Tolkien made a mistake. Forces of dynamic attachment that allow

Tolkien made a mistake. Giant spiders aren't fucking real.

>>53125801
I think there's a quote from one of JRR's letters that works well here: "Shut the fuck up, you cockmongling autist".

>>53125801
your mom made a mistake

you

>>53125801
It's literally fantasy.

NEEEEEEEEEEEEERD

>>53125801
Shelob isn't a regular spider

>>53125801
>muh square cube law
>exoskeletons don't scale up
nigga who the fuck cares

>>53125801
>applying real world physics to fantasy settings
Weak bait, omae.

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>fantasy can't be fantastical

>>53125986
Unless I completely skipped a chapter or something, I don't recall Ancalagon the Black in the Silmarillion at all. Glaurung was the Dragon that Turin slew at the end, but Ancalagon isn't ringing a bell at all?

But it does scale to that size as Shelob can walk on walls. You can't argue against the empirical evidence anon.

>>53126007
You might remember him as the bigass dragon that crushed the three volcanic peaks of Thangorodrim when he was slain by Earendil.

>>53125801
wtf I hate spider-man now

>>53125801
Show me the quote where Tolkien described Shelob walking on the walls, you movie pleb.

>>53126044
I must have missed this somehow because it's not ringing a bell. My memory is dreadful but at least some of that should ring a bell

>>53125801
It also wouldnt be able to breathe because its too large to get oxygen to its organs with the current levels of O2 in the atmosphere.

This is a bait thread and we're all biting. My turn.

Shelob is literally magical, she's the daughter of a fucking anomaly in the fabric of the universe itself. She can cling to fucking walls.

>>53125801
>>53126091
Does he even have Shelob clinging to walls in the novel? I don't remember that... she just "descends" on them. As described, she could easily just be hanging from a bit of her super-web.

Honestly, OP, it seems like a secondary consideration next to the physical considerations of supporting an exoskeleton that size.

>>53126085
We can't possibly know what the atmosphere oxygen levels in middle earth are.

>itsmagiciaintgottaexplainshit.gif

>>53126226
Considering that the fauna and animals resemble the fauna and life of medieval Europe we can assume it has oxygen levels similar to our own. Considering the prevalence of smaller mammalian species like Gobins and Hobbits, it might even be lower.

>>53126226
>We can't possibly know what the atmosphere oxygen levels in middle earth are.
It seems like something we could extrapolate by using the largest creatures described in Tolkien's works as references.

>>53126265
>Dragons spewed jets of oxygen.

>>53126265
>>53126264
Huge ass fucking dragons?
Huge ass fucking elephants?
Trees that dwarf those americano trees?
Giant trolls?
Huge eagles?

>>53126264
>>53126265
so which is it then?

on the one hand that mountain-sized dragon was pretty big, on the other hand those hobbits weren't

>>53126292
So?
High oxygen environment enables larger life forms, it doesn't force everything to become huge.

>>53126288
Huge ass Elephants and Trees does lean on higher oxygen actually, especially the trees. Maybe you're right. Perhaps there is a high enough oxygen content on Middle Earth to keep Shelob from suffocating.

>>53126292
Mammals are more adaptive to that kind of thing because we respirate through our lungs instead of through surfaces like skin and leaves, that lets us survive at higher and lower oxygen levels relative to other types of life.

So, taking the giant trees into effect, and the giant bugs we see throughout the setting I concede, the o2 levels in middle earth must be rather high.

>>53126264
>>53126265
>It seems like something we could extrapolate by using the largest creatures described in Tolkien's works as references
Awww, we're in it now, kids. Get out your goddamn bio textbooks!

I fucking love tg.

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>>53126091
Whats'ername's an anomaly?

>>53126226
Anon, you think this thing can breathe normally, regardless of the oxygen levels?

>>53126305
The lifeforms in the universe were specifically CREATED, they didn't evolve.

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>>53126327
>Awww, we're in it now, kids. Get out your goddamn bio textbooks!
No, we're not. The world was sung into existence and it's all magical. Oxygen levels are quite clearly irrelevant, considering the massive size of some of the beasts.

>>53125816
pfffffft

>>53126328
Them being created is irrelevant, they still reproduce and we can only assume follow most of our physics.

>>53126327
>>53126328
>>53126346
>>53126324
You're going about this the wrong way.
We know
>The world is magic
and
>It's implied Men later become the men we know today, so Oxygen levels are probably similar

We can estimate the Energy necessary to synthesize Oxygen from our atmosphere. This allows us the estimate the Energy output of magic itself. We can finally, accurately stat magic!

>>53126328
>The lifeforms in the universe were specifically CREATED, they didn't evolve.
True, but they still need to survive post-creation. Kinda tough if you can't respirate efficiently.

