Warhammer 40,000 General /40kg/

>>52753721
Maybe if we remove time limits and focus on kill points.

Bully Ork and Nid players until they turn into little girls!

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4th for the Omnissiah

>>52753761
>Turn Nids and Ork players into healsluts
>40k is saved and GW returns to be a hobby company.

I like this idea.

Since kastelans are monstrous creatures does that mean they can fire their twin linked heavy prosperous blasters and their carapace mounted one?

The real question is: why shouldn't I run forty fire warriors in an 1850pt list?

with only an Aegis line

>>52753802
yes
>not taking powerfists and flamers

In 40k, when IG can't win, the game doesn't feel right. The game needs to be balanced for IG and not SM.

If your standard 6 turn game were to be converted into real life combat, how long would the actual battle be?

>>52753835
>blob IG
>bad
I want reddit to fucking leave

>>52753802
Yes, they are very shooty when run like that and given Protector Protocol.

>>52753839
About 5 minutes

>>52753839
I would guess around one to two minutes

>>52753832
I have a maniple of each :D

>>52753858
Are you saying Blob IG is good? In the 7e world of WAAC gamers, there is no room for IG.

nth for Trazyn the Infinite activated the pylons for some roundabout fuckery so he can trade the imperium cadia 2.0 for Roboute Guilliman in stasis.

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>>52753839
Based on this each reload between artillery is less than five minutes.

So arguably six turns should take less than thirty minutes of fighting.

>>52753901
Standard lasgun can shoot more times than it is allowed in 6 rounds. Therefore fights should last seconds. Nice logic

>>52753832
I found the flamer to be poo.

Powerfists however I found to be very good at turning necrons into scrap metal.

>>52753858
wtf are you talking about?

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>>52753899

Kill yourself, best primarch is worth at least 500 Cadias

>>52753889
In the world of IG, there's no room for bad players
Infantry IG are among the best armies in the game when used skilfully. As long as you're playing Maelstorm anyway.

nth for the void dragon is gonna fuck shit up

>>52753977
Peaked my interest so I'll bite.
General tactics?

>please don't link 1d4trash

Anyone have any recommendations for out of the box solutions for a gaming table? I've seen a few for around $150 which isn't too bad.

https://www.gamemat.eu/our-products/folding-board/6-x4-g-board-portable-gaming-area/us/

>>52753816
Last time I ran 36 fire warriors my opponent had 3 dreadknights that just shunted forward and incinerated them.

I remember back in the day flamers automatically failed ammo rolls or something similar. Is this no longer the case for SW:A?

>>52753966
desolve thyself in the warp,

Creed is worth at least 50 primarchs.

How are the Flechette blasters on the Sicarian Infiltrators?

>>52753966
oh right, well why doesn't roboute sit still in space and hold the eye of terror closed himself. oh you mean he can't do that? I rest my case.

Cadia: 1
Roboute: 0

>>52754023
A demo charge for you,

1 sly marbo resurfacing is worth 100 creeds.

>>52754015
>3 dreadknights

And that's why we don't play against cheese lists timmy

>>52754001
piqued

>>52753839
Exactly 6 minutes.

Do you guys hate Tau players? Why? Do you know many Tau Players?

So we received news in the previous thread that the Gothic Sector is no more.
It was nommed by the EoT.

How does that make you feel, /tg/?

Do tournaments usually use the Death from the Skies rules? And if they are in use, then Necron flyers are classified as Attack Flyers and not Fighters, so they fire snap shots at other flyers, yes?

Eldar officially part of the imperium now running missions for Roboute
They are just waiting for the fashion designers to come up with the sigils for the new Adeptus Aeldarus

>>52754100
A bunch of us ARE Tau players.

>>52754120
No, they are not.

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Guess what faggots it's time for a motherfucking GGA batrep. We start our story on the industrial planet of Murica V.I'm trying to hold the control point and escort civilians off the board. The Tyranids are trying to murder everything. 4000ish points each.

>>52753977
>IG
>Winning in Maelstrom

Pick one.

Anybody who thinks that Blob IG isn't an uphill battle against any decent list is just a scrublord who can't pilot his own army and gets wrecked by mediocre guard lists.

>>52754015
Man, that sucks. At least in my group I'll just have to worry about Riptide Guy

>>52754100
This is /tg/. Half this thread is full of WAAC powergaming weebos. Tau is the obvious choice.

>>52754131
THE STORY
The primarch of the Ultramarines, Roboute Guilliman, has returned from death and leads the Imperium of Man as its Lord Commander. With a vast warp storm raging throughout the galaxy, he seeks clues to its origins and how to end it – and such clues may lie with two artefacts from the long-ago Gothic War. Gathering his allies, Guilliman sends them to seize these two prizes from the forces of Chaos. Katarinya Greyfax, servant of the Inquisition, seeks an ancient traitor rumoured to know the location of the Eye of Night, while the aeldari Yvraine and her Ynnari venture into the Black Library and beyond in search of the Hand of Darkness.

>>52753977
>>52754001


Still waiting..

>>52754100
I've just switched to Tau after playing That Guys who run Tau for years. I am determined to make a decently powerful infantry/tank army that doesn't use MCs and is fun to play against. Not all Tau players are That Guys, but you can be sure the That Guy will play Tau at some point.

>>52754120
There will be three factions, just like AoS.

>>52754109
setting forever changed, can't just undo chaos shit. End times are coming

>>52753752
please dont kick my ass mister attentionwhore

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>>52754137
My lads at the barricades. Organized my defense into three lines.

>>52752973

My list for 1k is pretty much identical, just less horde-focussed. It's served me well.

Personally I'd drop the Cognis Flamers, since Vanguard, Volkite and assorted secondary weapons give you easily 1k points' worth of anti-horde (you have a massive amount there, honestly. I see 2.5k Mech lists with hardly a single flamer) and cover-fuckery is always nice, and use the points to buy the other Heavy Phosphor blasters, the extra Heavy Stubber on the Dunecrawler and a Conversion Field for the Dominus and Datasmith, but that's because my meta is MEQ central and I like having bigger guns around, so if you see a LOT of hordes then keep it your way. Maybe mix one or two flamers into each unit to scorch any spare Boy or Gant that tries to tie up the Kataphrons, but I really would recommend the Dominus Conversion Field and the Heavy Phosphor at least.

>>52754142
IG are just a notch above orks and nids. The guy is retarded.

>>52754161
>>52754056
Nah it was ok. He was a new player with very limited model selection, he either comes with 3 dreadknights powerhouse or some random pile of mediocre grey knight units. We played with hidden lists and made the wrong reads on each other. He went max power and I tried to go easy.

I so know there's been talk about the armor save modifiers from Shadow War be used in 8th, but looking at how that works with the weapons irks me. The Pulse Rife, the most basic of all Tau weapons has a -2 armor save mod. That means MEQs would be saving on 5+ and anything worse wouldn't get a save at all. So I really hope the modifier system doesn't carry over because god damn would the Tau go from competitive to pants shittingly broken.

>>52754225
Why is your camera focused on a wrecked space marine bike? Is that what you're using to hold the line?

I'm on a bit of a terrain building buzz and it got me thinking
Is knowledge of Chaos and/or Xenos heretical? Because I heard there are factions in the imperium that will kill you just for knowing about them, but on the other hand there are a million texts warning the imperial citizen about falling into chaos. And would the Imperium depict a great triumph over Chaos Space Marines or Eldar or Tau or whoever in a painting or a sculpture?

>>52754213
Better hope i don't i'm a green nigga my fists are lethal weapons

>>52754247
well, they are s5 and that's a strength able to glance av10

>>52754205
Aren't there 4 AOS factions?
Which one got meme'd?

>>52754247
Tau as an army is designed to be broken, just like eldar will always be. Think of who plays these armies and you'll realize why.

>>52754173
>Eye of Night
Held by Moriana
>Hand of Darkness
Held by Mortarion

On Sicarian Stalkers are the Flachette blasters good? And what is their ap value?

>>52754310
>Think of who plays these armies
Weebs who watch too much anime and weebs who watch way too much anime?

>>52754295
There are 4 but the fourth is a weird non-unitary faction of people just fucking shit up. I guess on second thought with the nids and orks that would hold true for 40k too though.

