/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

I took the character suggestion of "nightstalking journalist" and made one of those.

Speaking of Beast, I haven't been clued in since the first revision, did it approach something that isn't terribly embarrassing to even just read about?

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Obligatory repost

Does anyone have this "World of Darkness General" layer/template available separate from this image?

>>52967129
Its kinda better. Biggest issue i have us how much reliance ot has on the other splat books as other npcs

>Sire, pardon the intrusion, but the Anarch are revolting.
They most certainly are, the whole notion is just disgusting, so disrespectful. Though acknowledging that is important, it's also no reason to interrupt my ...
>Apologies, Sire, I mean that they're making riots in streets. Right now.
Well then, we shall notify Prince of this beautiful city to restore order. Now who would that be...
>You are, Sire.
Oh! Really? Lucky me! Since when? No matter, fetch my weapon, armor and send for the finest horse. We ride into the streets!

This is present state of Camarilla.

>>52967103
A very unoriginal Gangrel

>>52967382
>Malkavian prince

>>52967103
A scottish gangrel who spent some time in barcelona and got recruited by Anarchs by chance

Now what's the deal with that Zack Sabbath guy? I mean ok he's a stalker but he's an artist, not a writer am i right?

>>52963709
How does it feel to be this wrong?
Exalted > CofD > Scion > OWoD (if scion means 1e)
Exalted > Scion > CofD > OWoD (if scion means 2e)

>>52967417

He's a writer, actually. He wrote a lot of We Eat Blood and All Our Friends Are Dead, which is not particularly well liked.

>>52967417
>I mean ok he's a stalker but he's an artist, not a writer am i right?
He wrote some books for Lamentation of the Flame Princess

My very first was a Gangrel, solved every problem with physical force, because his animal servants were cockroaches, nothing happened in the city he wasn't aware of. He used the boxing merit to permastun anything he fought.

>>52967503
>>52967501
So a neglegible artist hired to try and cater to his fanbase

I can accept that strategy, companies pulled weirder shit

>>52967577

The problem is that he's got a lot of drama surrounding him and if the work isn't good enough, it'll get drowned out by the drama. That and OSR fans usually just stick to OSR for their horror gaming anyways, so it's not like there's inherent crossover.

Lo and behold, the work wasn't good enough. The Mage VN is the only one that seems to get some more positive buzz.

>>52967103
Some tremere asswipe that got handed to me for one shot game

Does anyone have any World of Darkness story times?

>>52967129
Lairs are nice

>>52967893
How about the time two asswipes i played with wanted to play two incestous lesbian tremere twins with the goal to diablerize all other players and scaring away a batch of new players for life?

>>52968048
#relationshipgoals

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>>52967103
>What was your very first WoD character like?
Emo teen Gangrel orphaned foster home runaway.
I was 14.

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>>52967137

Here, newfag. Next time, lurk moar.

>>52968429

... did you not read my post? I'm asking for the text as a separate thing, a template or a photoshop layer. Not just cropped from the image either, but a transparent .png or whatever that can be superimposed on another image that'd be fitting for a WoDG OP.

>>52968093
Funniest thing of this is i was recently informed that the couple broke up after years accusing eachother of being insane loli-loving sailor moon fapping freaks

they are both men and they never met eachother in person

But yeah they were both totally loli-loving sailor moon fapping, game breaking, whining, fat-trembling, fedora tipping, furry petting cancerous faggots

>>52967103
Southern baptist preacher Obrimos mage

>>52968445
>>52967137
Font is called Garish Monde in New World of Darkness Fonts Package on Mr. Gone's page
https://mrgone.rocksolidshells.com/fonts.html

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>>52968530

Oh my, I never really expected to find it. Thought it was made in photoshop or something like it. From the bottom of my heart, anon, thank you.

>>52967103
First character was a Sonny/Johnny-5/Iron Giant/CHAPPIE unfleshed Promethean, developed to be a replacement soldier, his developer went kinda crazy making him, and he ended up on the run from a PMC

>>52967103

Neon and Chrome Virtual Adept, mostly unremarkable otherwise.

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>>52967103
Middle aged Gangrel blues musician.

I had an idea: the Abyss is actually the remnants of former Supernal Truths and Gods killed and deleted from reality when the Exarchs ascended (or just some people believe this.)

This would imply:

Mad Scelesti who seek to restore Abyssal truths to Supernal status.
Mad Scelesti who summon and kill Supernal entities to create Abyssal creatures of vast power.
Overthrowing and removing the Exarchs from the Supernal would be a terrible idea as it would create a new and vastly powerful extension to the Abyss more horrible than the Exarchs themselves.
Reflections of the Watchtowers in the Abyss such as the Tremere tree might actually be former Watchtowers, successfully deleted from reality by the Exarchs or worse.
Deleted Watchtowers may actually be quite common but just never actually noticed because they were retroactively removed from time.

>>52966145
The only reason stuff like that would be an issue is if you're playing with people who have more interest in min/maxing and 'winning' the game than roleplay. Complexity in the system to make the odds superficially harder to calculate is a solution in search of a problem.

>>52969067
That rather obviously makes the Abyss the most powerful faction that is the winner of every conflict and can absolutely never lose. If you're fine with that implication, then go ahead, just mind that your players might just stop caring about the Abyss threatening anything or anyone, as its eventual victory is absolutely inevitable regardless of what even the mightiest Archmasters could possibly do.

>>52969336
I don't see how that is any different than the standard cosmology.

Really, I think the only way to really win against the Abyss is for Archmages to build a bunch of Watchtowers.

>>52969463
It's different in that the Abyss isn't really anything special in canon, to the point where it's represented as just another participant in the pact that the other participants are at worst ambivalent about and usually simply ignore?
> the only way to really win against the Abyss is for Archmages to build a bunch of Watchtowers
I fail to see what difference would that make.

>>52967103
>What was your very first WoD character like?
An innocents character believe it or not. Standard kind of to nice for his own good little boy.

>>52969668

How long did he last?

>>52969683
Well it depends. If I remember right it was around seven sessions, but he totally lived. It was sort of an intro thing, our group all rolled up kids and then went through a sort of weird adventure thing, one together but then each had their own solo thing on different days. Then we picked up about seventeen years later for a more 'regular' story using the same character but all grown up.

>>52969789

What kind of supernaturals did you deal with? Vampires? Garou? Something entirely else?

>>52967103
Haven't had one yet, i'm the Storyteller.

>>52969906
fag

>>52969963
double fag

>>52970017
triple fag

>>52970038
quadruple fag

>>52969843
This was a LONG time ago, so sorry if the memories are a bit dim.
The thing was split, there were like 3-5 sessions as a group which was basic little kids see something weird and get interested fair, and then things got kinda intense and the next two or three were each person individually, the ST met with each of us on separate days and this laid alot of the ground work for the coming stuff, before the final two were back as a group.
The first 'arc' was a new group of kids in a new school. It started off with mostly roleplay, all the kids met each other and become friends through an accelerated two months or so. Then the weirdness starts, a new family moves in, a few kids go missing, and a new teacher shows up to class. Everyone remembers the teacher being there all year, he's even on the records, but its not the same teacher any of the kids remember. So they do what little kids do and form a 'gang' to solve mysteries with.
I can't remember all of them, but I know one of the parent's of one of the random students was a mage, and another parent was a Malleus hunter. The disappearing kids were from a True fey, and the last supernatural thing was a non splat monster, basically a dryad like thing, kind of like a nature spirit crossed with a human.
The end of the group part of the story was that the kids managed to save one kid from getting taken by the fey, and ended up killing one of the things they leave behind to replace them that I forget the name of. with the help of the hunter. In my personal stuff I kind of made friends with the tree lady and got her to give me a magic fruit, and it started off my character as the one willing to try and deal with the supernatural as people.

>>52970063
quintuple fag

A lot of sexual tension goin' on

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>>52970134
If only someone were to relieve it...

>>52970134
fag

You're all equally faggy.

>>52970152
Cardposters are virgins

>>52970152
That's my girlfriend's favorite hentai/manga. Should I be worried?

>>52970171
fag

>>52970206
faggot

>>52970277
homosexual

>>52970307
gaylord

You idiots are insufferable.

