ITT: Cliches you hate but are too polite to say anything about

>>52883020
>The Bad Guys were you all along.

>>52883020
>magic turns out to just be advanced technology... once again.

>magic and technology are opposites

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>>52883020
>Villain gets away with everything because someone worse than him showed up.

>Person who wants revenge for the death of a family member turns evil to get it, even if there's no reason to.

>The most important religion in the setting is corrupt and evil, possibly also a front for an evil eldritch abomination

>BBEG destroys your PC's hometown and kills their family, now you have a reason to want to stop him!

>If you kill him, you'll be just like him

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>>52883020
>The princess/queen/helpless damsel was really the final BBEG.

I dunno, I might just have some weird luck getting DMs who have a fetish for this, but I swear to Pelor every time we have to rescue a female character, she's secretly using us to advance her own power for some sinister purpose.

>>52883310
Related:

>interesting high fantasy setting is le post apocalyptic nuclear earth ecksdee

>>52883416
To be fair, that sometimes works if it's not set up like a twist and just part of the setting

>>52883020
I'm so sorry I botched the twist, guys. It was all working so perfectly until I spilled on the reveal.
>>52883397
Well, shit.
Right now, the little Princess is being manipulated. If she continues down her current path, she will become evil, though, and put her adoptive father to shame. She will not be helpless by any means at that point.
(These are different campaigns.)
Amazing how two of my current longrunning campaigns have twists that show up within four posts, while people say they enjoy my campaigns. Maybe I'm just good with cliches.

Peaceful orcs and goblins.

>>52883020
>nature good, civilization evil

>millennia old elves
>millennia old elves only ever doing one thing only
>millennia old elves only ever doing one thing only, which makes them somehow super wise despite only ever experiencing glorified monastic nothing

>>52883480
Yeah, Nier did it pretty well. I think my hatred of it comes from watching the Scrapped Princess anime as a kid.

>>52883682
Milennia-old elves work as NPCs, but make no sense for PCs when a person who's lived for 17 years has the same amount of life and combat experience as someone who's lived for 300.

Mono-cultural demihumans are stupid as fuck in general, though. It only works if your humans are also monocultural, and even then, the entire trope makes no sense.

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>>52883020
>Just because a race is in the PHB or an expansion book, it suddenly HAS to exist in the world, whether that world is homebrew or an established setting already. Worse still, said race has to be a major world power now with it's own civilization/country/continent.

Like, I get that nobody wants their unique creation to be irrelevant of have no presence, but when you start having like 20, 30, 50+ races that you have to do this for, it starts to turn world lore into a bit of clusterfuck, just so somebody can play some retarded special-snowflake who's different than everything else that exists in the world.

>>52883601
I prefer insular, isolationist, xenophobic Goblins. Orcs are too oriented towards raiding to be peaceful, but I don't blanket-assign alignments to them either, so some raid, some farm, some do both. It's just part of their culture so in some places it's just considered normal and in others they are hunted because of it.

To answer the OP though: the troubled hero. Nobody ever does it right.

>>52883397
>princess/queen/helpless damsel was really the final BBEG.
Because they're probably the only thing you don't immediately murder for xp and loot.

Also the closest he can get to your characters showing something resembling vulnerability.

>>52883816
Mono-culture can actually make a lot of sense. But only in a situation where it's nigh impossible to get to them or they have been in stasis and even then even in the most conservative societies you'll likely see some gradual shifts.

The basic you have ninja's living a mile down the road from knights though is flat out bullshit.

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>>52883889
Sounds like a personal issue, considering our party rarely ever kills ANY sentient beings except in absolute self-defense. We actually don't allow evil alignments in our games...

>>52883889
Wow, so much assumption and butthurt here. Just because you play with retards on Roll20, don't assume everyone else is a friendless basement-dweller forced to play with edgy teenagers on the internet. Holy shit.

>>52883950
That's your games man, my games are different.

>>52883991
>Murderhobos aren't the most common players

>>52884076
They apparently are for the anon he's reply to. Because you know, one person's experiences are universal and apply to everyone.

>>52883020
>Your character is from modern Earth and they get pulled into another world/an occult underground

I can barely manage to force myself to come up with a character for anything that starts off in modern Earth any more because there's no fucking point. Anything interesting will be irrelevant immediately because that's not part of the new world they find themselves in, and I can't just make a character that makes sense in a setting because it just HAS to all be new and confusing to the PCs.

>>52884181
>person from real world goes to fantasy world
>bland protagonist for audience to project onto
Hand me the noose

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>Side character: This monster absorbs all magic around it. You can't affect it with magic even indirectly, it will only get stronger. Seriously, don't even think about casting a spell!
>Main character: Nah, I'll just feed it a fuckton of magic on purpose until it explodes!
And you know it will explode because...

>>52883857
This but with real world human skin colors. People who think any fantasy setting HAS to have people who look Asian, HAS to have blacks, HAS to have whites. It's fantasy, it's fiction, you can make anything you want. If you want to make Game of Thrones but everyone's Mongolian, fine, do it. Don't feel compelled to include Hispanics just because they exist in real life. This ties in to all that bullshit about "inclusion".

>>52884261
I'm just generally sick of every setting having a not!asia, not!africa, not!arabia, etc. I'd prefer starting with the typical medieval european base and then coming up with your own cultures. This is especially annoying when the map looks like a slightly tweaked Earth.

t. WHFB, Golarion

>>52884181
> Anything interesting will be irrelevant immediately because that's not part of the new world they find themselves

That plot is easy to fuck up but it can be done pretty well. Someone from mondern day earth will have very different experiences and life then someone from another world.

Some guy who spent years working mining or a construction job and has been divorced twice will react a lot differently then a poet who has spent a few years living in the alps writing his next book.

I think the biggest screw up people have in these works is they tend to not make the new person relevant enough to not just have a native be the protagonist.

