Why do players think it's okay to intentionally ignore plot

>>52960636
Have you tried telling them that?

>>52960636
Did you try talking to them? Maybe they ignored you hook because they 1) didn't like the look of where it was leading, or 2) wanted to do something else specific.

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>>52960636

Plan more hooks. You have to be ready for your players to go in a weird direction.

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>>52960636
>not creating the illusion of choice

>>52960680
>>52960685
>Have you tried talking to them

They said they're doing it to make me learn to improv better. They said it was an "intervention"

I work an actual job for real-person money. I planned a dungeon, not a fucking open world west marches hex crawl

>>52960636

No plan survives the meeting with the players, yet planning is essential. Embrace organic growth between you and your players.

>Why do players think it's okay to intentionally ignore plot hooks

nobody ever wants to feel that they are being controlled.

Create the illusion of choice, dont let them know what the hook is, then the first thing they get invested in leads to the hook.

>>52960758
>I work an actual job for real-person money.
what kind of job anon?

Sounds like you have it rough.

>>52960636
Maybe your plot hooks are shit and nobody wants to follow them?

>>52960816
Even if they are shit, pre planned stuff is generally better than the improved stuff.

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>>52960758
well you have a choice

>go east
plot hook
>go west
plot hook
>fuck you we're camping here
wake up in the night with plot hook
>we're not goi...
PLOT HOOK

one way to deal with it besides the illusion of choice is to incentivise the players to the main plot hook, make sure that they know that following the main story will lead to the greatest rewards, not just in terms of gear and levels but also other stuff like becoming a noble or learning valuable secrets.

>>52960836

That depends a lot on the players and the GM. If one of the players is a schemer, you get hours of plot development for free.

1. Quantum Ogres.

"Random" or "intermediate" encounters really pad out the session, give powergamers and murderhobos a chance to jack off, and give the party XP and loot.

Whether you go east or west, there's 2d4 ogres guarding [a mountain pass/a bridge/the exit to the grove]. One of them is holding a bedraggled-looking peasant strapped to a stick as an improvised cudgel.

> "Please save me!" he screams.

Roll for initiative.

2. Multiple plot hooks.

Write additional plot hooks. Sometimes east is where shit is going down. Maybe they run into a mysterious traveler who offers to pay them to go west, and is a sign that something is off. Maybe there are unforeseen consequences from running from the quest, that continue to happen until the party addresses the problem or someone else does.

> The storm to the east is intensifying, and the lightning casts an eerie glow across the forest.

3. Just bullshit.

This is the most fun option, but it's not for everyone. I had done minimal prep work, and the Paladin cast a divination spell in a tavern full of orcs and nasty creatures.

> There's a table full of dark elves near the fireplace. They speak in low voices, and something about them doesn't feel right even in this ominous place. You sense a weak aura of Chaos magic around them.
> Player: "Wait, I thought that dark elves were Lawful in this setting."
> I know. It's weird, right?

That particular exchange kicked off three sessions of material that was pulled from somewhere deep inside my ass, and ended with the Paladin getting transformed into a giant ape and drowning a demonic drake in a lava flow.

you need to reverse psychology your players.

>hello travelers, would help us with a goblin infestation, we can pay well.
>no thanks
>yea, you guys dont look up to it.
>fuck you old man, where are those goblins?

>>52960989
>That particular exchange kicked off three sessions of material that was pulled from somewhere deep inside my ass, and ended with the Paladin getting transformed into a giant ape and drowning a demonic drake in a lava flow.

Story time.

You know the deal.

>>52960841
More elegantly, "modularizing".
Make a plot hook module of ambiguous geographical origin that the players wander into.
Re-name the elements as necessary to avoid it being the same exact thing.

They end up where you say they end up. The town is the town you want them to be in. They may have chosen a field over the dungeon, but you still have control over, well, everything. The field is what you say it is. Remember the poppies from the Wizard of Oz? Remember the Swordsward from the Spellsinger books? Don't just let them leave, start marching forth goblins out of that grass. They were too short to be seen in the first place. Drive the players into an escape route, make them enter the dungeon. Make it sound like you were going easy on them by letting them into the dungeon, instead of Deathtrap Meadows. Carrion Crawlers, facehuggers, purple worms, exploding dragon dung mushrooms, evil brownies. "That's right, the grass was full of brownies, not the brownies were full of grass." If all else fails, break out the Dire Cow Vampires. Mistakes are meant to be exciting!

>>52961121
MY GOBLINS ARE TOO POWERFUL FOR YOU TRAVELER

Players do this when playing in a system where they have no meaningful agency in the fiction, like D&D. Rebeling against the rails is the only way for their choices to matter.

You would be surprised how many seemingly system-unrelated problems suddenly stop the moment you play an actual roleplaying game (i.e. with roleplaying mechanics) instead of D&D.

>>52960989
>That particular exchange kicked off three sessions of material that was pulled from somewhere deep inside my ass, and ended with the Paladin getting transformed into a giant ape and drowning a demonic drake in a lava flow.

Oi.

You can't just drop a line like that and not share.

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Here's a thought op:

>Quantum/Schrödinger's Plot Hooks

That way, you don't need to fret anymore.

If "I decide to go west" breaks your game you may have some larger issues, Anon.

>>52960989
Or, you know... bait the hook.
Make it somehow important to the pcs, not just an other 'do quest, get xp, get gold', which is fun but not what they're looking for this time.

>>52960700
>>52960636
Plan less easily derailed hooks.

>>52963106
He's saying that he pulled a deep lava flow from his ass, it smelled like a demon died in it.

