What are your must have races and classes for a fantasy setting

>Big strong race
>Small quick race
>'Normal' race
>Mystical Magical Special Snowflake Race

Gotta have dwarves

There always has to be a fighter equivalent, since nearly every RPG I've played is based around the idea there's at least one big guy that'll make the hoards of monsters waste their attack rolls on while the rest of the party sets up.

>>53056347
there are only two ways.
Either Human only or tons of races.
Anything in between is just doing Humans a disservice.
Make sure you also include different cultures so that no race just equals one culture.

If you want a traditional setting, you can go with a different take on a race that already exists.
im gonna give you a well known example: take Dark elves, make em into god king worshipping semites and youve got Dunmer, who are just a bunch more interresting than Drow are. Just dont force it too hard and dont drop the characterization hard.
Dunmer are still a race of nasty slavery who think they are the greatest.

You could for example take Lizardmen and make em into a race of time travelers who traveled forward in time to avoid extinction.
You could take Orcs and make em a Society that lives on the principles that their Gods died a long time ago and that the Gods of all other people are activeely working to destroy them (hence why orcs always lose despite beeing big and strong)


Classes: If you want to have classes, make sure classes are Iconic and fit multiple cultures, not just one.
Make sure each class sitll has an iconic aesthetic that can be shared across a multitude of characters

File: 23566571a38434ffa434cb15e2e699a0.jpg (128KB, 800x981px) Image search: [Google]

128KB, 800x981px

>>53056347

>Aquatic race that's good in water.

>Light-weight race that can fly/glide/jump pretty damn high.

>Arctic race that's impervious to chill.

>A race that's good with magic.

>A race that's good with technology.

>A race of merchants and bankers.

>A race of extraterrestial/interdimensional/transexistential ayyys.

>A race that is nearly extinct/dying out.

>A race everyone else wished would go extinct.

A single race can have more than one of the above features.

Stout industrious race
Mysterious lives with nature race
Small clever race

I tend to crib the of mythologies so my stuff is similar to Tolkien, but my small clever races are also often my stout industrious race due to myths about Kobolds and bluecaps and such

>>53058960
You, I like you. I enjoy races being very distinct with obvious bonuses and flaws.

>>53056347
Gotta have a Cheesemancer

>>53059139

How would you define races that aren't that very distinct?

>>53056347
Races:
>Stout: Dwarf
>Fairy: Wood Elf/Fairy/Angel
>Mundane: Human
>High Men: High Elf/Human
>Cute: Halfling/Gnome

Occasionally there's a sixth:
>Strong: Orc or Giant

The classes tend to be organized along the following archetypes:
>Warrior: Melee or ranged fighty, leadership and intimidation skills
>Expert: Single-target high damage, skill monkey, deception skills
>Priest: Healing, buff spells
>Mage: Area of effect damage spells, utility spells

Then you can combine them together in various ways: A Ranger is a Warrior/Expert, for example. And personally I've always thought the druid would be better as a Priest/Expert with less focus on spellcasting and more focus on shapeshifting.

>>53056347
Humans and furries, with them covering all the traditional fantasy race niches.

File: 1406557598857.jpg (259KB, 1280x974px) Image search: [Google]

259KB, 1280x974px

>>53056347

What's the difference between a class and a profession/vocation?

>>53059662
Profession/vocation usually doesn't grant hit points or attack bonuses.

>>53056491
>there are only two ways.
>Either Human only or tons of races.
>Anything in between is just doing Humans a disservice.
>Make sure you also include different cultures so that no race just equals one culture.
What about Human and around 4-5 other races, and each race including Human has about 2-3 distinct ethnic groups and each ethnic group has around 6-9 subcultures?

Also how about if each race is generally separated and around a continent apart from each other, which allows them t each focus on their own racial strife and troubles and identity, and its not until merchants and PCs go globetrotting, causing the party to have to roleplay what is like to be a stranger in a strange land where everyone else thinks you're a wierdo?

Humans
The Elder Race (genetically/culturally/technologically superior but human - your Melniboneans and Atlanteans)
Trogs/Ape-men
Elder Things (a la Mountains of Madness - any alien life form that has inhabited earth since before the first mewling primates scraped hides with rock flakes)

All you'll ever need.

>>53056347
>What are your must have races and classes for a fantasy setting /tg/?
The Stout Race, The Graceful Race, the Mighty Race, and Humans.

>>53059662
Whatever you want there to be

Goblins. Every fantasy homebrew I've ever run has had goblins as playable.

>>53056347
>Humans
>Assortment of other things that adequately display the fantastical qualities of your setting

File: IMG_20170504_174419.jpg (4KB, 87x91px) Image search: [Google]

4KB, 87x91px

>>53060207

>>53060506

I am unable to determine what you meant to say by this

>>53056347
I've been toying with a human's only setting but with plane-touched ancestry thrown into the mix. So things like fae or infernal ancestry serves to allow different 'races' with there being subraces within each 'race'.

Winter fae ancestry presents with characteristics typical of high-elves; pale skin, tall, stoic, severe 'noble' features (giantism, claws, hard chitinous ridges can also present but rarely)

Summer fae = wild elves, dusky-skinned, short, mischievous, savage animalistic features (flattened doe-like noses, antlers and fur can present but rarely)

Primal (autumn) fae usually creates goblinoid creatures

Flowering (spring) fae tends to present with plant-like features

You still end up with a mixed bag of folk in every shape, size and style, but I think the origin is a little cleaner than having a world filled with dozens of sentient races from a hundred branches of evolution

>>53060829
>dozens of sentient races from a hundred branches of evolution
Your standard fantasy has everything made by gods, often in a concerted effort
Trying to apply modern understanding of species to fantasy is a terrible mistake

>>53060949
Good point, touche.

I'm not a fan of relying on higher powers like that, though, honestly, my main setting is on a nature-preserve style planet seeded by cosmic races with AI gods keeping watch. So, I'm a hypocrite.

>>53061103
>>53060829
Bro, your trip
https://youtu.be/YgHNtzxO0y8

>>53056347
Old race
New race
Savage race
skilled race
hidden race
Undead

>>53056347
elves or basically-elves

Everything else is to taste, including humans. Human-only settings tend to have humans who are functionally elves, because fantasy without magic is lame.