>>52754312
And Mortarion is coming back. I guess we'll be getting some story about that then.

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>>52754252
>>52754225
It's part of the GW barricades anon I just liked the angle. And tell me if anyone's actually interested in a batrep right now otherwise I'll just do it later anons. The Tyranid hordes advanced with a hunger that would terrify any man their bioweapons prepared to strike.

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Who make better allies for genestealer cults, 'nids or guard?

I want to bring the tanks, but I'm worried that passing on the easy access flyrants is a mistake.

>>52754247
At this point I would wager that each weapon has custom rend value that is not tied to the strenght of the weapon. Like bolters (sh/c)ould have -1 rend but astartes shotguns or kroot rifle or scatter laser probably not.

>>52754336
And weebz are notorious power-gamers.

>>52754197
#NotAllTauPlayers

>>52754336
Anime + WAAC players go hand - in - hand.

>>52754361
The armor save modifiers they did for AoS are pretty decent.

>>52754361
>Like bolters (sh/c)ould have -1 rend

No basic infantry weapon should have any sort of Rend value. That's just going to end up with armor being even more worthless than it already is.

>>52754310
I mean, Tau aren't fun to play, but how do you design an army to be forever broken, compared to other shooty armies like Admech?

>>52754331

They're decent against light infantry like Guard or Cultists, you really want them for the Goads, they become horde-mulching MACHINES. I've often come out of scraps with Conscripts or Zombies having killed more models than made attacks. Excellent at clearing the tarpits everyone likes to try on Cult Mechanicus units, and can take a pummeling back from weak shit thanks to 2W and FnP, but will fold against dedicated melee thanks to T3 being Instant Deathed and AP-.

Oh, and the flechettes are AP-, everything gets their shitty saves.

>>52754350

Batreps are always fun, I will request some top-down shots of the entire table a bit more, though. Bit hard to get a coherent picture of the battle from just PoV shots, even if they do look very cool indeed.

>>52754350
Been following. Probably want to wait until people get off work. Too many kids on right now.

>>52754350
I enjoy this, keep going Desu

>>52754429
Not really about fun, its about building cool mechs that rape everything with very little skill involved.

How many Leman russ can i field in 2k wthout being that guy ? 9 ?


>>52754291
What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I didnt graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in no secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 0 confirmed kills. I am not trained in gorilla warfare and I’m not the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another guy i fear . I wont wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, dont mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am not contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is not being traced right now so you dont need to prepare for anything, maggot. You’re fucking dead( in 0-100 years, depending on your lifestyle and your luck) , kid. I cant be anywhere, anytime, and I cant kill you in over seven hundred ways. Not only am I not extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I dont have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I wont use it to its full extent to wipe your nice ass off the face of the continent, you little person. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would still have done the same. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re not paying the price, you goddamn guy. I wont shit fury all over you and you wont drown in it. You’re not fucking dead, kiddo. Please spare my life

>>52754429
>compared to other shooty armies like Admech

The thing about Tau is that they lack melee capability and psychic powers, and that lack is supposed to be their 'weakness'. The problem is that they've been overcompensated for those weaknesses, and thus their entire army is specialized as a default.

When you add onto that how a lot of Tau units are either pretty aggressively costed or just undercosted for what they do, and the differences are clear. It's pretty much a matter of the Tau units not having a chunk of their cost eaten up by melee ability that they never use like some other armies are.

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>>52754350
Tyranids pretty much all moved up into position with the Flying Hive Tyrant moving right up in front of my lines. Psychic powers left the Conscripts unable to shoot or attack. And Hive Tyrant murdered my poor defenseless Wyvern. So Tyranids got First Blood.

>>52754482
They are what IG should have been if GW wasn't using them as a face to dick slap with every new army in their fluff.

>>52754506
>megabloks as terrain
Leliel

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>>52754506
Deathleaper was the Warlord by the way anons just to mix things up.

>>52754429
>other shooty armies like Admech?

Except AdMech isn't (just) shooty

Skitarii:
>Protocols to bump WS
>Melee specific units

Cult Mech:
>Psalms to reroll misses in CC
>Psalms to do autohits at I10
>Melee specific units

>>52754506
>>52754540

>This terrain


Nigga, you would have a lot more fun if you build up more scenery and cut down on the units for that table.

>>52754482
Frankly melee is like that. There's almost no difference between S1 WS1 I1 and S4 WS4 I4, if you get in a scrap with dedicated melee you're done for regardless, so any shooty army benefits from buying as little of those stats as possible. And it's possible to lose by being too good at melee, wiping big units in one round and being shot to death, too. It's a really odd system that promotes being either completely useless (to not pay points to stay alive when you want your dudes to die quickly to expose the enemy) or slightly above mediocre (so as to neatly eat enemy units over two turns).

>>52754001
>>52754142
Infantry Guard alone can't win, but mixing artillery with blobs and some deepstriking Scions/outflanking Scout Sentinels is where you bump them up to solid tier. Specifically, Emperor's Wrath with Basilisks and blob IG.

With Emperor's Wrath, you have access to a 10 point wargear item that will make sure your orders go off on everything but a double 6. That makes sure you get ignores cover orders for your Basilisks. 2 S9 AP3 ignores cover large blasts, one that can be twin-linked is a great way to delete any kind of bike unit or devastator squad or anything trying to hide and hold and objective. Wyverns don't need any formation either, they already come with ignore cover and shred. It's a devastating unit to even tough infantry.

Conscript blobs with Priests or Commissars are a great tarpit unit as well as board control unit. Infantry blobs can hide heavy weapons and special weapons that have easy access to ignore cover. You can daisy chain heavy weapons while the rest of the blob moves up. You can get an order to shoot then run which is good for grabbing objectives and still contributing some fire. Imperial Agents Astropaths are 25 point access to Telepathy and Divination.

Pask in a Punisher is also a deadly combo to anything. Give him an Executioner buddy and you have a very destructive unit.

While Guard are slow, Scions deepstriking can nab objectives, or clear an objective. Scout Sentinels are great for line breaker and harassing units and rear armor.

To sum it up here are the bullet points.
-Easy access to ignore cover artillery with Wyverns and Emperor's Wrath
-Easy access to ignore cover heavy weapons
-Cheap Zealot
-Cheap psychic powers with easy access to Divination and Telepathy
-Cheap large blobs
-Cheap deepstriking and outflanking units
-Pask

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>>52754540
And here's one last one from turn one before I move on. Note the Wyvern about to get raped by a sexually aggressive Hive Tyrant.

>>52754197
>I'm going to gimp my list to show everyone what a good boy I am!
neck yourself. No reason to play Tau without suits except to show off what a great sport you are. fuck you.

>>52754429
Ah so the list builder i was using didnt list the taser goads along side the blasters. So it sounds like blasters and goads are the way to go. Thanks.

>>52754557
True, and I adore my melee Sicarians and Dragoons + Kastelans choppy Mech list, it makes suprisingly good use out of a Battle Maniple for lower points. But if you asked me to pick a phase to get another of, I'd do more damage with another shooting phase than another Assault, and Sicarians aren't exactly Deathwing Knights.

>>52754570
>really odd system that promotes being either completely useless (to not pay points to stay alive when you want your dudes to die quickly to expose the enemy) or slightly above mediocre (so as to neatly eat enemy units over two turns)

Will geedubs ever consider the old consolidate/sweeping advance/massacre/whatever rules that let melee units actually stay in melee? If not I can't imagine almost any circumstances where a pure assault armies would thrive.

>>52754482
Also melee hit tree is fucked up. That even being "bad" at melee doesn't even matter until you get to melee elites / HQs

Space Marines:
>Hit Guardsmen on 3+, and Wound on 3+
>Hit Fire Warriors on 3+, and Wound on 3+

Fire Warrior:
>Hits Marine on 4+, Wounds on 5+

Guardsman:
>Hits Marine on 4+, Wounds on 5+

>>52754540
Damn that's a nice mower son Toros have got to be some of the best had mine for years

>>52754577
Thank you for this,

Do you actually play guard? Lastly, Do you recommend allying scions or elite choices?

>>52754533
Not a bad comparison. Tau have mostly the same statline as guard, but sacrifice stats in the area of melee. All this really does though is help justify giving them better armor and a bigger gun.

