What exactly did the Silmarils DO besides be shiny and look awesome?

>>52930857
They swore an Oath dude. What would you do if your forefather did that? You wouldn't be a pussy bitch would you?

>>52930857

Them being in evil hands is fine. Them not being in the hands of Fëanor or his descendants was absolutely unacceptable. Remember, he withheld them from the literal gods of the elves because they were so precious to him...

>>52930857
>Yes, I know they were extremely shiny
Um, you already said it yourself. They ALSO looked really fucking awesome.

>>52930957
Oh, and also, Melkor murdered his father, the immortal king of the elves and universally most respected member of the created races. That probably had something to do with going to war.

>>52930857
>I'm just saying it seems like an incredibly petty and arbitrary reason for a world war that destroyed whole continents.

I think you're beginning to realize why a world ruled by Elves wasn't such a swell idea.

>>52930857
>I'm just saying it seems like an incredibly petty and arbitrary reason for a world war that destroyed whole continents.
That's the whole point. Feanor was a cunt. Noldor did not only go to war over this shiny stuff though, to justtify them a bit, they also wanted to avenge death of Finwe and years of manipulation by Melkor, and the stones just kind of ended also as a symbol of this goal, but they even killed other elves over it, or even over the means to get overseas where they were.

>>52930857
Most of the motivation to get them was based around Feanor's Oath.

However, the Silmarils WERE powerful, in that subtle way that Tolkien artifacts usually are. Their light was the light of the Two Trees, and the last source of them. The light of the Trees was said to grant great insight and power, and presumably possession of the Silmaril's might broaden one's mind as well. Also, it was said the "fate and paths of Arda were woven into the Silmarils" or something, which might relate to the previous point. Maybe the Silmarils could let you see the future?

>>52930985
>universally most respected member of the created raceprobably had something to do with going to war.
>laughingingwe

>>52931001
>Their light was the light of the Two Trees
It was the last remnant of the golden age, that's enough to go to war for even if they didn't actually do anything besides looking pretty.

>>52931001

THIS. The light of the Two Trees held within the Silmarils could recreate the Trees after Melkor killed them.

It wasn't a case of Feanor being a cunt or avenging his father's murder or any of the other "reasons' the usual morons in thread like this always suggest.

The Silmarils contained the light of the Two Trees. They were blessed by Varda and thus were imperishable, alive, and sacred. Because Feanor had used part of his own essence to make them, no one, not even Aule or Feanor himself, could even duplicate them. Feanor was even unsure whether he could "unlock" them.

Melkor trolled Feanor convincing him that the Valar and other Eldar wanted to steal the jewels. While Feanor left the jewels with his father and was making amends with Fingolfin, Melkor killed the Two Trees, killed Finwe, and stole the Silmarils.Valar could use that light to recreate the Two Trees.

Knowing only that the Two Trees were dead, the Valar asked Feanor for the gems to recreate them. Feanor initially said no, citing the fact that he didn't know if he could "unlock" them. While he was making up his mind, the news of Finwe's death and the theft of the Silmarils arrived.

That's when Feanor swore vengeance and all the shenanigans took place.

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>>52930857

In the time the silmarils were made the sun & the moon did not exist yet. 2 trees & the silmarils were the only light in varda since the Lamps, Illuin & Ormal were shattered by melkor. When the silmarils were made they somehow captured the essence of the two trees & displayed the light of them. If anything ever happened to the trees the silmarils could be broken and the light held within could have restored the trees. Ungoliant & melkor eventually destroyed the trees leaving the silmarils the only true remaining source of this divine light.

The remaining fruits of these trees were turned into the literal fucking moon & the sun.

The Silmarillion repeatedly states that those Elves who saw the Two Trees were mighty, with the light of Aman in their faces. As vassals of the Valar, the trees somehow bestowed otherworldly power and understanding on those who were exposed to them.

It would be like seeing a jewel in the real world that had the light of heaven radiating out of it. Seeing it bestowed powers & having possession of one granted you great strength/destined you for a divine deed (Luthien obtained 1 Simiril from morgoths crown and began to sing, having the power of the simiril allowed him to put morgoth into a slumber) .

I am not saying that it was not greedy of the elves, but it was heavily implied & told by manwe that the fate of Arda was linked the the Simirils.

>>52930857

Well, if nothing else, they seem to empower you just by having it. Look at how Charcaroth went super-sayin after devouring the one Beren had in his hand. And IIRC, Beren is able to break through some of the wards of Angband only afterwards, when he's got the shiny rock, not before, when he needs Luthien to do it.

But really, the above anons are more true to why they're important than some vague "power you up" reason. They're pure existence, primeval light captured in a gemstone.

>>52931592
What must Arda have looked like during the days of the Lamps and Trees?

The world was flat, and illuminated by static light sources that turned on and off.

It must have been a world of long shadows, endless horizons, and no dawn and dusk. Likely very surreal, even by the standards of the age of Numenor, when the world was just flat but at least had the sun and moon.

They have the light of Heaven, a direct expression of God, within them. It's profanity and tragedy of the greatest, uttermost magnitude for them to be held by the darkness.

>>52932141

There was still morning and evening. The trees' glow regularly ebbed and flowed. So sometimes the world was illuminated by laurelin, sometimes by telperion, sometimes both, and sometimes neither.

In a RPG context, I'd use GURPS and provide Impulse Points to anyone who held one.

>>52932366
Still, the fact that the world was flat and the points of illumination were static and on top of high mountains in the far distance must have made for a surreal looking world.

>>52932385
I imagine it very dreamlike
>ywn witness it

>>52931500
That being said, Feanor and his sons were total cunts about how they reacted to the situation.

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>>52930857
These two:

>>52931001
>>52931592

Are right, but they forgot one detail:

If the Valar had the Silmarils, they could have used that light to restore the two trees, rather than saving only a single fruit and flower. The world would not have diminished so greatly if not for Feanor.