>>52970378
LARP'er

>>52970378
no u

>>52970378
fag

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>>52970171
I'm afraid that ship has sailed well over decade ago. Though if one were to judge by the amount of action I'm (not) seeing lately, I might as well be.

>>52970202
Does either of you look like petite teenage boy? I would say don't worry about it, there's worse things to like out there. So much worse...

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Epic bants ITT

Did that guy give an example of how you can game the system in nwod and how its bad yet?

Cos all i saw was he said "oh but you can botch im so edgy and then previously said you had to house rule the fact you can fuck up average tasks you perform every day"

>>52967103
>What was your very first WoD character like?

He doesnt exist yet.
Im a forever gm

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>>52970479

>>52970599

Hey, could be worse. You could be forever lurker/reader, like me. I've read a ton of WoD books and I've yet to play anything.

>>52970599
fag

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>>52970603
Shit quoted the wrong person.

Whatever. Here's a template. Have fun.

gay thread

>>52970703
ur gay

>>52970714
shut up

Rate my antagonist for an upcoming vampire the requiem game I'm gonna run.

>the rare one in one billion exception to the no hybrid splat rule
>awoken mage who was embraced by a vampire, but still has access to arcanum
>vampire mage eventually sees final death centuries before game begins
>uses a rote/spell to disperse his consciousness into other vampires
>surprise he's the source from where malkavia originates
>vampires who cants support his will go mad.
>vampires who can become part of the hive mind

>>52970731
gay

>>52970727
fag

>>52970731
>>the rare one in one billion exception to the no hybrid splat rule
stopped reading there, it's shit, apply yourself

>>52970731
I didn't know malkavia was a thing in requiem but sounds serviceable enough anyways. Real question is how are the players supposed to interact with something like that?

>>52970760
Care to elaborate how I could improve?

>>52970759
mageposting was better than this

>>52970797
dont be a snowflake

>>52970793
Interaction is something like agent Smith from the matrix.

>>52970816
fag

>>52970827
And how should I do that?

>>52970827
We're all snowflakes here though. Mommy told me so.

>>52970589
>>52966145

Not my fault you weren't paying attention.

>>52970909
Nothing better than having a game where the numbers on your sheet don't mean anything, and you have no way of actually knowing what you are good at or more likely to critically fail at.

Sounds like a great way to do things if you don't want players to have any agency in their characters or decisions.

>>52970909
i missed it cos its retarded and not remotely an example of in play.

have fun having "tension" rolling any dicepool when using botches

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>>52971173
They actually do. You can still run roughshod over combat encounters and the like if you build for it. Nothing like throwing nine and ten attack and dice at something three rounds. You should consistently prevail but success is no longer a virtual guarantee.

And that isn't how botches have worked since revised/20th. You only botch if you roll no successes. If ones bring you down to zero successes, it's an ordinary failure so the likelihood of botching DOES decrease as your skill grows except at difficulty 10. At ten, all things are equal UNLESS you are working within your specialization, at which point tens are doubled.

>>52971201
Not an argument.

>>52971569
Alright I caught up with this whole debate since nothing else is happening. Correct me if I'm wrong here but are you honestly trying to say that being able to make a character and know he's going to succeed at certain tasks is a bad thing?

>>52970101
infinity +1 fag

>>52970731
Just make him a successful version of Tremere. Even in CofD just say it was a Mage who managed to achieve the immortality of vampirism with shenanigans, but the catch is that he has to drink the blood of Mages to maintain his magic.

>>52971689

I guess you could say that it might be a bad thing in a horror game, where bad things should threaten to happen any moment, but the higher difficulty of an average CofD roll compared to an average WoD roll ultimately evens out if we're considering the idea of these mechanics creating any kind of tension besides maybe a momentary, gambling kind.

If we're actually going to examine how successful these games are as horror games mechanically, they're going to come up short, but a lot of that is because horror in RPG gaming is very difficult even before you put down math.

>>52971822
>bad things should threaten to happen any moment
That doesn't need to be baked into the very conflict resolution mechanics, and in fact probably shouldn't be. Horror or no its still a game, you need to have a reasonable idea of what things are likely to succeed and what things aren't, and if the mechanics are always uneven then what are supposed to be mundane tasks can become needlessly difficult. Like, wasn't it 1e where a regular housecat could straight up kill most police?

You get tension from other places. From having enemies or forces that are way more powerful than the heroes, or having an enemy who could show up at any second without warning, or things like that. Hell if you're judging tension off whether a roll is likely to succeed then you can create tension anywhere by just making higher difficulty rolls, or rolls of moderate difficulty that have serious consequences for failure.
The mechanics are there to help tell the story, not to BE the story.

>>52971786
At risk of sounding like a fag. I don't really like that idea

>>52970731
>the rare one in one billion exception to the no hybrid splat rule
0/10
Go back, and start again.

>>52971689
From the perspective of a forever ST, yes.

>>52970731
I fucking hate this. Lorewise, it's literally impossible for a vampire to Awaken, period. The souls are too changed for that to ever be the case.
A normal mage would make for a better villain, even if it WAS possible. Something outside of Kindred society is far more terrifying than something that's within, and nothing terrifies vampires more than wizards of the truest order.

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>>52970152

>>52971698
infinity+2 fag

>>52972051
Are vampires actually afraid of mages though? Aren't they rather ignorant of how true magic works?

>>52971956
Fag.

>>52970731
This is a fucking horrible idea and you should genuinely no joke kill yourself.

Stop being faggots. All of you.

Fags.

>>52972108
You don't have to know how Magic works to know that assholes who can summon great gouts of fire are bad news.

>>52972108
As far as I know, most of the other splats' views on Mages are "Avoid, potentially really powerful and potentially really crazy".

>>52972066
fag

>>52972108
after being turned into a lawn chair the first time they meet a mage, its hard to build up any fear of them

>>52972108
The Kindred are wary of the Awakened in both OWoD and CofD.

Why all the animosity towards a hybrid splat antagonist? Obviously it breaks lore and isn't terribly original, but you can homebrew whatever you like and execution trumps originality 9 times out of 10.

>>52972178
Because crossovers were a mistake

You CAN make a vampire mage, just don't use MtA lore and mechanics

>>52972178
Samuel Haight

>>52972178
megafag

>>52972108
Why would you ever not be afraid of people who can literally rewrite reality? Especially because Mages can develop incredible power within a standard human lifetime, so to a several hundred year old vampire, it would be the equivalent of a toddler with a Davy Crockett.

>>52972178
>Obviously it breaks lore
If you paid any attention to this general you'd know this never gets a positive reaction.

>>52971936

It's not like WoD's horror is really into "who lives, who dies" anyways. If I wanted that I'd just play Dread.

>>52972201
Do remember that the Kindred are mentally frozen at the time of their Embrace.
A physically twenty-five year old vampire who has lived for five-hundred years isn't going to act as wise compared to an eighty year old multi-degree Master.

Decades of Awakened knowledge also outstrips centuries of Kindred knowledge, quite easily.

>>52972205
As it should be, WoD games are 90% lore anyway if you're gonna ignore it what's the fucking point.

>>52972196
That's an extreme case.

>>52972051
I realise i forgot to include the fact that after becoming an infectious hivemind vamp-mage cant actually use arcana any more.

My bad.

>>52972251
>WoD games are 90% lore anyway if you're gonna ignore it what's the fucking point.
It's 90% lore from YOUR splat

>>52972243
mentally frozen? not wise? Where do you get this shit from?

If they can increase skills and even stats then they can fucking learn to not to act like 25 year old knob jockeys..

>>52972243
>Do remember that the Kindred are mentally frozen at the time of their Embrace.
Oh, right, I did forget that. Possibly because I've always thought it made no sense, but w/e.

>>52972329
For that matter, extremely old vampires were likely embraced at a young age due to mortality rates in the past. They were knob jockeys once too.

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>>52972066

>>52972178

1. It's actually not a very creative concept, especially as a solution for the mystery of Malkavia
2. You can already use VII for the basic hive mind plot and not have to deal with lore crossover headaches
3. If he's only a Vampire Mage in backstory and a bunch of regular vampires in a hive mind in the modern day, why the backstory at all?

>>52972329
You're going to act differently, to be certain. Yet you're still going to be at-the-core an eternal twenty-five year old. A very damn experienced one, sure, but still twenty-five.