>>52960758
>They said it was an "intervention"
Literally kick them out.

>>52961486
>>52963106
And that's how you create a plot hook players will want to follow.

>>52960758
It seems like you expect different things from game. Either seek for common ground, or dont play RPG with them.

If they're your friends, do something different. Maybe LAN party, maybe trip or urbex. If they're just random people you play ttrpg with, find different people. Nothing wrong with that.

>They said they're doing it to make me learn to improv better.
Either they're dicks, or your GMing suck. If former, run. If latter, learn. You've got this, OP!

>>52960816
Either OP's plot hooks are shit or his players are shit. Or both. If they dont enjoy OP's plot hooks, they should tell him and not derail game.

I think its good idea to tell players what kind of campaign you want to play, quite possibly with minor spoilers, so that they can prepare characters interested in plot.

>>52960758
>They said it was an "intervention"
Fuck that, time to bring on the railroad if they wanna play that game

>>52960636
Do you CHOOSE to DM the game? It sounds like your players think you suck at it.

I'm betting that, over the last few sessions/attempts/games, they played out your plot hooks, but any time they tried anything you hadn't directly planned for, it was shit. Probably to the point where they are talking to an NPC, and you couldn't come up with a reasonable name, and just spouted memes.

>>52960758
>They said it was an "intervention"

"That's dandy. You actually don't do that and follow the plothook. Railroading? No, it's an intervention."

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>>52960636
>Why do players think it's okay to intentionally ignore plot hooks
Because there are no consequences and it allows them to cherrypick what they want to do. If you want them to take a plot hook, make sure there are repercussions for it. Just use two guidelines:
1. Don't be petty, don't personally punish player characters (like giving them leveling penalties or harder dungeons because they ignored your plot hook)
2. Don't go too far. Make sure that you always keep a back entrance available to return to the plot hook.

Example
>Generic NPC questgiver mayor wants the PCs to help with a goblin infestation
>PCs decide that's not their style/the lewt isn't phat enough and do something else
>They return to find half of the city burned down and the other half barricaded and surrounded by a wooden pallisade
>Questgiver mayor begs them to help them
>PCs ignore you again
>Next time the town is entirely gone, and the goblin infestation has spread to [PC's hometown] where [PC's family] lives
>Are you a bad enough dude to save your own fucking family?
If this doesn't convince them, then they're simply not interested in playing.

>>52963206
>Quantum/Schrödinger's Plot Hooks
Do we assign to the Copenhagen Interpretation of Quantum Physics, or the Many Worlds theory? Are there multiple timelines, one where a certain plot hook was accepted and another where it was rejected? Can we dimension hop between these alternate timelines to collect the phattest lewt?

>>52963434
>Do we assign to the Copenhagen Interpretation of Quantum Physics, or the Many Worlds theory? Are there multiple timelines, one where a certain plot hook was accepted and another where it was rejected? Can we dimension hop between these alternate timelines to collect the phattest lewt?
The position of your plot hooks in time and space only exists once you observe them. example.
>alright, I have notes and plans for goblins attacking a caravan and orcs trying to corral worgs that got loose.
>Ok players, which way to you go?
>that way huh? Alright, after about an hour of travelling you.. (roll dice for effect) encounter a caravan, it is being attacked by gobling raiders. what do you do?
this isn't fucking rocket science. Slavishly obeying the "reality" of your setting is gonna give you heartache even when your players will politely jump onto the tracks because you're not Disney.

also what >>52961121 said. Easiest way to get needlessly contrarian players in line is just have everyone treat them like garbage.

>>52960758
>They said they're doing it to make me learn to improv better. They said it was an "intervention"
Find a new group.

>>52960758
Yes, it probably was.

Protip: when 4+ players say you should stop railroading and start listening to them, they are probably right.

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>>52963854
protp: 4+ idiots don't magically become right just because they agree with one another.

>>52963905
Well if you're the only one in the room who thinks that you're right, chances are you're either in the wrong group or you're actually wrong.

>>52960636
Are you really crying about this?

Never build Frankensteins, always skeletons.

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>>52960636
For most of our sessions, I've been the only player who's been pushing for us to actually do things, while everyone else has been wanting us to do nothing. When I finally gave up, the GM was utterly shocked at this completely obvious turn of events, and as it turns out he only plans for one single eventuality, the whole thing crashed.

What I'm saying is, I know how you feel, but after a certain point it's your own fault for not reading the mood like a functional human being.

>My reaction never

>>52963930
Objectively true.

>>52960636
Because they're not interested in the plot you're hooking them into.

>>52960942
>>52960953
>>52961524
These are good advice, some of the others are, also.

You are not required to improve an entire sandbox campaign if you don't want to.
A game does not belong to the DM or the players, it is everyone's game.

Do the characters have any kind of background or personality? If so, use it.
If not, they might be playing WoW on your time.
Options:
Tell one of them to run a game.
Shelve your dungeon for another day and grab a published module that they say they say are interested in.
>>52963636
This would have made me angry.

A DM needs to be able to improve situations, but doesn't have to put up with jerks.

Briefly describe the characters, and we will probably be able to assess the situation better.

Saying "hey, I planned for you guys to explore the Chamber of Orchiectomy tonight. Why don't we play a boardgame and I'll work up what happens when you wander West for next week" can be a decent last resort approach.

Having the dungeon/ambush/whatever happen wherever the players want to travel works alright too.

The best option though is to invoke past adventures and the characters' backstories to get the players interests. A peddler swears they saw the BBEG on their way to the ruins. A child is missing from the orphanage where one of the players grew up. That sort of thing.

