/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

>Get of Fenris
>Not manhating femcunts or racial chauvinists, are civilized without getting in danger of getting used by the Weaver, don't treat their metis like garbage, best Wyrm ass, do their duty in great style

How can other doggo tribes compete?

>>53109324
By focusing on other areas of drama and exploring the interesting side of their shortcomings.

>>53109324
>How can other doggo tribes compete?

Not much really, at their best the Get of Fenrir is one of the best tribes. However that is at their best, at their worst they are hypocrites, who would either enable shitty leadership just for glory or take power themselves just measuring fighting strength and declaring everything else as "weak".

So at their worst they are the Fianna. And nobody likes the Fianna.

>>53108934
>Bullshit. If you actually roleplay your character as a person instead of just a bunch of traits and allegiances on a piece of paper then you should easily be able to emphasize with people who decided to join the Seers.
>"Level of disconnection" my fucking ass.

Dont be mad your antagonist are shitty compared to the glorious Technocracy anon.

>>53109379

Remember, it took a few editions for the technocrats to be fleshed out as anything other than evil MIB + Dr. Mengala's.

Give the Seers some time to flesh themselves out more.

>>53108105
The difference is NOT superficial.

Yes, all three represent the stereotype of lordly vampires but each are different.

>Ventrue are your vanilla noble vampires
>Lasombra are edgy social darwinist noble vampires
>Tzimisce are creepy alien noble vampires

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>can make reality your bitch
>can easily blend into human society
>no noticeable downsides
>are still human
MAGE SUPREMACY is not a meme it's real fucking life. How can the other splats hope to compete?

>>53109411
they had their own book ffs, how much more fleshed out do you want them?

>>53109411
>Give the Seers some time to flesh themselves out more.

That is not how it went, originally they were meant to be kept as 1 dimensional bad guys like the Seers but WW incompetence made them relatable and reluctantly went with it because people like the complex technocracy way more.

However Dave have stated he wont commit the same mistake the previous devs so the seers will remain as they are.

>>53109532
>oh now our shitty black and white universe is starting to get some depth but nope writing a grey universe is too hard.

I kind of want a Requiem game on PC.

>>53109653

What would it be about? How would it start? Would you play as a newly made vampire? Would your sire get executed for making a childe without permission? Is that even a thing, asking permission for Embracing? Would your Clan be predetermined in character creation or would it be influenced by some kind of tutorial section that tests you for what you'd be suited best?

The one thing I do know about Requiem is that it has Blood Potency, which is something acquired either through diablerie, passing of years or probably some weird, barely known blood magic ritual, and without a higher BP you'd probably be ill equipped to fight anyone that's got more than 1 BP.

>>53109514
I don't know Anon, Paradox is still a pretty noticeable downside.
I mean, Mages still reign supreme, but their throne has some spots you just can't polish out.

>>53109610
>>oh now our shitty black and white universe is starting to get some depth but nope writing a grey universe is too hard.

It was more

>>Ah now we wrote a perfect technocracy handbook that must be taken as propaganda for the technocracy because nobody could ever take them as good guys and we put the stat "brainwashed" so that means this is all to be taken as propaganda.
>>What!? People actually like the technocracy as complicated bad guys? Some people even agree with them? WHY!? HOW!? WW knows all gamers to be antifascist of any kind or form and they are a bunch of nonconformist who only eat in "small or organic" business! THEY ARE WRECKING OUR CREATIVE VISION!!!
>>*gasp* we just remembered we need more money all that organic coke we consume! I guess we can capitalize into our own incompetence and maybe learn that our public doesn't subscribe to our political ideas as much as we think we do and maybe grow up and become a better company.......or we can just put things in place so noone can misread our intent and we can write our shitty factions as much as we can and no amount of luck will save us.

>>53109610
Looks the Seers DO do something good stuff.
They hold back nasty Spirits, they smack down powerful Mages who'd want to fuck with the status quo.
Most of them would rather hoard knowledge for their own use, rather than destroy it as Banishers would.
And they'll still fight just as hard against Scelstus and the Abyss as Mages. More perhaps, as their bosses will have their very soul if they fail.

Well intentioned Seers don't last long, but even someone with bad intentions can save the world. And saving the world is EXACTLY what their Masters want them to do. Well, perhaps not save, but maintain only a certain level of shittiness.

>>53109379
>Dont be mad your antagonist are shitty compared to the glorious Technocracy anon.

But..., the Technocracy are the real *heroes* of the WOD.

>Don't believe Reality Deviant propaganda

>>53109679
These are good questions.

>What would it be about? How would it start?
Open ended RPG would be cool. Maybe add some God-Machine stuff as the ultimate antagonist.
>Would you play as a newly made vampire?
Sure, a good way to make a pc at your choice.
>Would your sire get executed for making a childe without permission? Is that even a thing, asking permission for Embracing?

That'd be too rehashy of the old game. I haven't seen anything to suggest that's a thing in the CoD. Please correct me if I'm wrong however.

>Would your Clan be predetermined in character creation or would it be influenced by some kind of tutorial section that tests you for what you'd be suited best?

I like pre-determined in character creation, your sire has slightly different looks depending on the clan.

During "Act 1" would be a good place to choose a bloodline, however.

>>53109830

>Open ended RPG would be cool.

What does this mean? What the hell is the hook that's supposed to pull in people to play the game, other than the fact that it's a vampire game and there hasn't been a good one made since 2004?

>>53109871
It means there's more than one ending depending on your choices.

>>53109610
It's also too hard to actually read about something before you shit on it, apparently.

>>53109902

Okay, but let's forget about the ending for a bit. Tell me about the beginning. Or do you think just the prospect of having multiple endings is enough to pull in new people to play the game?

Look, in Bloodlines, you had an easy start to things. LaCroix puts you out there to do shit for him and he notifies you of what via emails. But you had more than just that going on. You had the whole of Santa Monica to play around in, meet new interesting NPCs, explore the Vampire part of WoD for newbies.

What do you propose there be in the beginning of the game for Requiem to pull in people, to make them want to play more of the game?

>>53109930
My proposition would be a big city as well. You can do quests for your clan and interact with other clans as well. You don't necessarily have to meet with the big players instantly and already be in the eyes of the local bigshot or anything. Hell, I would say your embrace was pretty average, unlike VTM, where you were "special". It's what you do with your unlife.

You can start building a little herd too.

As for enemies, Belial's Brood would be a good foe, besides dumb humans.

As the story progresses, we can move beyond vampires and even have to fight/befriend other monsters in the setting.

>>53110027

What about covenants? Requiem seems to be pretty big on those. What would you make available for the players? Carthians? Lancea? Invictus? Those three seem like the safest options.

>>53110050
Oh yeah good catch, you can dance around the covenants before you have to make a choice. This will inevitably cause some power shifts in the city during the story which you can ultimately push, kind of like you can do with Lacroix if you didn't like him.

>>53109653

Personally, I can't help but think a game set in Ancient Rome would be great. Basically Fall of the Camarilla.

>>53110229

A Vampire game, be oWoD or nWoD, would probably be a lot more enjoyable in some historic periods, like Dark Ages, because you wouldn't have to worry about masquerade breaches.

>>53110253

It can't be any worse that the weird SJW one they made, the one that was sort of a half-assed gamebook. Or the Mage one about the Syrian refugee crisis.

Those were just retarded.

>>53110297

Ah, those, I only saw some brief mention of them. Someone described them as interactive fiction, rather than video games. More mobile shit, than anything else.

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>>53110297
You're telling me you didn't like the transgendered vegan thinblood that only feed on vegans and also murder republicans?

>>53110317

They were mobile, but they were mostly shit.

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>>53110317
Oh shit, did a book trigger you honey?

Do you need your safe space?

>>53110420

What are you talking about? Sure you didn't misquote?

Tell me about your C20 characters.

You have one, right?

>>53110435

My bad, that comment was meant for
>>53110297
>>53110323

>>53110665
Im working on a cowboy Eshu who has a Chimerical hat and cloak that act like Endure Elements from D&D, and a chimerical dog thats like Dogmeat but better. Hes also a knight of House Liam.

>>53110027
Grand theft blood, huge open city, theres "missions" you can do with various factions/covenants, but otherwise you do wtf you want. Insert the main plot that bumps into you and voila, perfect game!

>>53110027
>You can do quests for your clan and interact with other clans as well.

Anon, clan is meaningless in requiem

To wat degree does the sight of fire pushes the vampire to Rothschreck in oWoD?
Is a blind vampire less influenced by fire since he cannot see it?
I'm talking about only seeing a fire, not actually touching it

>>53111000
Nice digits.

It depends on the vampire- a particularly cowardly one might enter it if he sees so much as a campfire, but regarding Rotschreck it's usually an all-or-nothing reaction.