>>53056347
Mandatory teir: Human, elf, dwarf.
Typical tier: Halfling, Gnome, Orc.
Optional tier: Goblin/kobold, a "devil" race, a "furry" race, race with natural wings.
Wannabe tier: Elemental humanoid, playable evil monster people


Side rant: Fuck "Half-" races, fuck that shit forever.

>>53059662
Class is a gamism concept while profession is a narativism.

>>53061792
But anon, what if you want to have orcish strength but still roleplay yourself, or have elven grace, magic and longevity but still roleplay yourself?

>>53056358
>Normal race

Cancer. Never do this.

File: armello___barnaby_by_flowersimh-d9tfgyb.png (220KB, 650x650px) Image search: [Google]

220KB, 650x650px

>>53059642
This but minus the humans.
I find Redwall and Armello-inspired campaign settings fun.

>>53056347
>humans
>elves
That's it. No, really.

I have about 6 distinct cultures of western men, and some groups of dark-skinned men from the east, though only one of those actually interact with the western people, as they are the ones who picked up and moved west for some reason.

Then there are the high elves, the wood elves who are like friendlier high elves, the dark elves who are really into mysticism with a hindu/persian culture, the more feral wood elves, reclusive magic snow elves who want everyone to stay the fuck away from their mountains, and the wild nomadic eastern elves who live in tents and hunt for survival.

I thought about dwarves but I don't think they are necessary. Maybe this is personal bias but I see them as more one-dimensional and I don't need a short mining people in my setting.

>>53059608
>>53060829
>>53062276
>"high elves"
>"wood/wild elves"
Wow, how cool and original.

Humans, and that's really it. Anything else is mutable. When I do add something I prefer to make them at least reasonably distinct from humans so you don't end up with guys who feel too too much like just humans in funny hats, even if that's what they're going to end up being anyway.

>>53058960
>Light-weight race that can fly/glide/jump pretty damn high.
https://68.media.tumblr.com/7699dda9f4c5f72253235fd07ac42721/tumblr_omwzfvB8LY1ruvxico4_1280.png

>>53056491
>there are only two ways.
>Either Human only or tons of races.

What do you say about a setting like The Elder Scrolls?

6 non humans
4 different humans

or
4 elf races
4 human races
2 beast races

>>53056347
>elusive and reserved, with alien features and bodies made for moving in overgrown vegetation
>bold and hot-blooded, with a steadfast physique
>curious and unconventional, mostly as an exaggeration of human's defining features
>pragmatic and flexible, as those beings that do not exactly have a thing they consider a common legacy, land, or culture, but live in symbiosis with others by taking on unique niches.

>>53056491
no humans, never more than ten culturally distinct factions

>>53063846
I have made up names for them, but those are colloquialisms everyone understands.

For the record they're the Elendi and Alänni

>>53056347
Humans.
Human-like sex robots for the humans to reproduce with.
Daemons of generic variety.

>>53061958
People need a baseline to compare things with, there's nothing wrong with that.

>>53059868
its alright if the other races arent "Tall human" and two variations of "short human" imo.

>>53065664
In TES these categories are realy different tho. For one the four human races realy are just cultures but the elven races are realy distinct from one another biologically.
Case in point: Khajiits are actually elves too.

But then again, might just me beeing nostalgic about Morrowind.

>>53071557
Yokudans aren't human though, and bretons are half-elves. Nords and Cyrods are most similar, both at some point coming from the original humans from Atmora.

>>53056347

> Minotaurs
> Harpies
> Satyrs
> Cyclops

>>53071557
>but the elven races are realy distinct from one another biologically
Not much moreso than the humans

File: i622^cimgpsh_orig.jpg (936KB, 1926x1541px) Image search: [Google]

936KB, 1926x1541px

>>53056491
>You could for example take Lizardmen and make em into a race of time travelers who traveled forward in time to avoid extinction.
I'm stealing this for some Turn-A Gundam shenanigans in a future game. CTRL-F moon race, replace with with lizards.

File: 1464268083080.jpg (15KB, 269x211px) Image search: [Google]

15KB, 269x211px

>>53065589
>links to tumblr png.
>instead of just posting the pic
>on an imageboard

FUCK I FORGOT IT'S SUMMER ALREADY

>>53059457
Not him, but:

+2 str -2 dex
+2 cha +2 wis -2str
+2 dex +4 str -4 int (infravision)

D&D is moronic in its dealing of fantasy races.

A dwarf should be able to withstand the corruption of magic through sheer willpower, have a constitution that allows him to work days without rest, literally piss beer, with muscles the size of tree trunks and a mastering of everything smithy... not +2 Constitution, –2 Charisma. That's even before considering obviously magical advantage, like blood made of molten lava or something like that.

Each race should feel really different, to hell the balance. Life isn't balanced. When you're born wealthy, you have an inherent advantage other someone born piss poor. Your race should be the same: yes, an elf is better than you. Accept it. Play one if you want the 'I am 8000 years old and can jump over trees and bench press dragon' experience. If not, play something else.

File: 1464613577223.jpg (13KB, 500x305px) Image search: [Google]

13KB, 500x305px

>>53065589

>>53074294
>A dwarf should be able to withstand the corruption of magic through sheer willpower, have a constitution that allows him to work days without rest, literally piss beer, with muscles the size of tree trunks and a mastering of everything smithy
Why?
>Each race should feel really different, to hell the balance. Life isn't balanced.
Luckily we can play games where life's unfairness can be ignored.

>>53074337
>Why?
Because playing a stout human isn't that fun? Or fantastic? Because it cheapens the idea of races? Because LoTR doesn't work like that, as most ancient mythology?

Because I want to play a real dwarf? Not some small humans?

File: 1461817078108.gif (390KB, 250x188px) Image search: [Google]

390KB, 250x188px

>>53058960

File: WFRP2_RACES&STATS.jpg (150KB, 650x469px) Image search: [Google]

150KB, 650x469px

>>53074294
I feel that having unbalanced races can be tough to deal with as a GM, if you have players that tend to optimizing more than narrative enthusiasts.
So I like that WFRP 2nd ED did balance elves in a way: They have above average stats, where everyones else have worse, elves have only 1 really bad starting career ("classes") but several very good ones, with the other races you are lucky if you have 3 good starting careers. The only drawback on elves is that they have fewer fate points ("get-out-of-jail-for-free-sorta-cards") than the others, with 1 or 2 for elves, and up to 3 for the other races. So it is somewhat blanaced in terms of stats, but the lore states that there should be vast racism towards elves because they are percieved to all be witches or something, and the general populance of the Empire do not take kindly to magic-users.

