>be pally >big bad captures our party alongside a village

>>52665156
Attack the bad guy

>>52665156
No, you're going to do your best to kill the big baddie and die trying. You're going to meet the inevitable fate of all true and stalwart paladins.

>>52665156

>letting the bad guy take you alive
Pussy

Fake your friend's death by grabbing him and stabbing him while using lay on hands with your other hand or smite the bbeg.
You cannot fall by entrapment.

Raise dead is 1,250gp.

Just sayin'.

>>52665156
Poison them all and give the antidote only to the kids.

>>52665156
>Big bad
Ugh

>>52665166
>>52665176
While that sounds heroic, I must point that he would probably knock me out again (I'm exactly at 1, just like the other PCs) and then kill them all to strife me.

>>52665186
I was captured with the party after falling unconscious.

>>52665188
I would try that, but I'm not sure if he will buy it. He is a powerful sorcerer.

>>52665193
DM didn't talk about resurrection spells, but you are right. Maybe he plans a revival quest?

>>52665228
I don't have poison.

>>52665246
Villain or whatever.

>>52665166
>>52665176
First and Second posts, best posts.

>>52665264
>While that sounds heroic...

Being a LG pally isn't about compromise or doing the right thing only when it's convenient, anon. It sounds like you've already fallen.

>>52665156
Attack the bbeg yourself of course.

>>52665264
>While that sounds heroic, I must point that he would probably knock me out again (I'm exactly at 1, just like the other PCs) and then kill them all to strife me.

That doesn't matter. You're a Paladin. You swore an oath to uphold certain ideals. When presented with two unacceptable options, you try for the third, even if the odds are nigh-impossible.

>>52665156
>you kill the kids then he kills your friend
or
>you kill friend he kills the kids
Begin Smiting Evil until death takes you. There is no other option for a warrior of God.

>>52665156
You're not the one killing the children, the blood is on his hands.

>>52665156
It's simple. We kill the badman!

>>52665285
>>52665295
Being a LG pally is about considering consequences through. Acting rash without thinking doesn't seen like good behavior.

I would prefer a third option that is, well, smarter and has less chance of resulting in a total party kill.

>>52665316
That's actually a good point. It's him killing not me. Of course my PC will be pissed, but then it's his sin not mine.

>>52665156
The children will live forever, innocent and loved, in the embrace of (insert God here) which your character should say to comfort said children before he tells the big bad to shove it right up his villainous ass. Remember that your character literally knows that his God exists and has his own demiplane for believers after death.

>>52665362
>Doing nothing to save innocents
>"Look at me guys, I'm still a true Paladin"

Have fun living in your fantasy world.

>>52665378
This guy has it right. A paladin cannot sit idly by while evil slaughters innocents in front of him!

>>52665156

Being a Paladin doesn't mean you have to win all the time, you know. It means you die on your feet, fighting.

Like, the only answer worth a spit is "Fuck you if you think I'm going to do that." Then you go for his throat.

>>52665166
>>52665176
>>52665193
>>52665285
>>52665289
>>52665295
>>52665306
>>52665333
>>52665396

OP, you asked. We answered. Stop trying to weasel out of it. You're a Paladin, you have your duty, do it or fall.

>>52665264
>Villain
Ugh.

Beg and grovel to have the villain take you instead, either as a slave or as a lamb to slaughter.

Sacrificing yourself is the way of the Paladin; you cannot ask your ally who did not take your path to make such a sacrifice, nor can you stand idilly by as innocent children or slain. Those that tell you to attack are short-sighted fools with too much pride for their calling.

Grovel. Beg. Throw your honor and glory onto the pyre for the sake of others.

>>52665362
Have you considered saying 'no' to the villain? No you won't let him kill the children nor will you kill your friend. What he's gonna do about it?

>>52665456
Are you stupid or something? The villain will just kill everyone then.

They tackle this one in OotS. Redcloak forcing a moral quandary on O'chul about him letting innocents die. O'chul states that he is powerless to stop Redcloak, but he is the one killing the innocents, not himself. He just has to endure it.

I believe the name of the particular strip is "endurance feat".

Also, if the DM tries using this as an excuse to make you fall, tell him no, if he insists punch him in the face. If he wanted to do a redemption storyline he could have asked your opinion first.

>>52665378
>jump into a situation and results in even more innocents being killed
Temperance is a paladin trait. The 'smite evil, charge! ops I fucked up' isn't.

I would surely attack the wizard if I knew a way that wouldn't result in him killing even more people.

>>52665455
That's... actually a pretty good. Thank you anon. Time to swallow my pride.

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>it's another GM thinks he's original by forcing the paladin to choose between killing one innocent child or 10 innocent adults episode

I hate re-runs. This shit got old 20 fucking years ago, but for some reason they still giggle to themselves like fucking school girls on prom night every time someone mentions he's gonna be playing a paladin.

I know you think forcing the paladin to fall is fun and all, but at least come up with a horse that hasn't been beaten to paste by now. Like making him interact with a demon that's been cursed to speak nothing but truth, or a ghoul that eats only undead, or a torture contraption that's systematically killing children which can only be stopped by channeling unholy energy inside a lock, and there's no necromancer or the like inside the party (I'm sure you can come up with a reason why they can't just leave and come back later with one), etc.

