Were the Jedi Masters: Vrook, Zez-Kai Ell, and Kavar right in

No.

Jedi are always harping on about "muh balance" and "muh light side".

Well guess what you can't have both. Light without the darkness is not balance. And the force could not have been destroyed. Perhaps the nature of the force would change, but is that not the very nature of a living thing such as the force?

All jedi are wrong, save for those few who have realized what balance truly is and that dark =/= evil, like that old guy in he first game who incidentally was the best character.

>>53123451
>that old guy
Jolly Dindu

>>53123451
REEEE THAT'S NOT HOW THE FORCE WORKS
balance is not the dark side and the light being equal. balance is the force. the dark side is an unnatural perversion, that destroys the balance of the universe simply by its existence.

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>>53123396
>>>/v/

Since we're already here, anyone mind answering some questions? I originally posed them to a friend of mine, but he's too busy to give be a answer.

1.) How does one become a wound in the force? My understanding is that becouse the Exile has force bonds with so many people who've died at M5 they're reserving echos of the pain and suffering that a occurred there through those bonds. I envision bonds as wiring that power and information travel through btw.

2.) Did Revan plan for this to happen? Again my understanding is that the Mandolorian war was set up in such a way as to defin Jedi to their force "conscience" so to speak by defining them to the pain and suffering brought on by what I can only describe as Star Wars Vietnam. This this weakness and their Devotion to Revan was what allowed him to convert them into sith correct?

3.) What does being a wound allow you to do? The Exile seems to be able to cannibalize the force essence of those he slays, this is how they fluff the exp system. He can also form bonds very easily and can syphon force sensitivity off of those he's bonded to, and bend them to his will. Is the later just inborn? Is the former just him forming bonds with those he defeats and the force wound bit is somthing else?

4.) At some point in the game Kriea mentions how the exile was able to do what he did becouse he was afried. I understand from a writing point of view this is subverting our expectations of the protagonist. But im still not sure what she means by this.

1/2

5.) The true sith is just a metaphor for our inner demons, the jedi teachings surround the true sith and protect you from it by denying contact, prohibiting internal conflict. The flaw of the jedi teachings though is that when that shell cracks and you are faced with the true sith, you don’t know what to do and fall pray to it very easily. You need to face the true sith, confront it and truly reject it to be immune to the sway of the darkside. This all ties into Kriea's philosophy that conflict and adversity create strength.

That all sounds about right to you? If so I'm not sure just where the exile encountered his true sith. I'd imagine M5, but how could he of Fallen to the darkside there? Wasn't he plagued by essentially the ghosts of his friends and comrades? He cut himself off from the force becouse he couldn't take the psychological trauma correct?

6.) The exile cutting himself off from the force was like blinding himself so he didn't have to look at the horrors of M5? He never becomes unblinded, but for some reason he can still form bonds and can feel the force vicariously through them. Using it to "see" like echolocation?

7.) For some reason his connection to his force conscience became stronger after he blinded himself? Somthing about not needing to listen past the static and just being in a silent room with a whisper. This is why he went to face trial and didn't join Revan?

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Is it time to post it again? Sounds like it is!

>>53123396
You cannot "Kill" the Force. FFS Traya was insane by that point in her life, go replay the game plz.

>>53123786
newfag detected, KotOR has, and always will be, /tg/ related. It was built on the d20 engine, after all.

>>53123869
>>53123881
1) Basically. Strong force bonds getting broken on one end caused the Exile to become a wound in the force.

2) Yes. Revan was a cunning little shit.

3) Yes. His talents naturally allowed him to form bonds easily, and being a Wound allows him/her to weaponize it to an extent. It's an excuse to meta the XP system.

4) The Exile feared Death, and so when confronted with Immeasurable Pain, chose to break their force connection rather than face that end.

5) Interesting theory. But the True Sith were a real, physical threat out there beyond the Outer Rim. TOR fucked that up though, so...

6) The Exile did not fall there. They became only Force Blind, and did so in order to survive the psychic trauma of the Mass Shadow Generator. A strong mental connection to Kreia (or perhaps just a sign that one cannot be truly blind to the Force) enables you to relearn over the course of the game.

7) Also interesting, but the Exile also went back because they weren't connected to the Force any longer, and so were not seduce-able to Revan's side in that way any longer. Hell, it's hinted that Revan didn't even like them!

>>53123396
You are like the jedis of the Council. You don't understand why Exile have gone out to war and you don't understand why he returned. Hell, you can tell it directly to the Council in the game when Exile remembers how he was cast out.

>>53123508
t. a buttmad jedi

>>53123396
That question is impossible to answer in its current state since KOTOR2 permits choice. You can be a complete Saint and only be in disagreement with the Council over the war, or you can be a comically evil asshole with a ship full of people you corrupted to be equally evil but who still gathered the masters out of pragmatism. Your question would have notably different answers dependent on what your idea of "The Exile" is.

>>53123396
>Orthadox Jedi Council being right about anything

Yeah, no. These are the idiots that would sit with their thumbs up their asses, meditating for a perfect solution while worlds burned and countless millions died. Fuck them and their arrogance right to their deserved grave.

>>53123451
Jolle Bindo. And yeah, he was right.

>>53124167
KotOR has always been just a bad excuse to shitpost about "muh grey".

>>53123869
>1.)Wounds in the Force were created whenever a massive loss of life occurred. All life in the galaxy was interconnected and when a significant number of lives were suddenly ended, the Force sustained a localized injury much like a sentient who had lost a limb. The epicenter of the wound became a dark place, filled with the reverberating echoes of the pain, terror, and suffering of the life forms who had lost their lives.

2.)Revan Planned everything from beginning to end. Darth Malak Betrayal screwed everything up. Kreia states the Mandalorian wars were a series of Massacres which hid another war; a war of Conversion. The Jedi Civil war was a War of Ideology.

3.)Being a wound in the force is something akin to being a parasite. Your relations can either be symbiotic or parasitic.The Jedi masters take note of this in the Dantooine.

4.)The Exile lost her connection because she intentionally turned away from the Force, cut herself off. Kreia claims it was because she was afraid, and that's certainly what's implied. She was terrified of the death and destruction caused by her command, and she severed her own connection so she could deafen herself to the echo of Malachor.
Every other Jedi at the battle were either corrupted (turned to the Dark Side, per Revan's master plan) or were flatly killed by Malachor's echo.

5.)I always got the feeling the True Sith were always going to be a more Philosophical Enemies not like the MMORPG. It would have tied in nicely with what Kreia was teaching and it would have also explained why the Sith were more Subtle in their efforts as the Disciple noted.

6.)Apparently, the shock of so much death on Malachor V was such a massive trauma that she couldn't endure it and she sub-consciously, as a defense mechanism, shut herself off from the force. At least, that's what I've got from playing through the game and reading up on it at various places.

>>53124464
>gray

Nah. I just play my Jedi like emotionally mature and stable adults capable of critical thinking. It's the fedoras that start brain-seeping about "gray jedi."