>>52883020
>You guys are part of a mercenary group

>>52883794
It gets even better in NieR: Automata where it's not just post-apocalyptic high fantasy, it's gone through enough apocalypses that it circled back on itself and became both high fantasy and high sci-fi.

>Adventurers are dirty mercenaries and nobody likes them NYEH!

Like, let me be a fucking hero for once.

>>52884557
>Wanting people and authority to like armed men and women using weapons.
>People who tend to be foreigners at that.

>>52883857
Aarakocra live in mountains and in small numbers, as do most of Volo's races, just replacing (mountain) with an habitat that gives you an excuse to be ignored if you don't want to use them nor delete them.

Is that ok?

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>>52884459
I prefer this to "You all meet up in a tavern" at least/ It at least implies your characters have existing ties and reason to trust eachother already, rather than being a bunch of randos who met in a bar and decided to trust total strangers with your lives.

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>>52883020
>seven years later, campaign is down to two players
>"One of you is a traitor"
>they both get it wrong

>>52884654
>They both get it wrong
So the traitor was already dead?
Otherwise I'm not liking the direction this is headed.

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>>52883020
>>52884610

>Races that are just "They're Humans, but with AN ANIMAL TRAIT!"

Fuck this shit, for real.

>>52884677
None of them are?
Maybe the tabaxi.
But the giantkin and merfolk are really far from it.
And the Aarakocra have really different culture and views, making players often annoying if played well. Similar stuff with the lizarmen.

>>52884731
Tabaxi are the main offender, also the choice race of powergamer fags.

>>52884749
Yeah, Aarakocra are alien creatures with clashing moralities with most societies, Lizardmen are more like a bigger lizard in two legs than a scaled human.
Then the Tabaxi are gypsy cats.

>>52884608
Games aren't real life.

>>52883397
>when the GM was hurt and betrayed by a woman in his past so he has women hurt and betray the party
Sad really.

>>52884884
I think it's less THAT and more the shitty attempt at shock value from the idea that pure innocent creatures like women might actually be justt as power-hungry, manipulative, and capable as anyone else.

"Hurrbdurr Game of Thrones did it, I will be a great DM if I try to shove it in too, without understanding how or why it worked!"

>>52884261
I don't really get why that's a bad thing? It would honestly be kinda shitty if you let people play demonblooded, dragonblooded, and have in setting justifications for that but you can't play a Black or Asian guy because reasons.

Like jerking yourself off over "inclusion is bad", but I don't see what's wrong with having options like that.

>>52884983
There's a reason "nerds have problems with women" is such a common trope in shitty comedies

Women warriors being commonplace instead of novelties.

>>52884983
Shitty ANIME do this all the time too, without understanding how or why it works when used correctly.

>>52884983
Honestly that tends to be how I play most of the noble women in my games personally. Not sure why but I really like my cynical asshole manipulators.

>>52883344
Are...are you describing the plot of Naruto right now?

>>52885717
Sounds a bit more like Berserk to me. Mainly the

>Villain gets away with everything because someone worse than him showed up.

>Person who wants revenge for the death of a family member turns evil to get it, even if there's no reason to.

>The most important religion in the setting is corrupt and evil, possibly also a front for an evil eldritch abomination

stuff

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>>52883344
>>The most important religion in the setting is corrupt and evil, possibly also a front for an evil eldritch abomination
Blame it on JRPGs, which you can blame on japan's weird as fuck relation with western religions.

>>52883794
Oh thank god, someone else hated that. I'm surrounded by twats here that can watch the main character whine for hours on end for some reason.

>>52883682
>millennia old elves only ever doing one thing only
I remember a book series with elves that had given up their magic, so their main schtick was being obscenely good at common everyday shit. Like, they make camo cloaks that aren't magic, but might as well be, because they're that fucking good. They make completely nonmagical armor that can stand up to shit magical armor can't. If you're halfway up a mountain in the middle of a goddamn windstorm in a set of hanging sleeping bags, there will still be hot tea somehow, and it will be the best goddamn tea you've ever tasted.

>mfw eldritch entities just look like random people
>mfw the royal guard/watch/any standing military that's not the party get slaughtered en masse to show how badass the BBEG is
>mfw the DM goes to painful lengths to emphasise how normal and ordinary obvious plot artifact is
>mfw I know what it's like to be built this way, with only the power to push others away

>>52883020
>Leader of [organization based around skill] is ALWAYS the most skillful member of that organization.
I once had a player revolt on my hands because an argument broke out after I informed them that no, the leader of the local city's mage guild was not the best mage in it.

>>52885942
Did you stop running for those faggots?

>>52884646
It's the exact reverse, you moron. "You are mercs" implies they work together. "You met in a tavern" means they've literally just met there. Hell, maybe even didn't met, but just sit in different parts of the tavern and need to met first.

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>Evil magic corrupts in a nonspecific manner just to get around any safeguards you might try
>Evil magic causes incredibly obvious physical signs anyone can detect
>Evil magic isn't even fucking worth what you'd be paying out for it mechanically

>>52885942
I once had a 5 minute conversation with my bewildered players who were struggling to understand that a priest npc couldn't cast any healing spells for them because he didn't have cleric class levels. He was just a member of the clergy and a missionary.

>>52886095
If evil magic were easy, everyone would use it.

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>>52886082
>Calls people morons
>Completely fails at basic reading comprehension.

>>52883020
>Perverted old man character who harasses pretty much everyone but never faces any serious consequences for what he does.

>Reoccurring "funny" character who screws over the party in LOLSOFUNNEY ECSDEE ways, but is inexplicably good at running away and dodging so he can survive to make himself a nuisance another day.

My DM has been watching too many shitty anime.

I swear though, if "El Bandito, greatest thief in the world" steals the party's food and escapes through fiat one more time, the DM is getting a broken nose.

>>52887749
>>Perverted old man character who harasses pretty much everyone.

