MTG Magic The Gathering Ask A Judge - 「 W E D N E S D A Y W

>>53040481
When will the Ineffable One return?

>>53040481
I sacrifice a fetchland (flooded stra, for example). Am I forced to put a plains or an island into the battlefield or, even if in my deck I've some W/U lands, or I can decide to not take any?

>>53040523
Next Sunday, AD.

>>53040532
If you're ever searching a hidden zone (like your library) for a card of a stated quality (for example, "An Island or Plains card"), you can 'fail to find' even if there are cards of that quality to -be- found. If you want to crack a fetchland and find nothing, even though you have appropriate lands, you totally can.

This is why if you get Mindslavered with fetches, you should really crack them before they take over your turn and just cast free Victorious Destruction on all your fetches.

>>53040599
why is demonic tutor banned in legacy?

>>53041155
It's a very cheap, unconditional tutor, which they must feel is too strong in a low-curve format with a lot of combo decks. Compare it to the tutors that ARE okay- they're either slower (by mana cost, or by putting it on top of the library instead of into your hand), they're conditional (like Infernal Tutor), they cost life, or some combination.

"Find whatever for 1B with no hoops" is just a stronger effect than they want to have in Legacy, especially in multiples.

Couple questions.

If I exert a creature, say Glorybringer, then get an extra combat step due to Combat Celebrant or Lightning Runner, if I choose not to exert it again will it still not untap during my next untap step because of the first exert? I assume that's the case.

If I exert Combat Celebrant and Ahn-Crop Champion at the same time, will both be untapped for the second combat step or will it just be Combat Celebrant?

>>53041426
If you choose to Exert a creature, it'll fail to untap during your next untap step, assuming it's tapped. If you Exert Glorybringer, then untap it with Celebrant, then attack again, it'll still be 'locked down' because you've already Exerted it. So either Exert it again for value, or don't attack!

If you exert those two at the same time, they'll untap each other. Celebrant will untap all your other creatures besides itself and set up a new combat steep, and Ahn-Crop Champion will untap Celebrant. They'll both be untapped for the second attack.

>>53041426
Exert is just "doesn't untap in the next untap step" with a fancy name, it doesn't matter to any other tap/untap effect

I have an indestructible creature, Pariah's Shield equipped on it and a Repercussion in play. Then the creature gets hit by damage. Does the game end in a draw due to infinite loop?

>>53041195
Don't forget the most deceptively powerful part of Demonic Tutor, you don't reveal the card so you don't expose your strategy outright.

>>53041426
Not sure about the first one, but if you untap an exerted creature it'll untap as normal. Says so on the Gatherer rulings for Combat Celebrant. http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=428710

>>53041526
wrong

>>53041480

Good to know, thank you!

>>53041494
Well, it's also a "separate" thing for cards that care. It's more like "Doesn't untap during your next untap step" with extra baggage.

>>53041501
So, you WOULD take damage, but the creature takes it instead via Shield. That triggers Repercussion, which tries to hit you, but hits the creature instead, which triggers Repercussion, etc.There's no choices you can make that'd break the loop WITHIN the loop, so unless a player elects to break it externally (Disenchanting one of the pieces, bouncing the creature, etc), the game will end in a draw.

>>53041526
Afraid that's incorrect. What it says is that if the creature is untapped as your untap step begins, the Exert effect ends having done nothing, rather than carrying over. If you untap an Exerted creature, it doesn't auto-stop Exert. If it becomes tapped again before your Untap step, it won't untap.

>>53041873
A player offers to roll dice to determine the winner of a match at a pre-release. I know this is illegal and immediately call for a judge. After explaining, the judge tells me, and I quote, "it's a pre-release. Don't be a dick, do that again and I'll throw you out." He then cautions the players that you "aren't supposed to do that" and moves on.

I just wanted to bitch because this is the only place I can, and reporting to WPN will get me banned from the store. Or does JAR not apply at pre-release and no one told me?

>>53042729
Well, that's fucking stupid.

Also, how would reporting to WPN get you banned? Pretty sure it's anonymous/you can do it anonymously.

>>53042729
The JAR applies at prereleases, and your Judge was 1000% in the wrong. That's one of the few things we have to be complete and utter hard-asses about at every sanctioned event, no matter how chill and laid back it is otherwise.

You can anonymously report the issue to the WPN, but it's unlikely anything would come of it. If the store did ban you for reporting them (or has threatened to do so), that's actually much more likely to get them to act- a store telling players "if you report our rule-breaking, we'll ban you" would get their sanctioning pulled so fast their heads would spin.

