What is the closest MTG has ever gotten to a completely unremovable

darksteel citadel

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My boy here is pretty hard to get rid of.

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>>52624598

have the superior version.

>>52624350
Honestly I'd say the Devotion Gods are harder to remove than Prog.

>>52624685
>Revoke Existence
Literally in the same set as a full third of them for 1W

>>52624350
Thrun was a pretty hard one to get rid of. Sigarda can die in combat but is basically immune to non boardwipes

>>52624350
"This card cannot be removed from play for any reason"

Case Solved

>>52624598
Doesn't this dude just get killed by a tim

>>52624350
We call them Emblems and they are unremovable by virtue of not being an actual permanent.

>>52624945
What's a tim?

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>>52624973

>>52624736
>One card
lmao
Prog dies to tons of shit.

>>52624994
Ah, then yes, Norin can be removed by activated abilities, but you can always cast any spell with that ability on the stack.

>>52624968
This is the answer.

>>52624968

>What is the most unremovable permanent in MTG?

>These things that aren't permanents.

Sasuga, anon.

>>52624685
Fade to antiquity or any exile enchantment removal

>>52624968
Fucking this. It's the only reason planeswalkers are so overpowered. You need to answer them or they can never be fixed.

>>52624350
To make a permanent truly unremovable, it needs protection from all colors or shroud so it can't be targetted, indestructible so it can't get killed by WoG effects, and it would still need a contingency effect if it would get bounced or exiled; like flickering or creating a token copy of itself.

And even with all of that, there's still probably a way to get around it somehow.

>>52624861
That works as long as it isn't a creature. A card that doesn't target and removes abilities can set still set up an technically unremovable creature to be removed.

>>52625502

Nah. Much simpler is a variant of >>52624861

"This permanent cannot leave play for any reason. This ability cannot be removed or altered by anything."

>>52624350
They would need to create a new ability for it so it remains on the battlefield no matter what.

>Warrior's Spirit: This permanent can only leave the battlefield if it dies.

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>>52625577
>lose game
>have to leave card on table

>>52625000
>>52624685

???

Only thing devotion gods have is Indestructible. They're 100% vulnerable to everything that doesn't damage or destroy, including almost all the same things that kill Prog and tons more.

>>52624350

As for an actual answer, Aetherling with mana open is pretty much impossible to deal with other than with Split Second cards.

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>>52624350
>>52624598
Honestly? any creature that you can pay to go back to your hand. All those 'hexproof', 'indestructible', 'protection' can just be killed with nukes.

>>52625666
>ITT: we make cards good with minor changes
Sigarda: pay G to regenerate. It just doesn't make sense that i can so easily be killed by normal damage.

>>52625577
Except it would have to follow MtG sentence structure and grammar. So, it would be a longer, more complicated version of that. Something like

>Hexproof
>Indestructible
>~ Can not have - 1/- 1 counters placed on it.
>~ Cannot be sacrificed
>~ Cannot be countered
>If ~ 'S toughness is reduced by any means, it gains that much toughness instead.
>If ~ Is exiled, return it to the battlefield at the begining beginning of the next end step.
> A clause that prevents it from being returned to your hand
> A clause that prevents it from being bounced to your library

And you still might be able to get rid of it somehow through niche interactions that I haven't thought of.

>>52625712

No, that's a completely different thing and stupid. You're being stupid. You're assuming hypothetical Magic abilities can be only abilities that are already printed on cards when they can be literally anything.

The thing is not hexproof or indestructible. It can have -1/-1 counters on it just fine, and its toughness can be reduced to zero. It just doesn't do anything. Effects and rules that would cause it to play, even ones that don't exist yet, will all just look at it and go "sorry, my bad" because the thing specifically, directly denies leaving play.

>>52624994
>Not calling it a pinger

>>52625797
>Effects and rules that would cause it to play

...cause it to LEAVE play

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>>52624350
You will need on the battlefield:
1- Avacyn
2- Sigarda
3- archetype of endurance
4- Brisela
5- Gaddock teeg
6- Iona, chosing white.