Is nobody in the party playing a male character who's not some beta caster-cuck? Step it up, defend ur womenz in the party and fuck that old man up.

Unless your DM is the kind of faggot who's like "LOL the old man is secretly a retired level 20 adventurer monk who will end you with his super powerful martial arts LOL ECKSDEE"

>God is the badguy, the devil din do nuffin

Sometimes it's bad enough that it makes me want to drop a game.

>>52887816
As in, the old man dodges everything we throw at him, rather conspicuously without the clatter of dice from behind the DM screen.

The DM's attempts at comic relief characters are extremely obnoxious, and it seems like he hasn't even noticed that no one likes them.

>>52887816
>some beta caster-cuck

There's no need to be THIS mad over caster superiority, anon

>>52887888
It's more just that I'm tired of every caster ever being the timid quiet bookish type with no personality other than "I read alot". I feel like alot of the time this happens because the player themselves are too busy crunching with their spells to actually develop an actual CHARACTER, so they just revert to this quick and easy stereotype without actually changing anything up about it.

I'm fine with religion being corrupt at the higher echelons of power, because that's just how things do.

Religion as a concept being bad is something that kind of makes me just roll my eyes, since while you can of course have your corrupt small town ministers and shit (stereotypes exist for a reason), a lot of holy folk just do it because they think that's what's right.

Now bad actions resulting from good people with good intentions, that works out fine (despite le edgy meme "hate degenerate" culture on a site full of porn, anime, and anime porn saying otherwise).

But an oldie that pisses me off?

>the paladin falls because of x action being evil by some definition

Oi fuck you, I either had to save the church run orphanage or save the nun.

>>52883020
>''And they lived happily ever after''

>>52883480
>tfw this is the basis of my games setting that I'm designing
Fuck....well let's hope I can pull it off

>>52883020

Humans being the generic as fuck, I can do anything, but I don't have anything especial guy because the creator couldn't be bothered to make a role for them in the setting/story.

>>52885017
Because in this particular setting, demonblooded people exist and hispanics (for example) don't.

I mean turn that argument on its head for a moment. If you had a grounded, realistic setting based on africa and a player wanted to play a half-blooded demon tabaxi you'd tell them to fuck off because it doesn't fit the setting.

Characters have to fit the setting, if you try to include EVERYTHING in a setting it turns into a monumental clusterfuck and just feels kinda lashed together. You have to pick and choose what to exclude.

>Morons claiming 'good is not nice' when all they do is just trying to excuse their kind of petty evil as "good" somehow

>Claiming doing evil things to evil people is good

>Claiming anarchy and free for all is better than rule of law because it somehow equals more liberty when all it means is freedom for the strong to oppress the weak however they see fit, by brute strength, economically, or politically

It's like cloistered teenagers and young adults living in first (or at worst second) world countries had no idea what any of these means in practice and instead of using their brains for once they choose to cling into edgy, cool sounding thing, and sadly a lot of them don't grow up from it...

>>52889194
>Claiming doing evil things to evil people is good

I want to agree with you but I guess that really depends on what you consider "doing evil things" to evil people to be, here.

I've played with a paladin player who was a gigantic edgelord teetering on an oathbreaker who played like he was Gonlin Slayer and that was obnoxious as fuck, but I've also had GMs tell me that I as a Paladin wasn't allowed to execute the pillaging warlord we beat because he had surrendered and needed to be carted three days through the woods back to the nearest town to stand trial and I always thought that was kind of bullshit

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>the villain gets away with the terrible things they did because they did it for noble reasons/out of love

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>>52883020
>The campaign's antagonist could wipe the players out from the start but chooses not to for no real reason except (maybe) overconfidence or because he can't be arsed to.
Bonus points if the player characters are prophesized or heroes of legend or in some other way foretold to be the only ones who could ever defeat the antagonist.

>>52889477
does "can only die through the heroes, and wants to commit suicide by hero" count as a good reason?

>>52885755
The hell are you on about? I could see

>The most important religion in the setting is corrupt and evil, possibly also a front for an evil eldritch abomination

But even then they really aren't evil, just misguided and also literally the Catholic church at the height of the Inquisition. And unlike irl, their Inquisition is kind of justified, considering demons literally exist and walk amongst humans in that setting.

For the other two, name one example.

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>IT WAS ALL A DREAM AND YOU DONT REALLY EXIST NOTHING HAS CONSEQUENCES
>This clearly happy go lucky world has a DARK UNDERTONE (that's totally subtle right guys?) The fairies commit ritualistic sacrifice every weekend. The little old lady is actually a blood witch. They mayor is a mimic. The entire town is a mimic.
>The players fucked up. Shit, I have to throw them bone #307 because my campaign must continue as intended, I have a story to tell!
and the worst:
>I saw this in an anime and/or greentext screencap on /tg/ it'll be totally hilarious!

>>52889477
Have you ever seen a BBEG that start as a SBEG and grow to a world threat in that time as PC grow from peasants and orphans to a mighty heroes?

>>52884677

Do I even want the source for this image? Tell me anyway, I'll take the chance.

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>>52889823
>I saw this in an anime and/or greentext screencap on /tg/ it'll be totally hilarious!

I actually do this in a not serious D&D campaign where my drows are slavs because that greentext really made me laugh

>>52889823
I bet you're great fun at parties

>>52890123
Honestly that's not terrible, but I've had serious campaigns where the DM did shit like bringing in a bandit played by his friend that was a cut and paste of the "It's not delivery it's DiGiorno!" story
I personally would still prefer to avoid them entirely but some can pass if its fitting and not focused heavily on

>>52890157
Honestly it's just a side joke, they just met a drow in the beginning and I gave him a slav accent, but he litteraly disappeared from the game after that, so yeah not that bad

>>52884241
That trope is old as fuck.