At the very least, you might want to talk to the judge one on one, show them where in the JAR it says that's not okay (specifically under "Serious Problems") along with MTR 1.12 explaining that Regular REL events are covered by that document, and MTR Appendix F showing that prereleases are Regular REL. Depending on if your intent is to educate or to just tell him he fucked up and you're mad, you might also ask where in the JAR it says you can be thrown out for expecting the rules to be followed, or "being a dick". If this Judge is an actual certified Judge, I'd also recommend letting their RC know about this, either directly, or via the Judge Feedback Form. If I found out one of my L1s handled something like this, they'd get one hell of an earful.

Sorry if these seem basic,

1. If a creature reaches 0 health can I sac it? If I do this during combat does it still do damage to the other creature?

2. When I sacrifice a creature to pay for another effect does it immediately leave play? Or can my opponent respond and destroy it?

3. When exactly do cards gain text after I cast them? If I play Grand Abolisher can my opponent lightning bolt him after he comes into play but before he has text? What if the creature had indestructible?

>>53042772
>>53042829
In the only one who made this an issue, so even if it was "anonymous" they know the one person who gave a shit to report it.

When I asked the judge after the fact, he was adamant that since pre-releases are mostly played by casual players, a DQ for something they both A) don't know is illegal and B) don't know that they're dq'd if they don't instantly call a judge, would drive everyone away.

I don't want to be a dick but how can a store do things that tell new players they aren't welcome?

>>53042894
Never be sorry for asking a question. Everyone starts somewhere, and I'm here to help.

1) A creature with 0 toughness will die as soon as state-based actions are checked; there's no chance for you to sac it for value between hitting 0 toughness and death. What you can do is pre-emptively sac something you KNOW will die; for example, block a big dude with a 1/1, and sac it before damage since it'll die anyway. It won't DEAL damage either, though, so if you have a 2/2 and they have a 2/2 you either sac it for value or you trade. Also, damage doesn't reduce toughness- a 2/2 that takes 2 damage isn't a 2/0, it's a 2/2 with 2 damage marked on it.

2) If the sacrifice is a cost, your opponent cannot respond to that. By the time they have priority, the creature is dead. Examples would be Fling or Viscera Seer. If the sac is part of the EFFECT (like Heart-Piercer Manticore), they can pre-emptively kill something (because you don't pick what you'll sac until the trigger resolves), but if you have other creatures to sac you can just sac one of them. If they wait to see what you're going to sac, it's too late for them to respond.

3) There is no 'before they have text'. Grand Abolisher has that rules text in every zone, it's just that the abilities don't DO anything in those zones. They kick in the second it hits the field- there's no window between "creature has entered the battlefield" and "Static effects on that creature are in effect". It's immediate. If it has a TRIGGER (like the Gearhulks do), that can be responded to.

>>53042931
We -have- to be assholes about the dice thing. If we allow people to roll a dice to determine the winner, it's no longer a game of skill, it's gambling. That's a serious deal legally, and it's why we have to be such hard-asses about it. You don't get to pick and choose which rules you follow. If it's a Sanctioned event, you follow the policies, period.

>>53042931
>I don't want to be a dick but how can a store do things that tell new players they aren't welcome?

Best way to resolve this is to make an announcement before round 1 of events like prereleases about the (few) things that will get you DQ'd and might not be common sense for someone unfamiliar with Magic.

>>53042984

Let's say I have Zulaport Cutthroat and Viscera Seer. I sac a creature to viscera seer and put Zulaport's effect on the chain, can my opponent destroy Zulaport to prevent loss of life or does his effect stay on the chain?

>>53043393
What's a "chain"?

>>53043393
There is no chain in magic, just the stack.
You sac the creature, the zulaport triggers and its ability goes on the stack. No matter what happens to the source, the ability stays there until it resolves unless specifically countered (like with Disallow) or exiled (Time Stop /Glorious End)

What actually ended up being the wording for the rules change that made invocations legal?

>>53043508
>>53043602
I used to play the old VS System where the stack is called the chain

and thanks

>>53043151
I tack on the "Please do not use anything other than a game of magic to determine the winner of your game of magic, or I will have to DQ you" to my announcements during the last 2 rounds of PPTQs.

>>53043393
Stack, not chain. And they can destroy Cutthroat, but it does fuck-all. Abilities on the stack exist independently of their sources. Killing the source won't stop the ability on the stack any more than killing a soldier stops the grenade he ALREADY threw.