Regarding the blind vampire I would say that even if he couldn't see it he could probably still feel the warmth and smell stuff burning which would doubtlessly panic him

>>53111041
Would a vampire be able to use a flaming sword?
I'm coming up with the idea to make the Sheriff in my oWoD campaign a blind Toreador who uses a sword and has some lore of fire thaumathurgy to play with

>>53111000
I think its more surprised by fire, controlled fire is ok in dark ages, as thats the only light source, its when it surprises them or is out of control, or used aggresively at em, seeing somebody light a cig across a roon isnt going to make them freak the fuck out and run for the hills

>>53111142
>>53111153
Vampires are okay with fire if they're in control of it, or its otherwise not an immediate threat. Being near a campfire won't cause Rotschreck unless they actually think they might fall/get pushed in. Holding a flaming sword is perfectly fine, but if it's being used against you that'll cause Rotschreck.

>>53111041
Blind people can still feel heat from fires and hear them burning. Significantly large and hot fires will probably freak out said vampire.

>>53111200
Yeah that's what I said

>>53111200
not seeing the fire is probably scarier than seeing it, so it might cause rotcheck more often in blind vampires ;)

> Body of the Sun: Transform your body into blazing indestructible fire

I know it's a 10-dot power, but holy fuck.

And speaking of which, who the hell even has 10 dot abilities to begin with, other than Antediluvians, Caine and the like?

>>53111237
Just them, and I think there's a thaumatargical ritual that allows you to temporarily use a power outside your dot limit so a 4th as well

>>53111277

So what's the cutoff for an 11th/10th generation vampire in terms of how powerful they can get, i.e. how many dots of some Discipline they can use?

>>53111317
10th generation vampires can only reach 5 dots in a discipline as absolute max.

But they can push past the limit if they manage to lower their generation

>>53111389

Is 10th generation too powerful for PCs or is that acceptable?

>>53109610
Am I the only one who actually thinks the Seers can work as a relatable antagonist if you cast them as the strongest and most reliable force keeping out the abyss?

what's the key difference between WoD and CoD for someone who's only really familiar with CoD?

>>53111408
10th generation is basically the first of the basic generations. From 13th to 10th they all follow the same rules and limitations both in disciplines, blood pools and expendable blood points each turns.

It's not too powerful at all, it still is in the "generally acceptable generations" of most ST.

it's from 9th generation that shit hits the fan

>>53111471
>WoD
The world is on the verge of doom. The apocalypse is closing in, and these are the final days, the end is nigh!

>CoD
We're supernaturals but we don't know shit about ourselves or other supernaturals. Let's try and find our place in the world in this shitfest of supernatural creatures

>>53111471
CoD is better than WoD, thats the key difference, there are loads of other differences but that one is key

>>53111493

Oh alright then. Just reading through VtM stuff, been wondering what'd be acceptable for a newbie to play and what not.

When it comes to Dark Ages: Vampire, is 10th still the norm or is it 9th then?

>>53111514
>local pleb makes his state of being clear

>>53111509
>>53111514
given what you're describing it does sound like you can do a lot more with CoD

>>53111514

NNNNNnnnnnnno. A few of the CoD games are nice, but "is objectively better", absolutely not.

>>53111541
What would you say are the "nice" ones?

>>53111509
Additionally, classic has a more "punk" aesthetic.

>>53111541
System is better, all the love for oWoD comes from #nostalgiafags who are clinging on to the metaplot likes its some fucking twilight novel.

>>53111516
Dark Ages is set more in the past so a few lower generations are more acceptable.
i'm not failiar with the system, but a good guess would be from 10th to 8th generation.

everything lower than that is generally a no zone

>>53111528
Depends on what is your gig.

One is not better than the other, all depends on the feel you want to give to your game and how inventive you are, since the game itself states that it is a game and it's up to the ST to come up with the story, blatantly ignoring part or all the established lore if he wants to

Being older, my guess is that WoD has more stuff and more splats, but quality goes from very good (Werewolf the Apocalypse, Hunter the Reckoning) to absolute shit (Kindred of the East)

CoD is younger and has more space to grow, but i don't know about the quality of single splats since i don't really play it

>>53111604

Depends owod system has highs and downs. Nwod doesnt have neither is just a constant stream of mediocrity.

>>53111728
Wrong.
nWoD ups: Mage, Changeling, Demon
nWoD downs: Geist, Beast

>>53111710
>CoD is younger and has more space to grow, but i don't know about the quality of single splats since i don't really play it


Good: requiem, changeling (1st), vigil

Divisive: awakening, Changeling (2nd)

Who the fuck plays this?: mummy, demon, deviant, promethean

Shit: beast, geist

>>53111604
Can you really blame people for falling in love with the oWoD story? It was fucking unique.

>>53111777

I meant the general system. Lines aside the basic system is mediocre.

>>53111783
Is 2nd changeling even out yet? Also am I the only one who likes D:tD?

>>53111801
I'm not familiar with oWoD so I can't compare easily but what are the big system differences?

How can I get my D&D players to try VTM? I really want to run this but my players are lazy fuckers.

In Demon: The Fallen what's the difference between a Demonic Relic and an Earthbound? Is it just a matter of time before a Demonic Relic becomes an Earthbound?

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>Reading Clanbook Gangrel; Revised
>Get to this part

wew lad

>>53111913

I don't get it. What, more desperate people leaving the cities or something?

>>53111824
owod has fixed dicepools with target numbers from 6-10, different health system, makes you roll to soak damage, botches (many versions) are aids and in earlier versions you had the same chance to botch as to succeed no matter dice pools. CoD is a tighter, better sysyem in both incarnations, 2e is even better, though im unsure about beats and hate the word experiences..but figure once i use it i'll get used to it

>>53111416
Well, they're not. Quiescence and Paradox empower the Abyss, and the Seers protect both.

>>53110229
Ideally one with less in the way of shitty railroading than the Fall of the Camarilla gamebook.

>>53111919
Mainly that the thought of the stock market bubble popping was treated so lightly 7 years before the great recession happened.

Puts things into perspective; what else that we're joking about now will be true in a decade or less?

So is WoD not a thing anymore and only CoD is? Or is there some new WoD that is different enough from WoD? Please excuse my idiocy, I only played Mage (nWoD) like twice and that was my only WoD experience.

>>53111929

Wrong in nwod botches were impossible unless the dm put you in a no win scenario or houserule that once you see the dicepool there is no take backs.

To get a dramatic failure you need to get your dicepool reduce to 0 or less, then choose to roll any way. Then you roll a 1d10. 10 is a success and there is no rerolls. 1 is a dramatic failure.

2nd edition is the same only that you can choose to transform a failure into a dramatic failure for a beat (a form of xp). Is basically a fix to the "never happen" of dramatic failures and is just patching the fact that 2nd edition was built on a poor foundation (1st).

>>53112098
WoD and CoD are now two completely different things

Wod is the "Old world of Darkness", who was discontinued in 2004 to make place for the "New World of Darkness"
This until roughly 2010-2011, when nWod became Chronicles of darkness and went its marry way, and the oWoD resurfaced with the 20th anniversay editions of manuals and new and improved splatbooks and sources

So basically now both lines exist and coexist, but they don't have almost anything to do with each other, but there were provided some translations tables to adapt books and sources from a line to the other, in order to give Storytellers more way to make up their own stories

>>53112098
>>53112169

And in addition to all that, there's now a new edition of World of Darkness being made, which some call "One World of Darkness" (seriously,this is the best they could come up with?), which will focus more on rewritting oWoD stuff and adding new things, while nWoD/CofD keep up with whatever they're doing.

>>53112109
i was talking about earlier versions of owod you fucking numnut, where any 1 canceled a success

>>53112169
Ok that makes sense.

>>53112204
So does nWoD/CoD have its own metaplot, continuation of (o)WoD, or does away with metaplot?

>>53112241
nwod/CoD has no metaplot, good or bad as that might be

>>53112241

Nah, nWoD/CofD has no metaplot.

It's more of a personal experience, more focused on you as a player, as an individual, rather than as a part of a whole, if I'm making any sense.

>>53109324
Stargazers are better

>>53112261
>>53112253
Looks like if I were to play one again I'd want nWoD/CoD then. Thanks.

>>53112288
Play 2e mage awakening, then you can shit all over everybody

>>53112204
Is all the Gehenna stuff in Beckett's Jyhad Diary part of this whole rewriting thing?

>>53112240
>i was talking about earlier versions of owod you fucking numnut, where any 1 canceled a success

And i was pointing out how your precious CofD isnt as perfect as you make it out to be, fanboy.

>>53112317

Beckett's Jyhad Diary is done by OPP, if I'm not mistaken. You can consider that as part of the 20th Anniversary pack, rather than anything that's going to be used by White Wolf when their stuff starts coming out.

>>53112336
Did i say it was perfect, i said it was better, argue how it isnt or fuck off.

No, bye bye then

>>53112336
very low often no chance of critical fails is a bad thing?

>>53110665
No because my DM already has a Changelling group with 5-6 people and there's no hope to play anything serious in the near future.

>>53112452
You can still make a character and wank over its character sheet like everybody else..

>>53111142
Dunno if it's a taumaturgy ritual or only dur-an-ki, but in our Assamite game our sorcerer makes flaming swords for me (the warrior) and the vizier constantly.