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>>52932957

>>52933004
>That being said, Feanor and his sons were total cunts about how they reacted to the situation.

No they weren't, you stupid fuck.

In short order, Feanor has learned the that Melkor has 1) killed the Two Trees, 2) killed his father Finwe, and 3) stolen the holiest objects on Arda which might be able to restore the Trees.

If all that isn't bad enough, there is also the sudden realization that Melkor had been playing him all along by stirring up shit between Feanor and Fingolfin and generally sowing hate and discontent across Valinor.

As he stand there looking at the dead Trees, what is happening around him? Are the Valar, Maiar, and all the rest mobilizing to track down Melkor and get the Silmarils back? Is Tulkas laughing, flexing, and trying out new wrestling moves? Is Aule oiling the chain they wrapped around Melkor all those ages ago? Are Manwe and Ulmo scrying the whole of Arda to find out where Melkor has run to?

Nope.

All of the Arda's gods and demigods are standing around with their dicks in their hands, staring at the dead Trees, and doing nothing.

So Feanor takes it on himself to do the job the Valar seemingly are unwilling to do. Melkor used him to help perpetrate this outrage, so Feanor is going to get the Silmarils back to put right the catastrophe he unwittingly assisted in.

If anything, Feanor has the most human motives in the whole story.

>>52931500
>It wasn't a case of Feanor being a cunt or avenging his father's murder or any of the other "reasons' the usual morons in thread like this always suggest.
Except that the Valar asked Feanor for the Silmarils to restore the trees before they were stolen, and Feanor told them to fuck off. Feanor's reasons are entirely selfish, he never wanted to use them to heal anything.

>>52934230
When the descendents of Feanor truly did find two if the silmarils, they burnt them for their sins and the sins of their ancestors. All the murder and treachery they had done to obtain them. They killed themselves, and the silmarils fell into the depths of the sea, and a deep fissure in the land.

>>52934538
An elf maiden got the third one.

>>52934592
The third one is currently Venus.

>>52934422
>Feanor told them to fuck off.

No, he didn't asshole. If you ever read the fucking book, you know that.

When asked, Feanor initially hesitated. He did so for two reasons.

First, all the trouble Melkor had been stirring up circled around possession of the jewels and here were the Valar asking for them after assuring Feanor they had no designs on them.

Second, Feanor wasn't sure if even he'd be able to "break" or "unlock" them. The Valar needed to light the Silmaril contained but Feanor didn't know if he'd be able to release that light.

While Feanor was hesitating, news came of Finwe's death at the hands of Melkor and the theft of the jewels. That made the Valar's question moot.

The book flatly stated that Feanor would have given up the Silmarils to the Valar and attempted to "unlock" them IF the news of Melkor's crimes hadn't arrived when it did.

I know "muh Silmarils" is a meme of sorts among the idiots around here, but there's no real reason for you to parrot them.

>>52934538
>All the murder and treachery they had done to obtain them.

They did that after thousands of years of terror, loss, death, and destruction. Their experiences changed them. What was in their hearts when they initially vowed to regain the jewels was very different from what was in their hearts thousands of years later when the Host of the Valar finally decided to pull their thumbs out and do what they should have done immediately after the jewels were stolen; namely push Melkor's shit in and get the Silmarils back.

Feanor & co. did what they did because no one else was doing anything.

>>52934762
>They did that after thousands of years of terror, loss, death, and destruction.
No they did that immediately in the kinslaying. They slaughtered the Teleri to take their boats that they would not give.

>>52934762
>>52934810
It takes a lot to make me defend the Valar, because other than Ulmo they're all jackasses who loved elves but hated men, and neglected men and abandoned them to squalor and ignorance, but Feanor really was a big cunt.

>>52934612
Elrond's dad has a pretty sweet gig going. Got a whole poem to his legacy, gets the last Silmaril, and gets a pimpwagon to ride across the heavens in.

>>52935024
He got a fairly shit deal, he wanted to be human and die, but his wife whined until he gave in and decided to be an elf, and then he can't even spend time with her because he's stuck being Venus.

>>52934844
I don't think the Valar HATED Men. Hate doesn't really seem like something within the Valar's preview.

They probably weren't to fond of fucking Numenor, but mostly they didn't trust Men, or know them as personally as they did the Elves, who came before.

Hell, it's possible they were even a little jealous of Men, since the Gift of Men allows them to eventually know Eru better even than the Ainur.

>>52935054
Distrust is little different than hate. They abandoned the younger children of Eru, and thus humans are forever cursed to be ignorant and stunted, never achieving anything even approaching the glory of elves.

>>52930857
>I'm just saying it seems like an incredibly petty and arbitrary reason for a world war that destroyed whole continents.

Kinda the point

>>52935085
I mean - like I said, they get the gift of men. The "glory of the elves" is entirely temporal, and doomed to wane. At the risk of being corrupted during their short lives, men live quick, bright lives before ascending to beyond Arda.

>>52935045
If you gotta be immortal, there are worse gigs to get.

>>52935196
Getting to hang out forever and ever with an annoying paternalistic figure that thought it was cool to make you weak, ugly, and retarded compared to your older sibling doesn't sound like a fun time. Especially not in his realm which is either empty fucking space like it sounds to be in the creation story, or it'll be some paradise he made, which is going to be awful because perfection is always boring.

>Bright lives
I'm sure someone living in a trash village in Africa would disagree.

>>52935045
You guys think Elrond missed his dad? He'd see the light of the silmaril every day but never be able to see him or talk to him

>>52935256
Elrond is always talking about sorrow and loss so I imagine he misses a lot of things.

>>52935242
It's not perfect if it's boring or unlikely in any way, retard.

>>52935279
That's the part you focus on? The paradise dilemma certainly isn't new, but I had a lot more to say beyond that.

>>52935242
I think you're making the mistake of confusing modern-day context and actual Christian theology with Tolkien's legendarium. You also just sound like someone who hates the concept of gods in general, which I really have nothing for.

