/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

>>53050231

Masters aren't rare, are they?

>>53057631
There isn't a surplus but they aren't exactly uncommon either.

>>53057596
Still waiting for that Dad Space conversion.

On a serious note I would give Chronicles of Shadowrun a go

>>53057631
Mages are rare as hell, but they're also quite survivable.
So Masters are quite uncommon, but not rare within Mage society, but vanishingly rare outside of it.
Still, a world city might only have an odd two dozen Mages in it.

Also to get to the position of Mastery takes wisdom through experience, so you're unlikely to find one who doesn't know exactly how best to wield his favored Arcanum.

Still partying, not even bump limit can deter me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_Tj4bJ0VFw
Btw Might cocteau twins fit a changeling setting well?

>>53057631
DaveB once handed out an interesting statistical piece, including a population percentage based on Gnosis.
It was as follows.

Gnosis
>8 - 1%
>7 - 4%
>6 - 10%
>5 - 29%
>4 - 30%
>3 - 21%
>2 - 3%
>1 - 1%

Each Path also represents 18 - 22% of the total population as well. 1/5 effectively, as dictated perhaps by the bias of the Watchtowers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhGoZLudKyk

Oh lord could some fae bring me the fingers of carolyn

>>53057675
A vampire would only need to be exceeding 1800~ mph to dodge a bullet if they were standing still and doing some Matrix type shit as opposed to using the Initiative that Celerity gives them to just zip off before the gun is fired, and then be much harder to hit following that because guess what, they're moving as fast as a car and are considerably smaller.

That's my entire point.

>Changeling 20
>OPP still doesn't recognize that a modern sect of Nockers has to be out there building Buck Rogers-esque rocketships and rayguns and wearing silvery finned pajamas

>>53057773
You're retarded. Celerity is total Matrix bullet dodging. My vampire is the fucking Flash. Fuck off.

>>53057763
>Masters make up nearly half the Mage population.

Unmaking galore. Thanks DaveB

>>53057763
This would make sense IMHO. Compare to vampire - your average vamp would be ancillae or elder that got up from torpor some time ago. That would make them around 3-5 BP as this both gives you oomph and is manageable.

With mages I always imagined adepts were the backbone of that society

>>53057763
Those statistics were based on 1e Legacy factors, which were supported by statements that each Mage upon finishing their training was supposed to be able to join a Legacy.

Since minimum Legacy requirements have dropped to Gnosis 2, with people able to make substantive progress on learning the skills needed to join from Gnosis 1, I'd assume that the curve is going to be even more front heavy.

With probably like as much as 5% at Gnosis 1, with another 35% in Gnosis 2-3.

>>53057821
Dave should just conjure up some updated statistics to appease his loyal devotees.

>>53057887
Indeed. The meat I would assume would fall within Gnosis 1-4.
With Gnosis 5-6 for those powerful Mages who run the Convocations, and are likely the power players (if not leaders) of the Orders.

With Mages who hit 7+ pondering Archmastery and Ascension, and moving away from both Orders.

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So I got good answers last thread(thanks mate) but maybe there are some additional points to be made about that.

In short I'm going to use my occult detective-scientist vamp in WtF game but I wonder how much of WtF(with I don't know much about) is made up of combat and how much time investigation and discovery play in it

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>>53057887

DaveB is a cruel and fickle god.

He still hasn't released the Mage FAQ, to say nothing of finishing Signs of Sorcery. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for updated mage demographics.

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>>53057964
>Signs of Sorcery
>Mage FAQ
I'm all prettied up for the sweet release(s)

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FUCKING WOO
I got my vitamins a bit ahead of time. Can I have a woo? Actually I don't care. Now it's dancedancedance
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrMtGbFKFk8
Ima go and horse around, horse around with a couple of dewy blossoms. Horse around with horsegirls. They dress in black and have awesome hair.

>>53057961
The very point of WtF is "the wolf must hunt".
Sure you can be their lab-bitch, but every single Uratha gets special forms which help them hunt.
Regardless of what they want to specialsie in.
Even the "storyteller" auspice gets a power which lets them inspire their pack to greater feats of brutality.

You're bringing a nerd from a social maneuvring splat into a game about heavily armed spiritual border patrol.

>>53055339
There's a fair chance that they assumed that Changeling players wouldn't need any sidebars of that nature.

>>53058031
Oh I agree with that assesment but I'm also bringing in my pc like that to see if I can make out something interesting out of it. Otherwise I might just slap a khaibit together and go to town

>>53058031
>Sure you can be their lab-bitch, but every single Uratha gets special forms which help them hunt.

Is the whole "you must hunt every X period of time or you suffer penalties" still in Forsaken 2E?

What is the world ending event for each supernatural?

There's Gehenna, Apocalypse and...

>>53058745
Nephandi shenanigans.

>>53058745
Never being played in the case of changeling

Planning vampire the requiem game
>ventrue population banished to a countryside burb because malkavia
>eventually plan for players to uncover a plot to resurrect The Camarilla.

I got further plans but this is the base really. Rate me

>>53058834

Wraith*

FTFY

>>53058839
I understand those are ventrue in a single city? Or everywhere?

>eventually plan for players to uncover a plot to resurrect The Camarilla.

What have Romans ever do for us?

>>53058839
>plot to resurrect The Camarilla.

I never read Requiem for Rome. Was Requiem's Camarilla what we know from Masquerade only in Roman times or something else?

>>53058897
In name only. It was first large covenant of vampires but it was mostly tied to Roman Empire. Invictus if I remember correctly started as Senex-ruling body of Camarilla

>>53058880
Just the single city. The plot is made purely out of exile induced rage and malkavia based madness justifies it.

>>53059013
Hmm I see. I guess it's ok but how are covenants of your city handling sudden dumping of probably large part of their leadership?

>>53056207
When you use celerity to dodge bullets you aren't moving faster than a bullet, all you're doing is jerking your body out of the way in the instant before the trigger is pulled.

Do people do new WoD game mechanics with classic WoD lore?

>>53058897
If you want something like old Camarilla grab Danse Macabre book and use Invictus with Prima Invicta(global vampire conspiracy hiding behind it)

>>53059059
Based on sources I've read, and how 2E all but outright states malkavia can be contracted by vampires outside clan ventrue. It's an acceptable loss.

>>53059193
Should be fun. What are you planning for the camarilla plot?

>>53059226
Depends on how my players respond. I'm planning a lot of puppeteering to be going on in the background. Sorry about the vagueness i know at least one of my players browse this board so I'm worried about spoiling

>>53059289
I understand. One thing I would be worried about is a lot of plot going outside of pcs sight but outside of that concept s fine IMHO

>>53059089
It's been done. I don't think it's a great idea but whatever.

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>>53059089
Sure. It's what Translation Guide exists for. No idea how well it works with Requiem 2E, though.

>>53058003
WOO!
https://youtu.be/ySGSb3pCUEM

>>53059498
Ok you need to chill

>>53059503
He wanted a woo

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>>53057679
This

Was planning to do a dead space/VtM cross over.

Game would take place on the sprawl (titan station)

Starting generation would be 15 since its the future, the clans would be a little different (not sure how though)

Wouldn't go full necromorphs the first few games, just average camarilla stuff on a space station.

And then a few games later, release the hounds.

So would a vacuum cleaner work on a vampire in mist form? Could you just carry around a little dustbuster?

