Would Napoleonic warfare even be possible in a fantasy setting?

I don't know, maybe.

>>53007202
Depends on whether or not your army has some mages warding against AoE spells or not.

>>53007202
I mean, if there are magic users in combat they're probably being used like mobile artillery, so other than that things could be just the same.

>>53007265
>they're probably being used like mobile artillery

I mean, sort of? At least in D&D, though, a wizard can't cast as many spells per day as a canon could fire shots in a battle.

I mean, for example, in the late 1770s it was said that a 24-pounder could fire 90 to 100 shots a day in Summer, or 60 to 75 in Winter. The French - being the French and so VERY good at blowing shit up when they want to be - were often able to far exceed this, with 150 shots per day. Smaller guns could be fired even more rapidly.

And the ranges are much better than D&D wizards - half a mile or further.

Given the average 3d6 roll, a bit less than 50% of the population is capable of learning level 1 spells. Since a level 1 human wizard is technically possible, you could see that about 50% of the population is capable of casting spells. Better yet, say just 1/4 of them have Int 13 or better (enough to learn Fireball). You could easily send these young apprentices out in groups of 4 or 5 to hunt for small groups of goblins or kobolds to kill with magic missile or just cast Sleep then slit their throats with daggers. These apprentices will quickly level up to level 4 or 5, and you would have an army of probably ten percent spellcasters. They could spread out using invisibility and would just spam fireball at wherever they could see, and anyone who *wasn't" a spellcaster would be quickly wiped out. They could also cast Fly and just glide over the battlefield firing fireballs down on the rest of the army.

Foot soldiers would be literally irrelevant. They would be phased out quickly and replaced by armies of entirely wizards.

>>53007371
You've got a point, they'd probably be better suited to either AoE buff/debuff, using divination spells to aid commanders, and distracting/misinforming the enemy with illusions.

>>53007202
>Wouldn't long lines of people with guns not function against magic users?
Magical guns. Powered by cannibalized bits of dead wizards.

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>>53007202
Are you talking about a fantasy setting or a D&D quadratic wizards setting?

NOTHING is viable except fucking wizards in D&D.
If you're not talking about D&D, of course it's possible, but IT DEPENDS ON THE SETTING

>>53007433
>>53007202
>the people must murder more and more wizards to power the gears of revolution
brutal

>Wouldn't long lines of people with guns not function against magic users?

If it works against cannons loaded with shrapnel, it will work against wizards as well. By the way, the whole point of the line is not to make you make less vulnerable, but to allow you to mass your unit's firepower.

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>>53007202
>This discussion again.

Damnit people.
Truthfully it all depends on the enemy forces.

>>53007265
>>53007371

The Hobgoblins in 5e study in the school of the Devastator, which is a Secret University where the magically apt hobgoblins are brought after being kidnapped as children.
The Devastators are well oiled squads or mobile and sneaky artillery, with literally zero anything that is not blowing shit up.

>>53007202

Why on Earth does this pic make my penis harder than plascrete?

>>53007202
Gun lines, partially, were used to counter artillery (cannons), since it limited the number of casualties inflicted by the bouncing cannon shot. Since the infantry "square" was used to counter calvary, there would be a game of cat and mouse with the calvary trying to trick the infantry into "squaring up" so that the cannons would be at their most effective or forcing the infantry into lines so that the calvary could more easily overrun the position.

As >>53007265 conjectured, Blaster Mages serving the same role that cannons used while Generalist Mages would serve support roles as >>53007432 suggested.

>>53007577
Because you are Virt?

>>53007394
>Foot soldiers would be literally irrelevant. They would be phased out quickly and replaced by armies of entirely wizards.

Eh, yes and no. Quantity has a quality all of its own, and the wizarding population is likely to be small - anyone can serve in the army (that's the entire point of basic training, which has a success rate of better than 90%) but only 1/4th of the people pass muster to serve in your hypothetical wizard marines.

An army is going to be better off by using combined arms, as it were - every platoon has a wizard or two (and clerics, for that matter) as part of it, but the bulk of a platoon is still going to be made up of non-magical folk.

>>53007202
>Would medieval warfare even be possible in a fantasy setting?
>Wouldn't long lines of people with bows or pikes not function against magic users?

You're not even trying.

>>53007866
Well if the world even a little D&D like, even without completely bonkers wizards, high level heroes gonna wreck armies. They are not completely untouchable but a group of fighters can go through almost anything that Napoleonic time armies can through at them like a hot knife through butter.

>>53007829
That's a human female, Anon.
Virt's thing is with elves.

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>>53007202
Why don't we ask the magic users that exist in real life what they objecticaly can and can't do?

>>53008875
*objectively
too mad to type straight

>>53008789
High level heroes are rare, though. If we go to 3.5, which was the only one to ever really publish rules for how to generate the exact population of a given D&D settlement and all their classes, then around 93% or so of the population of a typical D&D planet is level 1. Of the 7% that are higher, half of them are level 2, and so on in that fashion, with anyone above level 6 or so being vanishingly rare. Still present in any one given city of appreciable size, but not nearly enough to build an army or so.