So.. how do you guys kill them?

The real question is what combos would a "permanent" permanent enable?

>>52625781
Dies to Black Sun's Zenith

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My favorite boardwipe of all time.
What this anon said- >>52625666
Norin's probably the hardest all told since his ability removes him without any real cost. You'd just have to hold back an instant for an activated ability.

>>52625830
Merciless eviction

>>52625890
Shit nevermind

>>52625890
Gaddock teeg and Iona

>>52625890
>>52625830
I think the only way would be some sort of black creature that can give -x/-x for everyone.. do you know any?

I think there is one vampire that does that.

>>52625830

So...all this together results in what exactly?

Step by step?

>>52625977
You can't kill any of them

>>52626008
>>52626008
Yeah, that's the one i thought

>>52625830
use Jhoira of the Ghitu to suspend merciless eviction choosing creatures or evacuate

Play Ixidron

Or bane of the living

Oh man is that a bonds of mortality?

>>52624598
nevinyarls disk

>>52626008
Wurm doesn't kill Iona, who chose white.

>>52626008
>>52626024

Final Judgement is white though.

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>>52625830
Kagemaro, First to Suffer with 10 cards in hand

>>52626033
>>52625830
yeah that would do it actually

>>52626052

Cleanest so far.

>>52625830
Massacre Wurm followed by Mutilate.

>>52625830
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=247523&type=card

What stops -1/-1 effects if anything?

>>52626081
>>52626135

try again sweetie

>>52625797
No, I'm assuming that until WotC prints something with "Cannot leave play for any reason" then this hypothetical creature must follow established guidelines on abilities and effects.

Also, what's the point of having a creature with negative toughness? If this hypothetical creature had a bunch of - 1/- 1 counters on it, and was a - 10/- 10 creature, then when SBAs are checked, the game sees negative toughness, and says destroy that creature. So unless new rules are written for this creature, or a new card is printed with "Cannot be removed from play for any reason", we have to go with established precedent.

>>52626135
Can't play him with Iona out.

>>52626135
>>52626148
>white

>>52626143
Melira stops counters. Pretty sure nothing stops effects.

Is a 100% unremovable board even possible? There are way too many niche clears to cover them all.

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>>52625712

>>52626216

Mirror Gallery and an Iona for each color.

>>52626255
all is dust xD

>>52625354
But most of the time they can't activate their emblems due to needing 4-5 turns of hitting their +1 without interruption to even get them.
The fact that two Gideons can do it does not mean the rest need to uptick over multiple turns while their opponent sits on their ass not attacking them at all, while also neither player actually winning the game in the meantime.
Emblems are fine. Emblems you get right out the gate are not.

>>52626216
There's plenty of hardlocks where if you dont' have an answer on the board already it's over. Curse of Exhaustion + Knowledge Pool for example.

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>>52626216
If >>52625830 included Damping Matrix, Darksteel Forge, Leonin Abunas, Mirror Gallery, more Iona's on other colors, and several creature based anthems it'd be close.

>>52626250
You're pretty close. It would have to say, "If a spell of effect you don't control would cause Hatebear....", otherwise, you could cheese 4 unremovable creatures onto the battlefield too easily.

Nothing can escape an Overloaded Cyclonic Rift as far as I'm aware. I don't know of any cards with a 'cannot be returned to a player's hand' clause.

>>52626302
But it's already ridiculous enough for a game to progress to the previous boardstate anyway. It's just a card pool knowledge tester at best.

>>52626312
Well, Norin escapes Cyclonic Rift by default. Plus any other creature with instant flickering ability.

>>52626352

It's still removed from play. This thread is asking what's the most un-removable. If anything, Norin's the worst answer since he's constantly leaving play and is easily dealt with by activated abilities of Eldrazi Processors.

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>>52626308
i worded it right the first time

fpbp

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>>52626501
YOU ABSOLUTE MADMAN!

