What is the singlemost Mary Sue trait? [Spoiler]Martial Supremacy?[/Spoiler]

Being the rape victim everyone loves.

>>52871193
Being half demonic/fae/angelic, hands down.
How'd you fuck this up OP?

Fucking up spoilers.

>>52871246
>>52871249
I am bad at the 4chan.

>>52871193
any form of "beauty as a curse" or by extension "[positive trait] as a flaw"

>>52871296
me too, thanks

>>52871193
>What is the singlemost Mary Sue trait?

Look at the original Mary Sue from Star Trek and the greatest Mary Sues in fiction, and you'll notice a singular trend.

Every single Mary Sue is universally loved by everyone they meet, and the only people who don't like Mary Sues are either villains or hated by other people for not loving Mary Sue.

That is the Mary Sue.

>>52871193
Ladyknight

>>52871221
>Being the rape victim everyone loves.
What if everyone loves to rape her?

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I'm gonna go with "tragically orphaned from excessively talented and adoring parents."

>>52871753
This.
It's why when people talk about Kvothe in Name of the Wind, I tell them how no matter how mary sue people say he is, he is always fucked over at the end, and almost always because he did it to himself.
He is a born loser, not a mary sue, but people can't see that because they obsess over what he can do, not how he is responsible for his own downfall.
Mostly because the average fa/tg/uy can't comprehend a character that is his own worst enemy, being too obsessed with scrappy underdogs compared to genuinely talented protagonists.

>>52871193

Hidden power

>>52871956
I didn't even refresh, and you not only beat me to it, but just proved me right.

>>52871980
Okay, granted I'm using a more generalized and technically inaccurate definition of Mary Sue, but you have to admit they have a shitload of cliches in common.

>>52872024
The only thing they have in common is being naturally talented at a number of things.
According to that, your classic Renaissance Man is a mary sue, being expected to be skilled at many arts.
Kvothe is great at a handful of things: being charismatic, magic, forging, music, and sex, ie he is literally a D&D bard in a non-D&D setting.
He was taught martial arts, and considered a fair student at it's most generous, but he still spent his time being beat up by a 9 year old girl.
The moment he reveals his heritage, he is automatically on everyone's shitlist, he spent much of his life a poor schmuck, and it's continually brought up, everyone that does like him either dies or turns on him, absolutely every time he's about to make it above his station as not-gypsy scum, he is cockblocked, and I think with the exception of a single instance, it was always his own damn fault.
He could be a prodigy at magic, but he is simply too stubborn and convinced his way is best to actually be excellent at it, and his egomania is turned at him repeatedly and he never learns from the experience. Further, the entire series is him self-narrating his own life, and he openly admits to lying to tell a better story, to the point where he loses everything he is skilled at due to having his Name stripped from him.
Yes, he is a "mary sue", for all the reasons I stated above.
I still try to understand why /tg/ hates any protag that is not a brooding warrior or a scrappy underdog that grets by with heart, like in their japanese animes.

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>>52871968
Bonus points if that hidden power is something absolutely bullshit and broken like "Accelerated Skill Progress."

>>52871193
If the story cannot function without his or her presence.

>>52871753
Also this.

>>52871753
/thread

>>52871802
When did ladyknights (assuming they're not much more than female knights) become a meme?

I don't think being a female knight inherently makes you a Mary Sue. I had a swearing female Paladin with an alcohol addiction and a penchant for getting into drinking contests, which I'd say is pretty far away from Mary Sue territory.

>>52871753
>>52873441
I think this hit the nail on the head pretty well. I actually think heterochromia can be an interesting physical quirk if done right, but it's associated with Mary sues so much that I never have it in my games

>>52873683
Sounds like a sue to me

>>52873765
And you base this on...

>>52873683
It's a realism thing. A woman would struggle physically if they are in the IRL counterpart of pure martial classes. This applies to most playable races due to their physiology being similar to humans.

Like Monk. IRL Martial arts are divided by weight class and gender because there's no way a 130 pound woman can compete with a 200 pound male of the same skill. What makes people think that said 130 pound female fighter would be able to do basically any damage against an orc or other medium-large to large sized races outside of game mechanics and magic?

I don't really have much against female characters being martial, but it's game mechanics>realism. I'm fine with females being spellblades, paladins, gishes, etc, because it's magic enhancing a physical fighter, and magic basically breaks all the rules and makes it far more realistic.

>>52873835
>A woman would struggle physically if they are in the IRL counterpart of pure martial classes
Not really. You know there actually were female soldiers of varying stripes throughout history, yeah? The difficulty curve is higher without testosterone but if the question is "can they effectively wield the things considered traditional martial weapons", the answer is "yes".

Bear in mind, for most of the women who failed Ranger training, it wasn't the physical portion, it was the stuff related to front-line infantry training, since they hadn't gotten it. And for the women who've passed Ranger training, that was the area where they struggled.

I get why you probably wouldn't see women composing a particularly large chunk of the army, but PCs (and any kind of MC, for that matter) are made of the edge cases. That's why they're prominent characters in the first place. You hear the story of Edmund, the daring rebel who stood up to the tyrannical dictator who'd conquered his town, not Frederick, the guy who stayed behind in the conquered town and just sorta got used to it. So why is it any stranger for a female PC (or significant NPC) to be one of the people who pushed through the difficulty curve?

>>52873835
> there's no way a 130 pound woman can compete with a 200 pound male of the same skill
>of the same skill

That's what you're getting hung up about.
As a male fencer, I fence against women frequently, and while I have the physical ability to overwhelm some of them who are more skilled than I am, many are simply so much better in terms of skill that I'm unable to really do anything.

In D&D, levels are not strictly skill, but represent more of the overall power of the character, and function as a combination of skill and ability. At equal levels, a 200 lb male fighter may be stronger in a purely physical sense, but the 130 lb female has the skill necessary to compensate and apply her strength more effectively. There is not only enough abstraction to allow this flexibility, but the characters even at 1st level are expected to be beyond the abilities of ordinary people, making the question of ultimate realism a moot point.

Also, as to whether a 130lb woman can do basically any damage to an orc or other medium-large to large size, the answer is flatly yes.

>>52873765
I'm defining Mary Sue as a highly idealized character without any major flaws who everyone loves, usually written as a self insert or some kind of wish fulfillment, so I don't see how it applies.

>>52871193
Being universally loved and trusted by everyone but the antagonist(s), even by people who've known the Sue for less than 30 seconds. Bonus points for having all the hot boys/girls gunning for a piece of that sweet poon/D.

>>52874035
I'm aware that there's exceptions to the rule. And I'm not opposed to women in combat positions, I just think it heavily pushes the Marry Sue card, specifically because it's a job that males do better 99.95% of the time, historically speaking.

And yes, player characters are the cream of the crop, which deminishes my dislike a bit, because it can be justified as that. Being so skilled talented that it works. It can make sense in universe, but that creates the problem of the character being abnormally good at things, which brings up the Marry Sue argument again.

>>52874169
I specifically used 'of the same skill level', because it represents a benchmark.

Once you have character's who are abnormally above a set skill benchmark, I think it starts creating a marry sue. I think basically all PCs are Marry Sues to some extent, but pure martial class females really push it.

In your case, the 130 pound female is exponentially more skilled than the 200 pound male, despite them having the same combat statistics. The fact that the female character is so skilled and advanced is what creates the problem. You can easily justify combat stats in game, but with female martial classes, you start reaching into questionable territory, especially.

The in universe skill level of a female fighter has to be so much higher than a male's to justify their power level that I think it starts getting iffy.

Heterochromia, duh.

>>52871193
Being "unconventionally" attractive, which basically means that every male character is in love with her but she simply doesn't know it because she's too modest.

>>52871221
This too. Reminds me of the Mary Sue protagonist of that feminist board game who lived in some strawman rural Christian village, got raped like five times before graduating from high school, spiraled into a network of crime and drug abuse and STILL managed to graduate *two years early* as a *valedictorian* no less.

>>52871802
Bitch, don't make me punch you in your roast beef vagina.

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>>52872280
please no. I try so hard to tolerate that show, I have to actively ignore what is perhaps the absolute worst mutator on the old "determination" chestnut

>>52874395
Look, one of the first things you learn about self-defense as a girl is how to use your opponent's weight and strength against him. That's day-one stuff. It's only a slight stretch to say you're specifically learning how to fight men.

>the problem of the character being abnormally good at things, which brings up the Marry Sue argument again.
Being abnormally good at things does not a Mary Sue make, in and of itself. Many, many, many movies start out with a protagonist who's "the best" at what they do. Riddick is the best at beating people up, Will Smith from Independence Day is the best pilot, Link from Matrix Reloaded Revolutions ignore the Neo parts and it's not a bad movie is the best at video games. The issue is more about how, once they're the best at something, how they're challenged.

>You can easily justify combat stats in game
Can you, though?
"I learned how to wear light armor effectively, so now I'm better at picking locks. I learned how to use armor because we defeated a tough monster."

I appreciate that you're not the "WIMMIN CAN'T MARSHULL" type, though, so I'll at least acknowledge that.