>>53126288
I'm actually with this guy. Trees and hellophants don't matter, but the eagles and dragons are a good indicator of O2 levels (and other stuff too). Flying animals usually exist right at the physical limits of an what an environment can support.

>>53126328
Arthropods breathe via direct respiration through the carapace. This means the larger the bug the longer it takes oxygen to dillude to the center mass and organs of the bug. Unless the atmosphere of Middle Earth was like 90% o2 that thing could not breathe.

>>53126324
Size of plants and amount of oxygen in atmosphere is related, like a circle.
more oxygen>larger animals>more CO2>more plants>more oxygen

Where does the oxygen come from? Are there amazone jungle-like areas? Do Ents produce more oxygen than they consume?

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>>53126346
Is that a motherfucking airship?

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>>53126350
>they still reproduce and we can only assume follow most of our physics.
Yeah, no. Eating two trees of light and a bunch of gems don't turn a spider into a massive creature that scares even the source of all evil in the world. There's no reason to assume that the creatures function by the rules of our world, as the creatures survival itself is in direct contradiction to them.

>>53126366
>magic is based on oxygen
Do tell me how Ilúvatar and the Ainur sung the world into existence from a void.

>>53126378
>True, but they still need to survive post-creation. Kinda tough if you can't respirate efficiently.
Who says they need oxygen? Ungoliant herself could not have survived at her size were the rules of the world the same as ours.

>>53126379
Yeah, so either Ungoliant and her spawn, Shelob included, do not need oxygen, or the rules are not the same.

>>53126400
It's a boat.

>>53126391
Ents are plants, therefor they breathe CO2 and exhale O2. They could be the settings source of high O2 levels, but more likely they just contribute to it.

>>53126400
To my understanding it's a boat with one of the Silmarills embedded on the prow. It becomes a shooting star later on

>>53126400
No, I mean yes. Well, that's Venus.

>>53126391
>Do Ents produce more oxygen than they consume?
I'd assume that ents are, on average, oxygen producers, since they tend to just hang around and photosynthesize most of the time. But during times of high activity (throwing boulders, stepping on orcs, etc), they probably switch to being oxygen consumers.

Typical plant biology just can't explain the amount of energy expended. Their muscles have to be aerobic.

>>53126427
Or, you know, they use magic for energy.

>>53126419
Damn Tolkien mythos is dumb.
Why would a dragon the size of a mountain care about the affairs of mortals?
That'd be like us getting involved in the politics of fleas or termites.

>>53126419
It's on Eärendil's brow.

>>53126379
You're supposing they have the same biology than their real life counterpart. They could have another respiratory system for what we know.

>>53125801
Considering Shelob's mother is a primal force of darkness that spun webs of pure unlight rather than an actual spider, I highly doubt Shelob cares about physics.

>>53126420
It would be a lot easier to fly on venus thanks to the denser atmosphere. More like swimming. There are the issues of being cooked alive and dissolved in acid by the atmosphere, but I think we can handwave that. Eagles explained.

>>53126427
This is a very good point, only aerobic respiration could allow for such high energy consumption. Honestly Id guess they do both, but this could be a good reason why they dont like to be very active. Its probably uncomfortable for them, like when you're running and your body starts burning lactic acid instead of oxygen and your muscles hurt.

>>53126415
Plants breathe oxygen. Old trees produce less than they consume, ents would probably be that way too. Ent genocide was probably good for the environment now that I think about it.

>>53126437
Because the dragon is a primordial spirit and the primordials were created pretty much to fawn over and prepare the world for the mortals. Only Melkor wanted power for himself, so he created evil things, corruption etc. and set to motion everything bad that's occured in the world.

>>53126446
Based on the design and description we can assume they have biology similar to other arthropods.

>>53126458
The ship and his captain, Anon.
They ARE Venus.

>>53126435
>Or, you know, they use magic for energy.
hmmm... nah. Seems implausible.

>>53126446
>You're supposing they have the same biology than their real life counterpart. They could have another respiratory system for what we know.
I mean, they can talk, so...

Seems like it would be tricky with those mouthparts and no ability to consciously exhale.

>>53126437
All dragon's wills are from Morgoth directly.
They can be seen as an extension of his mind.

>>53126472
Man I empathize with him, if I was told by my daddy that I had to prepare the world to be inhabited by ants Id be like wtf Im way cooler and more great than them, Ill take this world for myself.

>>53126465
>Plants breathe oxygen. Old trees produce less than they consume, ents would probably be that way too. Ent genocide was probably good for the environment now that I think about it.
There's the basis for a brilliant demotivational poster meme here.

