What is GW's obsession with Chaos and it always winning?

>>52887784
The chaos gods were always the primary symbols of evil. To give them a weak position is to make the setting less gritty than they want it to be.

>after age of sigmar debacle, gw sets its crosshairs on 40k for more
>""""quality story progression""""

In case you didn't know:
>abaddon the despoiler is basically 40k's archaon everchosen
>mighty chaos lord that leads infinite daemon hordes against the galaxy in black crusades
>gw decides to be cool and again lets player battles decide the course of lore
>abaddon gets his shit kicked in repeatedly
>becomes a walking meme of failure and is basically chaos zapp brannigan
>loses to regular imperial dudes despite having the full power of the warp and the chaos gods on his side
>imperium holds and beats him back again and again and inflicts disastrous losses on chaos because of how player battles went fair and square
>still severely hurt, but the imperium wins and begins a slow painful process of rebuilding
>sound familiar yet?
>gw gets pissed that abaddon loses, literally, and then hits the "chaos wins" button
>fall of cadia
>abaddon decides to just blow up cadia because he can
>imperium is powerless to stop him as chaos rifts begin opening up all over the place
>necrons come back and start fucking everyone up
>tyranids, the only faction chaos truly feared, made irrelevant (see: because they're the only faction chaos is afraid of)
>chaos is winning and the end of the galaxy is coming
>coming soon: age of emperor or age of the imperium

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^>continued

It's been asked but never really discussed in the respective Warhammer threads, and it's admittedly often defended by fans of Chaos who claim their faction never wins, but that's just false, and this issue spans both Warhammer universes. GW seems to forget people like the other sides, and in pursuit of hopeless nihilism just hits the "Chaos Victory" switch every time something goes against them or when the plot needs progressed.

Why don't they have the Imperium destroy Chaos? Or have the Tau take out all the Orks? Or have the Necrons appear and battle the Tyranids? Why is every "plot progression" event Chaos coming in and fucking everyone else up with 0 effort all while the fluff goes on and on about how unstoppable the Chaos gods are? How powerless and pitiful everyone else is to them?

Grimdark is one thing, but faction fapping and masturbatory nihilism is another, especially when they feel the need to constantly shit on all other factions.

Now most of the galaxy is teetering on collapse, and Chaos is riding strong, because this has happened before in the exact same way. Fuck, in 40k the only two things capable of beating Chaos - the Emperor and the Nids - are now being glossed over, footnoted, and made almost irrelevant, just like how in the End Times the entire Kingdom of Bretonnia, one of the most popular factions (if you didn't know), was wiped out by Chaos, and it was basically a single paragraph. Wiped out. Gone. Destroyed by Chaos, with nothing to show for it.

So I ask for discussion, then: why does Games Workshop insist on Chaos being at the forefront of everything? Why is every act of story progression done in the favor of Chaos? What is their obsession with hitting the "Chaos Wins" button every single time?

If you need a more in-depth look on the subject and proof of the claims before you say "chaos always loses though stop whining imperial fanboy", check out 1d4chan. i know, it's shit, but it has good articles on this

It's more interesting than NPC faction Tyranids being the big bad when they're incredibly boring.

>My faction wants to eat stuff
Is that it?
>That's it

Apparently you are not familiar with AoS lore. Chaos has been consistently getting btfo since the beginning. It's very refreshing actually.

>>52887798
It's not that Chaos needs to be weak. It was never weak, it was just that they faced strong opposition, like how in the early days there were equally powerful Gods of Order that fought the Gods of Chaos. Yet, GW retconned that. Then when Chaos loses fair and square and an appropriately grimdark setting is made, the aftermath of the Storm of Chaos, again the last event fans loved almost universally, they retcon it in favor of their soul-crushingly nihilistic obsession with Chaos always prevailing.

>>52887878

Yeah Chaos is losing a lot more in AoS, but remember that Chaos is directly responsible for destroying a world of decades of lore and rendering it all moot because GW said so, and now 40k is going the same way.
>Chaos wins, get over it, buy our books

>>52887875
chaos

>my faction wants to kill stuff
Is that it?
>That's it

>>52887871
Main article in question:

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/The_End_Times

>>52887889
Which is why they had to progress the setting the way they did. In old warhammer it was the whole 'chaos is an inevitability' thing and the entire setting and all lore was built on that. The best thing to do was just let it win, fast forward to a new locale (or locales) and set up a new status quo. The inception of the stormcast eternals is actually pretty cool in this regard. It would be like if the horus heresy never happened and the space marine legions all remained loyal.

>>52887924
A lot of people did and still do like Storm of Chaos and its aftermath, particularly in games like WFRP. It really did offer up a broad horizon. The Old World weathered the storm, barely, and everyone was left with the question of "What now?" A lot of good shit could've come of that, and instead they decided to reverse everything, retcon shit all the way back, and start again, all because Chaos didn't win. The fight against Chaos being inevitable and unending was always a theme, but the idea of a Chaos victory being inevitable and unstoppable didn't come about until the End Times, long after the world was conceived and the franchise begun.

>>52887960
I honestly would have been happy as well if they took the Storm of Chaos timeline. I just wanted progression instead of stagnation, something I am happy to see them explore in 40k. AoS was a bit jarring, but I am liking it.

>>52887895
>My faction wants to fug stuff
>My faction wants to learns stuff
>My faction wants to infect stuff
>My faction wants to kill stuff

>>52888788

That's not how Chaos gods work and AoS proves it.