>>53112098
Actually in my experience it's CoD that is not a thing anymore. Maybe it's because I'm not american but my only contact with CoD has been masqueradefags complaining about Requiem. On the other hand WoD has had some ups and downs but VtM and (to a lesser degree) WtA are there to stay forever in some form or other in the playing community, kinda like D&D or Cthulhu.

>>53112514
No because I get depressed when trying to and I have to stop.

So what are the biggest differences between the werewolves of Apocalypse and the ones from Forsaken?

>>53112700
Apocalypse werewolves have an actual point and a good gameline supporting them.

Aside from that, the biggest difference is that Apocalypse werewolves are warriors for Gaia, fighting to save the world from encroaching doom, whereas Forsaken werewolves are divinely ordained hunters who more or less coincidentally sometimes keep bits of the world safe from other bits.

>>53112700

Apocalypse:
+Huge social structure to explore/know where your PC stands and know what to do.
+2 good enemies with clear function. The BSDs/pentex as the fun irredeemable black hats to kill by the truckloads and the asshole tribes as the complex grey are.
+A well explore theme of the consequences of power and how having good intentions doesn't excuse you.
+Barbaric society in modern times.
+No shoehorn in morality stat, and that actually helps with the theme.

- Any good theme you get from WTA was probably not what the author intended, they most likely wanted furry captain planet.
-Ungodly shitty mechanics.
-Some setting choices dont make much sense (only kinfolk can forge klaives)


Forsaken:
+Good mechanics minus shoehorn in trigger/harmony.
+/- No social structure of any kind to "limit" your "creativity".
+ 1 theme and big focus on said theme.
+ 6 interesting concept for enemies.e

-1 theme and the game fights you back if you wanna run it with another theme.
- Of those 6 enemies, 2 need updates and the game fails and one of those 1 (The pure) the game ask you to humanize them but also paint them as a hate group.
-Very very little material updated.
-Tribes are meaningless socially, so you only join them for a combination of 1 vows and something you wanna hunt.

>>53112913
>>53112848

Thank you.

>>53112381
>Did i say it was perfect, i said it was better, argue how it isnt or fuck off.
>No, bye bye then

Fuck off. NWoD and by extension CoFD have too high of a target number and exploding dice to all rolls so you will run as DM you dont know when the combat monster of 20 dices is gonna fail all of them or the 4 dice-pool goon is gonna get 12 successes and kill the player.

In unpredictable on the worst sense possible.

Mechanically it can decide whether it wants to be fate or a high crunchy system so it stands awkwardly in the middle mixing "narrative" mechanics with crunchy bit with can get off putting and not mesh well in many places.

On a more ymmv note, the system progression is basically a misery engine, the more you spectacularly fail the more XP you will get which can not be to everyone tastes.

>>53112998
And oWoD isnt unpredictable either, thats a lame ass argument.

I could exchange all references to nwod with owod ignoring exploding dice and adding botch mechanics, soaking and you wont know wtf somebody will do either, they could hit/whiff/allbesoaked/botch

oWod also can get up to target 10? thats higher than CoFD so too high a TN is a fucking retarded statement

>>53113065
>oWod also can get up to target 10? thats higher than CoFD so too high a TN is a fucking retarded statement

So? That not for all rolls, the regular TN for OWoD was 6. The problem is all roll has a high difficulty combined with exploding dices.

The Seers are ultimately about temptation. You want it, they've got it. And it can be yours for the price of bending your knee to outer gods with massive bank accounts and troves of artifacts.

Lets face it, everyone here can see the appeal of doing Tass-infused blow off a vampire stripper's bare ass in a hall full of werewolves you turned to sliver and then banging her into torpor.

The Pentacle says bullshit drudgework is it's own reward. The Seers say the reward for bullshit drudgework is the right to engage in Exalted-esque power fantasies.

It's a goddamn miracle of human nature that the Pentacle outnumbers them 2 to 1.

>>53110297
Ah yes, do anything but embrace the refugees wholeheartedly or you join the union!

Both Traditions and Technos should have mixed opinions about the subject:

For the Trads it's a question about Diversity vs. Cultural Integrity.

For the Technos its Globalism vs. Superstitionists.

For the Nephandi, it's win fucking win. These two groups learn to hate each other for any reason they can concoct.

For Marauders, well, Marauders have too much perspective for their own good.

>>53111783
...I like Geist.

>>53111811
...I like Demon.

>>53113377
So the Seers are basically the Mafia without an ethnic requirement. Tempting for some, but the majority of the population doesn't consist of organized criminals, so I'm not sure if the Pentacle's numerical superiority is that surprising.

>>53113437

Like the Mafia at it's peak, and that's just at the lowest levels.

>>53113521
The thing is that, while many, many people are content with simply passively allowing evil to happen, the Seers demand that you actually do evil, and that's a rather higher threshold for most people.

>>53113377
>>53113437

The bullshit drudge work of the pentacle is also due to the rejection of the exarchs lie. For example, despite the hubris cost, nearly any mage can become a multimillionaire. But the pursuit of such material wealth is exactly what 'The Chancellor' wants you to do or 'The Psycopomp' with the pursuit of immortality etc.

>>53113377
>It's a goddamn miracle of human nature that the Pentacle outnumbers them 2 to 1

People are shitty. The nature of Seer politics is why their numbers are so low.

>>53111317

Here's a quick little guide:

3rd Gen: 10 Dots max, Max Blood Pool and blood per turn is UNKNOWN (left up to the Storyteller).

4th Gen: 9 Dots max, Blood Pool is 50, 10 blood points per turn.

5th Gen: 8 Dots max, Blood Pool is 40, 8 blood points per turn.

6th Gen: 7 Dots max, Blood Pool is 30, 6 blood points per turn.

7th Gen: 6 Dots max, Blood Pool is 20, 4 blood points per turn.

8th Gen: 5 Dots max, Blood Pool is 15, 3 blood points per turn.

9th Gen: 5 Dots max, Blood Pool is 14, 2 blood points per turn.

10th Gen: 5 Dots max, Blood Pool is 13, 1 blood point per turn.

11th Gen: 5 Dots max, Blood Pool is 12, 1 blood point per turn.

12th Gen: 5 Dots max, Blood Pool is 11, 1 blood point per turn.

13th Gen: 5 Dots max, Blood Pool is 10, 1 blood point per turn.

14th Gen: 4 Dots max, Blood Pool is 10, 1 blood point per turn, 2 of their blood points are "locked" and cannot be used for anything else than rising up at night. Embracing only has a 20% chance to succeed, but you can still create ghouls unless you take the "Thin Blood" perk.

15th Gen, 3 Dots max, Blood Pool is 10, 1 blood point per turn, 4 of their blood points are "locked" and cannot be used for anything else than rising up at night. They cannot Embrace or create ghouls, and any blood-related activities (such as healing or using blood for Disciplines) cost twice the usual amount of blood, with the exception of rising every night: that still only takes one blood point. On the upside, they gain the "Eat Food" merit for free, and take only lethal damage from sunlight, and could potentially have a dhampir (half-vampire) child with a regular human.

>>53111277
>I think there's a thaumatargical ritual that allows you to temporarily use a power outside your dot limit
Does anyone know anything about this?

>>53113901
>15th are in some ways, better than 14th with thin blood
Really makes you think

>>53114019
>>15th are in some ways, better than 14th with thin blood
>Really makes you think

Yeah, though only having 3 dots in disciplines really sucks.

So, Banishers. My go-to guys and gals for Sympathetic Antagonists.

I usually run them as "Militant Heretics too crazy for the Free Council" as opposed to "All magic is bad, m'kay" types. The latter should probably be reserved for broken awakenings.

One group I came up with, The Pure Souls, believe that magic is "weakening" because mages twist their souls into Legacies.

Souls, to them, are the portal that births magic into the world, and a warped soul leads to warped magic.

The founder of this cult was a would be Echo Walker who reacted violently to their mentor touching their soul's no-no place, and assumed that all legacies worked like that.

A group I actually ran was the Slayer Proposal. According to this group, Mages should take up the Vigil in order to preserve the innate magic of Humanity, or protect Sleepers awakened birthright, from the monsters that would strip it from them.

Being Mages, they judge different splats based on their circumstances. Worst of all are the Vampires. Every man, woman, and child who suffers the embrace is a human who will never Awaken - and they pass the curse on with horrifying ease.

>>53111957
I thought the idea was the those just widen the Abyss, but don't actually make it any more dangerous to the world?

>>53114295
Doesn't that run against the whole no template stacking thing?

>>53113377
Isn't Geist kinda broken?

>>53114671
What isn't?

>>53114484
Are hunters really a template?

>>53115000
I mean they get extra toys to play with.

Penny Dreadful is the best WoD tv show I've watched in awhile.

>>53110806
>Clan is meaningless in Requiem

Stop memeing, It isn't as stratified and made a fucking focal point like it is in Masquerade but its still there. Ventrue for example are still all about "Muh Clan" and "Muh Lineage"

>>53115072

A Mage could easily reverse-engineer most if not all endowments with the right arcana and/or by copying the technology through divination if they wanted to. So it's kind of a Moot Point.

That isn't the Proposal's focus though. Their focus is on preventing monsters from infecting other people and denying them the possibility of awakening. Basically, no template stacking is their raison d'etere(sp)

>>53115149
Nosferatu don't even have to be hideous anymore.

