/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

So what happens if a human who was created as a component of a demon's Cover gets Embraced, or Awakens, or something?

>>52806765
Cover is part of the demon isn't it?

>>52806591

How do you know it's a thing if you haven't looked it up? What do you even look up?

>>52806653

Vampire:
Tzimisce absolute fucking monster, or an OD Nosferatu who's much of the same. Fuck Touchstones. Had another OD with Malkavia who found out that Dementation actually works on the Strix.

Werewolf:
Havent't got a NWoD woof who sticks out yet, but I used to have a Bone Gnawer who ripped on other tribes like 24/7. "Black Furies, huh, they ain't even BLACK, yall!"

Mage:
NWO operative who said things that made people question their very existence. Was actually able to work with a mostly Trad group without fucking them all.

Or my attempt at creating cyborgs in Awakening. Gotta say it worked pretty well, as long as they weren't sleepers. ~I~ never tried it on sleepers, but the Guardians tried to frame me for it.

Wraith:
Never got to play, but I had a cryonics researcher who got frozen as part of a prank gone wrong in Sin-Eaters. His Geist looks like a frozen caveman corpse, claims to be that old, but it's probably bullshit.

>>52806653
VtR: Invictus/Ventrue Hound with a hound. Because even a vampire won't lie with dobermans teeth on his crotch

So, something to discuss: What sort of things should a spirit ask for as a part of a bargain? What can a spirit ask players to do that's fun and engaging "on-screen"?

>>52806926

Generally, you look for corporate supply chains and the malfeasances thereof. Before you buy something, explore the connections the company in question has. For example, Nestle uses child labour on a truly ridiculous scale, in appalling conditions. This isn't exactly concealed. The company has been responsible for mass deaths of babies by convincing mothers that breast milk is less healthy than formula. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Now go and find how many subsidiaries Nestle has; how many food service corporations it has investments in.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nestl%C3%A9_brands

That's the short list.

That's all really easy to find. It takes planning and effort to work around that - for poor people, it often isn't even possible - but are you even choosing to try?

I'm not, because I'm kind of a selfish asshole. But that's all a Seer is. He only looks like a selfish asshole to other people because they get screwed over by people like him, instead of the litany of people they screw over in turn.

>>52807283

Pretty sure that breast milk thing is to a large extent bullshit.

But if you look into everything like that your life would slow down to a crawl leaving you unable to get anything done. And how do you sort fact from fiction besides knowing that organic food is a marketing ploy and not to believe places like naturalnews?

>>52807283

The Seer is making the world worse on purpose because they have been told to do so. That is their explicit aim, to keep people down.

Intent matters.

>>52807528

Same way you found out organic foods are a marketing ploy and not to believe places like naturalnews.

And, yeah, these things would all take time away from your day and make your life a bit more difficult. But you're literally contributing to child slavery every time you do it.

And that's my point. Seers don't have to see some poor bastard with anger issues beat his wife as victims create more victims. The Seer just has to keep putting money in the pockets of the right politicians or keep building inspectors away from rat-infested ghettos.

As for the breast milk thing, Nestle does stuff like promoting formula as a healthier alternative to breast milk, which it gives out for free in hospitals and such. Nestle's been ruled against by the UK Advertising Standards Authority, by the World Health Organization, Oxfam, etc., for massively unethical practices, re: formula. It is anything but bullshit.

>>52807570

Intent does matter, but so do consequences. The Seers have the same excuse as anyone; they're just trying to get by. They don't hate you personally, and can't, because they aren't even thinking of you.

Seers don't have to be sadistic or malicious; just willing to say "Fuck you, got mine".

>>52807570
>Intent matters.

Also while negligence or just turning a blind eye can be considered a way to be "part of the problem" thats not what the seers is about.

Their book and the author is pretty clear that the seers any seers is disaude of that notion very early on and made to do questionable things.

Favoring or not voting a shitty candidate is one thing but blackmailing the opposition because the elder gods told you to do so is another.

The excuse of "you just want do your own thing and join the seer for security" doesnt fly that much because a) Mage supremacy and b) you can choose to be nameless and jerk off to your magical waifu for the rest of your life and not meddle with humanity.

>>52807283

The Seers, as i've said repeatedly, saw outer gods with big bank accounts, and bent the knee. They're not "just trying to get by," They join the Seers for the perks of limitless wealth and power by pissing in the face of all mankind forever.

Even the Scelesti are more sympathetic than that. They see an Inconceivable Heaven of Limitless Possibility as an alternative to "the way things are" and can only get there by shattering the universe with paradox. Granted, they go foaming at the mouth nuts because of these things

>>52807693

By being Scientifically semi-literate?

Those times i do those things do add up, you know. And keeping a running list mentally? Fuggedaboutit.

And as to that formula thing. sure, nestle are liars and shitbags. but i doubt they have a monopoly on formula.

A'ight fuckers I'm probably going to be unemployed in the near future. To celebrate let's do something constructive.

I'm going to design a Legacy roll for parent path

1. moros
2.thyrsus
3.acanthua
4.mastigos
5.obrimos

>>52807903
Thrysus. Their legacies usually suck, so make it good pls.

>>52807924
Fuck it why not.

What order?

>>52807956

Free Council.

Something that shits on the whole "Thrysus Hippie" nonsense.

>>52807995
Ruling arcana?

>>52807995
Shits on how?

>>52808023

Matter

>>52808040

Doesn't go for it. Preferably techgnostic.

Mechanimists?

THE MACHINE SPIRITS SPEAK TO ME

>>52806765
I would say nothing, because the cover doesn't have a soul.

Does it?

>>52807891

I don't see how it's that different, man. All that means is you kinda sold your soul cheap; they get limitless wealth and power for the price of helping enslave vast swathes of humanity, and all you get is some cheap blue jeans.

>>52808069

Already exists. Check out the Neo-Ecologists in Tome of the Watchtower.

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>>52808069
Perhaps they try to become one with the machine to transcend human limitations?

>>52808122

Neo-Ecologists want everything to get overgrown with plant life though. I'm thinking of machine spirits.

>>52808136

Sure. I imagine they'd get along well with transhuman engineers if they go that route.

>>52807903
Its cool anon, i just became unemployed, last day of my two weeks yesterday, i know your pain

Also 6

>>52808122

You don't think the average seer has at least luxury 2?

>>52808191

Sure they do. And the average First Worlder has that compared to people living in Nestle's slave farms on the Ivory Coast. You and I bowed our heads to the elder gods that are multinational corporations, the Seers bowed to the Exarchs.

At the end of the day, we're all whores.

>>52808191
Doesn't any dots in Status: Seers of the Throne already double as dots in resources?

>>52808262

There is no Pentacle in the real world. People can't use magic. It's a false equivalency.

>>52808266

Yep.

>>52808295

Sure there is. Y'know groups like Christian Children's Fund, or FairVote, or corporate accountability advocates? They're our Pentacle. They're the people who work behind the scenes to try and make the world a better place - occasionally while following their own weird personal dramas and obsessions - and usually failing because the bad guys are more powerful.

And, yeah, people can't use magic, but that ain't really necessary. We're talking about bending your knee for a paycheck and shaking hands with evil. We can imagine it because iit exists in our world.

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>>52808154
Just reread up on the Transhuman Engineers I think my initial idea isn't novel enough. Perhaps less deus ex and more adeptus mechanicus?

They believe that technology will be the key to mankind ascension against the exarchs and seek to shepherd the spirits of technology until then?

Say you're a writer for OPP. When you're not dumpster diving for your daily dinner, you're told to Ravnos any clan/tribe/order/whatever you wish to up the ante.

Who do you choose?

>>52808528
Glass Walkers

>>52808471

hell yes.

>>52808353

They don't dominate the MNC's 2-1.

>>52808528

someone who deserves it. Probably a woof tribe chosen at random or the verbena.

>>52808528

Mages, in the most retarded way possible ala Blood treachery to make the Magefags cry.

Favorite character I ever played was a social character based off of Saul Goodman. I was so into the character I just went by the name Saul Goodman. I got so much shit done by using allies, retainers and social shit. And for some reason I had ONE OF THE HIGHEST KILL COUNTS OF ALL THE PLAYERS.

>>52808820
>someone who deserves it.
>Probably a woof tribe chosen at random
Most tribes dont deserve it

>>52808877

they are all too stupid to live

>>52808877
>Most tribes dont deserve it

I would like to read that the garou nation as whole set the fianna to die in one suicidal battle after they realize they were pointless as tribe and they were just the bro tribes of the nation.

They just watch them charge as the morons they are while promising they are right behind them bringing the booze.

>>52808917
Everyone makes mistakes

>>52809006
Fianna did nothing wrong

>>52808528

Tremere. Magic for Mages, Stakes for Vampires.

>>52809044

The same fucking mistake that many times as a contiguous culture?

Still, i'm leaning towards the Verbena. At least the Euthanatos know the danger they risk.