>>52873741
Heterochromia at Char Creation is kind of tainted, but I've given characters that I've DM'ed for after char creation if they do something Spooky and supernatural, Like a Warlock pact, or a fucked up magical experiment.
Only if they were okay with it though.
Then again, my players and I are of the opinion that high-level characters should be fucking freaks of nature,

>>52871193
Her pov is written in first person.

>>52874832
>I have not read a book since high school.
FTFY

>>52873741
I once made a heterochromic villain in a game, but it wasn't natural. She'd tare the eyes out of people if she thought they had pretty eyes and replace one of her own eyes with it.

>>52871193
How is being good in a fight a Mary Sue trait?

>>52874857
All that fanfiction you read doesn't count son.

>>52874955
Its not 'being good in a fight' its 'My characters martial prowess is unmatched! They are the greatest swordsmen in all the realms!'

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>>52872187
Thank you for not being a retard, anon.

>>52874695
>weight and strength against them
Yeah, that's absolutly a thing. And then you look at Judo, which is that turned into a dedicated martial art, and again, men are on top.

>being good at things doesnt make a marry sue
Agreed. However being too good at things starts. My argument and personal question is 'are female pure martials too good at their skillset to maintain a balanced character'. Because that's what it comes down to, and the answer is subjective.

To maintain game stat balance, the ingame justification is that the woman is just really really really fucking good. But then a man who is more or less average in comparison has the exact same combat stats. Dispite them having the same 'stats', the female is far far more skilled, fighting against natural disadvantages and still thriving in combat just the same as the male.

>game mechanics are game mechanics
Basically. I think an ideal system puts realism into its character statistics, having the stats be represented by player skills and attributes. But of course game mechanics will be what they are, a mechanical system for players to reliably use.

I'm also super okay with races with different physiology and sizes being martial females. It's just in the human-like camp that I get a bit finicky, simply because in universe the character has to be so much more skilled than their male counterpart to justify their stats. And again, I'm fine with paladins, spellblades, and other magic/martial classes being female.

Like take a Goliath, they're 7 foot tall hulks basically, a female goliath isn't gonna run into many problems considering they're more physically adept than a human male.

>>52873741
>>52871193
>>52874519
I think the reason heterochromia is so strongly associated with Mary Sues (aside from coincidence, in that Mary Sue characters keep having heterochromia) is that it serves essentially no purpose in making a character more interesting.

Born with no left arm below the elbow? That could be interesting.

Missing a couple teeth? There's probably a story there.

Your eyes are different colors? That's definitely rare, but it doesn't do much to define who you are as a person. It's "special" in the shallowest sense, and Sues tend to be loaded with those kinds of "special for the sake of specialness" traits.

>>52875014
As a rule of thumb I've learned to stop watching a show (usually an anime) as soon as an evil character says "I-impossible!" in regards to the protagonist's abilities.

>>52871753
>Apply this to all the shitty chinese webnovels I've been reading
>This applies to literally every main character in almost every single one of them
Oh man I knew they were bad but I couldn't pinpoint why other than eternal powerlevel wank and writing.

>>52875080
>an evil character says "I-impossible!" in regards to the protagonist's abilities
I love that trope though. Also that's not per se an indicator of the character being a Mary Sue, it can also be some kind of new technique that the antagonist didn't know about, or some kind of plan that turns out in his favor. It's way too broad to be a Mary Sue flag.

>>52875241
It's not a perfect system, but from my experience the times it's been right considerably outweigh the times it's been wrong.

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>But unlike the rest of his people his PLOT DEVICE was tainted by DARKNESS and he was corrupted from within! Now a struggle of GOOD VS EVIL takes place WITHIN HIS HEART. He BROODS ENDLESSLY and all the girls want his BIG DARKNESS DICK but he is too busy mourning his DEAD GIRLFRIEND who was killed by his TRAITOR FAMILY MEMBER

>>52875367
Missing out on JoJo outweigh all the good that came and will come from your system

>>52875542
If I'm watching shonen/seinen then it's already out of the ordinary for me. And considering I don't watch much anime to start...

>>52875437
Yeah, the "internal good vs bad" struggle is a good Gary Stu indicator.

>>52875577
Is there any good anime that is neither Shonen nor Seinen though?

>>52875617
If you can believe it, plenty!

>>52874774
It can make for an interesting story. I've got an older brother who got a head injury on the job site, his eye went from blue to dark brown. Been that way for a few years now.

>>52872280
accelerated skill progress is not a bad trope, it's just not used as in "this cherecter is fucking good at this shit, he learns much faster than other" and is used in the "when i try something i become a master of it". Geb from the wizard of earth sea was very good at magic, he was not a merry sue

>>52871961
>Name of the Wind
that book ist still utter tripe though

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>>52875367
You missed the glory that was Mob Psycho then

It's like One Punch Man but as a psychological coming-of-age story, with the protagonist being a psychic middle schooler instead of a superhero

I would link a fight but pretty much all of them have major spoilers

>>52875598
can be with poor execution. Good execution has the character lynched for his evil choices. 'Good vs Evil' characters require exelent execution otherwise they're either totally incomplete or total marry sues.

>trying to play a conflicted oathbreaker paladin who abandoned the light in an attempt to save more innocents from the forces of evil
>DM doesn't ever have NPCs respond negatively to me raising the dead and doing morally dubious stuff
>all moral choices are super black and white
>my character just basically a death knight that acts like a paladin cause there's never any real RP opportunities to really go into the whole 'evil for the sake of the greater good' thing
>never actually confronted by anyone over my use of necromancy
>never any consequences for my actions
It's not my fault my character is a Marry Sue, he just literally never gets called out on bullshit he should get called out on.

>>52872187
we get it you love your precious Kvothe, you can stop defending your shitty book now

>>52875833
You're taking the internal good-vs-evils struggle in a more metaphorical sense, which can be done well. I meant it in a more literal sense, like that "I have two sides, nicest guy you'll ever meet and TWISTED FUCKING PSYCHOPATH" meme. Doing something like that in fiction (like actually having an 'evil side' that gives you evil powers) is kind of a Gary Stu trait. Kind of like how in Bleach Ichigo eventually became a half shinigami half arrancar half quincy half dragon half ogre half demon.

>>52875815
Actually, just on the off chance that I may make someone watch it, here is one of the best scenes. Again, don't watch if you don't want to be spoiled

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDbhRw99SEU

>>52873835
>physical fitnes meme
You do know that for the most part skill is much more important than phisical strenght right? Shure, at the same skill level str>skill, but i have had my ass hended to me by women who are 1/2 of my wieght and as far as pure str are weeker. Because they were better at said martial art than i was and could use that agients me

>>52871193

Being the obvious self instert, but way better than the original, more than the other self insterts because we all do it to a degree, but a degree only.

>>52875906
oh sure, yeah, that shit tends to get stupid. I feel it can be done right, look at Lycanthropy, but having a sentient split personality that's just 'XD look at me I have tons of powers and don't forget I'm SUUUUUPER evil guys' gets a bit tedious.

>>52875979
My whole point was that if a 200 pound human male and a 130 pound human female had the exact same skillset, the male would win out 100% of the time, and in order for the combat stats to balance out, the female needs to be a ton more skilled than the male to hold her own.

I'm using a formula of physical+skill=result in combat. If physical is say 4 on the male, and that's pretty standard for a male, and he has 4 in skill, which is standard for a human, his ultimate combat result is 4+4=8. 8 is his result in combat.

A female using the same metric, would be 2 physical, and 4 skill, putting them at 6. So to bring the female up to 8, which is the male standard, you need to either pull their physical or skill up 2 points, putting them far above average at either physical or skill for a standard member of their race's sex.

So by thinking in this way, the female is, in comparision to others of their race/sex, far above average compared to a male if the two of them have the same exact stats.

i'm wasnt arguing that it's not possible or reasonable for a female fighter, i'm saying that it stats pushing on Marry Sue teritory when you have characters that are so far above the standard of their race/sex. But, I also think that 90% of PCs are Marry Sues, so there's nothing really wrong with it.

>>52875080
What if I just like the aesthetics of heterochromia?

>>52876156
>My whole point was that if a 200 pound human male and a 130 pound human female had the exact same skillset, the male would win out 100% of the time
Once you bring weapons into the question this completely breaks down, though. The girl would only need a lucky hit to possibly cripple the larger male for life or at the very least send him to the hospital for a couple weeks. The male would still be at advantage, but it would be nowhere as unilateral as on a regulated martial arts fight.

>>52876156
I think you are slightly oversimplifying it. You aren't taking into account different martial arts, styles of fighting etc. A female who has taken some self-defense classes will probably take out a avenge male without being some black belt. I have trained three different martial arts (wing-tsu, capuiera and judo) and i have seen many times women with not much more skills take out guys who were a lot stronger than them. From my experience, strength only comes into play when the skill levels are very similar, or when we are talking about very high leveled fights

>>52876156
There might be other factors to consider, such as weapons, status conditions, environment, etc. A resourceful, wily, or prepared fighter has a substantial edge over the other who isn't.