>>52972243
>Do remember that the Kindred are mentally frozen at the time of their Embrace.
[citation needed]

>>52972341
it would make less sense if this wasn't the case. The human mind would be much too incomprehensible if they kept mentally changing. The oldest person recorded was 122, we have no idea how someone older would act.

Immortal mages are like this though. I imagine Liches are quite venerable in thought, but with no drawbacks to speak of. The true elders.

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Not asking about power levels and such, because frankly it's pointless (and even as a VtDA/VtM fag I'm perfectly capable acknowledging that the Technocratic Union reigns supreme), but how much does the average vampire know about the other supernatural entities in the world? Garou, I imagine are fairly commonly brought up. What about Demons? Wraiths? Mummies? Whatever there is in nWoD?

>>52972406
Would you prefer it if your teenaged vampire became senile after a hundred years? Or if not, just a crusty old person with the body of a brat?
Vampires being mentally frozen is a lifesaving workaround to this annoyance.

The citation is in the earlier section of the core, by the way. Go find it.

>>52972444
I'd imagine Kindred really only know bout Werewolves and Ghosts, ponder about Changelings, whisper about Mages, and have no clue about the rest.

Personally I'd run automatic knowledge as being based on their Occult dots.

>>52972424
>The human mind would be much too incomprehensible if they kept mentally changing
Isn't that kind of the point of Vampire? How vampires have to struggle with what they are and their increasingly distant relationship with their humanity?

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>the mage supremacy circlejerk is here.

Fuck me dead

>>52972462
Don't people go senile from the physical aspects of aging, parts of the brain literally not ticking as great as they once did? And if not couldn't it be as simple as saying the curse keeps you from going nuts?
Because whats 'mentally frozen' supposed to mean? Can a vampire never go through any type of seriously personality change because they just get thrown right back to where they started?

>>52972491
fag

Hold on I got this

THE HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE FUCKING SUCKED

>>52972523
The frozen mentality of the Kindred is actually a very interesting lure for players. Emotions and experiences they did not acquire in their former lives intrigue them even more. A vampire who falls in love for the first time will find it very strange and difficult to handle, for instance.

>>52972543
Meant for >>52972491

>>52972543

Disregard this. Instigate Mage supremacy.

>>52972462
fag

>>52972491
They really only get insufferable when idiots/shitposters deliberately mention Mage when talking about another game.

On another note: ostensibly this is supposed to be a horror game, but has anyone ever been legitimately creeped out while playing?

>>52967103
>What was your very first WoD character like?
An ENGLISH Vietnam Veteran turned hippie afterwards then to be embraced by a Brujah.

He got killed by the Queen of London because he broke the Masquerade a couple of times.

Should've joined the Sabbat, I knew it.

>>52972611
Doubt it counts but i made my players get very emotional to tge point of crying at critical plot points.

>>52972611
Or when you get that one vampfag trying to argue that Caine is somehow the equal to universe busters, AKA the various Archmages living in space somewhere.

>>52972647
That's covered by idiots bringing up Mage's cosmic powerlevels when talking about the more street-level games.

>>52972640
Storytime?

>>52972647
To be fair the Disciplines at 10 are comparable to the highest Spheres.

>>52972647
>>52972700

I hate you both.

I honestly can't tell who's false flagging at this point, I just hate you.

If I could hate you to death,I would.

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>>52972700
No they aren't. You know it, I know it, and the Magefags CERTAINLY know it as they are about to make VERY clear.

>>52972647
Universe Buster in theory but in reality could just bust a nut because the Paradox, Cosmic Entities and other Mages would fuck him over before he would do anything.
Can consider yourself to have that power when you cannot really use it?

But, excluding that, I'm really tired of people quoting archmages on EVERY SINGLE ARGUMENT that don't even concern them, or people talking about archmages like they are some kind of a reachable goal by spending exp points that smell like powerplayers and mistook Storyteller games to be like fucking DnD.

>>52972700

BAIT BAIT BAIT
DO NOT RESPOND
BAIT BAIT BAIT
DO NOT RESPOND
BAIT BAIT BAIT

>>52972748
>Can consider yourself to have that power when you cannot really use it?

Using Masters of the Art I can indeed turn the universe into a giant buttsack and get away with it.

fite me u pleb

>>52972700
No you fucker. Ten dot Disciplines barely go beyond the planet in scale, while seven dots was enough for Voormas to nearly buttfuck the universe into eternal stasis. The highest dots in the Spheres are enough to challenge God.

Fucking die.

Has anyone ever played a cosmic-level game with Archmages?

It sounds like the sort of thing that would be fun as long as you're not taking it too seriously

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>this thread
>this thread
>this thread

>all of you

Hello, storyteller here.
I need a pulp scenario for my V20 campaign. I want to run a horror scenario where my neonate PCs are going to get their shit handled by one mad human in some underground complex and I need them to feel strong and confident before that.

Thing is, I don't really know what antagonists would do the trick. I'm not used to writing that kind of scenaris. What could I pick that is threatening to a coterie of 5 neonates (not exactly combat oriented, except for the Brujah) but that will trick them into believing they're OP ?

And since the feeling I want to create is "We are Vampires, so we don't have to be afraid of anything", I can't simply give them weaker kindreds to fight, and werewolves seem a bit to strong for that as well.

As for context, they're getting manipulated by some hidden methuselah who will send them on diverse quests across the world to lead them to do exactly what he wants and think it is their idea. As this is the first quest he will send them on, I'll need some kind of direct reward so they trust him more afterward.

>>52972677
The short version.
>hunter the vigil game
>ask one of the players if I could give him a special plot hook.
>tell him about Changelings from Changeling The Lost
>he agrees to be an unknowing fetch.
>slowly the players find they're being stalked.
>fetch!hunter sees past Changeling human disguises
>eventually find out a Russian crime ring have moved into town and its ran by a man who looks just like him.
>a Changeling npc ally breaks the news that the player is a fetch assembled from his dead sisters corpse and ak-47 parts.
>fetch!hunter despite having know out of character for months still gets emotional.

One of my prouder moments as a gm

>>52972861
So, do you guys know of a good antagonist that I could use to create my effect ?

>>52972771
Masters of the Arts specifically says that Paradox always applies when using Arch Spheres because they cannot really be hide and every single one of them just brutally rapes the laws of reality so badly that the conseguences would be tremendous for you.

Also you cannot use Prime to reduce your probability to get Backlash, because that would just make things nastier.

Of course you can use them within your own realm, but that would be the equivalent of a kid playing in a sandbox.

>>52972834
I don't think it would really be that fun, the more power you have the more bullshit the ST needs to stop you.
The problem is that Arch Mages wouldn't even be fun as enemies, because of their bullshit powers, and they would sound like walking deus ex machina as friendly/neutral NPCs. Fucking unplayable.

>>52972700
Level 10 Protean can be somewhat compared to Level 7 Forces.

What's the most ridiculous thing an Archmage could possibly muster?

Speaking of OWoD, as I don't play CofD.

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Right, fuckers.

If you could use any single historical period during which to play your game, be it Vampire, Mage, Werewolf, Demon or whatever, which one would you play in? Think of something that only you yourself would like and please elaborate as to why you picked that particular era.

>>52972914
90s

>>52972914
Post on 9/11 iraq war geist the sin eater.
Lots of introspection. Lots of moral ambiguity. Ripe for interesting stuff

>>52972893
The Paradox that Archmages deal with are explicitly ST territory as described in the book. The consequences really vary because of this. There are no hard rules to speak of.
Annoying, as you COULD get away with it if the ST wanted you to. Which just means he will, probably.

It would be easier to just apply heavier whatnot to pre-Archmagic Paradox.

A common mistake is that a single usage is suicide for the Archmage, which it just isn't.

>>52972893
>I don't think it would really be that fun, the more power you have the more bullshit the ST needs to stop you.
>The problem is that Arch Mages wouldn't even be fun as enemies, because of their bullshit powers, and they would sound like walking deus ex machina as friendly/neutral NPCs. Fucking unplayable.

I dunno, I feel like it might work in a Gurren Lagann sort of context, where everything functions on the absurd powerlevel they do. I wouldn't know how to do it, I prefer street-level stories, but I'm sure somebody's got a crackerjack idea for a universe-spanning space opera

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>>52972953

What's playing Geist all about anyway? I haven't looked at nWoD past Requiem yet.