>>53061857
Fucking don't? Or play a system that allows human PCs to be as strong as an orc.

>>53074399
LotR dwarves are literally just humans made by a god didn't have the right picture to reference, mythology dwarves were just ugly, greedy midgets and/or dark elves, and a "real" dwarf is a human being with a genetic disorder.

Out of all fantasy races, dwarves are some of the most "normal" on table, beaten out perhaps only by LotR hobbits

>>53056347
Anything Godly

>>53056347
>What are your must have races and classes for a fantasy setting /tg/?

I'm the wrong person to ask when it comes to >Races since I have a tendency to go absolutely fucking CRAZY (I want to be able to play as ANYTHING), but CLASSES:

>Warrior.
>Sneak Thief.
>Outdoorsman.
>Holy Caster.
>Wizard Caster.
>Ooga Booga Primitive Caster.
>Song Guy.

There, that's all the classes you need- everything is either a deviation or combination of one or more of these classes.
Caster have the largest variation due to how varied magical sources can be: book learning, bible thumping, fucked a demon right in her psuedo-penis, or you were raised by trees.

But a Paladin is just a Priest in plate, and a Barbarian is just a Warrior with an ethnic background in ooga, and so on and so forth.

>>53056347
Fighting man
Sneaky man
Healing Man
Guy who fights good, but doesn't wear heavy armor.
Guy who shoots stuff
Sometimes these are merged, squished together, or otherwise tweaked, but I really can't see a game working well without these, unless something highly specialized is going on.

Races, I either go Human only, Human (Archetypally speaking here, not necessarily by name), Orc, Elf, Halfling, and probably 1 or 2 wildcards, or Human+A fuckton of races who probably overlap with eachother, but that's not why the list is big.

>>53056358
>Mystical Magical Special Snowflake Race
Every race is a special snowflake race

File: Spurveridderen.jpg (129KB, 820x1600px) Image search: [Google]

129KB, 820x1600px

This thread actually made me dig up some of my old notes about the races I have made for my games, tabletop or otherwise. Race creation is actually a process I am fond of to a great degree so I wont hesitate at all to make something if there's an excuse for it.

But to be on topic of the thread, I actually dont have that many races that I re-use, I more often re-use ideas or themes instead to give them new spins. I do have couple that I repeatedly bring back though due to me being so proud of them. Firstly is a "race" called the Unseen League, an adventurer/merchant group composed of rodents and small fey creatures, mainly fairies. The other not quite so often used is "Helplings", a simple race who's whole purpose is to help others.

>>53075409

>Every race is a special snowflake race

What about humans?

>>53073272
Bosmer grow horns and have other animalistic traits. Khajiit are literal cat people. Alright dunmer are mostly a difference in skinc olour but they are a drastic difference in skin colour.
Not to meniton that they also dont quite look as "pristine" as high elves look in their alienness.

Always fit minotaurs in somehow.

>>53058960
odd mix of physical characteristics, cultural characteristics and origin stories here

>>53076573

Nothing wrong with that.

>Nonplayable
No fantasy setting is complete without some kind of dragons.
>Playable
Kobolds, I'll never get tired of the little shits

>>53071515
>People need a baseline to compare things with
Why?
Just claiming it doesn't make it so.

>>53056347
For races I prefer all humans and then I can take the other typical fantasy races and make them much more freaky and rare NPCs, though certain individuals are probably half or part something and have clear traits because of it, such as a knack for magic due to Elf or fae blood or a much more robust build if they are part orc or troll. The vast majority of the population is till just regular humans. I feel it builds a setting to the players better to start out rather mundane in a human town doing what amounts to dangerous chores as fantastic elements become more and more apparent over time until by the end the story your off helping the last elf queen battle the mother of all dragons in the fallen city of the titans.

The only settings I like with a tonne of different races all being playable and part of the same society is in sci-fi, and even then human only sci fi is pretty good.

Assuming Clichea Genericum

Playable races:
Human
Elf
Dorf
you don't need anything else. Orcs are a must in the background, but don't need, and even shouldn't be available to players
halflings and gnomes are completely optional

Classes:
>implying classless isn't patrician

>>53077784
Having a jack of all trades is common and good game design.

File: xenoraptor.jpg (41KB, 736x532px) Image search: [Google]

41KB, 736x532px

>>53056347
>Assuming its a more 'classic/generic' setting like DnD rather than something more out there.

I've got 27 non-human races + humans, but only humans are playable because reasons. I suppose it's a non-generic setting though.

>>53056347
>Human
>Dwarves
>Elves

>Warrior
>Specialist
>Magician

Race as Class
If you have trouble justifying the niche the race-as-class in question is supposed to occupy then the race is unnecessary.

>>53078390
>Race as Class
Literally the worst thing to happen to FRP since ever.

>>53078421
Can you give a single argument as to why race as class isn't infinitely superior to "I technically have an option but all the means is I'm going to choose the best racial bonuses that go with the class I want to play" race and class?

>>53056347
No elves, no dwarves, no halflings, no giants. Basically, anything that looks like a human's going to be a human. I find it helps to make a setting stand out more by not playing that game. It then gives me more room to add in things that are explicitly not human, but still playable. My favorite so far being mosquitocorns.

>>53078494
Race-as-class makes no logical sense unless your entire setting is bending over backwards to explain why only one species in the entire setting can learn to pick locks.

Race and class allows far greater exploration of the differences between races than race-as-class. Compare 'dwarves can't be clerics' to 'dwarves can be clerics, and here is how they and their religious practices differ from human and elven ones'.

>I technically have an option but all the means is I'm going to choose the best racial bonuses that go with the class I want to play
Not everybody is a munchkin, anon.

>>53078619

>I technically have an option but all the means is I'm going to choose the best racial bonuses that go with the class I want to play

It's something I've been pondering (Some friends and I are working on a 4e style heartbreaker) for races. Removing abilities scores from classes entirely and making the racial stuff more showing in the other stuff. I mean, look at the 4e dwarf without any stat bonuses:

>+2 Dungeoneering
>+2 Endurance
>Speed 5 (6 is base)
>+5 racial bonus to saving throws against poison.
>You can use your second wind as a minor action instead of a standard action.
>You gain proficiency with the throwing hammer and the warhammer.
>Move normal speed in armour that would slow you.
>Reduce the distance of forced movement by 1 and get a free saving throw vs any effect that would knock you prone to negate it.