>>53124498
>6.)Apparently, the shock of so much death on Malachor V was such a massive trauma that she couldn't endure it and she sub-consciously, as a defense mechanism, shut herself off from the force. At least, that's what I've got from playing through the game and reading up on it at various places.
I think Kreia implies that technically any Jedi could have done it. If they had the guts to drop the Force.

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>>53123396
You can't kill the Force. KotOR and its progeny continued the failure that was the prequel trilogy by insisting on turning the mystical esotericism of the Force in the original trilogy into a dissected science. KotOR was a fun game, but KotOR2 was babby's first 2deep4u philosophy and really had no business being in the Star Wars universe.

Also, this stupid fucking western notion of balance being the middle of the road between the light and the dark side needs to go and stay go. A car isn't functioning in balance when it's halfway between working and broken. A piano's tuning isn't in balance when half the strings are out of tune. You don't reach enlightenment by meditating under the bodhi tree for half the fucking day.

I mad.

>>53124501
That's nice, not sure what it's got to do with KotOR threads just being excuses to shitpost.

>>53124560
Three shitposts. And the rest of the thread is answers to Op reasoning and questions

>>53124567
Can you point out the shitposts?

>>53123396
>She's a wound in the force, as she killed she grew more powerful.
That's not exactly what they were describing.
Pretty much everything the Exile did made her more powerful. The more she experienced, the more she saw, the more connections she made, it all contributed to her power.
She was made powerful because she would invariably create force bonds with everyone and everything she came in contact with.
In laymen's terms: Her ability to gain Experience Points was canon to the setting.

Even without killing a single thing, just going around the world solving problems in the most Jedi way would make her more powerful.

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>>53123396
I think they were right just because she's a war criminal, the mystical bullshit is academic.

>>53124764
She's not really a war criminal though.
All Jedi were citizens of the Republic, and the Republic asked for their help.
The Jedi Council forbid it, but it's not like the Jedi Council is an entirely independent military power that can deny its members their right as a Republic citizen to stand up and defend their way of life and their fellow citizens.

>>53124886
Haven't you heard anon. The jedi are collectivist

>>53124886
...not really what I was talking about. I might be wrong here, it's been more than a little while since I really got into the lore, but didn't Revan choose the forces to attack Malachor V based on loyalty? Namely that the people he chose to attack it were of questionable loyalty to his cause.

The Exile caused a huge loss of life, and if had been just the Mandalorian's, whatever legitimate military target etc. etc.

But she killed how many of her own soldiers?

Woman was a monster, at least then.

>>53124931
I'm not 100% certain, but I'm pretty sure the entire setup for that was that there was "Something" on Malachor V to begin with. Some sort of potential super-weapon that never got much in terms of detail, and it was actually that very weapon that Bao-Dur (Who's name I'm 70% sure I just misspelled) rigged to cause the planet to crack in the first place.

It was a immense loss of life, but it was the sort of "We either get this done, or we lose the war" kind of battle, at least as far as what Revan told them went.

Would a character like Revan be considered an obnoxious character for someone to play in a tabletop RPG?

>>53124966
Maybe, I just went off the Wookiepedia article for a refresher.

She was either a war criminal or the person who made the hardest right decision in the Galaxy.

That's a bit of a gap.

>>53124968
Depends on which period of his life.

>>53124991
This, basically. From pre-KOTOR 2 -> TOR he really runs the gamut personality wise.

>>53125003
>KOTOR 2
What the fuck am I even posting anymore.

>>53123508
The dark side is a natural part of the living force. You don't have to like it, but you can't deny it.

>>53123508
>>53125056
mortis arc says the force is just the force.
Light is the force.
Dark is the force.
But people fucking with the dark side are bad juju.
That is why palpatine and others show physical signs of corruption. It's unnatural to bend the force to your will, which is what Sith do.
Ideally a Jedi should act in harmony with the Force, i.e. do what comes naturally.
The entire PT is about how they lost their way though and only Luke finally gets it again.

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>>53125091
Does this look like the face of corruption.

>>53124968
Aside from what >>53124991 said, which is true: Not neccessarily.
Like almost all things in TTRPGs, it depends on how you do it.

With his type of character, if you let your actions speak for themselves, and don't start to monologue about your reasons for doing things unless someone asks (be it a PC or NPC), you're fine.

That actually goes for most characters.
Paladins only piss people off when they start berating the Bard for telling tales full of lies for the sake of coin, instead of recounting the inspiring tale of Sir Soandso who defended the Pass at the Castle of Whogivesafuck.

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>>53125168
I mean anon. If it wasn't for sir Soandso and his defense at Castle Whogivesafuck the realm would have capitulate to the Dark Lord.
Its a tale worth telling

>>53124553
THANK YOU

The Light Side IS the side of the Force in balance. The Dark Side is the side of the Force Imbalanced.

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>>53125221
Oh really now? You know what else is a tale worth telling?
Sir Soandso would never have stood on that battlefield if his father hadn't hid his mighty wyrm in Soandso's mothers' cavern of woes.
Should that have not taken place, the realm would have also been lost surely, so how' bout I sing a song of that faithful night?

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>>53125153
No, but this does.

>>53125292
All the CG in those movies and they couldn't have given him a better face?

>>53125292
He was attacked by the jedi extremists who plotted against the republic by starting the clone wars.

>>53125305
I'm pretty sure you couldn't really do better than that. Nothing says withered and deformed better than a face like a vivisected Oyster left out in the sun for a fortnight.

>>53123508
This. For the last fucking time. The dark side IS imbalance. Its not fucking yin and yang, dark side is corrupted chi.

>>53125305
you are just asking for another special edition of the first films, aren't you?

>>53125313
Grandmaster Yoda was trying to save the Republic by starting the Clone Wars.

Granted, that a COMPLETELY FUCK STUPID decision for him to make, but still...

Hey op have you tried not paying attention to material written by Chris "I'm an overrated shit who hates star wars" Avellone?

>>53125335
Not him, but a complete strip of the Lucas prequels and rebuild would be wonderful.

>>53125091
> It's unnatural to bend the force to your will, which is what Sith do.
But the very way of sapient live is to bend universe to their will. That's how it evolves and carves a place for itself. That is the most natural thing to do - use laws and powers within universe for your own benefit and through that to benefit your species in the long run.

>>53125339
>So then Yoda starts a war to save friends

>>53125335
As amusing as their dumb bullshit is, the idea of giving George Lucas more money makes me vomit blood.

I'm kidding.

Mostly

>>53125328
And light side is stagnation.

>>53125377
That is horseshit and completely unsupported by the cannon. Please, for your own health, take the Sith penis out of mouth and cease drinking Dark Side semen.

>>53125351
yeah. and using the dark side is breaking those rules.
Don't argue with me about it, it's George Lucas' final word on the matter. Just watch the Mortis Arc.
I mean he flip flopped on it, and disney seems to be going for a more literal black and white approach judging by the force awakends (or they just don't give a fuck about it)

>>53125387
You mean like how Sith first almost destroyed Republic through using only shitty drones and then got into position of power by using Clone Army?