>>52809158
>The same fucking mistake that many times as a contiguous culture?
Like what? It's not Garous' fault the other shapechangers are jerks, and the impergium worked before the war of rage

>>52809044
>Fianna did nothing wrong

They are useless, for a fighter tribe you got the fenrir, for inspirational tribe you got the Silver Fangs. And a for the diplomat tribe the Cogs or even the Shadowlord are better.

They are the tribe of getting drunk, thats their only contribution to the nation. The revised tribebook did nothing to expand them beyond that.

>>52809323
>for inspirational tribe you got the Silver Fangs
Kek, those inbreds live in the past, they are all crazy

And Fianna are the bards, historians, the jack-of-all trades tribe.

>>52809249

Impergium is why they deserve what happens to them, deviant.

>>52809370
>And Fianna are the bards

Fenrir are better at it though, for some reason their gift list makes them very good at diplomats and firefighters or all things.

>historians

You will trust the drunk irish for factual information? And again that niche is better serve by literary any other more trustworthy tribe. CoG, Stargazers or even silent striders.

>the jack-of-all trades tribe.

Cogs are better at it though, gift wise. And as a jack of all trades they suck as their are to close minded.

>>52809453
Impergium was the right mive at the time

>>52809479
Okay, you got me, they are not that useful

>>52809370
>Kek, those inbreds live in the past, they are all crazy

Yes, because the Fianna dont live in the past at all....oh wait

>>52808528
The Mysterium.

Something dark invades the Egregore, twisting and invading the minds and souls of many Mages, passing along their sympathetic links.

The Order is not destroyed but scattered and severely diminished, ancient masters of the Order activating fallbacks and dumping entire libraries of information into surviving member's poor, delicate meatbrains for safekeeping before banishing them from the system.

Many are driven insane, and others suffer extreme trauma from the immediate, and unwilling influx of knowledge. The Mysterium is now a scattered remnant of its former self, those members who were not killed or enslaved by the entity/element are now half-mad, Mad or catatonic.

While those ancient masters of the Order now seek to hunt down their disparate comrades, and forge the Egregore anew. This is not exactly easy, as these living repositories of lore are grand prizes, for Seers and the Pentacle alike.

Meanwhile, Archmasters seek to find out exactly which faggot broke the Pax, so they can dog-pile his ass.

>>52808528
Glass Walkers, they should have been antagonists in the first place

>>52809625
>they should have been antagonists in the first place
This

>>52806765
Under some lore vampires do not have souls and so should be able to embrace a soulless cover.

A demon would have to make a contract to acquire a Mage's awakened soul in order to give his cover an awakened soul.

However, because having a fully controlled mage or vampire would unbalance the game I would make the cover gain free will and self-control if they acquired such powers.

>>52808528
Shadow Lords or Silverfangs. Their niches are way too similar imo.

>>52809757

>Walkers are the main reason the Garou Nation aren't being processed in Autocthonia

Antagonists, indeed

>>52809898
>processed in Autocthonia
What?

>>52809899
The only thing they've released teased a Second Inquisition which has driven into hiding, or destroyed, many elders, leaving the Neonates and Ancillae to run the night.

>>52806653
I played a Beast, anakim with a hunger for punishment, who was basically a cross between Roman from GTA4 and the Juggernaut.

>>52810267
Now I want to play a beast with a hunger for being punished.

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>>52809311
Whoa whoa whoa, what book is this coming out of?

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>>52808869
Ooo, ooo. This sounds fun. Can you tell me more? Preferably a lot more? Favorite played characters always interest me and it sounds like you've got a lot to share.

>>52808154
>Neo-Ecologists want everything to get overgrown with plant life though. I'm thinking of machine spirits.
Pretty sure those guys exist in the Silver Ladder book (Lords of the Inanimate or something?) but they might be Moros+Spirit rather than Thyrsus+Matter

>>52810524
Looks like M20.

>>52810615
Yep, it's M20.

So, what do people here think about the Followers of Set? Just, in general.

>>52808846
>Blood Treachery
>when vampfags infiltrated Ascension
>magefags retaliating by nuking an Antediluvian using Forces 5

kek
oWoD writers at their worst
>muh splat can beat up your splat

>>52811084
The writers didn't even know what they were writing most of the time.

It's only going to get worse with Dracula in-charge.

>>52811084
I don't play Mage but couldn't the Union have just teleported Ravnos into the sun instead of using stupid dragon ball z spirit nuke shit?

>>52811084
It's funny, because had the Union done nothing, Zapathasura still would have been killed (by the third Boddhisatva), and all of the repercussions of the spirit-nuke would have been avoided. Also, in The Last Battleground, the Union feeds Eater-of-Souls the sacrifice it needs for its anchor.

>>52811131
That's actually one of the biggest complaints relating to Week of Nightmares. Zapathasura had no Correspondence Wards to speak of. It should have been over in a second.

Deciding to nuke India for no apparent reason just speaks volumes of how stupid the writing staff was back then.

>>52811164
>>52811131
>>52811166

Ravnos was protected by Plot Armor(tm).

The only way that Ravnos could survive more than a few moments was if the entire Technocratic Union turned into imbeciles and for all their archmasters to suddenly go AWOL.

>>52811164
The third Boddhisatva was pre-destined to win, yeah. You'd think the Union would have been pragmatic about the whole ordeal and just let vampires deal with their own issues.

But nope. Must go full 'Murica' and bomb everything. When they could have just teleported Ravnos into a black hole.

>>52811213
>mages shitting all over destiny

That's actually really fucking funny, to be honest.

So how do you guys handle story merits with exp? I know the game says to just buy them but that seems a bit weird. I mean does it just make it impossible for people to like the character unless he has exp to spare? It runs the other way to, if a player wants to buy say allies in the police despite never seriously interacting with them do they just suddenly start liking him?

>>52811211
The Arch-Scientists were off drinking margaritas over on one of their resort planets, no doubt.

>>52811213
>Must go full 'Murica' and bomb everything

Technocracy, Fuck Yeah!

Why attain Forces 5 if you don't blow shit up big time!

>>52811264
>why even bother to kill a super vampire when you can taste the best drinks the galaxy has to offer

>>52810547
Basically the fun came down to me trying my hardest to be Saul Goodman. Never called my secretary the right name, was a complete jackass to all the other female players and characters. Treated all of the supernatural shit I was seeing with flippant disregard. My first ever roll in the campaign (not to mention my first roll ever since this was my first ever WOD character) was to convinced the manager at a burger king that he put a roach in my food. A lot of the characters skills were put in to talking and all but one of my merits went into contacts, allies and retainers. I had a person for everything.

>>52811295
Why do we fight for mankind?
Not for the glory, the rewards, or the super-science.
But for Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters.

For you see, 10 years ago, this would be Vulgar. And now?
Mmmmmm.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!

>>52811211
>>52811213
I think this goes to show that, in the end, mages really are a bit too powerful by RAW to be that interesting in a game with nonmage splats.

>>52811527
Crossover is a horrible idea anyway.

Idea for a spell. You use temporal summoning to summon all the pain a person has ever felt to the present.

Any idea what practice this would be?

>>52811166
I suppose they could argue that because Chimersty 10 was going fucking wild they wanted to be sure

>>52811067
I think it's hard for making them work with non setites, so they don't come often as player characters

>>52811084
>Forces 5

Forces 4, lol

>>52812212
I had the exact same thought! Which is why I had the idea to write an entire sourcebook specifically for playing Setites, specifically in Requiem 2e or settings like it.

>>52812226
Sssshhhhh, we don't want the vampfaggots even angrier than before.

>>52811744
Unmaking, I can't see any other way to collapse all points in his timeline.

>>52807283

>Nestle and breast milk
Nope. That's a bullshit urban legend. The tiny grains of truth it was built out of are dust beside the moronic legend it spawned.

>Nestle and child labor
Way more complicated then it sounds. Coca plantations in Africa are an ethical fucking nightmare, but it's also were most coca comes from. Nestle, however, should inspect more of it's supply chain then it does.

In the end of the day there is no such thing as ethically sourced chocolate, so boycott it all if you are going to boycott any.

>>52811527
Dude, if people can play Pathfinder and deal with the tiers they can play crossover no problem. Let alone the fact that different characters usually spec for completely different things anyways.
The real problem is dealing with niches. 1 vampire means the party can only operate at night. 1 werewolf means periodic breaks for hunts.

>>52812689
I appreciate what you're trying, but there's no need to pretend just to assuage the vamp and werefags' egos. A single mage WILL make the rest of the party irrelevant, if not at the very beginning then eventually

That said, I think that might have been referring more to the idea that, since a non-Mage can't go up against a Mage without getting turned into a lawnchair, Mages make terrible antagonists in non-Mage games, and non-Mage antagonists are trivial in Mage games.

>>52812402

What exactly is an urban legend? Nestle has been found multiple times over at least two decades to have been found to be deliberately using misleading advertising to convince mothers to use formula over breast milk. The company's made SOME effort to change, but not enough to have not been found guilty of producing advertising materials in violation of WHO guidelines back in 2011.