Instead of Orders, they have markerlights, which can be used from a much longer range and aren't as limiting as Orders in some regards.

And instead of having to rely on lightly armored sentinels and tanks they get Crisis suits which get armor saves instead of needing to hug cover and can more easily dodge counter fire.

I'd argue Renegades & Heretics does something similar in regards to IG. They lower the stats of everything and compensate by lowering the point cost, but all that means is that you're more free to allocate those points exactly where you need them in the most efficient way when making a list. Thus, you end up with Riptides and Rapier batteries that people spam to no end because their an undercosted unit in an already aggressively costed army.

>>52754577
>Basilisks
>Mattering in a game full of riptides and wraithlords

>>52754620
Oh I didn't say they weren't Shooting Focused.

While Tau are: Shooting-Movement-Assault-Psychic

AdMech are: Shooting-Assault-Movement-Psychic

>I am counting Jetpack Moves in Assault phase as Movement

>>52754577
Woah dude, What edition are you playing? Scions? Basilisks? Scout Sentinels? How does any of that beat riptides or invisible deathstars?

Will the dark mechanicus ever get their own army?

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>>52754584
On my turn Guard firepower struck back. Pask and his Demolisher buddies got Prescience and he managed to kill the Hive Tyrant with a Guard lasgun taking off the final wound. Much of the other shooting didn't get through because of cover so he didn't lose much. But the Shadowsword actually did something.

>>52754570
>>52754638
Yeah, the only real 'weakness' Tau have in melee against most things is low initiative, but again, that's made up for with such devastating Overwatch firepower, as well as Defensive grenades by default on the infantry.

It's at the level where Tau charging a non-melee unit that's already been hurt is a viable option sometimes. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it shows off how little their weakness matters.

I mean, Crisis suits are point-for-point extremely efficient in close combat if you don't buy them any guns, and that just reflects further on how cheap they are for everything they do.

>>52754586
I've played against Tau list that use multiple RIptides and Ghostkeels. Every time I do, I ask myself why I didn't just forfeit or turn down the match. The outcome is always the same, and that's boring as shit. Getting stomped one game and absolutely destroying in the next is the way the game should play.

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>>52754699
I don't own much terrain so Mega Blocks were an improvised solution. My Shadowsword got a direct hit on a Carnifex and Tervigon and managed to obliterate the Carnifex while taking a few wounds off the Tervigon. Other than that not much happened I think a Warrior died but that was about it.

So since you can take Baneblades as Lords of War now and stuff, does that mean you can take any Apocalypse unit in your Lord of War slot as long as it has your faction?
Also if I wanted to start playing orks as fast as possible, should I buy footslogging ork boyz, boyz in trukks or grots?

>>52754771
Grotz and boyz, trukks just explode and kill all your boyz, they're pointless carrying anything but meganobz.

>>52754247
>The Pulse Rife, the most basic of all Tau weapons has a -2 armor save mod
jesus fucking christ, is there anything GW won't fuck up?

>>52754771
you can take one lord of war in y, yes

>>52754817
How many boyz?
>>52754830
What I was asking was are all "Apocalypse only" units automatically Lords of War?

>>52754640
Always Ally scions.

>>52754247
>>52754818
Wrong, you only use the save mod from strength when using weapons that use the model's strength in some way.

>>52754818
I'd assume that's because Strength stacks with the Rend value in Shadow War. -1 from Rend, -1 from higher strength than toughness

>>52753832
They have smash though

>>52754577
what the fuck am i reading. Pask in a punisher even with an additional tank for wounds (which is an extreme waste of points) just dies too easily.

>>52754688
better start praying that FW does it, and that it's so popular GW steals the idea. Their isn't even any traitor guard besides those lame cultists that were for the starter box.

>>52754843
nope, not all apocalypse only units are lords of war,if they are apocalypse only, but not lords of war, then you cant take them.

>>52754654
>>52754678
First off, they are Basilisks taken in the Emperor's Wrath formation, which means they will very likely get ignore cover when you take Volkov's Cane. That deletes units off objectives, deletes jinking bike units and deletes units with 2+/3+ cover saves. It's not meant for Riptides and Wraithknights. Lascannons, Plasma Guns, Misfortune, Prescience, Psychic Shriek, First Rank Fire Second Rank Fire are for MCs. Pyschic Shriek and Pask are for FMCs. Invisible deathstars are a joke when you have 50 Fearless Conscripts. Unless they have Hit and Run, then you don't have to worry about much.

Do you two even play? Because I'm not convinced you do as you're worrying about bait units.

>>52754851
>Wrong, you only use the save mod from strength when using weapons that use the model's strength in some way.
so basically melee? Huh, my outrage was unjustified.

Nurgle
>makes you tough as shit
>health regeneration and healing factor
>feel no pain
>immune to diseases
>plague magic
>necromancy

Slaneesh
>superhuman senses
>super drugs that make you even more superhuman
>makes you fast as fuck
>pain feel good
>more skill
>sanic weapons
>badass sound magic

Tzeench:
>fucking force fields
>vast assortment of badass spells
>blue and gold fire magic
>become mini-cthulhu
>become yagami light

Khorne:
>hurr hurr I'm angry now
>hurr hurr I hate everyone
>hurr hurr fuck everything

>>52754164
WAAC is thrown around way too loosely around here.

>>52754936
Yeah.

Like chainswords are s4 rend -1, it doesn't use your strength so it's just rend -1 but an Ork choppa is user +1 strength so a nob with a choppa would have -2 rend from his strength 5.

>>52754843
two squads of boyz to use as cover by your other units.

two squads of grots for your boyz to use as cover.

How many Leman russ can i field in 2k wthout being that guy ?

>>52754956
explain

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What does your work station /table/man cave where you assemble and paint your dude looks like? Also what kind of storage do you use for your tools/sprue/paint?

I'm currently working from my kitchen table and moving my project around to work on them actually discourage me. As I result I haven't touch my dudes for weeks. Looking for inspiration while shopping for a table to dedicate to minis. I'm limited for space and looking for storage options as well.

Picture related, a SW squad that I haven't touched in months.

>>52754464
meme

>>52754897
So where is it defined whether or not a unit is a lord of war for a certain faction?
>>52755004
I meant, how many models per squad? Maxed out or minimum amount?

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>>52754766
Turn two the Tyranids deep struck loads of shit into my back lines. With a Trigon,Trigon Prime,Mawloc and a shitload of Raveners all coming in. My Conscripts I expected to get butchered and they did.

>>52755027
"as many as you need"
How many models you got dude?

Not too many though, boyz are only cannon fodder after all.

>>52754981
That looks like it could be solved more elegantly, but at least it doesn't scream inherently broken.

>>52755027
do you know that little signs that explain whether a unit is a fast attack choice, a fortification or a standard ? LOW`s have that too. Some of them dont have that symbol, but it is explained in their rules that they can be used as LOW for faction X

>>52754577
>>52754898

Looks like you actually know your stuff. I'm new to WH40K and want to start IG.

An open question to /tg/ What do you recommend my first 200$ go into?

>>52754312
>Moriana

She doesn't have it. She guides people to it

>>52755089
different anon here, but you cant go wrong with some leman russ

Daily reminder that with 8E waacfags, tourneyfags, and grognards will be BTFO

>>52753721
Go watch mordian glory now fucker down with twin linked ignores cover lascannons and tell me they can't!

>>52755071
I'm not seeing that, I only see the faction sign and "super heavy vehicle" sign on Baneblade's rules for example.
>>52755053
I haven't got any, I was just thinking how much it would cost to get started.

>>52755121
Link? I'm very familiar with his videos. He loses in his batreps and it just seems like a bunch of theory crafting that doesn't happen on the board.

>>52755150
I'm not seeing that, I only see the faction sign and "super heavy vehicle" sign on Baneblade's rules for example.

Sometimes it is also explained in the rule introduction part.
Anyway, The apocylypse book never tells you that you are allowed to do that, if you want to play baneblades you need the cadian supplement, which explicitly allows you to take baneblades

>>52755089
Get two Start Collecting boxes. They come with a fully kitted infantry squad, a single heavy weapon, a commissar and a Russ all tied with a very neat simple formation. Spend the leftover on a basic paint/clipper set.