>>52876285
He's talking about the same skill level

>>52876340
yes, but the forumla later on is a bit bonkers, i allrady said that he is right as far as same skill level fights go

>>52875750
He was also not a particularly good character.

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>>52871753
We have a winner. Good show chaps.

>>52876413
ech, i liked him

>>52871413
>any form of "beauty as a curse" or by extension "[positive trait] as a flaw"

Rage pls

>>52874603
>This too. Reminds me of the Mary Sue protagonist of that feminist board game who lived in some strawman rural Christian village, got raped like five times before graduating from high school, spiraled into a network of crime and drug abuse and STILL managed to graduate *two years early* as a *valedictorian* no less.


What?

>>52871193
Marital Supremancy

>>52871296
ctrl+s is your friend

>>52871193

Being the protagonist.

>>52871296
If you capitalize spoilers they break.

>>52876285
>>52876285
>>52876281
I'm not arguing that an odd strike won't connect. I'm going for a broad system thats aplicable in most scenarios.

Physical+skill+stratagy is what determines fights on a basic level. There are ways a woman can win a fight, but on a physical level, the female brain isnt suited for rapid tactical though, and the body isnt designed for athleticism. So two of the three are at a natural disadvantage over a male.

Not saying it cant be overcome, but a female fighter has to be farther above average than a male.

If a man loses a fight to a women, it's because he's inferior at one or more attributes. This can be because the woman is highly skilled/strong/tactical or because the male is bad at athletics/skill/tactics.

In cases irl, a lot of men are afraid to go all out on a woman as well, which undermines my formula to some extent, as the male handicaps himself. You can consider it valid as a contributor or dismiss it, depending on your opinions on the mater.

My entire point is that the male body and mind is better suited for combat than the female mind. Take an averagemale and female, put them under the same physical, tactical, and skills training, and 95% of the time the male will simply be better.

Now differernt training methods, weapons, fighting styles, etc are factors, but a male put through that same training will usually be strictly superior.

>>52871961
>Mostly because the average fa/tg/uy can't comprehend a character that is his own worst enemy, being too...
much that very exact thing. And if they could recognize it, they wouldn't be anymore, their self-awareness would make it eventually sort itself out.

>>52874395
If you can't be bigger and stronger, you compensate by adjusting your fighting style to capitalize on what you do have more of.

So what are women better at combat-wise than men?
I know for starters they're better multitaskers.

>>52876848
>Not saying it cant be overcome, but a female fighter has to be farther above average than a male.

>Vou can play a male or female character without gaining any special benefits or hindrances. Think about how your character does or does not conform to the broader culture's expectations of sex, gender, and sexual behavior. For example, a male drow cleric defies the traditional gender divisions of drow society, which could be a reason for your character to leave that society and come to the surface

And honestly anyone who brings this sort of thing up on the table is most likely That Guy

>>52871961
Go away, Rothfuss.

Also, fuck yourself. Everybody loves Kvothe wherever he goes, unless they're bad guys.

>>52873741
>I actually think heterochromia can be an interesting physical quirk if done right

How? Explain to me how this pointless trait could ever be interesting in any way.

>>52874774
See, I'll give you that one, if and only if the eye that changes stops looking human entirely. Freaks should be freaks, not people with minor cosmetic defects.

>>52876934
I mean i'm just discussing it for the sake of it. I literally dont care if someone plays a 5'1 120 female human fighter with 20 strength. I'm just breaking it down to realistic components for the sake of it.

>>52875979
>but i have had my ass hended to me by women who are 1/2 of my wieght and as far as pure str are weeker.

t. five foot something manlet. If you're as good at fighting as you are at spelling, I understand why you get your ass kicked by girls.

I've beaten up men who were far better than me at fighting, just by brute strength.

>>52876285
>wing-tsu, capuiera and judo
>literally what, a form of dance, and competitive hugging

Wow, truly the most practical and applicable martial arts.

Most martial arts are just dressed up sports, and most people who practise them are no better at real fighting than soccer or volleyball players.

>>52875080
>Your eyes are different colors? That's definitely rare, but it doesn't do much to define who you are as a person. It's "special" in the shallowest sense, and Sues tend to be loaded with those kinds of "special for the sake of specialness" traits.

Which is a great explanation of exactly why I have the rule >>52876968 . One of your eyes is reptilian and the sclera glows a bright saffron in the dark? There is most definitely a story behind that. And people you meet are gonna have an impulse reaction to it too, so it most definitely has an impact on the story. A shopkeep thinks you're bad luck and refuses to do business. A cult thinks you're their patron demon incarnate. You get stopped at security checkpoints a lot.

Anything that's never gonna be relevant is frankly a trait that's wasting space on your character sheet.

>>52871193
White hair. Hands down. Such a lazy trait to just slap on anyone to make them seem importo.

>>52877098
Depends on who's teaching, and what.
For instance, having experienced both, Olympic Tae Kwon Do and practicing an actual style both train and sparr very differently. Techniques have to change quite a bit when you're striking for solidly-landing, fight-ending debilitating injury rather than got-past-their-guard-hand points.

>>52877265
>Depends on who's teaching, and what.
Well, there's no shortage of McDojo's nowadays. Nothing more annoying than some scrawny bitch who got a black belt from a McDojo and thinks she can kick your ass. 'Martal' arts nowadays are entirely recreational unless you're in tournaments (and even then you might find yourself limited by tournament rules when you find yourself in a real life shitty situation. The only martial arts training that really prepares you for that is probably military combat training, because that's actually intended to hurt or kill others).

>>52877265
Yes, some martial arts are absolutely practical and applicable in a real* fight, and I have had my ass duly kicked by a few of them.

Most, however, are just sports. I'm not a fighter myself, which is how I know anyone who loses to me sucks.

*Real as in, you're seriously trying to cause the other guy pain and humiliation, while still avoiding murder charges or serious injury. Strictly speaking, a weapon is obviously the best choice if it's life or death.

>>52876964
Some eye injuries can cause heterochromia but only as much as changing the original color lighter or darker. I may be remembering incorrectly.

>>52877586
No, that's entirely correct.
It's the reason David Bowie had heterochromia, and why one of his eyes was constantly dilated.

>>52871193

I want to FUCK that Elf!

>>52871816

Then she's just an elf

>>52877544
Where I'm from, if you are affiliated with a martial art club, you're allowed one less level for legitimate defense in the eyes of the law

Example: normally, if someone attacks you with a blade, you can defend yourself with a blade too. But, if you are affiliated with a martial art dojo, you're only allowed to defend yourself bare-handed.
(The scale is nothing<bare-handed<blunt weapon<blade<firearm)

>>52877730
>If you're affiliated with a martial arts club and someone attacks you with a firearm, you're only allowed to defend yourself with a blade
Nothin personnel, kid!

>>52877825
To be fair, most people don't have access to guns here, beside actual criminals.

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>>52877730
That's dumb. I believe that criminals should expect the probability of being injured, maimed, and if they're doing something really bad, killed.

I mean as long as you aren't abducting and torturing or raping the assailant. No reason to be a monster about it, but if someone care so much about not getting a boo-boo, well they should've thought of not committing a deliberate violent crime.

>>52876604
bellum maga, it's a ttrpg that whitewolf published

>>52877898
I have the same law in my home country, it's partly dumb, partly not. If there was credible threat, most courts will chouse to ignore said law, but we had a bunch of cases when some kid got into a fight with someone, got scared and pulled a bat/knife on the guy to scear him of and proseded to get killed because the other guy knew what they were doing and had no intention of ending it.

>>52877730
>Where I'm from, if you are affiliated with a martial art club, you're allowed one less level for legitimate defense in the eyes of the law

I don't think it's that strict here, but they do hold it against you in court if you have any kind of advantage on your attacker, even shit like martial arts training. It's part of the reason I'm never going to take martial arts lessons - not only is it largely worthless, but it could actively hurt me if I get into a fight.

>>52877898
As a gun-hating European pinko, I agree. If you attack someone else or steal their shit, you have no have no right to complain if you get killed in the process.

>>52877265
For instance, applying point sparring rules to a real fight, you'd be instead shooting for quickest disqualification possible, with as low a point total on both sides as possible at moment of disqualification.

Jump kicks? spin kicks? Jump spin kicks? Leaving one leg up and just round kicking the entire match while you balance on one foot? 5 full-whiff punches? Heck no.
Excessive force? Contact strike to the head? Encouraged.
Strikes below the below the belt other than the shin? Spin backfist to the temple? Kneeing, especially to the face? Tripping, grabbing, throwing, or takedowns? If he makes a big enough blunder you can work them in.

>>52877972
Having a knife pulled on you sounds like a pretty good reason to kill the guy with the knife.

>>52871193
Half-anything

>>52878024
He may have no intention of actually using it

>>52877901

When the second link on google is titled
>FATAL and friends

Here we go

>>52878024
From what i read, a lot of the times the knife was pulled in a (very stupid) defensive manner, things were gettiing rough, one guy wants out, so he pulls a knife and gouse "just walk away", next thing he knows, he has a few inches of stell sticking out of his chest

>>52877901
Is it anything like the other storyteller system stuff like WoD or Exalted? Because those are basically systems intentionally dedicated to playing Sues, be they of perfect or edgelord kind.