>>52665455
that won't save the children anon. Offering yourself as a sacrifice is noble, but only if it is for the right reasons. You are there as the Fist of God, act like it. Since op claimed he was a villain, you cannot believe his word obviously. He has already captured you. Only option left is to fight. Fight with everything you have until evil lays beaten before you or you have finally met your end.

>>52665495
It's not about winning, it's about standing up for your principles.

>>52665456
The big bad already kicked the piss out of his whole party, they already said no, this is the result.

Let the villain do what he will. Playing into his foul machinations gives you zero guarantee that he won't simply kill you and the children. His damned soul simply grows blacker. If he kills the children and lets you live, you will serve justice to him even if you must trek to the hells themselves and back. If he kills the party, you died knowing you were a just and lawful servant of your God. The only winning move is to not play, because your powerlessness to change anything has already been demonstrated.

>>52665156
Personally, as soon as I am free I would try to kill the villain. As a Paladin.

Generally though, I would not play a paladin in the first place. Because GMs who put you in front of these kind of decisions just to make you fall are complete and utter pieces of shit.

>>52665592
No. Even if he lost already once he still has the duty to try to stop innocents dying. Just because of his odds of success are almost nothing doesn't change the burden on him to act morally.

>>52665538
>Fist of God
Not right now you aren't. Paladins must act prudently. Killing yourself in a heedless charge that only serves to anger the villain into killing you, your friend, and the children serves no purpose. A charismatic paladin should be able to argue that he is worth more either as a slave or a trophy mounted on the wall.

If you are strong enough to do good, then do it. If you are not, your brave actions are rash and worthless.

>>52665575
Standing up for your principles and resuming to choose gets no Good or Law done. In this situation what gets you to your end goal is stalling for time so that the rest of your party can help you kill big bad, this way you can save both the children and your friend.

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>>52665538
No, that's just going to get the children killed.
The innocent and helpless must be protected, no matter the cost, and there is no greater offering to one who is evil and tyrannical than one who is just and good because it defies the justifications that the Evil one has made up for their own actions.

>>52665653
True, but that as long as he doesn't endanger more innocents.

>>52665653
You seem to forget that OP is a paladin, someone who knows his God exists. Death simply releases their souls to an everlasting paradise. His buddy on the other hand is not a paladin or a cleric (probably) so there's no guarantee of him getting into heaven. Really the only question is if the villain is going to torture the children or recruit them, at which point the right option is to kill his buddy to prevent suffering or the damnation of more souls.

>>52665664
You cannot negotiate from a position of weakness. There is nothing to be gained for the villain to agree with the paladin, because he already had the party captive. Say you agree to become their slave, what's to stop him from killing the party, the children and the paladin anyway? Nothing.

>>52665664
You are already bested and a prisoner of this vile mage. He can kill you whatever moment he so pleases. You cannot bargain, as you have nothing left to offer. Since you are already a prisoner. But being weak is no excuse from your duties. You are the ideal for others to strive for. Never surrendering to evil, even if you know you cannot win. Because opposing evil is the only good thing to do. Tiny daily evils, world-rending evils, the scale does not matter. You must face down evil, and either smite it or die trying.
>b-but being dead won't help them!
No it will not. But, by the virtue of your character, cannot sit idly by while evil has it's way with the innocent.

>>52665692
>your party can help you kill big bad
Exactly what I said, attack the villain and reject his proposition.

There's no innocence, only varying degrees of guilt. The villagers are guilty of being weak and captured by the villain. Guilty of watching their children being taken away and killed for amusement. The world doesn't revolve around the paladin, every single person in the area, from henchmen to parents will have as much blood on their hands as he will.

As such the paladin should only prioritize killing the villain himself regardless of how many will die in that village, because that will prevent him from re-enacting these sort of games in other situations, leading to even more deaths.

>>52665746
The party is trapped and will need some time to get to where you are.

>>52665722
I did not say negotiate. I said beg and grovel. Again, you refuse to let go of your foolish pride. You also seem to be ignoring the very real possibility that the villain can simply slaughter everyone regardless and will surely kill everyone if you attack him. You continue to choose certain defeat and loss over potentially saving others at the cost of your pride.

>>52665773
The end result is the same, not taking the villain's "deal".

>>52665156
>Not offering your life in exchange for theirs, even if it means fighting to let them escape

Sounds like you already fell

>>52665156
You've got to value the needs of the many over the needs of the few, which in this case is you. Self sacrifice nigga, since you're too chicken to try and take him out.

>>52665786
Pray tell how begging and groveling is going to stop the villain killing the kids? That's what he's threatening to do unless the paladin kills his friend. Do you think you're going to sway his mind by asking nicely?

>>52665693

Well when I play a pally I'm not a little twat.

Spit in his face and tell him you feel sorry for him..... then roll another character. You clearly blow dick at playing a character that knows his deity and receives his power from.

OP, you should become an hero

>>52665786
What is your wierd obsession with pride? Begging for mercy from one with no honor such as this will not save the children.

>>52665156
Attack him.
Die.
Tell the GM he's a faggot and you won't reroll a character.

