Why does GMs hate paladins? It's seems that other classes

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>>52775713
>Nobody likes christfags
>Nobody likes holier-than-thou hypocrites
>Nobody likes party's nannies
>Nobody likes black-and-white morality autists
Take your pick.

>>52775776
Is this like Aku's telling child stories?

Lawful Good alignment is one of the more "headcanon-prone" branches of the alignment tree. You have people who state it's about being good and staying true to your own personal code of law, people who say it's about being good and obeying all lawful authorities, people who say it's about promoting good by way of law, and probably a dozen other variants I can't be bothered to think of. Needless to say, if the player has one interpretation of lawful good and the DM has another, conflict happens. This is especially problematic because of people having a tendency to conflate Lawful Good with Lawful Neutral, and thusly have supposedly lawful good characters believe simply "Law = Good".

Other classes with alignment ties are usually more broad in aspect. Being Lawful or Chaotic is a lot broader and easier to define, more or less, than Lawful Good is. The one other class that had similar amounts of alignment pain, the Druid, actually underwent a revision from 2e (where it HAD to be True Neutral - and True Neutral was defined in the most *ridiculous* fashion) because WoTC realized just how stupid its original alignment ties were.

Players of Paladins are well-aware that their grasp on their powers, and thus their ability to not be sub-par fighters, depends on cleaving to their alignment. Thusly, many players over-emphasise in order to avoid falling... and tend to take it into directions that just tick off the DM and/or the rest of the party. Hence the "Paladins Suck!" meme that keeps bubbling around D&D and, to an extent, Pathfinder.

As part of the "Killer DM" school of thought, some DMs enjoy puzzling out ways to cause Paladins to fall, either as a punishment for a bad paladin player, as a way of generating a backstory for a fallen/anti-paladin villain, or just for the fun of it.

>>52775858
The existence of a whole other class that exists to be defined as "evil counterpart of the paladin" gives further fuel for the falling. Monks, Barbarians and Druids don't have antithesis classes, so their ability to fall is further ignored by comparison.

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>>52775776

> Crusaders =/= Paladins

>>52775713
Try being a ranger.

>go adventuring
>stop to camp
>decide I want spotlight time for once
>game is always focused on other characters' autistic tendencies
>finally I get a moment in the spotlight
>start rolling Survival checks to find clean water
>characters just cast Create Water
>explain that that is the equivalent of tap water and I have found delicious Poland Springs water with my 28 Survival check
>"lol it doesn't specify what kind of water in the spell so it can be any kind I want"
>finewhatever.jpg
>go hunting so we can have fresh meat
>they just eat their trail rations which they don't even keep track of

Ranger seriously needs to just be deleted from the fucking game at this point. The only way they could even keep it relevant was by giving it spells. The 4e ranger was actually a really strong class, I don't know why decided they had to make it shitty again in 5e.

I don't think rangers have it quite as bad as paladins but I'd postulate they have it second-worst, of all the classes.

>>52775776
>Give the living prosperity by tyrannizing the dead.

lolimthenecromancerandidindunuffinwrong.jpg

>>52775973
>tyrannizing the dead
Skeletons and zombies are just meat/bone puppets animated by negative energy. There's literally nothing wrong or evil about creating them beyond hurting your fee-fees.

I've brought this up a couple times before, but the "lol Paladin falls" stories feel even weirder once you consider that the Druid is under similar moral restrictions for keeping their class levels:

>Ex-Druids
>A druid who ceases to revere nature, changes to a prohibited alignment, or teaches the Druidic language to a nondruid loses all spells and druid abilities (including her animal companion, but not including weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She cannot thereafter gain levels as a druid until she atones (see the atonement spell description).

You'd think over the years we would have heard dozens of stories about shitty GMs contriving asinine explanations for why the Druid using utensils or sleeping in a house or a million other mundane things constitute "failing to respect nature" and forcing them to atone, but it's always the Paladin.

>>52776230

Atheism attracts assholes who want to seem smart. What better way to show off how smart you are than masterminding the plot of a DnD game and antagonizing your friends with clever ploys?