>>53043611
Removing the 'white or black border' thing and just changing it to "nonsilver", I think.

>>53043714
>Removing the 'white or black border' thing and just changing it to "nonsilver", I think.

Ah, because all the collector's edition cards have a nonlegal back on them anyway right?

>>53043750
Right.

>>53042984
Sorry to be a butt, but the store TO decided to spit his two cents in with a hypothetical corner case situation and insists that it be covered.

>Regular REL Draft with rare redraft prizes
>Player A is experienced and has a good pool
>Player B is new but has a godly pool that only an idiot could lose with
>Player C is best friends with player A and has shit for a deck.

>Players B and C meet in the event. Player C offers an illegal way to determine the winner. Player A calls a judge, both B and C are disqualified. Player A no longer has anything to fear, wins the pod and gets all of player B's money rares.

Like I said, corner case as fuck. But how do you keep new player B from getting fucked by the rules?

>>53045858
By telling people before the event that offering/accepting incentives for a match result will result in a DQ, and that you should call for the judge if that happens.

So Player C offers something, Player B goes "JUDGE", Player C takes a trip to Dairy Queen.

If an LGS owner suspects players of actually trying something like this, they have the easy out of "GTFO my store, don't come back".

>>53045858
>With rare redraft prizes
The answer is "tell the TO rare redrafts are stupid and unenforcable, and to actually provide prizes for his drafts".

And that depends. If A snap-called me right away, I'm not punishing B at all, because I have no way of telling that he wouldn't have called me right away because A beat him to it. If A found out about it afterwards, even if B decided "No, let's not do that", I'd have to DQ them both.

That said, "DQ a player" absolutely never means "take their cards". You have no recourse, either legal or from Wizards, to force the players to surrender their pools for the redraft. They can walk right out the door with their cards and suffer no repercussions besides you personally banning them from your store.

Don't. Do. Redrafts.

>>53045956
And this is why Kentucky is a fucked up place for magic. Since the cards are the prize, they belong to the store until the end of the event - the same as chips on the table in a poker tournament. You're not allowed to "cash out" mid-event because the money in front of you isn't yours. It's a very loose interpretation of the law but it holds for the cops.

>>53040481
So lets say I have two 4/4 zombies on the board and a lord of the accursed. If my opponent casts sweltering suns does only my lord die? or do the zombies lose their 1/1 boost from him and die from suns as well.

Does Humility in any way influence a creature's color, legendary status or commander-ness in EDH?

>>53047132
Nope. Commander-ness is tied to the physical card. Humility doesn't affect card types. Color is normally determined by mana cost or color indicator, but if there's a characteristic-defining ability that modifies color it still applies before Humility takes that ability away.

>>53046413
Suns resolves, and deals three to each creature. That will stay marked on them until the next cleanup step. Lord of the Accursed is then destroyed by state-based actions (it has 3 tougness and 3 damage marked on it). Since an SBA happened, SBAs will be checked again to see if anything changed. You now have two 3/3s with 3 damage marked on them, and they're destroyed as well. SBAs are checked again, see that nothing else need to happen, and the active player receives priority.

>>53047233
What about Humility and Eldrazi cards with Devoid, such as Eldrazi Skyspawner? Will Humility turn it into a blue creature? Does it change in any way depending on whether Humility or Skyspawner came into play first?

>>53047301
Devoid is a characteristic-defining ability, so it applies before Humilty takes it away and makes the creature colorless.

In which thread do people talk about limited?

>>53046013
>It's a very loose interpretation of the law but it holds for the cops.
Tell the cops you bought the packs with your money. The cards are legally yours.

>>53047405
None. tg for some reason doesn't like limiteds and any limited thread is either
1. filled with stories of muh cards with improbable pools,
2. filled with complaints about muh luck,
or
3. immediately drowned away because noone replied.

>>53046013
>Since the cards are the prize, they belong to the store until the end of the event
That's not correct, though. If it's a sanctioned event, then by Wizards' own rules, the cards are -your property- the moment they are handed to you.

>>53046413
Your Lord will die, because it's a 3/3 that has 3 damage marked on it. After it dies, SBAs are checked again and see your Zombies are now 3/3s with 3 damage marked on them, and kill those too.

>>53047132
All Humility does is blank abilities and set P/T to 1/1. It doesn't change color or types. "Commander-ness" is an inherent property of the card itself and cannot in any way be removed.

>>53047301
Devoid works in layer 5, which is before Humility takes it away in layer 6. It'll still be colorless.