>>52665742
>sacrifice yourself valiantly
>wizard chuckles, adds the memory to his mental spank bank
>kills or recruits the children
>fucks off to continue being evil perhaps forever

>don't play his stupid game, let the kids die
>work out, get SWOLE, serve justice eventually
>kids live forever in heaven

>kill your friend, repeat option one.

There is no way those children are getting away no matter what you do OP. Wizard is clearly pure evil, and wants to destroy your character, the kids dying is what will do the most damage no matter what.

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I ask the gm if there is room enough to charge
If so I charging smite the fucker for triple the normal smite damage(which considering he's a level 12 paladin is an extra 36 damage.

Also I ask if the villain has physically or magically attacked me recently

If yes, multiply said damage(spiked gauntlet because even Paladins like to cast FIST) by 4 because of my enchanted from the god of retribution and luck.

If he survives taking 164(on average) holy damage spiked gauntlet to the face, let the true battle begin.

>>52665869
In all honesty, this, your GM is a giant fag

>>52665156
Argue as follows:
>you have a Good alignment
>thus you cannot take Evil actions
>thus the game mechanics prevent you from complying to the villain's demands
>thus the game mechanics absolve you from moral culpability
>thus you cannot fall even through inaction QED

>>52665887
Also just to be sure he gets the message across, beat him.

>>52665825
Pray tell, how will screaming DEUS VULT and ineffectually charging the villain save the children? For that matter, how will killing your friend save the children; as you said, you are all at the villain's mercy, and he can easily kill the children after you kill your friend.

You fail to understand that this entire scenario stems from the villain's desire to show their power over the paladin, the ability to control and taunt and taint them. For such a villain, the sight of a grovelling, crying, gnashing knight of goodness would be quite compelling and the promise of future torment risks being too good of an offer to ignore.

Is it a perfect plan? No, of course not; there's a very solid chance that, no matter the villain's claims or paladin's actions, no one except he leaves the town alive. It's better than a suicide charge though. From a meta-perspective, it also has some fun possibilities for drama, character growth, and campaign direction, more so than "I stab Bob's character"; I'm also imagining that, after a long period of abuse and the villain thinking the paladin has been broken, the paladin gigs him with the setting's equivalent to a +5 Holy Avenger dagger to the neck that a PC smuggled to him.

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>>52665156
Faggot DM is trying to force a fall. Tell him to get fucked, attack the bbeg.

>>52666113
>attack the bbeg.
this, when you know your playing against a stacked deck sometimes the only winning move is to flip over the table.

>>52666073
Feel free to try out begging and groveling, but you're mistaken in imagining that it is a solution to the situation - it is not. It doesn't compel the villain to change his actions. After the groveling session nothing has changed. It might be fun to play out, but it doesn't resolve anything. It doesn't stop the villain from showing their power by killing whoever they please - in fact, it just makes it that much more satisfying to them. You can ask nicely first, but eventually the paladin has to take a stand and die trying.

>>52666167
It certainly is easy to repeat "it doesn't work" four different ways, but you haven't produced a better approach. All I've seen in this thread are good candidates for WWII Japanese fighter pilots.

>>52666196
Kamikazes still sank ships
The goal isn't to save the paladin, but to kill the bbeg

Perhaps his patron deity will grant him a miracle? More likely than a truly evil villain granting mercy because the paladin debased himself

>>52666196
Very well, let's say that after begging the villain still decides to kill the kids for his own amusement. Then you would agree that attacking him in a nigh futile attempt to stop him would be the right thing to do? (my stance is that it would be)

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>>52666196
You misunderstand paladins on a core level. They aren't about living to fight another day, if it means turning their back on evil and injustice. It is their god-given duty to face down evil wherever they find it and destroy it, or die trying. Paladins are the ones holding the gates in a last stand so others can escape, or charging headlong into the dragon's flames to slay the beast. Live or die, it is by God's will. We are instruments of His will, and His will be done. If we live, our purpose isn't yet finished. If we perish, we ascend to our promised afterlife with our God. So in OP's asshole DM's senario, there is no downside to attempting to smite evil.

>>52665166
>>52665176
These. A man is responsible for his own actions. You aren't responsible if the villain kills your people. You are only responsible for killing HIM

>>52665910
best post

>>52665156
>>52665166 and >>52665176 are right.

Paladins don't choose when and where to uphold their oaths. You gotta kill the BBEG or die trying. It's the only way to possibly prevent the death of innocents and good characters. Paladins aren't meant to retire OP. They pick bigger and bigger fights and kill baddies until they die.

>>52665885

He's plot shielded :^)

Now make the binary choice.

>>52666501
When presented with two impossible choices the Paladin rejects both and goes for a third one. It sends a message, and that message is 'fuck you Dave you tool'

>all those dumbasses paladins
Reminds me of a game I played. A demon had captured our party and then announced that we had two options: do a quest for him or die. The retarded paladin shouted 'never!', rushed at him and was immediately cut down. Me and the rest of the good party played along, screwed his plan and then killed him after we recovered our strength.

Being a Paladin != Being a retard

>>52666547
Because it is a totally different situation.