>>53115149

Which pales in comparison to muh lineage of the invictus.

2 nosferatus from the invictus the invictus and carthians dont owe themselves any loyalty because of clan and the only thing they got in common is their curse. Clans isn a political power normally (except those special snowflake cities where they are) and thus meaningless as a "faction".

What splats would you say are fitting for a game set in ancient Egypt? This is supposed to be around the time the mummies started being put to rest, so none of those, and it's supposed to be a more supernaturally aware society than normal.

>>53115867
Mage.

>>53115668

I'd say it's like the difference between culture and political affiliation. Two Gangrel (or whoever) are going to have similar points of reference in discussion regardless of affiliation. For example, if an Ordo Mekhet tells a Sanctified clanmate to "peep that Ventrue in the corner" they'll probably get the hint to get their Auspex on.

>>53115604

Primarily because Tzimisce were folded into the clan's portfolio. You should be unsettling in some way, even if you're not a walking masquerade violation.

>>53109050
>Changes that I would make to Mage
>Arcadia is an alien world that doesn't have contracts with the Supernal. As such, Awakened magic can't directly interact with the Wyrd, and completely fails to work in Arcadia itself.

What are you? A special snowflake Changeling whore?

>>53115932

By the same token, a black nosferatu and black mekhet could be talking and one of them could point out at a white ventrue and the nosferatu could say "hey look at the cracker" and get the hint too.

That wont mean the mekhet wont put the nosferatu to the fire because one is a sanctified and the other is circle. Same if both were of the same clan

>>53116017

True, but what game are you playing where characters kill each other at the drop of a hat?

>>53115996

That's already sort of true - but only in Faerie.

If the True Fae leave their playground, they can expect mages to do all kinds of horrible shit to them if they get caught and caca all over Wyrd.

>>53116107
I'm pretty sure Archmages can fuck with the Gentry even on their home turf.

>>53116107

What i meant was leaving interpersonal relationships aside.

Covenant loyalty > Clan loyalty

>>53115867
Mage and maybe Promethean?

>>53116259
>the faggot makes his grand entrance

fag

>>53115867
Mage
Promethean [Anubis statues and the like]
Definitely vampire

Question about honorary rank in 2e for mage/werewolf.

Do you do aggravated damage to spirits who are lower rank than you or take aggravated damage from higher ranking spirits.

>>53116280
Honorary Ranks work slightly differently in both Forsaken and Awakening.
Mages having no upper limit to their honorary spirit rank being an example.

>>53116280

For werewolves, yes to the first and no to the second.

>>53116364
The 'Honorary Rank' is quite overpowered if you happen to be an Archmage of Spirit. At Spirit 8 you are of the same status as Luna, and at Spirit 10 you can slap her into oblivion.

Are any of the following revised clanbooks worth reading for game ideas or nah
>brujah
>giovanni
>ravnos
>toreador
>tremere

>>53116437
>Spirit 10
Might as well Ascend at that point though.
Even if it's not mandatory.

>someone mentions archmages
>thread goes quiet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2a30--j37Q

>>53117003
My cats recognised a nuclear alarm and ran away to hide!

>>53117003
Discussing Archmages is essentially a nuclear strike, yes.

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What's your favorite VtM comic?

>>53117134
Requiem: Chevalier Vampire

>>53116259
fag

>>53117186
fag

>>53117003
While I like archmages, sometimes I wish they'd never been covered just so the mage circlejerk would shut the fuck up about it.

>>53117205
fag

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>>53116259
>>53116269
>>53117186
>>53117205
>>53117234
You're all faggots

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>>53117258

>>53117258
but your a bigger faggot

chronicles of fagness ruins everyting once again just by being a namefaggot.

thanks

>>53117344
fag

>>53117344
This place is pretty gay to begin with.

At risk of starting more shit, is there anyway to work around the Mage supremacy meme?

Any splat specific anti magic abilities for instance? Could a vampire blood sorcerer combat a mage?

>>53117982

No. Don't play crossover.

>>53117982
Mages have the best anti-magic. It's called Prime.
It can even be classified as anti-anti-magic.

>>53117982
There isn't, it's just the way it is. If, for some reason, you really want to do a crossover, just exclude Mage or keep everything to do with it away from your players.

>>53117982
Look, it's white room shit.
Certain low powered Mage can be challenged by other powerful splats in certain circumstances.
However after a certain point, bar exceptional luck and planning, there's very little other splats can do.

That point generally starts after Mages get Patterning and Unmaking, and can reliably achieve Exceptional Successes.

The key takeaway, is Mage Supremacy only matters if you want it to matter.
If you're running a non-Mage gameline, and you don't like it, don't have them encounter Mages, or at least, no Mage with a Gnosis or Arcanum over 2-3, and no use of crazy poweful spells.
And if you're running a crossover game with Mages and non-Mages, then you only have yourself to blame for letting them play one, and get that powerful.

>>53117982
Have them meet an all-powerful wizard who can bend space and time and have them kill him with a rock because he didn't think a rock would be able to hurt him enough to protect himself against it

>>53118340
That's how Mages are supposed to be, according to the narrative, but the mechanics really don't back that up.

>>53118374
>according to the narrative
Did you ever consider that's because you're a PC and thus less likely to fall for your splat's inherent flaw than an NPC who the GM can make as incompetent as he likes?

>>53118374
As long as Mages are NPCs i don't see any reason to bog my game down in rules

>>53118182
You'll probably need to exclude Mage for other reasons, like how from the point of view of all the other games, it's off its rocker.

If we're talking about WoD and you're dead-set on crossover, you might have better success using Dark Ages: Mage rules instead of M:tA rules. You'll have to make Foundations and Pillars for every different type of mage not included, but if you exclude technology from being magic and re-interpret Paradox accrued by canon technostuff as wear and tear requiring repairs to correct, you can probably do it pretty easily.

So any forsaken fag around?

Whats the exact use for a flayed lune from the bale hounds?

>>53118773
a dildo? NO idea but i bet you could

>>53111811
Don't worry anon you aren't alone. Demon might be one of my favorite splats

>>53117982
Don't vampires become archmage tier in Masquerade?

Where do I start in WoD? I've played D&D 3.5 and 5e, as well as Cyberpunk 2020. I really like V:TM, and I've read bits and bobs about WoD, but never really been told what handbooks you need or anything.

>>53119031
Kind of? Methuselahs and Antediluvians can ~sometimes~ match low-level Archmages, but usually not.

I plan on running a story for my Vampire the Masquerade (v20) campaign, in which a powerful malkavian inflicts a madness upon the members of our group making them think they are walking Clichés. Now, I thought about who and how, but I am yet to think of a good goal for them to achieve while being in this state. Something which brings them back to normal or even just something they can do while in this state. Any inspirational ideas?

>>53115996
It's not about Changeling, it's about explaining why mages aren't already blatantly all-powerful in every gameline.

>>53119403
Mages can affect Changelings and the Hedge
Archmages can affect True Fae and Arcadia

It's rather simple

>>53119440
I'm not a Cainefag, I'm not here to argue about mechanics. I just don't like, thematically, the idea of mages being able to control everyone else's territories. I don't want the World of Darkness to actually be the World of Mages, that everyone else just lives in.

>>53119471
>mages being able to control everyone else's territories
They don't, but they can. That's the point.
They're not going to lord over every other supernatural, they just have the capability of doing so.

It's not even by intent, it's based upon how they view the universe.
The Arcana represent everything-and-all as abstracts, symbols and phenomena.
It's not their fault if certain ones can screw over and dominate other splat purviews, it's just how things work for wizards, witches and sorcerers.

>>53119471
Thematically mages can theoretically do anything once Archmastery is achieved. This would by definition include dick waving over all other splats.

It can't be helped.

>>53119279
paint themselves in glitter and go pick up teenage girls

Serious question.

Why is it so wrong for mages to be the strongest of splatnaturals? I mean, they're bloody wizards.

>>53119856
Its not, it only ever becomes a problem in crossovers, when vamp/werefags want to do something and magefag says "i can do it better"

>>53119895
fag

>>53119856
Only in WoD are wizards the most powerful beings ever. Even in D&D 3.5, there are things stronger than wizards (also, the class wasn't restricted to one type of metaphysical being).

>>53120226
Wizards are potentially the strongest things playable in D&D, anon.
Clerics being right under them.

Wizards are frequently among the most powerful beings in fiction, period.

>>53120255
Well, strongest things playable and strongest things period are very different.

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>>53120255
>Wizards are frequently among the most powerful beings in fiction, period

Classic Doctor Strange fucks everybody up. He bested an actual omnipotent, AKA the pre-retcon Beyonder.

>>53119856
Because the various splats should be balanced?

There's no reason for them not to be.

>>53119140
According to a badly-written pile of crap that's worse than DSotBH.

>>53119692
Sure it can. Use a different system, ignore the WoD archmage book because it's flaming crap to begin with, etc.