Both capabilities existed for a long time but Jedi Order never even considered the possibility that someone may use them.

>>53125450
did you even watch the movies?

>>53125428
>>53125091

Mortis arc is not canon

>>53125450
I don't... understand how this relates to my statement.

>>53125493
of course it is. TCW is as much canon as the movies.
Word of God from Disney. They made a list of what is and isn't canon when they announced a unified canon.

>>53125512

What he is clumsily attempting to convey is that the Jedi Order, at the time of the Clone Wars, was ripe for exploitation by a crafty Mastermind due to having been in a state of Peace for so long.

Conflict breeds competence.

What he is claiming, however, is that the light side of the force itself is what breeds stagnation instead of the organization that existed at the time of the Clone Wars, which while adhering to the light side, is still a separate entity.

>>53125387

Light Side always stagnates and then faces a massive threat. They aren't proactive at all.

Look at Palpatine. He managed to set up a fucking OPPOSING EMPIRE while manipulating others. His major contribution , force wise, was that he managed to cloud the precog shit for the council and they made no attempt to stop it. They just sat there and waiting while sending their masters to their deaths.

The Light side stays stagnant till it's collapse while the Sith advances till it falls in on itself.

Grey Jedi are the only ones that actually work out.

>>53125531

No, TCW is canon

mortis arc is not canon

>>53125547
What

>>53125547
please show me where they cherry picked the episodes...

That's complete bullshit.

>>53125555

Some things in the show are canon

Mortis arc is not canon

>>53125558

I don't have it saved but Mortis arc is not canon

>>53125535
>What he is claiming, however, is that the light side of the force itself is what breeds stagnation instead of the organization that existed at the time of the Clone Wars, which while adhering to the light side, is still a separate entity.
I agree that's true that it is more a fault of organization than light side itself. But the basic tenets of most light side organizations were encouraging such end result.

Each time jedis were pulled into war they were somewhat getting their shit together but then everything was going back and sometimes even got worse. And in the end you get well meaning people who can't do the work that their order supposedly must do.

>>53125543
>Grey Jedi
Opinion discarded.

>>53125564
The closest thing I can find to support the claim is a reddit post claiming it was a shared force vision and that the whole thing was metaphorical.

>>53125583
>But the basic tenets of most light side organizations were encouraging such end result.

That is a result of continually adhering to the teachings of Jedi of old. The organization never learns from itself.

This is not the fault of the light side like you keep seeming to claim.

>>53125535
Ah, I see. My bad, I didn't get the leap.
>>53125543
The Light Side and the Jedi Order are not synonymous. The Jedi Order attempts to serve the Light Side, but were hamstrung by their submission to the Republic.

Your argument only makes sense if you take the Jedi Council as it appeared in the Prequel Trilogy as the only incarnation of the Jedi Council that ever existed. You'll see no argument from me that their passivity and reluctance to act was a massive help to Palpatine in engineering their downfall, but the incarnations of the Order before the Ruussan Reformation were plenty proactive. The Army of the Light? The Jedi Shadows? The Jedi Watchmen? Lot's of proactiv-ity there.

>>53125564
>I don't have it saved but Mortis arc is not canon
how convenient.
Every press release I found mentions the series as a whole, the wook has the mortis arc listed as canon and wikipedia never heard of this either.

So I'm calling bullshit.

>>53125601
So what 5000+ years of jedi order is all the fault whoever the fuck was at the beginning? While the galaxy changed around them jedis always tried to stay the same.

Only with Luke in old canon it got somewhat better.

>>53124533
She didn't imply anon. She stated it.

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>>53125616
Seems pretty clear cut. TCW is canon.

>>53125675
I think Anon is saying that while TCW is canon, that arc isn't, though I can't find anything official that says this.

>>53125705
But that's idiotic. George lucas worked on that arc briefly

>>53125705
I get he's saying that, my point was that the timeline comes with no disclaimers saying ''The Clone Wars, but only SOME of it, yeah?''.

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>>53125711
Dunno what to tell you dude, that's just what I've read this other anon say.

>>53125711
We know it's idiotic, that's why we're roasting the dude who said it.

>>53123396
I never understood why the jedi masters made the accusation that she was a sith.

>>53126005
Because on the whole the game isn't super well written?

>>53126020
Or maybe the masters were trying to shift the blame onto her

>>53125387
The canon is entirely inconsistent between the works that actually examine the force. You only get a definitive statement on what the force is outside of the work itself, from the stupid mouth of Lucas.

>>53126005
>>53126020
>>53126039
The masters were afraid of her and what she represented.

>>53126039
I like KOTOR 2, don't get me wrong I like it more than KOTOR 1 if we're being honest with each other , but I have a hard time believing that was the writers intent.

I've always figured that to them Exile joined Revan and therefore she was a sith. They were unwilling to move past that prejudice and what she did and was damned forever to them.

If that's the case... I mean it works. It isn't perfect, but it works as a plot device to get shit rolling.

>>53125339
I'm pretty sure Palpatine gave the order to attack on Geonosis.

>>53126064
Of course they were afraid. The jedi exile was corrupting the jedi teachings

Tell me how this has anything to do with Traditional Games and why it doesn't belong in /v/. We all like KOTOR but it doesn't belong here.

>>53126277
Morality system and d20

>>53126306
>morality system
Has nothing inherently to do with traditional games and this thread isn't about that system.

>d20
You may have a point if this thread was about KOTOR's mechanics. It's not. It's about the plot of a videogame.

>>53126344
>>53126344
Lore discussion are /tg/, especially SW since it has quite a lot of traditional games.
Yes, it's quite a large field of discussion.

>>53126120
... I would LOVE a source on that, because if that's true, it takes a huge amount of the guilt for the Jedi's downfall off Yoda and puts it back on Palps.

I'm big on reminding people who bitch and moan that the Jedi deserved to fall that, y'know, an Evil Sith Lord running around fucking shit up was the real reason everything was so shitty all the time, but ''Yoda started the Clone Wars'' is an argument that I've always had to concede, because purely from the substance of the movies, that's what appears to happen.

>>53123396
>Jedi Exile
>She

>>53126439
I didn't know jedi were discriminating on people's force beliefs

>>53124966
I thought Malachor V was a sacred planet to the Madolorians, and its destruction was meant to break their spirit.

>>53126449
Revan was canonically a man and the Exile was canonically a women. until the Mouse decanonized them both

>>53125543
>Grey Jedi are the only ones that actually work out.
You can't be a Jedi if you don't follow the tenets of the Jedi Order

>>53126468
...What?

>>53126277
You're picking the wrong battle. Vidya crossposting is much better than the /pol/ infection nearly every other board has to deal with.

>>53126481
From what I remember, the only reason the Mandalorians thought highly of Malachor V, was because of the battle that took place there, but I might be remembering wrong.

>>53126498
If you didn't play the exile as Jedi Jesus you were doing it wrong.

>>53126510
Everytime there is a sith the jedi screech in a autistic manner and wage war

>>53126277
Because it's tangentially related to d20 traditional games and /v/ sucks. Consider it a compliment. There is no one I would rather discuss KotOR with than you, anon.