>>52666547
If that's the case, then why do Paladins have such strength in their convictions that it gives them literal magic benefits if they're not fanatical enough to even default to them in difficult situations? Is a Paladin supposed to be faultless now, with an ability to devote themselves to a goal so thoroughly that it manifests as an inner strength, but can temporarily drop that goal because it's convinient?

If a Paladin goes through an impossible choice and chooses Evil where a Good option exists, I would make him Fall as GM. Granted, I'd make it far easier to attone if the only Good option was retarded, but this is exactly why the Fall mechanic exists.

>>52665156
Attack the bbeg.
If you die fighting BBEG and I was DM I'd consider letting you return as revenant.

BBEG is only going to betray you and kill everyone once you fall.

>>52666547
There is a difference between
>do something for me where there's a chance to fuck me over
>die

And
>become a murderer
>become a murderer

>>52666560
How is it different? Even a moron with half a brain can see you aren't supposed to kill him yet. It's the typical 'bad guy does an atrocity to establish he is evil'.

>>52666547
Knowingly working for an Evil being makes Paladin fall by RAW, so the player's hand was forced. He had to either suicide or have fun not having his class abilities for the next how many sessions, which sucks. Imagine if the party Wizard got to choose between dying and his spellcasting taken away, same situation.

>>52666597
>don't play
Oh so hard.

>>52666599
metagaming

>>52665156
OP, the wizard is clearly taking time to make you suffer, before killing the children anyway. Either that, or it's some sort of test of character.
Either way, do not do his bidding. There are a few options.
Debase yourself, make a fool of your character, beg him to release the innocents. However, since we're talking about an absolute arse, it probably won't work, and you'll just end up losing your dignity along with your life.
Insult him, and use your wit to turn every "lol ur screwed gud is dum)))) :DDDD XDD" against him. Possibly by insulting everything he holds dear in the process. At least you'd make a fool out of him. Oh, and add sarcasm. Make him drown in it.
Or, you could try to smite that knob as much as possible before biting it, and insult him in every way you know. That would be the noblest thing you could do, and would be what a true paladin would do.

>>52666609
Yes, trying to kill the BBEG is, in fact
>not play
ing

>>52666608
At the same time, any good GM will probably recognise that the Paladin and their god or code would be somewhat understanding, to the point where they're not 'exiled' with a permanent Fall, but rather punished with a temporary pseudo-Fall until the Paladin comes to term with, or convinces his God to change their mind on, his sin.

Falling is really a much better mechanic when the game master realises it's not necessarily just some binary 'lel u did something bad Fall forever' thing, it's very easily played-out as redeeming yourself for your actions or as a test from your God, and could be a short as a single two-hour scene of the Paladin proving his righteousness for letting the children die because the BBEG was 2stronk.

>>52666632
I mean don't do anything. The enemy is the one doing bad stuff and you are powerless to stop. Become strong and then stop him.

>>52665156
>if I don't kill a PC
Well- you can
-Pray for divine intervention as in freedom of your bonds to tackle BBEG to prevent him from harming anyone
-Do that without the deity/angel/archon showing up out of nowhere
-Nobly an hero by biting your tongue or some ohter suicide method to leave BBEGD flabbergasted
-Do your friend in because resurrection is a thing, though the BBEG may be in cahoots with Pazuzu
-Actually say pazuzu to fuck things up or Kostchie then roll a bluff to see if he thinks BBEG summoned him/aspect
And then make off with the kids.

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>>52665156

You gotta smite all the children.

>>52666648
Op clearly stated
>either you murder ur friend or the kids. Otherwise u r kill

It's not a difficult thing to grasp, right?

>>52666608
This so much. Everyone makes fun of paladins making "dumb" choices by sticking to their morals, but they lose EVERYTHING when they drop them. Should do that in my game, force that choice on players, have the mages either die or lose their casting until my whims decide to give them their abilities back. Then laugh as I point out to them how that's exactly what last our last GM did to our palaidn. The guy left and they tipped their fedoras at him on his way out.

>>52666648
Letting children die while he stands aside and does nothing is a failure on the Paladin's side. Just because he's very unlikely to succeed in stopping the villain does not he's freed from the duty to try. Paladin is supposed to fight against Evil all the time, not just when he thinks he has pretty good odds at it.

>>52666647
One of my Paladins was acting out of alignment. He starts having visions of himself standing in the centre cracks forming in the ice below him. Below him he sees the abyss above him a roaring platinum dragon. Starts having to do low dc wisdom checks to use his smiles. One session of me laying that on and he had his faith renewed.

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>>52665156
Berate the DM for incorporating a trolley problem into your game.

>>52666647
That, or just start cynically playing the game mechanics
>Paladin falls
>converts his Pally levels into Antipaladin levels
>does a Good deed on purpose
>Antipaladin falls
>converts his Antipally levels into Paladin levels
rinse and repeat as necessary

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>>52666756

Trolley problems are the best though.

>>52666749
>low dc wisdom checks to use his smiles
>smiles
Is this a new version of laying on hands? It would feel kinda appropriate...

>>52666688
This, and then some. Kill the other PC too. The bad guy has no more leverage. He Keyser Soze'd him. Now former paladin shifts into a blackguard and slays the evil sorcerer.