Also, no-one spoke about it not being complicated; merely that it happens. Children get used like chattle serfs in farms on the Ivory Coast. Nestle profits off that. So does just about every chocolate manufacturer.

Just because they all do it doesn't make Nestle any less of a profiteer off of child slavery. And I ate a Nestle chocolate bar a few days ago. I'm kind of a fucking monster.

>>52812750
Mages can actually make amazing villains in non-Mage games, to be certain.
Villains should be terrifying and dangerous to go up against, and the Awakened are perfect for that.

They also make for great wild cards, the characters you only visit in dire situations. Even a newly awakened Moros will be a highly esteemed individual worthy of a Kindred Prince's attention.

>>52812891
Isn't this what crossover is meant for? To use other splats as NPCs rather than actual PCs?

Balance means little, but they're supposed to used as characters regardless, just not always in the playable sense.

I know Demons and Mummies are also supposed to be in the top tiers for power. But what can they do actually?

>>52812891
You've got a good point. Mages make for great antagonists when you want to force players to think creatively, because the only way they can be engaged is if you catch them completely off guard.

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>>52812982

READ A BOOK U TURD

>>52812750
It's gotten to the point where I can't tell if this is bait or not.

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>>52806065
These young whippersnappers today they just don't get it. The 90s were a great time to be alive, son, no need to feel shame on our behalf. We used to have this thing called fun back then.

It is pretty entertaining to see people cringing at 90s grimderp the same way we used to cringe at 70s renfairderp though.

>>52814267
I miss the 90's. Didnt have any of the bullshit we have today.

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Ever think crossover only sucks because the majority of STs suck at what they do?

>>52814766
Depends. Its either the st can't effectively spotlight the whole group or one splat isnt balanced to play with others. Frankly I'd jus have the whole group be one splat with maybe one mortal or a beast in tow and call it a day

>>52814766
I think it's more the different groups each wanting to drag the game in different directions, while bitching about how other characters are more powerful than them.

>>52814766
For WoD it sucks because the gamelines have wildly clashing themes.

How do I make a VtM character based on the concept of 'vulnerable'? Not just something that can't fight for shit, that's easy. Like vulnerable emotionally, manipulable and/or dependent.

I feel like the game only seems to represent confident monsters. That's basically how vamp fiction works too, so is it actually a case of unwritten rule, or can it work? In a longterm player character context I mean, not looking for "it can totally work, I made a one-scene NPC like that and they died pretty good".

>>52814766
It sucks because balance is out the window and doesn't need to be. If the setting's mages are stronger than everyone else, have their magical powers' dots be in a state of greater advancement compared to other supernaturals in the setting. There's literally no reason to make one powerset's dots worth more per dot than another's; you can represent that imbalance with comparative number of dots just the same with identical fluff result and significantly greater compatibility. Mechanically you could then have motley mixed-game PC parties if you wanted. It even gives opportunity to fix the *fluff* problem of world-changingly powerful entities in one game not making sense because they don't amount to much in a setting with the other games.

>>52814766
The entire system would have to be changed slightly to compensate. Everyone is more powerful than someone or weaker than another, if they made a book of extra rules specifically for crossovers then it'd fix everything.

>>52815161
It kinda means you'll likely play second fiddle to whoever you're dependant on.
That being said, I can see some truly horrifying inspiration in a forcefully emotionally dependant vampire who takes a particular liking to a specific mortal.
Breaking into their house at night, just to wake them up and talk to them.
Then thanking them, re-ghouling them, and draining some of their blood before running off again.

Taking extra-special care to make sure nobody else finds out about your lynchpin.

>>52815322
>It sucks because balance is out the window and doesn't need to be
Except we don't need balance. We never did.
Equality is unsupportive and entirely flawed.

Really, why should vampires, werewolves and fairies match wizards, demons and other such existential horrors?
The balance of the splats just doesn't make sense in that regard, realistically speaking.

Could a Changeling make a contract with the concept of frailties or is that too abstract of a thing?

Could someone provide even a single good reason why balance is a good idea to begin with?

>>52815342
The Crossover Chronicles, perhaps. Or perhaps not.

>>52815484
Common sense seems to the reason for mages being above every other playable supernatural, as would be the same among the others when it comes to crossover in general.

>>52815584
Because not everyone enjoys playing a stick chucker in a world full of continent rearrangers.

>>52811260
I've always required that, bare minimum, some 'off screen' time be spent building up those sorts of merits, limiting spending xp on those things to points in the story where it's plausible to do so.

And in the reverse, the merit represents an active and maintained connection (and a meta-game securing of said connection). You could achieve a temporary version of the merit (such as as a Condition in CofD) through roleplay and successful roles, but you'll have to go through that effort or through other channels to achieve it again at a later date.

>tfw mummy

>>52815736
>mummyfags

You will continue to be a glimmer of nonexistence.

>>52811260
Aquisitions must reasonably be acquirable in-game.
If the cops hate your guys, and you've done nothing towards helping them.
You'd likely only be able to buy the Allies (Cops) merit after some significant downtime, representing your efforts to both bury the hatchet, and get some on your side.

>>52815768

We lost 1/3 of the fanbase now that atamajakki is dead.

>>52815562
Aren't contracts originally negotiated by the True Fae?

>>52816058
Some, others were made by The Lost later on.
There is an entire creation process for making new contracts and courts in Equinox Road.

>>52816058
You can forge your own, it's just pretty difficult.
I think the example that was provided was to forge a Contract with the concept of Darkness, you'd have to kill all of the lights in a city for one night.

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>>52816032

>atamajakki

>>52816071
Heh this could be fun for crossover chronicle. There is 3 dot theban sorcery ritual that summons clouds and storm to obscure the sun. Can you make the contract that you will bloat out the sun and then have your vampire buddy pop his ritual? Or do you have to do this personally?

>>52815614
Then take the continent rearrangers out of your games or bring them down to your stick chucker level. It's childish as fuck to want the devs to make a bunch of changes just so that you can feel just as big and important as the other kids.

If you're playing a crossover game, then what the fuck is wrong with you?

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Could a Gnosis 5 Master take on a Blood Potency 10 Elder?

>>52816304
How are you going to stop all of the street lights?
It's not that easy, man.

>>52816321
Now I've run and played in games where one player is purposefully more powerful but I think expecting people to be ok with it if they even want to play "Wizards, Werewolves, and Vampires" is fucking stupid.

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>>52816372
That would be pretty dicey honestly. Like, obviously if one gets the drop on the other, then they win. So I guess the answer to the "Could" question is yes, since the Mage is specifically setting out on a mission to take down this elder.

If they were equally aware and prepared though I wouldn't want to take a bet on it. There are a few arcana that even a master wouldn't be able to pull an answer out of to the shit that any BP10 vamp will be able to do. If its a master of space or forces it's a game of rocket tag, basically can the elder use ridiculous combat potency to kill them or spells to prevent themselves from being targetable before the mage uses some arbitrary 'lol u die' tier spell on them, like sealing them inside a space with no exit vectors, or causing friction to absorb 100% of all kinetic energy their body generates, incinerating them.

>>52816429
If you really didn't care about the consequences? Destroy the lines leading from the power station.

>>52809898
You don't get browny points because the writers had to insert a big bad to justify why you're the "good guys" in the first place.

They would just work as a more interesting foil if they were the Weaver equivalent to Black Spiral Dancers.

>>52816429
From changeling perspective I don't know. Now dominating power plant workers so they would cause the shortage that would last for few hours would take work but is doable. Better do it on christmas thou when everyone is out of town

>>52816458
What do you want, exactly?

>>52816372
In terms of majority, I am going to give it to the Master. You don't reach five dots of Gnosis by being unaware of your situation(s), or by being unprepared.
There's really not much an Elder is going to do when targeted by an Unmaking "death n' doom" Rote. The ancient vampire is going to get promptly deleted.

>>52816464
The Arcana have much more 'oomph' in comparison to the Disciplines, really. It's going to be a question of whether or not the Methuselah will be able to pump out enough meat to thwart the Master's contingencies.

As in; if the Master is aware of the fight the Elder is going to lose, short and simple. And such "contingencies" will most certainly enable the sorcerer to conduct immediate countermoves to end the apparent threat. Even worse if the mage is proficient in Time/Fate, which will make such surprises & assaults a nigh impossibility.

>>52816372
A master only needs to get an exceptional success* to kill a BP 10 vampire.

>*the chances of getting an exceptional success can exceed 90% if cheesed enough.

>>52806653
>What's your favorite character that you've ever played in a WoD game?
My first Tremere. Literally the youngest and the least powerful charcter in coterie, goes away by his insane decieving skills and occasional use of enchanted bullets for his Colt .44. Managed to put the fear of Tremere into kindred half-century older then him and outlived three casts of his coterie. Used Faux path and tricky rituals to appear insanely more powerful than he actually was. For more than a year only took damage from his own or his superiors' backfiring chemes.

It's weird how I come back to this general after abandoning it like for 2 years and see that the general discussion shifted back to oWoD. I don't mind, since I barely played nWoD, but at the time it was nothing but nWoD in the threads.

