Why does GW keep retconning canon and using story "progression"

>>53107758
And an example before any fanboys call me an even bigger fanboy

>Fantasy, you had:
>Drachenfels, a dude the chaos gods were scared of
>Malal, a god who wanted to destroy the chaos gods
>Gods of Law, who were even matches/arch nemeses of the chaos gods
>Storm of Chaos, where the biggest chaos invasion ever was totally defeated

but GW retconned it into:
>Drachenfels entire backstory was gone and he was just some spirit, no chaos god intimidation
>Malal ceases to exist
>Gods of Law never mentioned again in GW works except for some prick saying they aren't real
>Storm of Chaos never happens, End Times happens instead, chaos wins easily and annihilates everyone
>GW makes both Fantasy and 40k endless cycles of chaos gods destroying reality for their own amusement and nothing can stop them ever because they're so tough and cool and evil and hey why are you leaving what do you mean we suck at writing wait no don't leave buy our books first

>>53107792
>>Drachenfels, a dude the chaos gods were scared of

Drachenfels said he was more evil, the Chaos Gods were never scared of him.

>>Malal, a god who wanted to destroy the chaos gods

The creator of Malal left and took the rights to Malal with him. Not that it matters, Malal was shitty and the Chaos Gods want to destroy each other anyway.

>>Gods of Law, who were even matches/arch nemeses of the chaos gods

This wasn't the case. Law was only considered one of the possible forms of Chaos.

>>Storm of Chaos, where the biggest chaos invasion ever was totally defeated

GW wanted to get rid of Fantasy. I'd also say the first war against Chaos was bigger.

You're just being a baby.

>>53107898
>never scared of him

He told them to give him troops or he'd fuck them up. They gave him troops.

>malal copyright

Yeah, true. It's not Workshop's fault that Malal had to go. He wasn't shitty though. He added an interesting dynamic back then.

>wasn't the case

Law and Ruin came out of the same primordial pool, forming the singular entity of Chaos/Uncertainty. Law gods fought the Ruin gods (back when the "gods of chaos" as we know them were almost always called "ruinous powers" instead)

>gw wanted to get rid of fantasy

Shame on them for it.

>just being a baby

Being a baby and getting angry at a company for constantly taking a fat steaming load over a world(s) you care about to give hardcore felatio to a single faction at the expense of all others are two different things.

>>53107792
i dont understand, are you implying that the original story was better? it isnt :/

>>53107951
old40k and oldfantasy are infinitely better than age of shitmar and the upcoming age of the emperor

They were incompetent jokes for 20 years and I guess they realised no one took the forces of chaos seriously. Chaos was only ever good in fantasy anyway.

>>53107937
>He told them to give him troops or he'd fuck them up. They gave him troops.

No, he had shrines to them and summoned daemons.

>He wasn't shitty though. He added an interesting dynamic back then.

No he wasn't. Chaos was already a super infighting faction. Malal didn't fit.

>Law and Ruin came out of the same primordial pool

All the Gods and Spirits of Fantasy came from the Realm of Chaos and didn't want to go back.
Chaos Gods stayed and were the most powerful. The Gods of Law were not presented as equals anymore than Sigmar or Taal.

>Shame on them for it.

They can only support a dead IP for so long.

>Being a baby and...

No, just being a baby.

>>53107953
i dont understand how you think that

>>53107758
Because it's more "audience-friendly"

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>>53107898
>Chaos Gods want to destroy each other anyway

No, they just compete with one another. Whenever one gets too powerful, the rest gang up on them and equal everything out. Not even Khorne is capable of destroying Slaanesh, no matter how much he tries. He will always hold back and let Slaanesh live.

Malal was against all of Chaos.

>GW wanted to get rid of Fantasy.

By retconning Storm of Chaos away and returning to status quo?

>>53109213
>No, they just compete with one another.

No, they seek to destroy each other, they just can't. Just like Malal couldn't.
Malal was absolutely useless trash and merely invented to be the patron of an Elricaboo anti-hero who lasted for all of three issues of a comic book.

>By retconning Storm of Chaos away

Yes

>and returning to status quo?

Age of Sigmar is status quo?

>>53109265
>No, they seek to destroy each other

[citation needed]

>Yes

How does it help get rid of Fantasy?

>Age of Sigmar is status quo?

Storm of Chaos wasn't retconned into AoS. Storm of Chaos happened in 6e, AoS came after 8e. So how was retconning SoC killing Fantasy, when it took two more editions of the game before AoS happened?

>>53109399
>[citation needed]

Pick any Chaos armybook.

>How does it help get rid of Fantasy?

By having the world destroyed.

>Storm of Chaos wasn't retconned into AoS. Storm of Chaos happened in 6e, AoS came after 8e. So how was retconning SoC killing Fantasy, when it took two more editions of the game before AoS happened?

Storm of Chaos wasn't retconned until they began laying the ground work for End Times and Age of Sigmar. Storm of Chaos was retconned so that they could get rid of Fantasy.

>>53107758
In what way are they evil Mary Sues?
Not that I disagree with you, but you need to elaborate. Mary Sue is one of the most abused terms this side of /pol/

If it pisses off 1d4channers and their outdated memes, then so be it

>>53109461
>Pick any Chaos armybook.

Then you shouldn't have any problems providing your evidence.

>By having the world destroyed.

Nothing was destroyed.

>Storm of Chaos wasn't retconned until they began laying the ground work for End Times and Age of Sigmar.

It was. They dialed to whole setting back and ignored anything that came of Storm of Chaos. Just like they did with Eye of Terror campaign, where they ignored it and returned the timeline so that the 13th Black Crusade is just starting at the very end of M41, but nothing more.

Storm of Chaos and Eye of Terror didn't lead to anything, they were just ignored.

>>53109614
>Then you shouldn't have any problems providing your evidence.

Sure, just pick up any Chaos armybook.

>Nothing was destroyed.

They destroyed the world.

>It was. They dialed to whole setting back and ignored anything that came of Storm of Chaos.

Nope, they made several post SoC additions to the fluf, RPG books, novels, remember the Nemesis Crown?
Storm of Chaos was not retconned, for the most part they just didn't readily exploit it.
It only began to get rectonned when they began laying down lore for the End Times.

>>53109664
>Sure, just pick up any Chaos armybook.

The "educate yourself" bit doesn't work.

>>53109882
But it does.
Please go actually read a Chaos book and you might learn something. If I just give you a sentence you won' take it to heart.

>>53107758
>>53107792
Storm of Chaos and the 13th Black Crusade were dumb. The entire point of both Fantasy and 40k is that all of humanity is teetering on the brink, and it completely undermines that to have them fuck up Chaos wholeheartedly.
It doesn't matter if it's Orks, Tyranids, or Necrons that do it, but the point is that humankind goes down.

>>53109925
Don't be a lazy faggot, you made the claim, you back it up. I'm not gonna start digging through all my Chaos books to find proof for you.

Or are you afraid what you claimed does not exist and you're full of shit?

>>53109925
ples gib setnce

>>53110061
>Don't be a lazy faggot, you made the claim, you back it up.

I have, go pick up a chaos armybook, it'll corroborate me. I've given you the source, it's up to you to seek it.

>Or are you afraid what you claimed does not exist and you're full of shit?

No, I know anyone who has actually read a Chaos armybook will know will know I'm right.
The number of Memelalfags isn't very great and everyone knows you and your hipster god are full of shit.

I find it funny that most posts complaining about Chaos either paints them as OP Mary Sues or a total joke, no in between.

>>53107758
40k just isn't Grimdark enough.

>>53110118
>I have, go pick up a chaos armybook, it'll corroborate me. I've given you the source, it's up to you to seek it.

Not him.

Faggot. I own every Chaos book since the creation of Warhammer. You know what they say?

WHFB Daemons of Chaos 7th ED says that the Chaos Gods hold a council to manage the Great Game because if one power manages to defeat all other powers then all of existence including them would be erased. They intentionally try not to win the game only to prolong it forever.

Then there is Tome of Blood which has the lore that says that Khorne via the Ebon Sword has the power to slay any of his brothers but he will never do so because the destruction of a Chaos God would lead to dire consequences that not even Tzeentch can predict.

Ergo. the Chaos God do not wish each others destruction because that would lead to their individual destruction. Ergo, you are a lying faggot.

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>>53108054
The change isnt the bad thing, if it was actually progression. That isnt what is happenning.

If you had a bracket for a sporting event, and it progressed towards an eventual grudge match to decide everything, march madness or whatever you want, You would get pretty pissed if they played a game, decided a victor, played the next bracket, and then decided to just nope! And revert back two games to decide the other team won. At the expense of not one round, but two or more. And two or more possible victors.

This back peddaling really gets me. If you want some faction to beat another then grudge match and have em fight again. Dont do this time travel bullshit. If you want a faction to gain power then maguffin them a power. Its not like it hasnt fucking happened before.

If you want a character to die, kill them. There are plenty of tropes to bring them back, HELL rowboat gurlyman was STABBED IN THE NECK WITH CHAOS POISON in the ultramarines novels with Uriel, but guess whos back?

This back to the future bullshit rewrite is lame and annoying. If the authors want to write about something that already happened, fuck off. Write what you want, but concrete what already exists, within reason.

Foe some reason GW is afraid that if two factions fight, and one wins, that the other is magically fucked beyond all repair. Thats not how it works, and even if it is it takes place in a GRIMDARK setting. Have the faction's older brother come kick the shit out of somebody.

That is my problem with GWs handling of their own fucking setting.

>>53110228
Oh anon, you clearly picked the wrong Chaos book, because that doesn't support the argument, so it's clearly wrong. Please try again, pick any Chaos book, other than the ones you already did, and you'll find the source. If not, um... Try again?

>>53110272
So you are trolling and have no argument.

Fuck sake, baiting and trolling in /tg/ really took a decline in quality.

>>53110228
>I own every Chaos book since the creation of Warhammer.

I very much doubt that. But if it's true, how about you open up the fourth edition Warhammer Armies Chaos book, turn to page six, paragraph three in the first column, sentence two and tell us all what it says.

>WHFB Daemons of Chaos 7th ED says that the Chaos Gods hold a council to manage the Great Game because if one power manages to defeat all other powers then all of existence including them would be erased. They intentionally try not to win the game only to prolong it forever.