They destroyed the world and that's it.

>>52888076
>something I am happy to see them explore in 40k

You won't be happy for long.

Fall of Cadia is already a sign of things to come.

Chaos is the main villain. Them winning is a bad thing. The setting is supposed to be bad.

>>52888838
In fantasy maybe.
In 40k not really, it was a force the moved things into action not the villain. Chaos being the bad guy is like saying a volcano or and earthquake is evil. In 40k chaos is a force of nature, you can't just say chaos wins, because it would be like fighting a tornado.

In other words chaos in 40k should never be a great enemy but a source to make great enemies.

Armless the harmless black crusade are a good example, Assploding cadia is an example of no understanding your own lore at basic level. Dark Imperium is a stupid and bad concept.

>>52889648
What I'm getting from this is less that you want Chaos to be nerfed and more for other factions to have a fighting chance.

Which honestly, I like. 40k is about being over the top and battle-happy. If everyone else is just little ants to Chaos then nothing is challenging or fun. But if other factions are allowed to buckle down and pull out all the stops, then that just means bigger, more spectacular battles, and more organic story.

Like if Chaos DID get its shit pushed in and GW went with it, then they'd have to legitimately put the work in and their evil victory would be the sweeter for it once they actually were shown to be characters and not just a force that instant-wins.

>>52888822
Nope, read the their end of the End Times. They spent eternities slowly dissolving the world and tormenting the souls of that planet before growing bored and allowing the survivors to rebuild elsewhere.

If that's was it, then there wouldn't be AoS.

>>52889648
>Assploding cadia is an example of no understanding your own lore at basic level.

They spent nearly at entire decade explaining how the Pylons and the Crimson Path works. If anyone doesn't understand basic fluff, then it's you, dumbass.

>>52887784
Chaos is the most unique evil faction GW has.

>>52887784
TL DR

>>52887871
The problem is your tribalistic faction fanboying. Given the line:
>tyranids, the only faction chaos truly feared
I think I can guess which one.

It's because British people heavily identify with Chaos. Hooliganism is in their genes.

>>52891533

If that was the case then Orks would be better off.

>>52891413
*only

Without chaos, 40k would be generic HFY garbage.

>>52891639
I wouldn't call Chaos particularly unique, but it helps it stand out from generic stuff like Star Wars.

More Necron units plz?

Will kill Chaos Gods and turn into pokemon for fluff relevancy.

>>52891533
You are wrong.
They are brittish so they get autistic rage when something they think only belongs to them gets globalized, usually by ruining it to the point is not interesting anymore.
A good example of this is Doctor Who, they canceled the original series and when people start crying they wanted it back when everyone in England stop giving a fuck decades ago they barfed an abortion made by a gay and an asshole thst barely understan whst science-fiction is.

>>52891768
Doctor Who is *was, the new series is garbage pretty popular over here. I'm not sure where you're getting your data from.

>>52888833
But I liked gathering storm. Hell, even if they sack terra, I would be on board because at least shit is happening.

>>52887881
They retconned the gods of Law right away because they realised nobody was interested in them and they had no place in the story they'd presented, because the forces of Law were ultimately intruders in the natural world as much as Chaos, and all they'd done was give Chaos two factions that fight each other for obscure reasons.

It's an underpinning element of the setting that Chaos is a cosmic force you can't ever really defeat, the world was doomed the minute some idiots decided to make a hole in reality, and everyone has been living in the end of days since the Warhammer World was first conceived. The fact that all the evils of the world can be traced back to Chaos gives WHF a pleasing cohesion in my view. It's not faction favouritism, it's just setting the tone.

>>52887784
The writers that made GW games wonderful don't work for them anymore in the capacities they should be.

Instead, they got sick of GW's behaviour and treatment toward them and the hobby and started their *own* companies and got hired by other companies.

Now people like Robbin Cruddace, Aron Daddy Issues Bowden and Matt Ward are writing their stories. They're shit writers with little to middling ideas about how to write compelling lore or stories and no fucking idea why warhammer is so charming.

>>52893439
This.

>>52887784
Man... I wish 40k Chaos could get some love. Maybe we'll actually get a codex (equivalent) this edition.

>>52891492

I'm actually an Imperial fan, but it's objective fact that the Nids terrify the Chaos gods.

Nids can't be corrupted. They have no souls. They are completely subservient to the Hive Mind, which is too intelligent for them to control. It's like if the Emperor had an army of quintillions of fully expendable and incorruptible soldiers that did his every bidding mindlessly.

If Nids won, then no souls would be left. No souls = no worshipers and corruption. No worshipers and corruption = Chaos gods literally wither away and die.

At least that's how it was, and that's how it was pre-End Times too. Chaos couldn't afford to lose often because they needed their followers to even exist themselves. But GW decided that made their fapboys look too weak, so they hit the Chaos Wins button.

>>52891413
>>52891639
>most unique evil faction

They're a group of barbarians in Fantasy led by Saurons who answer to a bunch of manchildren Morgoths.

In 40k they're a little more intriguing, but still just the generic evil dudes.

Warhammer has few truly "unique" things, and that's the point of it. It's derivative of other works and shamelessly so, which makes it fun.

>>52893313
Again, all true, and as I said, back before End Times, the idea that the war on Chaos was an eternal struggle was a thing, and it's what made it grim dark. The war would never be over. Chaos would always rebuild and come back. However, their VICTORY was not inevitable, and men like Sigmar and Franz openly defied and demolished Chaos forces, and like the 40k Emperor Sigmar may've gone to fight the Chaos Gods themselves, and they weren't exactly pleased. Maybe even a little worried.