>>52878039
Sucks for him. If anything, running around posturing with it like it's a fucking toy is worse.

>>52878137
Sounds like a well deserved fate to me.

>>52877644
Lol you want to fuck a drawing. How sad.

>>52874603
all fat girls are tough on the internet

>>52876156
>My whole point was that if a 200 pound human male and a 130 pound human female had the exact same skillset, the male would win out 100% of the time

Is that a problem that needs fixing though? Just accept that in the setting 99% of fighters are men, and the 1% of women who do it as well, are essentially the cream of the crop and don't need to be competing against the 1% of men, but are still good enough for campaign purposes.

>>52877865
>To be fair, most people don't have access to guns here, beside actual criminals.
That seems a bit backwards, tbqh.

>>52878628
>That seems a bit backwards, tbqh.
Not really. In societies where guns are rare, any criminals that get hold of them tend to be part of organized crime, and mostly just use them to kill one another.

We don't get many desperate crackheads with guns.

>>52878737
I'm European (Dutch actually) and you're full of shit. Just watch any crime report show and you'll see many gun-related crimes are robberies or burglary. Not exactly mobster business, more the kind of petty crime two or three Moroccans who got their hands on a gun could commit. Mafiosi don't concern themselves with gasstation cash registers that have a thousand euros in it at best.

>>52871193
Perceived Flawlessness.

You'll often hear that Mary Sues don't have flaws, but that's simply untrue. Mary Sues often have horrible flaws. Many are arrogant, judgmental, or display a stunning lack of basic human empathy.

The difference between a regular character and a Mary Sue, the most important difference, is that any flaws the character has are either ignored or not perceived as such by the author. The people she tortures are all "bad" people that deserve it. If she's a dick the author just thinks she's "snarky." She doesn't make any mistakes, because the author thinks that her way is the very best way of doing things. This is the root of the Mary Sue. It is not some list of traits you can assign points values too, and if the character has trait A, B, and Z they're a Sue. It doesn't come from the character. It comes from them and their actions having the full endorsement of the author behind them, 100% of the time.

>>52879049
Good points. Reminds me of that part in Twillight where FaggotMcVampire tells Bella not to go look for him, but he still protects her because... reasons. And she attempts suicide just so he can come back and rescue her. That's not romantic, that's straight up manipulative and potentially putting both of them in danger.

Though now that I think about it, I wonder if this would make Christian Grey a Gary Stu. He's a borderline rapist and abuser but he's rich and handsome so the writer depicts it as romantic and kinky.

>>52873835
>It's a realism thing.
Dragons. Wizards
Magic
Mind flayers
You not being a faggot

The entire game is a fantasy. Get off your huge fucking -4 str bullshit. If it cools your autism assume that women and men really are physically the same in this fantasy realm and extrapolate how that might affect society and human biology.

>>52879110
No because that's just how women think, if anything it makes the book realistic

>>52879214
>that's just how women think
It definitely is not.

>>52879189
note where I'm only bitching about pure martial characters that have no affiliation with magic.

The second magic alters the physical body, IE paladins gaining divine might, warlocks being infused with eldritch power, monks with ki/chi/whatever, spellblades lighting their swords on fire or turning their flesh to stone, etc, that shit is all well and good. A female can do that and be competitive with any male through magic.

My issue lies in purely martial characters, and the need for a female to be far more skilled in their martial art (in universe) to match up with a male with the same stat spread.

It's a minor nitpick and I ultimately don't care even if someone does play a 5'1 120 pound human female fighter with 20 str, it genuinely doesn't matter.

And your idea of females and males being equal physically is quite interesting, but really isn't defined in many books or universes. As it stands, in most settings, humans are a copypaste from earth humans. As such, I think there's a disservice in not representing that. However its a greater disservice to limit gameplay options in favor of flavor, especially in something as cemtral and core to RPGs as character creation.

TLDR, females can be fighters if they want, most settings rip humans from earth humans, so it doesnt make sense for female fighters to really be a thing outside of rare occasions, however its a goddamn RPG, so it doesnt matter and females should be able to be martial fighters for the sake of game design.

>>52879214
True

>>52879329
False

>>52878549
>Is that a problem that needs fixing though?

It isn't. If someone wants to play a unique snowflake like Joan of Arc or Brienne they can. Of course in a world full of male fighters, she'll be socially stigmatized by both men and women for different reasons. And they'll never reach the epitome a male would.

>>52879110
>Though now that I think about it, I wonder if this would make Christian Grey a Gary Stu. He's a borderline rapist and abuser but he's rich and handsome so the writer depicts it as romantic and kinky.

Absolutely. Because it's portrayed as romantic and kinky his abusive actions are implicitly excused.

>>52879446
>>52879214
Quick, off the top of your head, the last woman you talked to for more than, let's say, 30 seconds.

>>52879491
I had a job interview earlier today with a woman. What of it?

>>52879453
Joan of Arc never personally fought (other than smacking a prostitute with her sword so hard it broke) and abhorred the act of killing though.

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>>52878481

Rate this character's Mary Sue level:
This:
>LG Half-drow, daughter of a famous warrior and an assassin, her heritage is unknown
>Due to her parental genes and the fact that she's half-elf, she's physically amazonian
>Paladin of the god of light due to her uncanny strength and willpower
>Silently angsts about her unusual nature
But:
>Raised by farmers and then as a paladin, knows basically nothing about the outside world as a result
>Has to constantly hide her face because her appearance is uncanny and threatening to the average person, CHA != comeliness in this case
>Her unusually deep voice and heavy frame causes most people to assume she's a man while she's in armor
>Even though she thinks badly of herself due to her unknown heritage, she refuses to whine about it except when drunk because she believes she has no right to given how well her foster parents treated her
>Has a fixation on oranges.
Unsalvagable? She seems like she'd be a controversial character at best.

>>52879602
It's impossible to have a mary sue in a tabletop setting without the GM facilitating it.

>>52879534
So, not a friend, or a coworker, or a family member?

>>52879491
I'm in bed but the last woman I talked to was probably Amanda, at work.

While anons bullshit about Joan of Arc is exactly that, bullshit, research has been done on the 'dark triad' and women find it very sexually enticing.

>>52879683
There's an important thing called "suspension of disbelief". That's not how women actually see the world. The second someone starts being creepy, he stops being attractive.

Pick any of Rey's traits from Force Awakens.

>>52879736
Wait, wait, obvious exception: Vincent Price.

>>52879751
Being an unlikable cunt?

>>52879652
>Female
>Friend
Nah

>Co-worker
I had a job interview, what do you think?

>Family member
I presumed those don't count. In that case that'd be my mother not too long ago.

>>52879751
>Wide eyed surprise in almost every scene
>Coincidences keep happening
>Well liked by everyone she meets despite having zero charisma
>Events around her become more and more unbelievable
>Exudes an aura that turns everyone else into less competent around her

Really makes me think

How is this /tg/?
>Former ma at arms no longer in service with a lord because that lord is no longer at war and doesn't need the mercenaries to bolster his forces
>Lived as a wandering fighting instructor for a bit
>An Orc ambush caught him by surprise one night
>He lived, but was seriously injured
>Traveling back to a city he somehow got lost, found himself in the ruins of some ancient village
>Encounters a dying deity, with no worshippers to her name, who asks him to be her paladin
>She has enough "power" to only provide a single person with strength - no worshippers = no godly powers
>In exchange for her healing his now infected wounds, he would need to find a way to gain her followers and make her remembered as a proper deity

>>52879833
>no female friends
>not even open to the possibility
>making broad statements about what women like
That's about what I figured.

>>52879882
Oppai Loli/10

>>52879882
That sounds like a pretty great character.

>>52879907
>Implying I've never had female friends
I don't have them now because I don't see any value in them. But that somehow proves me wrong, right?

>>52879736
>The second someone starts being creepy, he stops being attractive.
That's the thing. The creepy threshold for people already attractive is much higher. For an unattractive person, just looking at someone and smiling on the bus can be creepy. For an attractive person it's the complete opposite

>>52879949
I repeat.
>no female friends
>not even open to the possibility
>making broad statements about what women like

>>52879862
It makes me think that she's unconsciously using or surrounded by a probability manipulating field of psuedo physics that has a mind of its own.

Like, you know, the fucking force.

The name of the movie was "the force awakens". Snoke even comments that he has felt "an Awakening". The implication being that the force, which has been dormant for the most part since the end of Rotj, has decided to start actively fucking with the universe again.

Never forget the force is a conscious thing and pretty close to an Eldritch horror or god in its own right

>>52879958
Where, if I may ask, did you get that idea?

>>52880021
>Never forget the force is a conscious thing and pretty close to an Eldritch horror or god in its own right
What about midichlorians?

>>52880022
Are you the autism? This is something that goes for men and women. Details get glossed over when your squishy bits get swollen.

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>>52871753
Too late for a fpbp, but otherwise perfect.

>>52880052
A type of microscopic Flora that is often found thriving in places person's or things where the force has affected realspace, similar to the fairy circles of mushrooms left behind by elves and pixies and shit

>>52879927
I was thinking more like the celtic goddess

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>>52880073
oops forgot pic

>>52880056
I'm asking where you got the impression that it's not creepy when a handsome guy on the bus stares at you.

