/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

http://www.strawpoll.me/12699307

>>52599401
>What was the worst misstep White Wolf/Onyx Path ever made with their books?

From recent memory it would have to be the way they bungled Beast before reworking it.

>Beasts are doing bad things, but it's for a good reason and you just have to trust them, guys!
>heroes are the bad guys no matter what, went so far to compare them to male rights activists and internet trolls

I think that was the attempt to aggressively embrace SJW bullshit culture before their community told them to fuck off. Now Onyx Path does passive aggressive SJW bullshit.

>>52599401
Gypsy/Beast.

>>52599511
>I think that was the attempt to aggressively embrace SJW bullshit culture before their community told them to fuck off.

Don't forget M20, much as we'd all like to.

>>52599401
Week of Nightmares and Beast

Hey /wodg/, newbie to the games here. I'm considering running whatever the latest version of VtM is for my group since we're looking for a new system to sink our teeth into and we've all played the Bloodlines video game, but I realized that I don't really know what the "average" Vampire campaign is supposed to entail in terms of what the system expects players to be doing in a standard session.

In D&D, players typically go to a dungeon to fight monsters, and in Shadowrun you're hired by Mr. Johnson to do corporate espionage. Am I right in assuming that the standard expectation in V:tm entails the local Prince sending you to deal with the Sabbat or his political rivals in some way, or is that unique to the video game?

>>52599401
Masters of the Art for obvious reasons.

>>52599494
Who the fuck is voting for mage?

>>52599634
>Am I right in assuming that the standard expectation in V:tm entails the local Prince sending you to deal with the Sabbat or his political rivals in some way, or is that unique to the video game?

Not necessarily because it's more of a social game, but it's a good starting point.

>>52599494
Ha, Mage is beating Vamp.

>>52599841
Mage will always beat Vampire.

>>52599841
How, I'm a magefag but I cede that both vamps and werefags are better at fucking

>>52599511
>>52599521
>>52599594
So they actually fixed Beast?

>>52599864
Sort of.
Some mages will beat vampires, but most vamps will beat some mages.

Remember, vampires cum blood that when introduced to the body causes the sensation of an orgasm wrapped in heroin.

>>52599891
Uh huhhhhhhhh

>>52599905
Blood bond + The Kiss + Being able to buff dexterity and stamina beyond human levels without paradox risk.

>>52599634
World of Darkness games don't really have a standard template to fall back on. Yes, each line comes with their moral issues and existential crises that you can use, but they are more plot hooks than a template like a dungeon crawl is to DnD or a breaking an entering job for Shaodwrun.

I'd say talk to your players. Ask them what they want to experience as vampires and build a game around that

>>52599940
All it takes is Life & Mind to cause the most intense pleasure known to man and beyond.

Vampires really have to improvise.

>>52599957
That's why I said some mages are definitely better. But not all mages have those spheres/arcana and not all Mages have the dots to do that.

The powers I listed are just the standard abilities for every vampire that exists from the moment of embrace.

>>52599875
Ech not really. There is still a lot of issues both with the idea behind and narrative that the game tries to sell. People scream SJW but I'm a left winger and I find the game disgusting.

Outside of creepy shit game suffers from lack of direction, weakass antagonists, mechanical fuckups(I hit him with a building) and so on.

There is some stuff there that can be salvaged and beasts would make great antagonist splat for all other supernaturals but as it is there is little to like there(outside of Lair with is a nice idea and expansion on Demons Bolthole)

>>52599976
Let's be serious here. Any mage can make sex into a mind blowing experience. It just takes a bit of creativity. If anything, the hardest would be for Moros and Obrimos mages but with careful application of certain arcana, you can get some crazy shit done even with 2 dots.

>>52600044
>People scream SJW but I'm a left winger and I find the game disgusting.

You can be a left winger without being an SJW senpai

SJW are a specific kind of crazy authoritarian leftie

>>52600065
I feel the risk of someone paradox-ing my boner would put me off.

>>52600069
True.

Anyway at the very core concept of a monster pretending to be human is quite workable(this is what vampire is about in part) but the execution is flawed because authors got too cought up in their own bullshit(and didn't proof read)

>>52600106
I mean, let's not pretend proofreading or formatting was ever their strong side. Blood & Smoke, before it became Requiem 2E, had some horrendously amateurish editing mistakes that genuinely made me think had anyone actually checked the damn thing before they OKed the final print.

So i'm thinking about running a Prohibition era Vtm campaign for my play group, and starting them all at ellis island as immigrants.

Whats some fun shit I could have in the city aside from mobsters of all flavors and forms

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>>52600186
Keep in mind prohibition draw heavily from puritanism at its core, even if the movement itself was a joke. That could be some serious potential for Hunter interference as Bureau of Prohibition may not have been the ONLY new bureau to come around, if you get my meaning.

>>52600106

The core concept overlapping with various other splats was part of the problem.
It had a lot of similarities with various games without having a clear identity of its own.

You have no purpose and sort of mooch purposes from various other splats, devaluing them, while not doing anything interesting yourself.

Beast is the equivalent of the attention seeking That guy in a group.

Did that guy doing a chapter-by-chapter review of Beast on FATAL and Friends ever finish it?

Would a Tremere sorcerer be able to hold his/her own when facing off against a Hermetic wizard?

>>52600572
Face to face with a prepared mage? Unlikely.

>>52600319
Also all this crossover bullcrap with beasts thinking themselves kin to other splats. What the fuck does promethean have to do with a werewolf? And why are mummies and demons excluded from the big happy family

>>52600599
But why though? Thaumaturgy is potent on its own and can be devised in similar ways to the Spheres. There are a lot of Paths to choose from, not to mention other forms of sorcery entirely such as Koldunism.

I can agree on that mages edge vampires out when It comes to versatility, but blood magic has a lot of firepower.

>>52600742
Because true magic is just so much more flexible. Assuming both combatants are made with the same xp, it's just so skewed in the Mages favour.

>>52600704
>Also all this crossover bullcrap with beasts thinking themselves kin to other splats.