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>Orcs are noble savages
>Gnomes are steampunk
>Nothing you do matters cause lol dark

>>52883020
>The empire is always evil, but might have the Imperial Propaganda filter from Helldivers/Movie Starship Troopers/etc on it.
>Conversely: The empire is a utopia and the only reason it has enemies is jealousy/ignorance/monsters are irredeemable.

The middle ground exists, and the things that don't fall into it somewhere are few and far between. I don't know why none of the people I've ever gamed with don't seem to get that.

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>>52884677
But what if several races including myth-based ones such as centaurs or minotaurs were engineered/spliced with those traits to serve as various slave-castes for an ancient magically advanced civilization?

>>52886034
They beat me to the punch, but yes, the game ended.

>>52889962
Not him, but yes. In fact the SBEG's rise to BBEG status took close to 40 years in character, far longer than it takes for us heroes to rise from dirt farmers to badass adventurers.

Also, he mimicked his dead boss and assumed his identity, even to the level of marrying the guy's widow, which was really creepy and weird.

>>52883020
Rubber forehead aliens.
It's a shitty trope created for low-budget movies. Don't bring it up ever again.

>>52891857
But... But Star Trek...

>>52891883
... blows

>>52891857
I like corny schlock so I love rubber forehead aliens.

>>52889306

I have a villain in my current game that the party thinks is being set up for this. He's currently trying to find a replacement for the non-renewable resource the entire society is reliant on, but is going full on "no matter the cost" eco-terrorist with it.
If the party doesn't just outright kill him, he's gonna rot in jail forever if given a fair trial and everyone will just use his research without acknowledging it was him who did the nasty legwork for it. Nobody is going to remember him as anything more than an unethical mass murderer who forsook his ethics to take the easy way. The villain is of course going to bitch and moan about how what he did was necessary but pretty much nobody will agree with him on it due to the huge body-count he's already racked up. He's pretty much the only person who thinks he's being noble doing the things he does.

Basically my goal is to enable the players to be as smug about bringing him down as possible.

>>52884557
Do something heroic then

>>52883020
literally every setting without black/white morality. Everything has to have "motive" these days, all the bbegs are "misunderstood" or a "fallen hero" rather than a conniving bastard like the rest of his lawful evil kind. And don't get me started on Orcs! In the old days you could round up a posse and go hunting Orcs and you'd get a reward. Now we have to deal with their Orcish degeneracy everywhere, half Orcs all over the place, Orcish "culture" on the radio and TV. Even Orcish Clerics for gods sake. Bat and eyelid and next you know there'll be an Orc as head of state you mark my words

>>52892777
Now is it just me or you're not really talking about orcs ?

>>52892777
Can you really call villains having motivations a cliché rather than, say, a fundamental requirement of writing anything?

>>52892875
It's a disgusting trend

>>52892830
>>52892875
>That was the joke

>>52892908
>implying I wasn't joking too
>inb4 "it was merely an act !"

>>52891857
Fuck off, it doesn't matter what the aliens look like, we know they're going to be basically humans and the meat of the story is in their weird gimmick like how they assume gender roles based on the phases of the moon and die if they tell a lie.

>>52892941
Yeah.
That's what's wrong with rubber forehead alien.
Thanks for proving my point.

>>52883579
A cliche is nothing more than a trope that has been forced into a story where it doesn't belong. Pretty much all of these cliches being posted were at one point tropes that were played out poorly so much that any reference to the trope only brings fear that the cliche is a red flag to worse storytelling/worldbuilding to come.
The trick to getting around this is by making a story where it makes sense for that trope to be present. As long as you don't make it a crutch for you to lean on all the time, you players will most likely enjoy it. It will only become cliche once you ride out the same flavor of story multiple times.
Take my GM I had for the last two games for instance. He has a pantheon that is based around emotions and ideas, with their true names tending to be the actual name of the emotion or idea, along with their mannerisms being similar to that of their creation. Very straightforward trope for a pantheon, no problem. The end boss was a few enemies followed up by a macguffin being used on the boss to weaken him, along with us blasting him with everything we had quickly while he was down. Clean and simple.
The problem arose when we started a new campaign in a DnD fantasy setting rather than one based on a more muted magical Earth. Here the setting had a pre-built pantheon, along with so many ways to run with things, yet he depended on the exact same setup, same situations, similar enough to be the same pantheon, and exact same end-boss/climax. It was use macguffin, stop the BBEG that is going to end the world as you know it, and then blast him. Cliches are tired tropes by definition, and repeated use when you do to something else is what kills them.

>>52885909
>>mfw the royal guard/watch/any standing military that's not the party get slaughtered en masse to show how badass the BBEG is
I do this but with the intention of it making the PCs look bad ass rather than trying to hype up the villain, because they managed to take down the guy that all these other elite fucks couldn't.

>>52888865
But why make it like that. I mean I don't really see how having multiple continents with different people makes a setting a clusterfuck. It just seems like an excuse to not include brown people/yellow people in the setting and call it good writing.

>>52883020
>Everything was prophesied.
>Everything your character did.
>You literally did nothing, it was fate all along.
>You literally had no agency in the whole thing, it could not have gone any other way.
>Because muh prophecy.

It's such horseshit.

>>52892931
It seems tongue in cheek enough. I believe him.

>>52889477
not
>Hopefully_The_DMPC_Shows_Up_Soon.jpg

>>52888865
The setting is like that because someone chose to make it that way. It's not harder to include black people in your setting than it is to include demonblooded people.

"the world is big and includes many types of people" requires less justification and explanation than "some humans can innately breathe fire"

>>52883794
>Scrapped Princess anime as a kid
>Scrapped Princess
>as a kid
How old are you again, mate? I find it hard to believe you are older than 20.

Also, don't shit on Scrapped Princess, it was fucking great.

>>52893995
Because the guy who made the setting wanted that. Fiction can follow whatever rules it wishes.