>>53126508
The issue with the term Gray Jedi is that it;s used so broadly that it's functionally meaningless. In universe, it has variously meant -
1. Former Jedi who broke from the Order and formed their own, similar organisations with slightly different codes of conduct.
2. Former Jedi who left the order but still try to follow the Light unhindered by a heirarchy.
3. Force Users with no connection whatsoever to the Jedi who just happen to do more-or-less good things with the force.
4. Members of the Jedi Order who experiment with force powers traditionally considered ''Dark''.
5. Jedi, former or not, who argue the traditionally heretical belief that the Dark Side is a necessary part of life and that it should be studied along with the Light.
6. Jedi who disagree with the councils decisions in any way, ever [seriously, a in one of the old EU novels, a member of the council refers to Qui Gon Jinn as a ''Grey Jedi'' for disagreeing with the council on how best to handle an diplomatic summit].

The term has so many meanings that it's essentially useless for the purposes of categorising anyone.

>>53126512
Political shitposting being cancerous doesn't make the story of a video game any less off-topic.

>>53126498
>until the Mouse decanonized them both
And bless him for that.

>>53126541
... Well, yes, the way of the Sith is conquest and the spreading of evil. If you're a servant of Good you're kinda obliged to oppose Evil strenuously.

Did... did you think that was some kind of ''gotcha'' argument you had there?

>>53126541
Sith are evil and do evil things all the time, go back to work Hux.

>>53126606
So if a Sith was open about preaching his religion but hadn't provably hurt anyone or broken any laws the Jedi would just let him go on his way and wouldn't use violence against him?

>>53126541
Fucking Darkiphobes

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>53126666
>Sith
>Not hurting anyone

What Sith would be stupid enough to advertise themselves?

>>53125616
>>53125675
>>53125705
>>53125711
>>53125733
>>53125736
>>53125746

No, Mortis arc is non canon

I don't have the thing saved but it basically proves that the arc is not canon and that the father son and daughter have nothing to do with the force as a whole

>>53126683
Let's just say the Sith did advertise himself but the Jedi couldn't find any evidence that he had hurt people or was planning to. Perhaps he was actively teaching and recruiting willing apprentices. What would the Jedi response be?

>>53126738
We don't know, it's without precedence.

>>53126694
OK, you're arguing two things at once here.
1. That the Father, Son and Daughter prove nothing about the nature of the Force.

I ACTUALLY AGREE WITH YOU

The fact that they are powerful does not prove that they are right, or even wise.

2. You say it's non-Canon doe to some nebulous ''proof'' which you refuse to provide, despite everyone else being able to show sources that flat out say ''The Clone Wars is Canon''.

You realise that your argument is nonsense, yes?

>>53126738
Arrest him for training a terrorist group to hurt and oppress innocent people? What exactly do you thing the Sith ideology is, anyway?

>>53126694
Oh ok then, I'm convinced.

>>53123451
>Light without the darkness is not balance
lol this bullshit every time
Why do people cling to this? It's not clever, it's not any better than "dark is bad and light side is good", it's just another cliche.

>>53126822
School shooter tier

>>53126822
Arrest him for spreading his religion? There's no evidence that they're planning on hurting anyone. The Sith code is essentially just a mix of egoism and amoralism but we don't arrest everyone who owns or recommends the works of Max Stirner. At that point the Jedi are opressive thoughtpolice who lose any perceived moral high ground.

>>53126854
Because they're edgelords who desperately want the stamp of legitimacy on their tendency to indulge darker impulses, and lack the intellectual capacity to argue their philosophy in real life, so they project their attitudes onto popular entertainment media.

At least that's how the ones I've known in real life have been. I can't speak for every single one of them on /tg/.

>>53126826

Good

>>53126789

Well no see if they are canon then the force makes no sense, so the episode is either non canon or a dream, because also the father son and daughter are never mentioned again like it didn't happen so it didn't, there's a thing that proves this but I don't have it saved

It's like how we don't talk about Midichlorians anymore, that's non-canon now, sure it's "canon" but it may as well never have happened because they don't talk about them anymore so it's non canon, same with the father son daughter

>>53126890
Even if that were the case, school shooters get arrested or shot too, so I don't see how that helps your argument.

>>53126898
If you strip the part where you must kill everyone around you it actually could be made into a workable tradition.

>>53126919
>canon things stop being canon if I don't like them
10/10 post.

>>53126919
See, I thought to myself ''give him a chance, he might not be a troll'' and then look what happened.

>>53126929
>If you strip the part where you must kill everyone around you
Where in the Sith Code does it say you must murder everyone around you?

>>53126932
His argument was more "canon things stop being canon if they aren't brought up anymore". Not that I agree, but let's be fair.

>>53126898
Max Stirner didn't use Dark Space Magic to kill people who opposed his rule of the Galaxy.

>>53126952
Code doesn't say it actually. But they had a lot of pretty retarded traditions in the course of their history.

>>53126939

I appreciate it, you're a classy fellow.

For real though, I am done now. Sorry for the shit posting.

I do agree that the Mortis Arc does add very little worth contributing to the Force as a whole, especially since to this day we still have people debating the whole "light must exist equally with the Dark" vs "light is Balance, dark is the imbalance" thing. Personally, I used to be in the previous camp as I found it more compelling, but I've begun coming around to the second.

I guess the only true thing is that I don't know which one it really is.

>>53126974
The problem there is the murder. When someone commits murder then they need to be stopped. That's not what we're talking about here.

>>53126993
Ah, I see your problem. You seem to think that there's no legal ramifications that can be brought to bear for teaching and training people to subjugate innocent people, but not going through with it yourself.

I have news for you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(criminal)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_to_murder

>>53127086
I don't see how teaching people the philosophy of the Sith falls under either of those. Being a selfish prick who shits on other people is fine. Telling people to be selfish pricks who shit on other people is fine. It only becomes conspiracy when you are planning specific crimes.

>>53127192
The Sith Code isn't the whole ideology, it's the philosophical justification for the ideology. The ideology is ''the only true purpose to being alive is to be The Most Powerful, so let rule the galaxy and beat anyone who opposes us to death'', and if you can't see that, then I have a suspicion that you have either a - just decided to go trolling today or b - not actually consumed any star wars related media in your entire life.

>>53127282
Social Darwinism isn't anything special. We don't imprison people who espouse its virtues.

>>53126952
The part where you shouldn't let petty things like law and morality get in your way.

>>53127360
You're right, we just give them enormous tax breaks in the name of Healthcare reform

>>53127360
No, but we do lock up people who start cults dedicated to violent overthrow of governments because they believe that Social Darwinism justifies their actions. And that's what the Sith are, and I've tired of arguing with trolls for the day. I wish you luck in trying to find someone daft enough for your argument to convince.

>>53127192
Mate people in Star Wars don't live in a bubble they write books you know? They know what Sith entails by opening their e-books up to "S" and seeing all the terrible shit that comes with it. I can't advocate from the creation of an Islamic Caliphate add a little "yo but do don't hurt anyone ;)" and expect the security service to take no interest.