>>52935333
How so?

And no I don't hate gods. I hate the Valar for neglecting men and I seriously question Eru's logic in making humans as they are.

>>52935353
First off is the fact that men were never intended to have to deal with Melkor's fuckery. They were meant to be like inverted elves - crap in terms of physical existence, but they'd get to ascend to his plane whereas the elves would be bound to Arda. Melkor ended up preying on their temporal weakness by making them jealous of the elves' immortality without letting him realize the big picture: that they get to go to Valinor+Nirvana-heaven when they die.

Really, I also don't really fully back Tolkien's philosophy. I don't think that the world is naturally inclined to be good (at least not now), and I feel kinda uneasy about there being an "established order" with some spirits always higher than others. But on the other hand I could never really argue that Eru and the Ainur were quite honestly good. Some were more righteous and lawful, others more melancholic and chaotic, some more flawed then others, but at the end of the day it was only the liked of Melkor who went around enslaving and torturing tons of people.

That's probably why I like the dwarves so much. How they were the adopted children, and made specifically to resist the darkness. I like their underdog nature yet they don't let the doom and gloom impact their desire to remain loyal and good.

>>52930857
I figured it was that stuff under the light of the Silmarils would work as it was supposed to all along.

So, wood wouldn't rot, metal wouldn't corrode, people wouldn't get sick, et cetera.

>>52935548
But no matter how good their afterlife supposedly is, what of the fact that humans are intellectually, physically, and spiritually weak next to elves? Unless that changes when they die, they are always the lesser of elves. There's little they can achieve.

>>52935548
>>52935613
Also I'll mention here, Eru's intent is not the Ainur's actions, not always. I doubt it was Eru's intent the Valar would abandon the humans and not teach them anything. In fact, Tolkien even wrote a letter at one point talking about how it had probably been a mistake for the Valar to abandon Middle Earth.

>>52935295
Didn't care and/or disagree about the rest. You just made a dumb comment, no matter how old it is to make it. If it's possible to dislike it in any way it's just not a perfect paradise. It simply can't boring.

>>52935632
This guy's got it to some extent.
>>52935613
I'd imagine it likely changes once they die. Eru's domain was purposely left vague in description so as to not seem basic - like a fluffy cloud heaven you could get bored of. Valinor was more like that: a physical heaven that could ease your soul to the passing of time, but with still fixed and not transcendent.

Also what's this talk of "there's little they can achieve?" Many great deeds have been done by all the races of Middle Earth. From Elven kings of old, to brave heroes of Men like Beren, Theoden, or Aragorn. Dwarves and Halflings have their own heroes and so forth. You can always achieve great things if you don't let jealousy rule your heart - like what ended up happening to the Numenoreans, or Melkor, who ended proving just how low elves could sink to in the end. I feel bad for the orcs most of all.

>>52935748
But always elves have done the greater, and achieved greater heights of understanding and technology. Even now you could not say humans have achieved something as simple as limbas, or however you spell it. And in more physical feats, there was never a human that fought off a Balrog, and it was an elf (the half-elven are definitely far more like an elf than they are any man) who slew Ancalagon, utterly eclipsing little Turin and his trick.

>>52935790
I mean, there was also never a Hobbit that killed a Balrog but they don't seem to hold that as the gold standard of a life well lives.

Also, if you want to go with Tolkien's idea of how Arda is like the Hyborean Age, then humanity ended up - y'know - inventing all modern technology, and haven't faded into wood-shades like the elves have.

>>52931006
Ingwe did literally nothing ever

>>52935850
Modern technology is basically inferior to the majority of elven stuff, is the thing.

>>52935942
Well, Tolkien also had his mythos set up so that the past tended to be cooler.

Either way, I don't think Men being "inferior" to elves is necessarily that big a problem unless you're really jealous. And it's more of a general thing. Not EVERY elf was always better than the BEST of humanity. There were plenty of shit elves and awesome humans, and awesome half-elves born from humans and elves decided to put aside jealousy or arrogance and get to lovemakin'.

>>52934844
the valar left like half of the quendi in middle earth without sun or moon or anything to fight off morgoth's orcs and beasts and gave like absolutely zero fucks about them
they also treated the eldar like some fucking retarded pets
they were supposed to prepare arda fir the coming of elves and men but they just fucked everything up instead

>>52935974
Half elves always basically favored the elves far more. The ones that even just picked human basically died irrelevant.

>>52935942
We don't fight with axes and short swords.

>>52935994
They taught elves basically everything, though. Sure half of them stayed behind and got fucked, but all the elves that happened to either A) Ignored the Valar's call to the west, basically their fault.

B) Came back later after some kinslaying, so again their fault.

>>52936008
We don't have magic bread, enchanted everything, supernatural basically magic plants, cool light powers, or command of nature.

>>52936000
at least they died and didn't have their body burned by their soul and their mind ruined like some elves

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>>52936008
"Do the evolution" plays in the background

>>52930857
I dont think you realised just how supremely shiny and pretty they were.
also, that's the point, they did nothing except be the last remaining light from creation. It's like if we ever found a remaining chalice made out of pure God. Many country would go to war to own it even if it doesn't do anything

>>52936085
Like, how shiny?

>>52936133
i'm not sure a mongolian cotton-picking message board can let me properly describe it, but
>Shiny enough to destroy a whole countinent for

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>>52936068

>>52935942
Not entirely and not for long. We're coming up fast on the point where we can both create something more intelligent than a human being (which, ergo, would be able to more quickly and efficiently make something more intelligent than itself, and so on) and augment ourselves with similar technology. If that doesn't go atrociously balls to the wall badly it'll end in an eternal golden age for us.

>>52936038
We do have small metal and glass tablets that most regular people in the more powerful nations on earth carry around that serve as sources of most of the human knowledge base, long-range communicators in several formats, light sources, image recorders and game libraries. Our equivalent of heroes have traveled to the heavens physically in vessels of steel. We have artificial materials (textile, metallurgic and otherwise) on-par with those that were used by elves. "Command of nature" is a tricky thing to say we don't have as well.