>>53057679
>Dad Space
Somewhere in this vast cosmos is a son! I will teach him to throw a football!

Not a vampire, but a mage. Far,far future. Earth forgotten and lost. Humanity reach immortality through clonning and mind transfer. Some thing mage related - watchtowers gone, no link to the supernal, all awakenings are basicaly launching soul through arcane powered "railgun" into the abyss. 99% its bring back monsters, 1% its a mage without path.
There is only one mage organization. Its goals basically survival of the magic and making new mages, since knowledge behind soulrails long gone.
Only people who never died(and thus using original, no cloned bodies) can awaken.
All who died and reborn are sleepwalkers.
Something make stars go supernova in systems where soul rails hidden.

>>53054543
Speaking of, can someone please tell me how the hell Gargoyles can be made in Modern Nights? I swear the books contradict themselves. Either they need a ritual, or it's a regular embrace like other vampires, or even breeding? One of the books mentioned breeding as if they can do that to create gargoyles. I am so confused now

>>53059616

>starting generation
>15

Are you for real?

That's literally worse than thinbloods.

>>53060736
There's a ritual. I don't know what it entails but creating a Gargoyle takes much more effort than an embrace.

Breeding?? I don't think the fuckers are particularly fertile

>>53060736
What was the date on the book? Revised to V20, Gargoyles embrace like any other vamp.

>>53060903
was thinking of rolling the generation thing a little back, make the real thin bloods the 16th 17th and 18th generation.

Cant really see any other solution.

Can a ghoul, gargoyle, thinblood or similar diablerize another vampire? What happens then?

>>53061030
How about Blood Potency from VtR? Hear me out. Play after Gehenna in with most vampires died out and only weakest ones survived by staying under the radar. Then after years of moping they pick up slack with their blood thickening and powers increasing.

Obviously Dead Space took place 500 years into the future so you would have former thin bloods as strong as methuselahs. Bah you could probably replace brother moons with former 13 gens going full antediluvian and trying to eat everything in their way.

Yay or nay?

>>53061184
I dont know, i usually shave away a ton of the weird meta plot stuff, Gehenna included.

I think im just gonna say that, hey just like were wrong about 13 being the last, 15th wasn't the last generation either, and it actually goes down to 17th.

16th gens would be locked at 2 discipline points and 17ths would only have 1.

Also i feel starting players at 15th gives them more reason to play the generation game, as every generation point gives some benefit apart from like 1 extra blood point.

Will also make diablerie all that more tempting.

>>53061134
No, yes, yes. Blood Hunt.

>>53059746
In oWoD, it might actually work. The discipline description says that a vampire might have to roll something to not be carried away by wind (I think it was Potence if they have it, can't remember now)

>>53060970
>>53060973
I swear either V20 or Dark Ages V20 had the word "breeding". That was the only clan that had that word which is why I got very confused.

But the books also mentioned the regular embrace as opposed to the ritual too. It's like there's at least 2 different ways to create a gargoyle

>>53061294
Assuming they don't get Blood Hunted what happens?

Also, what about a half vampire?

>>53061294
Unless the diablery victim was an especially unliked vampire, had a blood hunt put on them, or some other plot convenience. Otherwise if you commit diablery its best to skip town and head to another state

My scion is working towards getting 3 pieces of the Lance of Longinus.

What sort of stuff should it be able to do?

He's the son of the morningstar

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>>53061134
>Can a ghoul, gargoyle, thinblood or similar diablerize another vampire? What happens then?

Gargoyles and Thinbloods can diablerize vampires just fine. Ghouls can't.

As for Gargoyles and Thinbloods, diablerie for them is just like diablerie for other vampires. Heck, one of the reasons why thinbloods aren't trusted is because they're so weak that a lot of vamps figure "Yeah, if anyone's gonna be tempted to commit diablerie, it's gonna be THOSE guys, since they got nothin' to lose... better take 'em out now, just to be sure".

>>53060736
>Speaking of, can someone please tell me how the hell Gargoyles can be made in Modern Nights?

Gargoyles can be made through both ritual and embracing. But, due to the rules of the Camarilla, the Tremere don't practice that ritual anymore. Officially, at least, and if anyone got evidence of them doing it, there would be Chantries burning the same night.

But yeah, Gargoyles underwent a mutation in their blood. They used to be "sterile", like the Blood Brothers, but their blood (probably the Gangrel blood in the mix, to be specific) decided "FUCK THAT SHIT" and promptly made it possible for them to embrace. Gangrel blood's a lot like the blood in "The Thing", actually; it wants to survive and spread, and it will mutate and shift in order to ensure its continued existence.

Never heard about breeding, but I'd throw it to the wayside, that shit doesn't sound fun to incorporate.

>>53061030
>was thinking of rolling the generation thing a little back, make the real thin bloods the 16th 17th and 18th generation.

Fun fact, in the V20 lore (from the upcoming Beckett's Jyhad Diary), the 14th generation is starting to "stabilize" and stop being thinblooded, with some thinblooded starting to show signs of their clan weaknesses, just like how the 13th gen stopped being thinblooded after the Dark Ages and became a "regular" generation.

There's also a 16th Gen vampire in the book, with the hint that a lot more 16th Gens are coming.

>>53061413
>Also, what about a half vampire?

You mean a dhampir? Dhampirs are, at their core, just a "natural" Revenant (inbred ghoul) and thus still human. Humans can't diablerize, so unless the Dhampir was embraced, they wouldn't be able to diablerize.

>>53061413
If the victim was lower in gen, the diablerist gets one gen lower (might even be more if the different in generations is more than a few)

They will temporary gain some disciplines of the one they killed but might later spend xp to learn them permanently

And they might get possessed by the one they tried to eat. The best part

So if a werewolf figured out how to use a computer, could he use it to order used shoes off of craigs list?

I'm asking cause of reasons.

Living spell that autoremoves hubristic thoughts with Mind. Y/n?

Has the Technocracy/Traditions debate been settled?

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>>53062019

Magic isn't real, doofus.

>>53061897
You mean if a werewolf remembered a common skill he would definitely have before the First Change assuming he was from any first or second world country? Yes.

>>53062019
Yes. They should all be destroyed.

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>>53057285

Damn, this is me except I traded in my boots for New Balance years ago when I started working IT and now I just get baked instead of destroying my liver.

VtES is a great game regardless of theme I think, but being based around VtM doesn't seem to help its popularity. From my experience demoing, lorefags coming from playing the RPGs think its too complicated or not story focused enough, and casualfags aren't invested enough in the theme to hold their interest. It usually goes over best with people who like to play other cards games like Magic or Dominion.

Anyways, see you in Lackey, bro.

>>53058099
You can, just remember that it's always at some point going to end in fur and flying vital organs. Prepare yourself accordingly and make sure the fuzzies will put up with a lick in their midst, and there shouldn't be problems if the ST is smart.

Are all the lower depths horrible cancer universes or can some be sort of pleasant?

>>53063210
Ask your ST

>>53062865
The one thing I'm worried about is two guys are fresh WtA converts but that's it. Anyway I might be forced to pick up some better combat skills along the way

>>53063210
>>53063254
I'd say it's impossible to tell since it's a one way trip unless you're an archmage.

If a 'decent' lower depth exists they'd have no interest in invading our reality unlike their neighbors so the orders would have no knowledge of them.