>>53119856
>>53120255
Wizards that don't even match up with what "wizards" were. You know, in old AD&D supplements, all of the figures cited as inspiration for wizards? None of them are actually human. I'd be far less salty if you deleted mages and changelings, among others, just rushed in to fill the gaps. Particularly because open-ended effect systems end up spending all of the "saved" wordcount on how they fucking work twice or more over.

(Also clerics and druids are more powerful in some editions.)

But then, this is also missing the point that the other WoD games by no means would be fighters and rogues. Monsters are monsters, and monsters can have a higher caster level.

>>53120294
And now he's incapable of healing old women's gunshot wounds!

>>53120819
Ugh, that was awful wording. Let me rephrase by going back to said inspirations.

Merlin: part fey or demon.
Circe: Daughter of Helios.
Medea: Her father was Circe's brother by Helios.
Gandalf: A fucking angel.

For some reason, D&D casts these semi-divine, fey, or infernal miracle workers as humans who studied hard. Mage then went along with that, much like how Yama Queen Tou Mu is directly lifted from AD&D 1e's Deities and Demigods book, along with the demon archer that appeared in KotE.

>>53120819
>ignore the WoD archmage book because it's flaming crap to begin with
If we go by OWoD, sure. Masters of the Art was terrible. Horizon: Stronghold of Hope was a nice addition, but barely touched on the Archspheres as a whole.
If we go by NWoD then I will have to plainly disagree. Imperial Mysteries is an amazing supplement.

>Wizards that don't even match up with what "wizards" were
Humans having access to sorcerous workings dates back further than antiquity. I don't even know what you're getting at, to be quite frank. Your wording is a tad incoherent.

>Also clerics and druids are more powerful in some editions
Never been the case ever, unless you want to argue fourth edition.

>>53115867
So I have a long winded and complicated answer; It starts with knowing what game you wanna run. The reason a lot of books start with explanations of theme and mood is because even though it's all "The World of Darkness," the games have different feels to them. You want a game that focuses on mortals dealing with Things that are encroaching from beyond the veil? Hunter. You want a story that revolves around being born into a legacy that protects the world from spiritual threats? Werewolf or Changing Breed. You want a story about casting humanity aside to be more than humans can ever be? Vampire. You want a story about Transcending humanity and grasping absolute power, but needing to wield that power correctly, because wanton use will destroy everything? Mage. The overarching trappings aren't really that important. You can run a "Mage" game where the players are priests in various temples rather than Atlantean or Tradition based secret societies, or, for that matter, have the ability to willwork because they crossed back from the underworld. Decided you want a Hunter game? Replace the Angels in OWoD with Egyptian gods. You have to know what kind of game you are running before knowing what systems you want to use.

>>53120896
Forbidden knowledge has been prevalent throughout folklore, mythology and diluted history. Most of whom you listed had at one point dedicated a portion of their lives to eldritch lore.

>Merlin: part fey or demon.
Demon. Though this is still open to interpretation.
>Gandalf: A fucking angel.
The Maiar are more spiritual than angelic.
>Circe & Medea
You're right on both accounts.

>>53120811
Why should splat balance be advocated? So you can further feed a myth?

>>53121040
I don't touch the CofD. I tried to find something in it for at least seven years, but it never delivered.

As for the other point, even my slip in coherence should make it rather clear. D&D apparently built a foundation of one thing on a completely different concept. All well and good that gods had powers, but how does this translate into bearded willworkers in towers? There are some steps missing there that are necessary to really explain that jump.

>>53121352
>D&D apparently built a foundation of one thing on a completely different concept
Not really, it all depends on the culture in question.
French folklore had stereotypical wizards dating back hundreds of years.

Interpretations always change as well, there is no right and wrong.

>>53121040
>Never been the case ever, unless you want to argue fourth edition.
you don't know what CoDzilla is? That's 3.5. And in fifth they are generally stronger, though some wizard builds are goddamdiculous.

>>53121424
Okay, that's a start. So why do the people who merely dabble in forbidden lore get to consensus reality and technology being magic(k), and why do the "wizards" get to be more magical than monsters who are magic down to the smallest scrap of flesh? Forbidden lore alone can be easily done with hedge magic.

>>53120811
All splats should be the same then> Since thats what you really mean by "balance" right?

I roll some dice and do exactly the same amount of damage as as that splat because doing otherwise would be unbalanced. heaven forbid that splat can do something i cant, everybody be able to do everything. Holy shit mages can teleport, better allow vampires and werewolves to teleport too.....

go fuck yourself,

>>53121454
Because one is about vampires with magic blood powers.

And the other is about bending reality over a barrel and shoving your healing crystals up its ass.

>>53121425
Not even sure what you're saying. Wizards were at their peak in 3.5
They got toned down hard in 4e, and went back up in 5e.

>>53121454
Fiction is fiction. You might as well interrogate the souls of history's most famous fiction authors.

>>53117982
In oWoD vampires and other splats can buy a merit that makes them more resistant against thaumaturgy and true Magic, but I guess that's all.

>>53121454
>and why do the "wizards" get to be more magical than monsters who are magic down to the smallest scrap of flesh?
The scholars, researchers and scientists of magic? Vying for knowledge pertaining to how it works and how it functions? Be it wizardry, sorcery or witchcraft?

Yeah, I can see why they'd be above vampires, fairies, werewolves and demons.

>>53115867
Demon, if we are talking oWoD, Earthbound and demons in General are Great For atmosphere, otherwise, followers of set and kuel-jin. If CoD then changeling and mage.
>>53111888
When a Demon needs to inhabit an object in Order to "survive" that object becomes its reliquary and the demon automatically becomes an Earthbound, it loses its virtues and he gains urges. It Will also gain torment really rapidly, making him Lose all sanity and morality it gained before as a human over time, but you can try to find a new human host before that happens and Save yourself.

I'm trying to get a feel for Spirit Ranks.

What would be the ranks of the following spirits. Feel free to add examples if you want.

The spirit of a city
The spirit of the main power transformer for a city
The spirit of a raunchy biker bar
The spirit of Jupiter
The spirit of a black hole
The spirit of a galaxy
The spirit of a forest fire
The spirit of fire

>>53121680
In most fictional universes vampires are top notch in terms of power, with vampirism being only a "condition" that doesn't make the use of Magic impossible, then we also have demons, that can be random realm destroyers and masters of dark arts. Wizards are powerful as shit, and studied Magic so they Know How it work, on the other hand these beings understand Magic in an instinctive Level, understanding the principles of Magic For them is Like breathing, just as Natural. But it all depends on the setting.

>>53121895
You're being too specific there, friend. It all depends on the fictional setting in question.

>>53121895
In most fictional settings wizards tend to have the highest power caps compared to vampires, demons etc. In some cases (a lot, actually) actually managing to topple gods.

The strongest fictional wizards, if you could list them all, would be a great deal more powerful than the strongest fictional vampires as a whole.

>>53121942
>I say it depends on the settimgs
I get an answer saying that I am being too specific and it depends on the setting

Derp
>>53121970
I do powerlevel battles as a hobby, and there are vampires that are multiversal treats and well above the concept of gods, I will male examples when I will be back, because now I'm going to bed, but I can suggest you to look up the story where Cosmic Armor Superman appears For example.

>>53122028
>I do powerlevel battles as a hobby
Not a hobby, it's something everyone specializes at on this thing called the Internet.
You're not a special case.

>and there are vampires that are multiversal treats and well above the concept of gods
Oh I know, and there are plenty of wizards above even that. Mandrakk is honest to god one of the most powerful fictional entities out there, yet even he isn't going to stop sorcerers such as those from Umineko.

This is a pointless discussion though, just declaring the fact that fictional vampires tend to be much lower than fictional magicians, especially at the higher end.

>>53121895
>In most fictional universes vampires are top notch in terms of power
I've noticed the opposite, in fact.

>vampirism being only a "condition" that doesn't make the use of Magic impossible
Something often overlooked in fictional works. Dracula was a powerful sorcerer, one of the ten graduates of Scholomance. Makes you wonder who the other nine sorcerers were.

>>53121893
From most powerful to least:

Mage Spheres (Life, Time, Forces, Matter, etc.)
Humanistic ideas (Justice, Freedom, Chaos, War, Tyranny, etc.)
Galaxy, Black Hole
Most Stars
Most Planets
Forest Fire, City
Power transformer, Biker Bar

>>53122028
You sound biased and pretentious as fuck.

Go to bed, kiddo.

>>53122086
I don't want to sound arrogant or a special snowflake, but mine isn't mere internet searching knowledge but a years Long study about the nature of "power" and its definition. I'm well aware of Umineko, and I would Like to make a discussion about it if it wasn't OT and I wasn't in serious need of sleep, but later I could spend one post discussing about wizards and the Like.

>>53121529
Casters, of which Wizards are often near the top, is what you're talking about. Divine casters know all available spells and have access to things Wizards don't.

>>53122176
>I don't want to sound arrogant or a special snowflake, but mine isn't mere internet searching knowledge but a years Long study about the nature of "power" and its definition
lol

You are a pretentious little bugger, ain't ya? There are literally hundreds of you over at ComicVine, SpaceBattles etc.