>>52972914
Depends on the game. I like 90s for a lot.
Had a bitching 1940s Mage Noir game once. That was a lot of fun.
Failing that the 70's or 80s could be a fun setting for the right group.

>>52972902
Prime 9 plus Forces 9 is enough to replace God as omnipotent over the universe and beyond.

>>52972992
A WW2 era geist game lead to my London born rough and ready rifleman sharing his consciousness/body with Irwin fucking Rommel.

That game was interesting.

>>52972914
Awakening during the Middle Ages. I want to try going for a more classic fantasy feeling where the secret world of monsters and magic and faeries is much closer to the surface than it is in the modern day, and Mages resemble their archetypes with mighty wizards and sullen necromancers and all that.

>>52972914
I don't know the exact era, but early AD Hunter. Like maybe somewhere between 9th-15th century. Times when people still generally thought that yeah, demons and monsters are totally real things that really exist.

>>52972914
I've been kicking around some story ideas for an Anarch-centric Vampire game set in 1968.
If you don't know '68, it was probably one of the worst years to be an American: the Tet Offensive shattered public confidence in the Johnson administration, catapulting the anti-war movement into the mainstream, the assassinations of King and Kennedy turned the optimism of the 60s into the anger and cynicism of the 70s, the election was plagued with distrust and accusations of backroom dealing and corruption -- no respect for authority, no hope for the future. It's great to imagine that chaos bleeding into the Kindred's society.

>>52973033
go play ars magica

>>52972914
Dermon cannot really be played in a historical campain, if you don't modify the lore (For example I'm going to settle a Demon oneshot in the 40' next week)

I feel like Roman Era Vampires would be interesting to see.

Or to see Werewolves in the war with the Tzimiske, when they were still hopeful that they could win.

Some Italian reinassance Mages would also be interesting.

>>52972976
Written Fiction is way different than a game you play.

>>52972966
As the Paradox varies also for minor spheres and is up to the ST, you can just scale up the Backlash to Galactic/Universal levels, the "You cannot use prime to just remove the paradox" rule is really what you really need. Mage was always a different game depending on the interepretation of the ST of it, more than other cWoD games.

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>>52972891

>>52973072

>Or to see Werewolves in the war with the Tzimiske, when they were still hopeful that they could win.

Wasn't this back in the pre-flood era? Like, the 2nd generation was still kicking around?

>>52973061
Is it any good?

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>>52973076
Hey, I tried my best to derail the flamewar. I need something here

>>52973094
Werewolves always had this "hateallies" relationship with Tzimiskes, even Dracula story was about that.

But I didn't write correctly that part, the correct phrase I wanted to write was:
>Or to see Werewolves in the war with the Tzimiske and when they were still hoping that they could win against the Wyrm.

>>52972891
New campaign idea: it's 2016, and a group of vampires/whichever creature of your choice begin conspiring to ensure that Jeb Bush wins the Presidency, using all their supernatural abilities and wiles to overcome his fundamentally unelectable nature.

>>52973117
Yes. Very

>>52973154
What rank is kek? Would he be an abyssal entity?

>>52973139

Ah, okay, I thought you were talking about the Carpathians area at first.

>>52972719
Mind 4 + Space 2 for sympathetic casting.

Remind me, which game lines do and don't have 'sub splats' like ghouls?

>>52973330
your mom

>>52973167
Kek is an aspect of the Wyrm

>>52970152
> she

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>>52973461
>Old

>>52973139
>when they were still hoping that they could win against the Wyrm
But they still can
They will all die in the attempt, but still can

>>52970202
> Should I be worried?
Worried about great taste? Why in the world?

>>52973330

At the moment:

Sub-splats: Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, Changeling (sort of in 1e, definitely in 2e), Mummy, Demon

No sub-splats: Promethean, Hunter, Geist (this will change in 2e, if I've read the 2e spec thread righr), Beast

>>52973490
WoD is old but gold

Couldn't Caine literally create whatever discipline, ritual or vampiric magic he wanted, whith whatever effect he wanted, on the spot and immediately have max rank in it?

What's to stop him from creating on the spot a discipline that makes him immune to Mages, or better, that makes Mages unable to use magic? What's to stop him from force every mages that glances in his gereal direction to suffer paradox?

>>52973521
fuck owod

>>52972353
> extremely old vampires were likely embraced at a young age due to mortality rates in the past
And yet the vast majority of old vampires presented in the books are old physically as well. You want subtlety? Here's a brick to the head, that'll be $19.99.

>>52973490
You are the only idiot to don't like it or at least appreciate it.

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>>52973490
>New

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>>52973490
>>52973563

>>52972424
Ever wonder why methuselahs have extremely low humanity ratings?

Now you know.

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>>52973592
BAIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

How do we got to 197 messages in less than a hour?
is this thread worse than /b/?

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>>52973521
Well you're right about one of those
>>52973572
>
>>52973575
>Having shit taste

>>52973608
dumbass it's been seven hours

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>>52973604

>>52972647
>magecucks revising history again

The argument was never that Caine could beat the archmages, it was that they could do nothing to him because of the 7 fold curse

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>>52973625
fUck YoU niGGER ANUs

>>52972243
Are you speaking nWoD here or what? Because in oWoD most camarilla vampires adapt quite easily to the modern life and some Toreador/Brujah are portraited to be more "avant garde" than standard humans.

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>>52973617
fite me irl

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>>52972444
They know that they exist and they know a basic, sentence long description of what they do but they are otherwise ignorant of each other unless there's some cross-splat story hook (Giovanni, Kiasyd, Tremere and even then the party line is "Non-thaumaturgical magic died out centuries ago.")

>>52971689
>>52971822
>>52971936
Well, no. Even in oWoD, a character with nine dice in his pool is still less likely to fail or botch than a character with four. What it does do, however, is simultaneously bend and compress the curve in unusual ways that make it nearly impossible for players to consult with a chart. Add in double successes on a roll of ten when working within a specialization and there are quite a few variables and never does it touch "players will never know what they're good at!" nWoD makes it easy to do that with one chart or one set of calculations and that's why I find it completely unacceptable despite the many strengths of the system.

Example: rolling on die at difficulty 10.
Chance of success: .1
Chance of failure: .8
Chance of botch: .1

Rolling 2 dice at difficulty 10
Chance of success: .27
Chance of failure: .64
Chance of botch: .09

This is the most extreme example wherin we have the highest possible chance of a botch. Everything from this point forward becomes more favorable for the player statistically while providing for the chance of a wild result as pools increase and difficulty decreases.

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>>52973684
Try me you cuck

>>52973520
| Protagonist | Fauna | Antagonists | Evil Version of Protagonist | Subsplat |
|-------------+---------------------------------------------------------+-------------+-----------------------------+-----------------------------|
| Vampire | Strix | | | Ghoul, Halfblood, Thinblood |
| Werewolf | Spirits, Claimed, Idigam | | The Pure | Wolfblood |
| Mage | Supernal Entities, Abyssal Entitties (Gulmoth, Acamoth) | | Scelesti, Reapers | Proximi |
| Changeling | Fae, Goblins | | | |
| Mummy | | | | |
| Demon | Angels | | | Stigmatic, Halfdemon |
| Promethean | Clones, Pandorans, Qashmallim | | Centimani | |
| Hunter | | | | |
| Geist | Ghost, Geist | | | |
| Beast | | Heroes | | |
?

>>52973788
where and when

>>52973817

For Mummy it's Mummy, Shuanksen, Ahmkhat, Decieved (technically), Sadikh

Promethean also have Alchemists now as antagonists, and Beasts have Insatiables as their evil version splat.

>>52973751
You're simply beyond help I'm afraid, if that's what you consider the make or break point.
Still, I'm curious. Why do you consider it bad for players to know how likely they are to succeed at a roll. This is ignoring the fact that literally no one is going to make a probability graph for their dice rolls.

>>52973751
> Example:
It's still basic arithmetic..? It's still exactly the same calculation as for nWoD, except that you actually need to count, which for numbers up to ten is, how do I say it, so easy it's embarrassing to even talk about it. IIRC, they teach that in fourth or third grade, no? Unless you're playing with literal elementary schoolchildren, I fail to see how that influences the players' ability to game the system in any way.
>>52973888
> This is ignoring the fact that literally no one is going to make a probability graph for their dice rolls.
I think he might be legitimately autistic.