>>52755013
People that play for narrative misinterpret competitive play for looking up what's winning at GT's and fielding it without having an understand of how the army works or much of the rules in general.

>>52755150
Buying it first hand, a start collecting kit + armoured assault kit + mega nob squad is a solid army to build off..

Don't use the nobz for a nob squad but make them squad leaders for boyz and other squads like kommandos or tank bustas.

There are ALWAYS cheap as fuck Ork models on eBay.

If you want a plastic warboss You'll have to settle for grukk or kitbash it.

>>52754586
What if I really like Tau vehicles and I want to run them like IG?

>>52755181
Well that's annoying.
>>52755230
Yeah, I want to make a Deff skullz army full of lootas, burnaz and a battle fortress made out of a Baneblade. Probably gonna buy most of it first-hand.

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>>52755045
Just warning you anons but this was around the time the lighting went to shit. But here's another view of the front before the assault phase.

>>52754954
>Khorne
Don't forget collars of no-magic-allowed.

>>52755089
This guy (>>52755204) has the right idea.

>>52754137
Yes! Bring on the constructive contributions to our cesspool of a thread!

Guard Forever!

>>52755267
>Well that's annoying

yes, i know, but you can find the cadian supplement in this thread, so at least you dont have to buy another book just to use LOW`s

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>>52754954
is this some sorry attempt to piss off khorne fans?
Cause it fucking worked

>>52755326
Yeah, I'm just gonna keep using the Apocalypse version intead, since no one from my group has said anything against it.

Anyone have that new Eye of Night MP3? Gathering Storm actually wasn't shit and I'm hoping that BL might be able to keep it up. But not hopeful enough to pay for it. It's BL after all.

>>52755232
It might be viable in the next edition, I can see foot slog getting better. Weapon profiles are too strong at the moment.

>>52755066
I'm guessing that this was how 2nd ed represented what 7th ed's smash rule represents. Bug strong dudes breaking your armor with aheer force.

>>52755358
i think the only difference is that you cant use the commisar upgrade, but thats it, otherwise they are the same, at least as far as i know....

>>52755401
I'm only mad because I thought you could bring a Stompa or a battle fortress into a normal game, and it feels like it would have been a fun addition.
Oh and I'm also mad that you can use Machariuses or the other FW stuff I might have actually wanted to pay money for.

>>52755328
Anon, I'm just trying to get someone to prove me wrong.

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>>52755281
Conscripts got mulched on by two units of Gaunts but managed to actually kill most of own with the other unit killing enough to get out of combat. And the civilians were slipping farther from his grasp.

>>52755428
You could always talk it over with your gaming group. They may be open to playing with uncommon units.

>>52755428
i think one of the imperial army books from FW allows you to use him, but the IA books arent cheap,if your friends are fine with it, then just use the apocalypse rules, the power of house rules can bend all other rules, just do whatever you want, as long as your friends do the same

>>52755012
As many as you can afford. Russ's are decent but every army has the means to destroy a tank only army.

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>>52755545
>>52755518
Yeah I guess you're right. Shame our Apocalypse game was so long, no one wants to have those more than maybe twice a year at most.

>>52754954
I'll just simplify that:

Nurgle
>Makes you not die

Slaanesh
>Makes other people die very fast

Tzeentch
>Makes other people die with magic

Khorne
>Makes other people die very brutally and efficiently, but not quickly.

>>52755673
I'm pretty sure you got Slaanesh and Khorne backwards.
Khorne Champions want to take off your head.
Slaanesh Champions want to inflict death by a thousand cuts to brag to you how much better they are.

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>>52755476
My turn two my Scion Command Squad appeared behind enemy lines. They promptly killed those artillery Nids in pic related. While Pask opened up at a Mawloc and his squadron mates killed a few of the Raveners.

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>>52754041

>well why doesn't roboute sit still in space and hold the eye of terror closed himself. oh you mean he can't do it?

Neither can Cadians lmfao

>>52755232
Then your doing it wrong: Tau tanks need to put their speed to use, and have markerlights on standby to boost their snapshots as they jink. Essentially you should move 12" with you hammerhead, boost the snapshots against your target with markerlights, then jink. Repeat as nessessary.

IG tanks like to sit behind an infantry escort and toss out heavy weapons fire while moving ever so slightly back and forth to optimize shots. No big flanks for them.

>>52755758

Why only 3 meltagunners?

>>52754627

Consolidating into another assault was the definition of cancer, so its actually a good thing its gone and never coming back.

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How would you compare

5th edition Guard vs 5th edition Tyranids
7th edition Guard vs 7th edition Tyranids

Which faction would benefit more from the transition from 5th ed to 7th ed 40k ruleset?

>Reminder that i am talking about the ruleset, not individual army books.

>>52755428
You can bring Stompas and Kustom Battle Fortresses tho

>>52755760
Man, it's crazy how downhill the art for this game has gone.

>>52755760
Cadians did. Then Cadia exploded. So trading Rowboat Girlyman for the ability to do it again would be a pretty safe bet.

>>52755617
I've actually had very mediocre results from Russes. Every game they do mild damage. Only 1-2 die a game, but they don't take a lot of fire nor do much damage.

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>>52755758
Vanquisher squadron focused fired on the Trigon Prime dealing damage to a Carnifex and some more Ravenors. And two battle cannons finished off a Mawloc.

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>>52755842

And you chucklefucks eat it up

>>52755721
You seem to be unaware of just how fast Slaaneshi daemons are. They will inflict a death by a thousand cuts, but they'll do it faster than a Khorne daemon will go for the deathblow, because you have the possibility of fighting a Khorne daemon off, no such hope for Slaaneshi ones, not in melee.

>>52755428
Stompas and shit are just lords of war, anon. Sounds like the dudes you play with are house ruling it.

Word to the wise: arms races among friends are not fun and make the game shitty.

>>52755204
>2 infantry squads
uwot
Don't ever bother with buying heavy weapons squads, make your own out of bits, ordered if need be. Buy infantry squads, a leman, model masters plastic glue, and then heavy weapons beveled bases, kneeling legs and autocannons from eBay. Mount them on infantry squad sandbags with cut up sprue to pintle mount it to the base.
The armoured fist chimera and squad box are a good buy especially for a count as CCS and PCS. At this point you aren't expected to have everything WYSIWYG. You're going to need more infantry for a bound army anyway, you need 25 infantry minimum for a legal platoon. Next buys are another leman so you can make it Past as your warlord, more infantry and then bits to make your special weapons which again aren't more difficult than physically labeling for now.

>>52755869
>implying I've bought anything from GW in years

>>52755810
>>52755882
I'm not "arms racing" though, I just wanna build an orky baneblade. Also I just haven't seen any line towards "these units are lords of war", just that they're super heavy vehicles.

>>52755876
The same goes for Khornate Daemons, seeing as the best of humanity's regular unaugmented humans are I3 compared to the I4 of Khornate Daemons, and are the same speed as Space Marines while ignoring their armor.

>>52755869
Plenty of people comment on how shit the game is gotten across every aspect and plenty of people here just pirate shit because of it. Surely you haven't missed all the shitflinging contests that people like Carnac incite and thrive in?

>>52755876
Another thing to consider is that a Slaaneshi Daemon doesn't need to kill you. They'll use their speed to just hack of an arm or leg and basically render you useless for the rest of a battle.

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>>52755802
>>52755859
I didn't have a forth melta gun. And this is pretty self explanatory for turn three. Scion command squad died. Pask survived combat with one HP remaining. Hormagaunts charged Conscripts and Ravenors charged my Guardsmen.

>>52755943
Well, fair enough, but you can get lucky, and you can put a guard up. A Khorne daemon will cut right through your guard, and your arm, and slam an axe into your face. A Slaaneshi daemon will first throw you off guard with what they look like, and failing that passive effect, stab you in the side, throw you off, hamstring you, dance off, then come back and do it again.

>>52755876
Except a Khorne daemon will literally split you in half with a single blow. Remember Hellblades are supossed to be greatswords, yet they wield them one-handed.

would anybody be interested in joining me on tabletop simulator to play a match?

>>52755991
>>52755987
>>52755948
>>52755943
You seem to be getting into a debate that Khorne and Slaanesh have been having for millennia. Maybe they're as good at killing as each other.