Then they retconned it, having a nice little "Chaos wins, everyone else sucks, buy our bo---wait, you mean people liked the other guys? But why? Chaos is so good!" ending, they yell as they hotglue another batch of CSM figurines.

>>52891309
Once upon a time the factions were mostly balanced. Chaos wasn't weak, but opposing factions were simply strong enough to beat them in favorable circumstances.

The fact that changed and Chaos is inexplicably omnipotent, done so by writers who have time and again avowed that Chaos really is their out-of-world favorite faction, is the problem at hand, and it's indirectly responsible for murdering the Fantasy franchise, and now the in-process destruction of 40k.

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>>52887871
>Bretonnia, one of the most popular factions

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>>52893605
>but it's objective fact that the Nids terrify the Chaos gods.

Find a single source that says this. I dare you.

>If Nids won, then no souls would be left. No souls = no worshipers and corruption. No worshipers and corruption = Chaos gods literally wither away and die.

See this. This lore. This is something you don't read because you are a cunt.

The Chaos Gods require no life to exist. They are eternal and self creating.

>At least that's how it was, and that's how it was pre-End Times too. Chaos couldn't afford to lose often because they needed their followers to even exist themselves. But GW decided that made their fapboys look too weak, so they hit the Chaos Wins button.

More trashy headcanon.

>I'm actually an Imperial fan

Bullshit. Fuck off, Nidfag. I swear Nidfags should be banned from the fandom.

>>52893662
>Once upon a time the factions were mostly balanced. Chaos wasn't weak, but opposing factions were simply strong enough to beat them in favorable circumstances.

Objectively false. The original WHFB RPG book made by GW said without a doubt that Chaos was going to win no matter what the gods and races of the setting do because Chaos was simply all powerful.

You can't try your history rewriting on some people who knows the lore, mate. Eat a dick.

>>52887784

Nidfags need to stop. This is just pathetic at this point.

>>52893864
>all this assbleeding butthurt

Fuck off Chaofag.

>>52893919
I got it right and it don't say shit like that. Even if it did OP and the general discussion is going off Storm of Chaos which came later, and by then it was made clear that Chaos could in fact lose and that they weren't all powerful, so even if some obscure fan supplement somewhere for 1st ed said they'd win in the end, it doesn't matter because it got retconned, but then again so did Chaos losing because Games Workshop writers became literal fucking frauds by the time of 8th ed.

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>>52893864
>>52893919
>>52894056

>thread started by a self-proclaimed imperial fan
>'wow these nidfag threads are getting pathetic'

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>>52894098

>I'm an imperialfag guys I swear! Now let me tell you about how chaos fears the nids...

>>52893919

You clearly don't know the lore, because in the earliest iterations of Warhammer Fantasy there were also the Gods of Order, Lawgods, whatever you want to call them, that were the antithesis of the Chaos Gods and powerful enough to contest control of the natural world with them. This was also back when Malal was around and threatened all the other Chaos Gods with his bullshit. It made the status of the Chaos Gods more dynamic and provided divine beings other than Sigmar who could stand up to them. The Law Gods went off with a quiet goodnight though, and it's a shame and was never really explained. They were there, then they weren't, and I'd reckon it's to follow the extremely pandering/fanwank/fanboyism of GW adopted of Chaos in both universes.

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>>52894143

Except they do???

>>52893864
I wouldn't be surprised if it was imperial propaganda and never meant to be trusted to begin with. What happens if the emperor fail? A second butthole of terror appear on Terra and Humanity goes down the sink.
The Eldars fed a chaos god for more time than Humanity existed, and they didn't rip apart reality for the rest of the galaxy. To think we are better at ruining everything than them is typically imperium-like.

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>>52887833
>>52887871
>>52891492
>>52893605
>>52893864
>>52894083
>>52894098
>>52894143
>>52894175

I'm reminded why I began to edge away from 40k lore and it's faction fanboys.

>>52894157
I don't mind these big cataclysm events that Chaos keeps getting, but I admit the "Chaos exists in multiple realities and therefor doesn't need worshippers" REALLY rubs me the wrong way.

It's like "then what's the fucking point? why even have a setting at this point?" I always thought that was kind of a fun irony, that when Chaos finally wins they'll actually lose, because they're so blindingly single-minded. But no, apparently WHFB, 40k, and even AoS all exist as bubbles in Chaos and every faction that's not Chaos just exists to entertain Chaos.

>>52887784
The Imperium and the Eldar were always royally fucked, from nids to orks to chaos. All three are basically endless and will eventually grind the Imperium down. After Llyanden, the Eldar were perma fucked as well. The only thing that's changed is that nids and orks have been totally neutered as credible threats.

>>52894299
It's incredibly lazy storytelling. Even with fanboyism and faction favoritism aside. It's just fucking bad writing. That's why I stopped following much of anything after Storm of Chaos got retconned, and why I've given up on 40k. If Chaos is always going to win and everyone is just a plaything for them, even people and groups that in editions past have been said to have the power to destroy them, then what's the point? Just release one one-page codex called "CHAOS WINS" and be done with it.

>>52894083
>Fuck off Chaofag.

Look no proofs or anything. Not even an argument.