>>52973817
[quote]| Protagonist | Fauna | Antagonists | Evil Version of Protagonist | Subsplat |
|-------------+---------------------------------------------------------+-------------+-----------------------------+-----------------------------|
| Vampire | Strix | | | Ghoul, Halfblood, Thinblood |
| Werewolf | Spirits, Claimed, Idigam | | The Pure | Wolfblood |
| Mage | Supernal Entities, Abyssal Entitties (Gulmoth, Acamoth) | | Scelesti, Reapers | Proximi |
| Changeling | Fae, Goblins | | | |
| Mummy | | | | |
| Demon | Angels | | | Stigmatic, Halfdemon |
| Promethean | Clones, Pandorans, Qashmallim | | Centimani | |
| Hunter | | | | |
| Geist | Ghost, Geist | | | |
| Beast | | Heroes | Insatiable | |[/quote]
There.

>>52973751

>completely unacceptable

I don't know, to me a lot of the horror in WoD actually comes from the certainty if a lot of things.

>>52973817
What's the difference between fauna and antagonist?
Also, for werewolf wheres the weird rat/spider spirit things? And for mage wheres the seers of the throne?

>>52973916
>>52973817
You missed both fae touched and permanently ensorcelled.

>>52973925
Those are a type of Claimed. And Seers aren't mechanically different than Mages.

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>>52973788
You're done fucko

>>52973869
Meet me in the shadow in twenty minutes
>>52973953
Kenshiro isn't even the best character in his own series loser.

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>>52973979
>Pic didnt post

>>52973925
Fauna are non-playable entities who aren't necessarily opposed to PCs, antagonists are diametrically opposed to the protagonists, and evil versions of the protagonists are just that, shitbags.

So really, it should go
Protagonists - Pentacle or Nameless Mages
Fauna - Supernal Entities/Mysteries
Antagonists - Abyssal Entities, Scelestus
Evil Versions of Protagonists - Seers of the Throne, Reapers
Subsplat - Proximi, Sleepwalkers (with neat Merits)

>>52973490
Fuck off gay priest

I'm dumb as shit and I don't know fuck but that Mage seems pretty cool. My group's gearing up for a new game. should I go for Awakening or Ascension? This'll be my group's first experience with WoD outside of VtM: Bloodlines, so what would be good reading material?

>>52974109
Ascension if you are a real man.

>>52974109
Awakening.
Ascension has too much baggage, and an inferior Magic system.

>>52974109
Ascension has better fluff, Awakening has better rules.

Ascension is more over the top Pulp, Awakening is more spooky occult mysteries

Ascension has better antagonists, Awakening has an easier to grasp setting.

If you play Awakening play 2e, if you play Ascension avoid M20 [20th anniversary edition]

>>52974109
See this? >>52974171
That anon isn't a real man. You are.

>>52973558
You could say the same for Sphere 10 Archmages.
The Archspheres are even bigger plot devices than 10 dot Disciplines, period.

I don't think the first vampire is going to triumph over these cosmic wizards.

>>52969336

not really it's just where everything the exarchs [REDACTED] went.

>>52973635
>The argument was never that Caine could beat the archmages, it was that they could do nothing to him because of the 7 fold curse

Except it's extraordinarily easy to bypass such defenses using the infinite versatility of the Spheres, 6+ or otherwise.
Due reminder that it only takes Prime 6 to delete curses and blessings derived from God. This includes removing vampirism, effectively erasing the Disciplines from usage. Caine is not exempt from this.

Really, there's nothing stopping an Archmage from personally killing Caine. The question is if God cares enough to step down, which I highly doubt he will.
He did nothing to stop The Unnamed from turning Creation into a blackened corpse. Either this means God just doesn't care enough, or he's not sufficiently powerful to deal with an Arete 10 Archmage.

>>52974241
But he' speaking about not even having Disciplines, but something that goes beyond that, and fluff wise, that's a concept that is even canon.

Vanillisa a Fourth Gen Nosferatu is said to don't even need the disciplines because he/she went beyond them.

Caine has way more power than a Fourth Gen Vampire, so just imagine its possibilities.

Also it was also showed that most spheres and discipline powers are equally on foot on a certain level, with mages having an edge on versatility.

>>52974197
What's wrong with M20 ?

>>52974241
Caine isn't a vampire

What are the best editions for each oWoD game?

Are the 20th anniversary edition the best editions? seem a lot more inter-game compatible if you ask me

>>52974331
>Also it was also showed that most spheres and discipline powers are equally on foot on a certain level, with mages having an edge on versatility.

This just isn't true, and you only need to compare them to see that. We're talking about planetary shaping Discipline and universe shattering Spheres here. Let's not be nonsensical.

10 dots in a respective Sphere is effective Omnipotence. They don't list them for that reason. 10 dot Disciplines have been defined in Gehenna. The only way to apply leeway is to apply Caine, and that is even debateable.

Common sense is at play.

>>52974327
In one Gehenna scenerio God personally descends to punish a vampire that was manipulated into harming Caine, with its own fist.

Also, in many other Gehenna scenarios God is seem to interact with Caine, so saying that he doesn't care enought to step into the field personally isn't quite true.

Also I'm a little bit sad, Caine with his brother murder was able to bring into the world the concept of violence and hatred, in a way that even corrupted angelic beings, that's some pretty nasty magic at work here if you ask me.

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>>52974340
>Caine isn't a vampire

>>52973888
I go to a top fifty university. My players can and they do.

>>52974449
He is not undead, just immortal, and he doesn't even need to suck other's blood

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>>52974476

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Are we really doing this again? Caine can't challenge wizards capable of replacing God.

This has been done to death. The Archmages win.

>>52974484
>No arguments, just reaction image

>>52974520
Why argue with idiots?

>>52974197
>Ascension has better fluff
Debatable.

>>52974331
>Also it was also showed that most spheres and discipline powers are equally on foot on a certain level
You really don't know what you're spewing. This is why the threads have become shit.

>>52974420
Not really defined, but just given an example and then you can also go into plot device.

Also, I was speaking about lower cases, pre 6 dots Disciplines and Spheres can be on equal foot in some regards, with maybe a difference of one dot for one and the other from both sides, level 10 disciplines can fall into world scale, but some other can go even beyond that.

Also how funny it is your ignoring the "there are vampires that don't even need disciplines" argument.

Also for the love of god, don't use the world Omnipotence, because you don't really know what it means, really.

>>52974537
>Muh atlantis

Pathetic

>>52974484
That's true you know. Caine never died, and is cursed with immortality.
Caine is the only living being God cares about, if you harm him you die by divine will.

Ain't no magic to save you from death

>>52974512
Can we jusy fuck off with the mages vs x arguments? Gets repetitive and retArded and its redundant to even bring it up because, why would an archmage even wanna figt caine or vice versa? Its stupid to even have the argument.

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>implying God isn't an Archmage

>>52974566
>the first sinner is the only living being God cares about

>>52974566
>Ain't no magic to save you from death
Wrong

Shielding against Death :^)

>>52974339
Shitty fluff, 600+ pages and they don't even explain how to cast magic in the book itself.

>>52974562
>Also, I was speaking about lower cases, pre 6 dots Disciplines and Spheres can be on equal foot in some regards
Not according to the devs. Pre-Archmage magics are still above-and-beyond the Disciplines and Gifts.

>level 10 disciplines can fall into world scale, but some other can go even beyond that.
Yeah, barely. The Archspheres can explicitly target the entirety of the universe and even beyond if abused. Voormas was going to halt the Tellurian at seven dots.

>Also how funny it is your ignoring the "there are vampires that don't even need disciplines" argument.
Nah, not ignoring. It's just not relevant.

>Also for the love of god, don't use the world Omnipotence, because you don't really know what it means, really.
There's some irony here. For your sake I suggest you drop it.

>>52974587
That's god for ya

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How the fuck is Caine going to match things capable of doing this?

>>52974657
He isn't. Magefags just fall for the most elementary bait, every single time, and derail an entire threat with beating off.