>>53007202
magic takes years to master.
Bows likewise take a lifetime
guns that months to produce and become adequate with
there is a reason why one out stripped the other
if crossbows are available then so are guns.
line troops might not be viable, then again if formations of pike are viable then so are guns and more so.
likely you'll end up with those spanish pike and shotte formations and then when you hit rifles then you'll Napoleonics

check out "mr norrell and jonathan strange" for ideas for magic during napoleonic area..It's literally about that.

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>>53007202
It could be the other way round: that the introduction of gunpowder makes magic weaker. Or that it is its own kind of magic. Which I believe is how the gunpowder revolution starts under the Elf Emperor Mordred in Flintloque/Slaughterloo.

>>53007866

>Wizard marines

More like wizard aeronauts. With flight, they would be capable of a level of mobility not to be seen for hundreds of years otherwise, and combined with fireball and they can be used as bombers, with anti-wizard wizards being fighters.

>>53008789

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chainmail_(game)

A group of fighters were originally supposed to /represent/ a field officer of a Napoleonic time army.

>>53007202

Sure, just don't play DnD. Most fantasy settings don't make the fucking stupid mistake of making becoming a wizard exactly as difficult as learning to swing a sword good, AND have no downside to its use AND let it do basically anything far beyond the ability of nonmagical folk to keep up.

In pretty much any other setting, magic is either so rare and difficult as to be only rarely encountered, so costly that using it on the level of a war will ruin you, or simply not strong enough to impact the war in the first place beyond a few specific tricks.

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>>53007202
Everone always assumes that magic would be in competition with scientific progress, but there's no reason the two can't work together.

>>53007202
Depends on the setting.

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>>53007202
This picture will never not make me mad. If you're going to make fap bait at least have it be tactically sound. Battlefield executions of that kind does nothing but show you off as a pompous cowardly prick in front of your own army, wastes bullets that would be better served shooting actual threats, and encourages enemy forces to not surrender as they'll be under the impression you'll just kill them anyway.

And on top of that, a royal or officer that looks like that would work much better as a hostage to serve as leverage against your foe or as a wife to sell off to a neighboring kingdom for financial and political gain.

0/10, would report executing officer to higher authorities.

>>53012094

Because its an easy conflict to set up thematically. Science vs mysticism, etc etc.

The problem is that if magic is reproduceable, its science. That's just how science works. Take cold magic, enchant some metal plates to always be chilled, invent the refrigerator thousands of years ahead of time. Repeat for a dozen other inventions.

Once you start blending magic and science, you only have a few centuries before you end up with something that looks a hell of a lot like a science fiction setting, everything just has harder to pronounce names and the aesthetic is weird.

Which seems cool when you think you are, like, totally the first person to ever have this idea ohmygod you are so SMART. But its actually really fucking boring, because by combining the powers of magic with the reliability of technology, you sort of don't really have any problem you can't solve anymore. Stories and conflicts thrive on limitations. If I can just make a pot that always is full of delicious food, and its not that hard to make, now the very concept of farming ceases to exist. Farming is replaced with different kinds of food production magic. Repeat with anything and everything that can be made by magic, and BOY doesn't this sound a lot like star trek now?

>>53009733
Came here to say this. Book is good, know nothing about the show.

>>53012226

You know whats even worse? Its a small, clearly not very powerful pistol being aimed at the back of someone still wearing a metal breastplate. There are good odds she would survive the shot, which just makes the guy look even MORE incompetent.

And that's before you get into the clearly fetishy setup of this beautiful woman getting 'taught her lesson' by big strong men. Men who are, conspicuously, wearing military uniforms that DON'T include armor.

So we are presented a situation where the following is true:

> firearms are a thing, which makes the physical strength of the user largely irrelevant as long as you are not too weak to aim a gun
> the side not wearing armor that was effective against early firearms won, and the side wearing armor lost

At that point, the fact that she's a woman shouldn't matter. In fact, based purely on what we can see here in the picture, she is the one better prepared for this fight.

>>53012356

The show is a well done adaptation of the book. It just doesn't have time to dwell on all of the little details, because its only 6 episodes and you can't do footnotes that sprawl 3 pages on TV.

>>53012360
With regards to firearms, mobility and staying out of sight is better than armor. There is more to warfare than simply carrying a weapon.

With regards to the execution, that armor's not going to be thick enough or angled well enough to stop the bullet. What's more likely to save her life is it hitting her spine, shattering both it and the bullet and perhaps buying her a bit of time at the cost of ever moving most of her body again. We don't know enough to know if killing her is a good idea or not. If she is perceived as evil, then her execution would be well received by the firer's supporters.

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>>53012356

Show is solid. I didn't even know it was a book till someone pointed it out to me. It comes across as a really good:

>Sorcerers vs. Wizards : The Mini-Series

Had a lot of fun with it. Would recommend. Is the book good too?