>>52880097
From women?

>>52880157
How did that conversation go?

>>52880178
Oh my god there was this guy looking at me on the bus and he was super cute

I admire your autistic focus and understand what your trying to do. In fact I hate how /pol/ every board has become. But in this case we're dealing with facts - people apply different standards to those they consider sexually attractive, and women find men who exhibit dark triad traits to be more sexually attractive as part of their biological survival mechanism.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://scottbarrykaufman.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/The-Dark-Triad-Personality.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwiq98C0m77TAhWMdSYKHVUGCS8QFggaMAA&usg=AFQjCNGJdDNL9C3zcy6fJCA6jJzoLvnFuw

>>52880097
>>52880178
Stop being a cunt. Reverse the roles.

>riding the bus
>catch a girl you're attracted to looking at you
>happen to make eye contact
>she smiles
Assuming you're not a literal faggot or fundamentally insecure this communication will be welcome. You'd like to fuck that girl, so her acknowledging you in a friendly manner is a good thing, since you can infer she likes something about you.

>riding a bus
>notice stanky hobo woman looking at you
>happen to make eye contact
>she smiles at you
Assuming you're a normal person and not a paragon of friendliness and virtue, you're gonna feel awkward. You don't want to fuck her. You don't even want to talk to her. You're likely going to spend the rest of the bus ride pointedly avoiding her gaze, in hopes she doesn't make any further contact.

Women work somewhat differently from men, but we're all humans. We like attractive people and dislike uggos.

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>>52871193
Is injury-induced Ansicoria a Sue Trait?

>>52879382
Why is this conversation assuming a 120 lb female and a 200 lb male? Women can build muscle, usually not as efficiently as men but it's definitely possible for women to be muscular. Maybe not Arnold Schwarzenegger muscular, but that much muscle is a liability anyway, it's just as hard on your heart as the same wight of fat. And in a lot of fighting, especially in modern warfare, endurance is more useful than strength to some degree, and women tend to do well in endurance activities with proper training.

tl:dr, supermodel woman martials are ridiculous but realistically athletic women martials are plausible, if uncommon. Humans have some of the least sexual dimorphism among mammals, our cultures affect those differences more than genetics.

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>>52879958
>cute guy asks someone out at the office, gets laid
>all the girls discuss him
>he then sleeps with two more at the office
>zero negative consequences

>ugly guy asks someone out at the office, reported to HR for inappropriate sexual harassment
>management uses this as an excuse to fire him

>>52879882

I'd read that book.

>>52880292
>one study of women from one university found that they ranked men more attractive in some ways and less attractive in others with the difference between the results rarely being greater than the SD
Very convincing.

I'll just cut through it: it's really much more about how he's looking at you that determines if it's creepy. Conversations about it after the fact are more along the lines of "but, like, he didn't get off the bus after you, right?" independent of attractiveness.

>>52880420
I got citations bitch, where are yours

>>52880441
You mean "the null hypothesis"?

What I just did was point out your citation really doesn't prove what you want it to prove.

>>52880420
>one study of women from one university

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/per.698/abstract;jsessionid=4B6EE4B1DF813813BFA961D760236F65.f02t04

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886911003011?via%3Dihub

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886909004619?via%3Dihub

>>52880458
>What I just did was point out your citation really doesn't prove what you want it to prove

Conclusion
In conclusion, the results of our study demonstrate that the
Dark Triad male personality is attractive to women and this effect is not mediated by these men’s greater perceived Extraversion or
Neuroticism. Further work in the sexual marketplace could use-
fully pursue interactions (statistical and social) between sellers
(Dark Triad men) and buyers (women). Regarding the former, does
their attractiveness reside in female choice, or in their capacity to
persuade and manipulate? For the latter, does the appeal of Dark
Triad charm extend to only a subset of women?

There is one primary trait of sueness that is always unmistakable.

A sue is somehow tied to or a focal point for EVERYTHING. There isn't a faction that doesn't hate or love them, or have some form of opinion on them. They have some form of relationship, even if only superficial, with every NPC of importance. Every major event plot and subplot somehow will have elements of their backstory woven into them. They will be "pivotal" to plot in at least several ways if not more. They try, whether as a PC or DM insert, to be an axis along which plot turns if not the central axis.

People can inherently sense this and they despise it. It doesn't matter whether or not it comes in sparkling princess form or brooding anti-hero form. People can smell that shit even if they can't isolate it.

>>52880492
Only one of those actually goes along with what you're trying to prove.

1. "Dark Triad traits correlate more with short-term mating than long-term mating."
2. "Men with high DT scores are less picky about who they choose for long term mating."
3. Does actually support something adjacent to your argument! It doesn't actually support your argument (that when an attractive man does something it's less creepy than when an unattractive man does it), but it's close, in that an online survey shows that DT men are more attractive for short-term mating. Good job!

>>52880525
Yes, I read that. Did you?

>>52880668
>In conclusion, the results of our study demonstrate that the
Dark Triad male personality is attractive to women and this effect is not mediated by these men’s greater perceived Extraversion or
Neuroticism.

>>52878039
In Bongland, self defence is based on fear of what they might have done, rather than what actually happened.

If you say you thought they had a gun, you can get away with literally anything that puts them down, so long as you don't continue using the method when they go down, and so long as you don't attack them when they run.
It doesn't matter if they were actually holding a torch, picks, or even a banana; you can still claim you thought it was a gun so long as there's a reasonable way for you to mistake it (dark, they were moving quickly, smoke, etc)

>>52880317
Its something interesting. If it was more well known it could be the next hetrochormia.

Maybe hide it under a eyepatch or sunglasses as it can make people uncomfortable.

>>52880349
Funny thing, I'm a kinesiology major.

Your argument isn't practical under the assumption that we're using human physiology. At every level of fitness, a male is about 66% stronger in the upper body and 50% stronger in the lower body.

You can look at crossfit, powerlifting, olympic lifting, etc, basically any strength based physical sport, and see it to be true, if not an even wider gap. It is literally physically impossible for a female to be as strong as a male when they train the same. And there's no alternate training methods in which a female's strength will surpass a male's, under the assumption that the male is training correctly as well.

I pulled the weight and heights for the hypothetical characters out of my ass, but the point still applies. The only realistic way a female can hold up to a male in combat is through far superior skill, because human physiology doesn't allow the female body to become as strong as the male body basically ever.

Lets step it up and use world class athletes, male and female. Lets go for the Deadlift, arguably the most physically demanding lift you can do. Tom Magee's one rep max, and world record, is 1180 pounds. Becca Swanson holds the woman's world record at 680 pounds. Swanson fits the theme of women having between 50-66% of a male's strength, even at elite levels.

Now what this all means is that a woman would need to be an exponentially better athlete to obtain the levels of fitness compared to a male fighter of the same stats.

I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying that it's abnormal.

>>52875887
>BTFO Butthurt: the Post
You could at least attempt a rebuttal, but amusingly enough, the sole complaint I have ever heard about the book is with the MC, not the writing, the setting, the magic or characterization.
So you really are just spewing your butthurt for everyone to see.

>>52871193
Being played by someone I don't like.

>>52881015
The first true post

>>52871193

Well liked by every member of the cast the creator likes, even (especially) to the point of severely screwing with established characterization.

Fuck guys, it's like you literally don't know where the term came from and why it was a negative label in the first place.

>>52881055
>Fuck guys, it's like you literally don't know where the term came from and why it was a negative label in the first place.

You don't say

>>52880921
Also, your point about endurance is correct to some extent, however again, even in endurance, a woman is inferior to a male. I can 100% safely say, with scientific backup that a woman of the 80th percentile is objectively a worse athlete than a male of the 80th percentile.

You would need about an 80th percentile woman to compare to a 50th percentile man in terms of athleticism, assuming it's standardized growth. And that's where I start thinking that common race female martial classes start bordering on Marry Sue teritory, because they need to be so far above the average female in athletisism to compete with a male who is also a martial class.

>>52881208
I bet you don't bat an eye at characters who have an intelligence that falls in the top 5%.

>>52879602
Stop being concerned, it shows that you are not able to handle your own game.
If you feel the player can pull it off, then let them.
I've done some outrageous concepts because the gm trusted me to act in a manner that is sensible. The great lie of pnp games is that you can judge a character from description. You can't, it comes down to what the player does in the game, not what they write down beforehand.

>>52880921
It is worth noting that from what I've been able to find, the world record for a man with a weight closer to Becca Swanson's can lift 925 pounds, sorta throwing a wrench into your 66% thing. The stats I could find for Becca Swanson put her max at 640 pounds, so Yury Belkin is about 44% stronger than her when you control for body mass.

There's also the issue that combat is not power lifting.

>>52880349
>Humans have some of the least sexual dimorphism among mammals
Well that's not true. Women need much wider-set hips than men to accommodate childbirth since humans both have massive skulls and rigid pelvises. Humans are also the only mammals with permanently engorged mammary glands; in other species they bloat up only when it's time to actually feed a baby. Men also have weaker immune systems on average and often take longer to recover from comparable injuries (though this diminishes somewhat post-menopause). To say nothing of monthly menstruation, metabolic rates, and neurochemistry.