It doesn't have anything to do with how others relate to everyone else, Beasts think all other supernaturals are lesser Beasts, Or, in case of Mages, Hunters, etc they were touched by Beats. It's basically a shitty excuse for "everyone inherently likes Beasts on some level" because god knows they need to be even more special snowflakes.

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Isn't there magic that anyone can learn as a mortal and doesn't work off paradox. I believe reading you can even carry it over to mage, perhaps other splats too?

Anyone know or have details on what I'm grasping at?

Also the Shroud is stellaris is pretty much how I think of mages casting their mind into the universe.

One more question in the pile. Anyone ever do anything on a micro scale like as pictured, either as a plot point, adventure, or set piece?

>>52600848
this is very mary-sueish thing that "everyone likes her and if he does not he is a jerk". How can a group of writers(one obviously won't notice this) look at something that obvious and not notice they are falling for that trope

So I haven't read shit about Beast, and just going by the shit I see mentioned here, I have no intention to do that anyway, but can the fuckers from Beast be used in other splats? Say vampires or hunters fucking them up.

>>52600865
Mortal magic is just plain sorcery. You can upgrade to vampirism, lacing it with Vitae becoming a blood sorcerer in the process.

Or you can be extraordinarily lucky and awaken, becoming a mage and gaining access to true magick. Sorcery doesn't cross over to mage becomes it automatically incorporates into the true magick of their Paradigm.

>>52600868
Sure. Beasts do make some solid antagonists IMHO. Ones that no one will cry about

>>52600742
>Thaumaturgy is potent on its own and can be devised in similar ways to the Spheres
It takes years for the Kindred to improvise with their blood magics, as it is a Static practice. Mage true magic(k) is Dynamic and can improvise on the spot based on your belief / Paradigm.

>blood magic has a lot of firepower
It does have a lot of oomph, but not as much as you would think. The only actual "edge" vampires have with their sorcery is the fact they don't have anything hampering them, while mages have to suffer and deal with Paradox.

>>52600893

From what little I understand, Beasts torment/torture regular humans for no reason in particular, so would it be a plausible setup if one of their kind fucked with any particular vampire's (ancillae or elder) territory/chosen feeding spot and then said vampires got together a group of others to find out more about the cause of the disturbance, maybe even deal with it?

>>52600572
The whole point of the Tremere origins was that they lost a great deal of their original power.

The logical answer would be no.

>>52600953
Well they torment people for food but yeah vampire would probably notice after some time that people in the neighborhood are kinda off. This is something that ancillae or elder would probably want to check out. That or some weird hunter(hero) appearing from time to time and looking for something or someone. This would ping any vampires danger-sense

>>52599494
Changeling surpassed werewolf and vampire. What makes changelings the sex gods of wod?

>>52599401
Both Mage lines.

>>52601025
They're the living fantasies of the fae.

>>52600985
>The whole point of the Tremere origins was that they lost a great deal of their original power.

Except they didn't?

>>52601129
- Lost the support of the other Houses of the Order of Hermes
- Lost access to the Horizon Realms
- Most distrusted vampire clan in the modern nights
- Lost the power of True Magic and had to resort to bastardizing mortal sorcery with the shitty side effect that spells consume the substance that keeps your body working.
- Regulated to only being able to operate during the night
- Head of House is a lobotomized shifting worm perpetually fighting to not be consumed from the inside out.
- Only vampire clan with no Elders dating before BC
- Fire reacts to your body like your body is made of paper, sunlight is worse
- You have a primal manifestation in the back of your head telling you to consume and destroy that you constantly have to keep in check for hundreds of years.

>>52601129
Tremere was an idiot who bargained for the wrong thing at the wrong time. He and his brethren lost much and more.

>>52601025

Changelings are the best at getting fucked

>>52601280
The Fairest also make for the best husbandos.

>>52599586
I don't know what M20 was because I never managed to read through it.
The purple prose, man. Every concept repeated with slightly different flourished language, ad nauseam, in pure White Wolf page-padding style cubed. I recently tried to read the chapter on NBephandi. It took three pages to get across this concept: "People think the Nephandi serve demons and other infernal masters, but not really, they are just nihilists who want to have the last laugh on reality"
Reading M20 besides the rules and the Tradition descriptions is quite literally a waste of time.

Also, fucking magick.

Also the introductory fiction very ironically gets across what Mage is really about: pages of Matrix tier "philosophical" drivel, some dream sequence comprehensible only to the author then everything is on fire.

>>52599634
>>52599942

For me Vampire should be about personal horror. Questing works and is necessary to kick the game around when in a lull, but players should be happy enough exploring and interacting with the game world and each other (n-no homo)

>>52601217
What's up with Tremere's body and Tzimisce? I always thought it was Saulot who was fighting to possess it, not Tzimisce

>>52600572
I don't think anyone can reliably take on a sufficiently skilled mage of equivalent experience.

>>52601217
>- Only vampire clan with no Elders dating before BC

Giovanni?

>>52601401

Saulot is in Tremere's body, Tremere is in Goratrix' body, and Goratrix is stuck in a mirror.

>>52601353

Which is blatant bullshit, as nephandi are the ass slaves of dark gods. Some of the Euthanatos are Active Nihilists, seeking to topple orthodoxies so people can try again.

>>52601401

The thing is that the Tremere used primarily Tzimisce blood to fuel their own transformation into vampires. Hence, the Eldest would have dominion over any with Tzimisce blood, regardless of how transmutated it might be in Tremere's body.

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>Weakness: Horrible parenting skills

Always gets me laughing.

Anyway, do other splats have funny shit like this? If so, post it.

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>>52601642
That's the outdated version.

>>52601718

>the sheet is clearly meant for VtM
>you keep forcing your autism everywhere

Holy shit, how fucking sad is your real life? How fucking impotent and fat and hideously ugly do you have to be to do this kind of shit 247/, for months upon months?

Are you incapable of actually being a decent human being and not shitting up everywhere you step? Are you that fucking mentally impaired that you get autistic rage every time you see someone talk about something other than the things that you specifically focus on?