>We're going West this week!
>But all roads lead to Rome.
Everyone's situation is different, but I usually only plan out basic scenario details, character motivations, and a few set pieces.
Players wander around doing whatever the hell they feel like, but what they feel like doing always winds up being what I planned. It's a matter of reading the table, seeing what the players are doing, and finding the best way to get them involved.
If you listen to /tg/, everything secretly being on rails makes me a terrible GM/That Guy/Railroading Faggot, but like you said, you have a job/life, you can't plan for every possible situation that may arise.
Also, I've been in a game where everything was truly improvised and everything we encountered was rolled for off a chart-- It was truly the most boring game I ever played. Holy shit was that bad.

>>52964276
>Holy shit was that bad.

Curious why exactly it was bad. Was it because there was no continuity to any of the encounters?

Honestly I work full time job and an extra job while DMing. It is harsh but to keep away from railroading I ask my players a week in advance what they want to do. I generally have some quickly made up tiny ideas that after I have the vote I decide how it all fits then pick out some characters motives and what enemies are probably close by. I know one day I hunted to a nation up north as a fake noble seal and the party nearly went North away from everything, but I prepared myself and figured out how it could fit in, I was almost sad that one player told them how silly it was to just go to a far north nation because it sounded cool

>>52961642
I would like your finest goblins, quest-seller.

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>>52960636
>planning an obvious plot hook
>not planning a skeleton plot and having the players fill in the blanks

Remember, THEY don't know what you had planned. Not unless you played your hand too heavily.
So what if the plot hook was going to eventually end up in spoopy skelly pirates? How will the players know that going east will make them encounter a spoopy secret pirate cover?
Or that going west will make them encounter a spoopy pirate underground lake?
Or that...

If the players keep going far enough down the hook to know what's happening, then keep rejecting it, those players are assholes.

>>52964388
not that poster, but there's no continuity and no motivation to do anything. Random overworld encounters are usually boring because there's no reason for this fight to even happen. At best it's just there as a resource drain

Do your best to make the improvisational story entertaining, but ultimately fruitless. Minimal GP and XP gain, make their character growth noticeably slow to a crawl.
Tough adventure shit doesn't just happen, they have to sniff it out. Sometimes when you "feel like going west" it turns out that there's barely fucking anything out west.
The illusion of choice is always the most palatable solution though.

>>52961121
>Negging the players to get them to take bait
Fuck that's honestly good advice.

>>52960636
>Why do players think it's okay to intentionally ignore plot hooks
Because it is?

Maybe you need to get better at crafting your plots if they're regularly getting ignored.

>All evil campaign
>Setting has all evil races like Drow and Orcs domesticated in an authoritarian society comprised of various cities
>Party are just some outcasts that live in the wasteland between cities
>We go into a city to look for someone willing to deliver food to us regularly in exchange for gold
>A drow elf suspected of being evil is about to be executed in public
>The party being full of evil, selfish fucks, no one feels the desire to save her
>GM just ind of improvises a section inside a train caravan's headquarters where we try to wheel and deal with people, while some of us look for caravan schedules for us to loot if it goes south
>After the game the DM tells me the entire plot of the campaign hinged on the character we let get killed, and now he has to figure something else out

Why do DM's do this? Why have the whole story hinge on something the party isn't obligated to deal with? He did a good job of catering to our evil whims, tho.

>>52960779
Actually the best advice in the thread

>>52965672
So any reason they expected an evil party to suddenly play hero? Should have baited that hook with the drow having knowledge of some huge treasure or whatever

>>52963402
> I think its good idea to tell players what kind of campaign you want to play, quite possibly with minor spoilers, so that they can prepare characters interested in plot.

I've had a lot of DM's get me real excited with their setting and I put a lot of effort into a character with flavor. Even Joe McSwordandShield Fighter I give motivations, hopes, dreams. Then my DM actaully just railroads us along never acknowledging any of the players motivations or personal goals and catering to the inevitable 1-2 Murderhobos in the group. Every time. Dozens of Campaigns. maybe have had 2 that work well. Why I don't play TTG at all anymore.

>>52960636
Because you plot hooks suck, your story sucks, and your players are letting you know that by rebelling.

Git gud or get over yourself.

>>52960758
Intervene them right out the fucking door.

>>52960636
Craft more enticing hooks, or just deal with the fact that some hooks will be ignored.

>>52960758
Sounds like you do need to work on your improv.

Or just admit to them that improvisational DMing isn't your thing, and let one of them DM if that's the game they want to play.

>>52960758
I was going to say something about overthinking, but it sounds like your players are cunts.

>>52960636
We have a very "off script" group. They seem to try to actively ignore the DM's hooks. I'm best friends with the DM and I tend to talk to the players 1 on 1 when we're playing other games to figure out what they're thinking and let the DM know. As such every time one of our lolrandumb PCs has a ridiculous idea, the DM magically has already planned for it.

>>52960758
Instead of Improv, time to try the Broken Bridge and Level Capped world.

The way is blocked, travel is closed, your empire will not let you leave, their empire will not let you enter, the bridge has literally been burned, and the only way arround is combination of sheer cliffed frozen burning jungle Tarrasque country.

But maybe if you complete this quest you can get the bridge repaired. No no, don't try fixing it, yourselves, they will shoot fire arrows at you and burn it again. Did you miss the bit with the empires? You need to convince at least one side to stop shooting fire arrows and possibly stop the other side from doing it. And right now, who the fuck are you to them?