>>53058091
Literally no one needs sidebars of that nature.

>>53058745
Armageddon for Demon.
Maelstrom for Wraith

>>53061546
Doesn't that entirely defeat the point of introducing the thinbloods, if you just keep introducing thinblooded generations and then stabilizing them?

>>53061413
They inevitably inherit some mannerisms or tastes of the diablerized guy or gal.

If the diablerized vampire was notably strong the guy who diablerized him might get possessed, like what happened to Tremere and Monty Coven.

>>53058745
It's called Eternal Winter for Changeling.

>>53064086
>Doesn't that entirely defeat the point of introducing the thinbloods, if you just keep introducing thinblooded generations and then stabilizing them?

Well, it's meant to be an effect of the blood growing more potent, which we've always known that blood can do. I mean, the 13th generation ended up stabilizing, so we already know its a thing in WoD.

But, the 16th Gen is notably weaker than even the 15th Gen, having a Discipline limit of two dots at max, the implication being that though blood stabilizes, vampires are *still* "breeding" too fast for the blood to catch up, meaning you've still got all the same problems as before.

Hey /CofD/, got a question about Werewolves for you.

So as far as I know Werewolves aren't actually immortal and can still die of old age. Is there anything in the game that could extend a werewolf's life indefinitely? Or make them fully immortal?

Like forming some kind of a spirit pact or eating other werewolves?

>>53064826
vampire blood

>>53064858
nope

>>53064882
drinking vampire blood lenghtens your life

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>>53064882

Yes.

>>53064550
Don't 16th gens also have no fangs and take lethal damage instead of agg from sunlight?

>>53064826
Sure. The most plausible method would be for the Werewolf to ascend to become a full spirit instead of only half-spirit. This would have a lot of downsides though.

>>53064826
Honestly, there's not much point. Incredibly few werewolves die of old age.

So bros

is V20 worth it? What has changed?

I'm asking as kind of an old player of revised.

>>53065108
This is for a generational game that takes place over centuries. So the idea is that the characters spend a lot of down-time invetween "adventures" just living it up. I was either gonna go with the Werewolf passing the torch to his descendants or figure out a way to be immortal

>>53065223
Then just handwave it away that he made a pact with a spirit.

>>53064921
Is there a number to that? Like 1 vitae = 1 year?

>>53065168
V20's pretty good. I never played Revised, but I'm told that V20 is basically a cleanup and smoothing out of Revised. Revised 2e, if you will.

>>53065073
>>53065277
What kind of spirit would make such a pact? And what would be the terms?
Like pledging your eternal servitude to a spirit of death or time or something?

>>53065223
The canon for my games is that werewolves with high primal urge (e.g. 6+) are like the Krogan from mass effect. Due to their regeneration they're theoretically immortal but they live such violent lives you'll rarely see one older than a century.

>>53065348
Neat

To you or anyone else, I was told that they Updated the setting. I am unsure what is meant bu this.

I am...interested, especially if the game itself is separate from metaplot, as I found the metaplot to be very constricting, while also at the same time almost unavoidable.

>>53064921
becoming a ghoul lengthens your life, you can only have one template, no ghoul werewolfs so fuck off n die of old age you shit dragging puppy lover

>>53064550
They still have fangs by default, but all thinbloods can take a flaw where they DON'T develop fangs. It's totally optional, though.

That said, 15th and 16th Gen vampires only take lethal damage from sunlight, yeah.

>>53065520
>I was told that they Updated the setting. I am unsure what is meant bu this.

They moved the metaplot forwards eeeeever so slightly so that it includes stuff that happened after 2004 (like the Financial Crisis of 2007-2008, which was revealed to actually have been an Anarch plot to destabilize the Camarilla's leaders, hold their old money hostage and make them become more lenient towards Anarch causes), but also made the setting metaplot-agnostic, meaning you can pick and choose what parts to include in your own stories.

For example, if you don't want the Ravnos clan to get almost completely eaten by their Antedeluvian in 1999, you can just rule that the Week of Nightmares didn't happen, or that it at least hasn't happened *yet*.

>>53065702

Ugh, first part of this post was actually meant to be directed here: >>53064992

>>53065608 Werewolves can be ghouls, but they have an allergic reaction to vitae, meaning they vomit it straight back up. This means that for a werewolf to be made a ghoul they need to be basically strapped down, unconscious or just get vitae injected directly into their veins.

Plus, werewolves can easily break even fully developed blood bonds with their gifts, if they so desire.

So a werewolf could basically only be ghouled if they *wanted* to be ghouled. So unless they're a Black Spiral Dancer, I don't see it happening anytime soon.

Do werewolves make good pets?

>>53065798
>where the fuck are BSD's in forsaken?

>>53065608
>>53065798
>Who is Ossian
>What is an Indipendent ghoul
You plebs need to read your lore
>>53065342
No, but basically it stops your aging process as long as you drink even a few drops every other month or so. Possibly the time between one drink and the other might be lenghtened depending on how much blood you drink but i'm not sure

>>53065929
>Who is Ossian
look we aint talking about your shitty werewolf the apoc, it had fucking Samuel Haight in it and so if you want a mongoloid vampire, werewolf, mage, ghoul, wraith ashtray you could but then you will catch aids and die.

Do any of you guys make Ghouls often in your games? How often is it for/because of freaky sex shit?

>>53065912
>Do werewolves make good pets?

Yes, but they make better throw rugs.

>>53065977
>Implying Ossian is WtA character
>Implying Samuel Haigh isn't a joke character

I know you're spiteful that you didn't think of that first, but vampiric blood has the same effects in WoD e CoD, so there is no reason for it not to work on a Werewolf

>>53066129
>prove it in text?

NO didnt think so.

>>53066201
What is with all the cite your sources fags lately? Or is it just one fag posting it a lot?

>>53066250
The most annoying part is they don't even take actual text quotes out of the book as evidence and think the devs explaining what their text meant is meaningless.

>>53066250
Whats with all the assholes who cant cite sources and spew vomit all over the thread?

>>53066320
They've gotten tired from dealing with Cainefags who think the Bible is a cannon WoD book.

>>53066320
Magefags specialize in citations. Would you rather discuss power wankings instead?

>>53066250
>>53066269
So wait is this cunt >>53066201
asking for text evidence? In a game where it's clearly specified that rules are just rules and it's up to the ST to decide to wing it or not?

ok then

Rules and description of ghouls and what effect the blood has on them: VtR Core book, p. 166, V20, p. 499

Notes on Indipendent Ghouls: V20: pg 496, but is also stated in VtR in the page i already provided that a thing exist even in CoD

About Samuel Haigh, go ask White Wolf or read the wiki, it's stated there

Need more, faggot?

>>53066357
Magefags know their shit. Yet vampfags are evangelical and refuse to acknowledge citations, period.

Because Caine is Jesus to them.

>>53066466
Samuel Haight was an office joke. A very funny office joke.

I'm not sure if he's even a hybrid template anymore, but he does exist as a werewolf in W20.
There is no mention of him being anything other than that as of right now.

>>53066466
>read it all, nowhere does it say werewolves can become ghouls. Need more citation

Do any of the various books ever comment on how vampire society shifts through the seasons as the nights get longer and shorter?