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>>52601751
>incoherent rambling

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>>52601769

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>>52601751
Calm your tits. Even magefags don't take bait half as hard as you do.

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>>52601802

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>>52601813

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>>52601827

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>>52601834

Do the magefags coordinate all of their shitposts whilst mouth breathing over Skype?

This is becoming unnecessary.

Has that one anon found that one VtM music album by Bart Dijkman yet?

>>52600866
They don't have good writers?

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FUUUUUU, I really should look whether threads have finished.

>>52595700

Life is Strange. The main character, Max, is basically an uninitiated Mage with a strong affinity for the Temporis/Temporal/Time sphere, no grasp of paradox, and she has a massive crush on her childhood galpal who dresses and acts like a Brujah wannabe.

Scarily, it was the hightlight of my recent gaming experiances. The feels left me with that deep melancholy that only certain games do for days afterwards.

>>52596837
...appropriated.

>>52597484

I actually enjoyed it, far more than We Eat Ass and All Our Friends Are Transexual Thinbloods. It isn't too biased in its approach to social issues, in this case the refugee crisis, but allows the player to be.

For example, that screen you posted, but on the other side is a small dream sequence where the
female PC was (groped/)molested by a male refugee and wanred no one would believe her and call her racist. It also doesn't paint the 'old wiccan style' mages as being all fluffy and justified, either.

All that said, it might be because I played it after All Our Friends Are Pyscopaths, and We Feed Indiscriminately.

>>52601976
DaveB is fine. Whoever was in charge of Demon also did good job. So they can if they want to

>>52601976
I think it's more of a problem with company direction and obsession over being inclusive. I mean, White Wolf was always progressive and that reflected in having more female roleplayers than probably any other game at the time, but now it's devolved into full nonsense and Beast was basically the culmination of that before they scaled back following fan outrage.

>>52601416
Oops you are correct.

>>52600704
>And why are mummies and demons excluded from the big happy family
Arisen are excluded? I thought it was just demons since demons are creatures of cold alien intelligence, not occult spook.

>>52602012
>All Our Friends Are Pyscopaths, and We Feed Indiscriminately.
Would you be so kind as to elaborate?

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>>52602012

>her childhood galpal who dresses and acts like a Brujah wannabe.

This will never not be funny.

>>52602014
The demon guy is also the beast guy. He clearly can't be trusted on wholly new properties and must update WoD to CofD forever. How would you update Gypsies to the Chronicles of Darkness?

If anyone's currently still working on the Vegas Freehold, I had a couple of ideas.
Free feel to shoot them down if you guys don't like them.

Court Rotation is not as fixed as the seasonal courts, but instead is a fairly well kept secret known only known to the Rose and Seneschal Courts and current and previous Kings/Queens of the triumvirate.
There IS a Rose. In fact, there have been many, over the years.
Each individual ruler may maintain their Court's control for as long as the Rose holds its last petal.
As it starts to die, the protections of the Freehold start to fade, and they cannot be replenished until that ruler travels deep into the Hedge (usually assisted by a couple of specially trained Rose Court members) to find a perfect Rose, and return, offering it to the individual in the following Court, who they decide to be the next ruler.
If the ruler refuses to undertake the search for the rose, then the freehold's situation will deteriorate, and it is the Seneschal Court's responsibility to apply pressure to him until he takes the hunt.
If he flat up refuses, and disaster is imminent. The leader of the Rose Court (the Enchantress) is obligated to take matters into her own hands. Assumedly killing the ruler, and seeking the Rose herself. However this will cause chaos in the Freehold until the new Rose is brought back.
Thus the Rose Court motto "There's always another Rose".

In terms of at what stage the Rose starts to fail is dependant upon the actions of the ruler, or time. The Beast Court generally start to become too cold and callous, pursuing control and order at the cost of compassion. The Beauty Court generally becomes too trusting, letting danger befall the Freehold in their willingness to see the good in everyone, or their unwillingness to take decisive action. The Gaston Court always fails when their leader completely and utterly fucks up on a gigantic scale, when he bites off more than he can chew.

>>52602130
I've watched it 4 times and couldn't grasp how the fuck she managed to hurt herself

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>>52602136
I think the deal with Demon is its totally out there and unlike anything else among the new game lines. Beast, on the other hand, clearly didn't even need to exist and is just them cobbling together pieces that could've been spread out among existing lines with some additional books. Beast-like creatures could've easily been included in the Antagonists or Night Horrors books.

>>52602173
Extremely unlucky ricochet.

>>52602173

Ricochet. Even the universe hates her.

>>52602130
I've been playing it for the first time last night and now today. I love Chloe to fucking death, she's so tryhard edgy teen. I hope Max can get blazed out of her mind with her later on. She's so sensitive, she needs to shut the world out a bit.

>>52602103

I can't think of a single vampire in the entire story that feeds in a remotely subtle or Masqurade sustaining way, the majority of their feeding likely to result in grusome deaths that would be major stories on the evening news. The majority also kill for the sake of it, and one characters turns two random associates because she doesn't want them to die.

This could all be a one off, in the Anarch Free State (and what a glorious review that is, considering:) and while it could be a one off, it's looking like a opart of the progressing metaplot will be thinbloods siring like rabbits, and doing and killing whatever they want, and the fallout this will have, while somehow making it a great and noble thing and the traditions being some terrible crime.

>>52602130

Heh, preach it. It's one of the reasons I loved it. It wears the skin of the left in the same way a serial killer would.

>>52602233
I don't think you know what "the left" is.

>>52602130
>nogunz faggot gets a gun
Whoever wrote this knew exactly what they were doing and it's great.

>>52602296
>tfw live in a no guns country
Kill me

>>52602255

Kek. Yeah, we'll go with that. You fucking got me.

>>52602296

The game is full of that sort of shit, and it was glorious.

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>>52602255

I think he's talking about the hypocrisy, in regards to her statement about guns. Much like how the left talks all the time about gun control, but once Donald Trump won the elections in the USA, there was a sudden surge in the purchase of firearms, in otherwise normally left-wing states. Or maybe I'm completely missing the point of what he was talking about.