>I got it right and it don't say shit like that. Even if it did OP and the general discussion is going off Storm of Chaos which came later, and by then it was made clear that Chaos could in fact lose and that they weren't all powerful, so even if some obscure fan supplement somewhere for 1st ed said they'd win in the end, it doesn't matter because it got retconned, but then again so did Chaos losing because Games Workshop writers became literal fucking frauds by the time of 8th ed.

Wrong again, douchebag. All editions to 8th ED has lore saying that Chaos was going to win. Even the main rulebooks.

Like i said you pathetic if you think you can rewrite history in tegee where there are actual people who read the lore.

>>52894355
But you're objectively wrong.

>>52894257
Except each time you motherfuckers go IT"S PROPAGANDA HUURR It turns out 100% true.

>The Eldars fed a chaos god for more time than Humanity existed, and they didn't rip apart reality for the rest of the galaxy. To think we are better at ruining everything than them is typically imperium-like.

And you dumbass the lore says that humanity is evolving into a psychic race more powerful than the Eldar and they act now as the main power source of Chaos in the galaxy.

Get out.

>>52894377
He says without posting a shred of PROOF but that to be expected from Nidfags.

>>52894412
>>nidfags

>>52893864
Except that one time nids killed grey knights, let chaos loose and then kicked chaos's shit in and made them run away with their tail inbetween their legs.

The only people who actually scared the nids were orks, then they just got outsmarted

>>52894355
Except for the fact they said that the last thing standing at the very end will be the nids


Wait, wait, i forgot that chaosfag is going to bring up chaos's big infinite can of bug spray

>>52894381
It's not like 40k is a fucking satire setting to begin with, AMIRITE FELLOW GHAOSBRO? XDDD
The Imperium is described as the most bloated delusional empire of the setting, but somehow every thing they say (if it's about chaos being so kewl and skerry) IS ALWAYS 100% VERY REAL SHUT UP STRAWMEN NIDSYMPATHIZERS
>GIDDOUT
>GIIDOUT
>GIDDOUT REEEEEEEEE

>>52894481
Except that's not proof that the Chaos Gods fear the Nids. The Daemons fought to the last. The only daemon that fled the battle was the Lord of Change because getting one's form destroyed means spending time in the Forge of Souls which is an annoyance.

I love how you butcher the lore and add bullshit on it.

>The only people who actually scared the nids were orks, then they just got outsmarted

That's an utter lie.

>>52894536
>Except for the fact they said that the last thing standing at the very end will be the nids

Nope, nobody said that and again no proof. It's a theme with you. Just shit without anything backing it up.

>>52894551

> but somehow every thing they say (if it's about chaos being so kewl and skerry) IS ALWAYS 100% VERY REAL SHUT UP STRAWMEN NIDSYMPATHIZERS

Except (getting tired of that word) that wasn't the Imperials saying that piece of lore. It's just a piece of lore handed by the omniscient narreator of the setting.

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>>52894551
>chaos losing = lore butchering

So now we see where your bias lies.

>>52894588
Read the nid book

>>52894536
>ok guys we'll let the end of 40k be decided by player battles
>players battle
>nids win
>WHAT NO HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN NO CHAOS WAS SUPPOSED TO WIN DAMMIT THIS IS WHY PLAYERS CAN'T BE ALLOWED TO MAKE THEIR OWN CHOICES
>next codex: everyone lost badly and then a chaos lord raped the hive mind and chaos won time to buy our next books!

Welcome to post-2007 GW.

>>52894611
"then kicked chaos's shit in and made them run away with their tail inbetween their legs".
"The only people who actually scared the nids were orks, then they just got outsmarted"

Nope, just pointing out your lies. Which are plenty.

>>52894651
not even that guy. Try again faggot.

And Chaos isn't "scared" of Nids in a literal run-away-screaming sense dumbass, they're scared because if Nids win then the Chaos Gods die, because they'll have no followers left and no way of corrupting the remaining Nids. The Hive Mind is smarter than the Chaos Gods, has more followers than the Chaos Gods, is immune to the corruption of the Chaos Gods, and is coming for the Chaos Gods. How the fuck wouldn't they be scared?

>>52894628
I did. All of them. They don't have what you say.

>>52894648
There were only two offical global campaigns in 40K history. One was won by Chaos (EoT) and the other by the Imperium (Medusa).

Tyranids weren't even close to the top three in both globals

Why do you lie like this?

>>52894686
also, the Nids are pretty much WHF's Law Gods in theory. They're a perfectly segmented and orderly society all working together under the control of a single entity for a singular purpose. They are as unchaotic as they come.

>>52894551
But that's wrong, lord of change ran first after the great unclean one died, then the rest ran with the only one not fleeing being Gary sue, sorry Khrone's greater Daemon who was dragged back by the others.

Nids are endless, incorruptable and just as adept at the warp than the daemons, daemons lost to a small section of only a scout fleet of the nids, they still have all the main fleets to fight

And yes the orks are the only ones to fear the nids as they outswarmed then, which shocked the hive mind and made it play recon until it's forces were big enough and used tactics to take out the waggghhh boss

>>52894702

I meant in general it's what happens. GW lets players do a campaign and decide lore, and if Chaos loses, they retcon it so that Chaos wins. They even did this back in Storm of Chaos, but Chaos kept losing, and finally they begrudgingly accepted it, but then threw a temper tantrum and retconned everything and then destroyed the entire world because MUH KAOS must always win.

>>52894686
>And Chaos isn't "scared" of Nids in a literal run-away-screaming sense dumbass, they're scared because if Nids win then the Chaos Gods die, because they'll have no followers left and no way of corrupting the remaining Nids.