>>52626046
>Final Judgement is white
There are plenty of black "-x/-x to everything". You just needs to kill Gaddock

>>52626250
Dies to Humility/10

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>>52626800
NOOOOOOOOOOO

>>52626302
You'll need a couple copies of Kiras hanging out with your Ionas for each color, otherwise you're open to Resounding Wave bouncing a key part of the lock.

>>52626250
>No "then shuffle your library"

Faithless Looting, discard Hatebear, stack my deck. Seems good.

"This card cannot be removed by state-based actions, or by spells or permanents your opponent controls."

>>52625830
Add Eidolon of Rhetoric/Rule of Law/Arcane Laboratory, Linvala Keeper of Silence, and Stony Silence/Null Rod then you can really get the ol' noggin joggin.

>>52625805
How many months have you been playing magic newfriend?

>>52627414
Well as long as it's a creature or artifact, say no more senpai.

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>>52627513
Forgot my damn image like a dumbfuck

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>completely unremovable

>>52625830
Cycle Decree of Pain
Cast Black Sun's Zenith for X=8

>>52626273
Emblems as a concept are fine. Emblems in terms of balance are not always fine. Either because of where the start point is compared to where you need to get, in tandem with how good the + is, or because some Emblems create scenarios that are much harder to fight back against than others. I'm down with Emblems that give you a huge boost, but I'm not okay with Emblems that say "lol, everybody else is fucked."

>>52626250
You could also exile it off the stack with Mindbreak Trap or the like.

>>52627748
I really wish they'd errata "For the rest of the game" effects like Stigma Lasher and Praetor's Counsel as emblems and print a few.

>>52626250
Turn it face down with ixidron
dies to humility
or take control of it

>>52627626
>X spell with Gaddock Teeg out

The quickest answer is Toxic Deluge

>>52627748
Honestly, most of the emblems are SLOWER than the walkers with non-emblem ultimates.
The final ability on almost all planeswalkers essentially says 'you have basically won the game if you manages to get this to go off', the tradeoff being that, of course, you're stuck hitting + abilities until then and if they're poked at all it delays it by at least one more turn, usually more (if they don't outright die). They're a slower, grindier version, instead of 'your hand is your deck' or 'here's a shitload of damage in one go' or 'here's a whole shitload of free things, I'm sure you can win with that'
And then they decide to put these effects in on shit that can just use it immediately, which is fucking retarded.
Now that I think about it, the reason Support was such a lackluster keyword was because until way late, it could put counters on planeswalkers. Then they axed it and didn't want to rebalance everything else, so we got Yet Another +1/+1 counter mechanic. While it made Support boring as shit, I shudder to think what would have happened with walkers going off that much quicker IN STANDARD never mind elsewhere.

>>52626159
No, you're wrong. If a card would read "can not be removed from play", then a toughness of - 10 would indeed trigger the destroy rule, which would then proceed to NOT move the card to the graveyard, since it can't leave its current zone.

>>52627966
It's been suggested to them. Repeatedly.
"We want to keep emblems as something special to planeswalkers."

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>>52628021
>Gaddock Teeg out

I don't think so.

>Toxic Deluge

Gets stopped by Brisela

>>52624350
Still gets removed by sacrifice, mass exile, mass -X/-X and mass -1/-1 counters

>>52625830
wheres the one with commander?

>>52628037
Without special rules, SBAs would cause the game to be a draw, as the game tries to remove it, it cannot be removed, the game tries to remove it, it cannot be removed.

It needs special new rules to work, is all I was saying.

Also, can you block with a - 10/- 10 creature? What does it do? Why bother designing a card like this? What function does it have?

>>52625624
>card comes with a peel off back and a layer of adhesive underneath

>>52625830
>All those restrictions allow for only creatures with >3 cmc to be cast
Lol Craterhoof Behemoth gogo

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this guy's one of them

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>>52627483
Prodigal sorcerer was a "pinger" in the 90s m8

>>52625830
gary

>>52625705
>What is Damnation

>>52631049
That's the last one in the image, newfriend. Commander is the format formerly named EDH.