Let's compare different games in the same system

Average Mage vs average Solar Exalted
Archmage vs E6 Solar Exalted
Exarch vs E10 Solar w/ Sidereal Martial Arts

Discuss

>>53067453
You don't need to be an Ascendant Mage to kill a Solar of that caliber, only Transfiguration.

>>53067453
Which edition?
If 2e solars win all because lol paranoia combos + shaping defenses. 2e is boring and poorly put together
If 3e I'd give the edge to solars in everything but the exarch case, that would probably require multiple working in tandem. Besides siddie martial arts don't exist yet.
t. exaltedfag.

>>53067479
Solars can have perfect defenses vs Shaping at chargen, Shaping being defined as anything that changes the Solar physically or mentally.

>>53067453
>Exarch vs E10 Solar w/ Sidereal Martial Arts
Overkill in favor of the Exarch. It can quite literally send down an infinite amount of Ochemata.

It would be easier to use a single Gnosis 9-10 Archmaster instead. Transfiguration is also overkill though, so maybe just Gnosis 8.

>>53067495
Assume 2.5, it has comparable material to MtA to draw from.

>>53067498
Yeah, except that doesn't matter with Transfiguration. I suggest you read up on it.

The Solar is basically using a seven-dot Entities/Excisions spell, and is not as absolute as you think.

>>53067026
Maybe not. It's especially interesting in polar/antipolar regions IMO. You would literally have times of year where it's near perpetual night, and other times of year where it's near perpetual day.

>>53067510
Exalted perfect defenses literally allow them to "lolnope" ANYTHING thrown at them.

>>53067498
I've always looked at it like this.

By Exalted, do you mean Exalted 2e, or any other version of the Exalted rules?

If Exalted 2e, then yes, a Solar can win. Not guaranteed, but it's plausible.

If any other version of Exalted, then no, even an amped-up Solar won't be able to perfect defend literally forever.

>>53067498
Transfiguration overrides perfect defenses quite easily, by definition. It's nigh-omnipotence over the respective Arcanum.

Not something you can argue.

>>53067528
What book? My Magefu is weak.

>>53067528
No. The game explicitly says that when two powers that say they always work collide, defense wins 100% of the time no matter what. Yes this is exactly as stupid as it sounds, and is why the edition was more or less solved a few weeks after release.

>>53067555
Oh, and addendum? "Any other version" includes Exalted 2.5e.

>>53067547
There's literally a Practice for removing "lolnope"s

Not sure how the Solar is going to win this.

>>53067573
Transfiguration is also "do whatever the fuck you want"

Excisions is also enough to remove such defenses, by definition being what it is. You're basically invalidating it by arguing against this.

>>53067602
Then it really comes down to whether or not you wish to follow Exalted 2e's absolute primacy of the defender or Mage's anything goes with high enough levels of magic.

>>53067569
Imperial Mysteries. Excisions is enough to remove perfect defenses of any kind, with Entities being the opposite working.

Transfiguration is omnipotence of the Arcana, with Assumption being a perfect rendering of it, supposedly.

>>53067566
>Transfiguration overrides perfect defenses quite easily
Second edition core says flat out that if anything says it overcomes a perfect defense then it's wrong and the perfect defense still works. The mage could literally be fully omnipotent and the defense would still work.
>>53067583
Not under exalted metaphysics.
>>53067602
The book also explicitly states that any power that says it interferes with or alters exaltation fails automatically. Hell even if the void comes to encompass all of creation the book says those exaltation shards are still going to be around.

>>53067622
There's nothing absolute about it when the Imperial Practices are involved :^)

>>53067566
>>53067602
In Exalted, defense has the primacy, always. It could be actual omnipotence, nothing nigh about it, and perfect defenses will stop it, because that's the nature of the system. Sidie MA charms include an actual "I win" charm. They can literally choose to win.

>>53067629
>blatant exalted fag

>>53067453
Impossible. Oramous makes sure that anything that shouldn't be in creation doesn't get there.

>>53067639
Then it's clear which of the two you've picked.

>>53067629
Yeah, this. They were really thorough in Second Edition; it's why there was such a backlash against Zeal in the initial version of Dreams of the First Age.

>>53067652
Yes I already admitted this. I'm not saying exalted is the better game line, second ed is fucking awful and I hate it worse than oWoD which is saying something. And I hate it for this precise reason, the game invalidated all conflict by just handing players insta win buttons for everything.

Are we really arguing against omnipotence here?
Must also acknowledge that Excisions & Entities by definition fucks with the templates and capabilities of individuals. The Solar is going to need to attack first or he's toast against the wizard.

This reminds me of the previous 'oWoD Archmage vs The Unconquered Sun'
The Archmage won

>>53067648
>In Exalted, defense has the primacy, always

In *2e*, anyway.

>>53067623
Assumption is like becoming a walking pax arcana violation. You're essentially an ascended being in the tellurian. The sheer collateral damage you'd cause would mean you'd have to chill out in your chantry at all times or ascend.

Otherwise everyone would make it their personal business to get rid of you.

>>53067453
If the Archmage doesn't have Transfiguration, the Exalt wins.

Otherwise he fucking dies.

>>53067566
Transfiguration is literally 1 dot beneath Ascension. It also requires Quintessence.

It would beat an Exalted's perfect defence but also is unrealistic in most gameplay.

>>53067686
>Are we really arguing against omnipotence here?

Believe it or not, yeah. That's...just how that version of Exalted rolled. And what >>53067680 said about Ex2e being ridiculous and nigh-unplayable because of it.

3e's actually somewhat decent and fun, but the power curve isn't as steep as a result.

>>53067639
Transfiguration can be resisted with Stamina+Gnosis, and operates under the purviews of the ten Arcana. Nothing in the description suggests it can ignore perfect defenses, because perfect defenses don't require a roll.

>>53067720
You're not forced to Ascend once you reach Assumption. It's not a Pax violation unless you decide to make it so.

It's also nearly legendary, but entirely achievable.

>>53067725
Transfiguration only lasts for a time, but the effects it produces can be infinitely permanent.

>>53067728
You're a dumbass. If I want to remove your perfect defenses by using something explicitly capable of doing so, I am going to do it. This isn't an attack, it's the literal rewrite of how an ability works. It could even make the defense superior, somehow. That's how it runs, buddy.

>>53067725
>It would beat an Exalted's perfect defense
I have the book open right now, Imperial Mysteries page 39. I see nothing to suggest it can overcome literally infinite "lolnope" defense. Combine that with a Solar's "I can't be surprised, ever" charm, and I'm still curious what an Archmage is going to do. High end Mage gameplay is a challenge of creativity, high end Exalted gameplay is mote attrition, you beat someone by running them out of power before you.

>>53067513
2.5 is a smidgen better but
>Spell shattering palm

>>53067778
Doesn't need to. Transfiguration does whatever the fuck it wants.

>>53067777
>something explicitly capable of doing so
Except it's not. Do all magefag arguments require the other side to not own the books?

>>53067790
Nope, it doesn't. It's a functionally infinite effect from any Arcana, but infinite anything fails against Exalted perfect defense, that's the point.

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>>53067792

Excisions removes the capabilities of templates.
Entities can refine and add in capabilities.

>>53067807
Sorry, if I want to remove your perfect defense using Prime 9, I'm going to do so. :^)

How it works, friendo.