...that's pretty conclusively a dwarf. He's tough, good undergroun, he's not very fast and likes armour and one he sets his feet down he doesn't move. If anything, stats are kinda redundant as they just improve things he's otherwise good at.

>>53078619
>Race-as-class makes no logical sense unless your entire setting is bending over backwards to explain why only one species in the entire setting can learn to pick locks.
Only if you're a retard and think that "picking locks" justifies a whole new race. See my original post.
>Compare 'dwarves can't be clerics'
*Dwarven clerics can't be adventurers
Which CAN make sense because of religious reasons.
>'dwarves can be clerics, and here is how they and their religious practices differ from human and elven ones'.
As if that shit ever happens in game. Players are human and usually just play non-human characters as human-with-a-gimmick. Why not just play a human with that gimmick? It's not like humans don't have different cultures or anything.

Non-human races should be different from humans Because this is a role playing GAME the differences should be substantial or mechanical, on par with the difference between a martial and a spellcaster. Otherwise you might as well be playing humans only with different racial bonuses reflected different people, their cultures, and the benefits/curses placed on them.

>>53075477
ESPECIALLY HUMANS.

>>53078747
Because it's SHIT
>...that's pretty conclusively a dwarf.
No it's NOT. There is nothign there that says "For better or worse, this is a fucking dwarf"
>+Skills
That's not a dwarf, that's culture
>>Speed 5 (6 is base)
Why don't actual dwarf humans have a speed penalty? Why is this exclusive to dwarves?
>+5 racial bonus to saving throws against poison.
This doesn't even mean anything. Dwarves are good at resisting poison... Why? Because they are Dwarves? Why? Repeat.
>You gain proficiency with the throwing hammer and the warhammer.
See above
>Move normal speed in armour that would slow you.
See above
>Reduce the distance of forced movement by 1 and get a free saving throw vs any effect that would knock you prone to negate it.
This makes the OPPOSITE of sense. Something smaller and weighs less...is HARDER to move or knock down? What?

I realized halfway though this post I'm not arguing for race-as-class, I'm arguing for humans only.

>>53078833
>his makes the OPPOSITE of sense. Something smaller and weighs less...is HARDER to move or knock down? What?
Lower center of balance would actually make a thing harder to knock down. And dwarves don't weigh less; they're denser than people, like chimps

>>53078781
>Only if you're a retard and think that "picking locks" justifies a whole new race.
Nigger, are you retarded? The point I was making is that it's completely fucking stupid that only human adventurers can learn how to pick locks.

>Which CAN make sense because of religious reasons.
So you're saying that literally 100% of dwarven faiths stipulate that you can never find yourself in a situation that can be classed as an adventure? And if I want to homebrew up one that doesn't I have to either write a whole new class or bodge the dwarf abilities onto the cleric ones, thus creating race and class? And you expect me to not put the book down in disgust?

>the differences should be substantial or mechanical
And, you see, if you weren't shit at designing racial mechanics packages, they would be.

I mean, look at this >>53078747. That's a dwarf. No matter whether he's breaking troll knees, blessing a mine vein, designing a new kind of arbalest, or filching idols, he's still a dwarf.

Besides, point-buy character creation is the natural superior to both. Classes and races should just be packages of options you can buy.

If I can't play a failed abortion that shambles alongside telepathic penguins from the otherworld and subsists on rainbow spiders that weave the tapestry of fate, then what's the point of having any races other than human?

>>53078833
>That's not a dwarf, that's culture
No, it isn't. Dwarves are physically tougher and skilled underground.
>Why don't actual dwarf humans have a speed penalty? Why is this exclusive to dwarves?
Why would they?
>This makes the OPPOSITE of sense. Something smaller and weighs less...is HARDER to move or knock down? What?
Dwarves weigh more than humans, and they're lower to the ground.
>There is nothign there that says "For better or worse, this is a fucking dwarf"
What WOULD say that to you?

>>53078833

>This doesn't even mean anything. Dwarves are good at resisting poison... Why? Because they are Dwarves? Why? Repeat.

'Because they are dwarves' basically is the answer. The same sort of answer to 'Why do elves run faster' or 'Why can dragonborn breath fire'

>>53078781
>Players are human and usually just play non-human characters as human-with-a-gimmick. Why not just play a human with that gimmick?
They are. Their gimmick is being short and grumpy. The game calls that archetype "dwarf"
I don't understand why people insist on thinking non-human races were meant to be anything other than caricatures and sterotypes of other cultures. If you wanna roll other races as 4 fourarmed aliens with 6th dimensional vision and a completely alien and unroleplayable mindset, go right ahead, but don't pretend like that's been the standard in fantasy at any point.

>>53078948
>Nigger, are you retarded? The point I was making is that it's completely fucking stupid that only human adventurers can learn how to pick locks.
And my point was that it would be stupid to make a race whose specialty was "can pick locks" something anything intelligent could do.
Basically: Not an argument.
>So you're saying that literally 100% of dwarven faiths stipulate that you can never find yourself in a situation that can be classed as an adventure?
It's possible, they aren't human. It could be a similar thing like how queen ants don't really leave their hills.
> And if I want to homebrew up one that doesn't I have to either write a whole new class or bodge the dwarf abilities onto the cleric ones, thus creating race and class?
Do you have a reason to make them Dwarves, do they have a trait that cannot be taken away so you can't just use humans with that trait instead?
>And, you see, if you weren't shit at designing racial mechanics packages, they would be.
But you don't even know anything about how I design my races.
>No matter whether he's breaking troll knees
Not dwarf specific
>blessing a mine vein,
No reason a human couldn't
>designing a new kind of arbalest
See this is the kind of shit I'm talking about.
None of the shit you just described as being a dwarf trait is something only dwarves do.

>>53079019
>I don't understand why people insist on thinking non-human races were meant to be anything other than caricatures and sterotypes of other cultures.

Because there are a lot of settings where those races are just was wide-ranging as humans are?