What the Court of Covenant says is that it's good that no one god is powerful enough to beat another, because if that that true then he'd kill all his brothers and undo reality.

>Then there is Tome of Blood which has the lore that says that Khorne via the Ebon Sword has the power to slay any of his brothers

FFG isn't even canon.

>>53110272
>>53110291
You peanuts deserve one another.

>more evil than the chaos gods.
I always fucking hate this. Why the fuck should sentient concepts adhere to completely subjective moral codes? Chaos do what chaos do, cause thats how it be like it is.

>>53110377
>I very much doubt that. But if it's true, how about you open up the fourth edition Warhammer Armies Chaos book, turn to page six, paragraph three in the first column, sentence two and tell us all what it says.

Nothing which supports what you say.

>What the Court of Covenant says is that it's good that no one god is powerful enough to beat another, because if that that true then he'd kill all his brothers and undo reality.

Which the Court of the Covenant is there to prevent.

>FFG isn't even canon.

Where is proof for that, though?

>>53110528
>Nothing which supports what you say

I only asked you to tell us what it says.

>Which the Court of the Covenant is there to prevent.

The Court is there to prevent nothing, it's there to facillitate alliances. The Court fluff clearly states that if a God were powerful enough he'd beat his brothers and reality would come undone.

>Where is proof for that, though?

GW didn't write it.

>>53110636
>I only asked you to tell us what it says.

And I refused you the same way you did in this thread.

>The Court is there to prevent nothing, it's there to facillitate alliances.

Which prevents the game from ending and causing their combined destruction.

>GW didn't write it.

Licensed it and GW writers have input in the books. Present your proof from GW that says that FFG's book are not canon.

>>53110672
>And I refused you the same way you did in this thread.

No skin off my nose, I was merely giving you the opportunity to in some way prove the venerability of your collection.

>Which prevents the game from ending and causing their combined destruction.

It does help prevent the game from ending, but not because the Chaos Gods don't wish to destroy each other as was the original point. The fluff actually points out that they would totally destroy each other if they could, they just can't.

>Present your proof from GW that says that FFG's book are not canon.

ADB wrote an article some time ago, "Grimdark II: Loose Canon" I believe. In it he gives the official company line that only three factions are empowered to create canon, GW, BL and FW.

Now this article was before FFG even gave up the GW license, so attitudes will not have warmed since.

>>53110672
>>53110744
Just fuck already.

>>53110744
>No skin off my nose, I was merely giving you the opportunity to in some way prove the venerability of your collection.

"The Tree Damned Shades". There proven.

>they just can't

Can't in a way that spares them the aftermath you mean.

>ADB

That's not something from GW and even he says he wasn't sure how FFG fits in the canon but said that considering that FFG writers are all over GW coming and going he sides with it being canon.

>>53110809
The Tree of *

>>53110809
>"The Tree Damned Shades". There proven.

That's not what the fourth edition Warhammer Armies Chaos book, page six, paragraph three in the first column, sentence two says.

>Can't in a way that spares them the aftermath you mean.

No, that isn't mentioned at all. They just can't. Whether they even know about the aftermath or not is not stated in the Court fluff.

>That's not something from GW

It's from ADB, who's reporting what GW told him.

>even he says he wasn't sure how FFG fits in

He does, but he also gives us GW's stance on the matter, and that stance is FFG is not canon.

>>53110042
The "point" doesn't matter one iota. Just make a goddamn book if you're going to undermine the GAME.
Repeat after me:
MECHANICS AND FLUFF SHOULD GO HAND-IN-HAND.

>>53110042
>The entire point of both Fantasy and 40k is that all of humanity is teetering on the brink, and it completely undermines that to have them fuck up Chaos wholeheartedly.
uhm, no it wasn't? Maybe it was more like that in 40k, but Fantasy was nothing like that. In Fantasy Canon, the forces of Order had beaten the biggest Chaos Invasion since Aenarion just 200 years before the Storm of Chaos, and the Empire was doing fine.

Humanity was actually still an emergent force in WHFB, which made it kind of ironic when everyone prophezised the doom of the Elves when their own Realms fell at the exact same time, in the current continuity that is.

Overall I blame grimderp fags anf 40kids like you that GW couldn't let Archaon die the same way Asvar Kul died, despite him dying to the resilience and determination of the Mortal realms would have had an actual message.

I guess ending the world and showing that resistance against fate is futile, and all the coargeous individuals of the setting died in vain, while mary sues like Archaon just kinda have everything work out for them because they have an underwhelming sobstory.

>>53109664
btfo

>>53113376
>The "point" doesn't matter one iota. Just make a goddamn book if you're going to undermine the SALES.
>Repeat after me: MECHANICS AND FLUFF SHOULD SELL PLASTIC DOODS

>>53108013
>The Gods of Law were not presented as equals anymore than Sigmar or Taal.

No, the Gods of Law were the direct antithesis to the Gods of Ruin, or Chaos, because the Law ones forsook the title.

They were very much equals with the Chaos Gods, and perhaps even stronger. Tzeentch feared that Arianka, the chick, would possibly undo all of his plans and even destroy him, so he feigned an offer of peace in their eternal struggle, and being your typical good god, she took the bait and got imprisoned in a tomb. It says something that even Tzeentch couldn't destroy her.

Then you have Solkan, who was an even match for Khorne, only that he fought for revenge rather than death and war. He's also implied to have gotten tired of seeing mortals fall to Chaos and intervened to give Sigmar his strength and create a champion for their side, and needless to say, it worked.

Then the light guy who was implied to be WHF's Illuvatar but who no one understood at all, not even the Gods of Law, but was one who everyone stayed away from, including the Gods of Chaos.

And even your argument, if it were true, isn't that good, because Sigmar in both old and new canon IS a match for the Chaos Gods and is someone they view as a legitimate threat to their existence, so if the Gods of Law are like Sigmar, just multiplied, then yes, the Gods of Law are very much equals to the Gods of Chaos.

Do be aware I'm talking about old canon here. As far as I know, they're not canon anymore, though the Total War game mentions the Gods of Law at some point.

>>53115155
>And even your argument, if it were true, isn't that good, because Sigmar in both old and new canon IS a match for the Chaos Gods and is someone they view as a legitimate threat to their existence, so if the Gods of Law are like Sigmar, just multiplied, then yes, the Gods of Law are very much equals to the Gods of Chaos.

Not him but that's utterly nonsense. The Chaos Gods don't fear Sigmar in old or new lore. In fact, the Chaos Gods spared Sigmar's life and let him go when they could have killed him.

Also Be'lakor said Solkan was a lie. He doesn't exist.

Also another point. WHRPG 1st edition says that the Gods of Order and law were born from the Chaos Gods.

>>53115515
>The Chaos Gods don't fear Sigmar in old or new lore. In fact, the Chaos Gods spared Sigmar's life and let him go when they could have killed him.

Okay. Tzeentch tried to seal him away for the explicit reason that he feared Sigmar could lead an effort to destroy all of them because he actually wasn't afraid of Sigmar and was just sparing him.

>And the source cited is the author's ass.

>Also Be'lakor said Solkan was a lie. He doesn't exist.

Oh yeah, Be'lakor definitely wouldn't lie or anything. No, not a chance.

>WHRPG 1st edition says that the Gods of Order and law were born from the Chaos Gods.

They were born from the same essence the Chaos Gods were. Chaos as an entity in oldlore was neither good nor evil. It was the natural entropy that reality adheres to. It was primordial. From it was born the Gods of Ruin, the big ones we know of, who sought to accelerate the process of entropy for their own gain and to take dominion over life itself.

Also born was their antithesis, the Gods of Law, who also sought dominion over life itself, but who stood against disorder and entropy and sought to enforce stability and unity by any means necessary.

When the Warhammer World was created by the Old Ones and the Warp was opened, both the powers of Law and Ruin came out of it. Rather than stop it, the Old Ones shrugged and went off to try again, probably because frogpeople or Lovecraft beings are too lazy to swat the flies that Law/Chaos were in comparison to them.

Thus, you were left with the Gods of Chaos and the Gods of Law, both inhabiting the same space and constantly fighting one another over power over the world. Just like the Gods of Chaos weren't entirely malevolent, the Gods of Law weren't entirely benevolent, and definitely adhered to a more Lawful Neutral standpoint. They weren't so much concerned with everyone's wellbeing, they just hated Ruin and wanted to stop it. Chaos hated them in turn, and thus they fought each other to eternity.

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>>53115722
>Okay. Tzeentch tried to seal him away for the explicit reason that he feared Sigmar could lead an effort to destroy all of them because he actually wasn't afraid of Sigmar and was just sparing him.

I am talking about the 8th ED "Enemy Within". Picture related. The Chaos God did not view Sigmar as threat.

And we don't know why Tzeentch trapped Sigmar in the Winds of Heaven. It was never stated why.

>Oh yeah, Be'lakor definitely wouldn't lie or anything. No, not a chance.

He had to reason to lie to a man as a good as dead. He didn't even let him take his word for it. He threw him into the Warp to check for himself.

And that wall of text is just headcanon. The Gods or Order were fighting the Chaos Gods if the Chaos Gods destroyed the mortal realm, then the Law and Order Gods will be drawn back to the Chaos Gods from which they were born.

>>53115155
>They were very much equals with the Chaos Gods, and perhaps even stronger.

Not in the slightest. The Gods of Law only ever appeared a handful of times. In thise times they only ever interacted with the Chaos Gods once.

That one time was a Chaos God defeating Arianka and locking her in a chest.

>Do be aware I'm talking about old canon here.

Where are your sources?

>>53116357
no reason*

>>53107758
Chaos has been something of a joke in the past. They're turning them into the primary threat across the entire galaxy.

>>53115155
>They were very much equals with the Chaos Gods, and perhaps even stronger.

Lawfags, when will they learn?

>Many beings from the void chose to send a part of their substance to the World. Some were comparatively small and weak, while others were possessed of an almost incalculable power. Thus were born the gods of Law and the gods of Chaos and their demonic minions. The natural laws of the material universe affected their alien substance in many strange ways, giving them forms and powers which they had not possessed in their home dimension, and they found that they were able to hold sway over the inhabitants of the World, and to use them for the furtherance of their own unfathomable ambitions. There was a constant struggle between the followers of Law and those of Chaos. The Gods of Law were few and comparatively weak, but their unity made up for their lack of numbers.

