>BBED says might makes right Is there a counter argument besides

>>52825586
Poison him

Yes, but why would you even need anything else?

>>52825599
Trying to be diplomatic.

>>52825586
might does objectively make right

source: the history of mankind

>>52825586
How is that a counter argument?

Aren't you proving him right?

>>52825586
War determines who is left, not who is right. But three wars will make a right anyway.

>>52825713
Well, in a way it's a counter argument:
>Might makes right is wrong because if you believe that and I kicked your ass then I am justified in doing anything I want to you.
Or:
>Might makes right is wrong because there will always be someone stronger than you, who in this concept will always be right and you wrong.

>>52825586
Might is a very fickle thing. It will fulfill you for some time. But soon, you will find it leaving you for someone else.

>>52825586
Come get some faggot, even if you can beat us we'll make it sure it's a Pyrrhic victory.

>>52825713
Technically no, because OP would be right by virtue of being mightier

>>52825773
But by doing the first thing you just prove that BBED was right.

>>52825586
Ruin him.

Persuade those that back him to abandon him

Slander and lie his allies away from him

Steal his wealth out from under him

Crumble his tower from around him

Leave him with no friends, no allies, no wealth, no army and not hole to hide him and when he is alone and exposed with absolutely nothing cut him the fuck down and tell him that yes, he was stronger than you.

Or cut him the fuck down right now if you can. For fucks sake you are being paid to kill a guy, who care what his personal philosophies are?

>>52825586
What is right about might? I mean, sure a powerful individual can get away with whatever he wants for a time but if he's enough of an asshole eventually someone is gonna shiv him in his sleep. Reshaping the world via pure strength of body and will is like stretching out an elastic band: eventually its gonna snap back at you.

>>52825798
A cuckold's phisolophy

>>52825586
That line of thinking is inherently a genetic fallacy: The personal success of a person has no relation to the validity of their argument.
Will you be able to impose your belief if you are the strongest? Probably, which is the intent behind the meaning in most situations.

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>>52826288
>Someone shivs in his sleep

Subtle force is still force anon.

The only "error" often found in those who profess Might Means Right is those who forget that

1. Subtle Might is still Might. Diplomacy and espionage can be just as effective as armies and super powers.

2. Two is bigger then 1. Two Big Dudes will always be stronger then 1 Big Dude.

3. Social Organization and groups are therefore acceptable means to power, and better maintained when supported with group-loyalty and networks of reciprocity. Being a dick for no reason because "Muh might" is likely to get you stabbed by four other dudes who work better together and have more Might collectively then you do individually.

TLDR: Might IS Right, but the only person to understand the full implications of that as opposed to just using it as a license for dickery is Broskander.

>>52826184
At that point he can argue that all your support is might.

That's the fickle thing about the argument. It doesn't have to just mean raw muscle or magical prowess.

>>52826356
Or the objectively correct stance of someone at least halfway intelligent, who realizes that the wages of time eventually take any might you once had, away from you.

I mean shit, you can't really debate that man. You can sock him in his smug ass face though

>>52826369
Well sure if you define might to mean "basically anything" then yeah "might is right"
If you define might as "I got the bigger muscles/army" then it isn't

>>52825586
Be unbeatupable yourself and then ignore him and do your own thing.

>>52826377
So we kill him, get paid and move on. We are practical people. His philosophical drivel isn't going to pay the rent but the price on his head will.

>>52825586
Assuming he isn't a cardboard cutout he has motives for doing what he does outside of that.
Beat him up. Ask him if he now is willing to simply give up on all that because clearly you're stronger. This could transition into all kinds of things but that's how you start.

>>52826405
So you should be come a lich.

>>52826468
Yeah lets put my soul in a breakable object, that if it's ever broken will kill me, or leave me without a way to regenerate if my body is ever destroyed.

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>>52826425
Might is Right means that the value of any imperative is limited by your ability to enforce that imperative.

In short, all value and moral systems, as well as all interests and goals, ultimately rest on the basis of potential enforcement and ability to overcome resistance.

>>52825598
/thread

>>52826984
>Disprove someone who thinks that Force justifies all philosophies
>By using Force on him

>>52825586
Beating him up, and then saying right makes might. Had a barbarian who was dedicated to becoming a holy man of Kord devoted to this idea.

>>52825586
>BBED
Righteous

>>52825586
>arguing with the villain

Stop jawin' and start smitin'.

>>52825586
>BBED

Ugh.

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The only way to conceivably change the mind of someone who is committed to these ideals is to expose them to misery and lack of satisfaction associated with having great might, or that would invalidate great mights ability to influence. Unfortunately, since they may be too focused or too impulsive or self-interested to influence them this way in the short term, this can prove tricky and not ideal. Thus, if you're trying to prove him wrong to himself, you are likely going to struggle and it may not be worth it to engage him in debate. If you're trying to prove it to someone else, though, you may be forced to let him have his way for a while. It depends on your aim.