>>52755948
I'm pretty sure that applies to everyone.

Why does everything in 40k die so fast? Every turn multiple squads are wiped out, tanks are made out of paper and actually monouvering is completely unnecessary because it just gets shot to shit in one turn anyway, so deepstriking suicide units is the only useful kind of mobility unless you get invulnerable saves by being eldar or something.

>>52756026
Because squads always bunch up in like if they were fighting for napoleon.

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>>52755959
My turn three part of my reinforcements outflanked in. My Venerable dreadnought outflanked right next to Mr.Deathleaper and introduced him to a lascannon and much joy was had.

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>>52756026

Because you then require more units, more models and more $$$ for GW's bottom line.

>>52756064
>>52756026
Just double every units HP or Wounds, Y/N?

>>52756026
Pretty much >>52756064

They made guns better to push new units, lowered the point costs of basic infantry so you need more just to survive, and then made any new fancy centerpiece models have insane durability so people would buy them for something to actually live through the game

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>>52756063
My Veterans came in as well and killed a bunch of Gaunts. They also made sure that the civilians would make it to my lines safely.

>>52756026
Wat
this is why you try to keep everything in cover. And shit should die. There shouldn't be a lot left for either side by the end of the game.

>>52755991
>>52755987
>>52755948
>>52755943
>>52755876
Initiative does not equal movement speed. Running speed are things like movement value, fleet and charge range. Attack speed is the attack value. Attack order is initiative.

>>52756078
I would say the better option would to be just to nerf a lot of the existing guns in the game

>>52756026
What kind of table are you playing on? Where I play we have lots of terrain and decently high terrain, everything gets cover saves all the time. The only way to actually kill anything is to have ignore cover and even then it's not certain. It only becomes a massive blood bath around turn 3 when everything is close enough to rapid fire and not get cover.

>>52756102
And Slaanesh Daemons get a flat +3" to run moves. That also doesn't go against what I said, since they'll still move up and slice you up before you know what's going on.

>>52756109
Yeah, I keep proposing that but autists flip their shit of you tell them that 90% of guns in the game are twice as good as they should be.

>>52756114
>cover saves
because that removes the manouvering aspect as well because now you're sitting in your ruin and shooting until the Tau have a marker light left over for you or someone casts prescience.

>>52756129
I just wanted to clear that up. What's a Daemonette's WS value?

>>52755887
>Get a bunch of special shit from 20 places instead of two easy boxes to try out the hobby.

>>52756114
A lot like real combat. I still think there should be a cover deterioration mechanism, like different types of cover having an increasing -1 modifier each time they're hit by certain weapons.

>>52756151
Sounds like you play on shit tables with little cover. The one we play on you can go from cover to cover. Everyone moves every game, no one sits still unless it's to hold and objective.

What does Prescience have to do with cover and cover saves? Why only bring up Tau?

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>>52756099
Scions got a Tervigon down to one wound and a Shadowsword killed another one with a Deathblow. The Guardsmen also managed to Sweeping Advance some Ravenors.By turn four we just brought in everything with him bringing back all of his monstrous creatures,Gargoyles and Rippers and after that we just called it because it got too insane.

>>52756173
>fielding 20 infantry and 2 heavy weapons plats
>expecting the lemans to live
You're thinking of things backwards. If you have no target saturation you'll get destroyed.

>>52755943

A Canoness is I4 and Seraphim used to be I4, so there's that.

>>52756208
>Why only bring up Tau?
Because /40kg/ has collective PTSD from every time a Tau player won, ever.

>>52756208
>What does Prescience have to do with cover and cover saves? Why only bring up Tau?

Probably meant Perfecting Timing.

And Tau are known for Markerlights and it's a quick reaction to an army with a ton of Ignore Cover.

Not saying *most* other factions have ways to ignore/reduce Cover.

>>52755887
Yes meme-man. TWO SC! Boxes would come with TWO infantry squads that you can make TWO Armoured Shield formations out of for easy play.

>>52756156
>Bloodletter of Khorne
>WS5 BS5 S4 T3 W1 I4 A1 Ld7 6+
>USRs: Daemon of Khorne (Furious Charge, Daemon, Hatred (Slaanesh Daemons), Daemonic Instability, Deep Strike
>Hellblade: S:User AP3

>Daemonette of Slaanesh
>WS5 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A2 Ld7 -
>USRs: Daemon of Slaanesh (Daemon, Hatred (Khorne Daemons), Fleet, Rending, Run +3"), Deep Strike, Daemonic Instability.

Honestly, it's a shame that Daemonettes seem a lot better.

>>52756208
Oops, perfect timing of course, that was lost in translation.

>Sounds like you play on shit tables with little cover
We literally have about 60% of the board covered in the GW ruins. How does that prevent
>Command Squad Strikes/Scions/Battlesuits deep strike in
>Your Tank is now gone

or

>some bullshit artillery or other targets your Infantry
>it's now gone

or

>charge
>get overwatched to shit

>>52756235
That's pretty low for a commander.

>>52756227
I think you're thinking a few thousand dollars ahead when all the guy wants to know is the easiest way to start with $200. Fucking WAACfags

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>>52756216
Hope you guys enjoyed my somewhat shitty batrep. Guard managed to win by saving two groups of refugees and having the main capture point under their control too. And if anyone has any advice to make it better it is welcome anons.

>>52756286
Pretty sure Bloodletters only win vs MEQ. Everything else is Daemonettes.

>Why are Bloodletters 10ppm instead of 9ppm

>>52756151
Yeah, the problem really lies more on certain guns than anything else. Compare Plasma cannons and Heavy bolters to the likes of Ion Accelerators and Burst cannons and you can see the creep.

A lot of guns could stand to be half range, have a lower AP, or have a couple fewer shots. That's a pretty intensive overhaul though, and you basically have to do it for every army and every gun to make sure it's in line with Bolters and Plasmaguns as the default.


Another option that might help would be going back to the old targetting and sight rules where terrain reduced your maximum range and ballistic skill so long range firepower was harder to land. That requires less of an overhaul, but might still leave the problem of some guns being too good.

Where do I find the stats for chaos spawn? So many of my rules involve them appearing, but their models are expensive and their stats aren't apparent.

>>52756286
For hunting Tau and Guardsmen maybe. MEQs and Orks still fall easier to Bloodletters.

I don't think the tabletop is relevant in a fluff discussion though.

>>52756328
Because they pay 1ppm for power swords?

>>52756264
>>52756300
Stop giving shitty advice

>>52756298
What do you expect for a codex copy pasted for years? With their rules randomly axed and move around.

>>52756346
True, and they can damage vehicles. But in a Daemon versus Daemon fight, I'm expecting Slaanesh to win, since AP3 is useless when everyone has a 5++ or better, and Slaanesh has acess to psykers.

>>52756342
Honestly I feel like every Tau model could be 20% more expensive and the Codex would still be better than Orks

>>52756298
They ARE just normal humans, if in power armor and with advanced training. It makes sense.

>>52756404
This, they should get even more crazy faith powers, not just up the stats on everything. That's another problem I have with 40k, EVERY fucking model that's not Ork boyz has good stats, there's no differentiation anymore. Make Tau Commanders WS 3 ffs.

>>52756350
Are you a psyker? Because I was about to tell you that.

>>52756403
Probably true, although most of the Tau models are fine. I think a small increase on the likes of Crisis suits along with a larger one for Riptides and the big suits would be in order to put them on the level of the more mid-tier armies (along with a change to markerlights so that they reduce cover by 1 for 1 point instead of ignoring for 2), but the fact that Tau would stay better than Orks while being 20% more expensive is more a testamant to the fact you could bring twice a Tau army's cost in Orks and still probably end up with an Ork loss. Same would apply to a lot of armies against that many orks really.

>>52756433
I legit don't get how they went from WS2 to WS4. But not a single BS increase.

Like wut

>>52756442
If you're telling a future IG player to get started with 2 squads and 2 heavy weapon platforms you need to gtfo

>>52754464
I think it depends on who you are fighting. My Tau friend pops my Russes like tin cans so I either take lots of them or none at all. If you really like them just use the FW Imperial Armor Battle Group so your tanks are your troop choices. You get lots of tanks, and a moderately bad gimped army with little infantry support.