To go to /tg/'s D&D whipping boy: You won't expect an Evermeet Elf to be the same as one from Myth Dranor or the streets of Waterdeep.

>>53079025
don't you have some youtube video to comment deus vult on

>>53079025
>None of the shit you just described as being a dwarf trait is something only dwarves do.
There is nothing only dwarves can do.

>>53079025

>None of the shit you just described as being a dwarf trait is something only dwarves do.

So what IS a dwarf trait then?

>>53079025
Are you retarded or something?

>>53079042
And there are far more where they are not. I'm all for cultural variance in other races; makes a world much more believable. But that's a niche within a niche. Projecting that onto the whole genre as if it was commonplace is just didshonest

>>53079057
A short human

>>53079079

Which settings have them as a singular stereotype? Even Tolkien didn't. Mirkwood Elves were very different people, culturally.

>>53079128
>Even Tolkien didn't.
Well, you only really get one sort of Hobbit. Or two sorts if you differentiate between 'sit on their ass at home' and 'go adventuring', but that applies to pretty much every race.

>>53079163

Mind you, those hobbits are also all from a single town. If humans had only one town, they'd be pretty mono-culture too.

>>53078980
>Dwarves are physically tougher and skilled underground.
This doesn't make any sense. Explain further
>Why would they?
If dwarves move slower, and the primary difference between a human and dwarf is height, then why don't humans who are dwarf size move slower?
>Dwarves weigh more than humans, and they're lower to the ground.
According to D&D 5e average human weighs more than average dwarf, but okay.
>What WOULD say that to you?
Something humans literally cannot do, that also offers disadvantages so they, but that aspect must be mechanically distinct and isn't relegated to pure roleplay like Elf age.
So something like Birdfolk. They can fly because they have hollow bones. But because of that, they are fragile and don't wear metal armor. They developed a minor sense for magnetic fields to assist with navigating.
So mechanically speaking:
+Can fly ( along with all the cultural and narrative baggage that would entail )
+Navigation
+Can detect treasure
-Fragile, less HP per level
-Not proficient with heavy armor
And that's something I literally just made up for this thread. Imagine what you could come up with if you actually tried.

>>53079128
Yet his dwarves were the same.
Even the elves had overarching qualities that unified them. Tolkien was just an elfaboo and put the most effort into their history, giving them more variance perhaps than even the humans.

>>53079187

>According to D&D 5e average human weighs more than average dwarf, but okay.

Those stats were for 4e. Where dwarves are shorter but have a higher average weight.

>>53079187

>Something humans literally cannot do, that also offers disadvantages so they, but that aspect must be mechanically distinct and isn't relegated to pure roleplay like Elf age.

So what would you put there for Dwarves then?

>>53079187
>So something like Birdfolk. They can fly because they have hollow bones. But because of that, they are fragile and don't wear metal armor. They developed a minor sense for magnetic fields to assist with navigating.
>So mechanically speaking:
>+Can fly ( along with all the cultural and narrative baggage that would entail )
>+Navigation
>+Can detect treasure
>-Fragile, less HP per level
>-Not proficient with heavy armor
And all this without having to make them their own class.

>>53079163
Hobbits have a bunch of other subraces that are different but no one talks about because they weren't relevant. Hobbits in general were kinda a subrace of humans in the first place, so their categorization as a race in other works only serves to further muddle the race-as-species idea people seem to have

>>53079047
>There is nothing only dwarves can do.
Then justify them existing as a race and not a particular culture of humans?
>>53079045
I don't mind non-humans in settings, but they need to be non-human. Not an assortment of minor mechanics that don't actually mean anything.
>>53079076
Not an argument. Sorry for not worshiping your sacred cows.

>>53079249
>justify them existing as a race and not a particular culture of humans?
I want them to.

>>53079249
>Then justify them existing as a race and not a particular culture of humans?

So basically 'Nothing can exist unless it does something that humans can't'.

That rules out...basically every fantasy race until you hit Dragonborn or 4e's Eladrin.

>>53079249
>Then justify them existing as a race and not a particular culture of humans?
Because different cultures are portrayed through statistical differences in the game

>>53079249

>Not an assortment of minor mechanics that don't actually mean anything.

But they do. Different races can be stronger/tougher/faster without needing to go all the way to firebreathing or shitting gold.

>>53079243
I wouldn't have Dwarves to begin with, unless I could come up with something interesting beyond "short people".
>>53079246
See, but because we are playing a role playing GAME, and flight is really strong, it's far easier to have them as their own racial class than the nightmare of trying to balance that with all the archetype.
Flying bird wizard? Casters getting Fly for free? Nope.
What the fuck can a martial do against that?

>>53079187
>Something humans literally cannot do
Hmm, how about:
>+5 racial bonus to saving throws against poison.
>You can use your second wind as a minor action instead of a standard action.
>Move normal speed in armour that would slow you.
>Reduce the distance of forced movement by 1 and get a free saving throw vs any effect that would knock you prone to negate it.

>>53079304
>the nightmare of trying to balance that with all the archetype.
Once again point-buy systems show their natural superiority.

>What the fuck can a martial do against that?
Get creative. Like you're supposed to.

>>53079304

>I wouldn't have Dwarves to begin with, unless I could come up with something interesting beyond "short people".

Wow, your games must be super interesting if every single race must be completely weird to justify existence.

>>53079249
>Not an argument.
That's a "yes".

>>53079331

>Get creative. Like you're supposed to.

What stops the flying guy getting creative? Or stupid characters who would not be smart enough for creative solutions?

>>53071515
Endless Legend doesn't and it plays good

>>53079266
Okay, but I disagree.
>>53079268
>So basically 'Nothing can exist unless it does something that humans can't'.
*a player race should not exist unless it does something to set it apart from humans and actually forces the player role playing them to change the way they role play.
Like with my birdfolk example, it would be really hard to resist the temptation and play them as a normal human. They can fucking Fly.
>>53079295
But different humans are stronger/faster/tougher so why bring non-human races into it?
>>53079318
>+5 racial bonus to saving throws against poison.
A statistical benefit, not something Humans literally can not do. Did you even read before you replied?
>You can use your second wind as a minor action instead of a standard action.
Now this is something humans can't do, but now you have to ask the narrative questions: What does this even mean in that world? Purely mechanical benefit I'll give you, but doesn't answer the roleplaying aspect. Where are the dwarf "haha I can Second Wind while you humans can't so we utilize this to win our battles against non-dwarf armies" in your story? Probably not.
>Move normal speed in armour that would slow you.
Literally a form of armor proficiency
>Reduce the distance of forced movement by 1 and get a free saving throw vs any effect that would knock you prone to negate it.
See the Second Wind argument.