>>52817790

Discussion switches to whatever's getting more content at the time. Currently it's WoD. It'll switch back to CofD when one of the 2es comes out or someone decides to power wank again.

>>52817837
>It'll switch back to CofD when one of the 2es comes out or someone decides to power wank again
There's literally no difference, once a 2e splat gets released the magefags are just going to discuss ways on how to fuck it over. It's like Christmas morning for them.

>>52814766
>try to mix themes of overwhelming hubris and mystery with, say, paranoia while going undercover with the rest of humanity and confusion over reality versus horrid fantasy, or the stagnancy of ages and the inevitability of being subsumed by a curse
>whoa it doesn't work?
>hmm, must be because my ST is a blithering retard and not because my brain-damaged ass wanted to play monster mash

>>52817852

Even powerwanking is still CofD discussion. It just also happens to be WoD discussion as well.

>>52817852
>2e Changeling makes a contract with an arcana
>prevents the magecuck from using it
checkmate autists

>>52817982
How does the Changeling even sign its name to a Watchtower? O wait, they can't.

>>52817982
There are scores of things a changeling can't form a Contract with.

The Supernal being just one of them.

>>52818009
>insert obvious contract with your mum joke

>>52818023
You take that back!

>>52816372
>Could a Gnosis 5 Master take on a Blood Potency 10 Elder?

Ummm, yes?

>>52816546

>You don't get browny points because the writers had to insert a big bad to justify why you're the "good guys" in the first place.

Cough cough, Insatiables, cough cough.

---

So, since people are interested in talking about Mages, what is your standard metal image of how a cabal operates? Mine changed radically after reading Sanctum and Sigil and I'm kind of in love with the idea of protocols.

I know creating a nuclear explosion before archmastery is impossible with just Forces alone and you can get around that with clever applications of other arcana.

Can Matter mastery create more 'exotic' forms of Matter? e.g. anti-matter, neutronium, dark matter, etc.

>>52818993

Anti-matter would require Forces Mastery as well, I think; same as creating radioactive material. Dark matter may not be a special class of matter at all. Neutronium... Possibly, yeah. Wouldn't be easy, though, and would probably be suicidal.

>>52819074
You would definitely need Forces shielding to survive the radiation pulse of anti matter annihilation. But anti matter isn't radioactive by itself. A matter shielding spell strong enough to deal with aggravated damage would protect you from annihilation.

To actually transport anti-matter would probably require a clever combination of Space/Matter Bans and/or perfected material containers.

>>52814766
>Ever think crossover only sucks because the majority of STs suck at what they do?

In my experience the problem arise from DMs trying to use one or all of the themes of gamelines in the game at the same time. When is better to pick a theme for your game and adapt the gamelines to it in crossover.

When i run crossover i do "Urban fantasy, pew pew" and make all lines fit to that regardless of their original themes.

>>52818856
>So, since people are interested in talking about Mages, what is your standard metal image of how a cabal operates?

Breakfast club

>Mine changed radically after reading Sanctum and Sigil and I'm kind of in love with the idea of protocols.

I personally hate it, it putting to much formality into something that is strictly informal. Like there is a position for the pizza guy because it could also mean the guy who foots all the bills and somehow both have some sort of camaraderie because they fill the same "role" in the cabal? Seems incredible contrive.

>>52819395

I don't get the impression that cabals are informal. If anything, quite the opposite. Cabals aren't just groups of friends who sit around shooting the shit; they're secret societies formed by Mages to work towards mutual purpose. They share common symbology that they use to empower themselves.

Cabal roles don't have to be formal, but cabals themselves tend to have rules because Mages are inherently untrustworthy bastards and it keeps from there being a free rider problem. And, plus, it's great for players, because it's a built-in IC dispute resolution system.

Good website to show links between character? It's getting to the point that the amount of favours pcs owe other npcs is too big to just keep in my head, so I am looking for some sort of website that would allow me to create easy bubbles of connections. Or should I just use Word or Powerpoint or something

>>52819557
>I don't get the impression that cabals are informal. If anything, quite the opposite. Cabals aren't just groups of friends who sit around shooting the shit; they're secret societies formed by Mages to work towards mutual purpose. They share common symbology that they use to empower themselves.

Cabal are PC party unit and players never think of the rest when making their concept and less on the symbolism. So normally you end up with a cabal compose of an anarchist hacker free council, a high class elitist silver ladder, a trenchcoat katana obrimos Arrow who only lives to fight and a happy go lucky thyrsus who is, or made a waifu or both.

>>52806765
>a human who was created as a component of a demon's Cover gets Embraced, or Awakens, or something?
Nothing special.
They'd just be a Vampire/Mage/whatever who knows the Demon. People created as a component of your Cover, like your spouse, or your child, are treated as normal people for all intents and purposes. Even if you Go Loud, they don't cease to exist.

If you meant what if a Demon's COVER gets Embraced, Awakens, or something, that's a different matter. People would expect you to register as a Vampire/Mage/whatever, meaning you'd need to learn to spoof yourself as whatever, and maybe grab a new embed or exploit to help fool people.

>>52819654

You could try WiseMapping? But a better choice would be something keyed off of Google Drive, like Google Drawing, or Slides. That way, you can share it with others.

>>52819800

That's why you always talk to your players ahead of time and get them all to sit down and discuss this stuff. It can be like pulling teeth if the players aren't that involved, but that's true of everything.

>>52819828
>That's why you always talk to your players ahead of time and get them all to sit down and discuss this stuff. It can be like pulling teeth if the players aren't that involved, but that's true of everything.

Eh, its kinda pointless really with the exception of truly incompatible character concepts each players has their own idea of what they wanna play mage for and trying to shoehorn a needless "cabal theme" for a equally shoehorn mechanic is pointlessly restrictive.

If 1 to 2 player got a tarot symbolism going on, should that be more important than what the rest of the player made because muh symbolism? And thats assuming you are playing with experience people in mage and not the regular player who come to the table barely grasping the setting and wont read a rulebook.

>>52819557
>I don't get the impression that cabals are informal. If anything, quite the opposite. Cabals aren't just groups of friends who sit around shooting the shit; they're secret societies formed by Mages to work towards mutual purpose

This is one of those situations in which the setting tells you something and the actual game experience tells you another. Cabals are just group of friends that sit around shooting spells because they are player party and it need to exist to make the DM running the game less of a problem. So mutual purpose might or might no be the same (normally the latter) and they all have different goals and help each other through either party mentality of Quid pro quo.

The best you can do is read broken diamond and use their social structure as the default instead of the mess that was Sactum and sigil. Also thats an example of a cabal of PCs. A group of mage with nothing in common, including goals, that help each other because party.

>>52819961

Ideally, these things shouldn't be incompatible. That's a part of the point of getting players to talk to one another; to help them find unified symbolism and purpose. It shouldn't be about some people subverting themselves to the whole; it should be about everyone finding a way to have fun together.

Any time I've done it for one of my games, it's gone really well.

>>52820020

I've run games both ways. Running it with figuring out why the cabal actually came together is way better, both for group cohesion and for actually understanding the relationships involved. Actually thinking about the setting kind of demands that they aren't just randos who met at a pub one night.

Seriously, creating foundations is great; both for players and for STs. "Because party" isn't a reason that exists in-setting, so having some dispute resolution system and declared common goal helps, and the game mechanically rewards you for it.

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>The Embrace
>The Becoming
>Creation Rites
Is there any other way to create low-capacity Vampire as an Action? I mean in general, excluding those limited to specific Clan (I'm aware there's some Setite thing), title / sect requirement is ok.

>>52820400
Not sure I follow. Embrace makes a vampire but those other two are vampire citizenship.

>>52806653

I have an odd question, regarding OMage.

The Technocrats are mages, right? Except they're just using technology as their foci. The thing is, are all their gadgets placebos, or do they actually work?

For instance, if a Technocratic agent is battling a hostile spirit - drawing his Quantum Disruptor sidearm, and unloading with Kirlian Rounds - he's actually firing a Forces 2, Prime 2, Spirit 2 rote at his target. That much I can grasp.

But what happens if he dies, and a bystander snatches up his weapon and tries to shoot his target? Does the gun immediately explode in his hand (from Paradox) or does it simply not work?

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>>52820805
Talking Jyhad / VtES. The card interpretation doesn't always reflect the lore precisely, so in this case all three are a way to acquire a new Minion. "regular" Vampire card included for comparison

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>>52820400
Third Tradition: Progeny
Seen mostly in breed and consang boon based decks from my experience.

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>>52821122
>Prince or Justicar
that will do

>another friday
>still no group to play werewolf with

>>52821378
Sad woof.jpg

>>52818993
>anti-matter, neutronium, dark matter, etc.
Realistically someone from the pax comes and slaps you on the wrists for trying.

>>52817991
>How does the Changeling even sign its name to a Watchtower? O wait, they can't.
They don't need to, they could probably just make a contract with one of the Aeons after getting some minor assistance getting to the deepest level of the astral realms.