>>53067777
You're not listening. It doesn't matter if you have a power that says you take away someone's perfect defenses, the metaphysics of exalted say that that never ever happens no matter what. Literally no one, not the primordials, not the incarne, not the never born, no one can change the way exaltation works.
Of course it kind of highlights the reason the theoreticle is stupid in the first place. Are we talking creation and WoD smashed together? Because the supernal doesn't exist in creation, but essence doesn't exist in WoD (or at least not the same type). The games are built off of totally different principles.

I bet Goku could beat Marvel's The One Above All

Because surely omnipotence is beatable

derp bias derp

>>53067777
Exalted 2e defined an attack as anything that's intended to impose negative effects of any sort upon the traits of a character, including the removal or redefinition of said traits (this was a thing Fair Folk were known to be capable of). The defense would apply.

...Though even if it couldn't, a trick of Solar perfect defenses is, again, that they trump external inapplicability in most situations. The one situation they don't on their own is if the attack is a surprise attack, but there's a Charm that can make Solars impossible to surprise attack in any manner that can be comboed with a perfect defense anyway, so this isn't even a valid limitation.

Basically no, Exalted 2e's well of bullshit goes deeper than anything you can readily imagine.

>>53067810
Exalted powers can't be removed, that's explicitly one of their benefits.

>>53067822
Prove it can.

>>53067825
Removing perfect defense doesn't target the exalted in any defensible way. It rewrites reality so those defenses never existed.

Exalted fags are this retarded, huh?

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>trying to have a serious powerlevel discussion between two completely different systems, both of which are designed to be ridiculous

Oh shit niggers what are you doing?

>>53067875
Seems that way.

>>53067849
Transfiguration does whatever the fuck I want it to.
Are you autistic?

If you really want to feel better about yourself, you might as well say they both cancel each other out.

>>53067865
So, the Mage uses Transfiguration, the Exalt perfects, the Mage removes the perfect effect, then casts Transfiguration again, and the Exalt...uses the same perfect defense.

Excisions removes the capabilities of characters. It doesn't matter if you have perfect defense.

It gets fucking removed.

Did a pdf of Necropolis: Rio ever show up?

>>53067865
Again, it's irrelevant. The 2e book says any affect of any type always fails to a perfect defense. They literally wrote in the equivalent of a kid saying he has an everything proof shield and then covering his ears right in the core book and gave it to chargen characters.

>>53067886
It's the exact same d10 system, that's the point.

>>53067825
>Transfiguration (Any ••••• ••••)
>The archmaster gains complete control over anything under the Arcanum’s purview.

9 dots is basically equivalent to the Wish spell in D&D or the Plot Device effects in World of Darkness. It is not supposed to be used in normal game play but is supposed to be a plot device.

>>53067903
This isn't an attack. Defense doesn't apply. The wizard is rewriting or removing it, entirely.

Not sure what's so hard to understand here.

>>53067909
Exalted directly and flatly contradicts this statement.

>>53067895
And perfect defenses will automatically stop it, no matter how powerful, or the nature of the effect.

>>53067909
Doesn't work on Exalts. their powers can;t be removed.

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You '''''people''''' are scum

>>53067886
Yeah this is I think the crux of the issue. Magefags are used to being able to do anything they fucking want at the top end, Exaltedfags are used to literally the most abstract and impossible forms of metaphysical assault being able to be turned aside with a perfect, and you've got two clashing sets of metaphysics here. I point back to >>53067622.

>>53067886
The game is dead, no releases for a while now, people still want threads, gotta come up with something in the mean time.
I still don't see why we just don't stop making threads until the next major release/announcement.

>>53067942
>Doesn't work on Exalts. their powers can;t be removed.

Except Excisions works this way, sooooo.

We're having an unstoppable force meets and unmovable object debate here.

>>53067909
>Any use of Excision on an entity (rather than an object or location) is resisted.
I'd say Transfiguration could overcome perfect defense but Excision couldn't.

>>53067923
And how are you assuming that has any affect on Exalted charms, which are not under the purviews of any Arcana?

>>53067930
Exalted powers can't be removed, not sure what's so hard to understand here.

>>53067936
Likewise for Imperial Mysteries.

This 'debate' is dumber than the usual cross-splat white room situations.

>>53067957
>We're having an unstoppable force meets and unmovable object debate here.

Basically. And in Mage, the unstoppable force beats the immovable object. In Exalted 2e, the opposite is true. It's an unsolvable debate.

>>53067957
>Except Excisions works this way
Excisions requires powers to be under an Arcana's purview, Exalted charms are not.

>>53067913
>>53067957
Except you aren't doing anything to that exalt. It's not even an effect they feel. It's just how things always were, not for them, but literally all exalts.

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>>53067930
>>53067923
>>53067913
>>53067909
>>53067903
>>53067895
>ITT: Retards don't realize this is an Unstoppable Force vs Immovable Object debate

You can't solve this debate because it comes down to the Archmage having the power of "I effect you no matter what" and the Exalt having the power of "I cannot be effected no matter what"

If anything I'd err on the side of the Solar, purely because beings who can warp reality exist in his setting and explicitly fail to stop Perfect Defense, and because in Exalted 2e defenses ALWAYS take priority over offenses.

>>53067985
>Exalted charms are not.

I would disagree here. The Arcana represent all. That's how the Practices function, anon.

>>53067987
See >>53067985
Magefuckery doesn't apply to Exalts. Funny how weak Mages look when they have to fight fair.

>>53067923
>equivalent to the Wish spell in D&D
Just to clarify, D&D Wish still has some restrictions, "Plot Device" is one tier of bullshitery above that.

>>53067964
>not sure what's so hard to understand here.
They are applying Mage mechanics first and using it as a way to override it, despite Exalted flatly saying otherwise.
It's a power level argument better off in a 40k thread, so just let it go, man.

>>53067923
I'm well aware, I have imperial practices. I also played 2e for a while, and its a retarded mess of rules that was made by forcing books out on a deadline with no coordination between the mechanics writers. The result is stupid powers that broke the entire game and invalidated part of the setting from the word go.
>>53067987
It isn't even about the exalts. The exaltations are actual objects in 2e, and they have certain properties. And the books say that nothing, not even the people who created them, can change them at all. You could be flat omnipotent and you can't change them because that's how little thought the devs put into the line.

>>53067991
Except that you could just alter how essence works and ruin the exalt with out ever touching them or anything they control.

>>53067987
Except Exalted works on Gurren Lagann logic where nice precise ordered superpowers get hit over the head with Sun-fueled dick because MUH HEROIC WILLPOWER

>>53068002
I would argue they represent all in their universe, it's not hard to argue they have no power over something wholly alien.

>>53067991
I'd favor the Solar until Transfiguration is involved, honestly.

Not even perfect defense can protect against effective omnipotence.
The Archmage could even make a superior version of the Exalt's defense, actually.

>Solars can have perfect defenses vs Shaping at chargen,
Anyway back to the point at hand. Mages have a thousand different alternative ways to deal with an Exalted such as teleporting them into the Abyss.

>>53068022
And the Exalt uses Spell Shattering Palm and stops you from doing that.

>>53068030
>it's not hard to argue they have no power over something wholly alien.

Except it effects entirely alien concepts in Awakening as well, anon.

>>53068035
>The Archmage could even make a superior version of the Exalt's defense, actually.
One that wouldn't need to be fueled as well. The exalt can only defend so many times, the mage has no such limits.