Fuck, the first Dragon Age had good standins for Muslims in the qnari, before they SJWit up in Inquisition.

>>52889306
As a corollary:
>Good guys cut through all the paid goons no problem, but hesitate to kill the guy giving the orders

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>Magic/reality is shaped by belief

>>52883857
>I do exactly this for handbook races
Fug

>>52884317
>sick of fantasy settings having earth cultures
>except mine, of course!
This writes itself.

>>52890123
>Viggo Mortensen
My sides, anon.

>>52883020
>a race/clan/culture is only availabe for women
>specially but not exclusively if that's the main trait

>>52897825
>magic banned for reasons and any use of magic will have the town guard running at you immediately

>>52892875
Villains need motivations. They don't need sympathethic motivations all the fucking time. People does horrible shit all the time and of course they got a motivation for it but that doesn't mean they're not mostly cunts with motivations as evil and shitty as their actions.

>Gods live off of worship, and if they don't get worshipped they weaken and die
I will never not hate this. Why can't gods just be the cosmic Big Guys?

>>52896589
You know what's easier than including black people? Not doing it. "The world is big and includes many types of people" doesn't mean this specific kind of people exists.

A good work is not achieved by adding more things, but removing what's useless and adds nothing.

>>52883397
But that's basically all the polititians. Which in medieval settings are nobility.

>>52898927
It's useful if you want religions to advance like irl but also Gods existing. It's not the only tool, but it's a good one and one that gives mortals some agency.

>>52898927
>Gods don't live off of worship but crave it since they're flawed egotistic assholes like Greek gods

Is this acceptable

>>52898927
Where is that used that isn't Terry Pratchett and New Gods of Mankind?

Not sure if this is a cliches but here goes
>character that lead the party through the first couple dungeons and moved them the right way, helpfully
>they're the BBEG

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>>52883416
Literally the only game that does it well.

>>52899296
>VII
>the beginning
that isn't how beginnings work

>>52892374
This.

>>52899226
DnD. Read Powers of Faerun and educate yourself.

>>52883397

I'm actually running a game that kinda began as a "It's saturday night , we're tree people and we're bored" . Now we're seven people playing and the campaign lasted three years to this day.

There is this character, who is basically your one hundred million years loli witch. (at this point , the party knows she's an really a really old witch and the daughter of an ancient fey, and maybe a god in her own right.) she used shady methods that did generally good stuff, was nice with the pcs, and an utter bitch to the bad guys.

My plan was that she would be the perfect example of " I wasn't really helping you, you were helping me all along , and now i'm the god of darkness instead of satan" trope, and that the pcs would stop her.

But I may have played the trope for too long and now I'm only half-sure pcs are getting suspicious of her, and that they like her so much they would put up with her being the actual god of darkness,( part because satan is a real cunt , for they work for her, and that they would think it couldn't be worse. And part because they really like her)

So I wonder if I should go along with the trope, or just make her into being a nice divinity who really is a victim of BBEG plans.

>>52889588
>their Inquisition is kind of justified, considering demons literally exist and walk amongst humans in that setting

It's been years, so forgive me if I'm wrong but I was pretty sure while reading it that most of the ills of the world that aren't directly caused by Behlilit(sp?) started with the church. They destroyed the pagan religion so the spirits got mad/forgotten/corrupted, and they helped to create the idea of evil because previous religion were more "life is about balance, take the good with the bad" and Catholicism was all about evil and righteousness?

>>52899717
Behelits were a constant, no matter what religion held the world. They are literally a key to open a door to darkest parts of the astral world.

The Holy See did build churches over significant pagan monuments which reduced the natural energy and drove away spirits, but that has nothing to do with the rise of beings like the Godhand. They've always been a force.

The Idea of Evil still isn't technically canon, but it's implied that it has always existed, feeding on the most negative aspects of the human experience.

>>52899088
I would say so. It honestly makes sense as well, since there's basically no reason in a lot of settings for the gods to just not blast cities apart whenever they want. Anyone that's so powerful but isn't willing to get off their ass and fix their own problems is probably an ass.

>>52899666
I'd personally say to play it straight. Let her kick you out, become the god of darkness, and not screw over the PCs. I say again, not screw over the PCs. Evil ain't stupid, good evil hired help is hard to find.
Let them decide if they give a fuck. If they want to fight her, there's your plot hook. If they want a pay raise now that their boss is a god, there's your plot hook.

>>52883857
It's like some people don't understand that the setting books are just suggestions.
I have a guy who keeps bugging me to bring in Driders.
>I want a pet Drider!
>I want to play as a Drider!
No and fuck no.
Driders are just edgy fetish centaurs.

>>52900010

I wouldn't screw the pcs . The witch herself isn't even that evil, she's more like an ancient fey or eldritch abomination that want to screw the gods and their system.

I was going to have her expose her plans to the pcs before things are set in stone anyway, so they can act on it as they chose.

>>52889306
The heroes have made friends with a lot of villainous NPCs (minor villains who didn't do anything particuarily bad) so I am hoping to play with this trope a little in the future.
They captured a powerful druid working under the BBEG who has done some awful stuff.
I am going to try to convince them that he was only doing what he was doing because the BBEG is holding his son hostage and that he is really on their side.
He doesn't have a son and he very much isn't.

>>52898927
I love that one.

>Every time I make a martial character I always just do the "oh he was/is a mercenary!"
How do I stop this

>>52899329
>"Ugh, my son wants Big Hero 6 for Christmas, but I can't find the first five!"

>>52889588
I thought demons weren't common in that setting until just recently. They definitely existed, but they didn't do anything too noticeable, and those that did were usually so powerful that they didn't leave witnesses.

>>52902166
Ex-gladiator slave that's trying to stop slavery. Reformed bandit trying to make amends for his ways. A random farmer that got drafted by his lord, fought a few battles, and decided not to go home just yet.