The only drawback that really comes with is that we're terrifyingly close to running out of our main fuel source. Fortunately our scientists probably have us covered, because it gets cheaper to produce solar panels every year.

>>52936068
Gate is the shittiest anime.

>>52936038
the valar were supposed to shape the world for elves(and they literally forgot those guys exist) and men, not to seal some of them on their party island and abandon the others
they've been dickish to men, elves and basically everyone

>>52936038
>We don't have magic bread, enchanted everything, supernatural basically magic plants, cool light powers, or command of nature.
Yet

>>52934762
>No, he didn't asshole. If you ever read the fucking book, you know that.

You re-read it. I just did. Feanor hesitated. Then decided not to give up the Silmarils. He says that he won't willingly give up the Silmarils, and if the Valar take them by force then they're no better than Morgoth. And THEN news reaches them about the theft and murder.

The book even points out that Feanor's refusal might have been moot in light of what was revealed next, but that he'd clearly made the choice and the choice itself was evil nonetheless.

In other words, you're not just wrong, you're being a self righteous dick about being wrong. You sound like an article on Vox. Re-read the passage before spouting off about what it says.

>first Del Ray Books edition: January 2002, pages 83 and 84

Btw that passage also points out that the Two Trees could have been brought to life with the Silmarils, but only before their roots decayed. With the Silmarils stolen, the Trees were irretrievably lost, even after the Silmarils were recovered.

>>52936340
Never saw it, I just saw this strip and fell in love with the concept of nuking Sauron. Thanks for the reference though, cheers mate

>>52936387
Nah, the magic that made that stuff possible, according to Tolkien, bled out and died in the world.

>>52935266

He grew up with no mom and dad, raised by one of the men who tried to kill his mom. His grandparents he never met: dead or over the Sea. His brother chose mortality as a young man, and Elrond never saw him again as he moved to Numenor and then later died and left the world forever. He entered the service of King Gil Galad, later killed by Sauron. His wife was kidnapped by Orcs and whatever abuse she suffered at their hands, it was enough that she too crossed over the Sea. His daughter became mortal and he never saw her again either.

He had two sons at least. But he must have been lonely and sad.

>>52936327
>If that doesn't go atrociously balls to the wall badly
>If
You might be able to convince a near-human AI to like us and want to help us instead of genociding us or ignoring us completely, but once you make an unshackled one that keeps iterating forever it's going to quickly become entirely alien and incapable or unwilling to see us as anything but insects to stomp or ignore and step on by accident.

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>>52936679
Why am I getting this feeling of deja vu...

>>52936327
>Our equivalent of heroes have traveled to the heavens physically in vessels of steel.
Their hero is literally a planet.

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>>52936133
Pictured here: The Silmarils

>>52936907
>His wife was kidnapped by Orcs and whatever abuse she suffered at their hands, it was enough that she too crossed over the Sea.
Probably physical torture, Tolkien made a big deal that if you try to rape an elf they'll just let themselves 'die' and abandon their body.

>>52936133
Imagine that at the time the earth was new and still being formed, one of the demiurge's more specialized kids plants two trees.
Those trees grow straight and tall up unto the very vaults of heaven. They shine in splendor greater than precious metals or jewels.
These trees shone bright and fine enough to light the whole world, whereas before there were only stars.

Now imagine that the sun and the moon are but a fruit and a flower from those trees.

The silmarils captured some of the very essence of the light of those trees.
That is how shiny.

The Silmarills didn't need a or power level.

Imagine losing the most beautiful thing in the universe. Something of such unimaginable beauty that it causes longing in every being, both divine in mortal.

Something so perfect and unique you poured in a piece of your soul into it. They can never be made again, and it also just happens to be last instance of the another gorgeous thing. Imagine crafting a gem that captures the soothing feeling of sunlight on your skin. The soft breeze of a cold woodland wind on your skin. The brisk feeling of seaside wind. Now imagine that you can never feel this again and that a treacherous entity stole it from you.

The real villains are the Valar. For not dealing with Melkor sooner. For not fixing the shit Melkor broke. For not hunting down the monsters Melkor spawned, instead leaving them to prey on elves and men. For walling themselves up on an island and abandoning the rest of the world. For letting Melkor loose on the world again. For leaving Melkor to run rampant for centuries and afflict innocent elves, dwarves and men, solely because of petty anger at the Noldor. The list goes on.
Melkor was an evil son of a bitch and the Noldor were arrogant and prideful in the extreme. But pretty much all the evil shit that happened to Middle Earth can be traced back to the Valar's total stupidity, self-righteousness and incompetence. You can understand why Eru wanted to make elves and men, the Ainur were a fucking mistake.

>>52935790

Elves didn't invent lembas, Melian did.

Elves have mystic powers, mostly learned from the Valar. Some Men have those powers too, learned from the elves.

Tolkien repeatedly makes the point that the value of life isn't in your kill count or magical powers, but the moral choices you make and how you use your powers to participate in the process of Creation. The Valar don't make all the decisions or hold all the powers either.

Tolkien describes the world as a song, with each of us assigned a part to sing. I'll compare it to a painting. Eru painted the broad outlines. He invites each of us to make a single brushstroke, one lifetime long, that's our contribution. Some get better paints, or longer strokes, or bigger brushes. But one stroke's all you get. if you try to scribble, to make your part more noticeable, or paint over other people's parts, then that's evil in Tolkien's legendarium. You violate your chosen part and mar the work.

Elves are part of the canvas... A basic foundation of the work that makes a big impact, but can never be anything more than part of the work itself. But humans while their brushstroke is much smaller have the ability to stand back and admire the whole painting once their part is over.