>>52602367

No, that was part of it, and the other shots the game takes, such as the 'unreasonable and controlling' stepdad turning out to be one of the few trustworthy and reliable characters by the end. It's too much to get into here, really. It's a bloody essay all on its own.

How political are the clans in Requiem? Some material makes it seem like clans have some internal organization and can form political blocs, and then there's the position of Priscus and such, but then the rest of the game makes clan seem politically irrelevant, with covenant and personal inclinations dominating all.

>>52602255

The left... it is weak people who want to be taken cared of by daddy government, and hates strong men so they want daddy government to force itself on the strong men, castrating their strength and bringing them down to the level of the leftists. Am I close?

>>52602560

I guess the nWoD answer would be 'Whatever you like :^) '. I'm plowingt through 1e nWod Vampire right now and the vagueness is starting to tick me off.

>>52600704
Doesn't necessarily have to be true, just what Beasts think is true.

>>52600536

Yes, even doing a follow-up on Conquering Heroes. The archive hasn't been updates in months, however.

>>52602568
I actually like this, because it's more or less the same as the Aryan Paradox: the idea that the strong and superior white race can nevertheless be crushed at any moment by the lesser races (presumably due to Jewish puppet masters, who really seem like they'd be the superior race in that case) and therefore needs to be defended with extreme prejudice and paranoia.

>>52602658
I don't think that's really a paradox though.

A 6 foot 6 genius hunk can still be brought down by a pathogen

>>52602658

The very numerically inferior germanic race can of course be defeated by every major power in the world combining their force against them (especially when the germanic race wasn't even united, the northerners weren't involved, and the US was largely germanic but joined the other side because they're largely anglo as well).

It took the combined might of the world to defeat Germany for fucks sake, that should prove that they were on to something (though they were pretty retarded as well, attacking Russia, what the hell).

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>>52602560
>How political are the clans in Requiem?

Not at all. That's what Covenants are for.

>>52602706
>attacking Russia, what the hell
Russia was going to attack them, they just managed to get ahead of it. Fixating on Stalingrad was a mistake though, at least that's my view. I'm sure someone who actually studied WWII I'm real detail could tell me I'm wrong though.

Requesting Cursed Necropolis: Rio, please?

>>52602769

Yeah, maybe. The japs definitely goofed though, if they attacking Russia must have been a better plan for them.

>>52602706
>The very numerically inferior germanic race can of course be defeated by every major power in the world combining their force against them
So the Germanic race is too fucking stupid to not attack every other major power in the world (or at least in Europe/America)? That doesn't scream "superior" to me.

>It took the combined might of the world to defeat Germany for fucks sake, that should prove that they were on to something
Funny, then, that it didn't take that in the first World War, and that was with Russia dropping out.

>>52602767

Oh so they started doing photoshop for Requiem as well?

>>52602870
>everyone gangs up on you
>you still manage to hold out for years
>wow not so superior

>>52602767
Why is this book not in the pastebin?

>>52602870

Huh? It took that in the first war as well. Both wars required a vast coalition of countries to beat Germany operating basically alone (or with huge weights around their necks, like Italy or Austria).

Reading the VtR 2e rulebook right now. Could anyone here tell me what´s up with VII? Why are they slaughtering their brethren?

>>52602897
>everyone gangs up on you
I don't think you understand what makes an aggressor in a war.

>>52602903
So, suddenly, Italy isn't a huge weight around the Entente's neck in WW1? Not to mention that Hitler unwillingly dragged Mussolini into WW2, who was entirely aware that Italy wasn't prepared for it. And Germany in WW2 didn't require a coalition that large to beat it, it just got one.

>>52599634
It really depends on what you design the game to run as. Generally, VtM tabletop works best as a group of individuals who are familiar and friendly or comfortable enough with each other to work as a cohesive unit (stop that inter-PC backstabbing before it starts, it just kills TT games) and then... depends on your world. VtM has had scenarios of all stripes.

In general, 'fetch quests' like in Bloodlines don't work 100% in TT, as there is much more of a variety of things going on. Inherently, vampire can be anything you need it to be (1e was about surviving vampire society like small gangs, with occasional interacting with the elders, and the 'intro scenario' in 1e is blowing up gangbangers like orcs).

My default TT method is usually social-based, with plot threads the PCs can involve themselves into, rather than straight-up 'go to the haunted house and get the bauble' assignments. These can be there, but make sure your angle highlights the manipulative nature of vampires.

Did you have any specific plots/goals in mind?

>>52602941
It doesn't matter whether germs were the aggressors or not, just that they were ganged up on.

You're letting your bias cloud your perception

>>52602941

Are you arguing that Germany did not fight exceptionally well during both WW1 and WW2?

>>52602926

There is no definitive answer, IIRC, much like most things in VtR.

>>52601353
Eh. The person who wrote M20 believes in Real Magick, and it's part of why there's a lot of 'DON'T PLAY EVIL YOU WILL BE EVIL OR PUT EVIL ENERGY IN THE WORLD' thing.

Plus FATHER'S THRUSTING COCK. And treatises on eating local food and making a haunch of venison as proper mood-food for an RPG. And all of the redundancy and lack of explanation and 'wouldn't you like to know' setups.

>>52602945

But backstabbing and watching groups crash and burn is half the fun of playing Vampire...

>>52601401
Tzimisce, when it awakes, can possess ANYTHING that has Vicissitude.

>>52602233
Thinbloods making babies like rabbits makes sense with the Second Inquisition thing that was mentioned.

>>52602957
It's more that they provoked multiple enemies.

>>52602965
Evidently not that well. But... WW1, I'm not as familiar with, but in WW2, it was basically downhill from about 1940. The Nazis never really managed to get a handle on logistics, among many other things.

>>52603002
>evidently not that well

Again, they held up for 6 years against the three greatest superpowers only 2 decades after doing it for the first time.

That takes skill

>>52603002

You're delusional. Germany fought practically alone and required basically every other major power to combine arms to put them down. They fought on two fronts as well.

>>52602560
Requiem clans are more like families, they are typically apolitical. the Prisci exist to give the will of the clan to the prince, think of it like a mob family where branches have a head that answers to the capo or whatever.