>>52894074
Honestly I love this one if it is played right. Nothing quite blasts the winds out of peoples sails like the moment they realize they have no free will within their game of pretend.

That or flipping it around so the bad guys have the prophecy saying they will win and so you have to fight against fate itself to not be defeated.

>>52883020
I hate post-modern irony.

Its not witty, its not insightful, its not meaningful in any way, its simply an observation of circumstance.

Real irony is poignant, it applies to the situation at hand in an unambiguous way. It isn't heavy handed or overly subtle, yet it is deliberate and observable.

Irony is a lost art, one which most post-modernists don't have the balls to engage in, something which can be observed openly and honestly, without any reservations or even hint of restraint in its portrayal.

>>52902355
if you have no agency, then whats to separate a prophecy from, say, a rather lucky guess? Or a simple statement of fact?

>>52902418
There is this idea that honest people aren't capable of observing or participating in irony and ironic humor.

I think the truth is, we just don't find it that funny. True irony isn't just when some starry eyed yokel learns a hard truth about the way the world works, its when a cynic learns just how egalitarian the concept of irony really is.

the saying, "The rain falls on the righteous and wicked alike," cuts both ways, my schadenfreude enjoying friend.

>>52902435
The central idea I tend to run with is that a prophecy is merely looking at the end result. Effectively that everyone desires will in at the end of it lead to exactly what it stated because everyone's decisions are already accounted for and added to the end result.

So there really isn't any separation in my mind between a statement of fact and that other then one is using magic of some sort to make the prediction objective.

>>52898871
yeah, but it doesn't have to be black and white for someone to be unambiguously loathsome.

>>52902524
Then you are rejecting the basic premise of a prophecy.

>>52887911
You would've liked my last necromancer, whose personality led the rest of the party to assume he was a CE serial killer.

He was just a socially awkward guy who missed his little sister.

>>52902524
The central tenet behind a prophecy in a fantasy storytelling medium is that the prophecy itself holds weight and can effect the outcome. Its not just a clever trick or a lucky guess. Its a rewriting of future history.

If a prophecy were a likely occurrence, it wouldn't really be a prophecy. A prophecy has to predict an unlikely outcome. Otherwise is just like, "No shit, Sherlock"

>>52883020
The other thing I don't like is vicarious sadism against innocent people. I hate Game of Thrones because it is a bunch of awful people doing awful things to each other. Every time somebody does something fucked up the audience draws in a hiss of breath and goes, "aaahhh yeaah, that the stuff."

They project their own feelings of helplessness and constant inactivity onto the people they come to think of as "weak" for not being ruthless enough to survive.

Right now, and I mean right now, there is some girl whos sticking her fingers up her twat masturbating to Ned Stark getting beheaded while watching his crying daughter look on.

Its like, "Seriously? You couldn't just find some poor guy and spank his balls with a hairbrush or something?"

>>52902627
It's a vague term in itself to be honest. It can mean anything from God is sending you the message on the future. To some anthropomorphic force making sure what you see will happen. All the way to just knowing the future well enough you can say exactly what will happen.

>>52902733
How about just General sadism against innocent and non-innocent people?

>>52902166
Talk to the GM and see what they've got or you. I've seen everything from a player who was the bodyguard/enforcer of our main quest given to a player who was just "a gentleman who knows how to use a rapier but often just gets really pissed and beats things to death with his fists" (he was technically a barbarian but fluffed differently).

>>52902166
>>52902349
Nice ones

I'd add "Loyal knight of far away kingdom on quest for their king", "Incognito spy", "City guard sent out into the boonies for being too good at their job", "Reformed cultist", et cetera

Mercenary is a good background for any character, but I agree that it's done to death.

>>52902759
>How about just General sadism against innocent and non-innocent people?

when its part of the plot, its fine. But it should make you recoil in horror and disgust, not give you an erection.

>>52902759
>It's a vague term in itself to be honest.
not really. it has a defined meaning in welsh and Irish literature.

the word "fuck" does not mean "to eat ice cream"

>>52902759
Awww yeah, Sauroman, slamm that filthy Gandolf up against a wall! Slam him! Harder!

>every other npc is a retired adventurer
>half of them were literally just given their powers if they're a caster
>whenever they do anything the DM never rolls

>>52903161
> it has a defined meaning in welsh and Irish literature.

It also has a defined term in christian, Greek, and Nordic mythology. Almost none of which matches another groups belief on what a prophecy is perfectly.

>>52903307
I'm not going to win this one am I?
Its okay, I won't call you a know-it-all if you don't call me one.

>>52903145
What ever you do anon don't google search Ryona. Or google the statistics of the number of people who get turned on at the thought of torture.

>>52903258
Yeah.. I do ONE veteran NPC per game (two once, but that was because they were a married couple of essentially Pai Meis, and I made sure that the PCs knew that they were legendary adventurers beforehand, with ballads to their name and such)

>>52903339
Not really arguing anything anon. Just saying there is quite some range in the ways most mythologies show a prophecy even if most modern day fiction show it only in one way.

So of course anon I would never be rude on an anonymous image board over something as dumb as the interpretation of something that doesn't actually exist out side of fantasy.

>>52903422
familiar with the term, "blowhard", sempai?

>>52903340
Still doesn't mean you should cater to their fetish

>>52902759
>It's a vague term in itself to be honest.
its really not

>>52903484
its not a statement of opinion. its a matter of fact. if you are ambiguous about the definition of what a prophecy is then it represents your lack of understanding.

If your just going to say shit to sound intelligent or gloss over your lack of understanding, you are going to get on my nerves.

Of course, me incessantly correcting your nonsense is probably just as irritating, if not more.

Which is why a gave you an out

>I'm not going to win this one am I?
>Its okay, I won't call you a know-it-all if you don't call me one.

Which you didn't take.

Then you accused me of being rude. On 4chan.