That's false and headcanon. The Chaos Gods aim is the destruction of all life in the galaxy. >>52893864 In fact, Nurgle through Morty are creating a plague to end all life in the galaxy as we speak. He is going unleash it in Ultramar (Hand of Darkness).

>The Hive Mind is smarter than the Chaos Gods

False. Shadowbrink proves without a doubt that the Hivemind is senile.

>has more followers than the Chaos Gods

Daemons are literally infinite.

>is immune to the corruption of the Chaos Gods,

Not their physical forms.

>and is coming for the Chaos Gods.

No, it's not.

>How the fuck wouldn't they be scared?

Because they are not a threat to them.

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>>52894702
Sure you have

Also of course nids lost, have you seen any of their codex's post 5th, just further proof be hates them and loves Mary sues

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>>52894778

>>52894778
This reads like an analysis of Warhammer lore from the point of view of a 13 year old just entering the edgelord punk-emo phase who picked up the Chaos Codex without reading anything else, skimmed through 10 or so pages, then declared himself a genius and the authority on canon.

>>52894731
>then the rest ran with the only one not fleeing being Gary sue, sorry Khrone's greater Daemon who was dragged back by the others.

Everyone died doing one last charge except for the lord of Change who is the only one who crossed into the portal.

>Nids are endless

Not endless only 12 galaxies worth of biomass.

>and just as adept at the warp than the daemons

Nopew, Chaos are masters of the Warp ands its magics.

> lost to a small section of only a scout fleet of the nids, they still have all the main fleets to fight

Chaos daemons have more victories against Tyranids than the other way around.

And in cae you didn't notice the Warp is going drag the galaxy into it very soon.

>And yes the orks are the only ones to fear the nids as they outswarmed then, which shocked the hive mind and made it play recon until it's forces were big enough and used tactics to take out the waggghhh boss

That's an utter butchering of the Octrarius first fight. No, the Nids do not fear the Orks. They just got ambushed at the start and there is no piece of lore that describes the Hiveminds feelings on the matter.

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>>52894869

>>52894852
>>52894799
Ad homs.

You can do better than that.

>>52894779
Except (again) The both campaigns were in 4th ED which had the best Nid codex ever in the history of the game, and Tyranid players still lost royally. There is no excuse. Nidfags can't play the game.

>>52894735
Not in 40K. They retconned Chaos's grand victory into a minor victory.

>>52894918
>you can do better than that

I know, but this guy's blatantbait is getting tiresome.

>retconned their victory into a minor one

What? Chaos is dominating the galaxy right now and is set to destroy it. There's nothing minor about it. Ever since End Times GW has retconned everything in the favor of Chaos.

>>52894869
>More wins against nids
You mean they one fight they had in which they lost horribly

>Chaos is masters of the warp
Sure and that's why where ever they go they block out the warp like the nids

>12 galaxies worth of biomass
Source: my ass

And of course it could care less about what happened at octarius, but it's obviously a shock when it faced an enemy who it couldn't just just lots of shit at

>>52894956
>I know, but this guy's blatantbait is getting tiresome.

Are you talking about me or the other guy.

>What? Chaos is dominating the galaxy right now and is set to destroy it. There's nothing minor about it. Ever since End Times GW has retconned everything in the favor of Chaos.
>facepalm.gif

I was talking about the old EoT campaign which Chaos won. If GW went with the results instead of rewriting it to be a minor victory the galaxy would be in a similar state that it is now.

>>52894972
>>52894972
>You mean they one fight they had in which they lost horribly

Nope, the Daemonkin has at least 3 fights against the Tyranids which ended with Chaos curbstomping the nids.

The Coven supp has daemons invading the ships of a tendril of Leviathan and then ripping the tendril apart.

>Sure and that's why where ever they go they block out the warp like the nids

They can do better than that. They can create Warpstorms which Tyranids dare not enter.

>Source: my ass

Source is the 5th ED main rulebook. The Tyranid introduction page, you newfag dumbass.

>And of course it could care less about what happened at octarius, but it's obviously a shock when it faced an enemy who it couldn't just just lots of shit at

Wow nice opinion you got here. Would be nice if you can back it up with lore

>>52895075
>Wow nice opinion you got here. Would be nice if you can back it up with lore

That sums up literally all of your posts.

>>52895184
Except I gave citations and prepared to even copypaste them from the digital books that I have with me right now.

Try again, dumbass.

>>52895208
>gave citations

No, you didn't.

>gave digital books

No, except for a single excerpt talking about how if the Emperor falls then Chaos will win, which is still not even remotely close to anything you've claimed, Chaosfag.

>>52895208
>>52895279
And even then, the whole problem at hand is Chaos wins too much because of GW's shit writing and basically hitting a button that lets them win because of some bullshit story of muh nihilism and muh chaos never loses that didn't exist in either Warhammer universe until the last 10 years or so. Pointing to new books where Chaos wins isn't proving your point, it's proving ours.

>>52895075
Iirc that's how many galaxies they've consumed, so they must be bigger

Doesn't current lore state that nearly all Orks are immune to chaos due to their single-mindedness? Seems to me that if Orks are resistant Tyranids are nearly impossible to fuck with since literally all they care for is food.

>>52895279
Except I did. I gave codex and novel names.

> which is still not even remotely close to anything you've claimed

The claim that Chaos does not require life to exist? Read the piece again.

"All life will end". Eat a dick, you illiterate waste of space.