>>52814766
Mechanically it works fine right out of the box, maybe a touch of fiddling around here and there but nothing major really.
The bigger problem is setting stuff. Themes and even basic setting layouts clash dramatically across the game lines, and each splat brings baggage with them. There are the big things, like social splats generally not liking you running around messing with other supernaturals so they start getting antsy and causing problems, then more practical things like a beat on the team meaning constantly dealing with heros and a demon on the team meaning constantly dealing with angels.

>>52822246
Non-imperial practices don't break the pax. Doesn't mean there won't be fallout figuratively or potentially literal in this case. It just means you'll be dealing with a pissed off councilium instead of pissed off archmages.

>>52822382
I mean specifically about anti matter. Unless you're doing some crazy sci fi stuff, making anti matter just means an immediate explosion that takes out half the continent doesn't it? And thats where some archmage sitting in their golden throne sees that happen and pops back in time to tell you to knock it off.

>>52822424
Depends on how much you make. If you're planning on weaponizing it a little bit goes a long long way (as in micro if not nano grams).

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>>52819395
>Breakfast club

Your entire cabal would be annihilated in any of the Mage games I have played in. There are very good reasons for cabals to act formally and cautiously and if being a mage is a fucking hobby to you, and you come up to anyone or anything more serious about it than you are, then you will find yourself dead before you know it and you'll have deserved it.

>>52822716

Well is good that i dont have to play your shitty mage games then isnt it? I mean i wouldnt want to reduce the seriousness when the pizza guy gains his tittle as lord of the pizza.

>>52822923
You've got it backwards. I am thanking my lucky stars I don't have the misfortune of suffering through a game with an uninvested brainlet.

>the default setting of 2e Changeling is immigrant communities taking over Canada
amazing

>>52823030
>>52822716
>muh srs biznes

>>52822290
>Changeling
>Contract with the Arcana
>contract with one of the Aeons after getting some *minor* assistance getting to the deepest level of the astral realms

Is that all...

>>52823058
>You've seen a variation of this symbol before, but here it is presented in green, and upside down
>WHO FUCKING CARES GREG CAN WE GET TO THE PLOT ALREADY
>Alright. What do you do?
>I WALK IN THE FRONT DOOR A-
>I'm sorry, Brent, you've taken 8 damage points...roll your stamina to see if you're still conscious
>WHAT THE FUCK THIS IS BULLSHIT

What? Oh, it was just a nightmare.

>>52822716
Out of all the splats, Mage is the one that should be taken the least seriously. The very concept is completely clownshoes

>>52823137
I think you've sat through one too many mage supremacy threads.

>>52822716
Explain. Why all the rituals and formal shit?

>>52823128
Its even such a low level mind spell you might almost still be able to offer the mage something in trade! Everyone loves magic items.

What is the theme of mage games? Vampire is all about dark horror shit. How can I make mage feel more serious?

>>52823235
It's about power and privilege. Mages are ordinary people who, through no particular effort of their own, were granted extraordinary power, bordering on godlike. You should be exploring the temptation to abuse their power for their own personal gain, and occasionally fuck your players up with something that totally catches them off guard when they get too comfortable.

>>52823193
You're not all friends by convenience because you each have your own obsessions. So you don't backstab each other or hinder each other's goals you must have rules of treaty, engagement and mediation. As a group, shared symbols and common goals make you more powerful and can help you learn things that coasting through a plot on autopilot would not help you with. Magic uses symbols and sigils and if everyone is just a dicebag then as stated above you are a brainlet who WILL get yourselves killed because successful and dangerous magic is subtle more often than not and you're gonna miss it if you don't speak the language.

>>52823260
Thanks.

>>52823260
It's really easy to forget that many would be mages never make it fully or even partially through their mystery plays or Awakenings because it's only ever mentioned once or twice, but it's not for no reason that they succeed in acquiring those meager power s and then attaining more. It is effort, often lethal effort.

>>52823265
>Magic uses symbols and sigils and if everyone is just a dicebag then as stated above you are a brainlet who WILL get yourselves killed because successful and dangerous magic is subtle more often than not and you're gonna miss it if you don't speak the language.

I think you are confusing not caring about cabal symbolism and being a character. If i were suggesting that people just dont care about their PC concept and just throw dice then party symbolism would be easy, everyone in the party would just pay lip service to it and just reap the mechanical bennefits.

No the problem is that the game suggest a party structure that feels unorganic/forced for what the usual flow of player do with their characters. And also suggest a sort of camaderie that would just not exist.

Example:
"Farseeker
Hunter, middleman and/or resolute shopper, the Farseeker, also known as the Hand, takes care of the cabal’s physical needs. Sometimes this is as simple as being the one who calls for takeout. Other times, taking care of the cabal’s physical needs involves long and complicated hunts for tass sources."

Are you honestly telling me that when 2 cabals got a resources clash they both send the guy who has to find tass resources in dangerous places and the guy who gets the take out to discuss it? And that the tass guy is gonna held the take out guy in some sort of higher esteem because they both share the same "Position".

Cabal "positions" are like any PC party are incredibly fluid. Doorwarden is not a fixed position but when trouble comes knocking everyone is gonna start throwing they mage supremacy at the enemy.

>>52808933
>Fuck i got so bad i am currently studying how to edit PDFs just to make my own rule book of mage with the "good parts" of M20.
If you finish it you'll be a hero to the people.

There is an irony in saying a cabal must function a certain way for pentacle mages.

So are there any rules across any of the various books I could use for running organizations?

>>52823265

>You're not all friends by convenience because you each have your own obsessions. So you don't backstab each other or hinder each other's goals you must have rules of treaty, engagement and mediation. As a group, shared symbols and common goals make you more powerful and can help you learn things that coasting through a plot on autopilot would not help you with.

That sound incredibly boring and restrictive to play in. I just stole a page from DaveB game as is so far the only consilium structure that made sense, considering the piece of shit sanctum and sigil turn out to be.

Consiliums decide things by vote but not everyone's vote has the same value. Mastery of arcanums, order status, Legacy and cabal all make a vote count for more. So this nudge mages to get into cabals just to get their voices heard until they amass enough personal power and experience to not need it anymore.

So you dont have to share the same exact objectives than your cabal mates but as long and they dont oppose yours then you just stick together so your voice counts for more.

>>52823831
>If you finish it you'll be a hero to the people.

So far i am looking is there is a free way to edit the PDFs or just make the whole damm thing on Word.

>>52823895
>That sound incredibly boring and restrictive to play in. I just stole a page from DaveB game as is so far the only consilium structure that made sense, considering the piece of shit sanctum and sigil turn out to be.
Has anyone taken DaveB's game and turned it into a more easy to digest like, suggestions and bullet points or a how too, that isn't 10,000 pages of forum posts?

>>52823946
The books are mostly just a two column layout, if you made it in word, it should be fairly easy to apply some command line magic to convert it into a PDF with borders.

>>52823992
>Has anyone taken DaveB's game and turned it into a more easy to digest like, suggestions and bullet points or a how too, that isn't 10,000 pages of forum posts?

You mean the consilium structure of broken diamond? Because i copy the page in which the herald appeared and the whole thing was explained.

>>52824072
You should do that so I can be lazy and not go to inferior forum sites.

>>52817884

Actually, it wprks better than you might think. I tend to go with the "crowded shadows" model - which means that though you probably won't be playing different splats, you'll have a good chance of running into them.

>>52819557

Diamond, Seers, or Council? The Diamond love their pomp and circumstance, whereas the Council is probably informal. Seers are ultimately in it for themselves.

>>52819961

Most mages really shouldn't be so hung up on that symbolic crap, but Dave has a huge hard-on for it where anyone but the PC cabal is concerned. It seems jury-rigged in their case.

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>>52824106
Read a book nigga.

>>52823819
In a v20 game, would it be more interesting to allow players to form their cabal after the game starts or is it better to give them a cabal from the go?

>>52821378
which werewolf?

Is sympathetic really as overpowered as that one anon thinks it is? You know who I mean.

It seems to me like you could just sever your connections to avoid it, and if they had something that gave them a connection to then you could trace that connection right back to them.

>>52824261
>In a v20 game, would it be more interesting to allow players to form their cabal after the game starts or is it better to give them a cabal from the go?

>v20
>Cabal

I dont really know whether you mean vampire 2th coterie, a mage awakening cabal or a mage 20th cabal.

>>52824289
no
people really overestimate yantras and how they're applicable

>>52824289
>Is sympathetic really as overpowered as that one anon thinks it is? You know who I mean.

I think that anon either confused with or dont know that with a point of reach you can cast at sensory range bypassing the need to aim.

>>52824308
Mage v20 cabal.

>>52824289
>It seems to me like you could just sever your connections to avoid it, and if they had something that gave them a connection to then you could trace that connection right back to them.

Speaking of which is there any tangible consequence to sever one´s sympathetic connection with the rest of ones cabal? I remember in Broken diamond Wolsey sever the cabal sympathetic connection so they dont get tracked by seers (i think?) but then the rest of the party look at him badly and he says "FINE!" and restores his symphatetic connection to the rest of them. I am confused by this, was that a social faux pas and why?