>>53079403

>Now this is something humans can't do, but now you have to ask the narrative questions: What does this even mean in that world? Purely mechanical benefit I'll give you, but doesn't answer the roleplaying aspect. Where are the dwarf "haha I can Second Wind while you humans can't so we utilize this to win our battles against non-dwarf armies" in your story? Probably not.

It means they are incredibly tough, able to recover from injuries far faster than a human.

File: 1489088496718.gif (3MB, 540x433px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 540x433px

>>53056347
not enough settings use merfolk or aquatic races, which is odd because people really love them. the should be a charisma/merchantile race

>>53079423
So do Dwarves have a disproportionate victory rate in their wars in your setting to reflect this?
Or maybe even something as simple as because dwarves are tougher, dwarves are hired/enslaved for high risk jobs?

>>53079366
Nothing. But you know what are other options here? Retreat, surrender, and bargaining. Seriously, engage your brain. Are you going to throw a bitch-fit if I put you up against Bozak Draconians, who can both cast spells as 4th-level wizards and fly?

>>53079448

>Or maybe even something as simple as because dwarves are tougher, dwarves are hired/enslaved for high risk jobs?

That's literally the backstory of Dwarves/Mul in Dark Sun.

>>53079462

>Are you going to throw a bitch-fit if I put you up against Bozak Draconians, who can both cast spells as 4th-level wizards and fly?

Bozaks can glide and make short hops. That's kinda the entire point of them, they have wings that are not fully formed like a proper dragon.

Which is represented in 4e by having fly speeds but needing to land before the end of the turn.

>>53079403
>A statistical benefit, not something Humans literally can not do.
Yes, it is. Humans do not have a +5 bonus to saving throws against poison.

>>53079446
I don't like merfolk at all and most games I've played aren't seafaring so they'd have no place anyway

>>53079462

>Retreat, surrender, and bargaining

...with your very example those 3 are not options.

>Retreat
Bozak are faster than you.
>Surrender
Bozak are part of an army that executes prisoners of war.
>Bargaining
They were raised as soldiers for said army and are not really given leeway to allow for bargaining with them.

>>53079403
>Like with my birdfolk example, it would be really hard to resist the temptation and play them as a normal human.
No, it would be really goddamn easy to play them as a normal human.You think anybody knows or cares to know how being able to fly will affect a personality beyond being smug that you can fly? At most you're going to get some 'I'm a bird so I eat seeds' thrown in, but the majority of the time they're just going to be Bird-Head Fred.

File: 1467452383759.jpg (76KB, 614x857px) Image search: [Google]

76KB, 614x857px

>>53079503
merfolk can have legs
water breathing is a situaltional defense, just like sleep immunity or poison resisist..
it doenst need to be a ocean campaing for it to be useful.

it is useful in swamps or rivers or lakes or in water traps or caves with water

>>53079482
Okay you are autistic no need to respond my man.
>>53079508
Being able to fly alters your behavior and tactics. Good enough roleplay effect in my opinion.
>No, it would be really goddamn easy to play them as a normal human.
The ability to fly would effect their role playing, on top of any character traits that they want the character to have.
Your argument applies to any non-human race.

>>53079527
Water is rarely used in games I've played, probably because it's extremely inconveniencing and poorly ruled

>>53079527
While I agree with you, those are too situational so will the DM either has to warp the campaign to include scenarios those traits can exploit or they will hardly be used and make any difference.
I'm trying to think of an aquatic race that has more racial advantages than just around water now.

>>53079536
>Being able to fly alters your behavior and tactics.
And the shit dwarves get does not?

>>53079446
Problem with playable aquatic races is that if someone plays as one I will feel the need to shoehorn in water based places so they don't feel like their racial traits are useless. Which is a shame, because they have a lot to offer to any setting (civilization in places that would otherwise only have water and monsters, etc)

>>53079536
>Okay you are autistic no need to respond my man.

He's not really wrong though. There is room for 'This race has X advantage' without it being 'No other race can do this'.

We have a lot of creatures IRL that are different without being such. Housecats and Tigers are not exactly the same after all but both can do the same things.

>>53079019
>I don't understand why people insist on thinking non-human races were meant to be anything other than caricatures and sterotypes of other cultures.
Because Tolkien said as much himself, probably.

>>53079592
>Housecats and Tigers
Panthers and tigers might be a better example.

>>53079574

Eh, you can have SOME water in more or less any place. Rivers and Lakes are notable terrain features even in temperate environments.

>>53079612
And yet he wrote every non-elf race as a caricature and stereotype
Tolkien was a man of many contradictions

>>53079554
>>53079561

>>53079574
do you ever shoe horn monsters that have sleep spells? do you ever shoe horn monsters that have poison?

all you need is an occasional situation where water is around. a water filled pit. a river with a monster that tries to drap them in. a water trap.

>>53079614

Eh, I was going to a bit of a 'Goliath vs Halfling' sort of difference. Both can do, fundamentally the same things after all.

>>53059662

Class depends on where your combat abilities lie.
Profession is your job.

A huntsmanis a profession while his class is that of the ranger

Or for example one can be a judge but considering his combat abilities he would be classed as a fighter.

>>53079640
Sleep is a very useful spell every caster can have from level one and poison is virtually the only non-physical damage type that can be found in a natural environment (one that isn't the arctic or currently on fire anyway)

>>53079637

Well, we only saw dwarves. iirc, Gimli is from the same place as the Hobbit dwarves and the others we saw were all dead.

It's less 'Stereotype' and more 'Limited reference pool'.

Mind you, saying that Thorin Okenshield and Gimli are the same is not really right beyond 'They both use armour and weapons'. Which covers basicly every non-gandalf character.

Actually, there WAS a fair bit about how Tooks are culturally seen as quite different from Shire hobbits. Which is why they were not quite trusted as much.

File: cristiana-grati-neck-card.jpg (1MB, 1920x2570px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1920x2570px

>>53079675
water is everywhere also, anon.... if you arent aware....