>So of course anon I would never be rude on an anonymous image board over something as dumb as the interpretation of something that doesn't actually exist out side of fantasy.

Which of course, would be the point in real life conversation where one of us would have excused ourselves because we were having a decent conversation and started slinging barbs across the table.

So you see, we have the full range of the autistic spectrum represented in both sides of this short conversation we've been having. Name your disorder, take your pick.

>>52893995
Because SJWs need to get the fuck off my shit.
>Be hispanic
>Be playing with whites
>Make low fantasy setting about not-Mongols vs not-Turks
>Everyone is ok except two fuckers who start whining about inclusion
>Muh niggers have to be 10% of the population
>The not-Turks are dark skinned.
>MUH AFRIKAN KHANGZ REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
After whining for 2 hours that africans were everywhere in the anciet world according to tumblr revisionist history I let this hamplanet whore play her fucking nigger and she made a not-mongol archer slutfu instead.
Out of the table I told my other players to purposedly misremember where we were meeting next when asked by the lardmoon or her beta orbiter and we started over.

These people don't give a shit, they're deconstructivist assholes who put their pride in virtue-signalling others. Fuck them and anyone who supports them. Storytellers should tell the story they want to tell, not whatever bullshit leftard society tries to force them to tell.

Compulsive bullshitters don't have a "game on/game off" switch. They can't really tell when they are lying or just filling in the blanks. Which really sucks, because they sometimes have explosive insight into the human condition. Its too bad nobody can really trust them.

>>52883857
this is why when I was permitted to use the lizardfolk I deliberately made them an isolated backwater and my character was an envoy sent out to ensure they didn't have enemies

>>52890325
because people tend to simplify things into right and wrong regardless of claims to be advocating grey, we are very all or nothing by our nature and easily show our biases

>>52902496
>>52902418
can you cite works exemplifying this?

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>>52897825
What's wrong with this?

>>52903615
How do you recognize a player as a compulsive bullshitter? I think I've been playing one online for a few years (one of the other players since he's a bullshitter too) but I'm actually having trouble deciding if he's actively lying about a stuff or is just dumb/forgetful and makes obnoxious assumptions.

>>52893995
Because it's A setting, not EVERY setting, bruv.

It's an active effort to include other tired efforts in rehashing real cultures in a setting. If they are there, there should be a reason for it.

And in this case, adding demons and lizardmen is a much more worthwhile effort adding because they are objectively cooler than NotAfricans.

>>52902627
My favorite take on prophesy - and the one I like to use in my games - is that its what the gods want to happen rather than something set in stone by fate.

So for example, the prophesy "the king's bastard will inherit his throne" doesn't mean that the universe will conspire to ensure the king's son takes the throne, it just means that one god or another has declared that to be their desired outcome to the current succession crisis and will probably throw a fit and curse the next king if he's someone besides the bastard the god threw their hat behind.

>>52888725
(You)

>>52887749
I did this once, except the nuisance character would kill steal and take credit for their missions when they did well, and act as a deus ex savior when they fucked up. I made sure saving them was extra humiliating. Gary Fucking Oak levels of hatred were generated.

>keikakudouri

The thing is the NPC was legitimately better than their entire party because of justified unlimited wealth, and his gear just outclassed them ten fold. So despite being an annoying buffoon, he could legitimately trivialize their accomplishments without any genuine effort or respect earned.

He was the end boss for the game. AND he was TG in alignment. But predictably, they were just so goddamned mad at him none of them gave a single fuck about morality by the end and they wanted to kill him at any cost. So they did. And the actual BBEG laughed as everything fell apart from there. They tried to stop the actual BBEG, but then I revealed how one players gf was fucking his best friend behind his back and- in character- the interparty strife ended the game.

What we didn't know was that the players gf was IRL cheating on him, which made this all uncanny and horrible and really fucked up the poor cuck. 10 years later I still run games for him, but none of the others.

>>52899226
it exists to an extent in elderscrolls

>>52903145
Why? Isn't power over others arousing? Are you a homosexualist?

>>52904808
I want power over others, not to mutilate them.

>>52903258
I have a character kind of like that but he is just a shopkeep with a non-intervention policy.
Essentially he is an imortal warrior who got bored of waiting for his BBEG to come back and decided to retire and open up various businesses around the world.
More of a joke character than anything but he would annilate the party if they fucked with him.

>>52885717
Holy shit, I went back and re-read his post. He totally is.

>>52883020
> Story

>>52883397
> swear to Pelor
misogynist.

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>>52884983
>pure innocent creatures like women

>>52899537
>This bad book about this generic setting contains this shitty cliche.
>You should read it.

>>52885909
>I remember a book series with elves that had given up their magic, so their main schtick was being obscenely good at common everyday shit.
Obsidian Tower, the first three were pretty decent.
The second trilogy was shiiiiiit

>>52899666
Don't discard yourself, satan. You're a good man!

>>52904754
Is that true? Can I get an example?

>>52883020
>racial monocultures
>Nature being good, tranquil and harmonious while not also being horrible, violent and chaotic
>Feudal titles (baron, dukes, kings, etc.) basically having no meaning or ranking

>>52883020

>sapient, supposedly free-willed species who are all good or evil by their very nature

>>52893995
A setting can only include so many races/peoples/cultures before it becomes either pointlessly large or a clusterfuck because 30 vastly different cultures live within 3 days walk of each other. Its up to the writer if they want to spend the 'space' in their setting on having a group of mildly differently-coloured humans, or something else. Many people choose the something else option because to them half-demon-angel-dragonkin are more interesting than, say, whites or asians.

>>52883950
>party mature enough to not murder anything that moves for xp
>"We actually don't allow evil alignments in our games"

Why? Seems like that's the sort of group that could handle having an evil character

>>52902733
>The other thing I don't like is vicarious sadism against innocent people.
Well, I can't really go out and murder innocent people for real, so I have to settle for the next best thing.