>>52756449
Landraider is 250 naked
Riptide is 180 naked

I'm sure the Tau will get more value with the naked Riptide in a single game than someone with Landraider over 10 games.

Now comparing to Orks it is another story.

The best thing Ork have are grotz and that is because the Ork boy is way worst than a grot and more expensive

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So I'm sure this has been talked about before, but honest question. What is the lore reason that Chaos Marines don't have ATSKNF? Is it just because they've been around a lot longer and know that when you die there's not an afterlife?

Does the Wyvern/Hydra kit come with any crewmen or do you have to use shock/heavy weapons boys to complete the job?

>>52756295
>Command Squad Strikes/Scions/Battlesuits deep strike in
>Your Tank is now gone
You can position tanks with anticipation of that happening. You can also use spread out infantry to prevent deepstrikers from landing in ideal spots for them to hit your tank.

Also that means they will die just as easily next turn after deepstriking.

>some bullshit artillery or other targets your Infantry
>it's now gone
Lesson learned, don't bunch up your guys.

>charge
>get overwatched to shit
Are you charging a unit that has multiple flamers or something? If so that's your fault. BS1 will do very little most of the time. Losing more than a couple of guys to overwatch is rare.

>>52756495
well, you are right, it always depends on the enemy....
i guess i will just have to find out myself
>>52756530
it comes with a gunner and a second guy, who kneels behind the gunner

>>52756525

Because most of them are suppose to be Horus Heresy veterans and they didn't have ATSKNF back then. Also any new Chaos Marines they make in the eye aren't going to undergo the same mental conditioning. No real reason new renegades wouldn't have it though.

>>52756513
Yeah, and as I said, the Riptide could do with a large increase in points. Probably a larger increase than just the 20% that was suggested.

Meanwhile, other Tau units aside from the Riptide are in a pretty well-balanced place, but another 20% on top of that would be awful.

You'd pretty much be forcing Tau to start playing like Tyranids and spamming their one decent unit in the still undercosted Riptide.

Granted, such a codex could still beat Orks, but anyone could beat Orks.

It's hard to discuss how to actually balance Tau if you want to compare them to the weakest army in the game while also only discussing a single unit.

>>52756525
Mostly because 40k ATSKNF is a mix of mind conditioning to prevent betrayal and instill loyalty, as well as GW giving the posterboys good things.

>>52756530
Comes with 2 crew, a gunner and chief

>>52756525
Its just the brainwashing astartes recieve isn't effective on chaos marines. Their mind is their own.

>>52756525
Because ATSKNF didn't exist in 30K

>>52756513
>>52756495
>>52756449
Riptides could be 350 and still be good.

>>52756531
>You can position tanks with anticipation of that happening
tell me, oh wise anon, how I can magically prevent deepstriking around my tanks?
>You can also use spread out infantry to prevent deepstrikers from landing in ideal spots for them to hit your tank.
then they're not in cover or holding objectives, great

>Lesson learned, don't bunch up your guys.
Then I'm not completely in cover anymore you dumbass.

>Are you charging a unit that has multiple flamers or something? If so that's your fault. BS1 will do very little most of the time. Losing more than a couple of guys to overwatch is rare.
>What are Tau?
play sometimes instead of just shitposting.

I miss when 500 to 1000 point games were the norm for 40k

>>52756525
It basically boils down to the fact that the brainwashing to make them know no fear is the same one that makes them not want to fall to Chaos, so when they do fall to Chaos, it just breaks the whole thing.

>>52756548
Or we could remove Tau from the game.
GW has axed armies before, hell they have axed numerous games before.

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>>52756624

You some bitch nigga who can't handle a typical modern 40k game? Git Gud

>>52756637
What do you think are the chances of this happening?

>>52756624
Fuck, Marines can't even take a Force Commander anymore, every little skirmish in Bumfuck-Space-Alabama is now led by a Captain!

>>52756670
What is even happening in that picture?

>>52756637

Tau sell better than most armies, you shit stain (probably including yours too, you'll most likely respond that you play Orks or DE)

>>52756525
>>52756598
40k rule for loyalists represents faith in Emperor, nowhere said they are more brainwashed.

>>52756696

It's your typical 3000pt 7th edition game

>>52756700
they are though, loyalist are so brainwashed that it hurts(well, some chapters), while CSM are so fucked up that it hurts(again, some chapters).

>>52756687
Or a Chaplain, or a Librarian.

>>52756697
Actually it's SM, CSM, Orks, then Tau, iirc.

>>52756726
3000 ? thats almost killteam, why even bother ?

>>52756622
>Riptides could be 350 and still be good.

Yeah, I'm not going to dispute that. I'm a Tau player and I'm well aware of how undercosted Riptdes are. Right now they're far too easy to spam and far too cheap for how durable they are.

I would say that most of their value is in their durability though. The Ion Accelerator is great, since it's 3 plasma shots or a large AP 2 blast from a massive range, but you'd be surprised how often it falls flat without markerlight support.

Granted, since they added stupid formations to make Riptides BS 4 by default, or BS 3 clouds of marker drones, it makes things too simple to do, so people take the easy option.

The Riptide would be far better if it was simple a single, durable linchpin that really needed that support, but could help hold a gunline together or lead a deepstrike. Instead, people are using it as the only gun and just filling their lists with them and markerlights to just bypass the entire point.

Changing how Markerlight remove cover helps with that though. If it's 1 for 1 you need a whole lot more to have those AP 2 blasts ignore it entirely.

I think you could have a Riptide be fair if it was 250 points default, with the Ion accelerator and Stim Injector getting a price hike to have the final total be above 300, so long as you also restricted it to one in a list.

>>52756733
In 30k all marines except for WB were atheists while in 40k Black Templars openly worship Emperor and others furiously venerate.

>>52756764
sorry if that wasn't obvious, but i meant only 40k

>>52756697
Marine, Eldar and SoB

Since 40k is 40k, things before 3rd are more rpg than a wargame

>>52756747
do you think making them lords of war would help ?

>>52756670
Most of the people in that pciture look like they dont want to be there.

>>52756764
Anon, the fluff for ATSKNF is literally the brain washing and mental conditioning that was added to make them more loyal.

Also, venerating and worshipping are not the same thing. It's been a part of the Black Templars' lore that all other SM chapters look upon them as misguided oddity for worshipping their genesire.

Unless I misread your post's meaning, in which case I apologize.

>>52756295
Stop deepstrikes with inquisitor cotrez, he's great.

And dont charge tau, ever.

>>52756622
>tell me, oh wise anon, how I can magically prevent deepstriking around my tanks?
It's called positioning and blocking units.

>then they're not in cover or holding objectives, great
You can do both and you can hold objectives with the tanks. Sure was hard actually moving your units.

>Then I'm not completely in cover anymore you dumbass.
You were dying instantly in cover according to you, so apparently hiding in cover isn't so great for you. Try spreading out.

>What are Tau?
I forgot, there is only 1 army in 40k.

I do play and I actually play against a variety of opponents and armies. War Convo, Ynarri, Riptide Wing, Death Guard, Blood Angels, Gladius, Skyhammer, Necrons, Flyrants, Emperor's Wrath, Chaos, I go up against all that shit. You on the other hand, seem to only play against your Tau friend who beats you every time.

>>52756821
Name exact source where this is precisely said.

>>52756793
Not that guy, but I want them given LoW status, alongside something in 8th implementing a 25% rule or something of the like, meaning you can't spam LoWs. Just remove Riptide Wing, remove Riptide squads (I'm not a huge fan of most MC/vehicle squadding) and make it 250 points naked at the least.

>>52756793
I personally think that would help, though only if you also Riptide Wings as a formation, or at least move it to Apoc only. Getting rid of Squadron for them should go without saying.

Making it a LoW only works as a solution if they actually keep LoW as something you should only have one of.

If you want to know my full preference, it would be to remove the Stormsurge and Supremacy armor entirely, shift the Riptide to a 400 point LoW, and make it a Gargantuan with -1 to the stomp table (so it keeps the melee weakness) in exchange for +3" to jetpacking in the assault phase.

Do you guys ever juat make gimmick armies then writefag for them? Or is it just me?

