794

They're still products called D&D. Any arbitrary divider between your conception of 'real' D&D and the products commercially available since then only exists in your head, and is utterly irrelevant to any debate or discussion.

>>53154782

And here you show you don't actually know the system.

Most versions had guidelines. They weren't necessarily good, but they did exist.

You're the Andy Sixx log guy of this board.

ITT: things that never happen.

It is threads like these that proved to me that there's a sizeable chunk of /tg/ that does not play games, rather just shitposts about them.
Old school D&D's HP values were low.
3.x was known for Rocket Tag. Fights rarely last for more than five minutes, let alone hours,
4e had some grindfests in the early monster manuals, but three hours? Only if you are literally retarded.
5e fights are over before you notice them.

In conclusion: not only does OP not play D&D, he never has, and just shitposts about it on the internet. Pity him. He needs it.

>>53154864
It's just one of a few trolls. Hardly a "sizable" population, merely a particularly dedicated and energetic one.

The answer is to match their fervor by discussing the games in other threads, while ignoring them and their witless and empty arguments. Don't engage with them, don't respond to them, and let these sad threads die.

>>53154824

>X is shit!
>There are some 7 to 11 significantly different kinds of X.
>Irrelevant!

Okay.

>>53154734
I think your problem is not D&D but with your DM. My DM regularly let's us solve problems in a non-violent fashion as long as we roleplay and come up with real solutions beyond "I roll diplomacy."

>>53154864
3.x fights definitely last longer than five minutes but they're over in two rounds unless your party is shit.

we had a kind of nice thread the other day where we suggested alternatives to DnD, perhaps you may want to dig it up from the archives.
Either that, or post your own alternative.

Have some here had play radiance rpg?

>>53154734
>when you can't solve problems with diplomacy and cunning and have to resort to a three-hour slogfest through a bag of hit points

Thats the fault of a bad DM, and worse players.

>>53154734
When did you realize you were a mindless, bandwagoning, meme-driven dipshit?

>>53154734
>When Charisma is a number and players can't roleplay social encounters for shit because they are autists.

Making Social skills a numbers game instead of making it require roleplay is what ruined social play in tabletop.

>>53155708
Somehow two rounds in my games takes 3 hours. Typically from characters arguing, or rules lawyering...

>>53159284
I agree. In my TTRPG I got rid of all social and mental attributes, and just replaced the latter with a simple - yet deep - skill system.

>>53159284
>When Charisma is a number and players can't roleplay social encounters for shit because they are autists.
Isn't that a problem with the players, and not with the system itself though? If anything, the system allows those "autists" to play more roles than they themselves reasonably could, which gives more freedom in making characters and playing the game, so it's a good thing.

>>53154734
>when you can't just diplomacy the BBEG into surrendering and ruin everyone's game, because they were excited to finally face it
Fuck off diplomacy cuck, you're just looking for a way to not play the game.

>>53154734
>when situations are trivialized by transmutation+conjuration wizards.

>>53159284
D&D would be immeasurably better if Charisma and Intelligence scores didn't exist.

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>>53159284
>When Strength is a number and players can't grab a knife and jam it through dummy wearing padded leather for shit because they weak beta's.

Making Strength skills a numbers game instead of making it require discipline and training is what ruined combat in tabletops.

>>53160632
Oh, it's this stupid meme again.

>>53160632
>>53159284

>When HP is a number and players can't take an appropriate punch or stabbing because they are bitches

Making HP a numbers game instead of making it genuine hardiness is what ruined realism in tabletop.

You fags are STILL trying?

>>53160186
this to be honest familia

T. Focused Specialist Conjurer player

>>53155708
If fights last more than two rounds it means PCs are going to die in 3.5

>>53159284
>When Sanity is a number and players don't develop real mental illness because they are fucking casuls

Making Sanity a numbers game instead of making it a struggle for mental stability is what ruined horror in tabletop.

>>53159284
You do your role play.
Then you roll to see how it is perceived.
Eventually with bonus or malus on your roll awarded by the GM depending on the credibility of your prestation.

There are people who don't do that?

Please do not engage with these trolls. They already know their arguments are stupid, they just no longer care because they actually get more attention the dumber they are.

>>53160632
Don't try to strawman me.

Charisma and social behaviour can't be quantified.

Physical strength and coordination on the other hand can be quantified.

>>53161109
No one reply to this troll please.

I have my problems with D&D (3.PF to be exact) but I don't think what you say is a problem of the sytem per se, OP

>>53154734
What kind of trash GM did you have? Seriously, just get a good GM. Diplomacy is one of the legs this game literally stands on. Two others being exploration, and combat. If you don't have a healthy combination of these 3, you have a bad game of DnD.

>>53161136
He is a troll. A troll that spams these threads whenever he feels particularly lonely.
You're wasting your time replying to him in earnest.

>>53159270
Hopefully he did at birth, I feel that this feature is shockingly apparent in him, and perhaps engrained in his DNA.

>>53161187
There was no point in bumping this thread just to say what everyone already knows.

>>53159284
>When dexterity is a number and players can't twirl a blade around their fingers because they have cheeto fingers.

Making dexterity a numbers game instead of making it a weird trick to get all the bitches and grow your penis guaranteed, Barbarians HATE HIM, is what ruined swordsmanship in tabletop.

>>53161204
>trolls trolling trolls

>>53155412
they may (or may not) all be shit anyway
for example, all of them are (from a 2017 pov) most definitely gamist in design

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>>53154824

>He doesn't know that 3rd, 4th, and 5th edition are AD&D with the "A" dropped for marketing reasons
>Or that D&D and AD&D are different games

>>53159380
I'm curious, care to tell me about it anon? I was thinking of homebrewing some stuff for 3.PF to improve the social skillset. Was thining 'Empathy' would be a nice addition as an emotional-based antithesis for 'sense motive'. Basically, used to sense hidden emotions/mental strain as apposed to actual planned actions/intention.

>>53159284
I stopped playing a bard when i was the only person on the table tried to diplomacy my way out of situations, even though we had a warlock with a higher charisma than me and was just a murder hobo.

I will give a quick example.

We are doing mines of phandelver, we are just before venomfang and we had a run in with the dragon cultists. I managed to convince the cultists that there was a demon man running around with flaming hair and a demonic ferret on its shoulder. The warlock runs in front of the cultists with his flaming hair caused by an illusion, has inspiration for an intimidation check and he says "hello there, time to die" casts an eldritch blast on one of the cultists and I manage to JUST fix his mistake by casting calm emotions on the entire group of cultists

>>53154809
>didn't always end with a fight to the death
And they don't have to if you don't have a shit tier GM.