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>>53012651

I dunno. It doesn't look much thinner than the armor Ned Kelly made from scrap, and its going up against hundreds of years less sophisticated firearms tech.

I'm not saying she'd be unharmed at that distance, just that it's less likely to be lethal than if he just shot her somewhere else like he had a functioning brain. Or even just took off the armor first.

>>53013067
>>53012651
>>53012360
I'd argue that, given the apparent shape of the armor and the way the executioner is hold the gun, it's entirely likely that he's aiming just above where the armor protects, which could very well mean the bullet will penetrate and, assuming it doesn't hit ribs, bounce back off the frontal armor back into her abdomen. Of course, that's assuming the bullet would have sufficient velocity, but even the the bullet might not kill her outright. Having a prisoner slumped on the ground crying as she coughs up blood would be even worse for morale, assuming that

A) The army we're dealing with isn't completely evil

or

B) The situation isn't like that of the French Revolution, where people effectively became animalistic in terms of who gets executed how

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>>53007202
>Wouldn't long lines of people with guns not function against magic users?

good thing they had skirmishers too...

>mfw will never be a jager capping enemy wizards with my buddies.

>>53007202
>Not function against magic users?
What the fuck are you talking about? If I put shotte through a magician's torso, he dies. If I put shotte through a mundane man's torso, he dies.
>Combat magic
What the fuck is that? Magic is a scholarly and esoteric study that's far too inefficient to have ever seen mainstream combat use. Same reason why we don't have geneticists on the front lines.

>>53012226

It happens all the time in the Middle East and Japan did it enough times to warrant bombing them into rubble.

>>53007202
>Would Napoleonic warfare even be possible in a fantasy setting
Yes, please see the following on how, respectively, Wizards and Dragons might fit nicely into Napoleonic warfare.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Strange_%26_Mr_Norrell
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temeraire_(series)

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Depends on the wizards.

Dragonlance pretty much put spell casters as high power, however casting was exceedingly stressful on the body, and eventually they would exhaust themselves. Its takes many years to train a good wizard. It takes a couple months of blaming bad crops on magic users before the local militia is surrounding the tower with torches.

Long story short, the wizards in dragon lance just decided to blow up the towers and fuck off.

>>53007577
I think it's because it's a powerful woman in an honorable uniform crying like a little girl and about to be executed.

It's the ultimate power removal.

>>53007202
If wizards had the same spells then war would look different. Napoleonic style warfare is stipl simple in a low magic setting. Or even more grim styled. Magic is used for vague or incredibly specific divination or maybe it can be used for subterfuge or to influence minds

>>53007202
Imo guns are easy to make, learn to use, and are effective. in a war setting with magic and such involved I think small unit tactics would quickly be developed and the people who could use magic would be taught only how to counter other magic or research would go into how to generate anti magic fields. and if guns exist then so do cannons, and cannons have a far greater range than magic users use (as far as D&D is concerned at least. a competent general could easily have as much chance to win with just guns, pikes and swords against an army with magic in it. and who's to say there won't be magitek

>>53007202
take the Obsidian route. Magical shields are ubiquitous, but they can't stop guns. Suddenly guns dominate the battlefield.

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>>53015643

I'm more of the opinion that this girl's body could start a revolution.

Let me eat her cake.

I'll powder her primer.

And make her lose it like Waterloo.

I could go on.

>>53014752
They have that show on netflix. It was very captivating and could easily be tranferred to simple spells or setpiece magical events. Ot also highlights an interesting divide between a wizard and a sorcerer. Someone obsessesed with magic between the brittle pages of dusty tomes and one who wishes to delve into the blackened depths of the sea of magic to find its treasures hidden in the depths

>>53015843
he's about to blow a new hole in that body

>>53007202
I think the only real problem that would prevent "Napoleonic" warfare would be that a revolution is entirely unviable. In reality all humans are more or less equal, with nobility being entirely arbitrary. In a fantasy world where powerful magical bloodlines exist, the nobility would be justified in its existence even after the collapse of the feudal system and rise of centralization.

>>53015643
>It's the ultimate power removal.
And that's why it disgusts me. It reveals what she really is behind all the pomp and circumstance: a spoiled fuckhole.

>>53007202
Depends on how the setting handles magic, pure and simple.

The more common magical abilities are, and the more potent they are, the more redundant conventional weapons becomes.

For example, say you take your 2nd/3rd edition D&D setting. For the most part, yeah, Napoleonic Warfare is possible, because warfare is a matter of the masses and most wizards/sorcerers are low level.

There are wizards strong enough to cast Immunity to Normal Missiles (which, in 2e at least, did make you immune to bullets) and cast huge explosive spells, but these guys are rare and are essentially armies in their own right.

They're not out on the battlefield, they're the people everyone else is carefully tiptoeing around so as to avoid pissing them off. You can wage all the war you like with normal soldiers, but irritate the epic wizard-kings, and you're gonna burn.

>>53007518
This.

There is settings where humans with swords and spears genocide races of technologically advanced wizards with nothing but said swords, buttload of people, a demigod, 12 ubermensch and magical zyklon b.