>>53127519
Like I said, it's not a crime to espouse anarchism or amoralism.

>>53127538
There's nothing specific about the Sith code that demands governments be violently overthrown. Even if it did, like many socialist texts, it wouldn't be illegal. Ancaps have no respect for government or its authority but we don't arrest them until they actually commit a crime.

>>53127682
>Ancaps
It should be a crime to be that stupid

>>53127682
I have already addressed that point in
>>53127282
and why am I doing this I said I was leaving. I'm going to go make dinner to distract me from trolls.

>>53127716
>people who disagree with me should be imprisoned
Typical statist :^)

>>53127682
We should also return to the part where you a describing a premise with no precedent because you are describing the imposable.

>>53127774
Its the only way

>>53123396
OP, this should explain everything you need to know about KOTOR 2 and the arguments over the force. Keep in mind this is in the context of the EU before the Disney re-write.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z0S0Z8lUTg

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>>53128138
>1:52:51

>>53128138
>giving kreia that much time

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>>53128138
Insightful but heretical. The jedi masters were right as always

>>53128562
>t. George Lucas

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>>53128801
>t. Moral Revisionist

>>53129014
>t. Moral absolutist

>>53128298
>>53128368
Alright, let me soundbite it for you since you people hate fully articulated explanations.
The force is a crutch for both the Jedi and the Sith and without it they can't do shit. The force also manipulates everything for the sake of 'balance' which results in thousands of years of warfare and death, similar to griffith and the idea of evil from berserk. All kreia wanted is to free people from their predetermined destinies by severing the connection between force and life, thus theoretically returning choice to the individual strong enough to live without the force, of which the first was the Exile.

>>53126525
>If you didn't play the exile as Jedi Jesus you were doing it wrong.
True. Also as Jedi Jesus you get to have all waifus in the game still Bastila was best waifu

>>53129014
From my point of view, the jedi are evil.

>>53129014
Soooouurrcce

>>53125328
go home, lucas. Your headcanon has long been declared non-canon

>>53129189
One might as well gouge out the eyes that can deceive or declare independence from time or gravity, her ideology is an abject failure and every one of her students disappointed her. She says people should be strong on their own but then lays down arbitrary boundaries of what strength is truly theirs, she wants people to be free be feels no love for them and claims there are no choices while constantly presenting you with them. She even admits that she would throw aside all other thing just because you represent the crystallised form of her pet philosophy.

She's the fucking Ayn Rand of Star Wars, a hypocrite with a mad philosophy that is indulged by far too many.

>>53125305
It had to be a homage to his OT face, which was ott but worked with the whole shadowy hood thing

>>53125357
George Lucas sold Star Wars, anon

Threadly reminder that Star Wars was never good and was always a series of film-length advertisments for Georges toys. The laws of this universe are not governed by an attempt at internal consistency but by whatever the producers think will sell toys. Anything resembling lore was made up after the fact to appease neckbeards who read too much into the fictional world of these hour long commercials.

This was no more true in Phantom Menace than it was in New Hope

>>53130543
Lies

Serious question. Why the nine hells is anyone using the Star Wars Newcanon in an argument about a Legends Canon product?

TCW can fuck off. It's not part of the Legends franchise, and therefor, not part of the Legends Canon.

Kotor and it's ilk IS part of the Legends franchise and so IS part of the Legends Canon.

>>53135491
by your logic legends could be another franchise altogether.
Why even call it Star Wars if you disregard the canon material completely?

>>53124188
The Jedi Exile did not 'choose' shit, severing her connection to the force was an unconscious action that her unconscious mind performed in order to save her life. It was an instinct.

>>53129210
Then you are lost

>>53129189
Morality is absolute in real life anon

>>53136962
that would imply there is objectively good and objectively bad that is inherent to human nature across all cultures.
The only person that ever tried to get stuff going and research that was Erich Fromm afaik.
He proposed that an Institute for the Humanistic Science of Man should be formed that was supposed to research topics such as this.

This never happened though.

And just go give a quick example: Death penalty.
In some countries it's legal, some countries consider it state sanctioned murder.

Morality is anything but absolute. It is a necessary framework for man however. Which is why religion is also a universal concept. But the exact tenets of belief, i.e. the moral framework is different depending on what culture you look at.

>>53130543
Does he still have a say?

>>53138687
they didn't want this input for the new films and he wants nothing to do with it anymore.
he gave an interview a while ago where he explained all that.

>>53123396
Explain why the Jedi masters were wrong. They followed the jedi teaching to a T.

>>53135617
But why only him?

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>>53129221
Here you go anon.
https://nhentai.net/g/155570/

>>53123396
>Since the Jedi Exile was Sith all but in name.
The Exile was doing what she thought was right, out of a sense of justice, rather than a thirst for power. On top of that, the (known) Sith of the time are that ONLY in name. To say she was a Sith all but in name would imply she was the a member of the Sith race.
>She's a wound in the force
She wasn't before the exile, the Jedi Masters severing her connection to the force is what made her that.
>Apprentice to Darth Traya
Not willingly, nor officially, and under false pretense.

Exile did nothing wrong, and acted as a true Jedi should have. While we are on the subject, Revan was wiser than any Jedi or Sith in the true ways of the force and what constitutes as balance. He never would have slipped to the dark side if the cowardly counsel had backed him up in the first place, instead of demonizing him as an enemy and a traitor for wanting to protect the weak.

Also, you can't hold one person responsible for another's actions like you are doing to the Exile. Darth Traya's actions were her own, and no one is responsible for that aside from herself. Of course, you know who have a long standing habit of blaming the wrong people for the actions of others? The SITH.

You can't fool me, OP, the dark side is strong enough with you to feel it over the holonet connection. Why would you come onto a Tatooinian holo-board about dancing droids just to spread your Sith lies?

>>53123508
This.

>>53123396
>Were the Jedi Masters: Vrook, Zez-Kai Ell, and Kavar right in there Judgment about the Jedi Exile?
They should have just executed the Jedi Exile.

>>53141582
Actually considering Revan and Mandalorian wars.

Officially jedis were peacekeepers and protectors of the Republic. With large autonomy but still. And Council shitted all over their duty to the Republic when they decided to not be protectors and peacekeepers just in this case because risks were a little high.

>>53126054
Besides that, any single character's interpretation of the force isn't necessarily correct just because the character exists and said it in canon. It's not like a character can't be lying or mistaken. Just look at all the conflicting views of the force within the canon itself.

>>53126915
According to Lucas' jedi council, its any emotion at all that leads to the dark side.

Quick thing I was curious on, since the issue of KOTOR's canon has been brought up. Now, I haven't seen the latest episode of Rebels, but I've seen far enough that they go to Malachor and find the Sith Holocron of (I'm pretty damn sure) Darth Traya, so doesn't that retroactively make KOTOR canon again?

>>53141898
No, this is a common misconception. References to or re-canonisation of a character or place does not necessarily make everything associated with them/it canon again.