>>52883020
Dear god, I'M the traitor?
Or am i not the traitor now that i suspect myself more than i did?

>>52905833
I hate that shit with a passion.
Another thing that bothers me
>Most evil races are typically ugly or monstrous.

>>52899226
MTG, on Theros gods work this way

>>52898927
One of the goddesses in my setting has a laundry list of 'things wrong with the world' and this is at the top of her shit list. I mean, the gods don't become weaker, but the less they're worshiped/the fewer people advocate their ideologies the less they can do in the setting.
Her argument is
>So archmages and warlords are allowed to have freedom to do whatever they can get away with, but gods can't interfere unless asked because we're too powerful? It's my home too, I should be able to use whatever means I want to make it the way I want.

>>52898980
Or clergy, or burghers.

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>>52884983
>pure innocent creatures like women

>>52902166
Fanciful duelist travelling the countryside in search of some actual skill instead of showmanship.

>>52883480
This. Nothing quite like going dungeon crawling in what your players can obviously recognize is a ruined skyscraper but their characters just know as an ancient tower built by a long-forgotten empire.

>>52909118
>it took years of searching
>ancient tower after ancient tower, each filled with more monstrous beings than the last
>but you've finally found it
>your hands clench as you approach the pedestal, absentmindedly walking slow and carefully on the damaged floor of the once-great tower
>there your treasure sits
>the ruby-red weapon of a once-great warrior of old
>the four-eyed Ton, son of Mil.
>finally, you carefully take the weapon as your own
>the pristine enchanted metal of the exotic weapon feels like a perfect fit for your weathered hands
>you raise it above your head and give your new weapon a click
>as the two halves clench together, a small metal bracket tumbles to the floor
>at least, you have found the great stah'pler of legends!

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>>52889588
>And unlike irl, their Inquisition is kind of justified

>Implying moors and crypto-merchants didn't deserve what they got

Next you're gonna tell me the Crusades were unchecked aggression.

>>52887749
>Perverted old man character who harasses pretty much everyone but never faces any serious consequences for what he does.

The trope is real:
>Old schizophrenic man with PTSD from sexual abuse lives in my home town
>Can't afford to rent without assistance, has lived in housing commissions since the 70s
>Gets spat on by kids and businessmen alike
>Used to be a heroin addict, now addicted to scratch cards
>Always asking whoever he comes across for a dollar or a light
>Must be approaching 400 public misdemeanours by now, all of them dropped because the local court takes pity on him
>Speaks his mind when in the presence of young women he finds attractive most of his misdemeanours are sexual harassment
>Is no real threat, but concerned parents tell their kids that he's a drug addict who will shake them down for money if he corners them

I once saw him run over to a car because a bird flew into it and cracked the windshield. He just wanted to make sure the people inside were okay.

>>52905859
That kind of cultural mish-mash makes for great environments though. Think of places like ancient Rome, NYC, Cairo, Istanbul, North India, Golden Age Baghdad, or Hong Kong.

If done well that kind of Balkanization can pay off very well.

No one is obligated to do it but there are few convincing reasons to strictly prohibit it.

>>52911696
I fucking love cultural mixing points, and I endeavor for most of my settings to look like a goddamn star wars cantina.
Because the game I want to play involves eating wriggling bugs on a stick from a local merchant and being paid in three seperate local currencies that are variously cursed, sticky, heavy, or have some other strange trait to them. It involves gladiatorial combat against creatures so strange I am not sure I killed it when I kill it. It involves all the grease and scum of a confluence of the criminals and businessmen of 50 countries.

>>52889588
To be fair, back at the height of the Inquisition people still thought demons were real because they didn't know any better

>>52897825
Fuck you I like that one

>villains with retardly complex plans.

>>52883397
>we have to rescue a female character, she's secretly using us to advance her own power for some sinister purpose.
Any BBEG who's plan involves putting themselves at the mercy and rescue of the PCs is utter shit.

I have seen this done well, but never as an intended plan.
When the Green Goblin tried to murder Oscorp's competition's CEO, Spider-Man saved him, and he immediately acted like a frightened but grateful old man instead of the enraged, super-evil son of a bitch he was.
As I recall, he strung Spider-Man along for a while until he wised up.

>>52883020
Sympathetic villains, especially in games.

Most of the time, these villains have no charisma and fail at the sympathetic part. Almost all of them follow a boneheaded 'the ends justify the means' or an extreme overreaction to a tragic backstory.

Fuck 'good' motivations, gimme a complete bastard that you love to hate and makes the player/reader/watcher feel good when they finally get their comeuppance.

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>get to know NPC for a while
>they're murdered horrifically immediately when you start to care about what happens to them
>there was actually nothing that you could do about it

It doesn't t shock me if you keep doing it, you know.

>>52911969
You should play Fallen London and/or Sunless Sea if you aren't already

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>the setting has mass-produced gigantic flying ships, propelled by some kind of internal combustion engine that produces torque, using a magical fuel but otherwise analogous to real-world technology
>somehow it never occurs to anyone to build a smaller version of this engine for any other purpose, every land vehicle has to be animal-powered
>WELL ACTUALLY if you read the manga it explains the ground is covered in magical fog made of microscopic demons that eat metal, but ONLY the metal used in vehicle engines, not any of the characters' metal weapons or armor, not any intricate clockwork contraptions, just vehicle engines because shut up it's magic

>>52883020
>if we kill the evil super bad guy murderer who has committed countless atrocities we will be just as bad as him

>romance shit just for the sake of romance shit

>bad guy is a mean dick just to hammer home how evil he is and how much you should hate him

>>52883579
>Maybe I'm just good with cliches.
Or maybe they're just too polite to say anything about it :^)

>>52889823
>The entire town is a mimic.
fuck you, mimic town did nothing wrong

>>52910695
wait the bird cracked the windshield or the hobo did?

>>52913583
Way ahead of you.