>>52895320
If the Emperor dies.

Chaos is still not infinite and still not all powerful. Sorry, sport. Hey, look on the bright side: GW's only getting worse, so I'm sure in the next codex they'll say Slaanesh is raping the Emperor and Chaos is winning, so maybe then you'll be happy. They might even include a Green Day album with the codex. Wouldn't that be super for you?

>>52895318
>Doesn't current lore state that nearly all Orks are immune to chaos due to their single-mindedness?

No, in fact Orks have fallen to Chaos in recent fluff (Angron's Monolith, CSM 6th ED codex "Green Death").

>Tyranids are nearly impossible to fuck with since literally all they care for is food.

Storm of Iron has a Tyranid Hiveship infected with the taint of Chaos and dragged to the Eye where sorcerers and warpsmiths took turns breaking its psychic defences and converting it to a titan landing ship.

The novel "Daemon World" has Slaaneshi warband having enslaved Tyranid monsters working the bone mines.

>>52895320
>Using novels as sources
Who could forget such miraculous tales such as when a space marine in terminator armour single handedly picked up a one ton lictor, through it with one hand and threw bullets at it with the other killing it

Terminator does alot but picking up a one ton lictor with one hand isn't one of them

>>52895364
>Chaos is still not infinite and still not all powerful.

Yes, it is.

>If the Emperor dies.

Not even that. The new lore says that the Pylons are the only things keeping the Warp from devouring the galaxy.

And motherfucker how is this relevant to the fact that Chaos doesn't need life to exist? Emperor dies and the Chaos Gods erase the galaxy from existence including all life in it. Guess what? Only Chaos will remain forever.

>>52895389
Upon rereading i have just realised that he was in fact just curious George a gun and not throwing bullets, the lictor throw is still bs thougn

>>52895425
>the new lore

Which is exactly what we're arguing about

Exactly what we're saying sucks

You baiting motherfucker.

This is the last (You) you'll get from me.

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>>52895389
>Terminator does alot but picking up a one ton lictor with one hand isn't one of them

I dunno about that Terminators grant a lot of strength and come marines are especially strong.

And it's not like a unique thing even. A Lychguard grabbed a Lictor by the back and lifted him up before ripping out its spine.

>>52895454
Nice deflection there. You didn't address the main point that Chaos doesn't require life.

You lost. Good riddance

>>52895389
Anything by Black Library has a 95/5 shot of either being schlocky fanwank or genuinely good literature.

>>52894355
>All editions to 8th ED has lore saying that Chaos was going to win. Even the main rulebooks.
Prove it.

>>52895524
He's baiting hard.

He's just gonna reply saying "WELL I READ IT SO THAT'S ALL THE CITATION YOU NEED YOU LOSE"

He hates nids though, fuck they didn't even get a 7th edition codex

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>>52895561
Get rekt.

>>52895524
>The physical and spiritual corruption of the races engineered by the Old Slann will ultimately destroy them. Even creatures created by the forces of Chaos are doomed to extinction. For, with Chaos' final triumph, all life will decay into a seething mass of protoplasm in which lost and screaming souls float helplessly, enduring the forms thrust upon them by the uncaring gods of Chaos. But the victory of Chaos, although certain, may be delayed - for Lawful and other non-Chaotic void creatures will strive to protect their own identities and ideals. With the victory of Chaos, they too will be swept back into the voids to rejoin the identities from which they were created as the gateways fell.

-WFRP 1st edition p. 268

Like I said I have plenty of digital books. All you need is just ask.

>>52895472
That's a bit more believable but still bs, gw just forgets the lictors weight when they see fit

But with the terminator picking him up isn't the real bs, throwing him through the air with only one hand is

>>52895606
Having all the books ready and at hand just to win an argument with some anon on the internet


What level of autism is this?

But chaosfag, who is your favourite chaos god?

>>52895642
I get the books because I enjoy reading them and they help me with my world building. Using them to beat down biased liars on the internet is just a bonus.

>>52895606
>flavor text from chaos book reciting chaos-originating prophecy = solid lore on how chaos is always going to win

Plus, the 1E lore was retconned to make way for the Order Gods, because back then GW believed making Chaos overpowered was a bad thing, so they turned it more from a one-sided hopeless struggle into a two-sided extremely difficult struggle. This was the height of Warhammer Fantasy and when it was at its most popular and best-received by fans.

Then some douchebag at GW decided Chaos not being overpowered was a bad thing and retconned it again.

Try a-fucking-gain and 'get rekt', Chaosfaggot.

Kharneth

>>52895659
The novels aren't a good source though

>>52895659
>beat down biased liars
>beat down
>biased
>liars
>not even winning the argument

>>52895642
It's a level of autism that I think not even the Eldritch could comprehend. To think that out there in the world exists some dude with a stockpile of books at hand, refreshing internet pages all day to find people to "beat down" if they don't like Chaos, all by using distorted facts, non-canon or flavor text material, and claiming they win when they don't even make a concise point. The Chaos Internet Defense Force strikes again.

>>52895606
It doesn't look like chaos was going to win, but was going to be delayed.

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>tfw chaosfag is actually Matt ward

>>52895670
>Plus, the 1E lore was retconned to make way for the Order Gods, because back then GW believed making Chaos overpowered was a bad thing,

History revision again.

The fact that Chaos was destined to win didn't change across the editions. It carried over towards the End Times.

You don't get to dismiss anything as flavor text and try to use your baseless opinion as its better. That's rude.