>>53122146
I'm sorry that wasn't My intention, as I Said before.
>go to bed kiddo
Isn't this some kind of contraddiction on Your way of speaking? Also is 7 am in Here, not really a kid hour.

>>53122185
>Divine casters know all available spells and have access to things Wizards don't.
So like every class?

You're not making much of a statement.

>>53122217
things = spells

>>53122086
>Umineko
Some of the witches in this verse are literally unbeatable.

Featherine is an actual omnipotent sorceress only under restrain due to the crown/halo she wears.

>>53122200
Except that People in these sites would basically post out of context scans of things while blatlantly using words they don't understand that other People use. I'm trying to do a better job than that, if that makes you rage, I'm sorry, I just want to say that My dedication is way different and My methodology more affidable.

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>Mandrakk
>Featherine

Ironically, the witch is a direct counter to the Dark Monitor by function of how she works. Lambdadelta and Bernkastel on their own would be enough to combat the Thought Robot.

>>53122282
Though Robot / CA Superman is essentially living plot armor, whilst Lamb and Bern are essentially editors, with Feathering being the actual author.

The winner is rather obvious.

>>53122253
>i'm right
>you're wrong
>I know my shit
>you don't know your shit

Gee, you sound like so many people at once. Your peers are over at the sites previously mentioned.

>>53112109
>. Then you roll a 1d10. 10 is a success and there is no rerolls
Actually you keep rolling 10s on a chance die in 1e.

>>53122028
Mandrakk the Dark Monitor (along with daddy Drac from Vampire Hunter D) is the only outlier for fictional vampires being anything major in power schemes.

I might as well give out an honorable mention to the weird giant gargoyle planet eating vampires from Doctor Who.

>>53122238
In terms of potential, wizards have always outweighed clerics in each and every edition.

Is that what you're getting at?

>>53121895
>In most fictional universes vampires are top notch in terms of power

No, not really. Vampires are consistently weak as shit in most fiction works. It's the exact fucking opposite for wizards, witches and warlocks, etc.

>>53111811
IMO Demon blows the other splats out of the water as far as both a unique story and the mechanical depth involved. Like, it isn't actually a complete system without Flowers of Hell, but once you have that, I love that there's pretty much no limit to what I can work towards as a Demon, even if I can't pull arbitrary cosmic forces out of my ass on a moments notice.

The multiple games of Demon, and games containing Demons, that I've played in have been excellent.

>>53122176
Where are those fag posters when you need them.

>>53122253
Literally the exact same thing they all say.

>Strongest fictional vampire, Mandrakk
vs
>Strongest fictional wizard, Featherine

>Featherine wins.

I'm not actually sure if there's anything that can actually beat the supreme sorceress.
She's intentionally inhibiting herself from achieving omnipotence to contain her identity, by her headpiece alone.
Her Author Authority is also absolute in application, ain't no way around it.

>http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Author_Authority

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>>53122702
Oh, and another important factor:
Demons are the only *modern* horrors in the World of Darkness. Like sure, there are eldritch gribblies that can crawl around on the internet as computer programs or whatever, but everything else in WoD is fundamentally a very old fear. The Demons and Angels in D:tD appeal to very recent fears. The idea that the entirety of human society is not actually for human benefit and was set up to serve something else. That you could be unpersoned, all of your identity stolen, by completely mundane means. That maybe, there's something out there that can do whatever it wants to you in broad daylight and everyone will turn a blind eye to it because they've been conditioned to do so.

>>53112241
I mean, there are things that become clearer from reading multiple books or books that make reference to the same event from different perspectives, but in so far as there is any kind of fledgling metaplot to nWoD/CofD, it has no chronological progression. There is only the state of things as of your campaign, there aren't any books that are "the next chapter" of the story so to speak.

>>53117982
From my experiences, the only things in nWoD that could match an equivalent XP Mage is a Vampire basically attacking them straight out of a barrel and into melee with them with Celerity and Protean active, while they aren't expecting anything, which seems a little unfair since a Mage would obliterate them many times over if they had the same level of informational advantage.

Sin-Eaters *can* challenge Mages to a slugging match if they are built properly, because while they are less tactically flexible, their ability to deal unmitigated damage and take it in a conventional sense is much more developed, and they can intrinsically ignore a lot of the save or dies that a Mage would usually throw out to win a fight with another super like spatial isolation etc. Even then, they aren't *fast* enough to ever guarantee a victory with a Mage, just good odds.

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>>53122788
>I'm not actually sure if there's anything that can actually beat the supreme sorceress.
Yeah, but the old woman is a total cunt of a drunk. So somebody needs to slap her.

>>53122898
I wouldn't even bet on a Sin-Eater to take on a Mage, to be honest. Especially if the Mage in-question happens to be of the Moros.

>>53121893
>A City
Very much depends on the city. Rank probably on the order of high rank 3 for a tiny shithole to high Rank 5 for somewhere huge and world renown / well historied like New York, Las Vegas, London or Paris.
>The main power transformer for a city
Again that would depend I suspect, but I'd shave a full rank off of the equivalent city spirit.
>A raunchy biker bar
High rank 1 to Mid rank 2 depending on how good business is.
>Jupiter
This is more of a GMs decision, but somewhere between Mid Rank 6 and High Rank 8. Stellar bodies have absolutely no emotional charge to feed their essence, but the undeniable physical existence of such a titanic physical body means their representative spirit has substantial momentum. Despite Jupiter being magnitudes larger than say, Luna or Earth, it isn't fed by emotions or thoughts, or part of the laws of the universe, so it wouldn't ever reach the heights of power that Rank 9 or 10 would imply.
>The spirit of a Black Hole
Probably Rank 8. It's massive, it has some good resonance going by virtue of being the ultimate destroyer of things, but it's cosmically speaking out in the fucking boonies and irrelevant.
>The Spirit of a Galaxy
Low Rank 10 I guess. Honestly, I'm unconvinced that this is even something you should be pondering.
>A Forest Fire
Could vary substantially depending on significance, and its more likely that the fire was started by a pre-existing fire spirit who has now functionally become the spirit of that fire. You could expect anything from High Rank 2 to Low Rank 5 depending on various bullshit.
>The spirit of literally all fire ever
Uhhhh... Rank 7 I guess? This is very difficult to gauge. I suspect the Rank 7 entity of fire has a hell of a lot of other things they manage as well, like coal or some shit.

>>53122107
Food for Dracula.

That being said, the Scholomance thing (and VtM being originally an Ars Magica hack) is why the Tremere were a thing. Also the pages and pages (and pages and pages) of Blood Magic throughout the run of the oWoD.

>>53123079
>Food for Dracula
Heh, doubt that. Dracula became a vampire after he graduated, and concurrently wasn't the most powerful of the ten sorcerers; the best student being kept as aide-de-camp.

The other nine went their separate ways.

>>53122993
I mean, being a Moros means that they can't use any of their cheap tricks like just sending ghost assassins or whatever, but if they do something like distribute their consciousness over a 3km wide area and then set the entire area and everything in it on fire, something they can do with relative ease with the right build, that would probably fuck a Moros substantially more than the other paths.

Geists just have a very poorly written book and it's wildly unclear how powerful they were intended to be, if you pick the right stuff you can definitely trade blows with a Mage. They're going to be less confused by how you are killing them than others (Since normally they could just go invisible and cause you to drown to death and you'd have no idea why, whereas Mage sight reveals the trick to it fairly quickly), but merely having substantial control over the death arcana isn't enough to nullify their ability to hurt you, nullify their ability to tank damage, or nullify their ability to alter their fundamental state of existence to the point that mind controls, spatial isolations, and other insta-win buttons are ineffective.

Like, to be clear, my definition of good odds is "Better than 30% chance of victory with equivalent XP in an urban environment where both parties initially have equivalent awareness and intel of each other" which is pretty much the best you can get against a mage.

>>53123178
Your Sin-Eater sounds way too specific and specialized, while a Moros with a few dots in other Arcana could counter all of that, provided he/she prepares beforehand.

Though why even prepare when you got Time?

>>53113377
>It's a goddamn miracle of human nature that the Pentacle outnumbers them 2 to 1.
huh? I always thought the seers were like ten to one against the pentacle, where do you get that from?

>>53123178
>but merely having substantial control over the death arcana isn't enough to nullify their ability to hurt you, nullify their ability to tank damage, or nullify their ability to alter their fundamental state of existence to the point that mind controls, spatial isolations, and other insta-win buttons are ineffective.

It's enough to locate the Sin-Eaters actual body and Unmake it with an Exceptional Success.

>>53117982
Easy. Do away with exceptional success ignoring resolve and increase the XP cost for buying up arcanum. You might have to tinker with one or two other affects but by and large that fixes most things.

>>53123316
Withstand, not resolve. Whoops.

>>53123178
So minimal dots in Forces, Mind, Matter, Death and Space to fuck with a highly particular Boneyard?

The Sin-Eater is going through a lot of effort to counteract some Apprentices and Disciples.

>>53109700
Its sleeper weakness that they cannot behold Truth, not mages downside.

>>53123445
That it fucks up your spells, and your Wisdom tanks from rampant causing of Quiescence makes it a Mage downside.