>>52666806
>Now former paladin shifts into a blackguard and joins the evil sorcerer.
FTFY

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>>52665156

>>52666725
This.
Every paladin knows that one day he will die in the struggle against evil.
They also know that until then, they must struggle, fight, tear and suffer in the neverending conflict against evil.
A Paladin, that is a proper paladin, would throw himself at the evil in front of him, even if it meant he might die in vain, because he knows that not only will there be others to strike out against him later on, but even if he fails, he will become a martyr for sticking to his beliefs to the very end.

TL;DR: The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

>>52666857
I ain't gonna read all that, but if there's a choice that involves pushing a fat person off a bridge, I'm gonna take that one.

>>52666782
iPhone autocorrect

>>52666857
This is what every DM turns into when a player says he wants to be a paladin.

>be evil wizard
>kidnap a little girl
>go in front of the paladin order HQ
>lay several magical traps
>shout 'I'm going to kill her!'
>watch as entire droves of paladins blow to bits
>later take little girl for icecream

gg ez

>>52667027
>>be evil wizard
>>kidnap a little girl
>>go in front of the paladin order HQ
>>lay several magical traps
>>shout 'I'm going to kill her!'
>Get shot to death by Paladins with crossbows

>>52665246
Faggot

>>52666868
Why the hate for fat people? Is it cause they're lazy? As in too lazy to work off the fat? Or maybe too lazy to read a couple paragraphs?

>>52665156
OP, the choice is clear, fight the bbeg and die trying. Then grab your dm by the nuts and tell him either he cuts off his dick or you kill his "children"

>>52667027
>>52667046
Like a powerful order of paladins wouldn't have allies like clerics and good wizards with them or close enough to assist with dispels, buffs, extra healing, etc.
>paladins take little girl out for ice team AND pony rides

>>52667127
Drain on the HC system, brah.

>>52667162
>and pony rides
This is a blue board
>>mlp

>>52667183
Sorry
>>/mlp/

>>52667183
Horsefuckers ruin everything

Ok then: ice cream, take her to a petting zoo, make balloon animals and read her bedtime stories

>>52665156
you do what your character would do, faggot.

additionally if your GM is being a dick by trying to be edgy you can tell him that he should stop

>>52666599
Are you autistic per chance ? Because if you can't grasp the differences between both situations I think you may be. So here's a GM point of view :

Take the demon thing. From a GM point of view, it's good way to introduce an unusual quest. From a character point of view, it can be explained by the demon needing pawns. From a player point of view, it's a way for the GM to strongarm you to do a quest that would be out of your bounds for moral reasons, without feeling to bad about it. In this case the paladin is a retard for attacking the demon knowing he will die uselessly, because there's clearly a lot to gain from accepting the demon's deal, without sacrificing too much.

Now the OP's situation. The wizard clearly doesn't need the paladin to kill neither of the PCs nor the kids. The wizard isn't trying to test your character knowing he can kill you at any moment. He isn't trying to recruit the fittest of you because the other PC would be able to kill the paladin just as sure as he can kill you. The GM has set the whole thing to make you fall, up until the Wizard plot-armored self-insert. You say
>It's the typical 'bad guy does an atrocity to establish he is evil'
No it's not. He would kill the babies himself.

In terms of actions, from a player perspective, killing the other PC is also out of bounds : it would be a big "fuck you" to the other player, who is at your gaming table. Killing the kids is fucking you and your party, because as a fallen paladin you are just an horribly gimped fighter. In fact, the game is so rigged from start : there's no guarantee the Wizard will not slay the kids anyway, there's no guarantee he won't slay the other PCs as well, so the best way is the third way : flip metaphorically the table and force the Wizard to get rid of his plaything.

If the GM had a smug smile on his face during the whole ordeal, once your pally is dead, tell him he's a shitty GM and leave. For good measure kick his chair from under him.

I have a similar question:
Do alignment of my LG warrior determine my actions or I can do whatever I want but my alignment will change?

I dont get it, I create PC with backstory and I have alignment but through adventures my deeds have influence on my character. So alignment only reflect the way my PC act in past? And only needed to certain classes?

>>52667264
Your alignment can change. It can be safely ignored by most classes, and honestly, all classes if your DM is open-minded.

>>52667046
You cannot shoot crossbows when I am near a little girl. :^)

>>52667162
Too busy charging to worry about those little details.

>>52667264
Alignments are used as a general guideline for character behavior. They are not set in stone, but should be considered when roleplaying your character.

In a world where good and evil aren't abstract concepts, and instead manifest themselves as literal gods, alignment can become important to how the cosmos view you.

In older D&D, alignment language was a thing. Characters of like alignments were more inclined to "understand" one another.

>>52667027
>be evil wizard
>kidnap a little girl
>throw tea parties for her
>convince her she is a princess
>give her all kinds of dolls and convince her they are part of her court
>roleplay as one of her subjects
>encourage her to make outrageous orders and follow them to the letter
>throw her the best birthday party ever
>she hits her rebellious phase and starts to hate me
>regret everything
>I just wanted someone to have tea parties with and play court
>paladin smites me
>she's returned to her abusive parents

Where did I go wrong?