>>52811211

I'm fairly sure with plotdevice in both chimerasry and fortitude would make him a bit more tricky than one would expect, Especially since they probably don't even know his skill set beyond being a Fuckoff strong vampire that is literally causing global phenomena.

Again just because every one here acts like mages are LITERALLY OMNIPRESENT AND KNOW ANY AND ALL THREATS AND HOW TO DEAL WITH THEM AT ALL TIMES, ALONG SIDE ALWAYS HAVING EVERY THING ON HAND THAT YOU NEED TO DO SO. In lore mages simply do not, and if they did then there would be no fucking reason to play the splat because all conflicts would be solved before the problem arose.

Mages are fucking human when it comes down to it, they make mistakes, they underestimate some things, and overestimate others, HUBRIS IS BUILD INTO MAGES AS A SYSTEM.

Hell last time I checked its implied that Ravana is still alive because he jumped out of reality, and how in gods name would a mage know that he could do that, or to what alternate reality he jumped to.

>>52824364
>Mage v20 cabal.

So mage 20th cabal, ok thats a tough one because mage ascension really doesnt consider cabals a thing in the social issues of the traditions. The game recognizes the existence of the cabals but in mage society they dont have a defined place in the politics of the setting. The most micro you can go is the chantry which is the equivalent of a elysium/Sept (2 or more cabals).

There isnt any kind of protocol of how traditions vs cabal influences works out. Or why would they work together as a unit.

So i would suggest that is more interesting for players to form the cabal during game because honestly setting just dont give you a reason for cabals to exist so any cabal (what i mean by cabal is multitradition cabal) is mostly made for personal reasons. Also would suggest to start them at Arete 2 so you can drive home the point that they are new mages.

>>52824531
Thanks!

>>52824520
>Again just because every one here acts like mages are LITERALLY OMNIPRESENT AND KNOW ANY AND ALL THREATS AND HOW TO DEAL WITH THEM AT ALL TIMES, ALONG SIDE ALWAYS HAVING EVERY THING ON HAND THAT YOU NEED TO DO SO. In lore mages simply do not, and if they did then there would be no fucking reason to play the splat because all conflicts would be solved before the problem arose.
You don't need to be omnipresent (which is actually Space 9 btw) to detect any conceivable threat, as that's entirely the purview of two of the nine Spheres.

>Hell last time I checked its implied that Ravana is still alive because he jumped out of reality
Nope. That's just an option to choose. Nothing set-in-stone about it.
The fact remains that the Union killed one of the founders of Fortitude using 4- 5 dots of Forces, something beyond ludicrous. You don't fuck with the Awakened.

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Would it be possible to add some VtES links to the pastebin? Maybe to the VEKN site or Secret Library? There are at least three or four somewhat regular posters in the general and it'd be great if the game had more exposure. The Anthology set is coming out soon, and proxies were recently made legal to play, so it's not like there's nothing happening with the game either.

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How would a non-mage go about defeating this beefy fucker?

>>52824405
No clue, but if I were to guess I'd say it's a symbolic thing.

>>52824935
>No fate, 1 time, No useable amounts of Space
>Only 5 points of armor
>The answer, as this is a 1e text, is 'Sniper' with a mere space 2 matter 2 you get a nice space windows to snipe from the safety of your home to somewhere you know he'll be.

>>52825025
>The answer, as this is a 1e text, is 'Sniper' with a mere space 2 matter 2 you get a nice space windows to snipe from the safety of your home to somewhere you know he'll be.
Meant to say 'if you can find Other mages that don't like him'.

>>52824935
>Gnosis 7
>Second degree Master
>and more
>and also a Seer

I would advise any non-Mage and even most Mages to steer clear of this guy.

>>52825025
He has three dots of Fate, dumbass. Armor is irrelevant when his Arcana is capable of boosting it to boot.

>>52825025
>>52825038
Oh also carve his bane symbolically into your bullets.

>>52825025
>No Fate
Guy has Fate 3. He also has Exceptional Luck as a Rote.

>>52824935
>How would a non-mage go about defeating this beefy fucker?

I don't think you conceivably can. The guy has all ten Arcana in his grasp, and a single dot in Time is enough to keep him aware of ambushes, even snipers.

>>52825112
Ambush only lets you get a 2 point shift to the Snipers roll, he doesn't have enough to do anything about it but go prone. As this is 1e He has no reflexive way to do much else. He also can't suspend spells.

>>52824935
Don't even fucking try.
Or a Death-Twilight active nuke.

>>52825152
That's not what I was getting at, not at all. More so he will be aware of the situation before it even happens.
Most likely he will be duly up keeping contingencies by then.

Using 2e mechanics the guy is even more formidable.

>>52825197
How would he even know about it? None of the first edition spells he has would let him do that, He can't even look into the future or go back in time.

With 2e You are just fucked because he's got 12 dice roll for Unmaking.

>>52825232
Not the relevant anon, but one does not need Time to be sufficiently prepared, you realize.

Well i would suggest a werewolf new moon in Urshul. New moon allows it to teleport back to you and the Urshul form allows you a power that is literally "snapping at ones hell" to break ones leg/use the bane. And then Gauru chomp with the strength gift.

>>52824935
>Fate 3
You can't even surprise him.
>Death 4
He has servants watching his every back
>Mind 5
Game over

>>52824935
>forces 2
convince him to go parachuting and switch his chute for a bag filled with confetti

>>52825348
He's a 1e character with no ability to cast outside his sensory range or suspend spells.
Also I'm pretty sure 1e Fate doesn't do that.

>>52824935
>non-mage
If we go by 2e the "beefy fucker" is nigh unbeatable any anything other than another powerful mage.

>>52825331
>Well i would suggest a werewolf new moon in Urshul. New moon allows it to teleport back to you and the Urshul form allows you a power that is literally "snapping at ones hell" to break ones leg/use the bane. And then Gauru chomp with the strength gift.

Crushing blow to wreck his defense. Primal strength to hit harder. Berserk Might to resist the first spell, Slaughter for more damage and finally Incite fury, if and only if the DM ruled that berserk mages cant concentrate to cast.

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>>52825025
>>52825038
>>52825152
>>52825232
>>52825384

>b-but guys!
>muh 1e

>>52825487
I'm not the one who posted a stat block that has nothing to do with the current rules.

>>52825487
It feels as if the above anon knows what he/she is talking about, yet from my experiences the above mage (Mr. Seer) in-question is not going be taken down even when applying to first edition.

Really, mages were disgustingly overkill when they abused extended rituals.

>>52824286
apocalypse or forsaken, even though I haven't played a campaign of either yet I do know a bit more about F2e because I actually read the core book and have listened to a few actual play podcasts in F2e, I've only skimmed W20

>>52825557

Even a braindead autist is able to convert such a stat block over to 2e, buddy.

>>52825574
And i'd agree if he had one more dot of time and space, but without those he's lacking a lot of the utility, like being able to cast when you can't physically see someone.

>>52825594
The question is about a 1e stat block for a non-mage game. Why would someone assume the question is about some conversion rules that don't exist when no one said that?

>Sensory Range
Has there been dev commentary on this, but going strictly by this definition, couldn't you also cast on people you can hear, or smell?

>>52825594
Since its so easy would you post the converted Legacy you made?

>>52825614
I don't know, his Arcana (all 10, really?) suggests his style of combat would be self augmentation rather than what you're suggesting. His Legacy only affirms this.

>>52825634
Yes, you can cast through your Familiar for instance.

>>52825652
Which of those augmentation spells would actually help? Because he can't get any more armor and the only other resistance to a gun is health levels, which he also can't get more of.
They also once again, require him to actually operate only in sensory range.

>>52825628
Most everyone here has been running with 2e as the frame.

That you are the only one doing otherwise surprises me.

>>52825729
Convinced it's a copout, personally. Or maybe it's an ancient magefag clinging to first edition.

>>52825761
>Or maybe it's an ancient magefag clinging to first edition.
Or maybe I'm just too lazy to read the new book properly and only know a stupid annoying amount of an outdated rule set. (That for some reason people in my area won't let go of).

>>52825682

You're seriously underestimating first edition. I can't express this enough. Why do you think they removed spell extensions?

>>52825594
You could sure.
It would be a retarded idea because of how much changed between 1e and 2e. Just throwing the same numbers in the same places breaks shit all over the place.

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I'm currently in the process of going through Masquerade and Requiem books, ripping what artwork I find to be at least somewhat decent looking. Obviously, not everyone will have the same taste, but I do try to avoid the blatantly shit stuff. I'm doing this mostly for my own amusement, but I figure some folks here might want that as well. So would you prefer it be dumped in an imgur or postimg gallery (the latter of which doesn't resize your shit, hence superior) or an archive file uploaded to Mega?

>>52825648
One anon actually has converted a bunch of Legacies to 2e, including Uncrowned Kings. He posted a pdf here of all the Legacies he converted.