>>52631353
He was always Tim

>>52631353
He was "Tim" in the 90s

>>52631456
Kids these days don't understand the reference.

>>52625830
Congratulate them on assembling all that shit and swing with Blighted Agent for the tenth time.

>>52631491
>elesh norn

>>52625830
Word of Seizing Iona.
Then cast Merciless Eviction, exiling all creatures.

>>52626276
Mindslaver lock, too.

>>52633008
Oh. And Arcane Lighthouse to switch off the hexproof.

>>52631539
draw. next game?

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>>52625830
ez

>>52625830
You are smalltime:
Platinum Angel + Privileged Position + Privileged Position + Sigarda, Host of Herons + Avacyn, Angel of Hope + Torpor Orb + Gaddok Teeg + Leyline of Sanctity + Linvala, Keeper of Silence + Presence of the Master
+ Iona, Shield of Emeria (naming white) + Stabilizer + Rest in Peace + Dampening Matrix + Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir + Knowledge Pool + Mycosynth Lattice + Narset Transcendant Emblem + Sakashima the Imposter (Iona, naming Green)

>>52633095
Morph is casting a 0 CMC spell, Brisela stops it.

>>52624350

What is the out of frame head even doing?

>>52625830
Bearer of the heavens then sacrifice it to something like Sidisi

>>52633532
whoops thought bearer of the heavens exiled, nvm

>>52625712
Just be like 'if - would leave play,, it leaves play and returns instead'

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>>52625830

>>52633451
Is there anything that combo catches that the original list doesn't? And why does the second Iona name Green instead of Black?

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>>52626302

>>52633751
Iona naming green prevents Genesis Hydra shenanigans.

>>52631494
>m8
>frog
Whatever you were "referencing" from "back in the day" sure seems to be muddled by a lot of present day cancer

>>52633451
Cycle 4 Decree of Pains, then cast whatever you need to clean up the rest. Needs a pithing needle on Decree.

>>52634760
Also, you need a Platinum Angel to keep your opponent from winning with Mazes End

>>52634790
Literally the first card. Im retarded.

>>52625705
>5 toughness
>easy to kill by normal damage

Nah

>>52627483
Go to bed, grandpa.

>>52627966
Stigma lasher and praetor's counsel never have to touch any new game objects so they don't need an emblem.

>>52624350

>What is the closest MTG has ever gotten to a completely unremovable permanent?

Blinking Spirit is pretty high up there.

>>52624994
Why is it called a Tim? Also, why does blue get a fucking creature that taps to deal damage to anything? Isn't that red or black?

>>52625869
Does this include creatures in your hand, deck and graveyard?

>>52635165

It's a Monty Python reference. For another one look up Angus Mackenzie and look up the Monty Python "Prodigal Sorcerer"

>>52635165
>>52635165
>why does blue get a fucking creature that taps to deal damage to anything? Isn't that red or black?

t. NWO color pie babby

>>52635347
He forgot his line.
He was supposed to have an impressive name, but forgot it. So he just said "Tim".
People laughed, and they kept it.

>>52635704

I actually did not know that but would not be surprised if that was true.

>>52634760
Stabilizer my dude
>>52633751
The original combo loses to genesis hydra and/or cycling decree of pain and/or reanimating then sacrificing an academy rector to cheat an aura onto the battlefield (lignify, darksteel mutation, or even a mind control effect). You could probably cheat a mindslaver into play as well and do some nasty stuff there. Feasibly I bet you could burn them out with something like Purphuros or Arc Slogger as well. There are a lot of ways around it.

>>52628021
>>52631296
Brisela doesn't let you play toxic deludge or anything with cost 3 less

>>52625637
Progenitus dies to most boardwipes + sacrifice cards.
Gods don't.

>>52633451
The original was supposed to be an actual doable play. I actually have a deck with all those cards except for Brisela. Notice how all cards are only white/green. I think 3 colors plus that amount of cards starts to sound just... not doable unless your opponent did nothing the entire game.