>>53161098
>You do your role play.
>Then you roll to see how it is perceived.
This is wrong.
You outline how you want to make your argument or whatever.
The GM gives you modifiers based on the NPC's responsiveness to the tack you've chosen.
Then you roll.
The GM tells how well/badly you succeeded/failed.
THEN you roleplay the result.

>>53161223
Don't play D&D, then. That way you don't have to throw a tantrum like a goddamn toddler about how much you hate playing it.

>>53161364
>Not giving a long, eloquent speech first and hoping you roll well
Git gud, scrub

>>53160632
False equivalency because role-playing is a talking and planning (and rolling dice) game. Sorry that you haven't realized this yet. ... say are you one of those fa/tg/uys who have never played an RPG I keep hearing about?

>>53161391
> throw a tantrum
the post you are referencing was my first post in the thread. how is that a tantrum?

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Y'all motherfuckers need sage .

Please, just ignore the bait. Don't give them the satisfaction of knowing they know just what to say to get a response out of you.

You're not going to convince them of anything, and everyone else already knows they are wrong. Let them wallow.

>>53161344
Precong 5e games have a problem though (at least the first ones) everybody hates the PCs, even the NPCs youre supposed to help, they all antagonize you and treat you like shit, and have predefined actions that can't be changed even if you roll 5 billion in Cha (persuassion). It all depends on the GM wanting or not to change that.

T. Dude who usually plays Party Faces and who played the first 3 modules of 5e

>>53161439
My apologies, I assumed you were OP.

>>53161475
I'm a GM running Lost Mines of Phandelver, and at least for that module this is plain wrong. Most NPCs are helpful, if a bit guarded until they can trust you.
Can't say the same for the other modules, I hear Hoard of the Dragon Queen is a steaming pile though.

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>>53154734
D&D isn't garbage. It's just deeply flawed in many of it's iterations and editions like most other systems. (It also has the advantage of being well known.)

A good GM can make it work, just like a good GM can make any system work.

At the end of the day a GM should pick the game that they least have to change and finesse to get what they want out of it, but systems don't really matter as much as the quality of the people sitting at the table (or the artificial table as the case may be).

>>53154734
Why the fuck do you even play these games if it's not to get your kicks out of a good fight?

>>53161475
we had an excellent GM, if i rolled decent persuasion/deception then i would get more trusting NPCs, In this specific situation a bad player ruined the situation, i ended up rolling a monk with a charisma of 7 and just sticking with my morality of being lawful good and maintaining the "dont kill people that arent hurting us" rule

>>53159270
When I realized I was only paying D&PF

>>53161641
Not OP, but... You say that, but when I'm playing a game I actually like with any of my groups, I have tons of fun. I played 5E with one of those groups and the system straight up fucking ruined the game singlehandedly.

>>53162010
How did that happen?

>>53162010
Did you try playing it the same way you play your other systems?

>>53162010
I've never played 5e, and haven't touched D&D since 3.PF back when it came out. Only played PF for about a year.

I've found other game systems I've fallen in love with so I never had a reason to stick with it.

I don't blame D&D for what is in the end, my personal taste of what I want out of a game, and the amount of work necessary to put into it. The people are always what matters most in terms of fun.

>>53162010
I had a PF group I introduced a bunch of different games (including 5e) to and they literally sabotaged their own fun just so they can go back to playing PF.

>>53162035
By being worse at doing everything we played D&D for. It was way worse than pre-3E at running gritty campaigns, it was way worse than 3E at running fantasy superheroes, it wasn't a good midpoint between those, the combat was boring as fuck compared to any edition's and especially 4E's, and the low bonuses made everything a crapshoot where it came down to how lucky you were, especially noncombat, where there was the constant problem of people with no training being fucking Superman when it came to skill checks because someone would always get lucky on their roll. I couldn't stand it at all.

>>53162135
>How did that happen?
>I'm dumb and blame personal failings on a system I don't understand because I'm dumb

Nothing to see here, folks. Just a bitter goblin raging at everything except himself.

>>53162135
So, your homebrew bullshit that worked for 3.5 didn't work in 5e?

And your friends can't enjoy combat unless it's mmo-style power-card spam?

Learn to role-play, my dude.

The d20 system is pretty shitty. The bell-curve is non-existent. But 5e helped fix that with advantage rolls.

Honestly, 5e is the best D&D system yet. 4e was great if your players were role-players and didn't just pick a power-card and read it robotically.

Sounds like the problem is with your group not understanding how best to use 5e.

>>53162135
Characters don't really come into their class till level 3, maybe that was your problem.

You were expecting to be powerful from level 1, like 4e.

It doesn't work like that.

>>53162300
Or, and this might be hard for you to believe, we don't like the kind of game 5E is suited for and never will.

Calling D&D "deeply flawed" just smacks of bug-feature confusion. Flawed at doing what, exactly? It seems to work just fine for things that you'd expect D&D to be good for.

>>53162352
We played until level 5. It didn't do shit to curtail the problems we were having.

>>53154734
I was lucky my gaming group has bed playing since the early 80s and had already jumped ship from dnd more than a decade before.

So about 22 years.

I've played DND a couple times, it isn't that bad. It's just really hard to go back to it because you keep looking at everything and thinking how it's being done wrong/poorly.

>>53161325
I started off as a 3.pf homebrew to correct all the deficiencies I saw in 3.5 - stuff like armor not giving DR, classes being extremely inflexible with no real character creation, and players ignoring their mental stats (or more rarely in my groups, completely overplaying them). I also wanted to capeshits without Mutants and Masterminds which I think is a rather shit system. So I began working on a system that has no mental stats (the closest thing to mental stats is Senses - basically how well you can detect your environment and changes in it). Races work as a base "class" giving you your HD, starting wealth, and power points to build your character with, and each has their own unique strengths and weaknesses.

One of the things your race (Origin) gives you is base skill tics. You then have the option of buying (using PP) advanced skill tiers which work on a negative starting tics/upgrade cost curve - meaning starting off (not upgrading) you get a bunch of skill tics, but it's extremely expensive to buy more. At middle PP cost, you get 10 less starting tics than no cost, but you pay half as much to advance a skill later, at highest cost you get as many starting tics as not upgrading, but pay 1/4 the cost to advance a skill - but have spent a significant number of PP already.