>>52602900
Because, as a game supplement, it's not worth the paper it's printed on or the time put into the PDF. It's literally a bunch of in-character fiction from the covenants, and a bunch of unplaytested powers.

>>52602926
There's no definitive answer. IF you go back to Requiem 1e, the VII book offers three written-up options for your reading pleasure. Check out blurbs for them here.

http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/VII

I find the Houses one to be the best, as it gives you a LOT of options. The Akhud are broken, their clan discipline is overpowered.

>>52603015
>You're delusional. Germany fought practically alone
Austria don't real, Bulgaria don't real, Finland don't real, Hungary don't real, Romania don't real. The bulk of the German war was all of them vs. the Soviet Union, with a lesser theater in Africa fighting the British for control of some important seaways (and helping the Italians in the Balkans earlier on).

>>52603024
Though if you have to have it, check these two megas:

https://mega.nz/#F!YIgVwQKY!ykGezjo3qppcgHXzTKuBGQ!8N5hQYpA

https://mega.nz/#F!pBE1hYSK!DQKqkQgl8vs5mV9qaIWDnw

>>52603086

Austria was annexed in WW2, early on. The rest were very minor power hardly comparable to the beast of an alliance that was Soviets, Britain, France, and the fucking untouchable US (by virtue of the atlantic).

>>52603104
Yes... which is why the Nazis were fucking idiots for trying to take all of them on. It could have worked out if they'd stopped with Czechoslovakia... but, of course, Nazism was never going to stop there to begin with.

Can love bloom between different clans and bloodlines in the Danse Macabre?

>>52603157
Not for you, bro

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>>52602900
Real question is why isn't Dark Eras Companion in there?

Chronicles of Darkness - Dark Eras Companion.pdf
http://www45.zippyshare.com/v/blbonRzc/file.html

>>52603139
>trying to take them all on

Only they didn't.

They rekt France and isolated the Brits, conquered pretty much the entirety of continental Europe, but had to act fast and hit the Russkies because they were preparing to double cross them (the Germans planned as well, to be fair). And if Hirohito didn't hit Pearl Harbor they might've pulled of a white peace.

>>52602870
>>It took the combined might of the world to defeat Germany for fucks sake, that should prove that they were on to something
>Funny, then, that it didn't take that in the first World War, and that was with Russia dropping out.

Pretty sure that was because in WW2 Germany got a head-start on everyone else in terms of military industrialization.

>>52599494
>tfw even in this Geist is last
2e fucking when?

>>52603139

I've read some accounts that said that Hitler never thought the brits would actually declare war over Poland. And he was not attacking mindlessly, he was incoroprating German populated regions lost during WW1.

>>52603224
If I can say a nice thing about Beast in here, I like how their Reconstruction era chapter harped on the fact a given Beast can just as easily be a bitter ex slave owner lashing out at this corrupt "free" negro as much as a Beast trying to teach racists Lessons via cruelty. Beast is always best when you see their central conceit is a thin shell of very personal morality by way of your hunger they use to justify the need to eat as some grand mandate to teach the populace.

>>52603246

Germany was crippled by the treaty from WW1 that limited their army. Sure, they broke it, but they did not have extensive conventional artillery for example just because of the treaty (that's why they focused so much on rocketry, for an example).

>>52602177

There's a good game in there somewhere, something about controlling the narrative and willful blindness to the other side's points. That should go for both hero and beast alike.

>>52602182
>>52602197

I thought it was recoil and shitty grip making her shoot herself from the vid. My mistake.

>>52602367

I've always pissed off other libs with my pro-gun/individual liberty attitude. Wonder where they'll stand when they cycle back into power.

>>52602600

Link please? I heard conquering heroes is really bad and has a "magical girl" type hero

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>reading what my favourite sandnigger demon compromised blind methuselah is doing in V20
>mfw it's implied he was behind 9/11

DaveB posted some cool preview info for Scelesti on the official forums. Qliphoth are terrifying, short of arch mastery it's suicide to even be in the same area as one.

>>52603977

Wait what?

Seriously, Onyx Path should just stick to mechanical improvements because their additions to oWoD fluff tends to be more often than not undesirable.

>>52604386
Basically
>ur-Shulgi wakes up and takes control of the clan in 2000
>a week or so after 9/11 assamite holdings in the middle east are bombed, implied by the orders of the camarilla

So other than diablarie, what situation what lead to a non-Tremere vamp getting Thamaturgy?

>>52604485
I'm pretty sure it can be taught, since some methuselahs and elders have it

>>52604485
>>52604494
It's also, I think, older than Clan Tremere, they just became better at it by virtue of having been mages and sorcerers in life

>>52604485
Like others have already said you can be taught, but that would have to be a MASSIVE boon on Tremere's part toward the character.

>>52604550

Is it only from a boon of Clan Tremere though? As >>52604528 says, it's older than Tremere, ur-Shulgi is described as the most powerful blood mage and most powerful vamp mage in general

>>52604485
It can be taught, but the Tremere council has to give approval for it.

Easier to get it from an Anarch.

>>52604550
Vamp's statted NPCs have Thaumaturgy everywhere, even outside the Camarilla. An in-setting explanation could be tat the Tremere ended up owing a lot to a lot of people just to survive or that since they were so nice as to write everything down one raided Chantry was all it took to break secrecy.

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Speaking of Tremere, how would you play one? I imagine that they'd be constantly snooping on the party for their clan. Seems kind of hard to stay true to the theme of the clan without being "That Guy".

>>52604586
Sure, but it's not the same thing.

>From a purely mechanical standpoint, the blood magic that the Assamite Sorceror caste practices differs little from that wielded by the Tremere. From a philosophical perspective, however, worlds of difference separate the two. The Tremere force every piece of knowledge they incorporate into the structured, rigid framework of high Hermetic invocation. By contrast, the sorcerer caste's practices are the result of millennia of adaptation and melding, and are too truly disparate to be considered "structured in any real sense.

Then again, who'd you risk asking for lesson in blood magic - wizards or assassins?