>>53141998
not the anon you replied to, to clarify, but that's just stupid. So the location of KOTOR 2's final battle, as well as the existence of the final boss exists in canon, but the character who defeated her and all the events that led to her being in that place aren't? That makes SO much sense.

It doesn't make any logical sense to re-canonize only parts of an entry. The importance of the place and character are wholly dependent on the context, which in this case would be the stories of KOTOR 1 and 2.

That would be like saying the stories Darth Plagueis (sp?) and Darth Bane aren't canon, even though characters and concepts that depend on them are cannon (his apprentice for the former, and the Rule of Two for the latter)

>>53142226
Battle of Malachor never happened. They butchered it. It's called the Scourge of Malachor now.

They always take ideas from Kotor 2 and they always butcher it

>>53142226
Only if you assume that those events MUST have occurred for things to make sense, Thrawn is back but this doesn't mean the Vong are to. Characters and places may return but that doesn't mean their stories are the same, they may be very similar with only small factual differences so they can fit in the world or they my be the same character but placed in different circumstances.

KotOR is not canon and to be frank, we're all better for it.

>>53142268
Bioware has the same ideas as you

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YV6TpNvBsM

>>53142254
Just because they call it the Scourge instead of Battle doesn't change the event itself. The details and aftermath that have been mentioned so far still match up. So they are tip-toeing around it, but that doesn't conflict with KOTOR.

>>53142268
Well, yeah, some of those MUST have occurred to make sense. If Plagueis was retconned out, then his mentioning by Palpatine would definitely make no sense. Thrawn being present BBY isn't reliant on the Vong, who appeared ABY. Now, if you had the Vong without Thrawn, then there would be a problem, similar to the one I'm pointing out now.

It just doesn't make any sense to throw away only parts of an entry that still make sense with the context of the new canon.

>>53142516
Why? Why can't the story just be different?

>>53123396
All I know is that I wasn't prepared fo out-DPS Vrook the Ethnic Cleanser on my neutral support Exile w/ one blaster

i know it's not canon but kyle katarn's simple explanation really was the best
>it's not the powers that are good or bad, it's how you use them
>tfw you'll never get a Dishonored/Deus Ex style stealth game where you can use Force Choke as a non-lethal ranged takedown

>>53142828
An ability like Force Choke is really just a refined application of Force Push/Pull in tandem; but from what I understand, something like Force Lightning requires losing oneself in rage, which manifests as a destructive physical distortion through the Force. For a Jedi, it seems difficult to justify channeling the Force with such abandon.

I understand they tried it with the Jedi green Force Lightning, though. Personally, I think that was dumb.

>>53123508
Dumb George Lucas poster.

>>53142966
But many sith used Force Lightning as a torture device. Which needs a controlled and precise application of power. Doesn't look like rage is the main component or at least not the only way to acquire it.

>>53143525
Darth Plageuis already answered this

>>53143525
It's hate, lightning comes from hate.

>>53143525
>Which needs a controlled and precise application of power.
Palpatine obviously used controlled and precise burst of lightning to melt his own face.

>>53143966
He didn't try to torture Windu - he wanted to kill him.

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>>53141648
Somebody gets it. They were right. They were always right. They were right about Kreia. They were right about Revan and Malak. And they were right about the Exile. Its ashame they were killed. They followed the Jedi Code to a T.

>>53144011
This. The Jedi Order died with them (and deserved it). The interventionist, child-kidnapping Order that followed set the stage for genocide far surpassing what happened to the perpetually-on-life-support Old Republic.

>>53144002
yeah, my point was the dark side is like handling radioactive materials. No matter how carefully you handle it you can fuck yourself up too.

>>53144011
>Literally the entire game (And to a minor degree the previous one) is built around showing why the Jedi Code is wrong and teaches tunnel vision which in turn makes it so that those tempted by the darkside will be blinded by their similarly tunnel vision'd thirst for power, regardless of what they originally wanted the power for.
>The characters who follow this broken code to the letter "were right"
They were good people, but they clung to their code too tightly, refusing to step outside their comfort-zone and ask if they should be doing things differently, because the very code they should have changed ordered them not to question anything.

The truth is I don't think KOTOR was as deep as people seem to think it is.
At best it was ambigious about a few things.

There is no elaborate philosophy to be found there however.

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>>53144101
>They saw through Kreia reinterpretation of the Jedi code as a darkside plot and exile her for it. Low and behold they were right as she was a sith lord.

>They saw through Revan and Malak speech on why they should join the war as simple virtue signaling.
>behold Revan and Malak corrupted those who join them to darkside and wage a war on the republic.

>They saw through the jedi exile as a mediocre jedi who would be easily converted to the dark side
>His new master is a sith lord instigated the great jedi purge and lured them into a trap killing them and rendering the jedi order extinct.

>Somehow they were wrong

If anything they need to be vindicated

>>53144358
>Still thinking Kreia was a Sith Lord
>Not getting that she despised the Jedi and he Sith's dependency of- and surrender to The Force
>Entire game is building up to her and the Jedi Exile following her plans wiping out all remnants of Jedi and Sith in the Galaxy, so that all is left is the Exile, the only Force User who can build a new order that is not a slave to the Force and leaves behind both the Jedi and Sith codes to create something better, breaking the Force's cycle
Just because in the canon ending the Jedi Exile was a fucking failure and didn't manage to save the Galaxy from the idiocity of the Jedi Order and the Sith, allowing both to grow back into the festering deterministic system that remained in place until Anakin destroyed the Emperor, once again leaving a single Force User who while maintaining the Jedi sentiments of doing good wasn't a slave like the Jedi who failed the Galaxy before him; doesn't mean that Kreia didn't do everything to establish better world, free of the Sith. The Sith who through her many monologues were shown to be a by-product of the broken Jedi Code.

>>53124661
All of yours.

>>53123508
Wrong. The original Jedi code acknowledged that the Dark Side is an innate part of life. Balance is reining in those impulses and controlling them. Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet the Force.

>>53123396
>Kreia, the old women who has a bit of a connection to the force
>Who's been on your ship, surrounded by others, some of whom can use the force
>One of whom literally only sees by using senseing the force in people
>Could even have been there for the initial encounter with members of the fucking Jedi Council
>Reveals herself a a Darth after being around those people for likely weeks, with nobody having noticed anything other than her whining about the Jedi

I'm sorry but I can't consider this as anything but stupid. Palpatine at least had the whole 'the Force is clouded' excuse, but Kreia doing it is just dumb.

>>53141898
The holocron was confirmed to NOT be Traya, by the way.

>>53144687
The entire game is literally filled with hints at this, including Visas (I think that was her name) seeing how powerful she.
There's multiple cutscenes your character is not there for where Kreia black-mails or otherwise manipulates characters who start noticing that she's powerful.

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>>53126974
>impylying he didn't

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>>53144772
What? When do they happen? I started another run a couple weeks back and basically all they way up to the meeting to the council I haven't seen any. Am I retarded?

>>53144817
Do you use unofficial patch that restores cut material ?