>>52776195
dependsonthesetting.png

Some settings have consorting with negative energy as an Evil act on its own. Turns out, if that's a stain on the soul, then animating the dead definitely is. In other settings, this of course isn't the case and your statement stands true. All depends.

>>52776195
It's a killer meat/bone puppet that murders the nearest living creature as soon as you aren't actively controlling it. Most would find the distinction to be relevant.

>>52776230
Or clerics.......or rangers

>>52776372
Factory machines can kill you too, if you stick your head in them.

>>52776442
It's more like factory machine that gets up and murders you when the wifi goes down.

>>52776463
So, like a nuclear power plant. Got it.

>>52775776
>Another "I'm a good necromancer my dark art is misunderstood" story

As per the rules of Animate Dead, undead creatures become uncontrolled after 24 hours if the spell caster does not renew the spell.

This is the story of a short-sighted idealist traveling the countryside and spreading an art that produces ravenous, instinctually murderous, flesh-eating zombies that will immediately revert to their base instinct of indiscriminate murder the moment any of the countless disciples he's raised miss their regular check-ins or - inevitably - die themselves.

He was still a menace, his grand plans were still irresponsible, and he still needed to be stopped. What a dumb story.

>>52775713
>>52776271
Paladins are my favorite class, and I honestly think that a lot of this attitude stems from how religion is perceived.

Oftentimes, a lot of shitty paladins and people who hate paladins tend to share a dim view on religion. They view them as the worst embodiments of religion (Christianity in particular) and as such have the concerns that >>52775776 has.

So when a shitty paladin's played, they see it as an excuse to be a no-fun-allowed jackass instead of a person constantly striving to better themselves despite their comrades and their own nature. Also, GMs who are anti-Christian and view morality as relative consider paladins, no matter what they do, to be an extension of the beliefs they're against. (even though it's a fantasy world) The fact that the paladin has the equivalent of a Kick Me sign is, IMO, what really gets them targeted by a GM.

I really like how the 5e paladins are practically free from a nebulous alignment restriction in favor of more cut-and-dry rules that define who they are better than the whims of a GM.

That said, in both current campaigns I'm playing paladins, and in both I'm usually serving as the party's conscience (and often straight man.) And really, I wouldn't have it any other way.

>>52776517
Which game is this?

>>52775713
just play evil if you want to be evil. being a decent human being isn't that fucking hard.

>>52776517
>As per the rules of Animate Dead, undead creatures become uncontrolled after 24 hours if the spell caster does not renew the spell.

Is that how it works in 5e or something?

>>52776517
You must be fun at parties

>>52775776
>Taught random peasants how to raise dead for fighting
>Completely stripped the farmer of his societal worth with free labor
>Displacing established aristocratic government because "muh democratic liberty"
>Leaving behind democracies made up of barely educated mooks who know necromancy

What a stupid story, regardless of the method, he could have used golems and he's still would have been a short sighted asshole. In what noble bright world would there not be an army of monsters or whatever in this guys wake wiping out these democracies or a dozen half descent students of his becoming despots advocating genocide since 90% of there population is now completely disposable corpse fodder waiting to swell their armies and coffers?

>>52776517
>This is the story of a short-sighted idealist traveling the countryside and spreading an art that produces ravenous, instinctually murderous, flesh-eating zombies that will immediately revert to their base instinct of indiscriminate murder the moment any of the countless disciples he's raised miss their regular check-ins or - inevitably - die themselves.
>He was still a menace, his grand plans were still irresponsible, and he still needed to be stopped.

>anon accidentally describes progressives and liberals

>>52778387
>>Taught random peasants how to raise dead for fighting
>>Completely stripped the farmer of his societal worth with free labor
>>Displacing established aristocratic government because "muh democratic liberty"
>>Leaving behind democracies made up of barely educated mooks who know necromancy

Ya, what could possibly go wrong?

>>52778387

Lol it's a game, not a story about the woes of socialistic values.

>>52778100
>be paladin
>be decent human being
>see an old lady trying to cross the street
>go help her
>suddenly the devil appears and challenges you with battle
>finally sends him away
>fall because the old lady had to cross without help

>>52778446
Then why is that post not a game and instead an entire story about how necromancy solved the world with socialistic values?