>Seven thousand years later, the battle between Law and Chaos still rages across the face of the world, with most of its mortal inhabitants caught helplessly in the middle. The dimensional openings at the poles change constantly, shrinking with the ascension of Law, and growing as Chaos gains the upper hand. All the while, a constant stream of raw Chaos floods through from the void.

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>>53107758
Games Workshop is bad and is made up of second-generation fans who missed that 40K was supposed to be satire of the Thatcher admin and thought that the blue space fascists wearing dumb shoulderpads were actually good and cool people. They will not make good decisions ever because they don't get the franchises they have and will go for the memetic version of it they received when they got into it, and the whole pop-culture idea surrounding 40K is that Chaos is the only thing that wins in the end because everything's so fucking grimdark.

>>53116526

Your last greentext proves the point though. They were weaker so far as everything decays and naturally goes to disorder therefore Chaos would of course be more naturally powerful but Law was strongly unified and were still quite powerful, and also had very strong followers.

The battle between Law and Chaos continues as your quote says.

>Where are your sources?

1st-3rd ed of WFB and 1st ed of WFRP and if it's got any influence on canon TW:W also has Law gods, at least Illuminas.

>>53116357
>8th ed Enemy Within

This is the problem though and what fans don't like? You can't come into a place arguing about how NuLore sucks and then use NuLore as your source for why it doesn't. Even your passage says Sigmar was fierce in battle and was peerless in martial skill so I don't know what you're getting at. "Chaos got bored" is also a line that sums up a lot of grievances many fans have with End Times and AoS in general and why Chaos is seen as a factionwide Mary Sue. Once upon a time they were equaled by Gods of Order and could be fought and defeated and there were entities out there (Old Ones, possibly Drachen, Malal, Sigmar) that either posed significant danger to them or who were outright more powerful. That was gotten rid of so GW could say Chaos is unbeatable and only lose when they get bored, which is frankly incredibly absurd and a slap in the face of players and followers of OldeLore who enjoyed watching the struggle between both sides, now seeing it just be some dumb curbstomp by GW's factionwaifu out of complete nowhere.

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>>53116551
>remember picking up very old warhammer as wee lad
>remember loving it
>this is great i love each edition
>soc comes hey this is pretty good cool
>end times comes uh what are you doing gw
>aos comes
>what the fuck happened to the thing i grew up with

>>53117271
>Your last greentext proves the point though.

No it doesn't. It's merely the same reason Chaos always loses, infighting
You said Tzeentch feared Arianka and Solkan was a match for Khorne, that the Lawlets were equal or even stronger, but that was never the case.

>>53116551
>Games Workshop is bad and is made up of second-generation fans who missed that 40K was supposed to be satire

Of the Thatcher admin, and just in general too.

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>mfw gw and fans alike never give any love or attention to the horned rat

>>53117271
>You can't come into a place arguing about how NuLore sucks and then use NuLore as your source for why it doesn't.

You said old and new lore that they feared Sigmar.

>Even your passage says Sigmar was fierce in battle and was peerless in martial skill so I don't know what you're getting at.

If Sigmar was a threat, then they would have destroyed him then and there. Instead at the moment of their victory when they had mankind and Sigmar at their mercy, they let them go. You know why? Because the Old World, sigmar, everything is insignificant to the Chaos Gods.

> Once upon a time they were equaled by Gods of Order and could be fought and defeated

Fuck sake, they weren't equalled by anyone. You say old lore but the old lore says that the God of Order were wagging a losing battle against the more powerful Chaos Gods whose victory was certain.

STOP LYING.

>>53117313
>You said Tzeentch feared Arianka and Solkan was a match for Khorne, that the Lawlets were equal or even stronger, but that was never the case.

To be fair so very little was done with the Gods of Law for whatever reason so there's really not much to go on. All we know is there's a dude that is a sun and a chick who's in a coffin and a guy who is Dwarven grudges on steroids. They may or may not have been able to match the Chaos gods, we don't know, but it's something worth noting that the old books talk about how Order and Chaos gods were struggling with each other to control reality. If the Order gods weren't at least an even match for the Chaos gods then there wouldn't be any kind of struggle, vice versa

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>>53117338
>long ranting

t. raging chaos fanboy

>>53117374
I wrote less sentences than the other guy and wrote no walls of text full of disinfo crap. So where is the long rant? Getting tried of of the non-arguments of you morons.

>>53117361
>They may or may not have been able to match the Chaos gods

Except we know they were weaker and were on the losing side. My god how can someone be up his own ass in his bias this much.

>>53117404
>You know why? Because the Old World, sigmar, everything is insignificant to the Chaos Gods.

that's all we needed to read to know you're another chaos fanboy living in headcanon who hasn't grown out of the green day phase

>>53117361
>They may or may not have been able to match the Chaos gods, we don't know

Yes we do. We have a source that says the Law Gods were weak compared to the Chaos Gods. We have another that says Arianka was defeated by a Chaos God and put in a box.
We know they were not even popular Gods.

>If the Order gods weren't at least an even match for the Chaos gods then there wouldn't be any kind of struggle

Yes there would be, because a continual theme with Chaos is that it falls to infighting, Chaos is its own worst enemy. From birth to Age of Sigmar.

>>53117426
>>Seven thousand years later, the battle between Law and Chaos still rages across the face of the world, with most of its mortal inhabitants caught helplessly in the middle. The dimensional openings at the poles change constantly, shrinking with the ascension of Law, and growing as Chaos gains the upper hand.

Gee, it's almost like they were in continual war before the Bell-end Times and Smegmar. It's also almost like they weren't fighting a losing war but a mutual stalemate. It's almost like you're a delusional Chaos fanboy who's probably happy with the "Chaos wins, Everyone dies" mantra they're pushing.

Sorry mate, not everyone likes your faction.

>>53117437
Except it's stated that the Old World is just a world within a multiverse. The Old Ones used the Gateways to travel dimensions to get to this world.

It's confirmed in the Daemons of Chaos army books that the Chaos Gods are invading other worlds and realities. So tell me moron with zero arguments but a lot of ad homs, why should the Old World/Mallus be more important to the Chaos Gods than the countless worlds of the multiverse?

>>53117447
Arianka got trick'd by Tzzentch because her religious enforcement of discipline counteracted the corruption of Chaos. He didn't beat her, he lied to her and led her into a trap where she then got trapped, and then he threw the keys across the Void because he was worried Solkan, Arianka's lover, would come shove a lawbook attached to a jousting lance up his ass.

>>53117464
>Gee, it's almost like they were in continual war before the Bell-end Times and Smegmar.

The world was doomed long before End Times.

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>>53117464
>The physical and spiritual corruption of the races engineered by the Old Slann will ultimately destroy them. Even creatures created by the forces of Chaos are doomed to extinction. For, with Chaos' final triumph, all life will decay into a seething mass of protoplasm in which lost and screaming souls float helplessly, enduring the forms thrust upon them by the uncaring gods of Chaos. But the victory of Chaos, although certain, may be delayed - for Lawful and other non-Chaotic void creatures will strive to protect their own identities and ideals. With the victory of Chaos, they too will be swept back into the voids to rejoin the identities from which they were created as the gateways fell.

-WFRP 1st edition p. 268

Eat a dick or learn how to argue with facts on your side.

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>>53117488
We have been through this. Read my nonexistent lips. Solkan.Does.Not.Exist.

>>53117476
>Except it's stated that the Old World is just a world within a multiverse.

In the End Times it was and that's the point of this thread, that the End Times sucks because it made Chaos unbeatable.

In old lore, it's mentioned the Old Ones created the Warhammer world because the last one they made fell to powers of the Warp. The Old Ones were never themselves threatened by the Warp, they just didn't know how exactly to beat it, so they did what any ambiguously good-sided extradimensional travelers would do and made races to resist the Warp if it came to their world.

It's even directly stated, if you believe the Old Ones making everything wasn't just myth, that the Ogres were their greatest creation and could've defeated the forces of Chaos simply due to how uncorruptible they were, but the Warp arrived because the Old Ones accidentally fucked up and rather than stay and fight they just decided to leave the world to its own devices.

You should read about the Warhammer Fantasy world and its fluff outside of just the Chaos army books and supplements.

>>53117488
>Arianka got trick'd

Nope, it's said she was straight up defeated.

>>53117541
>In the End Times it was and that's the point of this thread, that the End Times sucks because it made Chaos unbeatable.

NO, IT WASN'T. "Hordes of Chaos" (6th ED) says that Khorne's roars echo through out the multiverse.

The 6th ED Lizardmen lore says the Old Ones used the Gateways to cross dimensions to get to this universe/world.

And the rest of your post is bullshit and the last line is previous. "Ignore the evidence that proves me wrong".

>>53117531
>hey guys this guy in the world with massive bias for chaos because he's one of them said that something didn't exist so hahahha take that lawfags how do you dispute that

I think I remember a Halfling in some obscure Fantasy book once saying that Halflings owned dragon pets. While there's proof of his claim, he said it, so therefore it must be true.

>>53117508
You do realize that passage is quoting a prophecy enscribed by followers of Chaos, right?

You do realize that that isn't factual guaranteed lore, right?

Holy fuck Chaosfags are dense. If a prophecy by Chaos or a follower of Chaos says something then it's apparently Word of God levels of canonical.

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>>53117582
what the fuck are you even arguing here

did you misquote greentext or something

>>53117584
*while there's no proof

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>>53107758
>>53107792
I agree completely with you, it seem just so pointless for them to jump through so many hops to make chaos this unstoppable power and then have to retcon so much of their lore.

>>53117584
>You do realize that passage is quoting a prophecy enscribed by followers of Chaos, right?

Nope, it isn't. It's just straight up lore. The picture might be but the green text is not.

Who are dense and stubborn are the morons who are given proofs but refuse them because they have a dumb bias.

>>53117597
Mister moron. The idiot said that the End Times was the lore that made WHFB in a multiverse.

Let me use small words.

This is WRONG. WHFB being part of a multiverse confirmed in earlier fluff such as Hordes of Chaos and the Liber Chaotica.