Even the most heartless Mage has to raise that casting spells around Sleepers is less than optimal.

god, I wish we had separate Mage threads so people could actually talk about any other fucking splat without the mage-fags popping in about how their supa-special archmage would beat them up.

>>53123378
Sin Eaters are likely to be able to switch between as many different boneyard types as a Mage has arcana (literally, there are 10 known keys), but short of mastery as in >>53123310 (albeit I don't think there actually is a death unmaking spell that could immediately take out a Sin Eater, given they fairly specifically can survive the state of being dead as their core means of tanking damage) is where they are actually able to achieve victory.

Any given Adept probably can counteract a substantial number of sin-eater abilities, but I'm just saying that Sin-eaters are no more locked into one power configuration than a Mage is, even minmaxed. I've seen a sin eater who was so focused on using boneyard that he entirely forgot he could turn trees into bloodthirsty soldiers who would seek out a particular target at any range, and also that he could reflexively kill anything smaller than Size 5 that he was aware of with no save.

>>53123514
Funny, because I'm fairly sure that it was somebody talking about Geist who said that a Sin-Eater could duke it out with a Mage. Magefags didn't start this one.

>>53123554
>albeit I don't think there actually is a death unmaking spell that could immediately take out a Sin Eater, given they fairly specifically can survive the state of being dead as their core means of tanking damage
Unmaking doesn't do damage. You're flat out deleted. It also can't be Withstood as an Exceptional Success.

>Any given Adept probably can counteract a substantial number of sin-eater abilities
You only need to be an Adept to troll a Boneyard, period. Mastery would be overkill.

But at least we are talking about Geist. So what do you do in sin-eater? What are the challenges, antagonists, politics?

Why are we pitting Sin-Eaters against Mages? One of the Arcana is dedicated to shitting on the dead.

>>53123629
Anon is arguing in favor of a highly specialized Boneyard against minimally leveled mages.

It really takes a lot of effort to combat mages.

>>53123621
As far as I know you deal with ghosts and other psycho Sin-Eaters and then shitpost about it on the Twilight Network.

>>53123649
>It really takes a lot of effort to combat mages.

Assuming they're competent, of course. Which will usually be the case with sufficiently powerful mages.

>>53123079
>originally an Ars Magica hack

Ars Magicka was designed by Mark Rein-Hagen. His first company was Lion Rampant and it failed.

Space Masters are the most dangerous of Masters.

>create sympathy
>target acquired
>finish him

>>53123514
As a mage fun i personaly prefer to read something about using/converting real occult stuff into mage games rather then testing archmage dicethrowing powers against totaly different games by idea and mood.
Like reading about some weird east european mad cannibal and converting his grim rituals into lefthand fate legacy.

>>53112913
>>53109324
Calling all WtA fags like me:
I think extra actions are busted as shit and I don't want them in my game
What else could Rage be doing? Is +1 die before splitting per spent point too weak?
I also would limit it to enhancing only actions you could take without bonus dice from Rage, so for example a Dex 1 Brawl 1 char can't roll 7 1- die attacks with Rage, he however could roll 2 attacks at 7 total dice

>>53123704
>Calling all WtA fags like me
Is that a declaration of war?

I thought we magefags ran you mutts out?

>>53123698
If you don't take Space as at least a tertiary Arcanum then you're an idiot.

>>53123580
It stemmed from someone asking whether there actually was anything that could beat a Mage. Now obviously someone super-strong with a shiv jumping out of a barrel can in the right circumstances since they're merely human if surprised, but you'd never realistically get that close to a Mage, since their detection suite is better than anyone, and they have access to divinations etc.

But I was saying that if I had to come up with any non-Mage who could fight a Mage at equivalent XP, it would be a Sin Eater. I have seen some fucking beastly Sin Eaters made at very low XP. I don't think they're nearly as effective overall, but when it comes to slinging raw destructive power and save or dies around, and at the sort of conceptual engagement ranges that Mages can manage, they're the only other supers that can play in the same ballpit.

Like, I'm not even convinced that Sin Eaters are *meant* to be able to be a meaningful threat to Mages, but I'm arguing that they can be. If you pick and choose, they have a library of bullshit that makes the first draft of Beast look well considered. They don't have nearly as much flexibility, but they do have the same quadratic scaling, probably stronger for the same abilities, up to the point that they start hitting the ceiling of their growth potential. It's the lack of flexibility that means that there are ways around them at all, but those counters in turn can be countered. It isn't a simple mage victory,

>>53123716
I like my bitches to keep their mouths shut while they take the knot.

>>53123724
>It isn't a simple mage victory
It really depends on how powerful the mages are, and what Arcana they're proficient in.

I would say Disciples and under would have a tricky time dealing with Beetlejuice.
A single dot in Death is enough to locate where the Sin-Eater's comatose body is within a Boneyard.

>>53123751
You know mages can do better knots with life, and life/spirit archmages can even create whole doggy tribes in their arcane dimensions just for the purpose of knot wielding.

>>53123773
And yet you keep coming back for the genuine article.

No but seriously setting this haterotica weirdass RP aside, extra actions are busted in your game too, though maube given what Awakened magic does that's not really a concern.

>>53123621
As the guy who got us here, jack shit. You just shitpost on the internet, eat ghosts, explore the underworld (for reasons??? literally because you are bored I guess) and act passive aggressive towards Sin Eaters.

They really fucked the dog when it comes to Sin Eaters having any sort of raison d'etre.

>>53123607
Forgive me for assuming 1e Mages when we are talking about a 1e book. Given the general trends for 2e, 2e Sin Eaters will probably be substantially stronger, but who could know whether they have any ability to resist such shit, we just don't know. Also, Empty Presence isn't effective in that scenario, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that there is something that could function as such.

File: Beetlejuice.jpg (77KB, 400x567px) Image search: [Google]

77KB, 400x567px

>>53123761
I always associated Beetlejuice with both Wraith and Geist.

He's just too fun of a movie, I guess.

>>53123809
>As the guy who got us here, jack shit

Bleh pity I kinda like the concept thou I only skimmed the book for cool powers for an npc in my vtr game

>>53123809
>2e Sin Eaters will probably be substantially stronger
They might actually be weaker, from what I've been hearing.
I believe they're trying to reconsider their positioning.

File: 1308628109956.jpg (62KB, 500x720px) Image search: [Google]

62KB, 500x720px

>>53123840
Don't get me wrong, the THEMES of Geist are great, I've even carried them over to a PC I'm playing in a crossover 2e game who fluffwise is a sort of pseudo-sin-eater made out of supernatural merits, all about taking a new lease on life and living it to the fullest now that you've realised death is just around the corner, letting the dead experience life and joy one last time before moving on etc.

They just don't really have anything that they *do* as such. I mean, maybe my standards are too high since I consider Vampires to be in the same boat. But unlike Vampires, inter-krewe politics is not heavily codified. There aren't any well established global factions of Sin Eaters, it's all local level in the form of Krewes. There are references to the possibility of making Krewes of Krewes that are occultically unified into some even greater mythology and a political entity the size of a typical consilium or whatever, but it's pretty rare and the only example is spread thin over a huge area and doesn't actually have any real goal. I mean, a Krewe of Sin eaters is a force to be fucking reckoned with though, to the point that there's nothing they would ever encounter, save for deep Underworld entities or another Krewe that could actually be a threat if they're all fully charged and in the same place.

By and large, Sin Eaters are way, WAY too combat powerful for the 'tasks' that seem to be intended for them, which is like, solving ghost problems and helping them move on. Ironically though, they are very short on hand comparatively for utility powers that could help them resolve ghost problems with any level of subtlety.

The ghost of a child wants you to break up her mother with the abusive stepdad that killed her, and you have no ability to talk to the mother any more effectively than a normie or whatever, you just have the ability to hurl the stepdad into the sun or mind control every single horse on the entire planet to seek him and smother him to death.

>>53123992
Yeah this is a bit weird. I wouldn't mind if they would cut a bit of combat powers in 2ed and give them more skills related to investigation and social interaction

>>53123862
>They might actually be weaker...

I mean, salty as this makes the power gamer in me, at least they will be addressing the concern I just raised about them being well uh... unsuited for their ostensible role in the cosmology.

The fact that their primary adversaries are ghosts, beings which they can literally devour whole as an instant action, or mind control en masse, kinda rankled me.

I'm not averse to Ghosts being things they can walk all over, since it's their thing, but they need more substantial adversaries.

>>53124092
In some ways it was amusing. I mean, they're basically lords of *death*, which gives them surprisingly little capacity to do much besides make things dead, or stave off death.

>>53123992
>control every single horse on the entire planet to seek him and smother him to death.

You can subject someone to death by horse in geist? Wat

>>53124203
Anon was exaggerating (a bit too much, I might add) on the horse and sun examples, but yes.

You can do the same in Mage and Changeling.

>>53124233
You don't really need to specify you can do something in Mage. I find it best to just assume they can do anything and hope to be pleasantly surprised if I am ever wrong.

Can mages see why kids love cinnamon toast crunch?