>>52936947
I believe the idea is to have an upward chain of sympathy with each link advocating for the being below it, so it would be less the godlike being at the top not caring about us at all and destroying us as a result and more like the godlike being at the top being like the leader of a modern representative government and destroying us as a result.

>>52936966
So's your mom. See? Anything they can do, we can do as well.

>>52935974

Feanor's whole problem was that he couldn't get over being less than the Valar. Morgoth's was that he couldn't get over not being as great as Eru.

When Sauron tempted Celebrimbor, he didn't just offer him power. He offered him power to equal or even surpass the beauty of Valinor. And in doing so, in a sense surpass the Valar themselves.

Even all elves aren't equal to one another in talents or accomplishments. Certainly Men aren't. Some accept this, do what they can to improve the world, and appreciate all its wonders rather than getting hung up on those wonders being THEIR wonders. Others get bitter that they aren't greater than they are (even those who should be most content, having gotten the greatest gifts) and hurt the world so as to magnify their own part in it.

>>52937496
The issue is with Eru intentionally making an entire species inferior to another on purpose.

>>52937390
>living and dying as a human is the same as participating in a paint bukakke all over elfkind
that's kinda hot

>>52936204
>>52937024
>>52937157
Okay but countless people died and the world itself was fucked forever. I can't see that as anything but a net loss.
If they radiated enough light to serve as an endless clean energy source, that's a different story, but we all know how elves feel about industrialization so they'd certainly just sit and stare at the shiny things.

>>52935942
We've invented lembas. We have such things. Trail rations that are preternaturally fortifying is kinda a thing amongst survivalists.

>>52936947
Build God, then we'll talk.

>>52937280
Even Tolkien says they were wrong.

>>52937390
Who cares about merely being able to look at a painting, rather than to paint

>>52937390
That is a very well wrought analogy. Good on you.

>>52937390
>Some Men have those powers too, learned from the elves.
They're always inferior.

Humans learned all their basic survival skills from elves too. Specifically from Dark and later Grey elves, and it was only the men of the west who finally learned from Light Elves, Eldar, the Noldor specifically. But in each case the word was diminished in the teaching, the things the humans learned and did were far inferior to the things the elves learned and did, which were of course inferior to what the Valar did. Yet again, the humans were inferior to the elves.

>>52937590
Trail rations don't last forever, they don't do any good for you nutritionally, and they make you shit your guts out.

>>52937519

And yet the worst villain of all is the strongest member of the strongest race. Whereas the most good race overall (hobbits) are also the least powerful.

And most of the worst strife is between members of the same species.

Inequality is a necessary consequence of the fact that we're all different. Jealousy is not a necessary consequence of inequality. It's a choice not to celebrate what you have and instead hurt others for the sake of having more.

The town elder of Laketown in The Hobbit comes to mind. He runs away with stolen bags of gold and dies miserable in the desert with them. Saruman and his gatherers and sharers are a great example, too. The chain of Sauron-->Saruman-->Gollum illustrates the point: evil at its heart is pathetic scrabbling for MORE.

>>52937801
But who decided those differences is an intelligent force here, and thus can be taken to task for why it decided to make things in such a way.

>>52937280
>the real villains are the valar
>for not adequately controlling or neutralising the rea- the other villain

>>52936340
The only problem I had with Gate is that the Japs over there should immediately pick up on two things:

- Magic is real here.
- The gods are real here.

What happens if the gods in that world get so pissed about you fucking with their worshippers that they decided to walk into yours and start fucking shit up?

Burry that gate under a few miles of concrete and stop fucking with those people, FFS!

It's like no one's played Shadowrun or something...

>>52938141
>What happens if the gods in that world get so pissed about you fucking with their worshippers that they decided to walk into yours and start fucking shit up?

Going by how the story's been going so far, the Japanese army is probably just going to kill the gods.

>>52937590
No, that's just cram.

>>52937822

Inequality is a natural consequence of people being different from one another, being unique. It's something to celebrate and be thankful for, not something to blame and resent.

In fact, for Eru to have created anything distinct from himself would have introduced inequality and the possibility of jealousy, even if it had just been the one being. Variety of any kind means differences, and thus sets the stage for some to resent their lot and want what others have. Eru again could have averted this by denying his creations free will, but chose to give these beings the freedom to make decisions, even break his commandments. I suppose you could be angry about that as well, but IMO it's again something to celebrate.

You're taking issue with the act of Creation itself. And yet I'd say that those two "mistakes" (individuality and free will) were acts of unparalleled generosity, for which we should be eternally grateful.

>>52937822
But what's wrong with the out come? It made for a great story, and that's only the four years of it that a couple hobbits wrote down.

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>>52930857
They contain the light of the two trees, and could be used to restore them from their current state.
Morgoth stole them because he was jealous of their beauty and wanted them for his own.

>>52938768
A great story for elves, I'm sure.

>>52938753
Again, why did he make humans inferior to elves in every single way? That is the ultimate issue.

>>52938753
gee I wonder who is behind this post

Eru get OUT

>>52938962

It's like you haven't even read the books. Elves are immortal WITHIN THE WORLD. When it goes, they're utterly gone as well. And they're stuck in the world, even if just in the Halls of Mandos. The ages fly by, and they're trapped watching the world change and feeling themselves fading.

Humans get only a brief time on Earth, but then pass away and out of the world. They're only there briefly to taste some of its joy before escaping. For the elves, they're stuck in a world that flies by out of their control before enduring long millennia of powerlessness. Humans don't grow weary and hunger for more.

You're envying the part you don't like. You want the best parts of their deal and yet keep the best parts of ours.

And it's clearly NOT the ultimate issue. Did Morgoth's rebel because someone in Middle Earth got more power than him? Feanor's rebellion came before Men even existed, and note that his words of rebellion quickly segued away from fighting Morgoth and recovering the Silmarils and into he would supplant the Valar and become the ultimate lords of light.

And if humans are so totally inferior, what about Turin and Hurin and Tuor and Huor and Beren and the other Fathers of Men??