The skill system itself works thus: you have several broad categories, each with a base skill of 6 and can be advanced to 20. At 14, basic skills unlock advanced skills and you get to select one advanced skill and gain 6 free points in it. When an advanced skill gets to 14, it unlocks master skills, one of which gets 6 free points. Essentially it looks something like Engineering -> Mechanical Engineering -> Hydraulic Systems. Then it's roll a D20 and add all applicable skills, up to a +60 bonus. 10 is a simple task, 20 is easy, 30 is moderate, 40 is advanced, 50 is difficult, 60 is hard, 70 is impossible, and 80 is wish fulfillment.

>>53162374
D&D is a very DM centric game. If you're having problems with constant failed rolls, maybe your DM is to blame, not the system? Or maybe your group doesn't know how to play their roles in combat?

D&D is a well put together system. It has it's flaws, sure, but your reasons for saying it's shit don't apply to the system, they apply to your group.

What system is your absolute favorite and what did you enjoy about it?

>>53154734
>when you get knocked prone and your best bet is staying prone, because otherwise you get a nice AOO shower, waste an action and then get knocked prone again next turn anyway
>when it's lvl 7 and you know the wizard will pepper the battlefield with control spells which don't care about allies and you have to get your anus ready for Ewards Black Tentacles of forced intrusion
>when it's the first turn and you already know which of you and which enemy is going to get focus fired that one of you will sit out the next few rounds of combat
>when you just have to roll about average but the d20 think it's time to go all flippy floppy on you

>>53162300

Eh. 5e is a decent D&D-genre heroic fantasy RPG in the vein of AD&D 2e, but the BEST edition yet?

It sounds like you're unaware of red box Basic and blue box Expert.

>>53162430
Basic is the worst TSR D&D

>>53162244
t. WOTC employee

The trolls are really active today. What gives?

>>53162427
>but your reasons for saying it's shit
"I don't like this system and it ruined a campaign I played in" is not the same thing as saying it's a shit system. At best it's saying that the system is shit at running what we're interested in.

>>53162427
>D&D is a well put together system.
Dude, you can't say something like that without specifying the edition

>>53162394
i kinda have to agree. for me, D&D is not bad it's just pretty mediocre, except for branding and community size. caveat: i am not a particularly gamist player, so it hasn't been designed to appeal to me.

>>53162430
I've been playing since AD&D, but it's hard to compare the fun I had then to the fun I have now in the newer systems. It's different. My DMing style has changed. What I enjoy in my games has changed.

By best edition yet; I mean it's the most streamlined; it has a ton of fluff for DM's and players to use; it's got some smart ideas put into it.

All that being said, I've come to prefer Edge of the Empire as my favorite system. I'm working on a dark souls inspired science-fantasy using the dice system. So take from that what you will.

>>53162427
Unless you're suggesting that it's his fault for not houseruling the whole system on the spot when it started spitting out dumb bullshit, no, it was definitely the system at fault here.

>>53162572
He either played it wrong on purpose or is an incredible idiot.

I don't know which is worse.

>>53162461

>t. unpopular opinion

>>53162526

All right, fair enough.

>>53162572
D&D isn't a board game with strict rules and a strict narrative to follow.

If the players are constantly failing in encounters or whatever then maybe something in the game needs to change. Either the players are biting off more than they can chew of the DM is throwing too much at them that they aren't prepared for.

I'm not saying D&D is perfect. It's definitely not. I can't stand d20 systems, no bell curve. But hating on the system because you can't win all the time isn't the system's fault.

>>53162637
I genuinely have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. I don't even see how that intersects with anything I said.

>>53162613
There's a reason AD&D is the one with more supplementary material. There's also a reason the Basic line was largely dumped after 1994.

>>53162479
the deendeeshills are really active today. who's paying ya?

>>53160711
You're a stupid meme. His meme is a sound argument; whereas you are likely a grognard

>>53162600
How is using the printed DCs in the adventure and the skill system the game comes with wrong? What the absolute fuck.

>>53162664
Maybe I'm confusing you with shit someone else has said in this thread.

I'm not saying you have to house-rule the game but I'm confused as to what you mean by "spitting out dumb shit"

I thought you were referring to the constant failures.

>>53162682

Are you seriously going with system bloat as your argument for why AD&D was better?

>>53161070
In which universe is this accurate?

>>53162714
The problem with those adventures is they're almost always meant for specific party compositions.

So when you make your own characters for them it adds to the difficulty.

>>53162722
There were no constant failures. I'm not even sure where that came from.

>>53162743
Popular systems get supported.

>>53161151
You're absolutely right, but I can't stand this fucker being allowed to just say objectively wrong things on a daily basis. It rustles my jimmies.

>>53161292
Actually 5e is specifically marketed as "Dungeons and Dragons," no subtitles, adjectives, or edition numbers. If you're gonna be a semantic grognard, at least be a correct semantic grognard.

>>53162743
>AD&D gets support
>BD&D gets dropped
>clearly this means AD&D is the worse one, because it's got more optional content

>>53162752
And those party compositions are never far removed from the typical four plus a fifth wheel of some kind.

>>53161203
There's no point in anything anyone does, anon. Ever.

>>53161641
You speak wisdom.

>>53162700
t. >>53160632 poster

>>53154864
Either you don't play, or you've got a small group. I have literally had 3 hour combats in 4e, and 5's tends to drag, too. Easily eats most of our session time. Of course, that's because our players don't know how to play the fucking game and have to look up their mods every time they do fucking anything.

>>53162244
Saying that people don't understand the system when they don't like it is not a catch-all argument. Not liking 5E because 5E's rules directly lead to stuff happening that nobody at the table wants is no different from a group that prefers rules lite systems wanting to kill themselves because they're playing Shadowrun.

>>53162748
GMs roll more dice per round than players, if fights last more he's going to get more nat20, more crits, etc meaning the party is going to get fucked the longer the encounter is. Anyone who played these systems will tell you the same.

>>53159284
That's ridiculous, you must be so obnoxious. Those stats exist to help people like you, anon, people who can't muster any kind of real-world Charisma but still want to play a cool guy on the internet. We shouldn't discourage those people. It's the reason we play the game, to be other than what we are.

>>53154734

>When did you realize OP is a gigantic faggot?