>>52604639

Assassins, every time

>>52604627
I always thought playing as Tremere was cheating unless you're in a Chantry-centric game because their clan weakness can mean jack shit or be a crippling weakness depending on the nature of your story and how ST enforces it. But you're right, they're that guy in a party as others are still suspicious of clan Tremere.

>>52604684
playing tremere in dark ages would be a real riot

So what are Hunter games like? Reckoning and Vigil.

>>52599401
Werewolf the Apocalypse, oMage, 60% of the 2e of nMage, Geist, and possibly the biggest one, Beast.

>>52605202
>60% of the 2e of nMage,
Which 60%? The game seemed very playable and had rules that lined up to the theme and intended play style, what were your issues with it?

>>52604485
>So other than diablarie, what situation what lead to a non-Tremere vamp getting Thamaturgy?

Loads of vampires possess knowledge of Thaumaturgy besides the Tremere.

In the Camarilla, there are bloodmages outside of the Tremere's control, usually found in Anarch-heavy territories. The Tremere found that trying to openly oppose the Anarch Thaumaturges led to EVERYONE getting on their ass about it, because everybody KNOWS that the Tremere want a global monopoly on blood magic, so they made such a big deal out of it that the Tremere ended up just throwing up their hands and going "FUCK IT, FINE, DO WHAT YOU WANT!", though they still try to subtly sabotage and/or "remove" any rival thaumaturges when the opportunity presents itself... and of course, any Tremere that tries to run away from the clan is still murdered horribly.

Outside of the Camarilla, the Assamites possess quite a lot of thaumaturgical know-how. Their Sorcerers have been delving into blood-magic before the Tremere even existed, and other bloodlines often possess knowledge of it that they pass down in secret, trying to stay under the radar, though they usually lack most rituals and have a limited amount of paths to choose from.

In short, the Anarchs would be the *easiest* place to acquire rudimentary knowledge of Blood Magic. They might not be the *best* at it, but Anarchs often freely share secrets of the blood with other Anarchs, and their deals with non-Anarchs tend to be more forgiving and lenient than you'd expect from vampires.

>>52604627
I ain't telling regent a thing I'm not asked directly. The coterie might be my chance to get a leg up on the supervisor getting credited for my work.

>>52603246
It didn't even take the world, it just took Russia.

>>52605553
You try fighting a two front war smartass

Is watching Hellboy from the perspective of Nuada a good way to give someone a good idea of what Changeling is about?

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Can someone help me figure out what this passage in days of fire is about? Everything else before and after this is clear cut, but this shit is infuriating.

If it helps this comes two verses after the verse about MLK's assassination.

>>52605599
Well over 80 percent of the fighting was on the Eastern Front; the Western Front was largely meaningless.

>>52605757
Meaningless or not (which it wasn't), it still sucked away resources.

>>52599494
Vampires confirmed supreme at fucking

>>52600704
But the arisen are kin. It's just demons that aren't.

The thing about demons is, at least I think, that they don't have any real relationship to humanity. Everything that is kin has at least some connection to humanity. They either came from humans or humans are directly involved in their creation or life cycle in some way.

>>52599401
So how is Forsaken 2E? Any notable changes?

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>Flaw: Dismembered Limb
How many is too many? Could I reasonably get away rolling armless Kindred that gets things done via Ghoul retainers and various Disciplines (such as Dominate).

>>52604586
All of the blood magic types are 'different', though they use the same mecanics. Dur-An-Ki (assamite sorcery), Koldunic Sorcery, Setite Sorcery... those are all blood magic, but they predate Thaumaturgy. Hence why normally you can't learn paths of one in the other.

>>52605916
>Wolf-Blooded are now useful for more than just breeding
>normies who undergo Lunacy can become Wolf-Blooded
>inter-Uratha fucking no longer leads to evil spirit babies
>tribes now each have a favored prey (spirits for Bone Shadows, humans for Iron Masters, etc)
>Uratha heal all non-aggravated dame every turn while in Gauru

>>52604684
>clan weakness means jack shit

Yeah, that happens to a lot of the clans. But it does matter if the Tremere wants to learn anything out of clan, as in V20 it requires you to drink a blood from the teacher to learn the power. So, it does come up.

>>52604627
Just because you have loyalty to the Clan and are blood bound to the Council of Seven (by one point, so it's a pointless thing anyway) why would you think 'default mode' is 'spy on everyone?' Tremere are as diverse as any other clan and, unless there is a need to report all the goings on of the guys you're hanging out with, you wouldn't be forced to. Tremere hierarchy does not translate to 'we do not trust every other vampire,' especially for neonates and ancillae who may be on coteries with other clans. Your biggest concern is that you have a secret that can't get out, Thaumaturgy, and your blood magic makes you indispensable and reviled in equal measure.

>>52605856
Yeah I made a mistake thou I think this was changed from the older drafts of Beast(I may be mistaken thou).

>>52604684
Why are they suspicious of Clan Tremere more than any other vampire is suspicious of a vampire? Random schpoo brujah #32 should have no reason to be MORE suspicious of a Tremere than, say, they should of Gangrel #812. Unless you're allowing your players to color their characters' knowledge with their real life knowledge of the Tremere and the dastardly shit they do.

>>52605663
Dreaming yes, Lost no.

>>52606204
Why do people say werewolves scale worse than vampires?

>>52606236

Tremere can do all kinds of freaky shit.

>>52606236
Well, y'know, there's the whole "Devoured an ante and hunted down his childer"

>>52605734
PRincess Di?

>>52606005
I would physically smack you as an ST if you did that. There's a horrible Sabbat named Toy in the Montreal by Night book who is this, and it's fucking hilarious and should not exist in a proper vampire game/setting.

I can't play either of the vampire games because I just like different aspects from each and am too autistic to play with missing the things I prefer.