In the movies, Elves are shield-surfing superbeings. In the books, they have great gifts but many Men are great as well.

>>52939270
>When it goes, they're utterly gone as well
Someone doesn't know about Estel.

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>>52937391
>more like the godlike being at the top being like the leader of a modern representative government and destroying us as a result.
Kek. I appreciated that setup and punchline both.

>>52939302

Estel is Aragorn, a mortal Man.

Unless you mean fighting a war against Eru and inequality and "it's totally unfair that someone got more than me". Because the guy peddling that particular brand of hope made his campaign HQ in Angband.

Just as the Noldor war on Morgoth was futile, Morgoth's war to be more than he could be was a war for a logical impossibility. To be equal is to be the same. If he was to have existed at all, it was to be unequally.

All beings are in the same pickle. It's like waging a war against two plus three equalling five.

>>52940181
Estel is the elven concept of faith/hope. It's commonly used to refer to the hope/belief the elves have that Eru won't let them die with the world, and that when it ends, they will get to escape it like men have.

Thus it essentially means that if true, then elves get to have their cake and eat it too. They'll get to experience being superior in the mortal realm, long lives in valinor, and of course unending paradise when it's over. That's essentially spitting right in the eye of humans.

>>52939270
>And if humans are so totally inferior, what about Turin and Hurin and Tuor and Huor and Beren and the other Fathers of Men??
All of those needed elven help to do anything, and most of the greatest feats were by the elves involved.

>>52940300

And yet Tolkien wrote that Legolas accomplished the least of the fellowship.

You're either besotted by the movies or the Bauglir himself spreading webs of deceit in our pure unstained 4chan.

>>52940262

So even in universe it's fanfic... And oh by the way not even in a published canon work.

>>52940456
To be fair, Legolas is essentially sindar, not Noldor. Though he's got some ancestry there. The Sindar don't outclass Numenoreans or Dwarves, just regular Men.

The silmarils are just really shiny jewels.They're pretty and desirable. When you see jewels you want them because they're pretty. The silmarils were made by a super ordinant being though so they're next level shiny and desirable and people had difficulty resisting them for that reason.

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>>52930857

>>52930857
>Yes, I know they were extremely shiny
No dude, I don't think you do realise how shiny they were. They were really Really REALLY shiny!

>>52941601
Wow. Concise and accurate.

>>52932141
Fuck, now I want to see a sci-fi (or whatever) world built around that premise and the culture that would arise. And I want to see some artwork of that lighting.

>>52936327
>believes in hard AI
Santa Claus isn't real, either.

>>52943224
What magic do you think is inscribed in the biological form?

>>52930857

The fact that Ungoliant wanted to eat them suggests they contained great power, and Melkor's refusal to hand them over despite his fear of her suggests that it is a great power indeed.

>>52943440
I think Tolkien finally settled on Ungoliant being some minor Maia of shadows that Morgoth corrupted into evil. She was supposed to be a scaredy little thing that was afraid to death of Morgoth hurting her because she refused to stand with him before and had hid.

So it's worth noting that after all of that, her drinking from the trees had empowered her to the point that she was more powerful than Morgoth, the most powerful overall of the Valar, and could spin webs of darkness that even Tulkas, the most physically powerful Valar, could not break. Those trees packed some serious power.

>>52943483

I thought it was implied that she was one of the creatures from "below" the world mentioned in two towers?

>>52943512
Or from outside of it. Tolkien never could decide on what she was, but late in his life he had written a bit about her meeting with Morgoth when he wanted to convince her to attack the trees. She was hidden in a cave, emaciated because she had eaten nothing and had blocked herself away from the light of the Valar in fear that they'd hurt her, and hid even deeper and refused to come out when she saw Morgoth for fear of him. He had to talk her out and present her a gift of gems, essentially nursing her back to health with small meals before the creature even had the strength to travel, and he afterwards convinced her to drink from the trees.

In this she's a minor maia as I described. But Tolkien wrote countless alternative versions of things, so there's really nothing binding you to it. I mean, this is post him trying to rewrite the setting to be science fantasy, for fuck's sake.

>>52943573

Makes sense except for one thing, do maia need to eat? Like I know that her hunger is a unique attribute but still

>>52943624
Likely not. Ainur in their natural state are essentially pure fea, soul. They can adopt hroa, bodies, as they will and cast them off. It is probable, though, that ainur bound to a body like the Istari would need to eat. This version of Ungoliant is most likely to have been bound to a hroa through her corruption rendering her fea cursed and incapable of existing independently.

>>52930985
>Melkor murdered his father

Melkor killed Ea? Wat?

>>52943691

Melkor murdered Feanor's dad

>>52943381
>strawman
There's a reason we haven't been able to do this shit in the 60 years we've been trying. We even know the reason; many just want to ignore it.

>>52943777
>Christfag post hit triple sevens.
Appropriate.

>>52937391
Soooo, nothing changes then.

>>52943440
She wanted to eat them because they were pretty. No power was contained inside them.

>>52943483
>Ungoliant being some minor Maia of shadows
Can I have a citation on this?

>>52944093
It's in Morgoth's Ring, and War of the Jewels not sure what pages.

>>52943512
Not below the world, but something that descended upon the world from beyond it in the early days, she wasn't part of the Song. At least originally, Tolkien might have written alternate versions.

I think even the things below the world were still technically part of it.

>>52943381

I don't know quite what you mean by that word. You seem to use the same word for the deceits of the Enemy.

>>52937588
you don't understand it's litterally
>shiny enough to kill for.
All logics is thrown out the window because it's a godly universal artifact. It's use is litterally ''be fucking pretty'' we dont have an analog for that in our world

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x20 power point multiplier that also multiplies other Silmarils (two is x400, all three is x8000)

Allows wielder to cast all spells from Light Law, Light's Ways, Brilliance, and Starlights lists as powers (w/o spending spell points). All three would be three spells per round plus innate spellcasting.