>>52825896
Which ever has best resolution

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>>52825938

Well, I'm ripping all of this in .png and imgur is a pile of shit when it comes to quality images. I think it resizes everything over 2-3 MB.

>>52824405
Sympathetic connections represent your relationships. If you destroy the connection to your best friend for example then you both will feel less connected and will care less about each other until you make efforts to reconnect.

>>52826048
They don't have to be reciprocal.
A stalker has a connection to his stalkee.
But if they have no clue about their existence, they won't have one back.

>>52826048

Thanks anon.

Reminder that ghouling someone is not an act of love.

>>52826158
>Reminder that ghouling someone is not an act of love.

Thats true, ghouling and flesh-crafting is the true sign that a vampire loves his new possession.

>>52824935

He would just Unmake you. It would be a cakewalk for him to garner an Exceptional Success.

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>>52826158

What if you're a Daeva?

>>52815727
>>52815832
Hm. It seems to play a bit funny but I could see how it ends up working out most of the time. One of my players likes playing characters who have less direct upfront power and more on the social side.
Would you rate things like allies based on their power? Like allies in say a werewolf pack can go farther than allies in something like blue collar workers.
Also a much less important question. The game gives some advice for renaming merits to have them represent something else, has anyone ever done this to any serious degree?

>>52825833
So you derailed a post because of your own stupidity then.

>>52826279
Daeva are even more unlikely to do anything out of actual love.

>>52825879
If we're going by Arcana and capability? No, it's not hard at all.

>>52826358
Nope, I answered first, and about 1e, the rest of you derailed the thread.

>>52826404
I fail to see how answering first spares you from your apparent retardation.

>>52826371

Why?

>>52826371
This is so fucking wrong. The Daeva are all about obsessive intimacy. They literally can't indulge from a person more than once without risking it.

>>52826420
I don't think the anon you're replying to has even played first edition, despite proclaiming the opposite.

>>52826445
That's not love, fucktard.

>>52826432
Daeva are all about chasing human pleasures while never achieving satisfaction of meaningful happiness.

>>52826594
Is anything love? Nope. Just a chemical reaction.

Stay lonely.
Focus on science instead.

sigh
>pack member attracks evil people in our "lair"
>We were arguing after we went back and we suddenly feel a presence
>They are two, and feel menacing.
>We didn't really plan this, so:
>I go, break the wall to attack the one that isn't facing the door, taking him by surprise
>The fomori takes me surprise by striking from above, but I am defending myself.
>One of the other guys just run straight to the other guy, heavily armed in Lupus, the other guy in Crinos backing him up.
>The Crinos suddenly sees me against this "transformed" fomori and come to get me and help, leaving the poor Lupus alone.
>The Lupus takes a lot of shoots, receiving shittone of damage
>Meanwhile we kill the other Fomori, and sensing the poor Lupus we come to his rescue, >I use all my Fury trying to get to him in time, but its not enough.
>The Lupus is there, dying, turned to Humid, his natural form.
>The Fomori tells me that he would spare the Homid if we just walk back to the house, I try to play his game while the Crinos just gets to his back trying to disarm him by surprise.
>After reaching him, they do the same amount of successes and the last action is decided by Initiative.
>The fomori rolls 11, the Crinos 10
>He kills the poor Lupus
>We get mad as fuck, trying to kill the lasting fomori, I had to reach him, he uses powers and keeps on shooting,making the Crinos Incapacitated and basically dying.
>I need to decide what to do, after giving first aid to the poor Crinos, I was thinking about going to the Umbra, but the master makes me roll an intelligence test and make me notice that the Spirits are there so they would basically kill me on the spot, so I would need to distance myself.
>We do a pause, while we do it I think about what to do, the alternatives where two, seeking our totem in the umbra, or searching for a vet while intimidating him and stuff.

Continues

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If a Mage makes raising his Wisdom an Obsession, in accordance with the rules, does he get Arcane Beats for going out of his way to not commit crimes against his Wisdom?

>>52826773
If it displays a concerted attempt to act in accordance with Wisdom? Sure.

It's one of the reasons I usually rush to Gnosis 3, and then specify his second Obsession is becoming more Wise. That way I can get benefits for being a moralfag, and not necessarily ever have to actually increase my character's Wisdom, putting those beats into Gnosis instead.

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>>52826701
>We're back, I am thinking still, and the players are pushing me to choose the Umbra, while I noticed that the master rolled two dices while I was away
>As a note, I was thinking I was facing Black Spiral dancer before the ST made me roll, so I was really confused they were "just" Fomori able to turn.
>I give some distance, create a pool of water and enter the umbra with the Crinos now-turned Lupus in my arms, trying to save him.
>As I enter the umbra the two fucking fomori spirits are there and he doesn't need to describe them as the spirits of pure rape to make me fly away (We have wings in the Umbra)
>Rolls initiative, I am last for fucks sake, make them deal only letal damage, because I had to turn myself as Homid to give first aid
>I soak almost all the damage of the first blow.
>I don't survive the second one
>We both die, as the ST describes how they just maim my arm off and as I bleed to death they just start dining on my form.
>It's not a TPK tho, the last pack member wasn't there, because he was naked and didn't want to enter the physical realm while being naked, so he just went to the Caern instead as we die
>A part from being an extra man, he's also the party "healer"
>mfw he survived because he was naked
>We have a funeral as heroes, our heads found impaled by our totem, the other Lupus body still there
>We just end it there for now, and decide that we will continue it after we will create new characters,
>I'm depressed as fuck, we ask some "behind the scenes" questions he could ask
>After an hour I'm still thinking, what if I went to search for a vet instead, with like 15 minutes of time before the Crinos would die?
Continues.

>>52826773

How can you possibly not commit sins against Wisdom when you're obsessed with killing The Batman?

>>52826923
>I could've just pick up one weapon from the Fomori, then go search for a vet, going first as an emergency without caring, then if the vet would tell something I would just intimidate it with the weapon, if he would try something funny at all I would just have turned Crinos and cause delirium while trying to operate the guy in a desperate attempt after turning back to normal.
Was this other strategy too much farfetch'd?

>>52826632
By that logic so is being lonely & focusing on science.

Ergo focus on whichever makes your chemical reactions feel best, so burn it all down and go bone a bunch of hookers.

>>52825349
>forces 2
>convince him to go parachuting and switch his chute for a bag filled with confetti

In 2e, Forces 2 can render a mage immune to kinetic damage or shield against gravity.

A Gnosis 7 mage with Matter 5, Forces 2 and Space 2 would scoff at the mere suggestion that he might require a parachute.

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>>52821175
Nos and Brujah are also good picks since they have access to the lowest cap Princes in the game.

>>52826980
>Space 2
Where'd this conversations extra space dot come from?

>>52827070
Aren't you the guy who mistook Dispater for having no dots in Fate?

Why are you even making a jest.

>>52827070

Typo, only Space 1,

However, the point still stands, any attempt at physical combat with this mage is little more than suicide by Wizard.

>>52827123

inb4 "muh 1e"

>>52826980
>>52827123
It's not like second edition is even a requirement here, as going by first edition Spence would still take the majority of combat encounters.

Even worse if he uses extended shenanigans.

>>52826632
Our entire existence takes place inside our brains. You might not even be real. You could just be some figment of my psyche talking to itself.

Or maybe I'm a figment of your psyche, and I don't exist beyond this post? Not like you could know. And if you try to find out if I'm real or not through some theoretical hacker skills maybe that'll all just be your brain fabricating my existence as it goes along.

>>52827172

I'm the only conscious one here.

>>52827197
I agree.

>>52826980
no matter what the outcome is, a mage parachuting with a bag of confetti instead of a parachute would still entertain me.

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Mages seem a lot more powerful in 2e compared to 1e.

I thought they were supposed to be nerfed?

>>52827286
Why would they be nerfed?

>>52827286

You thought wrong

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>>52827286
>Nerfed
Then you massively misunderstand the nature and purpose of the update.

They went about 2e with the intent of removing unnecessary roadhumps, ensuring the magic system was as internally consistent as possible, introducing more interesting use of paraphanalia such as yantras, and all around making the magic system smoother and less reliant on fiat.

>>52827310
oh I dunno maybe because they were monsters in 1e?

>>52827326
Compared to who?
Vampires? Werewolves?
Who gives a shit?

Mages are for Mage games.
Mosquitos and puppers are for their own games.

>>52827326
>mages
>monsters

Not even. They were monstrous because of how strong they were, and still are.

>>52827326
Yeah.

And?

>>52827351
>Who gives a shit?
I give a shit? I have crossover before and they shit on everybody else, including vampires, werewolves and more.

>>52824935 is just an example. How do youeven fight that person?

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>>52827387
>Crossovers
Then you have no basis for your bitching.
The devs themselves have stated that the purpose of game-line compatibility is for the primary purpose of having non-main-splat NPCs.
Not for playing a Monster Mash and expecting each group member to be comparable to one another.

And then turning around and complaining that one of the weaker splats, which are designed to take on weaker adversaries, are not able to take on one of the single strongest Mages you'll ever likely see or encounter?