>>53161095
Wisdom

>>53162787
But its 4chan, nd he's allowed to say whatever he wants. SO really, the only way to get what YOU want, ie him shutting up, is to not reply to his threads (or sage), so that they drift off the frontpage in a few seconds and vanish into the aether, and eventually he'll give up. This is kinda 4chan 101, buddy. Ignore it and it'll go away.

>>53154734
When did you realize you need your opinions justified?

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>>53154734

>>53162787

When you piss into the piss-ocean it only get pissier.

>>53154734
first session.

>everyone's first time
>I prepare for the game and make my own charater before hand
>read every page of the PHB
>make a fighter
>get to session
>DM has made characters for everyone
>one guy is a jedi
>one guy is a dragon knight with a wyrmling
>were playing mines of phandelver

>>53162300
>Honestly, 5e is the best D&D system yet.

5E is a piece of shit system, that holds the unenviable distinction of not having a single thing it does well, even theoretically. Name any retroclone at random, and it is likely to be better.

>>53163505
Why put so much effort in your trolling? You're better off figuring out how to make it less obvious, rather than more retarded.

>>53161641
That's an incredibly diplomatic way of saying to everyone: "have you tried not playing dnd?"

>>53161364
>Roleplaying after the roll
How about fuck you, I don't want to sit listening to you monologue for 10 minutes when it's already been determined- that's a bigger waste of time than any combat session unless you're the kind of asslord who wants to describe how epic you hitting a guy with a sword is without being prompted to.

Not to mention sometimes a well rounded argument in real life will fail regardless, the whole point of the roll afterwards is to give the unrealistic chance that you can change someone's mind on something. Debates and Political sessions are based around the fact that people can be civil but won't agree due to stubborness or moral opinions, and those can last between an hour to whole years. The fact you can't even sway us, nor can you give a concise argument just shows how right the "dice roll for diplomacy" side is.

Also for the sake of RP diplomacy is streamlined via dice rolling, especially for those who are not charismatic but want to play so, I mean it's a game designed by people who are autists who can't even agree with each other or care about points besides their own. It was made as a numbers game for the sake of balance because the role playing doesn't come from just diplomacy it comes from interactions between players and people that DON'T need tests. Further it allows people who aren't gifted savants in their field to actually be able to play the game as well, like CHILDREN or THE HANDICAPPED. But that's a different argument not really suited for 4chan because of how memey we are.

tl;dr grow the fuck up and play it your way and let others play it theirs you probably autistic 30+ year old. THAC0 isn't a thing anymore for a reason either.

>>53163528
Hey, it is not my fault that playing a shit system made you unable to cope with reality in ways other than imagining everyone being out to troll you.

>>53163415
I had a time where the DM heavily encouraged us to create our own backstories beforehand, but when it came time for us to start, he flat out ignored all our backstories and just placed us in a random place he made up. Felt bad to have 4 people write over 16 pages of backstory just to have it blatantly ignored.

>>53163011
especially since 5E's rules are supposedly oh-so-simple

>>53163012
bullshit. if the opposition is composed of a high number of mooks, their numbers have already dwindled after the initial rounds have passed. by that time, the balance shifts towards the party. if the opposition is composed of 1 or 2 large monsters (dragons, giants, etc.), they roll less dice than the PCs.

>>53163064
but if it's multiple posters, the thing will stay alive

>>53163711
If you have trouble understanding 5e, there's really no other way to say it.

You are an idiot.

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>>53161353
>tfw all fights are fights to the death
>Because a player hates it when things retreat to fight again another day
>Have to pull out the chase rules, yet again
>They took spell sniper

>>53154734
When I realized I didn't actually enjoy table top games.

I actually don't mind the mechanics or the story telling aspect, I just don't like interacting with other people in that way, they are generally all really dumb or tell boring stories. Not that I think I'm great it's just like man I get it you think it's cool to be some kind of trickster devil child that plays pranks all the time how kooky, can we please try and run this moonshine, mountain town in the apocolypse

>>53154734

I love D&D but I've admittedly played too much of it.

What are some actual good alternatives and why ?

>>53164140
>please lie to me while bumping this troll thread

Faggot spotted.

>>53161748
To get your kicks out of being a hardened veteran of exploratory expertise, thriving off the land and honing a select set of skills to allow you to be swlf sufficent.
Also, social interaction can be interesting if people's characters are more than just stats on a page; i.e. they actually thought their background and personality through. Sometimes the interaction are hilarious or very driving for the eventual battles--builds a fantastically tense atmosphere.

>>53161641
I agree with everything you wrote except that to add that trying those other systems is the best way to find people of better taste and quality after graduating from entry level stuff like dungeons and dragons.

>>53163012
Been playing for years. What you say os logical, yes--but if a group can't survive at least a minute of straigh combat (10 rounds) they are a garbage group of adventurers.
Have you tried getting good?
I've ran and played in encounters that have lasted in-game no less than 40 minutes. Longest one I can remember, anyway. Might have been longer ones during large-scale battles.

>>53154734
I realized I hated the D20 system when I started playing any other system.

I basically just fucking hate the d20 for conflict resolution, as it runs into the problem of "your GM needs to arbitrate fucking everything, because your stats and rolls do not actually reflect how good you are at a thing".

I mean, the difference between the strongest man in the world and the weakest in the world, assuming all other things are equal, is less than a single d20.

Compare this to shadowrun, where the difference between weakest man and strongest man is one d6 vs a pile of d6es.

>>53154734
You're describing your dm. Not the system.

>>53162796
But its actually shit

>>53165460
An easy mistake to make, but if you look closely, it is actually a tabletop game, and not feces.

>>53165310
>I mean, the difference between the strongest man in the world and the weakest in the world, assuming all other things are equal, is less than a single d20.

And a whole bunch of modifiers?

The more people try to rationalize their hatred in this thread, the more I realize that only idiots seem to hate D&D.

>>53165491
>assuming all other things are equal
So, no.

>>53165509
That's still about -4 for the weakest man, and +5 or more for the strongest.

>>53165540
Yes. Less than half of a single d20, all together.

>>53165548
If they took a 10, the weakest man in the world could barely pass lifting something with DC 5 - a child's play - while the strongest guy could lift DC 15 - a heroic feat - or more. There is a fair bit of a difference.

Meanwhile, you need a big pile of dice to absolutely and accurately determine exactly how much stronger the other guy is. No one cares about that kind of detail.