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>all this stuff from amateurs

>>52637019
>no haste

>>52637224
Are you in a hurry?

>>52633944
Gaddock Teeg is still on the field in the situation I described. And just be to be cheeky, add Decree of Silence to that too.

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>>52635081

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>>52626250
>>52625830
Sudden Spoiling into Supreme Verdict.
Uncounterable, easy killing of any creature-based bullshit board-states.

>>52624620
I thought my pc was fucking up before I realized why it was superior, top kek anon

>>52636791
That's stupid. There should never be a situation in which more than 3 of those creatures are in play and you haven't already won.

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you nubs still haven't posted the best one

>>52635561
You don't think colors should have identities? What's the point otherwise?

>>52624945
OK, probably bad form for referring to a card type by way of a pop-culture nickname for a card that got dropped from the core set... what is it? 20 years ago? But...

>>52635165
>Why is it called a Tim? Also, why does blue get a fucking creature that taps to deal damage to anything? Isn't that red or black?
My first reaction was still "Awww, look at the cute youngster with his little deck! How sweet."

>>52633484
Are you actually retarded

>>52638044
Once upon a time, that was within Blue's domain.
So was a lot of other stuff.

>>52637586
Does that get around the "Can't be cast" restriction?

>>52637964
See
>>52637568

>>52639114
well of course it's not completely unkillable, I don't think there are any permanents that can't be removed except emblems
>inb4 karn ult removes emblems

>>52624973
millenial pls go

>>52638044
>You don't think colors should have identities? What's the point otherwise?
Originally the colors were something like:
Black - directly killing things and pay-life-for-X effects
Red - direct damage spells, glass cannon creatures, and self-sac-for-damage stuff
Green - big creatures and buff spells
White - protection and healing

And Blue's identity was "counterspells and weird shit". The prodigal sorceror was, for a little while, the only example of its type, and thus it fell under the subheading of "weird shit". Most non-blue weird shit ended up being artifacts (Howling Mine, for instance), and pretty much all artifacts were weird.

Eventually as more cards were added the lines started to blur together. They redefined the identities of the colors top-to-bottom sometime around Mirage IIRC, into something that's still fairly recognizable.

>>52639096
No, Split Second doesn't. However, nothing on either of those board states stops Sudden Spoiling from being cast. And if Iona picks black, White gives things to wipe that state even easier.

>>52639679
Brisela prevents spells of CMC 3 or less from being cast.

>>52625502
I assume:
If creature: Mirrorweave
If (Opalescence, if non-aura creature)+ Mirrorweave
If non creature artifact: March of the Machines
If anything else: March of the Machines+Mycosynth Lattice


Maybe Humility might be simpler in some cases, but I don't know how time stamp work


>>52625712
You forgot exile

>>52633451
i x i d r o n

>>52625830
toxic deluge.

>>52639820
Ahh, my bad. Read that as Gisela for some reason. Yeah, you'd have to go with some activated ability spot removal or some other trick. Thing is, if you give this theoretical board, the opponent theoretically has any cards as well as the mana to cast them.

>>52624350
planeswalker emblems are unremovable

>>52634760
Why bother with the teeg if you have the emblem? Also for extra safety, Iona + Iona Copies (e,g, Rite of Replication) + mirror gallery

>>52633451
might as well throw down a mirror gallery and clone iona or that red green creature that exiles all lands while it's in play

>>52639507
I thought blue's original schtick was do anything any of the other colors could do and sometimes better and also draw lots of cards.

>>52624350
My dick.

>>52640257
Also yes.

>>52639968

>torpor orb

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>>52640266

>>52640257
Kinda sorta, yeah. Though to be fair it was usually slower / pricier than the "dedicated" shit in other colors. But if you actually managed to set up one of the control combos it was usually completely backbreaking.

IIRC red was responsible for most of the really broken decks in the early years. Can't count the number of times i got rushed / burned down before the bottom of T2 before they started banning all the instant-mana crap.