>>53124387
At this point I'd almost assume, going by the shit posting alone, caine wasn't cursed by god, but just one of Abel's drinking buddies

>>53124438
Some Mysteries just can't be solved, anon.

>>53124203
To clarify, a condition you can subject someone to is basically identical to that Mummy ability where every instance of an animal you specify will seek the target out over ENORMOUS distances to get close to them, and then possibly attack them in some relatively ineffectual manner.

Death by horse is indeed in the Geist library. Punching someone into the sun *is* an exaggeration, but Geists can do very strong punches, around 30 dice or so with enough plasm, but I've also done the same with enough XP and preptime in Changeling. A Mage might actually struggle to do the same raw damage, but they are perfectly capable of actually flinging someone into the sun rather than hitting them with enough damage dice that a generous ST would be tempted to refer to it as such.

>>53124545
>every instance of an animal you specify will seek the target out over ENORMOUS distances to get close to them

It's more so where the cursed individual is located, rather than every animal on the planet going after him/her.

>>53124545
Mages can dish out some of the most damage for a gameline, but it isn't their go-to. They have far worse alternatives to send your way.

Eventually damage is irrelevant, as Unmaking annihilates you in one go.

So... What properties of sunlight makes it deadly to vampires? Should mage prime prime platonic form something something sun into streetlight or just make ball of hydrogen=>helium plasma?

So is haunted house with pair of serial killer ghosts and their victim good challange for a sin-eater or do I need to ramp things up a bit

>>53124579
>Eventually damage is irrelevant

Well yeah, Mages and maybe Demons are the only people who can hit that point. Putting you inside a box that has no outside, to re-cite my favourite adept level instant win button, isn't something that any amount of conventional offense or defense deals with. It isn't quite so effective in 2e since Beasts and Demons and the like can all do some sort of 'teleport home' manuever if they are pushed far enough, but I suppose Beasts are also capable of surviving being unmade as well.

I'm not convinced withstand was the wisest resistance mechanic in the world for 2e Mage, if only because the Beasts that followed had to have truly ridiculous powers to be relevant in the face of the sheer Mage supremacy unleashed.

>>53124624
I believe changelings 2e also have "escape everything" ability.

>>53124610
>magefag
I'll humor you this time

It's nothing scientific. Sunlight hurts vampires for supernatural reasons: the light is everything that is pure and it scorches the sin that is the vampire

You can't replicate the same effects of sunlight over vampires artificially, it must come from supernatural powers

>>53124610
Mythical component that is why it hits your harder when your BP rises and humanity drops. 1BP/7h vamps suffers whooping 1l per 10 minutes while he will suffer the same amount of damage from fire no matter his BP/H. Plasma would probably count as normal fire

>>53124624
The only supernatural capable of surviving an Unmaking spell o' doom are mummies.

And of course Archmages.

>>53124610
>So... What properties of sunlight makes it deadly to vampires?

Direct rays from OUR sun are what causes vampires to burn and die. They don't die from moonlight or the light from other stars, unless they've got some weird additional flaw or weakness.

It's not the makeup of hydrogen/helium/plasma, it's basically a magical, unending curse that goes "This PARTICULAR sunlight will make you die if you stand in it for too long", probably because the sun is supposed to represent God's face which the vampires can't stand, or some shit like that.

>>53124610
The sunlight weakness in *CofD* at least is pretty mysterious in origin, the best guess is that it seems to relate to the purity that the sun's light represents.

Previously *and* currently, replicating true sunlight well enough to pop Vampires is Forces 5, but with the 2e abilities of Prime, I know it sounds tempting to assume platonics might be able to accomplish it. However, I would put it this way: Could you truly manifest a platonic sun that was so much smaller than the real sun?

>>53124622
A 0XP Sin Eater, yeah. If there's more than one Sin Eater or the Sin Eater isn't a pleb, the ghosts are at most toast.

>>53124636
Actually i want change properties of light from lightbulb to hurt vampire, not throwing plasmaballs at him. So question was what is more important heat of lightsource or symbolic meaning. From poster above i know answer.

Mages can still conjure/stransmute sunlight to harm vampires as of 2e.

You might need Prime though.

>>53124671
If I remember correct 3dot fireball of Prime from 1ed was specified to still deal bashing to vamps but that was one specific instance

>>53124651
I'm not saying they aren't effected, I'm saying Beasts can survive their human body being disintegrated completely any number of times, they just end up back in their Labyrinth and then get back out via whatever physical locations the Lair chambers were created from. They never die permanently unless they get killed from inside their own Lair.

>>53124707
It was not exactly "fire", but "celrstial fire" which is probably hot, white, firelooking thing but not fire.

>>53124707
>Still deal Bashing to Vampires
Which doesn't speak very highly for Prime's ability to burn vampires then, if it only deals bashing.

>>53124674
>>53124680
It's still Forces 5 just like in 1e. Higher than you would expect, but it's specifically listed under Create Forces. The actual nature of this process was explained in more detail (still not very much) in 1e, but suffice to say that there are details necessary to modulate light to the point that it is similar enough to true sunlight to kill vampires that someone who isn't a master of the forces arcanum cannot accomplish.

It's the sort of thing you would expect to see a Forces 4 Legacy-Only rote for, since it's it's something that seems entirely feasible at a lower arcanum level but simply isn't, by word of god.

>>53124760
If you are only using Forces, then it only requires four dots to change another force into sunlight capable of harming vampires.

Or even lower, if you use Prime to imbue it with the necessary meaning.

>>53124773
No like, I'm saying that even though Forces 4 is transform energy and you would think that this is all you should need, it is Forces 5. Like, word of god it is Forces 5. I can't fully explain WHY it is a Forces 5 process, it isn't internally consistent with what Mages seem able to do at lower levels of Forces, but it simply is Forces 5 anyway. This has always been, and still is, the case. It is directly stated to be the case.

As to whether you can use Prime to accomplish something similar, again, it kinda seems to be within the purview of Prime as described, but there is no example spell of Prime even remotely close to what you would need for this, and thus little in the way of precedent. PRESUMABLY at Prime 5 you can *make* meanings for physical objects and thus make an existing light count as sunlight, but there's not any actual example spell that would make it remotely fucking clear how that would work.

>>53124821
Citation?

>>53124840
1e Core Rulebook Page 174 (The most important reference), Page 176.
2e Core Rulebook Page 146.

This is not difficult stuff to find.

You can manipulate pre-existing sunlight (Which is still good since I think you can't kill Vampires with mirrored sunlight normally?), but you can't make non-sunlight count as sunlight. If 2e Mages had anywhere near the effective casting range of 1e Mages I would have suggested reaching into orbit and pulling beams of sunlight from the other side of the planet down to wherever you are as a way of getting true sunlight on demand. I suppose you could use portals or something.

>>53124893
Using space to open portal raining sun on vampire would be kinda cinematic thing to do. Also reminds me of a spell in Night Watch series that was used to kill vampires and other undead

>>53124893
>1e Core Rulebook Page 174 (The most important reference), Page 176.
Yeah, this is first edition. Much of what you could-do and could-not-do has been revamped as of 2e. It's entirely irrelevant.

>2e Core Rulebook Page 146
Nothing on the page is suggesting or even implying that Making is the sole Practice required to conjure sunlight. It doesn't even mention the Kindred at all.

>This is not difficult stuff to find.
Stop being so pompous, you dingleberry.

>>53124986

>>53123505
>>53109700
There's literally no problem that can't be solved by throwing more mana at it. That includes Paradox. Just get enough mana in one place and you're golden.

>>53109514
To be fair in the demons' case? Playing their cards right they can emulate what a mage can do.

>>53122788
Hello, back again.
>There is no way around Author Authority
Actually that's not true, her Author Authority does only apply in the Umineko multiverse.
Also why nobody talks about How she isn't the Absolute authority in her multiverse? She is just one of many Authors, and then there is the Creator. (most People mistook her to be the creator because of translation weirdness).
>There is somebody Able to stand against her?
Of course, plenty of beings of the same tiering, they usually have all the same abilities and "divine" authority, but a straight up fight Always comes up to be inconcludent with such beings, and that's why it's shit to talk about it.(If you don't want to use REAL omnipotent beings, but that's even more pointless)
Most of the time the potential of even an "omnipotent" in one setting can be contested if the power he has is only over a "mere" universe. Also another common mistake is to distinguish a character statement from an actual display of power, that kind of thing made the beyonder appear way more powerful than he actually was, For example.

Guys, please some help. I'm playing Mage the awakening, the first edition. I know there's Mortal Second Sight, Geist The Sin-Eaters, Hunter - The Vigil, Promethean The Created, Changeling The Lost, vampire requiem, werewolf the forsaken. There're any other handbook with race for this edition? I'm a bit confused about all the edition thing with the old, new and new new edition

>>53123693
And who designed 1e VtM you utter tard?

VtM was a thinly disguised attempt at converting Ars magica to a goth settings so he could fuck gothwhales..

>>53124610
It's pure magic, and the reason they aren't burned by moonlight( reflected sunlight) and starlight

>>53124652
Makes me wonder about how vampires get along in settings set off of earth or in space since earths sun is only present after so long