>>53165583
I care about that kind of detail.
Specifically, I care about basic attributes and shit actually mattering.
Which, in a d20 system, they really don't seem to. The variance introduced by them is smaller than the randomizer.

>>53154864
Those two rounds can very often take three hours. Kill me please.

>>53165583
>while the strongest guy could lift DC 15 - a heroic feat - or more.

So the weakest man can do a heroic feat 1 (actually, 2) out of 20?

Wow, so weak.

>>53165870
If he really tries and is lucky as hell.

>>53154734
So... you have a bad GM and you're blaming the system?

>>53154734
It was when I realized will always have some kind of narrative impact, no rolls needed. Spells just work like fate-points or some other bullshit like that and there's just too many good options here. Even basic shit like create water gives more creative freedom than any skill I have on my sheet. That's not even getting into the good stuff like Stone Shape and others
Fuck that

>>53154734
can't you run away and then sneak past later?
Or use a magic spell to disguise yourself as an official?

>>53154734
About the same time i realized Rifts, WoD, FATE, and every other game was garbage because there is no such thing as a perfectly balanced, ultimate game system to solve every issue the GM ever has without relying on his judgement calls.

Yeah, you're a fucking retarded idiot with a bad GM, and you're probably an even worse player.

That is, you would be if you ever played a game.

>>53165938
And that's the weakest person. A step (okay, maybe 2 steps) above David Hawkins.

An average person (0) will do it 30% of the time. Almost 1 out of 3.

>>53154782
Rolls over roles eh?

>>53162430
>It sounds like you're unaware of red box Basic and blue box Expert.
which red book do you use?

>>53161641

Exactly right.

>>53166258
Honestly, this. It honestly kind of pisses me off sometimes that a person will blame a system for what is the GM's fuck up Even if its me that's doing the fucking up and pulling my punches way too much on a final boss fight

>>53154734
When AD&D was created. When everything required a roll to resolve.When diplomacy and cunning stopped being about how convincing a PLAYER sounded to the DM when making his character's verbal statement.

>>53170103
Thieves were a thing before AD&D, anon.

Long time ago. Got confirmed again tonight. Life is great.

>>53165870
you're arguing from simulationist POV. but d20 is predominatly gamist.

>>53154734
This is not a problem in the D&D games released by TSR.

>>53161223
I'd say they're on the lighter end of simulationist, really even though GNS theory is bullshit.

>>53154734
Any good game should have problems that can't be solved with diplomacy. The range of problems that can be solved with diplomacy is fairly narrow, all things considered.

>>53154734
>cunning
The game ends up being The Cunning Person Show, and the other players get pissy

>>53162300
>So, your homebrew bullshit that worked for 3.5 didn't work in 5e?
>And your friends can't enjoy combat unless it's mmo-style power-card spam?

Were you put on earth to heal the edition wars by writing opinions so bad that all of /tg/ would unite to crucify you?

>>53162405
>armor not giving DR

I've only ever seen the Armor as DR rule used once, and the DM apparently did it solely because he thought Monks and Fighters were too good in 3.PF.

Basically, he used that rule, and then also added a new weapon type called Ravager weapons. These basically just let the weapons ignore DR of any kind.

Literally every weapon-using enemy had these things. Ravager Swords, Hammer, Arrows, Fist-cloths, everything. Of course, we weren't allowed to use them. No means of crafting them existed, no store sold them, no amount of exploiting shady contacts could let us get our hands on them, and any attempt to loot them off the enemies with them was met with "No you don't."

Not even a reason, we just weren't allowed to loot them because he said so. Somehow he was surprised when we told him he wasn't DMing for us anymore.

>>53170815
End your existence.

>>53154734
But only WOTC D&D is garbage. TSR D&D is pretty tight.

>>53154794
It was still in print in 1999.

>>53154824
>shift in ownership
>shift in aesthetic
>shift in design philosophy that purposely jettisons 25+ years of history
>"arbitrary divider"

>>53154734
I made a lot of my own RPG systems and got pretty good at it - each system was better than the last. Then I played Risus and realized there was a vast distance between where I was and what was possible. It's not that making a game better game is impossible, so much as that it's really easy to add a bunch of rules and fail to do anything better than Risus.

And then I realized how many damn rules D&D has and how very barely better than Risus it is.

>>53154794
>D&D hasn't been in print since 1994.

3rd Edition didn't come up 'til 2000, dude.

>>53154809
>and didn't always end with a fight to the death

Check out this asshole, he needs a table and dice to tell him when his NPCs will break and run, or if they're hostile or not.

>>53175425
Dnd does combat better than risus

>>53175783
Yeah, but you could fit the entire rules of Risus plus your favorite dungeon crawling board game (mine's Catacombs) in the average D&D combat chapter.

>>53176165
how would that work?

>>53176886
You use Risus as a skill system and something else for combat.

D&D is a primarily combat-oriented game with a skill system bolted onto it to handle literally everything else. So you're probably already used to this sort of thing.

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It attracts Chads and trend-girls moreso than any other TTRPG. Its the entry-barrier into nerd culture and so many assholes pass through it and the bar for entry is so depressingly low that finding any D&D game of quality is akin to rolling a d100. Dungeons and Dragon is to Traditional Gaming what Call of Duty Black Ops was to Video Gaming.

>>53170815
Gamist also means that the mechanics have to be satisfying, and that (to me) means that the bonuses for differentiating characters should be at a satisfying level.

That it doesn't simulate real life is not a problem. That characters have a (relatively) hard time excelling in their chosen field, is.

TBF this only matters for the more heroic games, it's fine for dungeon dwelling gritty murderhobos.

It's not fine if it stays the same when the other half of the party is casting Wish, though.

>>53172345
d20 is predominantly gamist

>>53172356
the thing is: you don't get to decide what D&D is and what it ain't. the IP owners do.

>>53154734
It is class-based. And when I first heard about it, THAC0 was still a thing.

>>53177194
>That it doesn't simulate real life is not a problem.
it also doesnt make a serious attempt at simulating fantasy fiction. it's gamist.

>>53154734
When it went from basic to advanced.
Then when it went from advanced to 2nd ed.
Then when it went to d20, at which point I left and never went back.

>>53177100
>muh normies

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>>53154734
>You can't solve problems without murderhoboing abloo bloo
>Meanwhile in our campaign we made peace with the usually-considered-evil Kobolds by not fucking murderhoboing everything in sight

Thread should be called "When did you realise your DM was garbage?"