>>52974566
To be fair, you only need Prime 6 to remove the seven fold curse. God would need to personally intervene at such a point.

The Archmage might actually beat God too, if he/she has nine dots in multiple Spheres. Or just 10 dots in one, as God wasn't strong enough to challenge Al-Aswad apparently.

>>52974657
By having no written stats, pure fiat, and the dedicated protection of God itself, who would have all those abilities and the ability to prevent any?

>>52974674
I feel as though the magefags take bait with joy though. It's like they wait for the moment to strike. They don't care if they're being baited.

They just want to ejaculate all over the screen.

>>52974692
The anti-christ's name is Ass Wad? Who writes this shit.

>>52974602
I see.
My group discovered WoD when I bought the V20 book and after a year of campaign one of my player bought M20 and is hosting a nice campaign, so I'm genuinely curious.
What is there in old editions that is missing in the M20 as to how to cast a spell ?

>>52974699
Were Jehovah the ominpotent absolute, which is by NO MEANS implied in Mage.

Numerous books in Mage and Werewolf imply that mighty Yahweh is just a particularly powerful Celestine, not The One. Celestial Chorus lore implies the One died in the act of Creation, and Her soul become the Avatars of Mages.

Even if we assume that God is in fact God in all meanings of the word, an Archmage with Forces 9/Prime 9 is exactly as powerful as he is.

In the end, Mage 20 comes in and canonizes that God in your game is whoever and whatever your ST decides He is, meaning this entire debate can be broken down to

>Can the Archmage beat Caine?

Yes, Caine's Disciplines are barely planetary, Archmage's are cosmic in scope.

>Can an Archmage stop the Sevenfold Curse?

Yes, with Prime 6, among other means.

>Can an Archmage kill God assuming God objects to Caine being killed?

Ask your ST.

>>52974699
Caine actually has a stat sheet, but it isn't canon.

Regardless, fiat matters not. The vast majority of godly entities in Ascension run off of this, yet they too get steamrolled by the Union and Horizon. Caine also isn't stronger than the Incarna & Celestines, which are something Archmages can evolve into. Same with Oracles and the Exemplars.

>>52973888
But to answer your question, it's to introduce ambiguity. They can't build to succeed 95%+ at their chosen specialty. It forces them to think in terms of "I can almost definitely do this", "I can probably do this" and "I might be able to do this but if I don't try, we're fucking dead anyway" and to have them succeed or fail based upon those assessments or to pull back and come up with another plan.

nWod is one dimensional: .3 equals success. oWoD forces them to juggle multiple considerations. Chance of success, chance of success becoming failure, chance of failure outright and chance of botch.

>>52974715
Let me give you the brass tacts of how magic in Mage works. You don't have a list of powers, spells, or abilities.

Instead, all of reality is broken down into 9 "Spheres" each describing a facet of reality, like Life, Mind, Matter, Forces, etc. You can outright control by fiat that aspect of reality, doing WHATEVER you want with it, up unto the limit described in the form of the NEXT Sphere Rank, which says "You can't do that without this Rank"

So Life 2 can be used to buff your stats, make you run faster, heal yourself, etc etc etc but can't turn you into a bird, because non-humanoid transformations require Life 4.

M20 leaves out alot of the descriptions that specify what rank exactly you need to perform a given magic effect, meaning you have to go digging online for an old book that tells you.

Reminder that God (whom cursed Caine) and the "extradimensional consciousness" (which mages merge with upon ascending) are not the same thing.

The former is quite likely a Celestine, while the latter is the one responsible for the creation of Creation. Masters of the Art even suggests twice that a mage could have caused the Big Bang.

>>52974345
Well hunter and demon only have the 1 I think, so thats those two settled.

>>52974793
>nWod is one dimensional: .3 equals success. oWoD forces them to juggle multiple considerations. Chance of success, chance of success becoming failure, chance of failure outright and chance of botch.
So nwod allows you to think in character if you are good at something and owod requires you to do things out of character?

>>52974712
It's Arabic for The Nameless

>>52974850
I think you misquoted.

>>52974859
And its English for Ass Wad

Are the caine whores back? Somehow thinking that their beloved dick daddy can challenge old men capable of turning the universe into a giant dildo?

Bait or not, they're making Masquerade players look like complete morons. Good job and respect.

>>52974550
I actually did a comparison using materials from both core books, you can go and look it up on the archieves, the conclusion was that mages still had the edge because of versatility but vampires weren't as defenseless and outclassed as magefags would always imply.

Also, Vampiric character can even buy merits to make them resistant from true magic and thaumaturgy, you can look it up on the manuals, it's not so difficult to believe that some powerful vampires can have even more powerful versions of this merit.

Why is so difficult to conceive that there may be some kind of possible defense from your "all powerful magick?" And maybe not everyone is just a passive victim to that?

>>52974641
>Not according to the devs
The fucking RULES states that, there are 5 dots disciplines that have the same effect of a sphere of similar dots with EXAMPLES listed in the Mage manual of possible magic effects that have basically the same description.

>Not relevant
It isn't relevant the fact that Vampires powers aren't only dbound to disciplines alone? Are you kidding?

>More talking about Spheres
We all got that the Arch Spheres are really strong, but they are not ABSOLUTE

>Oh, the "You first" defense,
Sadly, you still managed to show that you don't know the definition.
Mages by definition are limited by PARADOX, if you got a limitation of any kind, then you are not omnipotent, that's easy to understand.

>>52974692
As I told before in another post, it's showed multiple times that Caine is able to interact with god during the end times scenarios of Gehenna.
While the Unnamed "Destroy Everything" scenario is barely considered to be legal with only one possible conclusion in his favour, also the 20th edition of mage don't even consider it as something that happened, and relegates the arch spheres to a little paragraph saying "If you really want to use them, adapt MotA, we are not supporting it"

>>52974850
Way to cherry pick there, Chet.

What did I say before that? Thinking in numbers is out of character. Thinking in generalities on the fly is how people think in stressful situations in real life as the characters would.

>forces 9
>I create a force disallowing the kindred to exist
>it covers the entire universe
>every vampire is erased
>no way to possibly defend
>God now has to pick a new 'first vampire'

Yeahhhhhh, you're pitting ants against elephants here.

>>52974828
Okay, I see.
In fact, my ST bought the M20 book "How do you do that?" that explains what's missing in the M20.

But I see your point, this should be in the base book and not in some add-on you have to buy separately.

>>52974824
You can do ambiguity perfectly well in new by simply increasing the difficulty of a roll. That and you seem to be assuming that dice pools are constant and static which is basically never the case in actual games, bonuses and penalties come up left and right, especially now with conditions being a thing.
And, sorry if it seems I'm being obtuse here, but I still don't understand WHY letting characters build themselves to succeed at particular tasks is bad. What exactly is wrong with having players who can reliably succeed at rolls? What does that do to the game that affects it negatively?
>>52974467
No rules system in the world will help you with playing with autists.

>>52974914
You're the worst kind of person. Biased, misinformed and possibly a baitposter who isn't actually this retarded. I hope for your sake it's the latter.

Nobody should be THIS hung up about their favorite vampires losing to something so much more powerful.

>>52974914
>Monks can defeat Wizards in 3.5 because if you really minmax and the Wizard is really dumb, you MIGHT win.

>>52974940
This

In order to fight Archmages you must first be able to somehow defend against the universe being thrown at you.

>>52974769
>Celestial Chorus lore implies the One died in the act of Creation, and Her soul become the Avatars of Mages
Mages lore isn't the only and true canon source you know.
>Vampire lore shows a acting god during Gehenna
>Demon lore shows a raging god tearing apart creation in a fit of rage because of the angelic rebellion, that happened AFTER the creation of humanity

>>52974842
>Masters of the Art even suggests twice that a mage could have caused the Big Bang.

All of this is always put into a Mage prospective, and Mage prospective isn't the only possible and valid source.

>>52974940
>Always picking up Arch Masteries when vampires vs mages arguments shows up

I wonder why.

>>52974914
>We all got that the Arch Spheres are really strong, but they are not ABSOLUTE

They kinda are.... Prime 9 creates your own universe with yourself as its supreme being. Combine it with Forces 9 and you can effectively dethrone God himself.