I am getting tired of your no proofs, mister "I just got rekt".

>>52895723
Hasn't he posted on tg before?

I wouldn't be surprised if it's him tbqh. I've seen some chaosfags, but never chaosfags this delusional and headcanoned.

>>52895695
>>not even winning the argument

The side that proved evidence which supports it argument won.

Also nice ad hom.

>>52895490
Okay, chaosfag.
If chaos doesn't require life, as you say, then it's just a case of GW being stupid at writing, as usual.
Nothing says that your chaos wankfaggotry won't be retconned, which would be the only coherent decision that we could expect from GW.
If they don't, it's fine. No one will ever accept your shitty nurgle fanfiction, even if one of their uncompetent writers back it. Fanon will still be better than Canon. We're a patient bunch.

>>52895721
"But the victory of Chaos, although certain, may be delayed "
>although certain
>certain

>>52895727

It's flavor text of a prophecy by Chaos about Chaos in one of their books. It isn't necessarily truthful. Ork books say the Orks are destined to win and will stomp everyfing cuz its orky. Imperial books say the Imperium will win and annihilate everything in the Emperor's name. Eldar books say they will rebuild and become a great space elf empire again.

Shocking surprise - faction codexes cater to the faction they're about (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Plus, before the End Times Chaos was getting its shit caved in constantly, and before 2010 it was canon and GW put up with it until they decided to retcon it all, forgetting that not everyone loves Chaos, and no one loves Chaos as much as they do.

Except maybe you, but you're included in there already, Mr. Ward.

>>52895748
>then it's just a case of GW being stupid at writing, as usual.

Look I don't really care about your opinion on GW. I am just reading off what's written the lore.

>Nothing says that your chaos wankfaggotry won't be retconned

And If it was retconned, then I would argue for new lore instead of trying to replace it with my headcanon and delusion. Because you know why? I ain't a biased fanboy.

>>52895721
Initially Chaos was said to be stalled, but then Sigmar became a thing and it was said he departed the Empire to go fight the Chaos Gods mano-y-mano and turn the tide of the world. I don't know what the bumfuck retarded lore of AoS says, but in the Storm of Chaos canon it was left ambiguous as to how successful he was. However, it was made clear that for once Chaos lost very, very badly, and a sense of hope and valor was in the air as Archaon was beaten, which implied that, if anything, Sigmar was holding his own against the Chaos Gods and waning their influence, little by little.

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>>52895812
>I ain't a biased fanboy

Because the setting is grimdark and GW wants to make it look like the Imperium is doomed

why is this so hard to understand

>>52895817
To be honest in the Storm, Chaos was a fucking pinata. They had a 50% bonus in every campaign battle and still managed to lose HARD with a pretty balanced army book.

It was a fucking rampage. Best summer for wargaming.

>>52895844
you'd be right if it weren't for the fact that unstoppable chaos is a very new development in warhammer lore and one that has been derided and hated by many fans thanks to it giving birth to aos and now tgs. chaos was always a major antagonist but never as powerful as they became in 2010 onward

>>52895859
Yup, it was a fun time for everyone, but in the end, Chaos lost fair and square.


Too bad GW didn't agree.

>>52895812
So you basically don't have any fucking opinion on your own besides from your autistic retranscription of books, but somehow your reading of the books manage to be biased and untrustworthy, because you're completely unable to see when the books themselves are biased (e.g >>52895606).


Howdy how do we scale that on the asperger spectrum?

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>>52895777
>It's flavor text of a prophecy by Chaos about Chaos in one of their books.

How do you know it's by Chaos?

>Ork books say the Orks are destined to win and will stomp everyfing cuz its orky

If they unite it says perhaps they might win. They won't unite.

>mperial books say the Imperium will win and annihilate everything in the Emperor's name.

Their lore in the 7th ED main rulebook says this (paraphrase) that these are the last days of the Imperium which would lead to either damnation or salvation for humanity.

>Eldar books say they will rebuild and become a great space elf empire again.

picture related. The only hope of anything the Eldar got was in the Iyanden supp which expanded the Ynnead sup-plot. The main codexes emphasised heavily how fucked the Eldar are and doesn't even give them a win condition.

>Shocking surprise - faction codexes cater to the faction they're about (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

It isn't as black and white as you make it out to be. The Admech and Temp codexes showed their factions in bad light.

>Plus, before the End Times Chaos was getting its shit caved in constantly, and before 2010 it was canon and GW put up with it until they decided to retcon it all, forgetting that not everyone loves Chaos, and no one loves Chaos as much as they do.

They only retconned SoC because according to Gav's interview back then they didn't like the direction the setting was going because they didn't know where to go from there.

GW also retconned Chaos's victory in EoT for the same reason. So it wasn't Chaos favouritism, it was fear of plot progress.

>>52895922
>ecause you're completely unable to see when the books themselves are biased

Prove they are biased.

See >>52895958

The Admech codex calls the Admech stupid morons who damage the technology of Imperium beyond repair and would continue to do so as long as they have the power and authority. This is bias towards who?

>>52895958
>they didn't like the direction the setting was going

They didn't like the fact that Chaos lost.

I'll admit that maybe I'm guilty of headcanoning too by keeping my perspective of Warhammer Fantasy in the SoC era, but it's non-headcanoning objective fact that everything after SoC was divisive and garnered mixed reception at best, autistic fits of rage at worst.