>>53177100
NORMIES STOP PLAYING MY TABLETOPS REEEEEEEE *foams at mouth and passes out*

>>53177914
That's not what gamist means.

>>53179351
Kobolds aren't "usually considered evil", they're almost always genuinely evil in a universe where evil is a tangible destructive force.

>>53179391
No, you're mixing them up with demons, undead, and 5e gnolls. Compared to that kobolds are just kind of semi-evil, no worse than a human serial killer or sociopathic bandit.

Perfectly capable of making peace with them or even find some decent folk among them.

>>53179380
well, it's easy to establish that it neither narrativist nor simulationist (lack of realism, no serious attempt at recreating genre fiction).

when we look at mechanics, HP Bloat is a clear gamist mechanic. the focus on class balance is likewise clearly gamist. the whole escalating magic item potency as you grow in level is clearly gamist. the entirety of Deendee spells is predominantly gamist. and on and on and on and on and on and on.

2e AD&D is the best rpg I've ever played. Drop the dumb stuff and keep the good and you have a robust system for fantasy games.
Been playing 2e since it came out in 89 and haven't looked back since.
The d20 system is complete shit, it makes every game feel the same with a paper thin veneer of setting laid on top.

>this thread again

if you have DnD so much why dont you just not play it or talk about it?

d20 skill checks have no statistical median range. That's an actual problem

>>53181071
So? Neither do d100s, yet people still wank on over Dark Heresy and its derivatives.

What is wrong with the mods?
Don't they know to delete troll/flame/bait threads like these?

>>53181084
You understand my meaning. 2d10 would be flatter and vary only in a slight percentage point for distribution

>>53181167
I prefer varying amounts of d6s myself: 3 or even 2 dice for relatively simple tasks, up to 5 for really hard ones.

>>53162924
Nope, not even the same person. Nice try though

>>53177978
>When it went from basic to advanced.
Basic and advanced were around at the same time.

>>53154734
Probably when I tried to get back into the hobby in 2011. I started with AD&D then dropped D&D because no one I knew wanted to play "nerd" shit. My reintroduction was 4e. I looked into 3.5/PF, but like 4e, it was like doing Maths homework, especially since both those editions had specific "builds" that rely on multiple splat books that trounced the shit in the player's handbooks.

I like 5e, but only because the rules are stream-lined and easy to pick up. But with the way people treat the Unearthed Arcana .pdfs, it looks like 5e might go the same route when there are more splats with more player optionsAnd I'm sure prestige classes are right around the corner which will change the way players design their characters for the worse.

>>53181883
>"builds" that rely on multiple splat books that trounced the shit in the player's handbooks.
A lot of people felt this way, though some of the strongest builds in both systems are phb-only. Some multiple-attack ranger-thing in 4E, and Druid 20 in 3.5. Don't know if that makes you feel any better.

> it was like doing Maths homework
Holy shit. 3.5 has rules for making a higher-level variant of a monster, increasing its HD, CR, and eventually size. And there are multiple layers of cascading stat changes that need special table lookups to make that shit happen. And then the final monster isn't actually balanced against any specific party anyway.

>>53154734
When I played other RPGs and discovered the greatness of WFRP 2nd edition.

>>53154734
>Spend an evening creating a character
>Rolled great strength
>Barbarian
>First session, go to break up a bar fight
>Peasants attack me
>Punch few of them through windows and walls
>Get beaten into a coma by 5 peasants because I can only target one enemy each round.
>My heirloom shit stolen
>Spend the better part of the session tracking it down and sucking cock to get it back
>Next session
>Party fucking around in a haunted house
>Furniture is alive
>Punch a few cupboards into submission
>Sit down to ignore the shitstorm going around
>Party is being attacked by an animated plate armour
>Sigh and go to help them out
>Armour rolls crit and cuts me in half from full HP
>fuckthisshit.jpg

I can handle a game fucking with you if you bite off more than you can chew, but if one bad roll can just wipe you out, that's just annoying.

>>53182925
>playing an edition where it takes all evening to make a character
That was your first mistake.

>>53182983
Sorry, I meant writing the backstory as well. It was 3.5e if I recall correctly.

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>>53181883
>no one I knew wanted to play "nerd" shit. My reintroduction was 4e. I looked into 3.5/PF, but like 4e, it was like doing Maths homework
>diving into nerd hobby
>disliking maths homework
GTFO

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>>53182068

>>53183005
Don't worry, if anything goes wrong in any edition of D&D ever someone will find a reason it's either your fault or the DM's fault.

>>53154864
5e combat does drag a bit depending on your players. Especially if they're casters and worry about saving spellpoints and all that.

>>53154734

I think the idea that people only become stronger in the world when they kill or beat others in combat to be important point within the setting itself.

>>53182925

So what you're saying is that you want to play on extra-easy mode?

Every edition from 3.0 onwards has already been too forgiving.

Weakling.

>>53184156
You're the "rules override fun" kind of guy, yeah? Because making a new character every few sessions is great fun, right?

>>53184181

D&D has terrible rules, and always has, but combat being too dangerous is not one of them. Almost all of my D&D experience has been in 2nd edition, and nobody was "making a new character every few sessions" unless they were playing like super-retards. Violence is supposed to be dangerous.

>>53184326
Entering combat and not surviving the first round because you were not expecting a lol crit to split you (who is also the tank of the party) in half is super-retard?

>>53184994
Obviously. Otherwise someone would have to admit that D&D sometimes does the wrong thing.

>>53154864
Fights in the 5e games I play last for hours because every turn takes several minutes, there's always at least 10 or 20 turns in a round (five players and lots of enemies because enemies ALWAYS come in a horde), and fights generally last for 6 rounds or more due to enemies always fighting to the death.

>>53183340
>>53185049
Yeah, I think I'm starting to see a pattern here.

>>53185097
>enemies always fighting to the death

Do they seriously do this in 5e? Are there no morale rules anymore at all?

>>53184181
It certainly can be.

>>53182068
Easily as busted as any edition of DnD

>>53185128
No morale rules. Injuries heal after 1 hour of resting, infections aren't a thing, and HP values are so fucked that you have no idea if the rogue about to shank you in an alley has 10 HP or 100 until you're soaked in your own blood after having beaten him to death with every meta resource at your disposal over the course of an hour.

>>53162300
long time 5e player here, still enjoying a couple of 5e campaigns with my friends
5e is a steaming pile of dog shit, there's no shame in admitting it

>these trolls are STILL bumping their little thread

Why? It's almost as bad as a faggot pride parade.