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>>52665156
>Playing a paladin
You deserve it for playing the cuck class rather than an alpha cleric of war.

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>>52665156
>What would /tg/ do?
Go the "we don't negotiate with terrorists" route. Killing anyone who didn't have it coming, whether it's your best friend or an old granny who only has 12 hours to live, means innocent blood on your hands. Avoid that if it can be avoided. The honorable thing is to attack the BBEG
>B-But he'll kill you
What's morally right isn't always what maximizes your chances of survival. And that describes the ideal mindset of the paladin: he does what he does not because it's convenient, nor because he thinks he can win, but because he must.

>>52667289
Precise Shot (Ex)

>>52671101
>critical fumble

>>52666857
It doesn't matter which track the brain chooses as the brain will rapidly switch tracks after the first set of wheels crosses the switch. That in turn will derail the trolley, killing both Jones, Leftie, and destroying the ten hearts, thus causing both outcomes to occur simultaneously.

>>52668051
When you raised a spoiled, demanding brat intentionally then expected people to feel sorry for you.

>>52671134
All the paladins with crossbows are also clones of Simo Häyhä. Now what?

>>52665156
Attack the DM.

Bull rush his ads and start grappling. Mage can't cast spells if his arms are pinned and he's being strangled to death.

>>52665156
https://youtu.be/rdAQJBOHVfA

>Implying my best friend doesn't have my back and isn't robbing the big bad of his bargaining chip under his fat nose.
>Implying I'd let the big bad to speak even two words the moment I saw him.

>>52673167
>What is Freedom of Movement?
>What is Misty Step?
>What is Ethereal Body?
Also
>Martial
>Grappling
>Bull Rushing
Pick one.

>>52665156
Use your brain.

Tell him you'll only do it if he has a weapon and can fight back. Now you have two to fight with you

>>52665156
Kill the best friend. If they're your best friend, and you're a great hero, they want to die to protect those kids.

>>52672585
this

ITT: people who can't paladin.

Half the people in the thread have already acknowledged that the bad guy will probably kill the villagers regardless, so you can't affect the situation positively by acting.

Choose not to act. Watch him kill the children, laugh like a dick and teleport away. Then pray to your God, vow vengeance for the village, and smite the everliving shit out of that smug turd with the full force of your God's wrath at a point when you can actually do something good.

You can't do ANY good to anyone dead. Christ people, LG doesn't mean lawful stupid.

Alternatively, kill every other PC, the kids, and yourself, and tell the DM to think up a better plot next session, if you even feel like going back after that bullshit.

>>52665156
Offer yourself as a sacrifice, and go out like a true bad ass. You will be remembered as a martyr, and you will make your fellow PC's cry
vid very fucking related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jj3gNff64U&ab_channel=Code0x

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>>52665156
"You're doing this to force the violation of my code, to humiliate me. I will renounce my oaths and scorn my god, i will fall by your volition but i will not murder innocents. You have not killed us so this slight against me must mean something to you. These are my terms, villain. You and i both know my tenets compel me to speak truthfully. What say you? A holy warrior turning his back on his faith, or a martyr?"

Roll for fucking persuasion.

Alternatively, play for a deus ex machina because your GM is a fucking dick for putting you in that situation without giving you divine intervention.

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>>52665156
I will tell the villain that whatever a person does when threatened won't be a choice they make, but instead a reflection of the depravity of their captor. I will tell him that only cowards would hurt people who can't defend themselves, and that true strength lies in faith and justice. The people who the villain seeks to enslave know that my cause is just, and gods are on my side, and even the villain himself knows that. That's why he's afraid of me, and can't face me in a single combat. Instead he (and the DM) tries to justify his own weakness of spirit by forcing other people to become weak like him. I will tell him that he wants me to grovel and lie, cheat by trying to attack him, or even kill someone I love for a faint glimmer of hope. He wants me to fall lower than the Nine Hells themselves only to justify his own delusion that all people are bastards like him. I will tell him that it takes true strength and courage to be merciful and forgiving, and that it's okay to be afraid. The villagers are afraid right now, but they have those who would inspire and show them the right path. I will tell him that deep inside he also knows that his own path leads nowhere, and is afraid to admit it. I tell him that it's never too late to turn back. If he declines, and he's really that far gone, I will tell him that I made a vow to protect the innocent, and I will not allow any harm to come to them while my heart is still beating. I will swear that if he harms them I will find him anywhere, and I will smite him in the name of all things holy and sacred. And if I die, I will curse him with my last breath, and he can be sure that his deed will not go unpunished, be it in this world or the next. I will command him to face me in a duel, and pray to my gods, and try as hard as I can to win, as a true warrior of Hope and Justice.

And while I'm talking I'm also hoping that the rogue hid his dagger in a sleeve and is trying to cut wizard's bindings.

>>52680997
>teleport away
It's really hard to read.

>>52666113
I totally agree with MrCapslock's pic. Good DM never makes a paladin fall unless paladin is deliberately trying to do some evil shit. If a paladin is forced to do some shady stuff, and he regrets it, and he prays for forgiveness later, and he roleplays well, I don't see why there should EVER be a mechanical penalty for that. Like, yeah, got mindcontrolled, slaughtered some innocents. If he's horrified and shaken, and seeks to make amends/vengeance, he's totally still a paladin.