Everything after SoC and its retcon sucked to me, and to me, that's the problem at hand. It's been a downward spiral ever since, and somehow all of the worst-received bits of Warhammer lore, like AoS and Gathering Storm, have started with Chaos being retconned into being unbeatable.

It really makes you think.

>>52896038
>They didn't like the fact that Chaos lost.

Nope, they feared change. Chaos won in EoT overwhelming. They slowly played it down in 5th ED before writing it off completely in 5th ED. This proves that Chaos wasn't a factor at all or else GW would have kept the EoT results as they were originally.

The only thing that GW cares about is Market Appeal.

>>52896099
played it down in 4th ED*

>>52896099
I'll give you that, yeah, but that was after they realized fans weren't happy when they plot armored Chaos and let it win unopposed.

Eye of Terror also came at a time when balance was... questionable, but yes, you're right. By how the battles went, Chaos should've won more.

However, as of late that mindset is being changed, and Chaos is going back to its End Times self of being unstoppable and unbeatable because GW can't write for shit.

>>52896038
>hates AoS
>hates overpowered chaos
>AoS has two elves kidnapping Slaanesh

Does not compute

>>52896209
I hate AoS more than I hate overpowered Chaos. However, at least AoS is a little better about the whole "Chaos can never be stopped" thing.

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>>52887784
Here's how the End Times should have gone.

>Archaon invades
>let players dictate what happens through battles
>as the players begin to win, learn that a fragment of the polar gate is still active, creating a portal through which chaos leeks
>start revealing plans by various casters to shut off chaos from the north
>but first, Archaon
>lead up to crazy fight against Archaon, of course ends in his death

side note
>lizardmen start taking back temple cities, cleansing spawning pools
>now unified Alliance of Order led by Karl Franz begins heading north.
>VCs and TKs try fighting the Alliance because cutting off Chaos will cut off magic/need to survice
>but we know player turn out wont be enough so whatever

what's with all these side notes
>chaos dwarves being overun by black orcs and ogres working together
>dark eldar may or may not get brought back into the fold, ignore all ET malekith lore
>Lizardmen launch enormous invading force through the oceanic skaven tunnels, destroying skavens by the millions
>skaven try to collapse tunnel, Slann use earth magic to keep it open, then enlarge and strengthen it
>spawning pools are churning out broods almost non stop. There is a giant line from the temple cities to the tunnel, through the tunnel, and almost into the old world.
>skaven unleashes it's collective might against the lizardmen, unified for the first time in forever
>giant clash between the Horned Rat, Sotek, and the Slann. Horned Rat kills Sotek, but Mazdamundi kills the Horned Rat

cont

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>>52896628
back to the main fight
>elves, humans, dwarves march on the north
>hard fighting, lots of named characters dying, but full of hope
>lizardmen coming up from the south, ignoring everything and rushing North as quick as possible
>GREAT! more help!
>get deep into chaos wastes, manage to hold off chaotic corruption by use of magic and faith
>find ruins of polar gate, demons pouring out
>colossal fight, but while hard lack of real response from chaos disturbing.

>start building device to close the portal
>lizardmen attack from behind
>what?
>rushed construction of device
>lizardmen are frantic in their fight

>device turns on, something is wrong
>device is POWERING the portal, more demons are coming through
>reveal traitor or influence of Tzeentch
>justasplanned.jpg
>lizardmen were trying to stop alliance from dooming everyone
>as chaos destroys everything, alliance and lizardmen rush back
>lady of the lake rallies Bretonnian knights of al ages to fight the tide, drastically slow chaos because DEUS VULT but destruction eminent
>reveal cycle nonsense
>the gods, heroes, and casters of all living and dead create new world
>evacuate, lose a ton
>age of sigmar

How that sound?

>>52896652
Age of Sigmar shouldn't have happened at all in any scenario.

>>52893864
hello carnac, how about you go suicide yourself ?

>>5289565
Corn approves of dis hate

Chaos exist to be the big bad enemy, the constant and eternal threat. The nids are boring because they are just a force of nature without any personality, just a crashing tide. It's not something that I would want to see removed but it's not something that carries any kind of interesting storytelling potential. If you play up genestealers then it can have more depth or detail.

The nids fulfill a good function of an unthinking irresistible march of death you often see in fantasy but by that nature it can be nothing more than a plot device. If you're doing _____ vs Chaos you can delve into both sides for perspectives, dynamics off the battlefield. If you're doing _______ vs nids you have a single perspective and angle to approach. Orks, despite all their fightiness, have more you can work with for storytelling than nids.

And cmon 40k has always been big on the hyperbole of apocalypse and any faction that isn't the tau having the potential to become all powerful and all consuming:

Eldar and the death god
Emperor and reincarnation
Chaos
Nids
All necrons waking up (and you nidfag, why doesn't Chaos fear the crons as much as the nids? They'll do the same thing)
A really fucking big waaaagh

>>52894098

Astroturfing. You'll often see people claim to be part of something to lend credence to their position.

>>52891695
Proactive Silent King with supporting model would be bad ass.

As a fantasy player who witnessed the saltmines what were storm of chaos, end times and age of sigmar, I must say I am honestly surprised that the 40k crowd is somehow worse.

The butthurt caused by even the slightest change in the fluff (and fuck you, compared to what happened to fantasy the new 40k map is kiddy shit) is absolutely staggering. Get a grip on yourself.

>>52896628
>>52896652
This is somehow even worse than the official fluff.

>>52898473
I wonder if they just don't realize or choose to ignore the fact that there is literally nothing stopping them from playing whatever edition they enjoy.