>>52825586
What is: Religion
I mean, sure there are some religions that still have might to them, but what of say, Christianity? It is not like there is a tangible positive or negative to believing in it.

Though this is a fantasy world, so perhaps praying to a being does given power. In which case, I'd concede then beat him.

>>52825586
Kenshin Himura (from Rorouni Kenshin/Samurai X) repeatedly solved this exact situation by talking to villains, helping them see their humanity, and not killing them. He even turned a lot of villains into allies by convincing them of the error of their ways.

So yeah, diplomacy and protecting the weak. Talk the talk and walk the walk.

>>52825586
Nope, better prove him right, hero

>>52826929
So time is the strongest imperative?

>>52826929
Right, but if you're a tyrant then you'll earn the enmity of forces from both within and without ultimately resulting in the destruction of everything you've built. It may take generations but "Right" always destroys the immoral "Might". I suppose you'd argue "that's just another might asserting their right" but... uh... well... that's just like you're opinion man!

>>52826135
no he's wrong because he's not the mightiest, ya dig?

>>52825586
Beating him up is THE answer

>say might makes right
>'ok'
>beat him up
>"I'm the mightiest and I say might doesn't make right. Enjoy your paradox, it's my right to enforce on you because of my might. Which I don't believe in. I would be concerned about my hypocrisy, but it doesn't matter because i'm in charge. Because of my Might."

>>52826405
>Or the objectively correct stance of someone at least halfway intelligent, who realizes that the wages of time eventually take any might you once had, away from you.

Like he said, a cuck's philosophy

>>52828473
If he was a true follower of his philosophy he would smile a bloody smile knowing you bested him and deserve to rule

>>52828627
So what you're saying is... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYAPgPH9hsI

>>52828812
Yes

>>52828606
So you think aging makes one a cuck?

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>>52825586
>Reading this thread.

Come on, guys. There have been times in history where an army wasn't enough, but a man was.

Assuming he's reasonable, you deal with him in weakness so that he doesn't find that he need to deal with someone in a position of strength.

Isn't that right, Om?

>Bash his head in with a rock while screaming YOU CANNOT DERIVE OUGHT FROM IS and THIS EVENT IS NOT RIGHT OR WRONG; IT JUST IS.

How'd I do?

Suck his dick till he does something different. Then sex makes right. Power makes right

The paladin can tell "Right makes might!" and then smite him

>>52827002
Poison is the tool of the weak to eliminate the strong.

>You Heroes cannot best Me! What can you hope to Posit? Might makes Right! Care to Disagree?
Reply: No. I do not Disagree

and then you proceed to Slaughter him.

>>52830082
So it's a tool that makes a weak person stronger than the strong? if so, essentially the weak are the strong.

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>>52825730
>War determines who is left, not who is right

>>52825586

it's not a counter argument- you just proved his argument.

>>52825586
'Prove it.'

>>52831744

No that's stupid, that's like saying a calculator is a tool to make a dumb person smarter than the smart.

>>52825586
two men stand better chance in a fight than just one.

>>52831744
you could also say that about power armor.

We are going to end up a bunch of weekend warriors inside battlearmor. Before long we are going to be drafting rent-a-cops and corporate security goons to fight in real battles.

>>52832130
We are going to watch tanks get stopped dead in their tracks by someone wedging a rock into their gears. Our apc's and riot vehilces are going to get destroyed by bottles of hard liquor and a quarter tank of gasoline.

We need more and better men.

>>52832141
Everything is a new toy, some new coybow gadget that they think is going to give them the edge over the enemies superior morale and fighting ability.

They are going to crush our skulls with clubs made of bone.

Beat him up while insisting that you're wrong, creating a paradox.

>>52825586
>glass him
Does it mean hitting him with a glass?

>>52832228
Yes, to smash a glass on his face

Beating him through subterfuge, repeatedly, until he admits that brainless brawn is useless in the face of tactics and cunning.

Then beat him up.

>>52832246

"But wait, what is might but the ability to exert power? You've changed the playbook, but not the game!"

>>52825586
He's right though.

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How about a historical based counter argument?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opkMyKGx7TQ

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>>52825586

Moral power cannot be defined by physical power. If I am confronted by a robber at the edge of a woods, I'm not making a moral choice to hand over my money - I'm being coerced into the action. Likewise, there is no such thing as 'misrule' in a might makes right society - because the only way to engage in misrule is to be the strongest.

>>52825586
Remind him that love conquers all by raping him into submission.