>>52778520

Beeecause it's about a game. In which those things did happen. In which it seemed to work okay before adventurers came along.

We both read the same story here, and as it goes nothing points to it being a misleading narrator. And why would it be? It's greentext on 4chan.

>>52778566
Well an entire band of heroes ran into everything the Necromancer left behind, determined it was evil, and went on an adventure to stop it.

>And why would it be? It's greentext on 4chan.
Yer a cheeky cunt mate I tell ya wot.

>>52778580

But seriously though it is a story and you can believe whatever the heck you want friendo but keep it out of /tg/ because it's a silly idea to base a political discussion off a literally fictional story.

So.

Those fallen paladins, huh?

>>52778566
>and as it goes nothing points to it being a misleading narrator
>narrator was actually a lich
Please lay down your weapons in this hole so I can enchant them.

>>52778605

Can you trim armour, too?

>>52776485
Nuclear power plants have piles of failsafes to ensure that things won't go TOO wrong. What contingency plans would you put in case the entire industrial base of your village suddenly starts pouring out of the factories and farms, tearing apart whatever they can reach?

>>52776517
>The system is not givne, but let me assume one

>>52778688

Mind control? We're talking about the art to literally control the dead. If you're not controlling the dead, then you're doing it wrong.

To be honest, I don't get the hate around good necromancers. Look at it from the gamer's perspective: it can be a fun ride, it isn't a totally worn out trope and so can be done in fairly fresh ways, and assuming the GM isn't a dick then all will go relatively well.

Sure, in the "real world" lichs and zombies and whatever are going to eat you. But it's all a game, at the end, and it's gonna be what's fun for everyone.

>>52776631
>That said, in both current campaigns I'm playing paladins, and in both I'm usually serving as the party's conscience (and often straight man.) And really, I wouldn't have it any other way.

I'm perfectly happy calling you a nofunallowed cocksucker of a square without knocking your religion just based on this.

>>52776517
>>52778743
It's not even 3.5 which is the only edition popular enough you could reasonably make an assumption.

>>52778872

Some people can have fun like that, y'know. Think of the wacky hijinks when he accidentally gets the group jailed and they have to get out without triggering him again. Conflict makes the story, which is why Paladins have the inner moral struggle: if they just received godly might with no downsides, then why wouldn't you pick it?

andthat'showwizardsareborn

>>52775713
I wouldn't go out of my way to make them fall, that's something they'd have to bring on themselves. That said, it seems the fall mechanic obligates me to keep an eye out for behavior thst would induce a fall. I'm the kind of person who'd get nervous about doing it right and probably get overzealous. Same end result.

>>52775950
Are you the same autist spamming anti-ranger threads every day?

>>52778792
Me neither. Necromancy can easily be viewed as a good thing depending on the cultures of your setting.

Fuck, not even hard to find an example in fiction. Chronicles of the Nacromancer for one. The fucking titular necromancer is the second heir to the kingdom.

Once he's known across the kingdom he has fuck huge audiences wherever he travels. The local population show up and he summons the spirits of their dead family members so they can speak one more time.

The most warlike thing he does is contact the spirits buried in the tombs below a fort that was conquered years ago and offers them revenge on those who conquered them. It's pretty horrific for those occupying the fort (and their hostages) but, hey, war ain't pretty.

>>52776485
how wrong can you be?

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>>52775713
I don't understand where the paladin celibacy restriction comes from... Murder, torture, and burning down orphanages is all understandable, but wtf is the rest of that?

>>52778743
Best part is they chose 5e, a system that did not exist even as a thought in 2011.

>>52779228
Most men of a holy persuasion are "Married to their work" so to speak. Most of them swear oaths to not get married or fuck some girl as a result.

Gotta remember, paladins are men of god just as much as the cleric is.

>>52779555
That's still a fairly new idea in Christianity though.

>>52782140
The sikhs have always been fairly invested in the value of chastity, and they're pretty much a religion of paladins.

>>52775776
>>52776517
Guys, guys. White Necromancy removes the evil descriptor.