>>53068022
>Except that you could just alter how essence works and ruin the exalt with out ever touching them or anything they control.

Essence is a trait. You're altering it in some fashion? That's an attack by Ex2 standards, and thus defendable.

>>53068045
An Exalt can use a charm that retroactively negates surprise and avoid it.

>>53068049
>Spell Shattering Palm
Sorry that takes essence which no longer exists.

>>53068035
>even make a superior version of the Exalt's defense
Hmm, didn't think of this.

I guess the Archmaster wins then.

>>53068045
In reality mages and exalts would be best buds, because exalts actually have a shot at taking back the supernal from the seers if given guidance from mages.

>>53068035
>>53068022
I'd only say as much if this was Ascension we were talking about.

By Ascension's logic, Exalted Charms would simply be a form of sorcery or static reality, and therefore the Archmage could change how they work.

The Supernal is explicitly the source code for the New World of Darkness, and thus its not nearly as universal. We'd have to mesh it with Exalted's metaphysical system, where being a golden douchebag lets you no sell things purely by virtue of being a golden douchebag.

>>53068054
>One that wouldn't need to be fueled as well. The exalt can only defend so many times, the mage has no such limits.

Which is why any other version of the game besides 2e absolutely results in a win for the Archmage. In those versions perfects are either less omnipotent (3e) or exactly as omnipotent but require even more resources that the Exalt can't possibly keep up long enough to defeat the archmage (1e, 2.5e).

>>53068075
Except the spell that would alter how essence works was never cast, because Spell Shattering Palm.

>>53068080
If Exalts exist, they would be represented as symbols in the Supernal.

If those symbols are altered in any way shape or form, even deleted, the defense is gone. Flat out.

>>53068054
It's possible to build an exalt that has infinite mote respiration.

>>53068089
>Which is why any other version of the game besides 2e absolutely results in a win for the Archmage
I'd still favor the Archmage even against a 2e Exalt, to be honest.

It doesn't matter how much defense you have, the Archmage improvises your demise.

>>53068104
And Exalts can stop that alteration from happening, and that also means taking power away from an Exalt, which is impossible by their very nature.

>>53068104
Not necessarily. This is a hypothetical crossover, neither metaphysic necessarily takes precedent.

This discussion cannot be resolved by recourse to either setting, because both setting's work by different rules.

Its like asking if Superman could beat up Gurren Lagann.

The Unconquered Sun has perfect invincibility.
Yet that didn't stop the OWoD Archmage from eternally imprisoning him in a realm of eternal agony.

Solar Exalts aren't the right characters to put up against beings as powerful as Archmages, whether it be new or old.

>>53068052
I would argue that the Exarch retcon of reality means nothing in CofD is capable of being wholly alien.

>>53068115
>It doesn't matter how much defense you have, the Archmage improvises your demise.

Except, again, by Exalted logic all of that counts as a defendable attack, if a particularly obliquely angled one.

>>53059498
>>53059503
right on pal. I just got back from my sisters girlfriend and her housemate. They wanted 2 things; speed and someone to show how to feel what heaven's good will feels like. We became like blood brothers without actually melding together. We tried to find the ways to best stimulate each other. I did my usual in terms of getting to know what they like and how their sensitivity lessens or builds around the body. We had a long time of no penetration or direct genital stimulation, but building the arousal with blood pressure manipulation and massages, and then just float in it. Near the end I gave them both a brainzap by continuous tremoring stimulation and hindering blood flow from the clitoris. Then fucked my sisters girl for my orgasm. I avoid multiple orgasms when on speed, but edging hasn't seemed to do damage. Basically we had tantric sex for ~7hours. With breaks for jogurt, fruit, hydration and cigarettes.
Btw I put this on while I started the stimultion for the brainzap.
https://youtu.be/ObDQtQM4Zr0?t=11m
I injected the speed, they drank with water.

>>53068134
The Supernal literally represents everything. That's how it works. it doesn't define all, but it is the source code of everything.

The material and the code can't exist without the other.

>>53068141
>The Unconquered Sun
>OWoD Archmage
Explain

To get into metaphysics of it, exalted charms are literally described as miracles. They make no sense and follow no rational or reason, they just work. Period.

>>53068141
That's because the oWoD Archmage is orders of magnitude more powerful then the nWoD Archmage, making that a pointless comparison.

The Archmage in nWoD has a concrete metaphysical system he draws his powers from, meaning there is no reason to assume it takes priority over Exalted metaphysical system.

The Ascension Archmage comes from a setting where tearing apart other people's metaphysical systems and taking priority over them is part of the game itself, to say nothing of the fact that he's just far stronger in general.

>>53068152
I might as well just remove it using Excisions. As it's not an attack.

:^)

>>53068141
Here's a fun thing to know about the Unconquered Sun.

He's...actually not as powerful as a theoretical E10 Solar Exalt. He's powerful as hell, but he's actually more limited than his champions in the end. He doesn't use Solar charms; he's a spirit. A big one, but still just a spirit.

>>53068164
The Supernal represents everything in the CofD universe, true. But an Exalt would not be from that universe in the first place.

to get into metaphysics of it, supernal magic are literally described as retroactive sweeps. They make no sense and follow no rational or reason, they just work. Period.

>>53068189
Except you can't, because Exalt powers can't be removed.

Solar Exalts can't beat omnipotence.

So it really depends on how powerful the Archmage is. Anything under nine dots is eligible to be beaten.

>>53068194
Magnanimous Unbound Sun makes up for a lot of that.

>>53068214
But that's wrong. Those retroactive sweeps come from dicking around with the platonic forms of various concepts. They follow a strict set of rules and one can even predict what will happen if you spend long enough studying.

>>53068220
Nah, they totally can by definition of how Excisions works. :^)

>>53068214
Which is why this is just a UF/IO debate that can't be solved rationally.

Though honestly I think this reflects well on the magefags. The worst they can really get is a stalemate.

>>53068233
Sure they can.

>>53068233
>Solar Exalts can't beat omnipotence.
As written in 2e they explicitly can. Because the book says that anything that says it beats them doesn't actually beat them and to ignore that.

>>53068246
>But that's wrong
It's really not. The Supernal is the definition of 'everything goes'.

Though this only applies when you reach Archmastery. Fucking with symbols could turn the world into an anime version of itself.

>>53068247
I read that spell 3 times....no, it doesn't work that way.

>>53068272
>Fucking with symbols could turn the world into an anime version of itself.

BRB building archmaster

An archmage could just make himself an exalt but with extra bonus powers and unlimited essence. So the question is could an exalt beat a better exalt with a better template.

>>53068266
Sorry. I'm omnipotent. I will automatically make a counter ability because I'm omnipotent.

>>53068247
And yet they can't be definition of how Exalted works, which is why this whole discussion is stupid. It is entirely a case of pitting an Unstoppable Force against an Immovable Object, using games that have different contrasting metaphysical systems and themes, and trying to pretend one takes priority over the other.

Which really decides the entire debate. If Supernal magic counts as an attack even if used retroactively [which Exalted says it does] then Perfect Defenses work and Spell-Palm can no sell the magic no matter how stupidly large it is.

If the Supernal is taken as the source code of CREATION in addition to just the nWoD then through manipulation of the platonic forms of Solar-ism the Archmage could change any of the rules of Exalted he wants.