>>53016283
Depends if you go bloodline magic or book magic. Gives me ideas for my worldbuilding. Maybe the elven kingdom uses books and knowlede for their magic while the human/dwarven kingdom is more clerical but can employ a group of more neutral humans who have sorceror bloodlines for their needs

>>53012785
>bard takes a level in druid.gif

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>>53009426
>if crossbows are available then so are guns.
Guns replaced crossbows as the armor piercing direct fire option. Crossbows replaced slings for the same. Cannons replaced bows for indirect fire. Motorcycle gangs replaced cavalry for riding across the battlefield looking like hoodlums. Motorcycle gangs were later replaced with scooter gangs.

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>>53016648
>tfw you'll never get the chance to ride a military scooter.

>>53016379
eh?

>>53007202
Brian Mclellan's 'Powder Mage' series is literally about Napoleonic revolution in a fantasy setting.

They kill all the wizards first.

Also, there are gun wizards.

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>>53007202
No one could muster the taxes necessary to make the napoleonic strategies viable.

See,
Brewer, The Sinews of Power.
Nye, War, Wine, and Taxes.
Mathias and O'Brien, 1976. "Taxation in England and France 1715-1810" J. of European Econ. History
O’Brien, 1988. “The Political Economy of British Taxation, 1660-1815” Economic History Review.
Besley & Persson, 2010, "State Capacity, Conflict, and Development," Econometrica
Dincecco & Prado, 2012, "Warfare, Fiscal Capacity and Performance," Journal of Econ Growth

Brewer book is pic related, more incoming.

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>>53016856

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>>53016873

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>>53016889

>>53013067
>whole regiment of imported convicts
>hardened criminals made harder by being shipped to New South Wales (God have mercy on those who face the ones from Van Dieman's Land)
>the all duel wield cavalry pistols or carbines
>All armoured like ol' Ned here
>Motto is "Fight me cunt"

I need this.

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>>53016893
Long story short, the army that you field is entirely dependent upon the capacity of your bureaucracy to not fuck up tax collection, which, because of principal agent problems, is actually really hard to do.

Even though gunpowder was around for a long time and there were troops that used it, it wasn't until the state could muster enough people in one place that the massive tactics became possible. And the only way they could muster so many was through a powerful, competent bureaucracy.

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>>53007202
Depends on the fantasy, but this is a good example of it done right.

Basic conceit:
>there be dragons

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>>53007202
Of course.

I wouldn't waste my wizards in battle though. Warfare is so much more than shooting.

Any type of magic that let you see the battle from above like in games would invalidate Cannae. A surprise flanking would be possible, but require a lot of skill, speed or an attached mage casting invisibility focused through the company's standard banner-staff.

Imagine telepathy or similar magic. A commander could dictate orders beyond line of sight and runner delay. The sort of genius and discipline needed to march an army divided into several columns would become trivial.

I have many cannons with mile-long reach and warm bodies to dispose of. Wizards are usually few and valuable in a setting.

I don't want to spy the enemy with divination. I want to see what my subjects failed to account into their taxes. Even death won't save them from paying if one has necromancy. Raising undead to fight? Bah! I will kill prisioners and turn their corpses into perpetual motion engines, engineering laborers and railcart pushers. It isn't slavery if they don't have a soul.

>>53017033

Industrialized necromancy is a horrifying thing to behold.

>>53016283

If the people are angry enough, they don't care that the magicians are better than them. If anything, that will only harden their resolve as they can claim that the magicians are inhuman X-men style and then procede to outlaw them and force them into hiding, severely dampering their quality of life in the process.

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>>53017084
Some said the same of the Industrial Revolution. I say it is better to exploit the dead than the living.

>>53007577
Seriously? I find it uncomfortable and unsettling. Like you I guess

>>53009733
Reading it at the moment, can recommend so far.
Literally about magicians during the Napoleonic wars.

>>53007202
>stop it boner!

>>53007202
DEPENDS
ON
THE
SETTING

>>53012226
It's clearly a public execution in a victory celebration. They're throwing petals around and the executing official is clean and well dressed.

The girl is abused and battered, but that's not unheard of. Prisoners, especially leadership were often dragged around in a parade before their execution. See the Romans.

She may be, no, likely is a part of the royal family or ruling class. Look at how well kept she is and how frail her body. Yet she wears a golden, ornate armor, that is nevertheless completely impractical. (exposed belly, shaped breasts)

This may be a French or Russian revolution style eradication of the royal family. In which case diplomacy is irrelevant and morale is helped by such an execution.

>>53007202
Lines of dudes with guns, even primitive ones, will be more effective against magic users than lines of dudes with swords and bows and shit, and the latter are all over the place in fantasy, so why the fuck not?

>>53018613
>This may be a French or Russian revolution style eradication of the royal family
That's what disgusts me. The French weren't people during the FR, they were animals. The Russian revolution was just as bad for different reasons.

>>53018832
Sounds like something a monarchist would say.

You aren't a monarchist, Anon, are you?