>>52947201
Go stand on the bones and ashes of your people and try to explain to them how shiny the macguffins were.
It's the reasoning of religious zealots waging endless war over a piece of holy land, except at least land can be a home.

>>52949666
>talking to dead bodies
Go away, Vecna, your kind is not welcome here.

>Every artifact needs to grant POWAHS to be valuable
Right. Silmarils held the essence of beauty and were the ultimate creations. Surrendering them to a failed god who lacks inspiration so much that he has to twist creations of less powerful gods and rob mortals is, for elves, like becoming soulless, mindless turbonormies for fa/tg/uys, or like surrendering FREEDOM and GUNS for murikans.

>>52949666
>It's the reasoning of religious zealots waging endless war
Yes, and?

>>52949800
This is correct except the post goes off the rails towards the end
>>52947818
This poster is a dumb
>>52949666
This ooster is satan trying to trick you into beliveing that a higher power than God exists. Do not believe his lies.

>>52949837
You could say "the X was Y enough to kill for" about literally anything and it would make just as much sense. You could say a pile of garbage is smelly enough to kill for.

>>52930857
Placing to much worth in shiny things, instead of living a humble life seems to be a theme with Tolkien, be it Hobbit, Lord of the Rings or the Silmarillion

>>52949800
>>52950003
I understand that, but in the process of obsessing over one thing, the elves were responsible for ruining everything else that was still beautiful and great and pure in the world at the time, while ultimately failing to keep the macguffins anyway. How does that make Feanor the good guy, when similar cases in the same setting of people killing for objects are portrayed as evil and foolish?
Was Gollum justified in killing for his shiny thing? Was the battle of five armies justified on all sides because it started over a shiny thing? Or is there a required threshold of shininess that conveniently can only ever apply in one instance?

>>52950034
Except it's a truth of human nature that we desire shiny things and occassionaly have killed over them. It might not be very satisfying if you're trying to spec them for a game of magic missile but that's the answer.

>>52950222
>How does that make Feanor the good guy
It doesn't. He's not a good guy. Morgoth stealing his jewels and killing his father made him too angry to think rationally and that was his sin. Everything he does after that is indisputably bad.
>denying the valar
>oathswearing
>kinslaying
>irrational vengence

The oath slaying is key because when he and his family swear the oath Mandos says he's gonna hold them to it. So the sons of Feanor in middle earth are motivated to take the silmarils by an evil action.

There's also that bit about the Tolkien ragnarok that I don't have a citation on that says that Feanor in the final battle will be ressurected and will freely return the Silmarils to the Valar in his final redeptive act.

The Silmarils are beautiful and great but Feanor fucked it all up in the last actiosn of his life so he and his sons are the bad guys.

>>52950222
>the elves were responsible for ruining everything else that was still beautiful and great and pure in the world
No.

>>52950386
The Noldor were responsible for fuckin shit up big time. They were at least partly responsible for most fuck ups in midde earth in the first age.

>>52935045
It's okay, Elwing can fly to him through space as a magical swan and go full reverse-Zeus on him.

>>52950563
Partly no. I remember having really long and heated debates about that here, for which I have no time right now. So, it's just a "no" from.

>>52938141
>>52938225
>jap army
>killing anything

lmao ok weeb you keep believing that

>>52938141
>interesting premise
>gets kicked aside for waifu pandering harem garbage

I didn't bother sticking with it for long enough to see if any actually interesting bits from "modern meets fantasy" come into play, but I'd assume it's still "muh guns kill man with sword" rather than things like the political ramifications of Japan getting a gate to a second earth's worth of resources.

>>52951172
>For waifu pandering
No, it got kicked aside to suck Japan's dick.

>>52951184
Well that's to be expected being that it's a Japanese story taking place in (well next to(?)) Japan. It's no different than American media sucking America's dick, (though anything resembling patriotism or nationalism seems to be frowned upon nowadays in western media).

Like I said I havent kept up with it though so for all I know it's poorly written "MUH JAPAN" shit, so feel free to disregard my post if so.

>>52930857
The Silmarils weren't just shiny, they held the last remnants of the sacred light of the two trees of Valinor. Sunlight and moonlight are pale echoes of the light of the Silmarils, which besides producing their own light took any ambient light and amplified it with their own, and were priceless jewels cut by the greatest elven craftsman to ever live in the first place. No one has any idea how it was possible for Feanor to make them in the first place, and even the Valar could not recreate them. The Trees could have been revived if not for Feanor's greed. They were symbols of everything the world could have been.

That said, the whole point of the Silmarillion was that they were not worth the conflict they sparked.

>>52936068

Perhaps modern technology is better at destroying things than elven magic is, but when is the last time you've used a nuke for something? And don't forget elves had weather control, so they could simulate something similar by sending a bunch of tornadoes down on a target.

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>>52930857
How to make the Quest for the Silmarils seem heroic, anons?

>>52951337
>That said, the whole point of the Silmarillion was that they were not worth the conflict they sparked.
Eh, if not for the Noldor returning to Middle Earth, nobody would have uplifted Men and nobody would have stood against Morgoth and later Sauron. The Valar essentially abandoned the world to die and rot, including the entire race of Men, and it was only because there were Noldor there that they eventually got convinced to save anyone.

So in that sense the wars over the Silmarils benefited people.

>>52951272
From what I've heard it eventually involves bog normal JSDF people effortlessly kicking the asses of a joint effort between American, Russian and Chinese spec ops

>>52951417

Don't forget the scene before that where they tore apart the last extant remnant of the Roman Empire (they got to the GATE first), including a JSDF chick managing to solo several praetorians armed with swords and shields with nothing but her bayonet.

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>>52951385
What do you mean, it wasn't heroic enough already?
Are you some kind of a filthy Teleri-sympathizer?

>>52951417
>bog normal JSDF people

There was an actual, literal goddess of death helping out. I don't think the JSDF has a lot of those in their ranks. And the MC would be from the JSDF's top SpecOps unit.