>>53117614
I want to know why they did it, that's what frustrates me the most, like WHY they felt the need to undo over 20 years of lore in these two huge universes just to make one particular group win, not even caring that it pissed off fans. They cite story progression but why does story progression mean Chaos wins? Why not progress the story by having the Empire win and Sigmar throw Chaos back into nothingness or have the Orcs invade and take over the world or have the Elves resurge and form an empire across the world or have the Old Ones return or something. Why is it every time story progression comes up it means Chaos has to win?

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>>53117650
The End Times made it lore that reality was in a cycle of creation and destruction by Chaos, which is probably the most retarded thing ever, and it also did this for 40k indirectly too.

Yes, there was a multiverse before it, but it was never stated that Chaos conquered it all. The most we got was that the Old Gods made a world and it got corrupted so they made a new one and fucked up and so it got corrupted too and they left because they couldn't be assed.

also
>chaos fanboy calling others biased
mfw

>>53117653
It's already proven in this thread that you guys don't read that much lore. Please stop.

>>53117673
>The End Times made it lore that reality was in a cycle of creation and destruction by Chaos

No, End Times made it canon that the there was a cyclical nature between the Elven Pantheon and the Chaos Gods.

>>53117677
Alternatively, the only books any of you chaosboys read is Chaos books and your lore comes only from them, so...

>>53117673
>Yes, there was a multiverse before it, but it was never stated that Chaos conquered it all.

That's totally irrelevant to what's being dicussed as is the rest of your post.

The point is we have always known from the oldest of lore that the WHFB world exists in a multiverse. This multiverse has countless worlds. The Chaos Gods are invading plenty of them. The Old World was one of the worlds getting invaded. So when I said the Old World was insignificant to the Chaos Gods it's true. It's a grain of sand in a desert. This somehow triggered a moron so I asked him why would the Chaos Gods view this world as more important and worthy of their time than the countless other worlds out there. He gave no answer but more ad homs.

>calling others biased

Bias is shown when refusal to accept evidence presents itself.

>>53117653
Chaos wins because it is both logical that they should do so given their blatant power and because they offer something after.
If Orcs killed everyone then you'd just have a a ruined planet filled with Orcs.
When Chaos kills everyone you get random magic going off and new possibilities arising.

>>53117730
Not like that's a valid point but the WHRPG book and the Lizardmen army books are not "Chaos books".

There is a dick somewhere that wants you to eat it, so....

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>>53117759
>it is logical

>>53117730
I read all the books, why don't you do the same?

>>53117773
Well it is. Immortal extra-dimensional energy beings are just higher tier in power than humans and halflings.

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>>53117584
"Something won by lies is worthless. I will give you truth"

-Be'lakor the Dark Master

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>ITT unmoving chaos fanboys and unmoving chaos haters/other fanboys yelling at each other impotently about the fluff of a game with mohawk dwarfs that began as a satire of 80s britain and an homage to tolkien and heavy metal and accomplishing nothing but getting mad at each other

>>53117792
In 40k he said that, yes, but 40k and Fantasy are different universes, and even things with the same names and ideas are often radically different.

>>53117792
belacuck posters never stop making me laugh

you need to stop before i go get my rock though

>>53117812
>ITP anti-Chaosfag masquerades as impartial and attempts to seize the high ground he after getting his rectum ravaged by pure lore.

>>53117857
>>>>>>>>pure lore

>>53117837
Not true. It's mentioned that the daemons are the very same beings in both universes.

>>53117812
>just remember im better than all of you because i hate everything

>>53117867
What sources do you want?

>>53117789
Which is why the Order Gods and the Elven Pantheon and the Gods of the Empire were evenly matched with Chaos prior to the End Times.

>“We must stand fast against the tide of horror washing against the shores of civilisation, for it is endless, implacable, and strives only for our extinction. It is not enough we hone our skills with swords and lances nor is it enough to hide behind the sorcerous power of the Magisters. Nay, to survive against these hordes, we must draw our faith from the gods themselves, we must honour them, worship them, and let them fill our hearts with their divine might. We cannot fail or falter, for know you that we, all of us, survive at their pleasure. Should they lift their sheltering hands, doom shall surely follow.”

If the benevolent Gods kept the Chaos Gods from destroying the world, then it isn't far fetched to say that the Chaos Gods were in fact not omnipotent, not guaranteed to win, and not unstoppable, no matter what prophecy you pull out or what you Belacucks say he said.

>>53117871
Some daemons are the same, but the gods themselves, the Old Ones, Chaos, and the Emperor are all very, very different than those in Fantasy. Fantasy also takes place in a fictional universe, while 40k takes place in our own, hence why "ancient powers" are mentioned like Britannia and somewhere called 'New York'.

>>53117950
>Which is why the Order Gods and the Elven Pantheon and the Gods of the Empire were evenly matched with Chaos prior to the End Times.

But they weren't. Chaos was going continually stronger. Incursions were becoming ever more frequent. It was very much a doomed world.

>>53117950
>Which is why the Order Gods and the Elven Pantheon and the Gods of the Empire were evenly matched with Chaos prior to the End Times.

They were not matched to the Chaos Gods and they were losing. We already established this. But keep throwing around your baseless headcanon around. It's funny.

>If the benevolent Gods kept the Chaos Gods from destroying the world

It isn't the efforts of the gods or the mortals, that kept Chaos from destroying the world. It was always Chaos turning upon itself at the final moment. Mortals and their gods are just leaves in the tornado that's the Great Game of Chaos.

>>53108013
>The Gods of Law were not presented as equals anymore than Sigmar or Taal
If anything the God's of Law were weaker, there were, IIRC only 3 of them ever named, Solkan was the most powerful and had a big cult of witchhunters and Inquisitors, but was only really popular in Tilea, Arianka was imprisoned in a crystal coffin by Skaven and the other one whose name escapes me was too hard for most mortals to comprehend, so didn't get much worship

>>53117977
Liber Chaotica had a fantasy scholar witnessing the events of 40K. Among the Khornate fanrasy weapons in the book can you guess what was found? A chainsword.

>>53117977
The Chaos Gods are the same, the daemons are the same. The Old Ones could very well be the same as they were travellers from another dimension.

>Fantasy also takes place in a fictional universe, while 40k takes place in our own

Why should that mean Chaos isn't the same considering it comes from it's own seperate universe and can travel to others?
Chaos fights across many dimensions.

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>>53118017
>Solkan was the most powerful

>mfw

Exist he does not!

>>53117991
>>53118001
Says a single CHAOS-WRITTEN PROPHECY at the beginning of A 1ST EDITION BOOK.

>>53118023
>>53118028

IIRC shortly before Storm of Chaos GW dropped the idea that 40k and Fantasy were actually connected, and much to the loathing of fans brought it back with the End Times.

Some retcons are good, some are not.

>>53118061
>belakuk detected

>>53117857
>>53117876

It is true though that it's beyond skubtastic for both sides. Go into the respective generals for SoC and ET/AoS. Bring up the other side and it gets bad reactions. Both groups are pretty hostile and snappy at each other though yes I am one of the anti-Chaosfags so suck a dick Chaos.

>>53118082
>Says a single CHAOS-WRITTEN PROPHECY at the beginning of A 1ST EDITION BOOK.

No, I can find more if you like.

>IIRC shortly before Storm of Chaos GW dropped the idea that 40k and Fantasy were actually connected

Nope. They confirmed the link post Storm of Chaos as well. I remember it well because it's when they did a simultenous realse for Daemons in Fantasy and 40k.

>>53118082
>Says a single CHAOS-WRITTEN PROPHECY at the beginning of A 1ST EDITION BOOK.

Page 200+ is the beginning? No, it wasn't a prophecy. It's was hard lore that was describing the relationship between the gods and the state of the world. Please no lie.

>IIRC

You recall incorrectly. The WD article about 7th ED daemon release says that daemons are the same no matter what universe they tread on.

>>53118108
>Nope. They confirmed the link post Storm of Chaos as well.

If this is actually true, then holy shit even Storm of Chaos wasn't safe from GW's balls-to-walls retardation and nonsensical writing. I get that fans can pretty much ignore or adhere to whatever they want if it's shit but hot damn I just want a GW-made setting with GW lore that isn't autistic and doesn't require denial of lore in order to be any good. SoC is still the closest at least.

>>53118122
It wasn't hard lore.

>>53118135
>If this is actually true, then holy shit even Storm of Chaos wasn't safe from GW's balls-to-walls retardation

Storm of Chaos never said they were different universes though. It had no reason to comment on 40k.

>>53118150
I mean that if it said they were the same then that's retarded. I like 40k and Fantasy both but I want to keep them as separate as possible. I wasn't aware that even back in the SoC days GW was pushing the bullshit narrative of a shared reality.

>>53118165
It's been shared since even before 40k became a thing. I think one of the random encounters in Warhammer Quest was a squad of Space Marines randomly teleporting in.

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>I see an old world beyond the next horizon – a world that likely never was, where sorcery blew in the very winds and a self-made god-king was all that stood against the Ruinous Powers.

>Mayhap I would find the answer there, if I could find it at all.

-Advent-Draigo (short story)

Then a few years later a giant Silver Knight appears in End Times Glottkin.

>C-chaos isn't multidimensional!

Y'all need to read some Moorcock.
GW basically just stole everything Chaos related from him in the beginning.
Maybe then you can understand Chaos a bit better.

>>53107758
Because chaos fanboys are now the main writers so of course that's what's going to happen.

Also CSM are the new cool thing so they're gonna suck the fanboys dicks so they'll keep coughing up money.

>>53118259
>chaos fanboys are now the main writers
>Stormcast Eternals
>Indomitus Marines

Chaos is just Worf.

Okay faggots, let's settle this.

>The entities that shifted part of their consciousness into the world were of many kinds and dispositions. Some were benign, others less so, and most were insane or mindless. But all were creatures of the void, all had their roots in the Chaos stuff that composed their own realms. As only part part of their being could enter into the world, some manifested themselves as true Chaotics, creatures of whim and change, whilst others entered as single- minded personalities encapsulating harmony and stasis - Lawful entities (Law being but one possibility amongst the multitudinous possibilities of Chaos). A batt;e began between the entities for domination of the world, and as the balance of power shifted from Chaos to Law, the polar warpgates shrank or grew, expanding with the fortunes of Chaos, and shrinking with the ascension of Law. All the while, the warpgates gave issue to a continuous stream of change and corruption, growing to a flood during the domination of Chaos.
[...]
>The Gods of Law came into existence at the same time as the Chaos Gods and are dedicated to their own ideals of permanence and stability. If they were to succeed in overthrowing the Chaos Gods and establishing their own rule over the Known World, all change and development would cease, and nothing would ever change. The Gods of Law are worshipped by a few individuals in the Old World; though their worship is not proscribed, it is not popular either. Most Old Worlders prefer their own, mostly Neutral, deities.

-Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, 1st Ed

>>53118438
tl;dr:

>Law Gods and the True Chaotics (chaos gods) are two possibilities of the mindless and primordial substance of Chaos
>they have been contesting the world since the Slann left it
>neither side is said to be stronger or weaker than the other
>if the Chaotics won nothing would be left to corrupt and they would turn on themselves and destroy themselves
>if Law won nothing would ever change and everything would stagnate

Everyone forgets that Warhammer began as both a satire of Britain and a piss-taker of D&D, while paying respect to Tolkien and glorifying the heavy punk culture of the late 80's UK. Law Gods and Chaos Gods were made as parodies of the D&D alignment system. The Chaos Gods are too selfish and That Guy-like, so even if they win they will fuck themselves over. If the Law Gods win they will basically end all life because they're too strict and unmoving and uncreative.

However, and I say this as impartially as I can, it gives both sides a shot at victory. There is /not/ any kind of dooming Chaos Victory foretold here. That didn't come until much later with GW changing old lore. If we are arguing that old lore is better, them this right here is objective fact. It isn't a fluff piece, it isn't from an army book, it is given as straight encyclopedic information from a book section of the authors themselves detailing their own world.

I hope that settles this argument that's been going on now for over ten years.

>>53118489
>neither side is said to be stronger or weaker than the other

See >>53117508 and >>53116526

Wow never I have seen someone this blind with bias as to ignore what's in front of him and makes stuff up that are not there.

>>53118489
>Law Gods and Chaos Gods were made as parodies of the D&D alignment system

What a pleb you are.
Law and Chaos come from Michael Moorcock's works.
In warhammer the Law gods were weaker, and the world was doomed.

>>53118530
>>53118542
>Slaves to Darkness - 1988
>Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 1st Edition - 1995 (final core)

As 1st Ed of WFRP gives an encyclopedic background to the world, it therefore overrode previous books in any contradictions in "official" Old Lore.

And before you say "Then the Gods of Law stopped existing too", no, because nothing came after their analysis in WFRP 1st Ed that explicitly called them noncanon until The End Times, and even then it was only vaguely implied that they weren't canon or said so by Bel, who had both no reason to lie and no reason to tell the truth.

You can call cuck and say whatever you want about it being wrong, but as far as Old Lore goes and sourcing goes, you are objectively wrong. Of course, as with all Warhammer lore, feel free to adhere to or believe what you want. I'm fine with that. However, if you are speaking in objective, all-encompassing terms of Old Lore prior End Times, then you are simply, factually wrong.

[sub]i can be autistic about lore details too[/sub]

>>53117508
that isn't in WFRP 1e, try again chaosfag

>>53118627
You went into a random direction. The point is that book you tried to use as evidence >>53118438 here has lore that contradicts your conclusions here >>53118489

The Gods of Order were weaker than the Chaos Gods and the world was going to certainly be consumed by Chaos.

>>53118627
Nothing in any law god fluff contradicts that they are weaker than Chaos though. Or says that Chaos won't win.

>>53118652
Yes, it is. Check the pages.

>>53118672
Except it doesn't, and nothing it says about the Gods of Law and the True Chaotics implies that either side is guaranteed a victory. At the very, very most it states that the Chaotics have more influence on the world because they have more followers due to the Gods of Law being less popular, but on a God-for-God basis they are never said to be anything but even. Slaves to Darkness, a Chaos supplement from '88, says that the Gods of Law were comparatively weaker but still stood balanced against them because of their strong unity, and even then that was surpassed in canonicity by the last publication of WFRP 1E, which was in the mid 90's.

>>53118694
Sure, but nothing says that the law gods will lose or that they were weaker, which conflicts with a later publication of WFRP's world guide. So yeah, I'll admit that nothing says the Gods of Law will win, but nothing says that they'll lose either. To say otherwise is just playing into the Chaos fandom and cyclical bias that it often has.

>>53118710
"But the victory of Chaos, although certain, may be delayed - for Lawful and other non-Chaotic void creatures will strive to protect their own identities and ideals"

"The Gods of Law were few and comparatively weak, but their unity made up for their lack of numbers"

Not only you are autistic, you are illiterate as well? Do not BREED.

>>53118710
>they are never said to be anything but even.
>>53118726
>Sure, but nothing says that the law gods will lose or that they were weaker

They are never said to be even either. Since Slaves to Darkness is not contradicted on this point it is not overridden.

>To say otherwise is just playing into the Chaos fandom and cyclical bias that it often has.

No, it's just stating the fluff to say Chaos would win.

>>53118747
>"The Gods of Law were few and comparatively weak, but their unity made up for their lack of numbers"

Slaves. To. Darkness. 19. 88. Are you dense or are you just hunting for (You)s?

Plus, the "victory of Chaos" does not refer to the Chaotic Gods. Indeed, Chaos itself is a mindless, non-sentient seething mass of raw energy. It represents natural decay and disorder. It has no sides, it has no morals, it is barely a living organism. What it does produce is raw warp material, and from that raw material the Gods of Law and the Chaotic Gods were born.

If Chaos wins, then that means that Tzeentch, Slaanesh, Nurgle, Khorne, Malal, and the other demigods and lesser gods will lose, just as Alluminas, Arianka, and Solkan will lose. The Chaotic Gods are NOT Chaos themselves. They too fight against the inevitable downfall by trying to master the powers of Chaos and the Warp, but they simply can't.

>>53118786
>If Chaos wins, then that means that Tzeentch, Slaanesh, Nurgle, Khorne, Malal, and the other demigods and lesser gods will lose, just as Alluminas, Arianka, and Solkan will lose.

No that's not true at all. It goes on to say how everyone else will be at the mercy of the Chaos Gods.

>>53118786
"For, with Chaos' final triumph, all life will decay into a seething mass of protoplasm in which lost and screaming souls float helplessly, enduring the forms thrust upon them by the uncaring gods of Chaos"

"With the victory of Chaos, they too will be swept back into the voids to rejoin the identities from which they were created as the gateways fell"

In today's thread we are teaching anon how to read.

No, you idiots, it's the Chaos Gods.

>>53118809
>>53118813
Look at the chaosfags quoting their self-felating prophecy from a book that lists an ambiguously canonical prophecy written by servants of Chaos in the fluff.

Look at them and laugh.

>>53118823
Nope, it's not a prophecy. It's just hard fact lore. It's not presented as in-verse belief.

>>53118823
We're talking about WHFRP 1e.
It's not about felating Chaos and it's no prophecy, it's an introduction to the world of warhammer.

>>53118840
>all this obvious bait

here's your last you, chaosfaggot

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Who actually copyrighted Malal?

>>53118860
No one actually knows.
But it's murky enough between GW and the creator of Malal that nobody touches him.

>>53118856
No arguments just butthurt. I love it. That line of text is in the same vein as this >>53118438.

It's just exposition about the setting and not some sort of prophecy.

Why does the ascendancy of Chaos grinds people's gears so much?

>>53118856
Little Lawlet running scared of the fluff?

>>53118880
>Why does the ascendancy of Chaos grinds people's gears so much?

Because it's not in the 1st edition book and you
>chaos is unstoppable and ascendant and will always win no matter what x3
people are insufferable and obnoxious.

>>53118860
His creator. I think.

Malal has no place in the setting anyways since Be'lakor took his place as the anti-Chaos Chaos dude.

>>53118890
>Because it's not in the 1st edition book and you

Actually, it's is.

So you went from saying it's a prophecy to it not existing? Hmm...seems like you are in shaky grounds.

>people are

right so you have an issue with them because of your bias.

>>53118890
>Because it's not in the 1st edition book and you

But it is. Go to page 268.

>people are insufferable and obnoxious.

We can just argue with conviction because we know we're right.

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>Chaos Cucks coming out to play

>>53117330

I know, anon, I'm here for you...

>>53118940
>Chaos stallions are right again!

ftfy

>>53118940
The other guy seems angry though. I can literally taste his tears from all the way here.

>>53117330
>>53118942
The fucker got ascended to being a God of the Prime Chaos Pantheon. What more do you want?

>>53118962
You're all fanboys at the end of the day.

>>53119117
Maybe, but I'd rather be a fan who was right than wrong.

>>53119165
Nobody's right or wrong.

>>53119176
Well you're wrong for saying that.
I've proven myself right.

>>53119193
No, all it is is a bunch of losers spewing fake canon while a bunch of losers spew whining and complaining about it.

>>53119210
But it's not fake, it's legitimate.

>>53119250
Get new bait.

>>53119264
Please explain how it is bait.

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>>53117653
You chave our just but it on money. While I don't know the stats, maybe Chaos models were or still are selling like shit so GW changed the lore to make them looking more appealing and attempt to ramp up sales.

>>53119344
>You could just put it on money
Fucking mobile

>>53119344
that would mean gw understands the link between good lore and sale of minis, which they obviously dont because aos is a thing

i actually think there are quotes from gw saying they dont understand why people care about the lore and that they are first and foremost a mini company

>>53117653
>>53119344
>>53119364
Chaos is the most normie-friendly faction (how many times have you heard 12 yo's online say "BLOOD FOR LE BLOOD GOD Xd"), so as dumb as it is it makes sense they'd turn them into mary sues and the poster child of Warhammer. It's who most people who don't know Warhammer know about, so GW made Warhammer all about them now in their effort to casualize the game to appeal to a broader (especially younger) audience.

>>53119439

This too. The management changes of the early 2000's left Games Workshop with a lot of employees who literally did not understand why fans liked the canon/lore/fluff and directly stated they didn't care about those fans or the fluff, but the mechanics and minis.

>>53119466
>Chaos
>poster child of Warhammer.

Forgetting Space Marines and Stormcast are we?
Chaos are just the bad guys who get beat up to make them seem powerful.

>>53117508
I'm going to take the obvious bait, as this has been posted before and I'm well aware of it.

This comes from an edition of a WFB Chaos Army codex. In every army book of WFB, you will find lore, passages, and quotes that glorify the faction the book entails. Except the Elves to some extent, because it talks about how they lost their glorious status. Still, it caters to the Elves.