>>53018894
Don't act like the title 'Reign of Terror' was unjustified.

>>53016283
>And that's why it disgusts me. It reveals what she really is behind all the pomp and circumstance: a spoiled fuckhole.

You know, sometimes I find great lines on /tg/. On other occasions, I deeply wonder at the fate of this board's collective unconscious.

>>53007577
Humiliation, comeuppance, submission, defeat. All very sexy things my friend

>>53012226
Wait, how does it make him look like a pompous cowardly prick? What's the difference between this and putting someone on a firing line with no blindfold?

>>53018894
Britbong here.
Our current system means we Jew the Royal family out of about 95% of their income, while the properties they own remain independent of Big Corp and always have incredibly reasonable prices by paying them a Stripend each year while all the rent from their properties goes to the Government in turn.
They're basically a non-profit organization by this point.
That's a hell of a lot better than getting price gouged by someone that's going to see the money they make. If we did that shit to the 100 richest families in the world then can you even comprehend how much wealth it'd free up?

>>53018966
Yes, I agree my fellow revolutionary! We need to free ourselves by offloading our shackles of oppression on those who choked us with them for too long!

>>53018989
Liberté, égalité, fraternité! Viva!

>>53007202
Wizards generally aren't main combat forces, or large portions of the population. The range of wizard spells in your system of choice will probably play the largest role in determining how much wizards give a shit about guns, more so than the power level of the wizard, though that of course plays a huge role as well.
The only wizard which invalidates a musket line is a hyper prepared /tg/ styled d&d wizard of naturally the perfect level for all of the spells needed to invalidate them. Or on a more general note a wizard from a system or setting where any other archetype would also invalidate the musket line (such as in a super's game, which incidentally if you've never played historic fantasy supers, you're missing out).

I generally play savage worlds, and considering it absorbed deadlands, and contains a myriad setting which mix magic/psychic powers with guns without an issue, I don't see why it wouldn't work. Just use kane or rippers as a base.

>>53013067

Kelly's armour was made from farmer's steel ploughs. It weighed 44 kilograms (97 pounds in burger-units). There's no fucking way a girl like that is wearing a 44kg steel breastplate.

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>>53016665

Maybe there's some of these still floating around in Russia. I mean hell, they found some F-17's in Afghanistan, and the Syrians are fighting with all sorts of shit from WW1 and WW2.

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>>53018989
>>53019029
Shut up you fucking French. Bunch of idiots with cannons is what you are.

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>>53007202
>Prussian orcs
>Able to take a volley of shots and keep on marching
>Close with Pistol and sabre

>>53018966

You enjoy that current nice setup because you had your very own revolutionary wars too. It's just that at the end of it all, you ended up with a constitutional monarchy that was beholden to the state, not the other way around.

Russia had the Tsars who were autocrats in every sense of the word. France had rulers who personified the idea of absolutism. It's small wonder that their respective populations, when they did rise up, did so in unbelievably bloody ways. It's not to say they were justified in killing thousands or millions of people, just an explanation as to why they felt so strongly.

>>53007202

It all comes down to the power of the magic users. Warfare is all about the basic infantry unit - without your most basic infantry, you can't take, hold or challenge territory, you can't take objectives, you can't do much except skirmish. Support items like artillery, cavalry or, presumably, magic users, are only there to support the infantry and help them to defeat the other sides infantry. Thats pretty much what you can boil all wars down to - helping your infantry defeat the enemies infantry (and stopping your enemy from producing more infantry, presumably).

At certain points in history, support technology makes a leap, and it changes warfare. The next infantry revolution after the napoleonic wars probably comes in the Franco-Prussian war - where repeating arms and machine guns mean that its no longer possible to deploy infantry in formation.

Hence, the power of wizards would have to be theoretically equal to the power of machine guns in order to make napoleonic warfare impossible - if magic users can just levitate every stone within a half mile radius and slam it into an enemy formation with no effort, or stand on a hill and throw insanely destructive fireballs without fireballs, or there was no feasible method of magically limiting the effects of the enemy magic users, napoleonic warfare is impossible, infantry would simply adapt and, presumably, hide in trenches.

If, however, magic use is insanely taxing on the user, or is rare enough that its limited to a few individuals in a generation, or it can be effectively countered, napoleonic warfare is possible.

>>53019110
Actually our 'revolution' came in the form of the Magna Carta, an agreement between an unpopular King and a group of rebel Barons.
Not, very specifically, from the rise of the Common Man against the state.

If you're talking about the English Civil War that was a matter of a radical against an idiot, but I can understand where you're coming from. As for the Ruskies and Frogs, I can dig it, the more you step on someone the harder they'll push back when they rise up.
But saying that Robespierre and the Scooby Gang were anything but a bunch of ideologues that didn't comprehend the fire he was sticking his dick in is a foolish concept.
Not to sound like an elitist but when the Common Man is forced to grab his knife and start slitting throats, it never goes as well as when the Upper Class Cunts do something that benefits everyone peacefully.