That's why the best thing a vampire can do is to get 10 dots obsfucate

Mages will not even know he exists, so they can't destroy it

Holy shit, the amount of Mage dick-riding in these threads is astounding. You guys are as bad as Nasufags.

>>52975021
Mage lore becomes true retroactively if enough people believe its true.

>>52974914
>>52975021
The point people are making here is that the highest theoretical vampires just don't match the highest theoretical mages. They just don't.

Not sure why this is so hard for you. This has been going on since mid-January. You shouldn't be this ignorant regarding such.

>>52974562
>muh "muh x" dismissal

>>52974940
>He creates this Universal Force to erase vampires
>The Paradox responds by creating an universal force to annihilate mages, and him in particular
>The Universal Anti Vampire Force reaches Caine and the sevenfold curse redirects it in a more powerful way towards the Mage.

Creates two more problems with only one solution, typical mage.

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>>52975069
>Magewank vs Nasuwank

Combine them I say!

>>52974971
If you cannot counter the argument, counter the poster, amirite?

>>52975083
Nice fanfiction. Totally not how the Paradox works. You go for it though.

>>52975110
It's honestly just pointless. It's literally impossible for Caine to beat something capable of matching actual God(s). So It's safe to say you're either retarded or just a baitposter.

This has been done so many times with the same result.

>>52975083
1. Paradox doesn't work that way.
2. The Vampire Killing Force wouldn't generate nearly that much Paradox
3. High rankings in Prime would diminish, albeit not remove, that force of Paradox
4. You're a huge faggot. Saying "Nuh uh, you can't destroy my favorite splat b-b-b-because then I'll destroy all Mages!" is sheer asshurt.

Refer yourself to the Progenitors and ask for a Hyperproctologist.

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Even Brucato thinks mages are above everything else. And he hates the Arch Spheres.

>>52975149
Let's not pretend anything that goat fucker says matters to either side of any argument.

>The player spends a blood point and rolls Dexterity + Occult (difficulty 7). This power can be used to “dodge” any incoming attack of a mystical nature, including any Disciplines that target the character (whether or not they actually inflict damage). Any successes the player rolls are subtracted from the successes on the attacker’s roll. The sign does not serve to turn aside magically enhanced physical attacks; a punch from a vampire with the Potence Discipline still has the full effect.
How strong this is against mages?

>>52975188
You may hate him, but his words speak more truth than not.

>>52975199
It depends if the spell is dodgeable. So fireball or spontaneous combustion.

>>52975092
>bitchboy gilgamesh

The reason why I hate the Nasuverse. Gilgamesh is supposed to have a glorious fucking beard, and not be some fucking supermodel.

>>52975112
>Picking up one argument and ignoring another saying "That's not how it works"

Every single time

Paradox isn't only deep umbral prisons, explosions and paradox spirits, you know?

>>52975133
>An universal altering magic will not generate an universe wide backlash!!
>muh Prime would dimish it!
No, it was exposed to death, you cannot contrast the effect of Paradox using prime, not matter how high, you would just make it worse.
>4
I just made an example making a mirrored effect, and then I also applied the sevenfold curse, because Caine would also be a target. If a Mage would create such force, he would go against a force that would delete him seven times stronger, and that's not even considering the Paradox of the spell you just created.

Question. Why are vampfags so evangelical and biased?

Bonus: If magefags are always correct, this thread being a prime example, why do they not stop flaunting?

>>52975279
You can't prevent the buildup of Paradox, but Prime 9 can ditch it and send it elsewhere. It possibly even creates Paradox Spirits in the process, but is more rumor than fact.

>>52975279
>the seven fold curse
It applied to direct antagonism to the curse-ee. This alone is a big weakness. Magic(k) does not need to be direct to fuck you over.

Also why not just use Prime 6 to remove it? Or not even, just remove Vampirism from Caine. He won't be able to use his abilities at that point.

>>52975279
You're just fanwanking at this point. Paradox would not generate that massive of a backlash, because that is not what Paradox is or how it works. Its not a universal law that punishes Mages for being Mages, its the result of a contradiction in worldviews between the Mage and those around him.

Using an effect to erase from existence something that 99.99999999% of people don't even believe exists isn't going to generate 10,000 Paradox Points just because it makes you butthurt.

>>52975293
Because Vampire is the most popular splat, so there are more people to get aggressively butthurt about it

Because Magefags hate the above fact.

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>>52974945
>And, sorry if it seems I'm being obtuse here, but I still don't understand WHY letting characters build themselves to succeed at particular tasks is bad

I call it designated hitter syndrome. Players build characters that are a threat to anything given as an example at their level. In order to compensate, you must make encounters more lethal or more high stakes which imposes a concurrent penalty in those situations on characters who are not specced for those situations. If I have Bruce Lee in the group, I have to make things challenging but not impossible for Bruce Lee. This is unfair to the other players. If the probability curve is broadened as in oWoD with a greater range of possibilities, I don't have to build for ruthless optimizers and leave everyone in the dust. Conversely, it's easy for characters who are great at one aspect of the game to be competent at another in a pinch. This prevents GM overkill syndrome on my part. I have a problem with the kind of certainty that nWoD brings. A three die penalty on a nine die pool takes your chance of failure from .035 to .1. Players optimize. Period. It's just the kind if strategic behavior that we engage in as humans. What makes oWoD brilliant is the fact that it HAS the botch mechanic and that the system takes this into account.

That's barely a penalty at all. That's D&D 3.5. That's completely broken.

>>52975293
Magefags in general are the most knowledgeable splatfags. Knowledge is power and power equates to hubris.
it doesn't matter though, there's only one retard ruining the thread at the moment.

Hint: it's not a magefag.

>>52975279
Oh god you're an idiot.

You might as well become the first Pope of the Church of Caine for having such ludicrous notions.

the caine whore is no doubt in the process of writing another massive bitch post.

>>52974657
>Mind 9
>You are now the single mind of the universe. You exist as everyone. Individuality no longer exists.

Argument now irrelevant. Caine and the Archmage are one.

>>52975471
My hands rest eagerly between my legs in anticipation!

I'm sure it will be filled with "Nuh-uhs!" and desperate pleadings.

Hey, >>52972861 here.
I'll dare ask again:
I'm a VtM storyteller trying to write some kind of power fantasy pulp scenario to trick my players into being overconfident for their next adventure.
I'm having a hard time thinking of an appropriate antagonist that will be threatening enough for the players to feel involved but that will allow them to triumph with style.
Do you know something in oWoD that would work for that ?

>>52975293
>why do they not stop flaunting?
Retards keep challenging them.

>>52975530
Use a Sorcerer but make them think its a Mage. Then later spring an actual Mage on them.

Or do that same plan, for literally any given splat.

>Kithblood vs Changlings
>Ghouls vs Vampires
>Furries vs Werewolves

Etc etc. That or go the old Don Quixote route, and really build up a monster hunter as some legend in the business whose hunted a million vampires and staked werewolves but then when the players meet him it turns out he's barely even run into the supernatural and is basically a pop-celebrity full of bullshitting.

>>52975370
That reasoning makes a bit of sense, but I now think it's probably more or less of an issue depending on the group. Typically, players either really want their character to be good at a thing, or else don't really care and just make a character they think is cool. If they are min maxing like that though, I don't really see the need do things to balance it out, what's wrong with letting them go into combat and shine and be really awesome? Though again, depending on the group some people might really hate that sort of thing. I always thought it was kinda how WoD was assumed to be played I guess, with how many different fields there were I thought each person would have some combat ability and then mainly focus somewhere else, while one character was the 'main fighter' so to speak.

>>52974657
Underrated post. Nothing in the arsenal of any vampire can match what is listed. The Forces 9 + Prime 9 example is just icing on the otherwise fat-as-fuck cake.

>>52975342
>Why not also use Prime 6 to remove Vampirism from him
You first need to get a scenario where the mage knows of his existence.
Then casting the spell hoping that god would not notice your doing, a thing that every omniscient god is likely to do.
Then after casting it you need to consider paradox for that very thing, because AGAIN, every arch sphere equivalate HUGE Paradox, no matter the effect, it's just because it goes against the normal order of things.
Then proceed to cast another spell, this time even at 9 dots, while god just looks and smiles
Meanwhile you expect that:
>God will not recast the curse on Caine and punish the mage for his doing
>The Paradox will just not act for the first reality violation
>The Mage would be able to cast such a powerful spell after such a short time, while also having to deal with the previous paradox and god revenge
Ok, if you say so.