There are species out there with much more pronounced gender dimorphism, but humans are definitely not on the low side of the spectrum.

>>52875104
isn't that because the MCs of those stories are usually an insert/power fantasy of the target audience who reads those stories?

>>52871956
Pat Rothfuss blows dogs, and the guy they hired to do the audiobook version of his shit story also blows dogs.

>>52880710
Chicken and egg issue, really.
Is it Dark Triad that is attractive to women, or is it men who fall under it's umbrella more readily willing to promote themselves and engage women to woo them, gaining further skill in manipulating others inherent to the Dark Triad?

>>52877206
Percy.

>>52881318
That was a character I was pitching, not a character someone else pitched to me.
Still, I'll take your advice. I've always been overconcerned about my characterization both as a player and as a DM.

>>52881208
The point i'm trying to make is that these things are all on a bell curve, and it makes sense that PCs would be outliers. Some women have abnormal amounts of testosterone, for example, and have performance more similar to a male. A PC isn't supposed to be the average individual at the top of the bell curve, the very fact that they are adventurers means that they are unusual in some way.

>>52881402
You've also got different placement of bone anchors, and such. That's one of the reasons why the transsexual sports thing is going to be a problem into the indefinite future. You can put a person on hormones and such, but you can't physically detach muscles from their anchors on the bone without surgery--which means that a former-male will have a mechanical advantage over other women. East German Swim Team level advantage.

>>52881481
The only way such a character would be of an issue would be if the GM lurked /tg/ or other internet forums with mindsets like it, and brought that herfderf mindset with them.
I learned years ago that people who subscribe to the /tg/ party line are mediocre GMs and terrible players, almost to the man.

>>52877206
I partially disagree. In a written medium, yes.

If it's drawn or animated, hair color is an easy way to make characters look a bit more distinct, and a character with white hair stands out fairly well; not to mention it works very well with certain color schemes. But that bears the caveat that it only works with a stylized art direction. If it's mostly built for realism on the whole, then it sorta veers back more towards Suedom.

>>52881560
>/tg/ party line
...argue about everything, no matter how small?

>>52881283
Not my field of study. I'm biased because I study the human body.

It's also why I can never enjoy pure martial characters in RPGs, because the human body is so fucking weak compared to magic in most universes that I can never get immersed.

I think that martials are easily the weakest in terms of RP and in universe value. They don't do anything special outside of being really good with weapons and their body, but then you have paladins who are just as trained, just as physically adept, but the practice magic as well.

>>52881402
>weight class
That's fair, I'll give you that. However at this point I'm comparing percentiles for each gender, not secondary factors. Swanson is the 100th percentile and Mcgee is the 100th percentile.

There's gonna be 6'2 women that are just gonna be stronger than the rare 5'1 male. As is standard for things that fall on bell curves. However, generally speaking, and backed by multiple academic studies, on average a male is between 50 and 66% stronger than a male.

A good part of what contributes to the 50 66 bit is the fact that males on average have a fuck of a lot more mass than females do.

>>52881500
Yeah, I get that, which is why I don't REALLLLY care too much if a person plays a female pure martial. From a game perspective, i really just don't care. It's just a nitpick that I explored because it's in my field of study.

The reason I brought it up in the first place is that this is a thread discussing Marry Sues, and I think that a woman needing to be so high on the bell curve makes them prone to being a Marry Sue, ESPECIALLY if they have a standard feminine physique. Which is common.

I think anyone with a str over 14 who has a 'standard' physical build is unrealistic enough to potentially be labeled a Marry Sue for simply not following the rules of the universe. And that's really the big gripe I have with female fighters, they're rarely represented in a way that makes any sense.

>>52875032
>Like take a Goliath, they're 7 foot tall hulks basically, a female goliath isn't gonna run into many problems considering they're more physically adept than a human male.
Then why is the comparison between equal-leveled fighters with the same ability scores not a problem for you when it comes to male human versus male goliath? Especially given that their stats will cap at level 20 regardless of level.

>>52881402
Compared to other animals, humans absolutely have low sexual dimorphism.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2730817/

https://www2.nau.edu/~gaud/bio300b/sexdi.htm

>>52881629
I agree that 'sexy' female characters shouldn't be portrayed as super strong fighters, but I'm totally ok with female fighters who are realistically muscular or large, even if that would be statistically uncommon

>>52881596
And also believe that X trait on paper means a character must be awful, or that every GM is shit until proven otherwise and must be regarded with suspicion at all times, or whatever other local prejudices that supersede personal reflection are at play.
>>52881629
Anon, you have clearly shown that you are immensely biased in this conversation for personal reasons, so why not just let this drop?
You are not teaching anyone anything outside of arguing that their fun is wrong because it's not realistic enough, when the vast majority of games dispense with the realism you are promoting, or have a number basis that renders it moot.
You can attempt to badwrongfun as much as you want, but the people that are in your camp already know all of this, and the people who don't care don't give a shit about your numbers because they literally mean nothing to traditional games, so let this go.

>>52881521
Y'know, I've heard people talk about that (mostly on 4chan) but I can't seem to find anything about it in any sort of detail.

>>52881678
Compared to animals as a whole, yes, absolutely. But not compared only to other mammals.

>>52881629
Is it really any more unrealistic than being able to wound a colossal creature with armor-like scales with a dart?

>>52871193
Katana

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>>52871193

>tfw I have heterochromia

Am I a mary sue?

>>52881912
Yes.

>>52881912
Yes, lead the world to glory with your invincible plot armor.

>>52881912
pics or you don't exist.

>>52881951
>>52881942

Does the fact that I'm tall and was born to rich parents make this substantially worse?
I'm also worried that my grades were too high.

>>52881995
>The Chosen of RNGesus

>>52881995
How tall are we talking? And tall means nothing if you're not in good (or at least decent) shape.

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>>52881995
Go raise an army with your eventual inheritance, unify the world under your iron fist that everyone loves because you are the chosen one.
You are the one destined to lead the world, the rolls have chosen you.

>>52882047

According to the data I've found, I'm in the top 1% for my gender and nationality.
And yes, I'm in fairly good shape.

>>52881984

I'd rather not put pictures of myself on 4chan.
Treat it as a hypothetical if you want.

>>52881912
AS THE PROPHECIES FORETOLD!

>>52881672
A male goliath will be stronger than a male human and similarly to how a female human is stricly inferior athletically to a male human, a male goliath is strickly superior in athletisism to a male human.

When it comes down to it, again, I don't really care, it's game mechanics. Physical inequalities that aren't represented in stats bug me from an RP and lore perspective, but not enough to care, and not enough to warent limiting player creation for the sake of fixing my minor gripes.

Most played races are humanlike, and in theory would follow the same rules.

>>52881741
Agreed 100%. Female fighters who actually physically and socially fit the part are totally fine. My problem lies in the atrocious portrayal in most cases.

>>52881759
That's a fair perspective, can't argue with that. However I don't really think it's fair to say 'your opinion is an opinion, therefore it's not worth arguing for'. I have my point of view, and it's valid, regardless of bias. Just as your opinion on the topic is valid.

Opinions as a whole are based on bias. However you can argue your reasoning behind holding your opinion, which is what I'm doing.

>>52881768
It's about relative realism. I don't think that it's standard to be able to pierce plate like scales with darts, and I think its stupid if you try or end up succeeding.

Of course you can. And games in general throw realism to the wind, generally speaking.

>>52882152
Did you use https://tall.life/height-percentile-calculator-age-country/ ?

How pronounced is your heterochromia? Is it the difference between blue-and-different blue or what are we talkin'?

>>52882202
>A male goliath will be stronger than a male human and similarly to how a female human is stricly inferior athletically to a male human, a male goliath is strickly superior in athletisism to a male human.
And yet they all have the same Strength cap.

Interesting.

>>52882224
Game mechanics my dude.

It's not worth the realism if the game is downright shitty because of said realism.

>>52882204

According to your site I'm in the 99.559 percentile
2.6 SDs from average.

My right eye is light green color.
My left is dark brown.

According to my mom, my right eye was actually blue when I was younger. (Like 5 years old.)
I've never heard of such a thing, but I wore a blue contact in my left eye to make my eyes look normal, and I think I still have it in a case somewhere.

>>52882202
>However you can argue your reasoning behind holding your opinion, which is what I'm doing.
Yes, but we aren't talking about real life, and if you insist on pnp games strictly adhering to real life, then you are better served quitting the hobby for something else.
Or see >>52882261.

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>>52874629
It's a show that managed to convince me to keep watching purely thanks to a few of the character designs. It's mostly trash though.

>>52871193
How many mary sue points would mind control be worth? It seems like one of the most overpowered things ever.

>>52882341
Both posts are me bruv.

I'm bothered more by poor game mechanics than lack of realistic stat representation. Game mechanics and freedom in character creation>realism.

>>52882303
That's pretty tall.

>>52882393
Oddly, Mind Control only causes MS points if the victims *don't* resent it after the fact.