>>52827387
>How do you even fight that person?

Generally, confronting Masters is a bad idea.
Experienced wizards being terrifying opponents is an entirely 'working as intended' ordeal, anon.

>>52827387
>How do you even fight that person?
Dude's a Gnosis 7 second-Degree Master working for the fucking Seers of the Throne with 28 Arcanum dots (to a starting character's 6) and an attribute at 11.

"Fighting" him is not an option, even for most Mage groups.

>>52827387
>How do you even fight that person?

He's not an "average" Wizard. He's a Gnosis 7 second degree master with proficiency in all 10 Arcana. He's a supernal badass, and someone feared even by other powerful mages.

Consider him the biggest of the big bads a PC could face. If they plan on fighting him, they best be friggin powerful and have a very good plan.

>>52827353
>Mages are monstrous because of how strong they were, and still are

Indeed,

>>52827387
These games aren't made to accommodate crossover.

Hey, here are some things I've always wondered: What reasons do you give for members of these insular societies to be associating with each other? Why do you think that a splat should be heavily reworked just to make your games easier to run? And what do your vampire players do while things are happening during the day?

>>52827167
>Even worse if he uses extended shenanigans

I believe "Shenanigans" is a level 10 Imperial Practice, and beyond the ken of normal mages.

>>52827522

Crowded shadows model, and what burns up in sunlight is a vampire's powers, not the vampire themselves.

>>52827570
So if you're willing to make your own changes to make splats viable in your crossover games, why do you need Mages to be nerfed in official material? Just do it yourself.

>>52827630

oh i'm not that guy that's just how I do it

It's also worth mentioning the guy is described as "Mamon's Champion", has the goal of propelling the Lesser Ministry of Manon to the status of a Greater Ministry, and has Seers of the Throne Status 5.

This dude is the leader of a motherfucking Lesser Ministry.
He's likely on the cusp of the Archmastery he would need to make progress on such a goal.
Which is in keeping with the Canon instability of the Hegemony, and the probability that The Ministry of Mamon will surpass it.

>>52826158
I'd argue that it's not inherently an act of love, but for someone who's both submissive and inclined to enjoy the abilities of a ghoul, it could be.

Maybe Bloodlines is skewing me, I admit, since the PC ghouls Heather completely by accident and only knows her as a person when she's already blood bound, but I don't think it's impossible. Although it'd be more equitable to love another vampire and enter into a mutual bond.

>>52828074
Heather Poe was a fucking zombie when she got ghouled.
It is NOT love, no matter what you think. It is imprinting a false set of emotional intensity.

Really, the Kindred are the lousiest partners one could ask for, defying the cultural cliché of today.

>>52828099
Personally, I think that Heather's going through a sort of honeymoon phase in the time that you know her. There are other ghouls, like Mercurio and Romero, who are much steadier despite their own bonds; I think that Heather will eventually start thinking about things other than the PC again.

>>52828099
>Really, the Kindred are the lousiest partners one could ask for
Vampires have feelings too, you insensitive fuckbag! They can cry just like any human and long for affection.

How would the Daeva not make the perfect partners, by the way?

It's about time we all acknowledged that Anne Rice is the one responsible for how gay vampires have become.

>>52828158
It depends on what you're looking for. For casual sex, definitely. For emotional intimacy... well, the answer to this question is different depending on whether you're a mortal or not. If you're not, their clan weakness doesn't apply, so there are no special concerns aside from the fact that they frequently have issues with healthy displays of emotion, being so attuned to manipulating people through immediate urges and such, so getting past that can be a challenge. If you are mortal... they'll be obsessive over you if they drink your blood; this'll hopefully be a positive obsession if the relationship works out, so you might only have to worry about some clinginess, but it can go bad, and if it does, you're probably dead. And then they might Embrace you out of guilt.

>>52824935
Resources 5 Status 5 (Seers) Gnosis 7 2nd degree master w/ access to all 10 arcana.

This nigga is David Xanatos crossed with a WMD.

>>52827007
This only works when the rest of the table is Sabbat / Unaligned. Otherwise he becomes >Calebros, Please Steal my Title
You can't even move the Title to your own later on (unless Lasombra are involved)

>>52828158
>Vampires have feelings too

Vampires *had* feelings when they were people and alive. Regardless, now they are just undead, misery-producing parasites that should be rendered into ash as a public service.

-Any Obrimos

>>52828523
>Vampires *had* feelings when they were people and alive.
Hello, person locked into 1e.

>>52828523
More like
- Any Thearch

>>52828523
Truly, it is a mercy.

-Fellow Obrimos

How old would the common Archmage be upon successfully completing the Threshold Seeking, you think?

The way Idola was briefed (pg. 59) suggests that 46 is relatively young for an Archmaster, so I'm guessing most of them must be middle-aged to elderly / venerable in appearance.

>>52828768
>in appearance.
I feel like given the level of power they are wielding at that point their appearance might be more than a bit of a miss from their actual age.

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>>52828460
If you're using Third Tradition for bloat, Nikolaus is probably the first vampire you want to influence out and use like Grooming the Protege to get the Calebros out later. There's quite a few pretty good high-mid cap vampires in the Nos G1/G2 crypt that work well with that strategy imo.

>>52828768
I can't picture any single Archmage being under the age of forty, to be honest. There are a minor few exceptions, sure. But still.

WoD isn't anime with planet-nuking children running around, Supernal magic can take decades upon decades of, well, dedication.

>>52828768
I would argue it's impossible to generalize. Considering the wacky hijinks arch masters can get up to concepts like death, causality, and age become relative.

One of the example archmages from imperial mysteries was literally immortal. Or another from 2e who shattered his timeline so he exists at all ages simultaneously within his chantry.

>>52828850
Anon is referring to the physical age at which they become what they are, not their actual chronological age.

>>52828884
Not the same anon but I made the same mistake. I'd say most hit threshold sometime around middle age 40s-50s

>>52828768
Archmastery is something most Mages only pursue after becoming tired of the limitations of their powers (amongst other rationales, obviously). Which would likely require 2nd to 3rd degree mastery, or extreme interest in a single Arcanum.

I would imagine the youngest Archmaster would likely be in his late 30s. I wouldn't think that there would be too many venerable Archmasters though. After a certain point, additional time doesn't exactly help your chances of achieving the pure inspirational breakthrough you need to complete your first Imperial practice.

So I'd haphazardly put the age-range of successful Threshold seekers at anywhere from 35-70. You've also got to consider the attrition rate for younger, hotshot Archmasters. It takes a certain kind of acceptance and Wisdom to be a young Archmaster who's blasted his way back into the Supernal, only to see the truth of the matter and shift gears down into the long, hard struggle of the Ascension War.

>>52828768
Becoming an Archmage is extraordinarily difficult, so most Seekers are probably well aged.

Reaching Mastery in a single Arcanum can take well over a decade.

>>52828923

Except all those pesky pcs who reache mastery in less than a year.

>>52828768
>common Archmage
No such thing exists. I know that sounds like a dumb non answer but really, archmages are so rare there really isn't some common thread linking them. One might get there only on their deathbed, another might be some prodigy who gets there by 30 something, and likely has tales told of him being the reincarnation of an Oracle.

>>52828853
Yup despite being shoehorned into the single stereotype of ugly sneak mofo in the RPG, the Nosferatu are incredibly versatile in the card game - bloat, political superiority, combat superiority, and stealth-bleed are all legitimate option for them.

>>52828768
We don't have much to go on for such a question, but I imagine DaveB would know. Not that he would bother with this cesspool.

>>52828915 seems to be closest to clarity on the matter.

My head cannon is that the stronger they get the harder it is for an archmage to care a la Dr. Manhattan. The truly ancient and powerful probably chill in their chantries unwilling to engage in the futility of the ascension war and unwilling to ascend and spend an eternity struggling against the exarchs.

>>52828768

I would love official artwork on Kadmon the Gardener. Guy is my favorite Seeker. I picture him in his mid to late 40s.

>>52829028
>Not that he would bother with this cesspool.

Careful. He's probably watching us right now from his Golden Road.

I had an idea for a special effect with the Lure of Flames Thaumaturgy power: magically moving "unreleased" flame as a tool for intimidation. It won't actually burn, but I can see, say, a Tremere spinning ribbons or whips of fire around a vampire prisoner to terrify them. Path levels 3 and above should be able to produce enough fire to do that.

>>52828915
>It takes a certain kind of acceptance and Wisdom to be a young Archmaster

So, Archmages in their thirties (late) are few and far between when compared to the rest. Seems fair, especially if they have the Wisdom to back it up. They seem more like prodigies to me, rather than the average Seeker-to-be.

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◊‡vampbro‡◊

>>52828540
>Vampires *had* feelings when they were people and alive.
>Hello, person locked into 1e.

I'm well aware of the change in perspective in 2e.

I simply don't buy into the leech propaganda.

If vampires truly had human feelings, they would acknowledge their monstrosity, and then greet the sun willingly at the next dawn.