>>53126406
>magic is based on oxygen

Nah
>Big creatures need X oxygen
>the atmosphere has only Y
>Delta E to create X-Y Oxygen is the energy output of magic, as Kankra et al don't use spells

>>53126491
>hmmm... nah. Seems implausible.
Yeah, a magical world, sung into existence with magic, with species created with magic, with magic being an active part in the daily life of the world, with magical artifacts here and there, with dragons and balrogs and Ents created by Yavanna herself to defend her other creations, there's no way the latter could use magic for their own purpose.

>>53126515
>Big creatures need X oxygen
Says who?

Elves suck each other off for eternity without ever catching aids.

That's way more implausible.

>>53126465
But who said middle earth need more oxygen or less CO2?

>>53126522
>Says who?
Science.

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>>53126500
Yeah and because you're such a prissy little faggot, you lose your place in the world and get sealed for good outside of the world, until one you come crawling back to daddy, apologising for what you did.

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>>53126533
Oh, do tell me, how do the dragons fly in the universe? Through what exact machinations was the world sung into existence? What fuels a Balrog's flames and what enables magic? How did Aüle create the dwarves? Did they all just breathe in a shit-ton of oxygen?

>>53126564
>a Balrog's flames
What. the fuck. IS. a Balrog.

It's one of the most vaguely described creatures I know, and what we have contradict each other.

>>53126564
>Did they all just breathe in a shit-ton of oxygen?
What would it take for you to be less retarded and not get anon's theory so amazingly ass backwards?

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>>53126577
They have fiery weapons and are possibly maiar linked to fire.

>>53126593
For him to stop trying to apply mundane, non-magical explanations without reason onto a very much magical world, with magical creatures and magic used as power and energy.

>>53126615
>For him to stop trying to apply mundane, non-magical explanations
Yeah, nah, you're still proving yourself clueless and arbitrarily contrarian. I mean, damn, son. That's impressive.

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>>53126676
No u.

>>53126328
Ungoliant, as I recall, wasn't directly created by anybody. She crawled out through fractures in reality caused by all the shitfuck conflict between the valar from somewhere nobody really knows anything about.

She beat Morgoth in a straight fight and would have killed and eaten him if he didnt cry for his balrogs like a bitch.

>>53126726
>Ungoliant, as I recall, wasn't directly created by anybody. She crawled out through fractures in reality caused by all the shitfuck conflict between the valar from somewhere nobody really knows anything about.
Yeah, she crawled in from the void, which would mean she's either something made by Ilüvatar, or some kind of voidbeast, that just existed alongside the Creator. A true primordial.

>>53126726
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGptm3wheK0

What a pansy.

>>53126695
u 1st, m80.

Just try acknowledging that you didn't "get it" the first time, and have been coasting on pure stubbornness since then.

>>53126746
The celestial and metaphysical stuff is some of the best parts of tolkien's writing. It feels like the perfect balance between vague poetic actual folklore cosmologies and the more modern settings with lots of rules and logic.

>>53125801
shelob is a spider like demon from the void

its not a spider

>>53126778
Still not an argument.

>>53126796
No, Ungoliant is from the void. She had a shit-ton of babies and Shelob's the last one to bother the world.

>>53126784
Well, he did get a lot of inspiration from actual, existing mythologies after all.

>>53126799
Still being stubborn, still talking to me when all I did was laugh at your mistake.

>>53126078
If I remember correctly, it was something along the line "He was the greatest Dragon ever and then he was killed by eagles."

>>53126676
>>53126615
Arbitrary contrarianism was the entire point of the thread from the outset, reread the OP. Anon just wants to be silly about a fantasy setting, if its really bothering you you can just leave the thread, but look at the OP and remember what you were getting in to when you clicked on it.

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>>53126842
Yeah. My mistake was never pointed out or corrected, so I'm just fine and dandy repeating
>not an argument
over and over again.

Not an argument.

>>53126874
Yeah it was. Each time the theory was framed as "magic requires oxygen".

>>53126937
Also "magical creatures don't necessarily require oxygen".
>magic requires oxygen
Was simply an offshoot of that, me asking somewhat relevant questions that never received any real answers.

>>53126850
I remember something like that. Typical Tolkien.

>>53126969
Yeah, I can only assume the anon who came up with the idea saw what a shitshow this was turning into and left with something better to do.

>>53126543
Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven.

>>53126985
What. No.
You have a lot on the guy in his space boat crewed by angels. The dragon gets a bit too.

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>>53125810

Tolkein made a mistake.

Spiders are cute! CUTE!

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>>53127022
Super cute

>>53126437
>>53126472

Ancalagon was bred my Morgoth as his greatest weapon against the Valar. He only cares about the affairs of mortals because he was bred to serve the Dark Lord. He isn't some sort of spirit, merely an enormous descendant of Glaurung.

>>53126366
What would the oxygen be synthesized from? nitrogen? Hydrogen? Helium?

>>53127010
I meant I remember it being only quickly mentioned, but it has been years.