>>53079637
Maybe you're just a racist yourself, or a bog-standard SJW looking for an opportunity to feel morally superior to someone? I'm gonna listen to the author over your impotent agitation.

>>53079640
I don't need to shoehorn monsters that have poison because a shitton of them already do. Elf sleep immunity is supposed to be a really niche feature, and will generally get used two or three times tops, while for an aquatic race, being good in water is supposed to be their main strength.

>>53079569
Okay
> Humans do not have a +5 bonus to saving throws against poison.
Do your dwarves trigger traps after the rogue attempts to disarm it just in case so even if the trap is poisoned their bonus means they are more likely to survive?
Do the nobility in your setting have dwarven tasters so if their food is poisoned they are less likely to lose their taster?
Do dwarves have a poison industry because their advantage in resisting poisons means they can more safely produce and test poisons?
Does your setting have Dwarf mercenary corps when fighting poisonous creatures?
Do your rogue characters who specializes in poisons and assassinations give up when they learn the target is a dwarf saying "nope can't do that one it's a dwarf, my poisons don't do anything" or do they just power through hoping the dwarf fails it's save?
My point is, who the fuck cares about a +5 save against poison when it doesn't really matter for the setting? It's a situational bonus that doesn't actually mean anything other than occasionally not dying when the player otherwise would have.

>>53074530
WFRP's method of giving elves and dwarfs superior stats as the tradeoff for fewer extra lives is a lot like the old D&D trick of giving demi-humans a few bonuses up front in exchange for having a hard cap on the level they can reach - both are ways of saying you get a stronger character up front, but the weaker guys will have a longer potential lifespan.

As a balancing mechanic, it stinks, and just encourages metagaming over the campaign's probable duration.

>>53079732

>My point is, who the fuck cares about a +5 save against poison when it doesn't really matter for the setting? It's a situational bonus that doesn't actually mean anything other than occasionally not dying when the player otherwise would have.

But you just gave 5 ways it could affect a setting.

>>53079732
>when it doesn't really matter for the setting?
Nigger you just gave five different ways it could matter for the setting, what the fuck are you on about? I get your specific brand of autism conflates 'statistical bonus' and 'completely unimportant for roleplaying', but at least read what you've written.

File: disagreement-hierarchy.jpg (57KB, 679x516px) Image search: [Google]

57KB, 679x516px

>>53079708
Honestly you seem more agitated

>>53079754
>>53079764
Yes my brand of autism makes me believe that minor statistical bonuses are shit.
Give me something flavorful and that I can rely on.
+5 to poison saves is boring. Will I save against poison or will I not?
Poison immunity would be somewhat interesting.

>>53078619
>Race and class allows far greater exploration of the differences between races than race-as-class. Compare 'dwarves can't be clerics' to 'dwarves can be clerics, and here is how they and their religious practices differ from human and elven ones'.

It doesn't, in the context of Basic D&D where being a cleric means metal armour, no sharp weapons and a fixed spell list. A dwarf cleric will be basically indistinguishable from a short, bearded, stubborn human cleric, regardless of any lore that says humans worship the Unconquered Sun and dwarves worship their ancestors.

Of course you could make a separate class with unique powers inspired by your dwarven religious lore, but then what you're doing is race-as-class with extra options.

>>53079788

+5 is pretty massive bonus in 4e. It's only just short of 'immune to ongoing poison'

>>53079791
Basic's shit though. AD&D clerics are infinitely better.

>>53079788
It's only boring because you make it boring, anon.

Bare Minimum Races:
>Mystical (Elf)
>Material (Dwarf)
>Barbaric (Orc)
>Human (Human)
>Magical (Something funky)

Bare Minimum Classes:
>Tough guy
>Strong guy
>Ranged guy
>Hits Lots of Guys guy
>Heal guy
>Utility guy

>>53079812
And yet there are no interesting differences between dwarf and human clerics in AD&D.

>>53079791

>A dwarf cleric will be basically indistinguishable from a short, bearded, stubborn human cleric, regardless of any lore that says humans worship the Unconquered Sun and dwarves worship their ancestors.

...so the fluff behind religious beliefs isn't interesting?

>>53079822
>he's never heard of specialist clerics

>>53079811
>>53079812
It's the difference between "I'm LESS likely to be poisoned" meaning you're still going to avoid poison because there is still a chance you're going to be hurt. It doesn't make a difference concerning the decisions you will make as a player because that chance is still there.
Now if you are poison immune, you will change behavior. You can exploit your poison immunity to make decisions a non-poison immune character would not.

>>53075000
Agreed

I liked what D&D 5e did with it's classes; you kind of specialise within a class rather than having a billion different classes that are basically exactly the same thing

>>53079811
Eh, by paragon you're seeing 10 ongoing and auras and shit. By epic that shit gets ridiculous.

>>53079844

So the only stats that should exist in RPGs are Yes and No? So players don't need to deal with chance?

>>53079835
If you want it to be meaningful then it needs to be reflected in the rules. If radically different belief systems both grant *exactly the same* divine powers even down to weird ritual restrictions like no sharp weapons, then it kind of undermines the legitimacy of both religions.

>>53079835
>...so the fluff behind religious beliefs isn't interesting?
The fluff doesn't actually mean anything.
And if the fluff doesn't mean anything, there is no reason not to be playing a human instead.
>>53079858
We are talking about races, not stats. Nice strawman though, almost fell for it.

>>53079851

Yeah but the '11+, you save' doesn't change much and the dwarf is really good at not getting utterly buttfucked by ongoing toxins.

>>53079844
>It doesn't make a difference concerning the decisions you will make as a player
Or, you know, it does.

>>53079844
>It's the difference between "I'm LESS likely to be poisoned"
That's not what it is. It's the difference between a 55% chance to end a poison effect versus an 80% chance.

>>53058960
>Aquatic race that's good in water.
While this is often a cool idea, it never works. You can't have a player race that's based on being good in a situation where all the other player races never want to be in.

Ok, so you have an aquatic race in the party. There are three options here. One, you're on land so being aquatic is useless. Two, you're underwater so the rest of the party is useless. Three, you go on special snowflake adventures a lot, without the rest of the party, which is usually a bad idea for everyone involved.

>>53079864

And this is why that whole 'No sharp weapons' went away.