>>53144817
I think it might be affected by what choices you make, but a couple was also glitched or triggered wrong in the original release, only to be restored in the restoration mod.
(Also, I'm aware there are people memeing about how the restoration mod is fan-fiction, but considering every scene restored is voiced by the unused files on the disk, yeah no.)


I do remember that the game actively tests how well you listen to Kreia's teachings, including such things and changing what Kreia says if you're knocked out after talking with the Jedi, and the option to completely change the game's ending from blowing up Malachor V to starting a non-Jedi, non-Sith Academy there.
Which by the way is why the "fly away to parts unknown" ending is so underwhelming. It's basically the bad ending, even if you're a Jedi. It means you've failed to learn what Kreia was trying to teach you, and the eternal cycle of Jedi vs. Sith is just going to keep on going, leading to the movies, the Clone Wars and then everything starting all over again forever with countless lives being tossed around

>>53144903
No, it was a fresh install on a new laptop, forgot the patch

>>53144933
Well I didn't follow her teachings at all.

>>53145001
>Well I didn't follow her teachings at all.
She didn't teach to follow. In fact the very opposite.

>>53144933
It's worth noting all this was written my someone who didn't like Star Wars and thus set out to write something totally different which sabotaged the base premise of the setting.

>>53145063
He didn't hate star wars. He hated how everyone was simply using the force as an excuse for everything while making it incomprehensible

But seriously though, why is the one truth that Luke knows "The Jedi Must End"?

>>53126498
>tfw my Revan was female so I made my Exile male
>maximum noncanon

>then Handmaiden comes in and looks almost exactly like my Revan because the lazy fucks reused one of the female KotOR heads for her, and made things weird

>>53145091
So he creates a new truth that make everyone except his pet mouthpiece a moron or a slave?

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>>53145171
>MExile had a massive crush on FRevan and made the Handmaiden cosplay as her in bed

Now that's a canon I can get behind.

>>53145178
It isn't a new truth.
Not a single thing stated about the Force, the Jedi or the Sith is new, or divergent from what was previous established by the movies and KotOR 1, it simply applied a different kind of philosophy to the established facts.

It's effectively meta-commentary, to the point where they're almost directly referencing the protagonist's ability to gain experience points and become relevant to whatever place they visit due to being the protagonist when they're talking about the Exile's unique abilities as a force user.

It's a Star Wars flavoured, much more in-universe version of what South Park: The Stick of Truth did with how the player character can inexplicably make friends really fast, an ability that most RPG protagonists share in order to make the quest system viable.

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The Force is just the Force, period.

It gives life and it brings death. As a Sith, you bend it to your will. As a Jedi, you let it flow through you. As a Knight of Zakuul or Imperial Knight, it's your reward for your service, your conviction.

Both Jedi and the Sith just take their own views of the Force to opposite extremes. The Force is always in balance, as it's not a dichotomy of black and white. It's simply grey... It simply is.

However you could argue that there are, in fact, two polar opposites, and that the Force is the eternal conflict between life and death made manifest. But you can't have one without the other: The light gets too powerful? Two Sith bring down the entire galaxy in a day. The dark is about to envelope everything? No problem, a single Jedi will make sure to stop the Two right in their tracks, only to fall during the Darth Jadus' uprising.
Both poles rise and fall in an endless cycle. In my opinion, the Force achieved perfect balance during the time period in between the Second Great Schism and the Seventh Battle of Ruusan. Only during the Great Hyperspace War and the genocide of the Sith was briefly interrupted, but it quickly returned to its balanced state as the Vitiate rebuilt the Sith Empire in secret on Dromund Kaas.

Only when someone does something massively retarded as the Exile on Malachor, or the Sith Emperor on Nathema and Ziost, it's when the Force gets wonky. Destroying or consuming entire planets, be it through Force rituals or WMDs, are effective ways to tear the fabric of the Force.

As a final point:
>tfw no Sith pureblood or Mirialan GF
Truly the shittiest galaxy.

>>53145431
>It isn't a new truth.
A awful lot of people treat it like one.

>>53124553
>call it a stupid western notion
>use examples demonstrating how westerners don't think that way
>wrong about the force anyway

only stupid thing here is you, apparently

>>53145178
Considering that he left enough ways to disagree with Kreia and left hints that she maybe mistaken or somewhat delusional I doubt you can call it a new truth. More like a new opinion or theory about the Force. We will never know because each ending assumes that Exile does not try to destroy the Force.

One of the possible interpretations is Kreia fully or partially confused cause and effect. People always led wars against each other and even without the Force it would have been the case. But Force gives individuals powers that allow them to cause unrivalled amount of influence over the course of actions in a war or any other conflict. As such jedi and sith always become centres of any conflict because in a lot of ways it depends on them.

>>53145466
An awful lot of people also think Frankenstein's monster is an imbecile with no real human thought because they know the bare minimum about the work and don't put any thought of their own into it beyond initial observations.
That, or get it second/third hand from movie adaptations that have nothing to do with the original work's core messages.

That doesn't mean they're right.

>>53145446
>Muh balance means equal amounts of both
No the Dark Side is evil, stop indulging it.

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>>53145517

>>53145539
You got anything that's not a silly frog?

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>>53145564
Dunno, do you?

>>53145592
Well let's review, every time the Dark Side is involved evil shit goes down pretty much immediately. Why is this equally acceptable as the almost 1000 years of peace the dominance of the Jedi Order brought?

>>53145514
Yeah but that doesn't mean her disciples who make KotOR threads to wave their dicks about and treat it as the One True Faith of the setting aren't obnoxious as fuck because it leads to the semi-popular idea that Jedi and somehow equally as bad as the Sith who built a philosophy on being evil dicks.

>>53145634
If we close our eyes on all the less high profile shit that was going down in Old Republic during that time yes Jedi Order was better. But they didn't mess with people who didn't rock the Republic's boat even if these people did some questionable things.

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>>53145734
>Betray your peers, enslave the useful and kill everyone else = being unable or unwilling to help certain groups

>>53145431
I've always had the feeling she was approaching it with a bias she unknowingly picked up from her lover, a member of a race that believed the best way to truly understand something was to fight it.

>>53145734
Wait, are you arguing that not stopping all evil is in any way comparable to maniacal tyranny?

>>53145835
If not for the sith it would have stayed the same way for another couple thousands years. Because unless you were a Force user you had no hope to actually "rock the boat". Jedi would have stopped you.

>>53145914
No I'm arguing that transformation of Republic into what it was before Palpatine took over was in a lot of ways a Jedi Order doing their work.

>>53145920
Oh my God you're right it changed into something far worse wtf I love the Sith now!!!

>>53145914
That is in fact exactly what is happening.

>>53145952
>Oh my God you're right it changed into something far worse wtf I love the Sith now!!!
Nah, Empire was shit. But considering how long it lasted it was a transitional period. And what came after that was somewhat better.

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>>53145634
original frog anon here
>Palpatine's Galactic Empire
>Vitiate's Sith Empire
>evil
I only see security, peace and order, anon. Or at last, an attempt to bring those to the table.