>>53127178
Im sorry anon but I can't even tell if your speaking Engrish anymore. What's a Glaurung? Who is Valar? What are Morgoths?

>>53127380
lurk moar

>>53127380
what the fuck are you doing here then?

>>53126264
>Considering that the fauna and animals resemble the fauna and life of medieval Europe we can assume it has oxygen levels similar to our own.

Cape universes produce humanoid creatures in abundance even though we know for a fact that many biological processes and pretty much all of physics don't work anything like they do in our universe.

Then again, a fictional universe of sentinent, star-travelling superamobea wouldn't have much appeal to plebs.

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>>53125801
Tolkien made a mistake. Spiders don't drink the sap of trees.

>>53125801
Shelob isn't a spider, just some eldritch abomination in the rough shape of one.

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>>53126264
>medieval
Middle-earth is a late classical era world at best, you're not going to find more complex armor than chainmail and skull caps even among the dwarves and elves.

>>53125801
I don't think even scientists knew about that when Tolkien wrote it.

Its like calling out a story about the moon written in the 1800's for having a breathable atmosphere.

>>53125801

Let me introduce you to >>53126346
Ancalagon the Black, a dragon so large his head sticks out into the layer of atmosphere that is so rarified humans suffocate, a dragon so large that his weight is greater than that of mountain ranges, and a wingspan so large that if he beat his wings once the local atmosphere would be blasted into space.

Now take your realism and get the fuck out of /tg.

>>53128150
but...but Dc80 escape checks, and spider wombs, and diaper of holding flamethrowers, and this http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/9434393/

>>53128248
>spider wombs
Now you made me remember echidna wars and how the arachne eats you through her vagina.

>>53126226
As per Tolkiens concept of secondary creation middle earth is literally earth at a different point in its history so we know fairly accurately what the atmosphere is like.

>>53126533
>Science
>the Lord of the rings.

You're either trolling or a massive retard. Either way you should definitely kill yourself.

>>53125801

it's a fantasy world no?

>>53128651
As much a fantasy world as the very earth you live in is.

>>53128026
Gondor wore full harness plate. This is directly stated in LotR.

Numenoreans were well ahead of their time, their technology makes for a mixed-history setting.

And that's not even mentioning the dark forces' love of the mechanical, the gunpowder used by the wizards etc etc.

It's steeped in aesthetics from a wide swathe of historical periods, early medieval moreso than any other. Quit being a fuckboy.

>>53128680
I didn't know there were dark lords with cursed elf armies and fire-breathing dragons in real life.

>>53126437
>mortals
er.

>>53128740
>Gondor wore full harness plate. This is directly stated in LotR.
Proofs.

>>53128740
Closest you have is Imrahill's hauberk and that dead southron's corslet, which were likely also mail.

>>53128759
The dark lords all were defeated, the elves fucked off, the dwarves just kinda went underground and never actually reproduced and there's plenty of myths of dragon-slaying to lay low the rest of Glaurung's spawn.
The werewolves and vampires apparently survived.

>>53125801
>he doesn't know about Shelob's glue glands
When she wants to walk on a wall she secretes glue from her leg tips. When she wants to stop she secretes a solvent that makes her unsticky again.

>>53126526
Not really. Since they're in an isolated system there's nowhere for them to get AIDS from. Now if they also introduced filthy humans to their sex pool, then they would be in danger.

>>53128796
>>53128865
>"And last and proudest, Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth, kinsman of the Lord, with gilded banners bearing his token of the Ship and the Silver Swan, and a company of knights in full harness riding grey horses.”

http://www.red-wyverns.org.uk/full-harness.html

>>53126078
He only appears in like, one chapter, so it's not that surprising

Also I never thought Ancalagon was supposed to be that big, I always just figured Earendil hit him hard enough to shatter the peaks. Like how Cu Chulainn was cutting off mountaintops with his sword and stuff. Not because he was big, but because he was hardcore.

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>>53129186
>tolkien invented anime

>>53128488
I wonder what Tolkien would've thought about climate change

You know I really don't remember there being any reference to Ancalagon being as fucking massive as the people in this thread are saying.
I know he's supposed to be the biggest dragon but Glaurung was small enough to land on a bridge over a moat and died to a single sword stab right? Unless I'm misremembering something.

Wasn't he only mentioned in like two sentences anyway?

>>53129000
This is either a thing unique to Dol-Amroth or not as plated as you imagine since in the very article you link it mentions that full harness varies from mail and a little plate (likely just vambraces in this case) to the fully armored knights of our medieval period.
I think it's the former because why wouldn't Gondor have equipped their King with such armor if they had it? Especially since he was marching towards the gates of a very real hell.

>>53125801
Calm your tits G.R.R.