>>53184156
>Forgiving
When a single roll, nomatter what you did, can instantly kill you, that's stupid, it removes player agency

>GM forces us through railing to a place
>Single nice roll
>Instantly dead
At least fucking let me make a mistake an die because of it

And I'm not even that guy but suffered that kind of stuff so many times
>Oh sorry, he crited, you're instantly dead because you're 3rd level or lower
>Oh, sorry, it's a trap, you're instantly dead because you're 3rd level or lower
I hate 3.PF because in absolutely every game I've been is literally Russian roulette till you reach 3rd level

>>53185378
Infections were never a thing and any attempt to treat hit point damage as realistic injury is doomed.

Not that I've ever played 5e or have any interest in defending, but let's be realistic about what D&D has historically been.

>>53184994
I'm not a fan of D&D but there really isn't anything wrong with this. Combat is lethal. If you did the same thing to your opponent, would you be complaining, or would you just think it's awesome? People complain that D&D is turning into superheroes, but then you see what happens when a player actually does die anticlimactically in a combat situation, and you can understand why the devs would take that approach.

>>53186255
Stop making stupid decisions then. Fight smart. Don't take chances.

>>53186395
It sounds like the GM was shit at encounter balance, throwing suits of armor at first level characters and swarming a first level character with enemies.

>>53186383
The oponent doesn't have to spend 1 hour making another char, plus another making 2 pages of background though, is an NPC with literally no time invested (unless BBEG).

Also your argument has nothing to do with what that anon said, removing 1 roll insta kill doesn't remove lethality.

Stop taking this idiot's bait already. No one could genuinely be this stupid.

Just make it so that fucking mooks don't get to crit. Pretty sure it's an actual rule.

>>53186497
But the argument is why should it be removed? I can understand being upset to die to something cheap like that early on, but let's look at the alternative. How fun would it be knowing that there was no chance of random death because your DM / the rules wouldn't allow it? To think, "something bad can't instantly happen and kill me" because that's what the rules say? I think that robs a lot of tension from the game. Honestly I'd say the real flaw is that it takes too long to make a character. Your backstory can always be written after the session ends.

>>53186383
>>53186395
So don't do any combat before levelling up a few times? Playing stupid and/or being vulnerable could mean not going to pick a fight with an orcish warband or a dragon if you just started adventuring. It shouldn't mean "Oh lol, this fairly average enemy just oneshotted you". Like >>53186255 said, every combat is russian roulette, if you wanted that, then go to a reenactment or a LARP or something. A campaign where everyone dies faster than main characters in Game of thrones is not fun, it's tedious and annoying. If it had been that my character was wounded before the encounter with one leg in the grave and went up to that enemy and got split in half, fair enough, stupid and risky move. Getting nuked from orbit out of the blue is not stupid as there's literally no winning move.

The DM could have handwaved the crit or something, but he was really stuck in the rules.
tl;dr either the DM should bend the rules as they see fit or the rules should be slightly different to avoid instadeath.

>>53159284
Social combat the way Fate does it is fun.

Trolls really need to stop trolling trolls already.

This is easily the worst thread on /tg/ right now.

>>53186602
Nah, there's also that petrification fetish thread.

>>53186555
Hey, I can into slippery slopts too...so what you say is making everybody have 1 HP and dying at 0 HPs nomatter level? ok, anyother way would rob the game the tension.

>>53186555
People expect a lot of fights in a D&D game and that's certainly what the rulebooks suggest you do. If you can't expect to get through a session without fighting it's kind of bullshit that you can make all the right decisions and still get instagibbed.

There's absolutely a place for games with realistic violence where you stand a good chance of dying whenever weapons are drawn. They're usually games where violence is rare and used as a last resort.

>>53186555
>How fun would it be knowing that there was no chance of random death because your DM / the rules wouldn't allow it?
It'd be a lot more fun because it means you're allowed to invest yourself in the character without worrying about them randomly dying to a mook-tier enemy like peasants. It also means the GM can play with tension by having criticals in play during climactic fights/dramatic scenes. It's a win/win for everyone, as long as you enjoy that style of game.

>>53186538
That's what I do while GMing, I try to avoid punishing players for randomly shit rolls in combat. If they've been getting their asses blasted and come back for seconds, it's their choice and risk. Otherwise it just seems like bad GMing to me.
Outside of combat the bad rolls are great as they create much more interesting scenarios, not instakill your PCs.

>>53161098
That's how I've been doing it but lately I think it's just a drag on the game.

Roll dice to see if the NPC is impressed by how beautiful or frightening you are, by all means, but when it comes to diplomacy and bluffing I'd rather just let things play out as the conversation and common sense dictates.

>>53186666
I started doing something similar, specially when you take into account that the GM rolls more dice than the players so I get more crits than them.

>>53186666
Holy shit, I got satanquads. See >>53186383 , even the dark lord thinks enemy crits are bullshit.

>>53186538
>>53186666 (checked)
>>53186725
Is this a rule in the DMG somewhere?

>>53186741
>Enemy crits
More like mook crits
See orks for example (in 3.PF) motherfuckers have falchion as starting weapon, 17+ is insta dead for any lvl 2 or lower PC if you face them

>>53186592
>The 'proper' way to play a game is run away from everything that has a possible risk no matter how much the GM really wants you to fight those giant rats. Then you end up that asshole who forces the GM to seperate time out of the game for your character to go pick turnips.

Nah.

>>53181601
They weren't released simultaneously though, dumbass. Hence after playing Basic, I went to Advanced when it was first released.

>>53179429
Oh yes, you're right. It makes perfect sense to make peace with an actual entire tribe of sociopathic serial killers. I'm sure that'll last.

>>53187033
Are you even reading what was written?

>>53186745
No. Mooks get to crit, because sometimes mooks land lucky shots, and part of being a mature RPG geek is learning to deal with this basic fact of existence rather than whining about it.

>>53187082
The French have been at peace with the Germans for years now.

The sociopathic serial killers in this metaphor are not intended to be the Germans. Seriously, go read a translation of the French national anthem sometime. It can basically be summed up as "Blood for the blood god".

>>53187119
I think you're taking RPGs too seriously. People can like other styles of play, and they aren't necessarily wrong or bad if they differ from yours. If you don't have fun with them, that's fine, and you can give reasons for why you don't like them, but calling them immature and whiny because they don't like the style of play you like is immature itself.