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>>52825671
The promise of the use of force is an inherent part of diplomacy. Diplomacy of about reaching terms to political agreements without the use of force, by setting terms that match the outcome that would be reached had there been a use of force, but with the benefit that neither side needing to risk the consequences of the use of force. This is also where the weaker part can hope to lose less by convincing that what is offered by the weaker part is a better deal than what would be gained by force due to saving the stronger part their investement in force.

So being diplomatic is telling the badguy to submit to your terms or you'll fuck him up, then maybe negotiate until you reach a compromise, or if you're the weaker part, tell him you'll be DTF rather than fighting and him taking you as his sex slave, and that this outcome is preferable as he avoids the risk of his fight with your going bad.

I made this up as i write it.

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>>52826184
>when you're CN, anything is possible

>>52825586
>BBED
Udh.

>>52828871
No, it just makes you one.

>>52825586
claim that right makes might then challenge him to a duel to prove your point

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>>52825586
>I don't argue with a dead man.

>Right is of it's own. Might is what I'm gonna use to kick you ass.

>After you die today, I will be alone atop the summit of power in this world. And I will step down, because despite this, I do not know where to draw the line in the gray. That is something else, that is something that despite all my might, I do not have. I will listen to those who do for that decision, and I will watch the world turn. Now die, die so the world may live.

>Not a chance fancypants.

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>>52832496

>>52828627
But not a single BBEG has ever been a true follower of this philosophy.

>>52827826
More like entropy. But yes. In the end it wins over everyone.

>>52827873
So a bunch of people is stronger than you and they enforce their own vision of how everything should. I don't see how their might doesn't make them right.

You assume that Might always wants to rule as a tyrant but it is not always the case. Might is just what makes it possible to enforce how you want the world to be. Paladin crushing and smiting evil uses Might too.

>>52825586
As my incredibly stupid, but left handed, barbarian would reply:

"Might makes LEFT!" and then punch him with my left hand.

>>52832691
What this guy said.

Any villain that claims "might makes right" is just trying to avoid facing any consequences for being a bully and an asshole.
When everything comes crumbling down around them and they get their ass kicked, they never actually submit to the mightier individual doing the ass kicking.

>>52829166
Good.

>>52832459
Sorry, everyone ages and dies nobody is exempt from it, so you would be too, as would everyone else here.

>>52837138
What if I'm immortal?

>>52831744
It doesn't make them stronger, it just renders the strong person dead and doesn't rely on any strength skills of the person poisoning them. At most you need to be sneaky or a good liar

>>52837509
Denial doesn't help you, but even if you are somehow immune to aging it does not make you immune to death.
>>52837575
Strength isn't just physical strength though, A persons individual strength or rather power is defined by what resources and tools they have at their command, poison may be a tool only the "weak" use, but it at the very least invalidates any mighty persons so called strength when a conflict arises.

>>52837824
>it at the very least invalidates any mighty persons so called strength

Meaning that Might is meaningless, so it can't be used as a judge of who is right.

Unless you really want to stretch things so that 'might' means 'a,y sort of advantage at all', but at that point it's so broad that the philosophy is meaningless.

I mean, at that scope, it boils down to that being right just means being able to get others to agree with you. Even if you're doing it with words and philosophical reasoning, you're still using your advantages to influence people to your way of thinking.

So either the BBEG is making a meaningless statement so that circumventing him doesn't matter because he has no point, or he's arguing from the traditional meaning of the phrase that implies more physical force of arms and skill in combat, so trickery subverts his argument perfectly.

>>52838157
I know, which is why this whole thread is kind of pointless.

>>52837824
>Denial doesn't help you, but even if you are somehow immune to aging it does not make you immune to death.
What if I'm immune to death (god or demigod)?

>>52838415
Those do not exist in this reality, Immortality as in agelessness could, if one discovered how to make their Chromosomal telomeres never diminish with time, but even if they did, even death must die one day.

>>52825598
this

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>>52826635
>alternative is dying anyway

Sounds good to me

>>52838486
>Those do not exist in this reality
This is a magical world however.

>>52838794
Nothing OP said implied that it was a magical world, and you can have magic without gods.

>>52838823
True, but I'm a demigod in a magical world. So time isn't a problem. :^)

>>52838961
Demigods are mortals.

>>52832533
>>52832496
fuck by which I mean that you gain a buff that's more powerful the more right you are

Ask him to prove through might alone that 2 + 2 = 5.
Add that beating people into stating that doesn't work, because he would literally have to beat every sentient being everywhere forever.

>>52825586
No.

It's the law of every king and tyrant ever.

>>52839879
No, that's Divine Right to Rule, go back to history class.

>>52829166
Hume/10