File: pixie_by_pardoart-d8e629p.jpg (549KB, 1000x1121px) Image search: [Google]

549KB, 1000x1121px

i think these things would make a neat race.
green flying squirl pixie things

>fast
>gliding
>nature
>small

>>53079900
>>53079864
It's also why specialist priests were invented in 2e.

>>53079881
>>53079875
You're still going to avoid poison because there is still that chance.
Or rather, you SHOULD be avoiding it because you're supposed to be role playing a creature with a sense of self-preservation.
Whereas a creature with flat out immunity will exploit that immunity in it's strategies.
You're immune to poison, not merely resistant. So now you can dump poisonous gas into the dungeon and pick it clean. If you were merely resistant that would not be a viable strategy because you might fail your save. It completely changes your options.

File: 3.png (70KB, 598x491px) Image search: [Google]

70KB, 598x491px

>>53078833
>Why don't actual dwarf humans have a speed penalty? Why is this exclusive to dwarves?
They do.
Have you ever seen a midget run? They have tiny legs.

>This makes the OPPOSITE of sense. Something smaller and weighs less...is HARDER to move or knock down? What?
Dwarves weigh as much as humans and are shorter, but wider. Compare knocking down a pencil standing on it's flat end to knocking down a cube.
Because they are shorter, pushing them will have less leverage as they are closer to the point of the pivot, and because they are wider, they have to be pushed further before their center of mass extends beyond their base.

>This doesn't even mean anything. Dwarves are good at resisting poison... Why? Because they are Dwarves? Why? Repeat.
Because they are naturally very tough and healthy

>That's not a dwarf, that's culture
The game assumes that your dwarf grew up in a dwarvern culture. You could have these skills if you were, perhaps, a gnome who was raised by dwarves.

>>53079890

There is the 4th option: The GM includes water in adventures.

Like a battle for a bridge, an aquatic character can easily slip through the water to the other side and flank without struggling through it in heavy gear like a human would. They can easily exploit faster mobility in a battle around a lake to strike and retreat back to where it's hard for others to follow.

This is some pretty basic GMing, situations don't occur in a pure mono-enviroment.

>>53079732
>>53079788
This is good shit. I thank you for your autism anon.

>>53073344
Not trying to discourage you, but I'm pretty sure he was referencing a specific race from doctor who.

>>53079963
>>53079890
Still, it's bad form for one character to be physically completely incompatible with the rest of the group

It's fine if they can survive indefinitely outside of water though, like lizardfolk.

>>53079932
>characters should never do anything that has a chance to kill them unless they are 100% certain of victory
Anon, you're playing somebody who willing dives into holes in the ground infested with things that want to eat them on the off chance there's some gold at the bottom of them, your character's sense of self-preservation is already fucked.

>>53079963
or a river in a cave where the players hop on rocks to cross, a monster attacks during the crossing. the player with water movement will have a good advantage in that situation, similar to a dwarf bein immune to poison mobs

>>53056347
Well classes are pretty easy, there's the weapons class, the stealth and skills class and the magic class. Then there's variation to each of those into subclasses and specializations.

For races anything goes as long as you think they are cool and fun to do.

File: 1467935625460.jpg (178KB, 680x956px) Image search: [Google]

178KB, 680x956px

>>53079999
>It's fine if they can survive indefinitely outside of water though, like lizardfolk.
thats how most people play them?

>>53056347
robots and androids

File: wesnoth.png (607KB, 800x480px) Image search: [Google]

607KB, 800x480px

>>53079890
>>53079963

Pic Related

>>53080002

Pretty much. Water is honestly pretty damn common unless the GM just doesn't think to include it.

>>53079866
>The fluff doesn't actually mean anything.
>And if the fluff doesn't mean anything, there is no reason not to be playing a human instead.
This is some weapons-grade autism here.

Frog people.

My love for frog people races started with Pathfinder's grippli. I introduced a grippli NPC that my party really took to, and he became a recurring character in the campaign. I feel like they leave a really strong impression on people: they don't come off as super special because they're not traditionally "cool", but they stick out none-the-less because they're quirky and different. I keep them around as an exotic race rather than a standard one.

Merfolk, kobolds, goblins
Also if githzerai can be jammed in there that'd be good too

>>53060621
I think he meant to respond to the skiing Vikings image. That's where that face is from.

>>53080330
What if gith are made into a type of goblin?

>>53061958
If the idea of dealing with being vulnerable and ordinary in a world filled with magic and monsters doesn't interest you, you won't be welcome at my table.

>>53080438
I guess that could work, they look similar enough in some ways. It seems weird to think of gith as tall, intelligent goblins though.

>>53080483
Hobbits, mousefolks or other small races do it better.
Why would you use human if they bring nothing that a hobbit couldn't do?

>>53082394
At no point did I ever say human. And it's not about what they bring for me so much as what they don't bring.

File: HobgoblinArmyVictory.jpg (176KB, 764x1048px) Image search: [Google]

176KB, 764x1048px

>>53082298
>tall, intelligent goblins
Not like that isn't a thing already

>>53078942
I dunno, there's some pretty dense people on /tg/

File: BaDumTssh.jpg (23KB, 480x360px) Image search: [Google]

23KB, 480x360px

>>53082697

>>53082764
Thank you, I'm here all week!
Try the lamb!

>Just have humans.
>Literally anything with magic is meant to be killed by the shit load because it isn't human.
>Humans mostly can't have magic unless they eat a fairy.
>Humans can't have magic because God figured that since they're like it, they don't need something as meaningless as magic.
>Thus other Gods have tried to give humans magic. It has never worked.

>>53082563
Good point. Gith have to be distinct from gobbos then.

Humans should be fluffed to be way more awesome than most settings have them.

In my world they were enslaved by demon worshipping elves, but one guy led them to freedom (with the help of a magic sword from space) & they promptly started kicking wholesale ass on anyone who looked at them funny.

Bland race who is just a blank slate filled by every earth culture is boring & such really hard. Give humans a soul & give not humans a culture. What if elves where more like aboriginal tribes? What if the orks are a bunch of Not!Babylonians. What if humans where to sole race on earth before the gods found them & reshaped them into the elves & dwarves & goblins, etc.

>>53083584
Fuck my autocorrect hates me

>>53083400
You could mash hobs and gith together. Githyanki and hobgoblins are both pretty militarized and both have overarching goals of total domination