You want through, you earn it. Go east, solve problem, or why risk so much blood for you?

>>52965864
Yeah, he just kind of said "Ok, you're at your base which has these three NPC's. One says you need food. There's a bandit camp two days to the south, and a town one day west."

I guess he wanted us to think "Oh, we could use more allies" and save her, but that's not how my character does things, so I didn't think about it.

He's a first time DM, so I'm not going to be too hard on him. I'll probably see how tonight's session goes and give him a few pointers. He's made a very ambitious setting, from stuff he's told me beforehand.

>>52964557
>Monster Manuel's Slightly Used Goblin Emporium
>For all your dungeon infestation needs

>>52961121
This is good advice.
Also, just start the encounter with something annoying or insulting.
>the Thief has stolen your horses from the stable.
>He took the time to carve "You'll have to find new horses to fuck, horse fuckers. These ones are mine. :P" in the wood of the stall.

Or just dump them in the situation and they have to figure it out themselves.
>A young girl covered in blood runs screaming from a nearby house.
>Three angry armed men follow her.
>She ducks behind [x party member], burying her face in their skirts.
>Please don't let them hurt me anymore!, she cries.

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Give them a reason to hang out near the goalpoint.
I used to have wandering PC issues until I started adding comedy NPCs and minor quests to every hub town.
It gives them something to do in between major missions and makes them feel like they have more control over what they do without them having to go anywhere.
Other than that moving the goalpost is usually a good idea when they decide to fuck off in the wrong direction.

>>52960636
They are probably inexperienced and don't even realize what they're doing. I noticed this was something even I had a problem with early on; I wasn't familiar enough with the way these games are managed and so I didn't realize I was doing anything wrong when I was "ignoring plothooks" or just generally making the GM's job a pain in the ass. I got a lot better about this when I started DMing myself, and learned first hand how hard it is to herd the feral cats that comprise most player groups. It's difficult to really do this for everyone, but try rotating GM duty once in a while. Players will realize what a difficult job it can be, and not only more willing to cooperate, but more able to recognize whether they're being constructive to the campaign or making a mess of it.

Sounds like a decent idea.

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>>52966641
Make the journey colorful enough so the only people jumping over the edges are the ones who didn't want to play to begin with.

>>52966524
>If your goblin comes mangled, maimed, or otherwise unfit for duty, you can return it at no charge!

>>52966740
This is an idea too, but that sort of includes the "build more plot hooks" idea.

>>52960636
You have a bunch of solutions.
1: Quantum hooks. Every hook leads to the same thing, they're going to bite eventually.
2. Hooks with consequences. When the players ignore the hook, it comes back to bite 'em in the ass. Congrats, while you were fucking around the necromancer completed his ritual and now undead are destroying the town where your HQ is located. So hurry the fuck up and don't mess up again.
3. Player-driven sandbox campaign. Don't prep shit and base everything on what your PCs are doing.
4. OOC talk. "Hey guys, you've spend two sessions planning a trip to the Darklands of Evilbad. I had a whole kickass dungeon planned there. I'd rather you don't suddenly go west to explore Whatever Plains, because I'll have to throw it out. It's not fun for me, plus you keep doing that sort of thing."

Just put all yo shit in the west.

>>52966879
See your problem is you're and idiot
>4. OOC talk. "Hey guys, you've spend two sessions planning a trip to the Darklands of Evilbad. I had a whole kickass dungeon planned there. I'd rather you don't suddenly go west to explore Whatever Plains, because I'll have to throw it out. It's not fun for me, plus you keep doing that sort of thing."
Or you can just not mention it at all and just put the dungeon into the Whatever Plains and refluff it.

>>52963930
A billion smokers can't be wrong!

>>52967102
Well if you're the only one bothered by the smell of cigarettes then maybe you'd be better off leaving than trying to get them to stop smoking. The same applies if you're the only one smoking in the room and everyone else is giving you dirty looks while you puff up in their living room.

>>52967064
Your suggestion is literally the first solution he listed, so I'm not sure why you're complaining.

>>52960636
I was in a situation like this one, years ago. A player would go out of his way to derail the story and go in random directions. No reason for it, he just wanted to fuck with the dm.

Later he convinced the group to let him DM a game. He was the most controlling, insane, CHOO CHOO MOTHERFUCKERS dm i have ever had the misfortune of playing under. Try to do anything not in his plot, he would just straight up kill your character. He, several times, ignored game mechanics to force through his plot.

So my thought is the people that get off on ignoring plot hooks are all trying to prove their superiority and bolster their (lacking) self worth. They're all like 'See? If I was DM I'd never let this shit fly, because i'm a great DM and this guy isn't.'

Man, I don't get this at all. I mean, I get wanting to feel player agency, but personally I'm really excited to see what my DM has in store for my group. Dude's got a lot of intricacies already laid out that will make things really interesting going forward, and just saying "Fuck that, go west" seems dumb.

>>52967150
>The same applies if you're the only one smoking in the room and everyone else is giving you dirty looks while you puff up in their living room.

Last time someone did this, I just broke their vaper.

In my defense, he had been told multiple times by the rest of the group to stop because we don't like the smell of it.

>>52966641
>He took the time to carve "You'll have to find new horses to fuck, horse fuckers. These ones are mine. :P" in the wood of the stall.
Thanks anon, made me laugh.

>>52960758
Tell them to DM instead.

>>52967378
>A player would go out of his way to derail the story and go in random directions. No reason for it, he just wanted to fuck with the dm.