>nWoD rules
>oWoD basic clans and political structures
>nWoD blood potency instead of generations
>some parts of the oWoD history and metaplot
>the various unique nWoD bloodlines

I was thinking of making a homebrew merger but I fear it would just end up as an autistic brown mesh.


help me

>>52606264
Yeah, which proper Camarilla members without the right age or bent of sire/grandsire/lineage who lived through it and TALKED about it, or the right lores (and reason to know those lores) wouldn't know. It may be common OOC knowledge but the pogrom against the Salubri was good; they're reviled throughout the Camarilla as diablerists, the Tremere hide their own taint in that (hence why they are no longer called the Usurpers in vulgar argot) and are a pillar of the fucking Camarilla. Unless a PC has a reason to know that this happened 900 years ago, that shouldn't affect it. If it's the player doing it because they know, call them a fucking metagamer and kick them out of the game.

>>52606292
Vampire Translation Guide is what you need, which talks about pick-and-choosing aspects of what you want from both.

>>52604627
I played Tremere Oraculum once (focus on Auspex, and divination-related Merits and Rituals) - turned out pretty bad because ST was running the game like D&D with majority of the session taken by combat (which I sucked at). But I guess it can work in principle.

If I were to play one again - posh cunt in suit focused on Dominate with multiple dots in Resources that you couldn't tell from Ventrue.

>>52604903
It really boils down to if you're in Tzimisce territory. If you're not, you're no worse than Nosferatu. which isn't all that bad if you're in Prague or Vienna.

>>52606275
>There's a horrible Sabbat named Toy
Tell me, did you look at the image of the post you're responding to?

>>52606309
Nigga it's not like the Tremere spawned out of the fucking ground, even if the Salubri were demon worshipers it would still mean Tremere diablerized him.

Plus everyone knows what happened, they just play nice because they're the most powerful clan in the Camarilla when it comes to raw power.

>>52603977
Wait, hes hard into the path of blood, doesn't that forbid killing mortals

Can you consume the soul of a mortal in requiem? Sort of like diablrie.

Is there a Technocratic Union take on the "Freedom ain't free" pasta?

>>52606510
Except bog-standard Cammie #321 normally don't believe in the Antediluvians, as that is a MYTH and laughed off as such. People who espouse that are handled as Gehenna cultists (IE: murdered).

>>52606637
In Requiem 1e, there's a faction of the Ordo Dracul, Sworn of the Locust, that can. They get some benefits, but it's temporary, and fades after a certain period of time.

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>>52606005
It can't be helped...

>>52606691
You do realize that no one actually buys into Camarilla propaganda right? IIRC in one of the chronicles it's treated as a flaw

For fuck's sake Britain was ruled by a 4th gen, the prince of Buenos Aires is 4th gen, Constantinople was ruled by a triumvirate of 4th gens, some of the founders of the Camarilla itself are 5th gens.

>>52606708
Cool. I'll look that up and see if there is something like that for 2e.

Is it still a mechanic that if you drink the blood of some other supernatural you temporarily gain some sort of effect?

>>52606780
There's nothing like that for 2e.

And not that I can recall.

>>52606758
Doesn't meant the DEFAULT SETTING presents itself like that. And ancients are a known phenomeon. Mythical Biblical dudes who are gonna RISE UP AND EAT US ALL ZOMG!!!!!1111one is not a party line. It's why shit like Archons exist (one of their jobs is to root out and destroy Gehenna cultists). And yes, I know there's a Flaw for it, the Flaw represents you not being able to even believe it when presented by evidence, you're so brainwashed. 13th Generation Sally Mae Franklin, Embraced in Wichita 25 years ago, would have NO FUCKS TO GIVE about Tremere and their 'founder ate an Antediluvian' because, unless her sire cared to tell her and it affected them in some way, she'd have NO NEED to KNOW in-game about it. Ascribing all of this OH EVERYONE KNOWS undermines a lot of the core Camarilla setting, mate. Even the elders and shit deny it, even if it's a measure of convenience to toe the party line.

It's fine if EVERYONE in your game doesn't buy into the party line, but don't treat it as if it's 'laugh behind the hand, it's an unspoken, known secret'. Because it's not, by the DEFAULT setting.

Who is stronger, ventrue or tremere?

>>52606936
>13th Generation
I thought we were taking about Kindred, not some fancy Ghouls.

>>52606936
Gehenna cultist =/= not believing the Camarilla's bullshit.

>13th Generation Sally Mae Franklin, Embraced in Wichita 25 years ago, would have NO FUCKS TO GIVE about Tremere and their 'founder ate an Antediluvian' because, unless her sire cared to tell her and it affected them in some way, she'd have NO NEED to KNOW in-game about it.

Until one of the primogen of her city pulls her aside and tells her all of this in a power ploy against the Tremere.

Or a Nosferatu lets it split.

Or she searches online for her condition, and comes across the leaked Book of Nod.

Or a friendly ancilla tells her to avoid the Giovanni since they got their starts by devouring an ante.

The Camarilla's bullshit is so obvious that by this point it's just a lie they agree to tell each other

>Ascribing all of this OH EVERYONE KNOWS undermines a lot of the core Camarilla setting, mate. Even the elders and shit deny it, even if it's a measure of convenience to toe the party line.

But everyone most likely DOES know. Tzimisce and Lasombra were diablerized 5 centuries ago, when her grandsire was probably still kicking around.

>setites are offered a role in the camarilla
>they accept

What happens?

Any word on a PDF for Tooth and Nail?

>>52606253
>Why do people say werewolves scale worse than vampires?

Because Vampire get progressively better at their disciplines and their disciplines are more brute in application. Punching harder, controlling more, more stealth, etc.

While werewolves start stronger than vampire (like all gifts are the equivalent of a level 3 power) but just stay there branching out and learning more trick. So they never get the equivalent of level 5 disciplines but they got more tools to use for more situations.

>>52606758
>the prince of Buenos Aires is 4th gen

Can you tell me more about this? I am curious

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>>52607188
This bad bitch.

>>52599401
>What was the worst misstep White Wolf/Onyx Path ever made with their books?

M20 with the Goatboy brucatto, hiring David Hill Jr, desciding that drama in NWoD is gonna be internal instead of external. Last one means that in OWoD the pressure to be a monster/participate was in the society that surrounded you (Traditions pressure you into a belief and a war, garou nation praised you when you behave like a dick, vampire clans and sect put you in a place whether you like it or no) so the drama was in whether your character accepted that role or not but beyond that the mindset of your character was your own to mold.