Purple Man (Jessica Jones, Marvel Comics) gets very literally everything he wants: but he is distinctly not a Gary Stu, because his victims FUCKING HATE HIM. Also, he has almost no sue-ish qualities otherwise.

>>52879049
I 100% agree. There are "Mary Sues" that have no particular flaws, but they're well liked characters because they are well-written and liked by the readers. Actual Mary Sues are insufferable because the author is presenting a flaw as an asset.

>>52871193
Back in my DeviantArt days pls no bulli except maybe a little I noticed that pretty much eeeeevery single Mary Sue character had
Flaws: can't swim

Which, I mean, is a great Mary Sue flaw to have. It doesn't actually communicate anything about your character's personality or conflict and there's a good chance it'll never come up, but, hey! It seems big, doesn't it?

In general I'm wary whenever a character's flaws are described separately from their personality.

>>52882507
Makes sense, I'd want nothing but death for someone who mind controlled me.

>>52882614
I often see the argument that there are well liked mary sues that are well written, but i rarely see examples, this is your opportunity: cite one or two, and we can debate the merits and degree of their sue-ness.

>>52882669
If you've been on the internet more than ten years, you had a DeviantArt period.

Mine has resulted in a backlog of subscribed artist feeds which is in excess of 10,000 pornographic (or, at the very least, lewd) images that, one day, i'm sure, i will have to manually clean out.

>>52882744
It overlapped with my Gaia Online phase.

>>52882393
Usually, mind control has a bunch of limitations on it to keep it 'balanced'.
>Superhero setting
>A psychiatrist who's a sleeper super
>His 'natural persuasion' is actually low-key mind control, and he never found out until the Supers Registration Act equivalent hit the books
>Now he's afraid to talk to anyone in case he ends up screwing someone over or getting arrested for abuse of powers
>Dismissed from his job for obvious reasons, he now runs an online blog to support anti-power wristbands (which would allow him to return to being a psychiatrist)
>Opposes the player characters because their vigilante justice makes people believe that supers shouldn't wear bands in case their powers can save lives
...And now I have a new villain concept.

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>>52882669
That sounds pretty on point to me, yeah.

>>52882393
In my book, mind control defaults to Mary Sue power unless the power is limited in some way, such as only allowing suggestion of thoughts or rousing emotions, and even then it's more like mind manipulation since one has no actual steering over the other.
I could be biased, since mind control is often used as a cop-out or is OP, and I find the idea of completely subverting the will or altering the thoughts of someone else to be all but completely evil.

>>52871221
>literally playing as the rape victim everyone loves right now

I guess I botched it

>>52883415
Do they love you because you play the character in an interesting, charismatic, naturally magnetic way? Or do they love you because you say they love you?

>>52883456
The first one!

At least, I hope so!

I'm so glad the Ronda meme is dead

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtdmHyVpLDc

>>52880369
This is way more common than you think

>>52879958
>smile at strangers all the time
>people smile back

Holy hell does that mean I'm not a misshapen demon? I didn't know that was the test; awesome!

>>52882341
Holy shit bro, not the guy you are so angry at but damn you must have some crazy autism. He's talking about Mary Sues in a thread about Mary Sues. He said multiple times that he doesn't mind them in pnp games. If I'm reading what he's saying correctly, which I could totally wrong, he's referring to characters in works of fiction. For example, that black chick from uncharted 4 was a super human by female standards. When I played through that game and she starts kicking the shit out of Nathan Drake, an experienced fighter out weighting her but what must be 60 or 70 pounds, I was able to suspend my disbelief and say "well she's a mercenary and must just be better at fight". Then when you fight her again with Sam and she still kicks both of the over 200 pound men taking her on at once, I call bullshit.

I felt what he was talking about was when you have female characters in fiction that are stated to be normal humans,yet some how they manage to wrecks legions of well trained men while having the body type of a Victoria's Secret model, that they are treading into Mary Sue territory.

>>52884087
Or, because that post is full of crap, it's just that your smile doesn't come off as creepy.

>>52884265
That's almost as good!

Funny story Anons, I'm pretty sure I am a God's Mary Sue, or at least an rpg character.
Pros:
Heterochromia, White Hair, double-jointed, eidetic memory for books. High charisma, people assume I'm in my 30's when I'm only 23. Partially webbed toes.
Cons: Can only hear out of one ear, farsighted, can never join the armed forces, difficulty hearing in crowded rooms, telling the direction of sound, horrible memory for names.

I think I'm either a bard or a broken wizard. Go look up Waardenburg syndrome if you think I'm full of shit. Anyway, thought tg might find it interesting. Does anyone else have perks or obviously min-maxed character traits?

>>52878028
Either that or some super special race that look just like humans but are just straight up better than humans.

>>52884568
You really ought to dip into Sorc for your next few levels, the feat selections are hella OP.

>>52873441
>If the story cannot function without his or her presence.

Does this make Romeo a mary sue?

>>52884868
He dies at the end, so that's not a good example.

>>52882744
>If you've been on the internet more than ten years, you had a DeviantArt period.
fuck you anon why did you have to remind me

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>>52871193
Would failure be considered a Mary Sue trait? Like "I tried to defend my village against an Orc raid. I was wounded, the men fighting beside me were killed, the women and children were all taken and haven't been seen since". And then having similar failures haunt your character's past as they fail to save anyone they care about?

>>52884900
I just realized that that phrasing was ambiguous, but you know what I mean. The play goes on after he dies, at least for a short period.

>>52878127
It's a site that picks apart shite roleplaying games

>>52884925
Not a Mary Sue
People need to stop misusing Mary Sue

>>52874909
>why not take both eyes

>>52871193
Being a overly talented little or young girl.

>>52881741
Brienne of Tarth being a good example

>>52874909
>She'd tare the eyes out of people if she thought they had pretty eyes and replace one of her own eyes with it.
That's fucking horrifying. I love it.
Personally, I have a noblewoman in my setting whose beauty causes lots of people to try and seduce her. They don't succeed. Instead, she collects their heads, and gives them to her husband as gifts.
In exchange, he sends her the best of any jewelry he wins as part of his war spoils.

>>52873741
TFW you actually have heterochromia.

>>52882676
Plus he raped some, adding fuel to the fire.


For me, always succeeding would be the biggest one. They never really fail in they're goals.

>>52884087
If you are just randomly smiling at people they are likely just being polite.

>>52884900
True but if he died at the start there wouldn't be a story in the first place since the story is him falling in love and dying. The rest is just clean up that boils down to the effects of him dying.

>>52885190
>For me, always succeeding would be the biggest one.

Honestly I wouldn't really consider even that a Mary Sue. Because conceivably you could have a character who is literally the greatest fighter or a supernatural being far beyond humanity that causes people to have realistic reactions to him and who doesn't utterly dominate the plot.

>>52871221
I was in a Pathfinder campaign on Roll20 once with a chick whose character was enslaved with implied rape TWICE in her backstory.

>>52884925
Why would failure be considered a sue trait.

>>52873441
Can you explain what you mean by that. The story being able to function without a character being there means the character is utterly pointless, which isn't good.

>>52885379
Mostly due to modern day young adult novels.

They tend to have the "Oh woe is me. I've failed my entire life in such a way as to make it not really a failure because the plot will bend itself around me to make sure I'm utterly untouchable and objectively right about everything. But I'm not overly idealized because I fail a lot okay??"

>>52885298
Well, I interpreted it more like
>All character motivations grind to a halt if the protagonist isn't present
And the conflict in the story goes outside Romeo and Juliet, even if the focus is on them. If you removed Romeo and Juliet, you wouldn't have Romeo and Juliet, but the conflict between the Montagues and Capulets would still be there. You could use it as a basis for a complete, if different, story.
In other words, characters outside of the focus character exist, with their own characterization besides 'perform some function for Mary Sue's story'.
Mercutio does perform a function in Romeo's story, but he's his own character too.

>>52871753

Just as a thought experiment, at the risk of getting shitposting and arguing about who is and who isn't one I'd see if anyone can think of:

-A mary sue/Gary sue that does not have this qualification
Or
-Someone who does have this qualification but is not a mary sue/Gary sue

>>52885546
Yeah now that makes more sense. If the entire plot is only about that one person and by removing them it reveals the rest of the world is just window dressing then it's a mary sue.

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>>52885463
>I've failed my entire life in such a way as to make it not really a failure because the plot will bend itself around me to make sure I'm utterly untouchable and objectively right about everything
So as long as you avoid that kind of "failure", then your not crossing into Mary Sue territory.

>>52885588
It kind of depends really. That post is describing one of the symptoms of a Mary Sue not so much the decider.

I've always said the main true cause of a Mary Sue is if the laws of the narrative bends around the character in such a way to make it nonsensical most of the time for the writers enjoyment.

Like it's possible to have a character everyone in the story loves because he is really a great guy. It's shown he is a self sacrificing person who cares. There isn't that many others around so ti's realistic that they like him.

On the other hand if he walks up to dark Morte the devourer of souls and men and then suddenly the guy decides he loves him like a brother after five seconds of conversation and decides to stop being an evil overlord for no real reason other then a few pages of the writer jacking off at their fiery conversation skills and appearance.