I had to deal with a single player like this, but he also had the misfortune of not knowing basic facts about the campaign that were mentioned multiple times. Like the time he tried to take a sailboat far out of the mainland (to go on "le epick random adventure xD" you see) and fell off the edge of the earth and died.

We had been playing in the campaign for months and the fact that the world was currently flat was common knowledge that got repeated multiple times.

It's even funnier when these people try to rally the rest of the group about "Wow instant kill CHOO CHOO, what a fucking shit DM amirite guys?" and just get blank stares because everyone else thinks he's being a fucking idiot.

>>52967483
>In my defense, he had been told multiple times by the rest of the group to stop because we don't like the smell of it.
You could've just, y'know, just told him not to come back. Vapers are expensive and if he wanted to, he could've taken you to small claims over the damage to his property.

>>52960636
Then make it have consequences.

You didn't follow the lead you saw? Well no-one else is going to save this place, so you're going to have to deal with the fallout later.

>>52967983
but the guy realized he was acting like a complete dick so he didn't make a big fuzz about it and bought a new one.

>>52968018
I'm just saying man, some people are petty enough to take you to court over a few hundred bucks of property damage.

Good to hear he stopped being a faggot about it though, so cheers on that.

>>52968049
and "some people" are crazy enough to storm into your session and axemurder the whole group, does that mean you shouldn't throw anyone out?
eh, the guy learned his lession. Finding someone new can be tiring.

>>52960636
So they head west and they find the plot.

>>52967983
We told him to stop multiple times. He refused, so we made it stop being a problem. How expensive vapers are isn't my problem.

Predictably he threw a tantrum and left, never coming back. Not for lack of trying anyways. He got kicked out of three other groups for the same thing and tried to come back to us a few times. We just shut the door in his face every time.

>>52960758
>They said they're doing it to make me learn to improv better.

Next time kill their characters to make them learn to make better characters that don't ignore plothooks.

>>52966663
Nope they're explicitly doing it on purpose >>52960758

>>52968018
>>52968088

>>52968636

Now I want to know which of these stories is the real one.

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>>52969022
Let me clear it up then.

>>52969045
You probably didn't have to break his device like a child, surely you could have come up with a more mature way to get him to leave?
If he threw tantrums he should have been right at home in your group by the sounds of it.

>>52969159
We gave him multiple warnings. If he doesn't take them seriously, not my problem. He was also the only one who cared incidentally.

Maybe it'll teach him not to use it when people say not to. If he can find another group that is, since most of the ones in town kicked him out for the vaping problem.

>>52969159
>>52969225
Different anon joining the convo. The initial post makes it sound like you just stood up and broke it like a total autist, but if you warned him you'd break it if he didn't stop, then I think it is very justified. Those types of people are pretty common, they have a severe resistance to listening and think they can brush things off indefinitely so people will ignore/forget the issue.

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>>52960636
>>52960758
OP here. I've had time to cool off, sleep, and go to work. I'm surprised that this thread is still here, so I guess I can explain what's going on a bit more clearly.

I built my campaign with a sort of "darkest dungeons" theme in mind, though more in structure than in theme. There was a gigantic dungeon that had appeared, one day. I built it by cribbing from a bunch of "megadungeons" published online late last year, and then a hub town outside it where players could buy gear before delving the dungeon or sell stuff they found when they went back to the surface.

I told players very clearly that was my vision for the campaign when it started. I said that every week they would take their characters into the dungeon, explore whatever floor, maze, or chamber they decided to go to to (it branched off in a bunch of directions), and if they survived the session they would get XP and gold and delve again with those characters next week. It worked for a couple weeks, but more and more the players have decided they'd be "better equipped" to handle challenges if they explored the world, kicked over some goblin or bandit camps, and came back to the dungeon later.

I've explained, over and over, that there is no world map outside the town and the near 60-page notebook worth of dungeon rooms I have. Finishing this megadungeon was the last big rpg-related thing I did before starting a real job, and I do not have the time or the energy to put that much care and detail into other parts of the world.

But they insist that I need to be more "flexible" with my campaign. They insist that my dungeon will be more fun if they can explore the outside world and find other adventures to earn gear from.

So week after fucking week now, they "go west" because they feel like it, and I bullshit new ogre caves on the spot, and they talk about how it's helping me learn to be a better GM, and the notebook of stuff I actually want to do sits there.

I want to murder them all.

>>52963930
>The majority of people believe something false is true even if it can be proven as false
>Welp they're correct because they are the majority

Democracy was a mistake

>>52971385
"A truth that can't be convincingly argued is an undeserving truth, nonetheless."

>>52971385
You just need to give people democratic control of things they actually understand well - for instance their own workplaces, rather than foreign policy. The actual issue with democracy is a professional political class that isn't actually interested in democracy except as a pr tool and has every incentive to keep political discourse at a level that keeps the populace ignorant and easily manipulated.

Sorry for the derail, but the OP should be used to it.

>>52971324
I'd play your megadungeon, anon-kun

>>52971324
Reduce the overworld to random encounters, with enemies and treasure generated from whatever official or fan-made sources you prefer. They know perfectly well the dungeon is the focus of the campaign, but a minigame where they go and hunt bounties in the overworld might actually give both of you a break from the intricately detailed dungeon crawling.

If they complain that the string of monsters they fight above ground lacks cohesion and any sort of plot structure, point out that that's the best you can hope for when your entire plan for finding treasure and experience is to spin a compass needle and strike out blindly.

>>52960756
This. You're the problem, DM, not your players.

>>52971605
I was tempted to say that too but reading >>52971324 it sounds like the players actually are just shitters

>>52971324
Take random rooms from your big dungeon and make smaller, 5-room dungeons out of them.