>>52756847
The BT part? Literally every SM codex they've appeared in, iirc.

The ATSKNF part? Pretty sure the BRB fluff actually has it there. Or the SM codex.

>>52756747
I remember somebody saying that we should make formations a thing you take within a CAD to prevent spamming, then remove squadrons and force one more troops choice minimum.

Then make it so everything had to either be in the CAD or Allied Detachement.

So a Riptide wing would be part of your CAD, you could only take 3, and it would take up all of your Elite Slots. Or an Emp's Fist Armored Company would take up 1 HQ and all 3 of your Heavy Support slots. An Emp's Blade could take up 3 troops slots, an HQ, and a fast attack slot.

It would force all players to rely more on troops than elites and heavies. I thought it was a cool idea, and you could keep formations. He also pointed out to me that even though people can't take "Fluffy" lists without formations, most formations can fit all their units within a CAD anyways.

>>52756881
>And They Shall Know No Fear Some warriors refuse to surrender, fighting on whatever the odds. A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule automatically passes Fear and Regroup tests. When it Regroups, the unit does not make the 3" Regroup move, but can instead move, shoot (or Run) and declare charges normally that turn. Furthermore, if a unit containing one or more models with this special rule is caught by a Sweeping Advance, they are not destroyed, but remain locked in combat instead.

SM codex only lists rule. Nowhere its said that mentality of marines is different from 30k, they get corrupted as much as everyone.

>>52756492
No I'm telling a future guard player on a specifically small budget to start with THE BOXES DESIGNED TO START PLAYING WITH.

>>52756896
That'd be a neat change overall, though I feel like it doesn't apply as much to the Riptide situation. All that will do is limit people to 3 and force them into using Farsight Enclaves to fit in Crisis troops, which they probably were already using.

I think any Riptide fix should stay separate, and honestly the Riptide Wing is a dumb formation anyway. There shouldn't be more flat out benefits for spamming an undercosted centerpiece model and removing its need for support in the army that's all about supporting eachother.

Riptides should be relying on Markerlights to excel, while working as big gun and a shield for other units to rally around. That doesn't work properly when taking 3 of them gives them a bonus to ballistic skill and leaves them with no smaller troops to focus on guarding.

>>52756896
i wouldnt mind formations being part of an CAD, but they shouldn't overlap completly in my opinion
Maybe the Emp's Fist Armored Company would take up two heavy slots, or one heavy and one HQ slot, but not all of them

Why are Orks so bad? What mechanics make them bad? I'm sure this has been discussed to death, but what can be done to fix them? bonus points: change as few rules as possible

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Call me retarded, but is there anything stopping Cybernetica Datasmith from taking Memento Mortispex? He can normally take relics so he should be able to take those in Fall of Cadia. Am I wrong or is list builder out of date on this one?

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Considering the Deathwatch Watch Master got himself a Custodes Spear, what are the chances they could get one of those guns as a Relic choice ? How many points would it be worth, 15-25 ?

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Nice. First FW figure I'll ever buy.

>>52757017
you need cawl in your detatchment to take them

>>52756989
Mostly points costs, but also their equipment and rules compared to other factions because of power creep and having a surprising lack thereof.

You have a choice between S+2 AP5 Two Handed, or a Power Fist.

One is 5 points, one is 25.

Everything that would be a multi-use re-roll in another army is single use in Orks.

Their TEQ is cheaper than a worse version of themselves.

>>52756989
>What mechanics make them bad?

High point cost for little effectiveness, no real good options, suffer highly from leadership problems.

My suggestions would be to make Furious Charge add to initiative on the charge as well, change mob rule so it's just bonuses to leadership and then fearless once the squad hits a certain threshold, add more than 2 weapons to their melee weapon list, give them re-rolls on shooting (maybe just on 1s) during a Waagh! so it can benefit more units, make 'Nauts a superheavy assault transport to help with a lot of their problems, and just generally give them more options for wacky fun Orky stuff to do.

>>52756947
More like the box to get decimated with. IG has the worst Get Started box by far.

Can a mortal fall from grace from one of the Chaos gods? Can one of the other gods steal them away, or even forcibly convert them?

>>52756492
You should calm down and drink your juice, son. There's nothing wrong with his advice and you're just looking like a huge asshole.

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>>52757024
His arms are bigger than legs.

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>>52757024
He is pretty sexy. Also YUGE

>>52757076
Considering the Chaos gods steal turf from eachother in the warp all the time, I think stealing mortal followers would be possible.

>>52757055
>>52757055
And one of the BEST values. Tell me you never need more Guardsmen and Russ. Stop being a waacfag and let him have fun.

Which looks better to you, Forgeworld Horus Heresy character series Guilliman or GW Hero of the Imperium Guilliman?

the GW one looks like shit compared to the FW model.

>>52757078
I'm being told I'm a WAAC player for wanting the man to have a platoon in his army, just too many stupid people trying to give advice that really shouldn't be.

>>52756542
>>52756576

Noice, thanks

>>52757110
FW does look better. Gets the statesman look a lot better.

>>52757110
FW does better but I like that GW gave him a helmet.

>>52757113
How much is a full platoon going to cost him? Could you even get that many infantrymen for under $200 while still having enough for a CAD?

>>52757102
One of the best values? The GS for that army is a joke

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>>52757113
>advising a noob to start with anything but a CAD

>>52757113
>You're giving stupid advice!
>He needs to start with the tedium of painting a 50 man blob of Guardsmen or he's going to lose!

>>52756989
>1) Bad rules bring them down.
special weapons that are given huge draw backs like their bombers being given a chance to kill themselves every time they drop a bomb, flamers that can be used as power swords but not if you want to use them as flamers or simply that the effect of the weapon is completely random.
This would be so bad in itself if their weapons were discounted because of this but...

>2) Their wargear is way overpriced.
A normal flamer is 5 points, an Ork flamer is 15 because it has the added gimmick of being used as powersword... on s3 I2 infantry with no save and no business being in close combat.
With the exception of krak rockets being cheap as fuck and easy to come by, Ork wargear is generally overpriced, restricted to only a few select models or both. that brings me to...

>3)Their wargear is worse than that of other codexes
See the above rant

>4) Orks units generally use the Ork boy statline as a base... which is shit
The Ork stat-line is terrible, slugga boyz are simply unfit for purpose as melee troops and so is any unit that uses their statline.
An Ork kommando, which is a 10 point boyw ith stealth and infiltrate, is 10 points. A space marine scout is 11 and will wipe the floor with a kommando any day of the week whether it be in shooting or in melee, the scout is flat out superior.

>>52757144
Lowballing here but $50 for a Russ + 30 for a Guardsmen Squad + $25 for a Commissar and a free heavy team all for $75. Hes right. It's a great value.

>>52757032
Sure, that I knew. If this is only requirement, I am happy, as I will get Cawl eventually.

How hard could it to model one and stick it on the base with Datasmith? Is there some way of getting plastic skulls? I don't have much experience with greenstuff, so I don't think I could sculpt a skull from scratch.

>>52757155
>what are start collecting formations
Guard are hard to start because their troops choices are retarded.

>>52757144
>>52757200
Looking at a list online, the Guard box saves you around 30 bucks, while the Tau (which is certainly the best value) saves you 60.

The Guard isn't the greatest deal, but considering you can effectively get a free infantry squad for every box you buy, it still isn't bad.

>>52757212
some models include servo skulls, maybe someone has some bits to spare

>>52757200
Plus dont forget two would give him two vet teams plus a Lord Commissar for HQ if he doesn't want to run the included formation.

>>52757215
I kind of got lost in the chain of shitposting but I think the original suggestion was for two SCs which would have enough troops for a cad and hell with a bit of conversion even a command tank squadron

>>52757280
Yeah. Plus it gives him a very good branching off point to other types of guard. Another infantry box will give him enough to start up a platoon if he really wants one, or he can shift over to more mechanized guard.

>>52756896
Problem is, some armies have great or at least super cheap troops, others have to use fucking Tactical Marines or Gaunts.

Most guns need nerfing, no way around it.