This was never canon. This has appeared in subsequent army books in side panes and as quotations. The closest in-universe source is that it was either discovered by or inscribed by an Empire scholar who went insane studying the workings of Chaos and their cults.

It has never been referred to as factual canon. It never appears anywhere outside of a Chaos Army book (I'm still searching through my physical copies to see which one), it is never referenced or quoted by any leading individual or writer for Games Workshop, it is never referred to in any games, and it is never confirmed to be anything more than fluff in an army book, and every army book fluffs up their own action.

I really don't care much for these types of arguments, but I also don't like seeing obvious bait getting tossed it, since it's a pretty decent lore-fluff-world argument.

I'm not saying that the victory of Chaos doesn't happen, but it isn't guaranteed, it doesn't happen the way you say it does, that picture and passage don't mean what you think they mean, and unless you are ascribing Age of Sigmar canon into a thread about how bad Age of Sigmar is to some people, then you also are either intentionally baiting (most likely) or you are just really, really misunderstanding of the way old Warhammer lore works.

Then again none of it matters for shit. Fluff and canon have always come second to the tabletop. GW is moneyminded and fluff does not rake in cash.

t someone who owns a huge number of books from the past 20 years

>>53119874
Ahh, I found it.

It comes from a Black Library book, Darkness Rising. It is an ancient prophecy that Archaon discovered which led him to forsake the Empire and join the ranks of Chaos. I do know it appeared in a prior army book, but it did not, I repeat, not appear in WFRP in any amount. This has been a misquote since 2006-2007.

>>53119874
>>53119941
The green text passage he posted is what comes from WFRP.
The picture is from Realm of Chaos.

>>53120023
And according to Darkness Rising it is in fact a legend and prophecy discovered by Archaon. It never was hard lore.

>>53120040
Darkness Rising came much much later, so it was created as solid lore.

>>53119874
>>53119941
>>53120023
>>53120040
I do stand corrected that an excerpt of this appears in the WFRP1e World Guide. This was never mentioned again until one of the Chaos Army Books, where it was described as written by some great Chaos servant, and then Darkness Rising states that it was indeed an ancient Chaos prophecy uncovered by Archaon and among the main reasons he went full Chaos mode. That means that you're right, it appears in WFRP. You're exactly right.

But it isn't hard lore. That's made clear by Darkness Rising, which came almost a full decade later.

>>53119492
Yeah, Kirby was an asshat.
Good thing he got booted from the CEO's chair, then.

>>53120083
>But it isn't hard lore.

Well it is.
Sources before and after Darkness Rising have Chaos winning being an inevitability.
Even Darkness Rising doesn't dispute it just because Archaon finds a Prophecy about it.

>>53119941
>>53120023
>>53120040
>>53120067
>>53120083
This is where the argument lines gotta be drawn then.

In your idea of SoC-era Warhammer lore, whether or not the idea of a guaranteed Chaos victory is true or not depends on whether or not you believe that the prophecy of it is hard lore and out-of-universe (WFRP 1e) or just a belief written down by a Chaos cultist (Darkness Rising/Archaon). It's your call there.

That should be what's talked about, not all these ad homs and fanboy tribalism.

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>>53119518
Anon...

>>53110042

Nids are gonna eat everything anyway, and when we go, the Chaos gods die with us.

>>53120156
>In your idea of SoC-era Warhammer lore

It's not about particular era of lore.
Archaon finding a Doom Prophecy doesn't nullify that we're explicitly told that Chaos will win in sources beyond that prophecy.

>>53120153
It doesn't outright say the prophecy is wrong, but that doesn't mean it enforces that it's true.

It was mentioned twice I believe in small excerpts before Storm of Chaos, and I know a lot of players ignored it or didn't like it, so GW doubled back and in Darkness Rising it's said to be a foretelling by a Chaos cultist that may or may not come true.

The prophecy itself is irrelevant, as the whole story is about Archaon's former greatness, his fall into darkness and evil, his ascension as the Everchosen, and his total defeat during the Storm of Chaos. The story doesn't concern itself with legend or myth or prophecized events, it concerns itself with the fall of a man who could've been a great hero for the forces of good, but who turned to evil and was led into ruin. A nuanced and interesting story indeed, and it was that prophecy that drove Archaon to believe he could expedite the victory of Chaos and rule the world as their best dude.

His descent into misery and insanity, his crushing defeat in the invasion, and his retreat and the failure of Chaos in overwhelming the Old World, if anything, disproves the prophecy and shows just how misguided and sad it is that Archaon followed it so blindly to his own destruction, and now he's too far past the point of redemption to turn back.

Of course, it may play right into it, and maybe the invasion of Chaos was just delayed, not totally beaten. We were never told, and we never ended up knowing, because Storm of Chaos blinked out of existence and Archaon instead wins and gets his wish of being this incredibly powerful god-king at the helm of Chaos.

I don't get skubbed or angry over the retcon anymore, I just get a little sad. Archaon and the Storm of Chaos were such fantastic and nuanced stories, and all of it was done away with just to say "Ha ha, Chaos wins, suckers". That's what disappoints me the most.

But what do I know?

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>>53120215

Apparently in 40k they've retconned it so that the CGs don't need followers to survive and are therefore unkillable.

my fucking face when[/sub]

>>53120232
Name me sources other than WFRP 1e and Slaves To Darkness (which came long before Darkness Rising and its canon changes) that say it's anything other than a legend and is guaranteed to come true.

>>53120252
>It was mentioned twice I believe in

No, a mere two have been posted in this thread. I'm not going to bother to dig out more because I believe the point is well demonstrated. The only people who don't know it are people who just didn't bother to read the Chaos books.

Just because a cultist writes something doesn't make it unreliable. Chaos ending the world was something GW pushed from damn near the birth of the setting, and it is indeed how they chose to end the setting.

They actually kept their word on that.

>>53120308
How about the End Times? That recent enough for you, senpai?

>>53120349
>How about the End Times? That recent enough for you, senpai?

>>Wow I really don't like that Chaos wins and is unstoppable in the latest books and End Times, it's really stupid. I think it shouldn't have happened and I prefer oldcanon, what about you anons?
>>Chaos was supposed to win
>>Proof?
>>Read the End Times lol

>>53120382
Or WHFRP, or Realm of Chaos.
You can't just pick a date and time and ask for a source from then. Some people go with the older the canon the truer it is, some go for the newer the canon the truer it is. Chaos winning has both covered and you're no Goldilocks.

>>53120280
New anon joining in here-

Eh. I don't think it matters that much to 40k, considering that they've got, what, 3 inevitable, inescapable dooms looming over the setting?

There's Chaos's ascendancy, another anon in this thread mentioned the Tyranids, and since we're going by old lore in this thread, the C'tan's aims for omnicide.

Whereas in Fantasy, it was really only Chaos. You could make a case for the Undead, though they weren't really powerful enough to stop Chaos by themselves. They needed more troops and power (which was Vlad von Carstein's whole plan, if I remember right).

>>53120462
>only Chaos

Not necessarily There were actually several possible outcomes before End Times.

Chaos Ascendancy
Orc Ascendancy
Sigmar Returns (good ending)
Old Ones Return (good? ending)
Law Ascendancy (probably as bad as Chaos ending)
Skaven Takeover (Horned Rat gained power thru followers, and had more followers than any other god of the WF world)
Tomb Lords Return (worse than Chaos and Law probably)

>>53110118
>I've given you the source, it's up to you to seek it.

Not him but that's not how a debate works you gigantic fucking faggot.

>>53120532
>There were actually several possible outcomes before End Times.

Only in fanfiction.

>>53120588
Are you even trying anymore

>>53120614
Are you?
Can you provide a source for those "outcomes."
Any faction could theoretically take all the land, sure. But Chaos is always there, untouchable. So it's not really an outcome, it's the same terminus point of Chaos eventually rolling down and smashing everyone.

>>53120655
The Lizardmen had a prophecy of the Old Ones returning and fucking up Chaos' shit. Several books before and after mention the Old Ones returning and saving the world from Chaos.

Is it true because it's a prophecy, or is the only true prophecy in your pintpoint-narrow view of Warhammer lore the one where Chaos wins?

What about the prophecies of Chaos losing?

>>53120681
>The Lizardmen had a prophecy of the Old Ones returning and fucking up Chaos' shit. Several books before and after mention the Old Ones returning and saving the world from Chaos.

Post them.

>What about the prophecies of Chaos losing?

Post them.

Not that it matters, because Chaos winning wasn't even just a prophecy, it was a fact of the setting.

>>53120721
>Not that it matters, because Chaos winning wasn't even just a prophecy, it was a fact of the setting.

Prove it.

>>53120881
Okay read this anon's green text >>53117508

>>53120912
Darkness Rising confirms it's a prophecy and not a hard truth spoken by any of the books.

Any other sources?

>>53120924
Read the green text.

>>53120462
One of the things I like about 40k is that 'left unchecked, this threatening horde will dominate and destroy the universe' can apply to a lot of the factions - Tyrannids, Chaos, Orks, Necrons, Imperial Guard...

>>53107758
>Chaos blatant Evil Mary Sues
>Implying they are not

Name three good things the forces of Chaos have done for the Galaxy since the Heresy.

>>53120944
We already confirmed that the official lore timeline of SoC made that greentext into a prophecy, not fact.

>>53121122
No, the text in the picture was "made into a prophecy" the green text was not.

>>53120532
>>53120462 here again.
I think I'll respond to each of these individually.