>>53047327
It is a CDA, but that's not why it applies first.

>>53047405
If there isn't one, I guess you could make a Limited thread!

>>53047724
And that per the rules of the sanctioning body through which the tournament is run, the cards are your property.

MTR Section 2.10, Dropping From A Tournament:

"Players who drop during limited tournaments own the cards that they correctly have in their possession at that time. This includes any unopened or partially drafted boosters."

If you krosan grip wheel of sun and moon where does grip go? Same with nature's claim?

>>53049739
Assuming the Wheel is enchanting you, the Wheel would go to the bottom of your library (because the replacement effect exists as it's leaving the battlefield), and the spell that destroyed it would go to the graveyard as normal, because by then the Wheel is destroyed and the replacement effect no longer exists.

>>53049867
Right. The same reason RIP exiles itself and the grip hits yard? Thanks

I run bane of the living in my commander deck cause I think it's pretty cool but the more I look at it the more it desist make sense. When you unmorph it as a special action and it's turned face and it's ability fires off, how does the card know where to pull X from because isn't by the time it flippers that number has no meaning? Or something

>>53049938
Right. The replacement effect exists as RIP is leaving the field, so it eats itself, but that effect is gone as Grip goes to the bin.

This is also why Doom Blade on a Dryad Militant hits the graveyard, but Shock on a Dryad Militant hits exile.

how would the damage work with Gisela, Blade of Goldnight work with Double strike?

If my store is running a no banlist legacy event and i want to run conspiracys, can i run more than four of each?

I've been reading that thing about collusion in tournaments and DQs carefully.
But I've seen many times top players choosing to call a game a draw instead of playing, to be sure they were both in the final rounds or whatever. Is that actually illegal? How is it different from rolling a die from the rules point of view?

>>53050047
Nope! The first step of turning a morph creature face-up is to show all players what the morph cost "would be" if the card were face up, and then pay it. So you show everyone the cost would be XBB, and declare a value for X, plugging that number into Bane of the Living everywhere the X used to be.

>>53050128
About what you'd expect. Let's say you have Sela out, and a Runeclaw Bear with a Fireshrieker, which goes unblocked. In the first Damage Step, it'll assign 2 damage to the defending player, and as that damage happens, Sela turns it into 4. Then the same thing happens in the second Damage Step; end result, 8 damage.

>>53050187
Technically you can't run any, because rule 313.1 says "Conspiracy cards are used only in Limited Play... Conspiracy cards aren't used in constructed play".

They aren't banned, they're just flat not legal.

>>53050242
Bribery/Collusion is when an incentive is offered for a result, or vice versa. If it's in both players' best interests to draw, and they mutually agree to do so based on that fact, nothing illegal has happened. It's when you try to coerce someone (IE, I'll scoop to you for half the packs, or "Scoop to me and I'll give you 50 dollars") that it becomes a problem.

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does this go infinite?

>>53051215
It does not. Whatever Aetherplasm puts out is never declared as a blocker, it's just put onto the field blocking the creature. As such, if you were to put out another Aetherplasm (or the SAME Aetherplasm), it wouldn't trigger, because it was never declared as a blocker.

Same reason putting in creatures via Kaalia won't trigger "When ~ attacks" triggers.

>>53040481
Are you Italian?

>>53051443
Nope!

>>53043750
What about Gold Border ones?

>>53051467
Why do you have that particular card as thread image everytime?

(Sorry if you answered this before)

>>53051470
All gold-bordered cards either have a non-standard Magic back, or squared corners, which render them illegal anyway.

>>53051492
It comes up a lot, and don't be sorry!

When I started doing this, I just used a new image every time- always one with "Judge" or "Rule" or "Magic" in the name. I very quickly ran out of cards, and decided that instead of just cycling through the same handful of random cards, I'd go with the most recently-used one for every thread. It was largely influenced by Generals on /v/ (before /vg/ split off) and Quests here (before they split off) always using the same image so people would instantly recognize it in the catalog or while scrolling.

It just so happens that Scherzo Magico was the most recently used card, so that's what I've stuck with for years now.

At the amonkhet prerelease, a player casts a spell at precombat main, tapping four lands to cast a three mana spell. Post combat main, he is looking for a black source to cast a black spell, and one of those four tapped lands is his only black source. The player claims "I never intended to tap it so it was never tapped."

I called a judge, and another player chimed in something about how he doesn't like the way regular REL handles this sort of thing. I don't recall if I ever did get a ruling on that situation. It didn't matter in the end, but I would like some insight.