>>53129193
Seriously, people, read the Sil. It's all in there, even his waifu.

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>>53129285
I didn't know Edith was there.

>>53129324
She stars in the best story in the Silmarillion, friend.

>>53129389
Turin's marvelous misadventures were better.

>>53126378
>True, but they still need to survive post-creation. Kinda tough if you can't respirate efficiently.

Ungoliant and her spawn were spirit creatures. The physical body is just a projection of their essential spiritual nature. They were locked into those forms by their own actions but the physical body wasn't constrained by biomechanics any more than the Balrog was by thermodynamics, the Ring by optics, or the Ulairi by the many puzzles of their own semicorporeality.

In fact, given her alignment with The Shadow and its rebellion against Eru Illuvatar, I'd say that violating its physical laws alongside the moral ones is a plus. The less natural, the less redolent of its Creator.

>>53127008
Heck with Tolkien, MILTON made a mistake.

>>53131007
That's weird, illivatar just takes human souls beyond the world and out of his control. It's not really clear where they end up.

>>53126615
not possibly ARE maiar linked to fire

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>>53125801
Thanks for reminding me that I need to look at pictures of spiders and insects to help get over my fear according to my therapist.

I'm totally cheating by looking at pictures of jumping spiders though.

Shelob was born during the Elder Days, to the spider-like demon Ungoliant, who mated with (and devoured) the spider-creatures of the Ered Gorgoroth. She dwelt for many years in Nan Dungortheb with her countless brothers and sisters, even after Ungoliant ventured elsewhere.
Shelob fled from ruin (apparently the War of Wrath) and established her lair high in the mountains of Mordor at least in the first centuries of the Second Age, before Sauron claimed that land as his own. She mated with her offspring which she slew, and her descendants were to be seen in Ephel Dúath and Mirkwood.
Shelob fed off with all living things, such as Elves and Men, but as these became scarce in the area, she fed upon orcs. Sauron would sometimes send her captured prisoners for whom he had no further use and amuse himself watching how she played with her prey. Even though they did not communicate, Sauron and Shelob understood each other. She served as a secure guardian of the pass of Cirith Ungol to prevent any intruders from entering the dark land.
While looking for the One Ring, Gollum was trapped by her, but he managed somehow to communicate with her and promised to bring her more food if she released him. Indeed, Gollum (whom the orcs of the Tower of Cirith Ungol call "Shelob's Sneak") brought Samwise Gamgee and Frodo Baggins near her Lair while seeking Mount Doom.
While put off by the Phial of Galadriel in the tunnels, she intercepted them again outside and attacked Frodo, stinging him into a death-like coma. Sam managed to defeat her by letting her impale herself upon Sting when she tried to crush him under her massive body and using all power of the Phial of Galadriel to blind her. Wounded, she fled to her lair and was not seen for the remainder of Lord of the Rings.
Thinking Frodo dead, Sam took the One Ring from him and left his body behind, but discovered later that Shelob's venom was not intended to kill its victims but only to render them unconscious and keep their meat fresh.

>>53132001
Why are you afraid of itty bitty critty?

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>>53125986
>glaurung was killed by a sword to the gut
>he's that absurdly huge
I hope the faggot who made this meme picture dies of AIDS.

>>53127380
Why are you commenting in a Tolkien thread?

>>53127533
>Then again, a fictional universe of sentinent, star-travelling superamobea wouldn't have much appeal to plebs.
Speak for yourself.

>>53131045
He eats them. "Illuvatar" is just quenya for "star travelling super amoeba".

>>53127817
Why is Morgoth in his Dark Lord form here? Wasn't he in his "i'm totes a good guy now boys, believe me" form when he fucked up the trees?

>>53129186
>Like how Cu Chulainn was cutting off mountaintops with his sword and stuff. Not because he was big, but because he was hardcore.
That wasn't Chulainn. That was Fergus.

>>53132364
>catholic ever portraying god as bad

>>53132598
The Valar are god and even though only one of them is evil, they do fuck up and do some retarded shit at the beginning.

>>53129186
Or it was purposeful fantastical literary language that is not actually being literal.

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>>53131007
They end up in the Timeless Halls, with Illuvatar and Mr. grumpy, who is still in time out for blasting punk music while his sibling tried to perform their orchestra piece.

>>53129186
>I always just figured Earendil hit him hard enough to shatter the peaks. Like how Cu Chulainn was cutting off mountaintops with his sword and stuff. Not because he was big, but because he was hardcore.
You're right, but he broke a mountain so HURR DURR HE MUST BE DA PLANET!

>>53125801
That's a fucking stupid question.
The important question is if Shelob had to pay taxes to Sauron.

>>53126850
>He was the greatest Dragon ever and then he was killed by eagles
That's just embarrassing.