The enemy SpecOps teams weren't so much allied as having the same goal and stumbling on each other trying to reach it. And Japan's prime minister committed political suicide to ensure a political environment that doomed the intruders.

So not quite the way you had it described to you. Some people are just damn sensitive to the Americans not winning everything.

>>52951394
Eru Iluvatar works in many and mysterious ways. Feanor has done evil and from that evil Iluvatar weaves goodness. But Feanors actions are not good because Iluvatar made goodness of them.

>>52950681
Thanks for posting then. You're special and your opinions are valued.

>>52951668
The fucking JSDF getting in a pissing contest with 3 superpowers at once and winning is dumb enough by itself though, goddess or no goddess

>>52953196
Girly elves.

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>>52953196

>>52953422
Hey!

One of them's an elfy girl.

>>52937496

So Ingwë is the High King because he doesn't care about being the greatest Eldar in Valinor?

While Fëanor and Galadriel who actually were referred to as the greatest Eldar in Valinor were never (in Fëanor's case undisputed) rulers in Valinor.

How would an edgelord fare in middle earth? Like say if someone decided to sneak into the shire during nightfall and murder every hobbit in their sleep? How would the rest of the world respond to that?

>>52954578
Evil corrupts, your dark designs would see you become foolish and degrade into a pathetic thing.

Also the Hobbits DO have militias and border patrols, especially in Buckland. They're not completely helpless.

>>52953781
Yes. It's as true in middle earth as it is in real life. Those who most wish to have power are the ones you least want to have it.
It played out again with the white council. Olorin had to be goaded into becoming an Istar and once he was Gandalf Galadriel and others saw he was the most qualified to lead the council but Sarumon wanted it and he turned out evil.
The theme apears again with the ring. Frodo is uniquely qualified to have the ring becaude he doesn't want it and it just came to him by chance.

What was Eru's idea behind making humans the way he did?

>>52937390
The fact that Melkor's discord was necessary to fulfill the ultimate beauty of the Great Song is one of the simplest but most powerful statements Tolkien made.

>>52956163
>I bet being shitty in life is totally worth living with me after they die!

Though Finrod thought the ideal world would have been elves as teachers and caretakers and humans essentially as children. Dude's a Humaboo but he's got some weird ideas in him.

>>52930857
They captured the essence of the original song of the ainur, giving those who wielded them great power.

>>52944739
This idea that Eru created everything with the Song but things still crept in from Elsewhere is always one of the most interesting ideas to me.

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>>52954578
There is no shortage of awful shit on Middle-Earth, people just have a warped perception of the setting because for decades 80% of the fantasy genre was about being contrarian to Tolkien

The Rangers would probably kill the edgelord before he even got into the Shire. They do it with basically anything nasty that tries getting there, that's why it's so peaceful.

And Tolkien already had a very notorious edgelord. He has his own book, even. IIRC Children of Hurin was one of the first works set in Middle-Earth he made, and the only one besides The Hobbit and LotR complete enough to have an actual book rather than the messy collection of notes that is the Silmarillion.

Features a black talking sword, orcs nailing elves to trees and Dante from the Devil May Cry series

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>>52956285
Don't forget the Fall of Gondolin. That was about as close to rape pillage and burn as he ever got.

Or the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, which even the narration notes was basically grey versus grey in terms of morality.

>>52956459
Don't forget that the attempts of rape during the Fall were on the part of elves. Who should really know better about that being impossible, but hey.

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>>52956672
Thought you were trolling then, but I remembered whatisname, good point.

Even the Professor couldn't make up his mind if what pic related did was rape or not.

>>52956781
Speaking of that, his wife, fooled or not, apparently didn't hate him, so I have to wonder what she thought he was going to do when she ran off to Gondolin with their son.

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>>52956904
Beats me. Probably that he'd go back to wherever the dark elves are from if he couldn't get into Gondolin.

>>52957030
Thing is, "I want to run away forever and never let him see his kid again!" isn't something you do to a man unless you hate him, so.

Also dark elves are just those elves who never bothered with the call of the Valar to the west, unlike grey ones who gave up and light ones which got all the way. Though in Eol's case it's a title that refers to his darkened nature.

>>52957062
>Also dark elves are just those elves who never bothered with the call of the Valar to the west, unlike grey ones who gave up and light ones which got all the way. Though in Eol's case it's a title that refers to his darkened nature.
I'm aware, that's what I meant.

I wonder how the Noldor regard the dark elves. Considering that Eol makes his way to Beleriand, there must be some of them left. I wonder what became of them all.

>>52957131
Some of them survived I'm sure, and faded into spirits and eventually into just that weird feeling you get in deep forests and the like.

Though I bet the bulk got killed off by humans under the service of Morgoth and Sauron.

While we are on the topic of the silmarillion, Beren and Luthien best story.

>>52958098
I hope that new book isn't shit.

At least if it is we can blame it on Christopher and ignore it.

>>52958113
Holy shit I didn't even know about that and it's coming out in a few days. Hype as fuck.

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>>52958098

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>>52930985
>>52930985
>the immortal king of the elves and universally most respected member of the created races

Ingwe is high king of the elves

thingol (elwe) is the greatest elf to ever live

finwe is literally the worst of the big three

>>52958375
Don't be rude to Finwe.

>>52958375
Haven't you forgotten Thingols brother, the king of the Teleri?

Also, Thingol, twice was corrupted by Silmaril lust. Once when he thought he had sentenced Beren to die and once more when he neglected to pay the dwarves for their craftwork. Most good associated with him can be attributed to his wife.

>>52958542
no because hes just discount thingol and not one of the three elven ambassadors. why the fuck would i include him?

the only ones with crazy silmaril lust are the jew dwarves. thingol put the bitch kinslaying noldor in their place and made them even stop speaking their own language. he had never lost a battle to melkor and his wife counts as his possession since he was such a badass he made a god his cockslave with his BEC