Besides, the Jedi are a bunch of self-righteous pricks as much as any other Sith, or worse as they are also hypocrites. For a group that focuses its beliefs around morals and justice, they didn't bat an eye when the Clone Wars broke out.
>here, have an endless army of easily replaceable human clones specially conditioned from birth for war
>eh sure thanks! Let's go kill some Separatist scum.

And let's ignore the fact that they kidnapped and brainwash Force sensitives from birth due to paranoia.

Post Rusaan Reformation Jedi are simply the Republic's lap dog and secret weapon.

>>53145987
>Billions die
>Galactic civil war TWO OF THEM

But hay at least all that organised crime causing the suffering and the slavery like the Hutts is gone oh wait, no that's not the case at all and oh and would the look at that it was the Jedi who had to fix everything, sorry what was your point?

>>53146010
>I only see security, peace and order, anon. Or at last, an attempt to bring those to the table.

There were those things before the emperor decided to manipulate the republic into a giant civil war, and there wasn't the threat of open rebellion either.

The empire destroyed law and order, held a gun to the heads of anyone that didn't like it, then proclaimed the result "peace."

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>>53145987
>and what came after was somewhat better
>a fragmented galaxy that spiralled down to open warfare between the Imperial remnants themselves, the Republic, and eventually an alien species from beyond the galaxy
>better

Heck, even during the the Legacy era the galaxy was still fucked up due to the collapse of Palpatine's Empire.

>>53146010
Yes the Galactic Empire are evil someone helpfully graffitied it in space for you at the beginning of ANH and then later in the film they delete a couple of billion people to make a point.

>a fine universe with good amount of handcrafted lore just so happens to have retarded philosophy as a base
>a man is tasked to make an RPG about such universe
>watches through every single material concerning the universe
>sees the philosophy at a base for what it is, simplistic drivel that works fine in simple hero tales and breaks apart in any kind of mildly morally ambigous situation
>decides to make a game about all the ways philosophy is retarded for fun, while also respecting the lore and minute details for more fun
>makes an entire character who often argues devil's advocate with you to push a revolutionary idea of "perhaps not being a retard requires thinking for yourself once in a while"
>said character also chastises you for reflexively doing evil deeds that don't help you and good deeds that don't help others, if you make those
>her rejected pupils were rejected exactly because they were addicted to doing evil deeds that didn't make their lives better
>really it's pretty much old hag Nietzsche
>said character also makes up a motivation near the end about wanting to "kill the Force" or whatever just so you fight her and then don't feel shacked to her either
>reeee why does the evil sith hag say good is not good and evil is not evil it's wrong!!! if good guys kill evil they are the best because evil guys are the worst!!!
Didn't know /tg/ was contrarian about that one.
Sure, it's not like dismantling a childish ideology that everybody else tries to work around is in any way preferable to workign around it too, but the result was fun and well-written, so who cares.

>>53146044
Hutts were never going anywhere. Until Vong invasion Huttspace just fucked over whoever they wanted.

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>>53146114
And nothing of value lost.

Thanks to TOR, I can't feel but joy whenever I watch Alderaan's destruction.
Fuck that place and everyone who lives on it.

>>53146081
And you think Palpatine created civil war from air? It would have happened sooner or later. Even without him Republic was moving to a whole lot of civil wars no matter would have Trade Federation been beaten or not.

>>53146140
But then we have to ask the deadly questions, is it really retarded and if it is that actually a problem?

The base premise is that there is a mystical force binding all the things in the galaxy together, that some people by accident or design are more in tune with it than others and that they can use that force to influence the world around them.

Their control is tied strongly to their emotions and by indulging in their stronger ones they are subject to growing psychoses particularly an obsession with gaining and maintain power. Bam! That's it really.

And even if it is simplistic why is that a problem? What is wrong with stories of daring do, heroic knights fighting with their passions and evil space wizards who crave UNLIMITED POOOOWWWAAAAA!!!!
Why is that some searing indictment of the setting?

>>53146283
Really because I had this weird idea that it had stood for almost a thousand years and that all the war machinations we see all have a Sith lord behind them but maybe that's just silly old me. I guess you're right and we can hardly blame Sheev for all those billions of deaths.

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>>53146283
So you are saying the Republic split in two due to its own incompetence? That the Sith had nothing to do with its fall?

What the fuck are we even arguing about at this point?

>>53146368
>>53146392
Sith had everything to do with the fall of Republic in this certain way. But considering how ineffective it became it was more or less inevitable for it to succumb to infighting. It would have probably took much more time and still left a good chunk of core Republic but it would have inevitably splintered.

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>>53146459
Now I see what you were trying to say. Sorry.

Still my point stands, an unified, if totalitarian, Empire that had achieved victory on Yavin IV would have fared better in the long run than a Republic that was bound to fall over social or economic differences.

>>53146530
It is undeniably a worse regime though and it didn't defeat is rebel problem so it doesn't even live by the axiom of might makes right.

>>53146325
>Their control is tied strongly to their emotions and by indulging in their stronger ones they are subject to growing psychoses particularly an obsession with gaining and maintain power.
Denying your emotions entirely is not really the answer. Also, the answer for Jedi seems to be not the cold rationality, or careful management of their selves, or even the Buddhist setup where you only let go of attachments but not entirety of emotions, but instead it's a blind obedience to a bunch of words and denial of even love not immediately leading you to kill off children in all cases. Neither of their strategies are helpful long-term.
Yet Jedi are pure and good and beyond doubt, despite being inflexible as fuck and reluctant to admit and fix mistakes due to their psychological hangups. It's honestly more about how the setting was treating such a setup than whether it would have actually been done that way if everything was logical.
>And even if it is simplistic why is that a problem?
Because it being simplistic it starts to break the suspension of disbelief when you try doing something more complex with the setting. And since the metaphysics of the Force are a massive and crucial underlying element of how the setting is, its inherent problems break suspension of disbelief when you don't watch it hard enough and puts limitations on what stories you can do, as long as you just don't ignore the Force entirely. You have to suspend your disbelief just a little bit more when dealing with the philosophy, and it's a bad thing, because it make the suspension more prone to breaking outright.
But yet,
>What is wrong with stories of daring do, heroic knights fighting with their passions and evil space wizards who crave UNLIMITED POOOOWWWAAAAA!!!! Why is that some searing indictment of the setting?
It isn't actually wrong. As long as you recognise its limitations, it still might result in a fun story.
And there isn't anything wrong in masterfully breaking it apart either.

>>53146601
Yoda consuls letting go of attachment in many of his appearances.

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>>53146580
Touche, anon. I acknowledge your victory.

Still I wonder, was the Jedi acting retarded what doomed the Republic? They really committed treason after all: they had no proof besides a troubled Jedi's hunch that Palpatine was the mastermind behind the Separatists. So they tried to arrest him under what grounds? A conversation? The fact that for x reason a democratically-elected charismatic Sith can't hold a position of power in the Republic because the Jedi say so? They plain shat on the entire Republic constitution and legal processes because muh dark side.

>>53145171
FRevan + MExile is best combo.