>>53132747
Clearly you missed the part near the end of Two Towers
>What's this? Looks like the speculators have been having a bit of fun
>Shorted another one have they?
>no... this stock ain't trash
>Someone organizes a run on the shares and the business looks limp as a boned fish. Then they buy up all of them . That's how they like to acquire. Call your broker!

>>53132747
Well duh.

Everyone in Mordor does. They might be violent marauders but civic virtues is one trait the denizens of the Black land all share.

>>53132645

Eru is god, he created the valar with the flame imperishable.

Valar are closer to angels.

>>53133249
I'd say the Valar are archangels and the Maiar are angels.

>>53133273

Well yeah they're all Ainur, some are just more powerful than others.

>>53132495
Oh yeah, you're right.

Well, Cu Chulainn did some crazy shit in that vein too.

>>53132674
I didn't think that humans went to the Timeless Halls. I thought they just went...somewhere.

Like, doesn't Beren end up just in some nondescript Land of the Dead before coming back? And Luthien goes to Mandos.

>>53125810
Yeah, keep telling yourself that.

>>53132971
heh

All of the super big creatures in Tolkien's works, including the eagles, were some form of spirit or supernatural entity. They don't really need to confirm to rules of nature. Reminder Feanor literally burned up from the inside when he died.

>>53132971
> I read this with a newyork jew accent.
Fuck you, 4chan.

>>53125801

w-woah... did you notice anything else in the Lord of the Rings Universe that's unrealistic or wouldn't work in reality?

>>53127380
Sure is newfag in here

>>53133714
Yeah, like, Ungoliant and Shelob are referred to as spiders because that's an easy way to denote "big hairy creature with eight legs" but they're not actually spiders.

>>53133714
Literally every magical being in Tolkien's work is some form of spirit.

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>>53126969
>Also "magical creatures don't necessarily require oxygen".
Which is great if you want to work on your own theory of how they work beyond pic related, but the default assumption is that most things require oxygen.
>magic requires oxygen was simply an offshoot of that
The problem with saying that is you're still putting the cart in front of the horse and fucking it all up. No one else said magic requires oxygen. They said magic can produce oxygen, and the hypothetically assumed amount of oxygen required might show how powerful magic could be.

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>>53125810

>>53127380
>Glaurung

The first dragon, I think. The first one of any importance, at least.

>Valar

A god/angel.

>Morgoth

A valar, and essentially Lucifer.

>>53133747
To continue, Ive noticed that this thread is mostly filled with 2 kinds of posters, /sci/ simulationists and /lit/ lore fags. Each category is trying to have fun in their own way and neither seems to be willing to accept the existance of the other.

This is basicly accusation of "bad wrong fun" and serves only to make a
Everyone involved unhappy. As a man with a foot i both kinds of fun, please allow me to offer some explination for how the other party is deriving their fun.

For the scifags, the fun is in discovery and explaining the impossible. It IS the same kind of faggotry that offered explinations about spider vaginas and gave a 6d value of the Fat Man nuke. It has history on /tg/ and, thus, has a place here.

Litfags are more concerned with the lore and worldbuilding, both important points of running a table top game. This faggotry seeks not to build explinations for the world but to but stories within the world. The addition of real world limitations is seen as an attack on story itself. Narativists are also a core camp in /tg/, having built things like Oinkbane and Bagworld. They, too, have a place here.

I propose both camps let the other do their thing so that we may all enjoy ourselves. Scifags, calculate the O2 production disparities and quantify magic in middle earth because it would be neat to know. Litfags, regale us with the lore and stories of middle earth so we can mine your knowledge for hooks and lore for our own worlds.

Sure, this is 4chan, and that means there will be trolling... but this is /tg/. This isnt the ocean of piss. /tg/ has always been shit, sure, but it's magical shit. This place is special.

Be excellent to eachother, dudes.

>>53125810
>He's never been to Australia

>>53133508
I think if you do the math on some of Cú Chulainn's mythos, you arrive at the conclusion that he killed more human beings than have ever actually lived on the planet (which is ~107 billion, give or take).

>>53134145
How about you suck my cock, you redditor?

>>53125801
I generally just use intrinsic magic, because I'm not a turbo-autist.

If Magic is a natural force that wizards can learn to harness, then why can't an animal or plant evolve to use it? In fact, why does fauna on a world with magic look anything like earth life at all?

Calm the fuck down and eat your cheerios, baitposter.

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>>53126726
It is also stated that in her neverending hunger, she eventually ate herself out of reality. Ungoliant was most definitely a cosmic horror, even if she didn't look the part.

>>53134176
> The /tg/ newfag accuses me of redit.
Ok.

>>53133559
That's elves
Humans become part of the 2nd music iirc

>>53134613
>"let's all hug each other" faggy speech
>reddit spacing
>calls me a newfag
You fool no one, leddit.