>Orc Ascendancy
I don't really see the Orcs & Goblins taking over the world and beating back Chaos, they're too fractious. They're also uninterested in that - they just want to fight and fight, threats to the world be damned. Yes, they're powerful, but not on the level Chaos as a whole exerts.
>Sigmar returns
This one is a bit hazy. Sigmar is just one man. Yes, he's an extremely capable and powerful man, but he's one man nonetheless. It's the same reason I didn't mention Nagash when talking about the Undead earlier - he's powerful, but there's only so much that one guy can do when they're facing down a powerful group of adversaries (the same goes for Vlad).
>Old Ones Return
Genuinely didn't consider this. I find it highly unlikely that this would ever happen, although given time, I think they would manage to fight back Chaos through bullshit OP Slann-level magics. Again, however, unlikely to happen.
>Law Ascendancy
Likelier than the Old Ones returning, but still unlikely. It's kind of A Thing that in the Fantasy world, Chaos is more powerful than Law. I don't have the sources though, so take that with a grain of salt. You did nail it on it being just as bad as a Chaos ending - Law, as far as I know, has an endgame of "everything is the same forever".
>Skaven Takeover
Honestly, that's just part of a Chaos Ascendancy ending. Skaven are Children of Chaos - their victories further Chaos' goals (insofar as Chaos has goals).
>Tomb Lords Return
Part of an Undead ending, and not really that good, no. Thing is, the Tomb Kings never really cared about anything outside Nehekhara and Khemri - they just wanted to be left alone. Stealing their shit would get them to show up on your doorstep, yeah, but once they've exacted vengeance they'd up sticks and leave.

So there's my view. Also: >>53120588 please don't bait people or hijack others' conversations, it's not nice.

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Chaos winning was simply a matter of math.

>>53121608
>newfags who think fantasy is grimdark

>>53121253
I figure the Old Ones coming back is probably the most likely conclusion.

I tell Age of Smeg to fuck off, so I go by the older stuff. I think it'll go like this:
>Chaos overruns the Old World
>Sigmar returns and stems the tide, slowly pushed back because it's him vs. 4 (5 counting Malal, if he were to even help the others) gods at once
>On the brink of defeat the Slann return, slay the gods of Chaos, and forever bind the warp into itself

The Old Ones (in old lore) predate the Chaos gods by a wide margin. During their time, Chaos was still a mass of energy, but it's noted that there was some kind of "sinister intelligence" within it that sought to undermine the Old Ones' civilization once they started using the Warp. It wasn't strong enough to take down the Old Ones itself, so it instead corrupted their followers. The Old Ones figured out it was something in the Warp hindering them, and while they were strong enough to defeat it or seal the Warp for good (they're the ones who opened it to begin with), to do so would make them unable to travel across dimensions and manage their giant empire, so instead they tried creating life to resist the corruption of the Warp and fight it.

The WF world was their latest attempt and both their closest success and biggest failure. When the Warp gates opened, out poured tons of "raw Chaos energy" that flowed into the world and broke it. It then receded. The Old Ones then left the world. In their absence a number of intelligent entities arose from the cataclysmic outpouring of energy, the chief ones being entities we now call the gods of Chaos - Tzeech, Slaanesh, Nurgle, Khorne, Malal, and numerous daemons - and the gods of Law - Alluminas, Solkan, Arianka, and numerous 'good' daemons - and they became the enactors of all the conflict in the WF world.

It's never stated why the Old Ones left, only that they suddenly broke ties with their empire for unknown reasons, and with them gone Chaos seeped in.

>>53121871
Point is, I think they left for two reasons, and it wasn't to flee:
1. Breaking dependency on their empire, which was the only reason they couldn't close the Warp back. The gods of Chaos as we know them are only byproducts of what Chaos actually is. In a fight of power, the Old Ones would annihilate them, but the "sinister intelligence" behind the Warp is a much tougher foe and their rival. It may be the entity hinted to in older books as "The Great Undivided" or "Who Must Not Be Named", the basically-Satan of all existence. They need to close the Warp to stop him from destroying everything, and to do so is to render space travel impossible by their normal methods.
2. To that end, they're working on technology/magic/both to seal the Warp for good, having finally seen that it's just not worth it and that their creations can't resist its power forever.

Seeing their last creation so close to falling but impressed at the resilience of its people and Sigmar's mighty struggle, they sweep in and eradicate the gods of Chaos and their forces and drive them back into the Warp, before sealing it shut for good. Afterward they'll either rebuild the world and make a new one and everyone's happy.

WHF being so heavily inspired by Tolkien also supports this idea for me, because Tolkien's world is said to end when Morgoth returns from the Void (Warp) and destroys everything in the world and in Heaven, forcing Eru (God) to return to active intervention to fight him one last time, and though Morgoth is destroyed, so is the world, and Eru rebuilds it for the sake of his followers.

Replace Eru with Slann and Morgoth with Chaos and it's the same basic idea.

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>>53121871
>>53121941
I don't see that at all. As far as I'm aware of canon, the Old Ones left and that was it. They were gone, they left, Daddy's never coming back, etc.

It's part of the grimness and darkness of the setting, after all, and I don't imagine the makers of Warhammer wanted to go full Tolkien (or even if they knew that was part of it).

Plus, that's basically the backstory of AoS anyway, so pic related for me really.

>>53122111
Yeeeah funny enough my Old Ones ideas do sync up with AoS better than I thought.

I do like grimdark but WHF never was grimdark. It was grim and perilous, dark fantasy, but never near the level of 40k. It was just a dark fantasy that started out more as a funny parody than anything super serious. End Times's biggest mistake was turning the whole thing into a crushingly miserable and hopeless affair.

>>53122163
While you're right on Warhammer not being as dark as 40k, it was still pretty damn dark. The Old Ones leaving and never returning is just part of setting the tone.

Speaking of tone, I can't really comment on the End Times' tone. I never read a word of it.

>>53120655
still waiting for Ragnarork.

>>53121253
>So there's my view. Also: >>53120588 please don't bait people or hijack others' conversations, it's not nice.

Not him but nobody likes headcanon in a fluff about a setting's lore.

Only Chaos was written to win in WHFB. The other factions were just created as fodder for it.

If you like the idea of Chaos losing, then go to 40K and AoS where other factions are written to have a real chance of toppling Chaos rather than simply delaying its conquest.

>>53123045
You're really persistent, posting and samefagging all day just to bait people with the exact same bait.

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>>53122163
Nonsense. As bad as things are in 40K, there is hope. Chaos can be defeated. (See Girlyman's return, humanity's psychic ascendancy, Ynnead and the Aledari). There is no piece of lore in it that says that Chaos is going to win without a doubt.

WHFB started out with describing the world as doomed to death as the power of corruption and ruin would eventually overwhelm the world and all would be spiritual slaves to Chaos for all time. So there is no point in fighting at all but for delaying this a bit further along the line.

This is why 40K > WHFB. This is why WHFB is DEAD.

>End Times's biggest mistake was turning the whole thing into a crushingly miserable and hopeless affair.

End Times ended with a spark of new hope blooming into a new existence where the final defeat of Chaos is possible. AoS is ten times more hopeful than any Warhammer setting with the forces of Order, Death, and Destruction bringing the fight to Chaos's door and being a threat.

You should play AoS. I remember Flesh Eater Courts.

>>53123101
Actually, more than one anon.

1) You continuously use ad homs
2) You dismiss evidence that disproves you all the while not providing anything to back your arguments across an hour long thread
3)Anyone who disagrees with you is a samefag

Truly, you are a shameful person and a bad debater since you let your biases and not facts control you.

>>53123139
I recommend FEC*

>>53123166
Your only piece of evidence for Chaos being unbeatable is a single set of lines from WFRP 1st ed referencing a piece of lore later revealed to have only been a prophecy and not world fact in Darkness Rising. You're a Chaosfag, someone who sits there spamming the same quote and jerking off to how amazing your Mary Sue faction is without even using any sources. This isn't the End Times. This isn't Age of Sigmar. In Storm of Chaos lore, Chaos was in fact beatable, and nothing guaranteed their return. You are a fraud and an autistic yet persistent troll, nothing more. Go shit up some other thread if you're not going to contribute.

>>53123139
Except the world wasn't doomed to chaos.

Holy shit on a stick in hell, how dense can you people possibly be.

>>53123297
See the other guy's post>>53121180

This was addressed earlier in the thread and yet you continue to lie. This why you this can be considered a projection on your part

> You are a fraud and an autistic yet persistent troll, nothing more.

SoC only delayed the eventuality of Chaos's ascendancy the same with Warding and the Great War against Chaos. Ir didn't make Chaos magically beatable.

>>53123311
Except it was as stated in the WHrpg lore posted in the thread. Please try to keep up.

>>53123332
>>53123342

The lore you posted was changed later to only be a Chaos-created prophecy and not objective fact.

Let me repeat this slowly
In SoC lore
Darkness rising, Archaon book
said it was only a prophecy
and not guaranteed
it
was
changed
you have no argument
try again later

>>53121180
The entire thing is shown only as a prophecy in Darkness Rising, which overrode the lore of it being fact.

Do I need to take a picture of the page, because I have it right fucking here.

The entire thing, all of it, appears verbatim on a note written down supposedly by Archaon. It was written by a Chaos worshiper. It was written by Chaos. It was not written by any word of god on lore.

>>53123374
DA PICTURE AND NOT DA GREENTEXT.

One sentence man. How can it be hard to understand?

The prophecy was about the armies of Chaos sweeping the world clean in a great terrible army. The greentext was about the corruption of the mortal races that started when the gates fell causing the eventual destruction of the world.

>>53123400
And the lies continue. The letter takes most of its text from the goddamn picture, not the greentext.

The only thing it takes from the greentext is a single line describing the fate of the mortals after Chaos's victory. So verbatim by ass.

The greentext certainty about Chaos's victory is not in the letter.

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>>53123557
And here it is.

Be right back I need to get somethinf done.

>>53118061
Reminder that Be'lakor lies in Fantasy because its only canon he doesn't like in 40k.
Even in 40k the only reason its "canon" he never lies is because he said he never lies since he finds it boring, and there's no reason to believe that.

>>53123166
I do apologize for the ad homs honestly. I don't know why this subject is hot button for me.

>53107792
>Malal ceases to exist

Implying this wasnt the single best decision in all history of mankind.

That Shitty fanfic tier faggot was so embarassing.
The fact that people born after 2001 whine that it isnt a real thing anymore only emphasis the shit of that fanfic.

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>>53123734
Does this look like the face of somebody who would lie to you?

>>53121094

Beyond your comprehension!

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>>53123139

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>>53124408
ASININE MORTAL

>>53113742

Arrcheon's death would have been all the more hilarious, as it wasn't the defiant stand of the finest of Humanity that finally knocked him tot he floor, but a bash from an Orc. Archeon should have just been the next to fail and be spawned by his uncaring gods.

>>53123604
And even that whole book is written from the point of view of a suicidally depressed philosopher.