That said, OP should talk with the villain. Maybe the DM is not THAT kind of a fag, and just wants to give away some plot hooks.

>>52665362
Do you even cathegorical imperative? And that's what oaths are.
Consequentialism is good, but not lawful.

Why play paladin at all, mechanics-wise?

>>52681530
In 5e they're like either the best class, or the second best class, depending on how you value bards.

>>52681576
War cleric is basically equivalent to paladin(no completely busted auras but full spellcasting)

Valor bard is a better paladin once you dip into it 2 levels to get the divine smite

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>>52680997
A real paladin does not choose when he gets to wait and not act, and let the evil endure. Suffer not the evil. It is your job to purge. Follow your code or fuck off.

>>52681467
>Consequentialism is good, but not lawful.
When a paladin has to choose between Good and Lawful, the right choice is always Good.

>>52681697
>A real paladin does not choose when he gets to wait and not act
Except they do you fucking nigger. A paladin is calm and rational, not an emotional brat who charges and fuck everything up. What you are roleplaying is a retard.

>>52665156
>accept either alternative villain gives you
>turns out he was lying, kills the other anyway and you knowingly agreed to murder an innocent
>fall
Color me surprised.
Do not negotiate with terrorists.

>>52665176
/thread

>>52681824
And what you are Rp'ing is simply a Magic fighter that doesn't follow his duty at all. Just fucking player a fighter at that point if your not even going to follow the code

>>52681898
Where in the paladin code is written: 'charge the zombie army upfront without a back up plan'?

A paladin job is to fight evil, true, but you don't fight evil by going Leeroy Jenkins. You would just die and make all the resources people spent on you worthless. You fight evil by taking actions who actually hurt evil, while also taking care to reduce as much as possible the number of collateral's. It's like you have 8 WIS.

>>52665156

You must attack the bad guy, die heroically, then pull up another paladin with a suspiciously similar statline to avenge your first one.

>>52681935

How many children are we talking about here? Is there a way to determine the relative value of a paladin, whatever his best friend is, and x amount of villager children?

>>52681935
It's not your job to care about what people spend on you. Your job is to destroy evil anytime you see it. You do not get the choice to wait. You see it, it must die for the greater good. If you die doing this, then glory to you.

>>52681996
The fact of the matter is that A) the wizard is probably a liar so abiding to his plans won't change a thing; and B) the wizard already showed he will not kill the paladin, because he wants him to fall or at least suffer.

Ergo what matters here is the paladin surviving the encounter so he can help the party defeat the wizard. He has the advantage that the villain is sadist and isn't planning on killing him, but if he does something stupid the wizard may as well take the smart route and wipe out everyone.

>>52665156
The only way to end this injustice for good it is with your allies at your side the children have to die for the greater good

>>52681999
> Your job is to destroy evil anytime you see it.
I know you are memeing, but no, you cannot destroy evil if it potentially threaten more innocents casualties. Otherwise you would be justified in burning a village to kill a single bad guy.

>>52682115
>I know you are memeing
Oh the irony

>>52682115
Yes. The village is of no matter. The only things that matters is the removal of evil. On the fact that they allowed the scum among them simply means they have chosen own death. They knew the day would come when they would be punished for their faults they imply thought that it would not come. Sadly for them it has.

>>52682135
Yes, it's memeing. Anon is advocating the 'smite evil, purge!' dumbass paladin who became so popular.

>>52682136
(you)

>>52682167
>(You)
Go back to playing your fighters if you can't properly do a Paladin

>>52665156
Listen here faggot, this is how you'll get out of this. Your going to lure the wizard closer to you as you lie to him and tell him your ready for death. But pass a speech check to convince him to give you a noble death, and one not by magic. As he gets closer to you, you reach into your pocket and throw sand into his eyes. As he recoils from the sand, roll a strength check and tackle him, cover his mouth so he can't cast spells and defeat him and save your friends

>>52682242
If he does that the dm will go LOL can cast without using mouth

>>52668051
Wait no, you were onto something there.
>be evil wizard
>kidnap a little girl
>throw tea parties for her
>convince her she is a princess
>give her all kinds of dolls and convince her they are part of her court
>roleplay as one of her subjects
>encourage her to make outrageous orders and follow them to the letter
>throw her the best birthday party ever
>make a bunch of constructs and flesh golems to add to her circle of subjects that are indistinguishable from people
>build an actual town populated entirely by eerily accurate flesh golems which she administrates
>Slowly allow actual real people to immigrate and settle in, oblivious to the fact that they live in a fucking magical waxworks museum
>Encourage little girl to make more and more outrageous orders, which there are now real people to enforce and have enforced upon
>The consequences are now totally real, but a sizeable portion of the population are absolutely loyal fake-men so rebellion never occurs
>She gradually becomes a marginally competent administrator from seeing how her shit plays out
>Grow the fiefdom into an empire
>Paladins arrive, time to watch this play out from a safe distance

What next?

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>>52682330
Smith everything just to be sure.

The correct answer is to refuse to make the choice. The villain is a sadist, he would only ask the question for the joy of watching the paladin squirm. Deny them their fun.