>>53135242
I'm sorry you think that basic readability is worse than a blobbed together paragraph that nobody will ever read.

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>>53134145
Okay, so first thinks first, we need lorefags to give us an estimate of Ancalagon's size. Biofags should then be able to estimate the amount of oxygen required. From there, we can determine either how much extra oxygen there was at the beginning of the first age, or the amount of joules necessary to create the required amount of oxygen.

If the amount of oxygen was always the same, its possible that nuclear fusion was required to create it. Assuming Ancalagon can breath fire, we might be able to determine the temperature of it's breath.

pic related is the spider vagina thing, if anyone wasn't familiar.

>>53126437
>That'd be like us getting involved in the politics of fleas or termites.
We do. We exterminate them whenever we find them because they're obnoxious little things that invariably make nuisances of themselves if left alone.

Hence why intelligent giant monsters in fiction tend to not like humanity.

>>53134168
Yeah, there's parts in the Tain bo Cualinge where he's like killing 3000 of Medb's soldiers every night for like a week with his slingshot. Crazy stuff.

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>>53128150
>Ancalagon the Black, a dragon so large his head sticks out into the layer of atmosphere that is so rarified humans suffocate, a dragon so large that his weight is greater than that of mountain ranges, and a wingspan so large that if he beat his wings once the local atmosphere would be blasted into space.
Yeah, in shitty fanart. Good luck finding anything in Tolkien's actual writings to support this idea.

>>53129324
See pic related.

>>53135424
>we need lorefags to give us an estimate of Ancalagon's size
Good luck, he's mentioned maybe a half dozen times ever, even when you count each of the drafts of the Silmarillion separately. He's never described in any detail, and it's not even clear whether he's actually the largest dragon ever.

>>53135758
There's a great letter to his son where Tolkien basically explains that Luthien's looks were based off of his wife as well, explaining how Edith looked when she was younger.

>>53126012
This. OP confirmed scientifically illiterate

>>53135758
Yeah, he's only described as "the greatest of all the dragons" but that could mean anything.

>>53126327
Don't say "kids" like you'd be any better. You're an autist among other autists

>>53127380
Maybe you should stop being such a fucking normie and get your autismo levels up to bar by reading silmarillion, faggot.

>>53125801

She's magical.

>>53135885
Pretty sure the guy you're quoting is saying it in a positive manner.

>>53134687
The second music isn't canon.

>>53136565
>Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Ilúvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days.

literally on the first page of the Ainulindalë

>>53137346
I bet you think everything in the Silmarillion is accurate and isn't just a collection of stories even within middle-earth itself (that Tolkien never got the time to bang into shape).
Like Frodo throwing the ring into the fire.

>>53137481
"Canon" and "true" mean two different things

>>53126350
>follows physics
>A universe based entirely on mythological stuff

The planet was Flat and then made round because God was upset.

>>53137686
Pretty sure he went back on the prophecy of the Dagor Dagorath.

>>53129186
>Also I never thought Ancalagon was supposed to be that big

I'm pretty sure it's a meme that Ancalagon gets slightly bigger in that picture every time it gets posted

>>53137968
The Dagor Dagorath and the Second Music are two different things

>>53132850
To be fair eagles are spirits like gandalf, so he was killed by a fleet of airships full of demigod elves and a bunch of angel eagles. And it took them an entire day to do it.
Which applies to OP. Shelob is the spawn of some shit that even the god of the setting didnt have a hand in creating. She would laugh at both real life and middle earth physics.

>>53125801
Actually he made three big mistakes and shitton of smaller and less known ones.

>>53138449
What would those three be?

>>53138407
Not when the first leads into the second.

>>53138471
Insulting Hitler, praising the Jews, and being Catholic.

>>53138563
Okay, so then why is the second music mentioned within the Silmarillion, smart guy?

>>53138580
true

>>53138605
Because it wasn't fully re-fitted or written out (or was left there as an elf myth) to Tolkien's new canon before he died.
Guy was a sucker for altering things he did in the past and making them fit his new ideas (like orcs and goblins becoming the same thing).

>>53138471
He's an edgy modern fantasy fan who hates Tolkien and think he's like, so overrated.

>>53138674
>implying orcs aren't edge incarnate

>>53126726
Tolkien went back and forth about her. She was significantly less powerful than Morgoth before she drank from the Trees. Afterwards, she was massively empowered and really could make a contest of it between them.

>>53126288
>Huge ass-fucking dragons

>>53125801
Invisibility rings don't exist, either. Drown yourself, retard.

>>53126437
>lol i just let termites destroy my house
Dipshit.

>>53133559
>Like, doesn't Beren end up just in some nondescript Land of the Dead before coming back? And Luthien goes to Mandos.