>>52640119
It was a thought experiment. You started with Platinum Angel and then made a new boardstate that answered the solution offered to the previous level.

And to my knowledge, there's no reason to add any more Ionas. This level is supposed to be unsolvable, but there is actually one solution due to a small oversight on my part.

>>52639968
And how pray tell are you getting Ixidron into play?

>>52640018
costs 3. Can't be played.

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>>52626250

There's been wording for that, its just [Name] can't leave the battlefield.

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>>52624397
Hmmmm

>>52637537
>Decree of Silence
My associate of nubian complexion.

I fucking love that card.

>>52644229
I wish it said "equipment that's a creature equips itself"

>>52631353
No man was known as Tim.

>>52627410
You can't reorder your deck while searching.

>>52624350
Emblems

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>>52633451
>Iona with Mycosynth Lattice Out

>>52633008
can't do word of seizing with gaddock teeg

>>52642438
>use Jhoira of the Ghitu to suspend merciless eviction choosing creatures or evacuate
>Play Ixidron
>Or bane of the living

>>52635188
kek no that would be busted. Just in play.

>>52637224
Even God took six days to create the universe.

>>52645132
That's a myth. My man actually did the job in four hours, then just hung around watching Simpsons reruns* and eating porkrinds for the rest of the week. But when his boss asked about it he just handed in a timesheet with "8 hr" written in every box.


(*) = before you ask, yes, the Simpsons was already in syndication in the hour after the creation of the universe.

>>52643751
That's actually a really useful precedent, anon. I always forget about those minigame cards.

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I have an arbitrarily large amount black mana in my mana pool, and an arbitrarily large number of Decree of Pains in my hand (From Research//Development copied an arbitrarily large number of times with Reiterate). I also have priority.

Can you protect your 1/1 white Soldier creature token from death?

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>>52647854
Did you think this was going to be hard?

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>>52637019

>>52638829
What? Casting a card face down is prevented by Brisela.

>>52647925
God's last ability negates all abilities of every other object in the game.

>>52647854
Infinite mana, infinite stifles, 1 counterspell, 1 extirpate.

>>52647962
Oh, I misread it, nevermind

>>52647971
Actually, just need Summary Dismissal, Counterspell and Extirpate.

>>52637019
Loses to me calling a judge.

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>>52647854
Is this supposed to be hard?

>>52647903
>>52648005
Don't work, he just cycles a Decree in response.

>>52625830
Terminus

>>52647854
As I mentioned,
>>52647982
Summary Dismissal + Counterspell + Extirpate handles this.

Extirpate as soon as a Decree hits the yard and you get priority.Then Dismissal to handle anything on the stack.

Counterspell is just insurance if you cast one of the Decrees

>>52635188
No, those are spells.

As a blue EDH player, Cyclonic Rift is almost always my answer to anything annoying me that hits the battlefield.

I was thinking of some kind of anti-bounce equipment like this.

Iron-Link Boots - Artifact Equipment - 3
Equipped creature can always be blocked as though no abilities applied.
Equipped creature cannot be returned to your hand from the battlefield.
Equip 2

CMC of 3 adds Trophy Mage utility. I think CMC 1 might be too obnoxious.
Unsure of wording on anti-bounce, but the flavor is that the boots are so heavy that they keep you on the battlefield and also makes you lose all forms of evasion.

>>52633451
Can't someone just channel a large enough Arashi, Sky Asunder to wipe all your angels?

>>52647854
Not without an arbitrarily large number of Celestial Crusaders or Stonewood Invocations.

No finite number of split second effects can save the token, and there's no other series of steps you can't just respond to with another decree.

>>52649623
Avacyn makes them all indestructible

File: extirpate-20810-medium.jpg (33KB, 277x401px) Image search: [Google]

33KB, 277x401px

>>52649687
>no finite number of split second effects can save the token

>>52625830
Kederekt Leviathan

>>52648071
White.