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>>52971324
In their absence, another party of adventurers should start delving the mega-dungeon and claiming treasure from within. Let them dick around with >>52971580 but when the get back to the mega-dungeon, have them find fewer rewards as they now have competition.

If you really want to fuck with them, let them wander into a kingdom's lands, then get arrested under suspicion of banditry (who else but bandits would be so well armed?) This should be the nuclear option if they continue to be asshats about it after trying the first option.

I feel for you. I have a player who constantly tries to derail things. He killed a Rogue Trader game by playing his rogue trader like an Inquisitor, despite the rest of the party wanting to be rogue traders.

>>52969596
It was less the multiple warnings, and more that he respond that tone by just blowing smoke in someone's gave when they asked him to put it away that set me off that time. If not for that, he probably would have just been booted, vape intact.

>>52971324
Make it so the dungeon is taking over the landscape and everything they do just leads them back there in ways that make no physical sense.

>>52972120
Alternatively, have the dungeon spew out monsters waaaay more powerful than they're equipped to handle since they've neglected it for so long.

If it kills them, oh well.

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>>52971324
Your players are absolute shitheads

>>52973854
Continuing my thought 'cause I hit send too soon: don't let them go west. You made it clear what the focus is and point of the campaign is, force them into it or don't run for them.

>>52971990
See, that's the escalation point that you missed. You gotta add that sort of thing otherwise you sound like you just spazzed out and snapped it.

>>52971324
Senile wizard gets pissed that the adventurers are on his lawn and teleports them to the dungeon.

>>52968636
You're a retarded bully desu
Don't like him? Tell him to get out. You don't beat people up or break their stuff.

>>52960779
Investing in this post.

>>52975436

Stop being a fucking pussy.

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>>52971324
If they piss around long enough, Grimrock that shit.

Bait the players into doing something bad, like murdering a village of good aligned goblinoids.
Do the "arrested for banditry thing" from >>52971885

Then, have the king sentence them to the dungeon, teleporting them to the "start". The rest of the campaign can be them getting out of the dungeon.

Granted, this option is going to get a lot of complaints from the party, but they'll either leave or thank you later.

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>>52972164
Alternatively alternatively, they are attacked by Dungeon Man.

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>>52960636
Are you sure they're ignoring you, or are you just playing it close to the vest?

Also first cardinal sin of being a GM? Planning every little thing.

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>>52977299
>Bait the players into a screw job

You must be a treat to have as a GM.

>>52971324
just make it boring
pastures, farms, roads, and not one bad guy in sight
let the megadungeon be the evil (and fun) of your world.

>>52977510
>>52971324

>>52977536
My players like what I put out.

Which leads to the issue OP has: His players seem to not want to compromise with the DM. There is a give and take of DMing. Players have to be willing to stay, if not on the rails, then at least on the same road as the DM. And there's a difference from the players stumbling off the trail because they think they found a plot hook, which a DM can turn into an actual plot hook next session, and "I don't wanna even try the dungeon the DM has been slaving over"

>>52960636
Have your problems, quests, &etc get solved by other adventurers, who become filthy rich in public based on what you wanted them to do.

"Oh, yeah, we found this dungeon after these dear old people pointed us to these goblins raiding them. There was a lot of totally sweet stuff, all those things you wanted from the DMG that one time, +2 weapons, loads of money. We're going to go retire, we're good now. Oh, the cave? No we looted the shit out of it, it's ours now."

"Did you have fun fighting a bunch of filthy bandits for cheap silver and fucking about with goblins on the surface? Hah, what a bunch of scrubwork, am I right? Well, don't worry - You'll find something worthy of your time someday, I'm sure. too bad you didn't get into this one before we came along, though! Ha! Ha!"

Once or twice of hearing that their loot got nicked because they wanted to "level up" or because they had better ideas of what sort of adventure they wanted. Especially if you telegraph it really obviously.

>>52971324

So, basically, Diablo I.

It sounds like they're just getting flat worn out by the epic dungeon crawl. They probably want to do some roleplaying.

When they head out west, inform them that they tirelessly travel through endless farmland; or alternatively, that they endlessly travel through tiresome farmland, until at last they find a copse of trees. Call for willpower saves, DC 30 - NOT magic, so immunity to mind-affecting powers is of no consequence. They're simply fucking bored out of their skulls, and when they fail and investigate the copse of trees (presuming they do fail,) they find in the center a bunch of standing stones, most of them toppled, but two arches remain standing.

One arch leads back to the town they left, DungeonTown.
The other leads to a town that looks like a complete and total clusterfuck, people packed together, coughing, occasional cries of despair. That portal looks unstable, and it's pretty clearly a one-way trip.

If they take that portal?
> Welcome to Neverwinter.
>> Hope you like plagues.

Just straight-up rip off Neverwinter Nights, or whatever. Don't even try to file off the serial numbers, just straight-up hurl them right into a D&D video game with their party in place of the standard protagonists.

>>52971324
>the players have decided they'd be "better equipped" to handle challenges if they explored the world, kicked over some goblin or bandit camps, and came back to the dungeon later.
This sounds like they are getting bored of the simple grind and trying to tell you without telling you...

>So week after fucking week now, they "go west" because they feel like it, and I bullshit new ogre caves on the spot, and they talk about how it's helping me learn to be a better GM, and the notebook of stuff I actually want to do sits there.
Yeah, unless they're enjoying other roleplaying elements that you added but are not telling us, they are just shit.
Especially since they are ignoring the game everyone signed on for in favor of random nothing.
I can see a lot of reasons to not want to play the same megadungeon every week but:
A. They signed up for it.
B. They want random nonsense functionally no better than the dungeon instead.