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>>53018832
>The French weren't people during the FR, they were animals.
Where do I even begin...
How about 1789, when the French king was dragged out into the streets and... no wait, that didn't happen. The French occupied the Bastille, armed themselves, basically said "we want a constitution or shit will go down" and they got a constitution. An excellent constitution by the way, which preserved the authority of the king. It did abolish the nobility, but only in as far as privileges were abolished and noble titles were no longer acknowledged by the state. It was not like in Russia, where the Romanovs were actually butchered on sight.

>B-But Louis still died! He dindu nuffin, he a good boi goin to church gettin' his life on track need mo money fo' dem nobles
That constitution I mentioned gave about as much power to the king as the president has today, including the right to veto. This was important when the Duke of Brunswick (and allies) threatened to invade France unless they abolished the constitution and returned to the pre-Bastille status quo. Parliament passed a bill to tax the church's estates (which included villages and plots of land they themselves taxed, btw) -proposed by clergyman Sièyes-, and the king veto'd it. Parliament passed a bill to form a national guard to support the military in the case of an invasion, and the king veto'd it. Parliament obviously was getting sick of the king actively sabotaging the security of the nation, so they compiled a new constitution that would limit the power of the king. A constitution that was never passed, because Louis was caught trying to flee abroad (most likely Austria).

>See? T-they still killed him! They are animals, they tore him to pieces!
He was given a trial before the entire Assemblé and assigned one of the best defense lawyers in all of France. He was almost unanimously declared guilty. Only after that he was executed in a manner more humane than the injections America still uses today.

Get rekt.

>>53019162
>an agreement between an unpopular King and a group of rebel Barons.
Which was promptly ignored by all parties.

>>53019162
>Not to sound like an elitist but when the Common Man is forced to grab his knife and start slitting throats, it never goes as well as when the Upper Class Cunts do something that benefits everyone peacefully.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror
Yeah....nah. Nah. Things usually don't escalate because one side is reasonable and wants to talk things out and the other is really, really mad.

>>53019175
It's not that they killed Louis, that prick had it coming. It's that they killed Louis, his wife, his cousins, his friends, his tailors, his butlere, and his janitors. And then when those ran out they killed the police, the firemen, most of the doctors, the bakers, the masons, the other tailors, and then most of themselves. Remember that scene in The Dark Knight Rises, in the 'Courtroom' where Scarecow condemns half the city just for being civil staff? Imagine that on the scale of a country, but with decapitation as the main form of execution and riots through the streets every other day.

Guns were invented as an anti-magic tool. I like Wizards of the more drudic and witchy origins, so it's pretty easy for a wizard to deflect arrows and the like, but stopping bullets traveling faster then the eye can see doesn't.

Wizards are still used in warfare, but most of the time they just turn into a wolf to drag your enemies out of their tents into the screaming forest, not help out so much on the actual battlefield.

>>53019239
>It's that they killed Louis, his wife, his cousins
To be fair, what's to stop them from gathering troups and threatening the republic from the outside? Nothing, as Louis XVIII's efforts from England proved. This is also why the proposal to exile Louis XVI rather than kill him was rejected.

>Muh Terror
I'm not going to approve of everything that happend, but let's not pretend that they were just looking for people to kill.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_of_Public_Safety
Those responsible, the Committe of Public Safety, were appointed specifically because there were *confirmed* threats from the inside (the English Letters, among others). They were there to prevent exactly what those cousins, friends et cetera who got away were planning.

The only thing that they did wrong, in my opinion, were the executions that happened without a trial (barring those that happened under military action like the so-called """genocide""" of Vendée of course).

Another fact that clashes with your "running out of people to kill" theory is that Louis XVI was executed in january 1793 and the reign of terror wouldn't begin until june. Quite some things happened in those six months, especially concerning foreign diplomacy.

>>53019035
>There's no fucking way a girl like that is wearing a 44kg steel breastplate.

Of course she isn't. She also is wearing much less armor in terms of coverage.

By your own logic, the head part of Ned Kellys armor was useless because the helmet alone didn't weigh 44kg, and weight is the only thing that matters.

>>53007202
A lot of people already answered but no one really talked about the societies in our fictious world.

>mages are the nobility:

Maybe magic use is limited via agreement. Its not used in wars between states (only to surpress rebellions) but it always looms over the battlefield similiar to the nuclear option.

>mages aren't bound by state authority:

They mostly just don't participate in war and the state has no way of forcing them.

>>53012236
Maybe magic has other drawbacks. If your Star Trek like society is run by 3% of the population (the only ones who can use magic). It gets even more interesting if these 3% are the ruling class (very likely) and prone to madness or getting possesed by demons.

>>53019129
Even with insanly powerful mages and weak defensive magic it is likely that the opposing side has mages too. If the societies are willing too sacrifice their soldiers attrition napoleonic warfare is entirely possible.

So what would be the best system to run this kind of magical black powder napoleonic war setting in?

>inb4 GURPS

>>53019129
>>53022104
Go READ Howl's Moving Castle.