>>52975360
It's not a matter of effect on reality at this point, because the very act of creating a new universal force is indeed an act that would generate a lot of paradox, that's what makes them so dangerous, if you think you can also get away from paradox because most of the universe didn't believe in it to begin with, I'm sorry to tell you, but it doesn't work that way.

It's the same principle of witnesses making it harder for vulgar magic, but in this case the witnesses is the universe. (And that's not my invention, that's also written in the freaking book)
>>52975624
Expect that it was written in a biased way.

>>52975685
>massive bitch post

yup

>>52975701
>>52975701
>>52975701

>>52975685
You realize that everyone here thinks you're a complete moron, right? I always thought magefags were the instigators before you came along.

You don't even have backup for any of your arguments. Quite literally. At least the magefags bother to cite their sources.

>>52975685

>Bias: The Post

>>52975530
Go for something that's a complete Schmuckbag but also has real bonafides.

I ran a game with a bunch of shovelheads and the primary antagonist was the Bishop's Templar. A revenant turned Serbian War Criminal turned Tzimisce and her flunkies based on these guys. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwp7APBgCsI

They were way better equipped and way more experienced but fewer in number.

>>52975600
Well, yes. Their characters can be good at a thing but not to the point where it's a virtual guarantee. I've had games where no one else can get in edge wise in a combat encounter because one player is just that good at optimization. oWoD makes it so that that character can be the main effort but he also may need backup on a bad day.

And this goes for more than just combat.

>>52975685
>Expect that it was written in a biased way.

Hardly.

http://www.strawpoll.me/12861316

>>52975769
Just tell me which sources do you want to know, but you can just check on yourself and see that's true anyways.

The last messages were all like "No you are wrong, the end" without even an argument, and then you consider my posts to be without sources and biased? I even run on multiple logical scenario that got completely ignored, while mages just continues on going with their theoretical wanking while ignoring common sense and just want to cut it short calling me names and poking fun.

The Magefags of this thread are literal powerplayers and munchkin that are only able to nitpick and ignore what it's inconvenient for them.

>>52975858
You're honestly worse than any magefag at this point.

>I even run on multiple logical scenario that got completely ignored, while mages just continues on going with their theoretical wanking while ignoring common sense and just want to cut it short calling me names and poking fun.
There's nothing theoretical about the Arch-Spheres. This isn't something you can argue. These capabilities outweigh anything Caine can dish out.

I'm a Scion player and I acknowledge all of this.
Please, just stop.

>>52975901
The Spheres are not hypotetical, but the scenario proposed by the magefags are.

>>52975980
Oh? Quickly elaborate what they were proposing then.

>>52976008
They were proposing a scenario where the mage knew about Caine, then that he got this curse and how it works in a way that would put the mage in danger, and that it was of divine origin, all kind of information that nobody would know in a not theoretical setting. Just because "Oh, my new Universal Force isn't going to kill all vampires"

When I was just saying that they may do that, but god would just retaliate, and also the paradox, because you altered the whole universe to achieve this. (EVERY arch mastery creates huge Paradox, it's written in Mastery of the Arts, you can take a look at it)
I DIDN'T SAY THAT:
>Caine would survive all of this
>Caine is on par with Arch Masters because of this, or at all

I just said that he's most probably not even bounded to disciplines usage anymore, so it's not as easy to generalize it's power by using them as a measure.
And that God cares enought about Caine to probably act, despite the Nameless One argument.

>>52976008
I don't think he can. He doesn't even have a clue about just what it is he's arguing.

Caine bias will do that to the mentality.

>>52976181
Why is it so unlikely for an Archmage to know about Caine? It seems like a regular Mage could learn of his existence, or least learn his myth, just by doing some digging into the Kindred community.

>>52976319
What kind of Kindred community would be likely to share this kind of knowledge with a random mage?
Also, if you think something like "I would just run into a vampiric library, kill every vampire I find and then start reading books" that would another theoretical obstacle.

But let's say that the Mage has for some reason a drinking buddy that's also a Vampire, and out of the blue he just asks "But what about Vampires, where do they come from?" (Another Likely scenario) and the vampire would just say "Oh yes, we have this myth of Caine and stuff, (If we exclude that the vampire isn't a Follower of Seth, or a Caitiff, or something else) The Mage would just categorize it as a myth, to know about the sevenfold curse you need to ask just two people, God and Lilith, nobody else knows fluff wise about its effects. (A couple more theoretical obstacles)

So I find highly unlikely that the Mage would ever know about Caine and all his freaking strenghts and weaknesses, and if a Mage would ever try something like the Vampire Killing Force, he would just come into the Sevenfold Curse.

>>52976181
Hmmm, ok. Let's see here.

1. There are plenty of ways for Mages to 'know' things without outside/inside information.
This has been fairly evident throughout the Dark Ages, and is still prevalent in Awakening with an actual Knowing Practice.

2. Forces 9 'Alter Universal Forces' is quite horrific in application. It is more than likely the single most powerful ability in the WoD setting. I would actually consider it an ability you just can't win against, whatsoever.
Just imagine the consequences of turning off gravity everywhere.

3. The Paradox garnered from the Arch-Spheres runs off ST fiat, nothing more. It's an annoyance, yes, but it doesn't run off the normal mechanics.
You still don't go 'poof dead n' gone' from having it railed against you. MotA was written to be usable, not a suicide mission of the highest order.
Still, you cannot prevent the accumulation of the Paradox, but with Prime 9 you can throw it around.

4. God retaliating is the common end statement for the 'Caine vs Archmage' argument. We also have no basis as to who would win such an encounter. God didn't challenge The Unnamed in Hell on Earth, but he did step down during Gehenna. Both are equally enormous in capability, but there's still no way to determine who'd win in a fight with God and an Archmage.
Mixing the Arch-Spheres is supposedly enough to supersede God as is. Prime 9 / Forces 9 being one such example. Ten dots is supposedly omnipotence according to certain passages.

5. Caine is very much bound to the Disciplines, but he isn't bound to their specific purviews. He can improvise, as is his power. It's a great advantage.


In all honesty, the question as to whether or not an Archmage can take Caine 1v1 is fairly evident in answer. The Archmage is going to win. The seven-fold curse is easily worked around or overpowered using Entropy 4, Life 4, Matter 4, Prime 6 as the Rote inquires.
The real debate is whether the Archmage could triumph over God, which is quite possible

>>52976463
>1
You didn't provide any actual examples.

Are you going to propose something like "A mage just comes in and read a vampire mind to find out" Well, it doesn't work like that for the simplest of reasons, he would need to search for that particular information, or having a Vampire obsessed about Caine as much as this thread fags make me appear to be. Again Thereoretical.

>2
Again, I'm not saying that the skill isn't strong, I'm just saying that it doesn't come without consenguences, and that's by the book.

>3
Wouldn't only be natural for a ST to do a mirrored effect or something of the same magnitude of the spell casted? You can argue about the method, not the common logic. You may say that MotA was written to be played, but I would like to remind you that was also the case for Wraith, in pratice the AS aren't really playable without huge conseguences or without using it in your realm. Also the book didn't say that you can throw it around, but it says that messing with the paradox with prime would make it worse (that like the fourth time)

>4
I doubt so, even if every Arch Mage is so powerful, it still has but a fragment of what it's to be considered "God's Soul" just imagine its being in comparison to the multitude of humanity.
Also, Implying that a mage would be able to have two level 9 Spheres is quite Theoretical and unlikely.

>5 There is no real and conclusive source to that.

>>52976663
>I doubt so, even if every Arch Mage is so powerful, it still has but a fragment of what it's to be considered "God's Soul" just imagine its being in comparison to the multitude of humanity.
The 'Shard' theory is based around Demon the Fallen, and isn't set in stone as canon.

>>52975199
Matter antimatter explosions don't have a mystical nature. Also the mage that is casting is on the other side of the planet

>>52976760
To be fair another anon quotes it as a Celestial Chorus creed, so no, I don't think that's true.

Demon theory is that humanity has some potential within that wasn't able to use because of its "Ignorance" the fallen just provided them with awareness and knowledge.