The closest I can get to imagining the mindset behind this is that they believe "improvised games are inherently better than planned games".
This is a meme corrupted from the truth that "a GM that can improvise with the players is better than one that cannot or will not".
But humanity being what it is, it is far more likely that your players are just shit.


I had a whole point locked and loaded that is entirely unrelated, but might benefit somebody:
A GM I had once presented us with an abandoned haunted inn alongside the road.
Nobody in the group had the slightest reason to investigate it.
None.
But we all bit the plot hook because it was clearly what he had prepared that day's session to be about.
It still bothers me that he didn't even consider our motivations.
Number one rule of plot hooks is to bait the friggin' hook.
Another great rule is to bait dozens of hooks, scatter them on the ground, and see which one the party steps barefoot on.

>>52973880
>don't let them go west. You made it clear what the focus is and point of the campaign is, force them into it or don't run for them.
This

>>52978247
>They probably want to do some roleplaying.
I considered this.
But then why do they tell anon that by generating random ogre caves they are " helping anon learn to be a better GM"?
This implies that by simply killing random ogres, they are getting what they want.

Again, unless OP is roleplaying out all kinds of other things they are enjoying and simply not telling us about it.

That said, I like your response scenario.

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>>52961524
I myself naturally cleave to modular design of sessions. What I do though is figure out where the PCs will start, usually by telling my players about the game-world and asking them what kind of character they want to make prior to the first session. Once I get that feedback I try to figure out a location in my setting where such a motley crew would meet and then I begin to flesh out the immediate area around the starting point so that way no matter where the PCs go there is adventure to be had.

Another option is to toss the players into a situation they must resolve from the start. One of my more enjoyable beginnings to a game was having the PCs being arrested and meeting-up in a temporary holding facility where they have 5 days to devise an escape or risk being sent to an actual trial in an area where the legal process is very strict.

>>52978372
Better yet, have *three* portals operational.

The third one leads to a dwarven fortress in the mountains somewhere. It appears that the place has been besieged, the Dwarves are fighting off what looks like trained war-beasts, and the supply situation appears to be somewhat grim, from the way Dwarves are risking death to dart out and loot the boots of their fallen comrades. Could you be the heroes to turn this shit around?

> Go through Portal 3.
>> Welcome to fucking Boatmurdered.
>>> Hope you like miasma!

>>52961486
>>52963106

> Arcane Trickster approaches drow, Paladin approaches the bartender
> Bartender is a leader of a crime gang, is interested in something called the Chalice of Sin
> Drow leader is the leader of a (legal) cult that tracks down and destroys diabolical artifacts for the glory of their demon goddess
> One such artifact is called the Chalice of Sin
> Both are willing to pay top coin for the Chalice to be retrieved
> Paladin and Arcane Trickster reconvene, decide that they need to get that fucking Chalice

What you have to understand is that everyone in the party is roughly equivalent to a member of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia. They get excited and start shouting one idiotic idea after another. Everyone's on the gas, nobody's on the brakes, and absolutely no one is thinking.

> They decide to pit the Mafia against an actual demon cult in a bidding war
> Party ventures forth in search of clues to find the Chalice so they can get their leverage
> Arcane Trickster makes her Investigation checks
> I go to Donjon.bish, randomly generate a simple dungeon with devils as the theme
> Party spends the better part of a session fighting devils and undead while I play looping MIDIs from RPGs from the 90s
> Party retrieves the Chalice
> Returns to the tavern, where the drow are still drinking
> Sorcerer explains the situation
> The mob leader is delighted by party's business acumen
> The drow leader starts shrieking curses
> Mob boss orders patrons to turn their axes on the dark elves
> Drow escape through window
> Boss leader looks at party and says "So, looks like I win by default, eh?"

>>52978626
Ah, The Dread Tomb Rue.

>>52978861

Later:

> Return to main quest
> Party encounters countess who says that her lands are being ravaged by demons
> A cult is planning on summoning a powerful demonic dragon to destroy the region
> awwshit.jpg
> Sorcerer and Paladin spend their considerable talents convincing the countess they have nothing to do with it and that the countess should help them
> "I can't promise you military support if my lands are on fire, can I?"
> Party can't fault her reasoning
> In a rare display of caution, decides to take their time on the approach and act stealthily
> Enters the cliffs and finds a familiar dark elf group
> Each has a different PC class and effectively acts as a boss for each section of the hidden cult grounds
> Finally, party confronts the drow leader in his den
> "You think you've stopped the ritual? You fools, I finished it four hours ago!"
> Fight against generic drow wizard ensues, except he's got backup
> Demon. Gorillas.
> After rough battle, drow is defeated, although he sends out a cry calling the drake back to destroy the party
> Party is basically out of consumables by this point, except for one spell from the dwarf Sorcerer
> Polymorph
> Sorcerer looks at dead gorillas, then at the Paladin
> 2 hours in game time later, the Paladin is in Giant Ape form, pummeling the drake into a river of lava
> He doesn't have as many hit points, but he's a hell of a lot stronger
> Drowns the drake in lava, then manages to climb up the cliff to safety just as he's damaged back into human form
> County is destroyed, thousands are dead, countess is pissed
> Flawless victory

>>52967064
Hey, sometimes refluffing just plain doesn't work. It can't fix every dungeon, especially if you made a mistake and planned something heavily interconnected, or with a lot of specific themed mechanics, or relying on a player not knowing a certain ability yet.