SECOND QUESTION

Are there any policies you personally don't 100% agree with in the rules, JAR, MTR, or IPG?

Are full altered art cards playable in tournaments? Is there some kind of threshold you must respect for modifications?
When a card can be defined "unplayable" in tournament play (Considering modifications and state of the card)
If a player is discovered with an unplayable card but he can find a replacement right away, can he get away with it to switch it immediately in the deck if a game is at play and the card was revealed anyway?

>>53051770
The Land was tapped, the black mana got depleted when he switched phase I guess, so he cannot start to cry if he made a poor decision before, it happens.

>>53051770
"The way Regular REL handles this" would basically be "tough shit". I'm not going to rewind through a combat phase because you tapped wrong.

I'm not a big fan of how harsh we have to be with Improperly Determining. I understand why we have to be so harsh, but it always makes me feel awful when I have to DQ someone who had zero malicious intent.

>>53051832
Alters are legal, so long as you don't obstruct the name or mana cost in any way, the art itself remains "recognizable", you can't tell the altered cards apart from unaltered ones without looking at the face, and the alteration does not include anything inappropriate, or contain excessive strategic advice. All alter legality is basically up to the Head Judge of a tournament, so what flies at one might not fly at another.

If a player has a card that's altered to the point it isn't okay, they'll be penalized and given a reasonable amount of time to secure a replacement. If they cannot (or are unwilling to), they'll replace it with a basic land of their choosing and their decklist will be updated to reflect the change.

>>53051896
Have you ever made custom cards, gA?

>>53052002
I haven't. I don't have a knack for design, and any interest I had in it was burned out years ago when I used to try to "correct" the customs posted here.

I spent a month trying to get someone to understand that they shouldn't try to translate Yugioh cards to Magic cards directly, and that "the primary color in the card's art" should not be the Magic color it was.

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>>53051896
So if a card is badly damaged, as long as you can see the name and mana cost it's ok.

What about pic related? (Don't judge me, I was young, and naive)

>>53052034
What were the weirdest tokens you ever witnessed to be used by players?
Where you able to find someone that was so cocky that he tried to run some fanmade cards into a deck hoping that nobody would notice and would just consider it to be a "niche" card, or even worse, someone that right out printed a fake hoping to don't get caught?

>>53052186
"Damaged" is not going to be something that cares about the name and mana cost, usually. The reason for that line is so people can't do an "alter" that turns a Spellwild Ouphe into a Tarmogoyf by hiding the name.

For a DAMAGED card, basically all I'm going to go off of is "can I tell it apart from your other cards without looking at the face?", which is usually going to be determined by if it's clearly warped, or if it's creased so badly that it makes the sleeve sag, or if i can tell the back/edges apart from your other cards (if using unsleeved cards, which you should not). The rules for alters don't apply to damaged cards, we just use common sense.

The weirdest tokens I've seen were probably a bunch of Justin Bieber trading cards, each of which had a creature type and a P/T box drawn onto them in Sharpie. That, or the usual "Cards from other TCGs" like Pokemon, Yugioh, and the like.

I've never seen someone genuinely attempt to pass off a custom card as real.

>>53047778
>It is a CDA, but that's not why it applies first.
Thanks.

I thought CDAs were always applied first if they share a layer with something else? Or is it both here?

>>53052662
You do apply CDAs in a layer before other effects, but Devoid and Humility work in different layers, so that doesn't matter.

>>53052748
Awesome. Good to know.

If I use Path to Exile to get rid of my opponent's Leonin Arbiter and he can't pay to ignore its ability, does he get to search out a basic land?

>>53053653
I would assume it actually gets exiled before they search and wouldn't effect the search for land.

I have Metallurgic Summonings out, and Cast a Yahenni's Expertise.
Metallurgic Summonings triggers and resolves giving me a 4/4 token.
Yahenni's Expertise resolves, giving everything -3/-3, and I choose to cast a Catalog with its second clause, triggering Metallurgic Summonings.
I resolve Catalog, drawing 2 and discarding Fiery Temper, triggering madness.
Now that YE is done resolving, I choose how to stack the madness and MS triggers. I put MS above madness, getting a 3/3, and then choose to cast FT for its madness cost.
This triggers MS again, giving me a 3/3 token. Then FT resolves, dealing 3 damage to its target.
In the end I have a 4/4 with -3/-3 until EOT and 2 3/3's.

Do I have all of that (mostly) correct?

>>53054824
That's exactly correct as far as I can track it.