Seriously, nothing in solid objective canon states Chaos will win no matter what. The line in Fantasy RP 1e got retconned, it only appeared once after in a Chaos Army book, and the only other source that says Chaos will win is a lone man who wants to kill himself.

Ultimately, the world's going to end, not by Chaos but by either Sigmar crushing the skulls of the Chaotics or by the Old Ones returning and shitting on the Warp.

Grimdark belongs in 40k. Fuck your ET/AOS grimdark in Fantasy.

>>53121253

I dunno, I like the Idea of an Orc ascendancy involving Ulric's spirit merging with Grimgor, and the Orc then turning his band north, toward the lands of wind and winter, to conquer a new domain of eternal fightin' from the ruinous powers.

>>53113742
>>53124603
That was pretty funny honestly. I mean it was funny enough that this big bad Everchosen got slammed in nearly every single canon battle in the SoC and even at Middenheim as soon as he heard The Franz was coming he was ready to nope the fuck out, but in the end it wasn't humanity that undid him, it was his own Orc ally.

>>53113742
I really wanna know what the CG reaction would've been after SoC if it was continued. Back in the days when Chaos wasn't a faction of mary sues and that bullshit of 'they only lose when they get bored' didn't exist, they put their all into each failed invasion, and SoC was supposed to be their biggest and baddest effort, but it failed miserably and now not only did they have a very pissed off Emperor to deal with they also had the biggest Waaagh of the Old World's history ready to come krump'em.

In between freaking out and hitting the panic button, I imagine they'd at best be verbally lashing Archaon for his failure, or disavowing him, or killing him outright.

The invasion and Archaon's BBEG Alliance being disastrous failures that got slaughtered and turned on itself had to do some serious hindrance to Chaos morale and its already fragile unity.

Chaosfags saying they'll take over the world when they can't even agree on the most basic of shit without trying to kill each other lmao

>>53123429
There's a world of difference between saying
>The corruption of the imperfect creations of the Old Ones will eventually lead to their own demise.
(added note that even in DR it's said that the forces of order could indeed march into the Wastes and destroy everything of Chaos there, but ultimately they would just become the enemy they tried to stop, e.g. stare into the abyss)
and saying
>Chaos is unstoppable and the Chaos Gods will destroy everything no matter what.

This is why people bank on the return of the Old Ones. The Law Gods and the other deities of the Old World are capable of fighting and stalling the Ruinous Powers, maybe even defeating them outright with enough effort, but Chaos itself is separate from the Ruinous Powers. It and the Old Ones predate all of the gods of WHF world by a vast margin. When it comes down to it, the final battle isn't going to be decided by the "Good" Gods, because to Chaos they're insignificant pests, or the "Chaotic" Gods, because to the Old Ones they're insignificant pests.

It's going to come down to the Old Ones fighting the "malevolent intelligence" residing in the Warp, AKA He who must not be named or the Great Undivided. That's what'll decide the fate of pretty much everything.

>>53110941
>That's not what the fourth edition Warhammer Armies Chaos book, page six, paragraph three in the first column, sentence two says.
idc at all about this thread but is this true or not i'm dying to know

>>53124614
>The line in Fantasy RP 1e got retconned

No, it wasn't. You gotta prove that first.

>>53124722
>>The corruption of the imperfect creations of the Old Ones will eventually lead to their own demise.

It's the corruption of the mortal races that empowers Chaos to destroy them. It's a simple connection of the dots here. Their inability to rise above their base natures causes their destruction. Poetic. This is warhammer.

The rest of your post is your headcanon and wishful thinking which has no place in a discussion about the lore.

>>53124993
>Their inability to rise above their base natures

If they are incapable of rising above their base natures how did sigmar rise above his base nature?

your "connecting the dots" is biased headcanon

>>53120174
If it weren't for Harry getting an updated design and model 8-9 years ago, a lot of current players wouldn't even know about that art.

>>53125010
>If they are incapable of rising above their base natures how did sigmar rise above his base nature?

Did he rise above his own nature? I don't think so. Sigmar was a flawed man who often let his rage get the better of him. Men are incredibly flawed creatures partly because of the temptation of Chaos and partly to them refusing to learn from their mistakes. That was the lesson Nagash tried to teach Sigmar by showing him the future of his empire.

This goes tenfold for the Elder races, who should have known better, like the Dwarfs and Elves who allowed the corruption of Chaos to seep into their souls and exacerbate their pride and stubbornness to the point that they cut of their own beards and ears to spit the other side.

And i never headcanon.

>>53125066
spite*

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>>53107898
>gw destroys 30 years worth of lore, characters and locations for the sake of having a new game with copyrighted names
>you're being a baby!

>>53125082
>copyrighted names
Several of them them seem like they literally just went with the first clusterfuck of adjectives and adverbs they could think of. "Deathrattle" and "Aleguzzler Gargants" are probably the worst.

>>53123604
That's actually different from >>53117508
It doesn't even retcon that.

>>53123139
>Nonsense. As bad as things are in 40K, there is hope. Chaos can be defeated. (See Girlyman's return, humanity's psychic ascendancy, Ynnead and the Aledari). There is no piece of lore in it that says that Chaos is going to win without a doubt.
It actually was worse in 40k. Warp Gods existed because humanity and eldar existed. There was no destroying them without destroying both humanity and eldar. They were basically a shadow that species with psychic potential cast into Warp. You could fend them off, protect yourself with technology (somewhat), but as long as you exist they would exist too.

That's why Chaos war against Imperium was self-defeating. Every time it won it cut a part of itself making itself weaker. The moment gods would have destroyed Imperium they would have turned into pathetic and weak things.

>>53124650
Karl Franz was busy fighting Be'lakor while Archaon beat Valten and got beaten by Grimgor, who was not a Chaos ally by the way, orcs were neutral.

>>53125167

Tell me you just made that names up. Please.

I can't even

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>>53128254
Orcs fought under Archaon's banner. Many Orcs were not neutral in the Storm of Chaos.

>>53125296
This is why the Nids should have remained the greatest threat to Chaos. Nids can't be corrupted and the Hive Mind is too smart to fall for any of their tricks, so once they devour everything the Chaos Gods will be next. It'll be a very fitting scenario for Slaanesh especially, since when he was born millions of Eldar died suddenly and for a moment the Eldar Gods were significantly weakened, so he stepped in and devoured them with the exception of MOTHERFUCKIN BADASS Khaine.

With no one left in the galaxy to worship them the Warp Gods will be frail and weak and the Hive Mind will quietly laugh as his Nids devour them at last.

I'm not even a Nid fanboy desu I just know fluff and how it should've gone before all this Imperium torn apart crap.

>>53125066
>Sigmar was a flawed regular dude he wasnt special at all and he fell to chaos too!!
>>i never headcanon

>>53125250
Yeah it isn't, but it's basically the same thing rewritten and the book says it's prophecy that Archaon found and drove him crazy. It isn't fact in the lore no matter what you say or what straws you grasp at my man. You could definitely argue that the races of the world falling into their own corruption even if they took out the Chaos Gods will destroy them anyway, but this shit about the Chaos Gods themselves being unstoppable and mortals having no chance to fight them is retarded.

Plus you're -all- acting like books are flawless and have no contradictions or errors. If the victory of Chaos is inevitable because of WHFRP1e then how come later in the book it details the possibility of the Chaos Order victory where the world isn't destroyed and instead it's put into total stasis? If GW intended a Chaos victory to be the only outcome then why do they list other outcomes in the exact same book?

Checkmate

>>53119344
>british company
>only euros and dollars in his hands
i noticed it only now, this pic is retarded

>>53110061
>Don't be a lazy faggot, you made the claim, you back it up
>that way I can say your source doesn't count regardless of what it is because I don't have an actual argument but need to be right

>>53132584
>instead of finding evidence, I'll just strawman to save face

>>53128578
not that anon,but:
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Aleguzzler-Gargant

>>53132712
i could swear i saw that miniature already but the name doesn't ring any bell. mmmmm

>>53107758
I guess it makes up for them being god-awfully shit in the actual game, despite being the literal BBEG of 40k

>>53132143
>I'm not even a Nid fanboy desu I just know fluff and how it should've gone before all this Imperium torn apart crap.
Well there were also C'Tan who was hellbent on galactic domination and were using necrons to beat Chaos and take the galaxy. Now it kind of got down wit the shit.

Orks in theory too could defeat the gods by beating other species which will mean that Gork and Mork will be capable to deliver an epic ass whooping in Warp.

Imperium in theory too could stop the Warp at the cost of their current FTL capability by making blank genes dominant.

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>>53110809
>>53110744
>ADB wrote a
ADB got BTFO not long ago, since GW studio it's taking the reigns back to the lore control, since those BL guys where beggining to act like they owned the lore and where wrecking it.

ADB always writes mary sue shit and edgy shit. I mean he made the Black Templars be angry with the inquisition because they where killing the celestial lions and they ended up saving them.. rather than embrace their tragedy.

Then you have him literally copy the plot points of lord of the night - shove his edgelords as if they where always the big guys - and at the end the eldar plot that he copied from Lord the night book dont make fucking sense at all.

Always a waifu and always the same story structure.

>mUH Blud Ravens are NOT thousand sons autism.

give me a break and to think I used to like this guy with Cadian Blood.

>>53107792
yeah i think were one side is just sure to win and their enemies have no real weapons to actually cause them real harm is not interesting

this is what i don't like in fantasy universe: chaos is just outright stated to be the most powerful force and no one else can do anything about them. its just a matter of time till chaos gods win.

same in 40k.

i'd like that each side has a serious weakness and a real chance to be defeated for good.

>>53120532
tell me about "law ascendancy" please

>>53134878
Chaos had tons of weaknesses in older Fantasy and 40k lore. Only with End Times, Age of Sigmar, and Fall of Cadia/Gathering Storm are they suddenly invincible in most ways.

I just don't understand what the fuck happened to Fantasy.

I go away for one year and now the armies are all over the place without any rhyme or reason and the game is completely messed up.

>>53134986
all i can remember is loosing followers or the emotions feeding them cease to exist

i remember in 40k old necrons had a plan to "seal off" the warp from real space using special pylons.

what else there is?

>>53117977
>Fantasy also takes place in a fictional universe, while 40k takes place in our own,

Remember when 40k's universe was just inside of a bottle in some wizards' tower in fantasy?

Posting in a Carnac thread