>>53022276
GURPS.

No, really, no other system is currently designed for it, unless you go with Beyond the Rift-Malifaux RPG that isn't even set on earth.

>>53016760
>Powder Mage

Good series, that. Interesting world, varied characters, and gunpowder-based magic is a nice twist on the formula.

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Forget about magic. Consider how would inclusion of giant monstrous humanoids, who would all be soldiers/mercenaries as they are too dumb for any other occupation fuck up Napoleonic warfare.

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>>53007202
>high fantasy

>>53007265
>>53007394
>>53007432
>>53007433
>>53007510
>>53007551
>>53007730
>>53007866
>>53008789
>>53009242
>>53009426
>>53009733
>>53011388
>>53011649
>>53012094
>>53013838
>>53014012
>>53014752
>>53015390
>>53015766
>>53015770
>>53015807
>>53016283
>>53016405
>>53016760
>>53016973
>>53017033
>>53017119
>>53018713
>>53019266
>>53021302
>>53022104
None of that is objectively true in every conceivable setting. The OP has not specified what he means by "magic users", which is a fictional thing that depends on the setting.
The OP has asked a question with no true answer, and has not framed the question in the context of looking for inspiration for a game. This is a yes-or-no question that does not mention games at all.
Why do you all keep taking this bait? Why do you keep replying to off-topic threads? Don't encourage them.

>>53007202

quantity has a quality all its own anon

Wizards take years of training and money to get to any decent proficiency in any fluff

While a Rifleman is faster and cheaper to train

>>53023528

Gunlines and Artillery would most likely make them less efficient in Wars

>>53024301
The fun is in the discussion mate. /tg/ has had threads like this since its conception

>>53019302
go rot in a gulag you retarded commie fuck

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>>53024301
Op's competence in opening up a thread rarely matters in /tg/.

That said, here's your (you).

>>53025694
What you're missing here is that those were kept active even during times of peace and existed specifically for "re-education". Next time try to have insults that make sense in the given context.

>>53007577
You are not alone anon.

>>53007866
The thing to take into account, is that (at least for my branch) only about 10% of the population is actually able to serve (physically and legally) and only a much smaller percent (varies wildly) actually do. And of that, yes, only 10% don't make it, but that's still leaving only a very small part of the population that can serve. Now how many of them are going to be magic users, and how many of them are actually going to be all that useful? Those numbers given before (about a quarter of the population) is going to result in a very small resulting number of highly capable mages. In all likelihood, this would have them serving in more of a role like modern armor or air power, precision strikes against key targets in support of conventional troops, or tailored to take out the other side's assets of the same sort, with some room to generalize.

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>>53024301

Read the powder mage trilogy OP.
Basically gun powder armies mages versus classic mages.

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>>53024301
>first half of your post
>pic related


>Why do you all keep taking this bait?
discussion ain't bait, i cannot conceive of how this bait in the first place.
> Why do you keep replying to off-topic threads?
seems fine to me
perhaps you are sperging a bit too hard anon

>>53007202

Depends on the setting, but in most settings combat magic isn't economical, even the ones where magic is powerful. A caster capable of doing real damage is too valuable to lose in a skirmish or hang out with infantry. They'll be back in a safe place enchanting bullets or with small parties on special objectives. Logistics will put the casters where they'll do the most good overall.

Even pretty high magic settings like FFXIV are mostly non-casters. The cinematics with battles still have armies in formations behaving somewhat normally. There's just more potential for the heroes and leaders to shine because they tend to amass magical resources and people about themselves.

>>53019175
t. sans culotte

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>>53007202
Not really.

>>53007202
if anything, guns would be the great equalizer against cater supremacy. No longer will one need years of study to deliver overwhelming force. Not even a mage of skill could stand against focused canon fire for very long.

Firing lines can achieve with a bunch of inexperienced greenhorns what used to take a group of highly trained mages to accomplish.

>>53019071
One can only hope for the day.

>>53031829
the fuck is going on in those panels

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>>53031829
Manga Maoyuu Maou Yuusha - "Be mine, Hero" "I refuse!" manga is an interesting manga but in it's last climax the heroes and their army had to face off with a musketeer army supported by pike-men and they do what every other Napoleonic army did to win wars

Make a fuck ton of muskets. Trained a fuck ton of men to used them (which is extremely easy to do). Lastly to line to fire in volleys to maximize damage to be done. In short the heroes' army had stronger warriors and mages but they couldn't get close enough to use whatever spell effectively. The Musketeers just kept on firing.

>not outfitting wizards with magically animated heavy knight's plate and underslung arm mounted quicksilver glob firing gatling guns.

>not having wizards as your main battle force with samurai motif spray painted across their war harnasses

>not psychic repulsing cannon balls or belching fireballs at incoming cavalry like the muscle wizard you should be

>magic power armor with a shoulder mounted wand of death aimed by a shoulder rested familiar

Wizard does not mean Frail. Just means magical.

>I will never get a sufficiently guns and wands setting ever
Why?