>>53187082
If there's a 99% odds for anything at all, player characters in an average game usually manage to hit the 1%.

>>53185761
greetings to Renton, how is life at WOTC?

>>53186592
>tl;dr either the DM should bend the rules as they see fit or the rules should be slightly different to avoid instadeath.
but maybe he saw fit to let you die? you realize that the lethality of a game is largely a matter of taste with differing outlooks?

>>53186602
i like these threads though

>>53186555
The problem is the completely whacky power scale 3.PF has. As someone else pointed out, until around level 3/4 you're basically in Rusty Dagger Shanktown, death comes easy and due to having low resources can be quite gritty.
Around lvl 5-6 it's a kind of normal fantasy stuff, but around lvl 7-8 when 4th lvl spells and bigger class features come around, it turns into what is basically a superhero system but with a fantasy dressing. Rocket tag also really picks up again at those levels, but unlike the first few levels, it comes down to the high power players now wield
It can make for some really disjointed play experiences.

>>53187163
But we're not talking about gaming in general, we're talking about a specific game, Dungeons & Dragons, and how its rules intend it to be played and why the rules are set down that way.

You're, like, complaining that football doesn't let anyone but the goalie use his hands. There is a good reason behind this.

In the case of D&D, it is intended that mooks will lands critical hits, because that kind of good luck on their part (and bad luck on the players' part) is part of the D&D experience.

The solution, if you don't like it, is "find another game" or "change it for your specific campaign but accept that this is not how most D&D games will be run", not "complain". Not unless you can demonstrate that a majority of the player base dislikes that mooks can critical hit, anyway.

>>53187438
>You're, like, complaining that football doesn't let anyone but the goalie use his hands.
I'm not complaining about that, though. I asked if it was a rule, and you said (in a rather uncouth way) that it wasn't.

Yes, people can houserule the game. Yes, without the houserule, that is how D&D is intended to be played. I agree, people should find a different game that suits them, or use a generic system to run a game or use a toolkit to build a game that they will enjoy. But if people want to play D&D like that, it's fine.

>>53187438
>>In the case of D&D, it is intended that mooks will lands critical hits
Since you're talking about mooks, I'm going to assume you mean disposable minions, so minions from 4e - and minions don't really get anything out of critting in 4e, except the guaranteed hit, so you're actually wrong

>>53187438
>But we're not talking about gaming in general, we're talking about a specific game, Dungeons & Dragons, and how its rules intend it to be played and why the rules are set down that way.

Just saying "Dungeons & Dragons" is not very specific at all. There are about ten different versions of the damn game. Which one of them do you mean?

>>53187494
Doesn't matter, in all of them, mooks can land critical hits.

>>53187493
And automatically hitting on a 20 is an intended part of the game, even for mooks.

>>53187485
Yeah, sure, it's fine to run a game like that.

A half dozen or so pots on a message board complaining about mooks being able to land critical hits? Not nearly as cool. The former is adapting the game to your personal style; the latter is bitching to people online looking for co-bitches to support you as you bitch at people who like the game as-is.

Not all of them were you, I'm sure, but it was still a thing in this thread. A confederation of bitches bitching.

>>53187594
>Doesn't matter, in all of them, mooks can land critical hits.

I don't think you've played half of those ten or so versions of D&D.

>>53187594
Well, the mods can always delete bait threads, but then all we'd be left with is generals and art threads. Consider that posting in these threads bumps them, which puts them in the first row of the catalog, or on the front page of the board. It's better to just hide them and ignore them.

>>53187044
Moldvay came out after AD&D existed. Just admit you didn't know the two were being published and added to contemporaneously and move on.

>>53187594
>Doesn't matter, in all of them, mooks can land critical hits.
Critical hits didn't exist in OD&D and at least one version of Basic.

>>53189164
I can't find a mention of them in 1e either, but then, the 1e book is such a mess I might just not be looking at the right place.

I know for a fact it was an optional rule in 2e.

>>53185128
They're optional rules in the DMG for morale. I use them because fighting to the death should only be reserved for undead, golems, fanatics, and other creatures who have nothing else to live for.

>>53154734
if you and your opponent are about to fight, and you're both aware of the other and know a fight is about to break out, the person who goes second is still flat footed, there are people who cannot accept any alternative to this.
even palladium is not this bad.

>>53189612
Yeah, I mean it makes perfect sense most folks wouldn't want to stick around until death. It sounds just weird that 5e would specifically state otherwise.

>>53189651
5e doesn't say creatures will fight to the death unless an adventure module specifically says so. There's nothing about morale in the player's handbook, and I don't think there has been since third edition?

>>53189685
Morale rules are in the dungeon master guide as they're a tool for the dungeon master to use. Imposing them arbitrarily on the players would be a pretty significant breach of layer agency.

( Although I wish players did retreat more often , it doesn't feel great but it's certainly better than a TPK!)

>>53189733
>Although I wish players did retreat more often
That's on the players, sadly. A lot of them expect beatable encounters tailored to their level unless that expectation is already set.
There's also the argument that most monsters have a base speed that's greater than the average PC's movement speed but it's up to the dungeon master to adjudicate whether or not all enemies are bloodthirsty suicide death cultists that fight until they die and hunt characters tirelessly.

>>53177577
>Some autistic trillionaire buys out Burger King
>Replaces whopper with shit on a bun
>(you): YOU DON'T GET TO DECIDE WHAT A WHOPPER IS, THE IP OWNERS DO

>>53154734
>I failed at a thing and this means the game is bad
HP bloat can be a problem but dont come here bitching about you failing on a roll.

>>53161641
The least biased post in the thread.

>>53190092
It didn't replace whopper with anything.
Now whoopers have a new shit-based recipe.
Get it?

>>53155865

Yeah, that thread surprised me with much more consensus than I'm used to with /tg/.... Sadly this here is nothing but bait.

>>53189649
Just play a good edition.

>>53191996
What are the good D&D editions?

when I found wod. after that dnd just couldn't compare to the fun I had playing a Mage campaign.

>>53192022
There's obviously some subjectivity to it, but I personally like Basic the best (B/X or BECMI, either is fine).

>>53192816
Could you give me a breakdown of why you find Basic to be the best edition?

>>53154734
D&D has problems, but it remains the game most likely to be played by actual human beings.

>>53190092
>implying the whopper isn't already shit

When I tried 2e and realized the "A" in AD&D actually meant something.