All the dead go to the halls of Mandos. Elves wait a while before being re-embodied (not all choose or are permitted to). Dwarves all end up there. Men stay only briefly before going through the Gates of Night to dwell with Eru.

Beren is weird in that he refused to leave Mandos until Luthien came for him. She died from grief at Beren's death (thingol horrified), then went to Mandos and sang to him a song of her grief, whereupon he went to the Valar to figure out a solution. Beren is resurrected as a special one-off thing; as part of that, Luthien is resurrected also but as a mortal. She wakes up (thingol relieved, but now Melian horrified). The two leave and dwell together in semi-isolation for the rest of their lives. About their deaths nothing is known.

>>53134145

I'm a simulationist, but Tolkien explicitly makes this a world that follows his rules of myth and theology, not science. And Shelob and such creatures are explicitly supernatural.

In other stories, I've made biologically plausible dragons. In Tolkien, it's pointless when he's already accounted for all this via explicit use of magic to overcome physical limitations.

>>53139793
>Melian
Sluttiest Maia.

>>53135242
I can smell the /pol/ here.

>>53139831
>biologically plausible dragons

Care to elaborate? I seem to recall something about them not being physically possible.

>>53139831
It's worth noting that he also treats magic as a sort of sublime extension of creative work, and it has to actually be enacted and realized. There's mystic/theological rules involved, but Melkoric monster making is theoretically just as teachable a craft as Sauronic ring lore, Noldorin jewel smithing, Numenorean architecture, Dwarven craft, etc.

The magic of the walls of Isengard isn't ever described as an arbitrary force that makes them indestructible, its a matter of being constructed in a supernatural manner. It's never that the heat of lesser fires do not apply to the ring, its that they are insufficient. It follows that dragons have some magical mechanic by which to function, even if we don't know it, instead of just an authorial decree that they do.

>>53140567
Thinking about it everything Melkor makes ought to have some mechanism by which it functions. Only Eru would be able to make things happen ineffably.

>>53126475
As in the literal planet?

>>53132220
Thank you that was an enjoyable summary

>>53140588
Melkor Corrupted Eru's creations to make Orcs, Goblins, Trolls, and the like, they were corruptions not wholly new things, and in fact, only Aule created a living thing, Dwarves, though they were lifeless and soulless before Eru gave them souls.

>>53125810
You can't fool me, you fucking arachnid.

>>53125801
All spiders are magical creatires in Middle Earth.

>>53128026
Orcs had freakin apcs in the silmarillion

>>53141562

In Middle-earth, Orcs and Goblins are the same thing.

>>53126012
If you should ever find yourself stranded in a far-flung fantasy realm, it can be helpful to consider your predicament scientifically. That is, approach situations with as few assumptions as possible, accept solid evidence when it is presented, and always be willing to admit you are wrong, and adjust your mindset accordingly.

This is actual science, which a tragically high number of strandees confuse with "acting like the world they're stranded in adheres to the exact same physical principles as their own". More than a few survivalists have been lead astray by compasses going haywire, several fledgling empires have been cut short when their founders discovered (too late) that their guns didn't work, and many, many would-be adventurers have gone to their graves saying "no dragon could fly with wings that smaAAAAAAAAAAAH!"

Don't be like those poor souls. Be smart. Be safe. Assume nothing.

>>53141975
>This is actual science

Pretty much this. If the world you are currently living in has evidence of genuine gods, the ability to measure sins objectively, and dragonic creatures created out of the collectively unconsciousness of humanity. And there is iron tight proof of this it would actually be insane to not except it if you happen to be in a differing world.

>>53125801
The gods literaly made the world round so humans couldn't follow the elves west and made the sun to and moon to chase creatures of darkness into the shadow, Tolkin ain't got to explane shit.

>>53125801
Shelob wasn't a spider, other spiders evolved from her.

>>53125810
>Spider defense force out this early in the thread

>>53125986
Glaurung was the father of dragons, and the largest of his species. Ancalagon was just the greatest of winged dragons.

>>53125801
>already 200+ replies, tendency rising
i was a fool to think that good bait would take more than that

>>53145789
We take any and every excuse to talk about Tolkien.

>>53141946
Same thing as in groups within same species or two names for the same group?

>>53135885
>Don't say "kids" like you'd be any better. You're an autist among other autists

Anon, not every post on 4chan is an insult. You should probably turn down your persecution settings, because it looks like they're too high and you're interpreting affection as scorn.

>>53146344

Two names for the same group. "Goblin" is a rough translation of what Hobbits call an Orc.

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Hobbitish

>>53129200
It'd probably be his main cause if he were alive today, that and veteran's affairs

>>53125816
/thread

>>53135242
>You don't hate everyone else like a good misanthrope?
>You must be from reddit.

>>53145812
except for Zarthas threads.

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