>>53015843

About the only thing you'll be getting is a whiff of her grapeshot

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>>53019302
get a load of this jacobin right here.
this is why the brits will always be better than you
>give the people a republic
>the moment they get it they begin killing "threats" to public safety
>giving license to do that in the first place
>the government becomes so unstable they have to have an Italian come in to win their wars and run their empire
you deserve Lepen and paradoxically you deserve the EU

>>53007202
No 'cause the magic users are all diviners who saw what a stupid idea it was to not use cover.

>>53019302

They burned the Catholic clergy Joan D. Arc style without provocation.

>>53024319

On the contrary, artillery would give them a guaranteed job, as they're the only ones strong enough to heft it around all by themselves.

>>53016283
I disagree, after playing ck2 she is also the continuation of her dynasty. Or the means to secure a non aggresion pact, maybe even an alliance. A princess is a valuable bartering chip for when peace talks start, not something that should ever be taken outside and shot.

>>53032240
Why are Brits so constantly obsessed with the French? It's kind of pathetic really, whenever France is even passingly mentioned you can always smell some butthurt British or Britaboo response popping up.

>>53032891
>without provocation
Another thing I disagree with (the whole supreme being cult was retarded), but without provocation is a very bad way to put it. There was a split between Juring priests and non-Juring priests, the former generally being left alone (Sièyes being the best example, who remained active from the very start and was actually the one to invite Napoleon back to France from Egypt). The non-juring priests did actively support the Ancien Régime, and the papacy actively condemned the revolution from pretty much the start (rather than staying neutral).

http://www.historytoday.com/gemma-betros/french-revolution-and-catholic-church

I think this describes the relationship between the revolution and the church pretty well, how/why relations soured and how there was eventually a compromise. It basically went from indifference to seeing them as in cahoots with the nobility and threats from the outside, until Napoleon and his concordat with the Vatican managed to create a compromise. Keep in mind that revolutionary forces started out indifferent, not actively wanting to slaughter priests because of some bullshit about opiate.

>>53007202
Seems pretty simple to me: Alchemical weapons and armor.

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>>53036904

Your posts are kinda the first time I've read someone defend the barbarism of the Revolution with eloquence enough to make me rethink my opinions on it.

Good on you sir, but I'll still tell you this. I won't ever agree that what was done was right, nor even agree it was justifiable. But what came out of it was good, and that at least, is something

>>53038243
Parliamentarism is hard, civil war is easy, and when revolutions are brought on by hunger, things turn ugly more often that not, because starving people think with their ass.

>>53038243
I agree with you that it would've been better for everyone if things went differently (best case scenario: Louis XVI sits down, shuts up and is remembered as one of France's most beloved kings). It's not so much that I think this was the greatest thing to have ever happend and fully support everything, it's more that I can understand why it happened and don't really see any alternative course of action that wouldn't either require utter genius, anachronistic solutions (like imprisonment before the modern prison system was a thing) or the restoration of the pre-revolutionary monarchy.

I won't depict the jacobins as saints, but I'll also contest them being depicted as demons.

>>53007371

Difference though is a single military wizard can shoot different kinds of 'cannonballs' than a single regular cannon and can carry lots of mass produced wands and stuff. A wand of magic missile and scorching ray alone carries 50 charges each.

A regular millitary wizard of 3rd - 5th level is a pretty effective weapon though probably lacking the range of a cannon

>>53038243
>our posts are kinda the first time I've read someone defend the barbarism of the Revolution with eloquence enough to make me rethink my opinions on it.

Yeah, so you just heard some shit about the revolution and never tried to understand it and look up the facts.
Fucking brits.

>>53007202
>Defeated
>Her eyeshadow running
>Bawling
>About to be executed

My dick is diamonds. Lieutenant, let me rape her! Please!

>>53012226

It's gender equality. A man in that situation would be executed. Are you saying that women should be treated differently than men?

But seriously, I'm not a fan of taking the 'obviously DM's waifu' type hostage. It's biting too hard at the plot hook. Just watch his face fall when you 'give her to the men', or execute her yourself!

>>53007202
Wait man what the heck are you doing? These kind of prisoners serve better as slaves, stop.

>>53019175
>being surprised that a person put into prison and threatened would attempt to escape

Jacque pls

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>>53036904
>Why are Brits so constantly obsessed with the French?
we've been rivals since the crown surrendered it's hold on Normandy and other french holdings.
We have Phillip 2, numerous colonial conflicts, the 100 years war, Napoleon's failed attempt to destroy the great island and worse yet to destroy here economy .
and most notably, linked to the blood of my blood, those proscribed from your endless wars of religion ended up on the beautiful shores of the isle. It breeds some bad blood.
Most importantly you nose turners can't take honest bants

OP just wanted us to argue over the image, didn't he?

>>53007202
A fantasy Napoleonic army would be baller. Human line infantry,Orc Grenadiers, dwarf engineers, gnome artillery, elf riflemen/ skirmishers, and centaurs for Calvary

>>53014752
>Temeraire
Excellent taste