Or just in general some asshole who runs around doing evil things with no real dislike from the world for no in universe reason outside of "Well because it's X who did it." Then you've got a sue.

>>52885588
Can't give examples, but it might be possible for a near universally loved character to not be a Marty Sue if they have a good reason for being loved by both the characters and audience.

As for the other way around? I don't know, unless there is such thing as an Evil Sue, but evil characters are usually disliked by good people and Sues might always have to be on the right side of the plot.

>>52881481
Are you playing this character to try and make every scene about your character and their oh so angsty background and personal issues?

Is your GM going to do so on your behalf?

No?

Then it's not a problem.

The whole point of being a mary sue is that they have too many traits, there's no such thing as a single trait that makes somebody a mary sue. It's when the characters proficient in just so many areas that it becomes obvious that it's because the plot demands and not how the character was written and the author just couldn't bare to have their super-special ultimate character not be the center of attention for a scene.

>>52887954
A complete lack of traits can also make a character a Mary Sue. Just look at Twilight.

>>52874629
>>52882388
Let's be honest, Hestia is the only reason to watch this show. Even if you ignore the oppai, she's a cute, endearing and all-round enjoyable character.

What were they thinking when they greenlighted a spin-off without her for this season? Two episodes in I only really enjoy the brown amazon twins, and they barely get any screentime.

>>52873441
so literally EVERY main hero of EVERY book is a Mary Sue?

>>52875790

Could you give a non-reader a quick run-down of it?

>>52875014
>My characters martial prowess is unmatched! They are the greatest swordsmen in all the realms!
Someone has to be the best swordsmen in all the realms
Is Jaime Lannister a Mary Sue for you?

>>52884087

fucking americans

>>52888019
If you read the books (I did not, but...) "Clumsy" is her flaw. That's another physical one that's up there with "cannot swim". Seems reasonable, but probably won't come up.

>>52880021
>Snoke even comments that he has felt "an Awakening"
before Rey does fucking anything
It's not about her

>>52879602
desu I'm seeing nothing wrong with this, sure the halfbreed aspects is often a staple of the Mary Sue, but I'm not seeing the problem with this character.
Why does she have a fixation on oranges? She hates them? She loves them?

>>52888959
No it's not. If something doesn't impact the characters life in a negative way or come up in the plot to make things more difficult for them it's not a flaw.

Bella is a nothing character. Mary Sue has nothing to do with having certain "traits." Those are common symptoms, not the cancer.

>>52881479
To be fair, i'd rate 'deal with the devil' as a higher level MS trait than just having white hair. I suspect that was just Talesin injecting his own bananas hairstyles into the character

>>52889120
All other things being equal, she will choose an orange over any other snack. It's a character quirk.

>>52871753
This.

Interesting subversion though if the character is just an advanced psychic intentionally (or just reflexively) mindraping people into being charmed by them, and every so often someone passes their Will save.

>>52876522
Nisio pls

>>52889408
This is true, but how he got his white hair was also ridiculous.
The first time I saw him dye his hair, my first reaction was literally "boy shave that shit off your head!"

>>52871193
Suffering none of the consequences for her own actions and suffering all of the consequences for... what?

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>>52881984
fine

i'm going to regret this

>>52893330

You're cute, but you're probably right about regretting this.

>>52893330
> attractive woman
> 4chan /tg/

Yeah... right. Let me try reverse image search.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2215143/

You think we're fucking stupid?

Rolled 29 (1d100)

>>52880317

Rollan for new fetish.

>>52885588
Mr. Rogers.

>>52893413
>http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2215143/
Reminder that Taylor Swift browsed 4chan.

>>52874386
thank you for defining what a Mary Sue is

>>52885588
>Someone who does have this qualification but is not a mary sue/Gary sue
With enough force of personality or charisma, you could make friends with pretty much everyone. If you're still a pathetic figher (and you often get into dangerous situations), as well as other flaws, I'd hardly call you a mary sue.

>A mary sue/Gary sue that does not have this qualification
Probably a lot of edgy mary sues? Do those exist? Shit I don't know.

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>>52871193
The underlying cause of Mary Sue is that the author is trying to life vicariously through the character and simultaniously is the god of their own setting, because, as the author, they decide each and every event.
In an RPG the creator of the character is more limited in their power of the narrative, they can decide the characters traits (although often there are stat limitations) and backstory. The singlemost Mary Sue trait is therefore an overly extensive backstory, wherein the player can imagine anything to make her cooler without the constrictions of game rules.

>>52893413
Also the league of legends general has an nfl player that goes to it

>>52871413
unless it is literally a curse pertaining to their beauty, it has no place at a gaming table

>>52871193
Half [non-player race]

>>52882388
>>52888091
I will never understand why people watch shitty shows just for character designs, just go open a booru for fuck sake.

>>52873441
>If the story cannot function without his or her presence.
What does this even mean?
Every story needs a character to function.

>>52875617
Nana?

>>52875617
Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinju was literally the best animu of last year.

Also, hi /tg/!

>>52897190
Is this a recent meme?

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>>52871193
Are you saying Yuna is a Mary Sue?

Mediocre voiceacting aside, I always liked the character. She had a lot of inner strength, all things considered.

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>>52874035
>You know there actually were female soldiers of varying stripes throughout history, yeah?
That doesn't really change anything.

>The difficulty curve is higher without testosterone
As well as the other physiological differences (e.g. inherent upper body strength, skeletal differences, etc), but yeah, thats the point.

I don't think anyones making the point that all women are weaker than all men, or that no women could be a soldier, thats idiotic. Just that, in general, if all else is equal, a man who has significantly more muscle mass (e.g. 50lbs+) will >90% of the time, beat a woman in physical combat, unaided by magic.

No one is saying it doesn't ever happen. Just that its the exception rather than the rule. Regardless, as soon as you add magic into the equation, its pretty much irrelevant, sans the player expectations and personal preferences.

Pic somewhat related, at least, to the military aspect you mentioned.

>>52888837
Hes not even the best, far too underhanded now.

>>52888813
sure:

- it's shit

>>52899272
Because it;s weird to really like a character design and then later find out that the actual character is awful. It's better to know that the character design is wasted before you go too far in imagining what the character might be like.

>>52879382
Being born into a fantasy setting affiliates you with magic the same way being born into our world affiliates you with physics. It's an innate part of everything you do.

The square-cube law demonstratively doesn't exist in a setting with giants. Nor do most fundamental concepts of biology in one work regenerating monsters like trolls and hydra. Aerodynamics doesn't govern any world with large flyers like griffons and dragons. Yet those aren't considered supernatural, just standard fantasy biology.

When you get right down to it, expecting martial characters to function like they would on Earth is what's unrealistic. You should be shocked if a martial character can't pull off some incredible physics-defying feat, when giants and dragons are walking around in the same world, unhindered by antimagic fields and unaffected by being dispelled.

Top tier thread hijacking, by the way. You managed to tie -4 Str and Martials vs Magic together to make some truly excellent bait.

>>52871753
What if the character in question is universally loved by society and their underlings, but the player characters know that they're secretly an awful human being and hate them accordingly?

>>52910194
Then you end up with a situation like Percy from Critical Role, in that they're still a Mary Sue, they're just in denial, alongside their creator.
Mary Sue as a term has (d)evolved from a uniform set of characteristics to how they're perceived.

>>52907342
In her case it's not, because her heterochromia is a sign of mixed blood between races that don't normally mix in that setting. It easily could've been a mary-sue thing, but wasn't with Yuna FF-X.

>>52911736
>her heterochromia is a sign of mixed blood between races that don't normally mix in that setting.

I'm going to argue that makes her MORE mary-suish, not less.

>>52911881
>I'm going to argue that makes her MORE mary-suish, not less.

It does make her more mary-sueish but it doesn't make her a mary-sue. Which is what I more-or-less said. "It easily could've been a mary-sue thing, but wasn't with Yuna FF-X."

What I'm stating is that she has a typical red flag for mary-suedom but she isn't a mary-sue due to how it is handled.

>>52871193
Expecting or receiving undo praise from other characters, duh.

>>52880973

Actually, the story and characterization is pretty shitty overall too. Everyone is defined by whether or not they're mean/helpful to kvothe, or 'special' in some way or another, and the villians are such cardboard cutouts I'm frankly surprised the noble hair asshat doesn't have a mustache just so he can twirl it villianously at kvothe when he poops all over his dreams and everyone around him pretends it isn't happening because plot.

Frankly the book is just overall disappointing. There's some interesting bits, and some parts are honestly quite well done, it's just all shackled to the sueiest sue who ever sued his way across the face of suedom, and a writer who couldn't script his way out of a wet paper sack. I'd love to read a version of the series with a rewrite that stripped away all the attempts to remind you how amazing kvothe is when he isn't constantly sabotaging his own life and a few applications of the cluebat to the author to remind him that he isn't the first person to come up with this idea for a story, and he should stop being so impressed with his own originality.

>>52913706
>expecting undue praise

This is fine. It's actually receiving it that's Sue part.