Note the thematic also comes into play here. Mage is a game about using mystery and knowledge to control reality, so if we go with its themes that technique should work. But Exalted is a setting where "Screw the rules I'm a Hero!" applies instead, and defying logic, as in literally doing the illogical because you're too stubborn or willful to do lose, is an INHERENT PART OF THE SETTING.

>>53068276
I don't think you actually read it.

Jesus, what the fuck happened to this thread.
Magefags come out in force to try and apply their mechanics to an entirely different universe which runs on the principles "lol fag idk, it just works"?

>>53068284
And that counter doesn't work. Why doesn't it work? Cause the devs said so. Yes this is dumb. Yes it's literally "No you didn't win" Yet it is explicitly how Exalted works. No matter what powers you have you can't beat PD's and if you do you aren't playing Exalted anymore.

>>53068299
You're pretty much stating nobody wins this.

In which case the Archmage still wins because he will just change the meaning of "lose" and "win".

>>53068307
Something stupid, but goddamnit I'm entertained.

>>53068315
Nope. Sorry. Omnipotence is omnipotence. I win.

That's how omnipotence works. I can do whatever the fuck I want.

>>53068316
>Yukari Yakumo is an Archmage

I fucking knew it.

>Powerful beings in WoD and Exalted both exist with the sole purpose of preventing different universes from colliding
>Underlying nature of what reality is differs completely in both.
Realistically what happens is the maidens read samsara and see that this isn't supposed to happen and the seers/oracles agree and they kick the universes back apart.

>>53068068
Okay? An archmage can travel back in time to before the Solar Exalted and then kill him.

>>53068315
Omnipotence? Ok. I now make my attacks perfectly immune to perfect defenses.

>>53068333
Perfect defenses are themselves omnipotent.

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Exalted fags don't know the definition of Omnipotence.

Not even magefags are this stupid, and they're the lords of autism.

>>53068301
I did, it requires the affected power to fall under the purview of an Arcana. Exalted charms do not.

>>53068333
>That's how omnipotence works.
Not in exalted it doesn't.
>>53068349
It doesn't work because the devs said so.

>>53068356
Sure buddy.

Can Caine defeat a Solar Exalted?

>>53068367
>Exalted charms do not.

citation pls

>>53068361
Exaltedfags just have a toolkit that allows one to meet omnipotence with omnipotence of their own, if a more task-focused form of it.

>>53068361
Exalted charms don't function on actual sane human logic and so the devs can hand wave away things like beating omnipotence even if that doesn't make any sense
>>53068387
What? Yes. Easily. There are plenty of solars who suck shit at combat.

>>53068368
So Omnipotents are weaker in Exalted? Great, I am now even more powerful because I'm an Omnipotent from another verse.

Can a exalted become a ghoul though?

Im still waiting for my ghouled werewolf citation..

>>53068387
If Caine can't beat the highest theoretical Archmages, I doubt it.

>>53068418
>Can a exalted become a ghoul though?
Probably not. There are various 'sub splats' in exalted in the form of children of the main ones. Gods have god blooded children and so on. When someone exalts it burns away those powers and replaces them.

Archmages can change how perfect defenses work at seven dots.

Not sure how Exalts are going to win this.

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Can I get some help image spamming this thread away so we can move onto something less stupid?

>>53068438
I should mention though that, by default, a Solar anima won't cause licks to just explode into dust in their presence. Solar animas don't count as "natural" daylight unless you take a certain charm in Integrity.

>>53068445
If the Archmage gets the first say in the matter, he/she will win.

Archmages also can't be killed by Exalts. They just respawn.

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>>53068451

>>53068361
Magefags don't know that omnipotence is not a valid argument against an Exalt.

>>53068445
I can parry that.

>"I'm omnipotent"
>"nuh uhh I can beat chu"
>"what?
>"just because"

Exalted dumbasses in a nutshell.

>>53068466
Ghost eating technique could kill the fundamental creators of the universe from the word go. It explicitly kills anything that normally just respawns, and so far the only thing it can't kill is death.

>>53068473
Except it is entirely valid based on what omnipotence is.

>>53068486
I'm not arguing that it isn't stupid as shit, but its stupid shit that got published as canon.

>>53068486
>Exalted in a nutshell.

FTFY. Yes, it's acknowledged that this is fucking stupid. It is what it is.

>>53068490
Golden Roads can't be targeted

kek

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>>53068471

>>53068397
Exalts are from another universe.

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>>53068532

>>53068415
>So Omnipotents are weaker in Exalted?
Nope.

>>53068486
Yes, Exalted fans are retards. We know this.

I'm actually on their side. Anything under seven dots is beatable. Just not when Excisions can remove their perfect defenses.

They're also trying to argue that they can beat omnipotence. You can't do this.

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>>53068547

>>53068445
>change how perfect defenses work
And Exalts can prevent that change before it happens.

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Can touhou kill archmages?

>>53068577
I'm sure they can, friend.

I'm sure they can.

>>53068552
Exalted gamelines have full acknowledged that this shit doesn't make a single lick of sense and yet it's still completely canon. The devs dug themselves right into a corner and just kind stood there for the rest of the edition pretending everything is fine.

>>53068511
Not against Exalted.

>>53068552
>They're also trying to argue that they can beat omnipotence. You can't do this.

They oppose omnipotence with omnipotence. Unstoppable force, immovable object. Two different metaphysical sets with conflicting descriptions of how this situation resolves. Neither side wins on pure logic alone; the debate is unresolvable.

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>>53068574
Hey I found a topical one.

>>53068607
Especially against Exalted. Your perfect defenses are too specialized to be of any use.

>>53068583
Actually, this is maybe the one thing that can get us off this.

HEY ANON, YOUR WAIFU IS FUCKING DOGSHIT. YOU LITERALLY CAN'T HAVE WORSE TASTE THAN THAT YOU FAGGOT

>>53068612
>the debate is unresolvable
While I will agree with this just to potentially end this stupid debate, I will still have to side with the magefags, Based on just how their mechanics works.

I'd rather you all shut up though.

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>>53068621

I'm amazed by how retarded Exalted fans are. Just sitting here mind blown.

Are all weebs this lacking?

>>53068641
Certainly, but saying the same for the Exaltedfags isn't any less valid, making the debate even more stupid.

So, how about them Changelings, huh? That 20th anniversary edition is surprisingly okay.

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>>53068658
Come on guys, just a few more posts. Help me out here.

>>53068622
Heavenly Guardian Defense blocks anything Space, Forces or Matter related. Integrity Protecting Prana stops everything else. Spell Shattering Palm tops anything that would interfere with their ability to use those charms. Reflexive Sidestep Technique automatically ensures they have a chance to use these powers in time to top anything.

Perfect defense cancels our perfect offense?

Even if true, how the fuck does this change the fact that Archmages don't need offense to beat them our of existence?
My god, Archmages win this. Stop being so biased towards white-anime.

You're not going to beat something explicitly made to tackle invincible entities.

>>53068640
Drat, I need to get more specific

Asuka is a stuck up bitch with no redeeming factors
Satsuki is literally just fetish bait
Chun Li is a fucking jobber
Gwenpool is a corporate meme and nothing more

>>53068678
It's the gameline thats retarded. You're perfectly justified in thinking that these powers make no logical sense and shouldn't exist, because you're right, but it doesn't matter. The devs wrote them down and then stuck to them and built a whole fucking edition off them.