>>52757226
NO THATS RETARDED YOURE RETARDED WAAAA

HE NEEDS TWO FULL BOXES OF GUARDSMEN PLUS CHIMERAS PLUS A COMMAND SQUAD PLUS WAIT TWO WEEKS FOR LEG BITS AND BASES OFF EBAY PLUS RUSS PLUS A RIPTIDE WING (YOU CAN SAVE MONEY THERE BY JUST NOT PAINTING THEM) PLUS THREE DIFFERENT SPLATBOOKS FOR FORMATIONS WAAAAA

>>52757317
You see, THIS is why 40k is getting age of sigmar'd in 8th.

>>52757311
>>52757280
>>52757226
Agreed. Plus the extra he saves can be towards a basic paint set. All in all two Start Collecting boxes is the best bet and that one guy arguing against it is a huge contratian waacfag.

>>52757137
You only need 25 infantrymen for a platoon, the remaining 5 out of 3 squads to be made into a CCS and perhaps an armoured fist for CCS transport and bodies for heavy weapons or another infantry squad for heavy weapons and a leman. You don't need to buy ICs right now, he has placeholders for them and special weapons at the moment. Buy an infantry squad and special weapons so you have them for any squad you'd need.

>>52757396
>He has placeholders for special weapons and doesn't need them right now
>Buy special weapons

>>52757358
I mean, it's not even like a Platoon would be fun to start with. It's going to eat up all of his budget just to buy the number of models he'd need, plus whatever HQ and second troop choice he'll have to add to make it a CAD. Then he'll have to assemble and paint all of that, so he won't be playing for a while. Then he'll get his first game and have all the fun of running a really massive single unit against something else, which will probably end up un-fun because he's got so much of his army wrapped up in a single unit.

Better to just run a couple tanks and infantry squads and learn how to play the game.

>>52757396
So...the 20 he gets from the box, plus the two heavy weapon teams for 24, plus a counts-as with the commissar...so he already can reach a platoon if he really wants?

This will be better how?

>>52757453
And all that for ONE troop choice. That dumb fuck is actually suggesting someone starts with six boxes of Guardsmen. That or he forgot platoons are only a single troop and he's just a super dumb fuck.

>>52757417
I assume you're going to need more las guard at a later time so if you just label the base and WYSIWYG later if need be it's the best way to go about it.
People here are acting like you can play this army and ever have a chance with that few guardsmen.

>>52756670
That's a pretty dope gargant, back there.

>>52757498
Yeah, 6 boxes will basically run him his entire budget, and from what I understand minimum size platoons aren't even that great.

I mean, at that point, I'd rather have my 20 guys advancing under 4+ tank cover rather than having them sit together in one squad.

>>52757508
>People here are acting like you can play this army and ever have a chance with that few guardsmen.

You're assuming his meta is full of nothing but WAACfags like you. For all we know it could just as easily be nothing but Ork and Tyranid players and the two Leman russes are complete overkill because nobody can deal with AV 14.

Guard are pretty solidly mid-tier, and the game hasn't shifted that much since they got their 7e update. The cheese is a bit cheesier, but they're still where they are. If he goes up against top-tier armies, he's going to lose regardless of if his 20 guys are in a single squad or not.

>>52756949
The main problem is the riptide being undercosted. Formations without tax are dumb but are not the main problem.

For example, the Air Superiority Cadre is a formation without tax but no one really cares because Razorsharks on their own are not cost effective. If the Riptide was not so cheap, no one would bat an eye at the Wing.

>>52757573
Please stop using that word you invalid there's WAAC and there's playing to one of the army's only strengths. 10 guardsmen last you just as many turns as a leman if not more.

>>52757620
You're the one arguing that a 25 man platoon of guardsmen is the absolute only way he'll possibly win, and that the people suggesting he get 20 guardsmen in 2 squads through a cheaper method when he's on a budget are being stupid and wrong and actively going to make him lose every single game he ever plays.

Is there another word you'd like me to use for your brand of mental delusion?

>>52757609
True, though at that point it'd be in a similar place to Imperial Knight armies, where people load up on a handful of these expensive, hard-to-kill models and make an entire force out of them.

They wouldn't be really overpowered at that point, but they'd still be obnoxious to a degree.

Question: Given the rampant balance problems with wh40k 7e, why haven't some savvy players joined together to re-price units or tweak some of the most offending rules to get something closer to a balanced experience?

As a reference, I was a big fan of Exalted 2e back when it came out, but its mechanics were atrocious despite is amazing world. The solution was that fans rewrote major swaths of the rules to rebalance it, and succeeded at significantly improving the game (You can look up "Fixalted"). Why did something like that not happen for 7e? Even simple stuff, like the community agreeing to bump up the Riptide's point value a bit, or changing IB to be less punishing and ork statlines to be worth their cost?

>>52757620
Isn't the guy just starting out his army? Wouldn't it be better for him to fill up his basic CAD slots before he worries about army optimisation?

>>52757656
How is it cheaper when he can get the rest of that bloated ass end of a deal through like 10 dollars in bits? Who's going to give you a hard time about not having a commissar model? Why do you really need a physical commissar?

>>52757656
>is the absolute only way he'll possibly win
>is the absolute only way he'll possibly win
>is the absolute only way he'll possibly win
For a guy bitching a whining about WAAC fags you talk about nothing else but winning, how about building an army to have fun with you stupid cock head?

Have you ever even read the guard codex or are just arguing on principle?

>>52757704
>why haven't some savvy players joined together to re-price units or tweak some of the most offending rules
Because that's home brew and home brew isn't allowed in stores because it invalid codexes.

>>52757675

Riptides don't have a 1-5 chance of exploding to a random melta gun.

>>52757709
Infantry are troops choices, he needs them to make a cad in the first place.

>>52757704
I would say it basically boils down to there being too many opposing opinions, and people having a bigger stake in things because you're talking about changing the effectiveness of an entire army, rather than an RPG character you can just re-do.

I mean, I play Tau, and I'm well aware of what sorts of changes need to be made to my army, but at the same time you would get a lot of people who play Tau who insist everything is fine, and a lot of people who don't play Tau who think the entire army is overpowered and everything should cost double.

The better method overall is to use homebrew codexes and fixes for the weakest armies to give them a boost, and for the people playing the top-tier armies to voluntarily limit themselves and not go overboard.

>>52757750
>you talk about nothing else but winning

This is me >>52757429

This is the guy I'm arguing against >>52757508

>People here are acting like you can play this army and ever have a chance with that few guardsmen.

I'm supporting that the guy buy a couple Start Collecting boxes and not go all out and buy 6 boxes of guardsmen because some guy insists its the only way to have a chance.

I know reading is hard, but you could at least try.

>>52757777
Neither do Knights. At most, they'll lose 3 Hullpoints.

You'd still have the same case where each army is made up of 4-5 really expensive durable units, and victory is decided by if your opponent brought enough melta/plasma or can camp enough objectives.

>>52757085
Manlet Lorgar detected. Go read some scripture you fucking nerd, let the real men handle the great crusade.

>>52757750
Nigga did you just stroke out trying to read that?

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So looking @ Necrons and Skitarii, which one is shooty and which one has more movement options?

>>52757854
Nigga Magnus is xboxhueg. Alpharius is the real Primarchlet, being only sligtly taller than a regular marine.

>>52757781
Yeah and he can do that with two squads as vets. OR he can use the formations for the same 20 Guardsmen and get a 4+ cover for them. He doesn't need 50 minimum like fuckass wants

>>52757859
Depends what you mean. Necrons technically have more movement options, since they have Jetbikes, Jetpacks, Jump infantry, Beasts, Skimmers, Flyers, and even some Chariots. Generally, they're pretty slow though.

Skitarii only really have infantry and walkers, but they're pretty fast due to getting 3" of extra movement from special rules.

They're both quite shooty while having some assault options.

>>52757854
Go fuck your soulbroken alien whore Rowboat.

>>52757873
I bet Alpharius developed that whole "I am Alpharius" thing for his legion so that when his brothers tried to shove him in a locker not only could they not tell which one he was but they'd always get the wrong one anyway.

>>52757828
Nice strawman but that's not even the guy you're arguing against.

You WAAC fags measure everything against whether it will win you games or not even when talking about weaker armies, it's like you're literally incapable of understanding the concept of fun or why someone would want to play guard.

I honestly don't have all night to educate you but I suggest to stop drooling retarded posts all over this thread and take a break.