Depending on the group, your players may be more excited by learning you had a big dungeon planned than by being told 'ok sure, do whatever you want' and knowing you'll have to improvise.

>>52971324
Yeah, if you told your players "this is a megadungeon campaign" in session 0 and 1 both, and they were up for it, it's acceptable to tell them "hey guys please focus on this, thanks".
But in this case, you know, the players aren't ignoring your plot hooks. They're ignoring the session selling point. That's a whole different matter.
If they want to explore, that's kinda cool, I'd honestly reward my group for that*, but you can't do it and that's fine. It's the good old "incompatible fun" issue and you wouldn't be wrong if you took your player aside to have a talk.
If they can't live without the wilderness and accept that, no, really, GMing new shit on the fly is exhausting and not fun for you, then it's time to end the game.

*I'd probably verbally slap their shit if they came up with that condescending "intervention"/"making you flexible" crap though.

>>52977486
>"Oh yeah? Well the dungeon gets up and fucking chases you."

>>52960758
yeah nah next session you nominate the one who spoke first as new DM.

>>52971324
That's different then. Tell them once and for all, it's the dungeon or nothing.

>>52971885
>He killed a Rogue Trader game by playing his rogue trader like an Inquisitor, despite the rest of the party wanting to be rogue traders.

While it is very important to make sure the party is on the same page, this smacks of 'one true way'-ism something fierce.

>>52978956
The drake wrecked a county in four hours?

Are you sure it was a countess and not some hobo, and a county and not her vegetable garden?

>>52971324
Why would there be fucking ogre camps? Fuck that and fuck them. They can have fun walking around through a forest looking for fucking camps that don't even fucking exist because why the fuck would they. You can't just go "oh its fantasy so theres gotta be ogre camps" fuck no fuck them.

>>52980349
>But I have no notes!
>Improvise.

>>52971324
>So week after fucking week now, they "go west
Do this:
>You have reached the sea
>We go north
>You have reached the sea
>South
>You have reached the sea
>East
>You have reached the dungeon and a port, more east is the sea.
>You are on an cursed island where nobody leaves only goods form dungeon are exchanged with outside world.
Basically Gothic I plot but with sea instead of magic barrier. Key to lifting the curse is in dungeon.
Or Dungeon Meshi is also an island, I think

>>52960636
Sounds like this is healthy for you, OP. You need to learn to stop planning your adventures. It doesnt work out, and even if they do they're never as fun as you think they are.

>>52980705
His players are cunts. You don't agree to the premise of the game just to go off and do your own thing every time

>>52960636
WAAAAH WAAH WAAAAH

>>52971324
You need new players who are on board with a megadungeon campaign.

>>52960636
>>52960758
>>52971324
man your players sound like assholes, if i were you id just drop that group and say that if they want a "flexible" gm that one of them can do it and you will ignore all their plot hooks and just be a huge asshole about it

>>52971324
>I want to murder them all.
Go for it

>>52971324
Well, you gave them a concept for your campaign. They didn't want to play it, so maybe one of them can run a game they want instead.

Simple as that.

>>52971324
>party goes west
>smith offers gear if they can clear gobbos from the gatehouse
>gatehouse is empty except for stairs leading to the cellar
>gobbos in the cellar see party and escape into tunnel
>if party does not pursue, smith says gobbos still there, no gear
>party pursues... into your dungeon
>you're welcome

>>52971324
Many people (especially ones that gravitate towards DnD and other table top rpgs) are just not mentally equipped with the basic social skills to have fun doing an rp related game and working with a gm to have some mutual fun.

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>dming cthulhu
>players want to not go to the city that has the plot
>want open world instead
>incredibly annoying and triggering ooc discussion follows
>they also think that the characters going into retirement after seeing the first mythical creature is sensible and good for the session and the plot
>they want to win a horror game
>i end up killing them with a bunch of ghouls and make a new campaign

tfw now they know not to annoy their dm with half an hour discussions/demands that werent talked about beforehand

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>>52960636
>Why do players think it's okay to intentionally ignore plot hooks
>The shit that I planned is going to have more thought put into it than whatever I had to improv because you "felt like going west" this week

I didn't bother reading your thread, but based on the number of replies, I'm fairly certain that someone has already said "Learn how to transplant the stuff you had planned into the environment that the PCs chose to visit".

Just because you have a hook doesn't mean the fish wants the bait.

I have had characters ignore (obvious) plot hooks because the hook was not relevant to their interests. Metagaming I know its a plot hook, but if you are playing a LG paladin you probably don't want to be a pirate, a cowardly neutral or evil character probably won't leave their room when they hear a scream in the middle of the night...

Write better hooks, don't give them a choice, or prepare a bunch of generic situations that you can modify to fit any situation and use that to buy you some time to come up with a brilliant idea.

>>52964271
>Orchiectomy

Not going to lie, you got me.

>>52966452
The sheer cliffed frozen burning jungle Tarrasque country sounds like a great vacation spot. Let's go there.

>>52988848
You should probably read the thread. His players actively ignore what he's planned when they were already clear of the premise from the beginning because they're "helping" him improv

>>52960758
As someone who's gaming group has a couple of people who put in 60+ hours of work a week I can actually understand your side here. It's fine to learn improv, but someone should maybe consider taking over GMing themselves if they aren't enjoying the way the game is going.

t. a neet who GMs for manager and codemonkey friends.

>>52971324
Literally a problem solvable with basic social skills.

Unbelievable.