>>53068704
Just let the Exalted fags believe what they want to believe.

You can't reason with idiots. Just from this thread I can tell they're worse than vampfags.

>>53068704
>Even if true, how the fuck does this change the fact that Archmages don't need offense to beat them our of existence?

It's been explained to you multiple times: because Exalted's definition of an "attack" goes beyond physically swinging a weapon or a fist at a guy and includes *any* attempt to negatively affect somebody, whether by wounding his health levels or by altering/removing his traits. Essence is itself a trait.

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>>53068687

>>53068704
>You're not going to beat something explicitly made to tackle invincible entities.

Yeah, about that with regard to the Exalted...

Magefags have committed a critical error here. The omnipotence spell, isn't. Check the spell again, it's a nine dot effect. That means a ten dot spell is by definition more powerful. You can't be more powerful than omnipotence, it's an absolute. Meaning the fact it's a nine dot spell removes the possibility of omnipotence, because it's not as powerful as it get for Mages.

>>53068738
You might as well say the same thing about Imperial Mysteries, only it wasn't written with bullshit in mind.

This isn't a solvable debate, yet I would still favor Archmages based on how infinite the possibilities can be. Exalts lose the edge based on how narrow they are.
It still isn't certain though.

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>>53068762
So wait, should we make a new thread the second this one hits bump limit and jump ship as soon as possible or wait as long as we can and hope this dies out?

>>53068784
Oh, go ahead and make the thread now, we're in autosage and I have no interest in continuing this debate past this thread anyway.

>>53068742
That doesn't sound very impressive.

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>>53068784
Because I'm eager to get away from this as soon as possible.

>>53068775
Assumption is actually permanent Transfiguration. The same thing with a far superior frame.

Ten dots is effectively the same thing.

>>53068814
It's not. It's retarded. We acknowledge that it's retarded. That's why we all play Ex3 now which isn't as ridiculously OP. It still is what it is.

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>>53068762

>>53068778
This.

No matter how much defenses an Exalt has, an Archmage can work around it. The Imperial Practices are supposed to be infinite as well, meaning 'slaughtering an exalt 1v1' is entirely valid to them.

>>53068839
I wouldn't call it overpowered at all, actually.

It's not as invincible as you seem to think it is.

>>53068845
>tfw no shredded werewolf gf to beat me up
>tfw no shy mage who uses life magic to give herself a toned form because she thinks I would like it
>tfw no promethian created to have the perfect physique
>tfw no ripped oger changeling

>>53068552
Again
>Any use of Excision on an entity (rather than an object or location) is resisted.
That said, there are a thousand other ways to beat an Exalted.

>>53068692
How does that stop time travel?

>>53068857
It only takes seven dots (Excisions) to kill the strongest possible Solar.

The question is if the Solar will know of the attack before it happens.

>>53068892
>Any use of Excision on an entity (rather than an object or location) is resisted.
Read the fucking book.

That said, there are a bunch of other ways to defeat an Exalted.

>>53068857
>No matter how much defenses an Exalt has, an Archmage can work around it

And yet no matter how an Archmage tries to work around it, there's always something a maxed-out Solar has to negate what he tries to do. That's the problem. It's more narrow than what an Archmage can do, but it's narrow in *exactly the right spot* to fuck with any attempt to fuck the Solar over.

I understand that you don't want to accept this because it's stupid. It IS stupid. But this is the game we got in 2005.

>>53068857
>>53068892
Exalted has a "la la la I can't hear you" clause written in the core book. Any power that gets around a perfect defense actually doesn't because reasons thats why.

>>53068892
I'm pretty sure an archmage could just make himself into an exalted that's better than a solar, say not requiring combos to use multiple charms and unlimited power supply and ability to spend it. Also still be an archmage. It doesn't seem like the Exalted is going to win in the end. Also time travel as >>53068881
mentions.

>>53068925
How does this stop time travel?

>>53067732
Or you can use basic space magic to get out of range and wait for the perfect defense to expire.

>>53068935
It's flat impossible. Trying to time travel in exalted world does nothing and always fails.
Another way the metaphysics are literally fundamentally incomparable

>>53068918
>>53068925
Eh, I will just remove it using Excision. Or if you're really obsessed over the "resistance" part, I might as well use Transfiguration to bypass it.

Not something you can actually argue. Unless you want to appease your bias and say "unstoppable force meets and unmovable object", in which case the Archmage will still win by changing the definition of the saying.

I agree it's retarded, I just don't agree that it's going to win against a sufficiently obsessed Archmaster who knows of your capabilities perfectly.

>>53068966
Supernal magic is all about rejecting your reality and substituting it with your own.

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New thread when qq

>>53068954
This is indeed the one canon way to defeat a solar exalt. Divide his total essence pool by the cost of a perfect defense, and hit him with that number plus one world breaking attacks.

>>53068935
Integrity-Protecting Prana would cover that, I'd say.

>>53068966
Except time travel works perfectly in Awakening. So you're fucked.

>>53068975
>Eh, I will just remove it using Excision.
You try. It fails. Why does it fail? Because it just does. But that makes no sense right? Right. It's irrelevant. It still fails.
>in which case the Archmage will still win by changing the definition of the saying.
See above, all of his attempts automatically and universally fail for no reason.
>>53068985
I know. And in exalted the world says fuck you if you try and you can't.

>>53068988
I hope never. I love seeing Exalted fags get trashed.

>>53069028

>>53068935
It doesn't need logic. Its literally Gurren Lagann Shonen logic, which is to say its a kind of anti-logic.

The game clearly states that Perfect Defenses always work, no matter what, because they do. Anything that logically would get around them, instead doesn't, because that is how they are defined as working.

All these calm, precise arguments coming from the Magefags are the kinds of things that would result in "But how?! You should be dead! Its impossible!" dialogue from said Archmage when said Solar does in fact survive, because Solars literally exist in a setting where logic is considered at best a polite suggestion.

>>53069020
Nope. It succeeds.

>>53069004
But it doesn't in exalted. Once again, this argument is impossible because in one way or another you have to completely break the underlying assumptions of one game line.

>>53069035
You're honestly just obsessed with something that can in-fact be beaten.

It's ok, breath it in. Archmages in. QQ
Ssshhh, it will be ok,

The big bad meanies won't remove your perfect defensed using seven dots. It's just a story. Sshhh,

>>53068988
When you make it.

>>53068975
>in which case the Archmage will still win by changing the definition of the saying.

And then Integrity-Protecting Prana shields the Solar from the consequences of that change.

Look. The Solar Exalted were *designed to fight things capable of making the same kinds of changes to the fundaments of reality as archmasters can*. If they couldn't survive something like a total redefinition of the parameters of existence, they never would have won the Primordial War.

>>53069022
Then what are you doing in this thread?

>>53069051
In your homebrew sure. But that isn't exalted, because exalted doesn't work like that.

>>53069020
>And in exalted the world says fuck you if you try
Since when do the lies of the fallen world get to say no to Supernal Truth?

>>53069075
Archmages are being explicitly capable of fighting things like Solars. If they didn't, the Fall would have never happened.

>>53069098
And thus it, again, comes to that full circle UF/IO problem that makes this argument really stupid no matter which side you favor.

>>53069089
In your homebrew sure. But that isn't Awakening, because Awakening doesn't work like that.

>>53069093
Since when does Supernal Truth have any meaning in Creation?