>>52665156
It's all about frame of mind. Figure out what he wants. WHY is this choice being presented to you? What does he really want? He's not giving you this choice to fuck with you; he has a goal. Figure out what it is, then suggest an alternative, better route. You could swear servitude to him in exchange for the hostages freedom. This will make your pally a reluctant NPC enemy now, BUT this would make a great plot since the party and your new character might make it a mission to free him. That's good story writing.

>play a paladin
>that GM gets an orgasm

>>52682659
This.

>>52682659
This. Your GM sounds like a cunt. Plus, the trope of pushing this kind of shit only ever on the Paladin is overdone. Why not the cleric or the monk? Or any good character in the party for that matter?

>>52665156
Take another option and kill the kids. The Wizard can't threaten you if you kill his hostages!

>>52682250
Then he should not be playing with that GM because he is an asshole. Any GM that doesn't reward a bit of creativity is That Guy.

>>52683016
>Why not the cleric or the monk?
Clerics have more freedom in choosing what sort of alignment they want to be and would need to fuck up badly in order to fall.

Meanwhile, Monks suck so much that even playing one is generally already a fate worse than death, so they fuck them over by balancing encounters around the animal companion.
>Or any good character in the party for that matter?
Because if a LG character changes alignment, they're still capable of playing their class. Paladins on the other hand have a built in kill switch that the DM can use to fuck with them until they either fall, die, or leave the campaign.

Plus, a lot of DM's never grew out of their teenaged angst phase so having a character who is a genuinely nice person who defends the weak while expecting nothing in return sticks in their craw because "how dare you be a good person, you should be grey and morally ambiguous like muh hero ShadOW THE hEDGEhog!"

>>52682330
Pretty sure this is the plot to Professor Layton

>>52682115
> burning a village to kill a single bad guy.

Isn't that what you are essentially doing by running though? At least if you stay and fight you might have a chance to save the innocents but if you run you ensure the deaths of all the children plus whatever village they came from if it isn't already burnt to the ground.

>>52684965
I'm not OP.

But OP and his party were already beaten. The only reason they are alive is because he wants to gloat.

>>52665722
Because you're taking a chance, hoping that the villain considers a paladin's dignity to be a more tempting plaything than the lives of a few random innocents. If he kills them, obviously you will not be his slave any longer.

>>52665156
Attack the bad guy. Do your duty.

>>52684965
Not like he really has a chance. OP already said he was on 1hp and the boss had already defeated the party once. Might not even have his equipment.

Not really a situation you can fight your way out of.

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>>52665246

>>52665449
>>52665246
>Guy What Does Not Nice Things
Ugh.

>>52665829
Oh look another idiot who thinks paladins are "Lawful Stupid". So what, he gets his character killed, and then the kids get killed, and then the party gets killed? Great plan, you fucking mongoloid.

>>52665156
"Dude, if you have a problem with me playing a paladin, just say so. Don't pull shit like this."

>>52686594
Oh look someone who thinks a Pally has a luxury to turn away when evil is doing evil shit. The pally is the guy that say's 'no' to evil when it tries something, not when you're at perfect health.

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>>52665156
Falling doesn't come from doing something bad.

Falling happens when the paladin loses all of his faith.

If you're actively working for the betterment of mankind and the justice of all, then you're not going to fall.

Slay the fucking BBEG. The crimes he does are his own, and you're not to blame for the sadistic shit he does. Just because he gave you two shit choices doesn't mean you're to blame when either of them happen.

When you're forced to choose from only bad options, then make your own answer.

>mfw DMs don't know how falling works

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>>52665538
>"you are there as the fist of god"
>"the only option left is to fight"
>"fight with everything you have until evil lays beaten"
>>52665693
>"no that's just going to get children killed"
>i'll just let him kill me because that'll prevent him from killing his other hostages or taking more lives

Only one of you is worthy of being a paladin.
protip: It's the one who lacks faith in his deity.

>>52665869
Literally the best choice.

OP's DM is a faggot.

>>52666113
Exactly.

My advice, (And I seldom call for this), is to punch the DM in his dick, rape him, then pee in his butt.

Also, don't reroll. Remove your coaster from the table before you walk out.

That's not even how the supposed Paladin no-right-answer test(TM) is supposed to go.

>>52688999
>i'll just let him kill me
If the villain wanted to kill him he would have done that already.

>>52666599

In your situation, you're choosing between fucking off and prepping to kill the dude, or dying.

In OP's situation, you're choosing to kill someone or die.

I sort of doubt the GM who set this up is willing to let OP weasel out of 'lol u fall' here.

>>52666861
>>52665166
>>52665176
>>52665285
>>52665289
>>52665295
>>52665306
>>52665333
>>52665378
>>52665396
>>52665422
>>52665638
>>52665653
>>52665816
>>52665885
>>52666113
>>52666546
>>52666591
>>52666725
>>52666861
>>52670384
>>52681697
>>52681999

Genuine heroes, examples to warriors of god everywhere.

Everyone else: Well-intentioned pragmatists who think they salvage this overly contrived, meticulously set up idiocy from the DM to force the binary you-fall-no-matter-what situation on OP.

>>52677963
Gold star to this poster.