NWoD made the whole conflict internal, most organizations are pretty much hands off on what you do most of the time, ranging from very liberal (like the orders) with a few exceptions to being meaningless like the tribes. However the "drama" comes from the game telling you "you character feels THIS way and fuck you if you think otherwise"

Werewolves are ALL about the hunt no matter the concept, mages are all obsessive no matter the concept and changeling have their personality traits define before the game start with how they escape and are all backstabbing motherfucker who can be trusted. It takes a lot from the creativity of players without giving anything in return more than "theme cohesion" that can be just talked OOC before starting the game.

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Daily Reminder
Magecucks believe you can roll a 12 on a d10

>>52607303

All this seems to really boil down to is "I like one setting more than the other", since oWoD was pretty up front about how you should be playing the game and how your characters should feel as defined by their factions.

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>>52607815

>>52607815
Its simple, we just kill 10 and 11!

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>find the Beast: The Primordial rules online
>try to talk to my friends about it as a way I could try and get into WOD
>they call it otherkin bullshit and laugh
I-I just wanted to show them a cool game I found

>>52608137
Try again with a better CofD game. Like werewolf, vampire, mage, changeling, geist, demon, mummy, hunter or any of the others!

Okay I kid about geist, it is the only other one which left me as cold due to 'what the shit do we do now' like Beast, but it has much cooler fluff and a good GM can make you guys have a stronger through focus.

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>>52599401
Why does the world of darkness feel so stiff? Everything is so rigid.

They define our characters for us before we even get to the creation process.

How they are or how they must act or else it's breaking writer's vision of how the world is? They don't leave much up to the player's creativity.

Basically, they build up this amazing playground for you to stomp around in, but you can only use the swings and go down the slides how they want you to. Any other way is simply incorrect and they chastise us for it in every chapter.

As a result, it doesn't feel like there's any meaningful way to play this. Your life and your character can't affect anything. Not even themselves.

I get that it's a dark world, but ok, how do I make a character's life mean shit? Some st's seem to equate making your characters weak, feeble, and miserable at every chance with having a mature plot with character development. What if my character wants to make best of being undead?
.What if being undead was a saving grace compared to whatever mortal life they had before? What if my character wants to grow and overcome the shit hand life dealt them?

I get it's the world of darkness, but does that mean my character has to be a mopey bitch, that has some deep internal soliloquy about how much he hates unlife every time I'm in a scene?

Everything in the wod feels feels like a Calvinist sermon sprinkled with SJW pandering snowflake shit. Is this an st issue, is onyx path up their own ass, or is this all in my head?

>>52608315
Is this a copy pasta I don't know about?

>>52607840
>All this seems to really boil down to is "I like one setting more than the other", since oWoD was pretty up front about how you should be playing the game and how your characters should feel as defined by their factions.

Not really, as my complain about NWoD is about mechanics that enforce a mindset as oppose to OWoD which had no mechanic (for the most part, i didnt play anything beyond the big 3) that determine what your character feel.

Also the owod games didn't define what your character feel more than said "your character is from X faction so the supernatural society of choice is gonna push put pressure for you to fit the mold" with a few exceptions (like purebreed which is a whole mess on its own)

>>52608360
No... I'm new to wod. I just wanted some clarification, I guess.

First you are 100% right.

>>52608315
>Everything in the wod feels feels like a Calvinist sermon sprinkled with SJW pandering snowflake shit. Is this an st issue, is onyx path up their own ass, or is this all in my head?

Second, no it not all in your head. Is onyx path being in their little safe echo chamber where everyone think the same way they do.

>>52608364

I guess I just don't see the difference between doing it mechanically and doing it through "social pressure". The end goal is the same: the writers of the game would like you to play a certain way, with one being by mechanical incentives and the other being in-universe incentives. They're both telling you how to play, and neither is inherently worse.

You're not going to opt out of the need of the Nation, and you're not going to opt out of the needs of The Hunt, because either iteration of WoD isn't super interested in true sandbox games.

>>52607815
Do you hate Mage THAT much? You can hate the players, but don't hate the game.

>>52608424

>griping about echo chambers on 4chan

>>52608315

I'm going to be completely serious about this: you should really consider playing Urban Shadows instead. It's exactly what you want, and I think what a lot of people who post in this thread would actually really like.

>>52608490
Literally the only reason anons hate Ascension/Awakening is due to the fact that mages are so damn powerful compared to most others.

If anyone can give me another legitimate reason, I'm all ears.

>>52608315
>What if being undead was a saving grace compared to whatever mortal life they had before? What if my character wants to grow and overcome the shit hand life dealt them?

The entire point of Vampire is how it ultimately isn't worth it; for it to go against the grain kind of defeats the theme.

>>52608553
I don't like it because it seems like the most boring of them all (excepting Mummy). I've tried reading the books, even joined in a game but it just isn't my style I guess

>>52608553
>If anyone can give me another legitimate reason, I'm all ears.

Well, I'm not fond of how long it takes before you can throw fireballs around, but I'm aware that this kind of fits the style of game Mage is, being WoD and all.

>>52608721
Mystery/Sci-Fi or whatever genre Mage is requires a pretty top notch storyteller in my experience.

>>52608424
>>52608501
I liked White Wolf as a kid. I own all of their books from first edition but never had many people to play with.

But once I did, I hated having to tip toe so delicately around all their pre-established lore.

Where I had to memorize facts that were pretty obscure and I never felt the freedom to create my own self-contained events or grant my players the freedom to define themselves in the world instead of letting the world define them, or every small thing conflicting with lore in some way.

Some people get upset if you're too strict with enforcing canon but also pissed if you don't enforce it enough.

I just like the freedom to decide how I run things, while using what they gave me as a guideline, that I don't have to follow in too strict of a way.

The owod calendar technically ended in the early 2000's and kindred history is as turbulent as all hell and the hands of power are constantly shifting. Am I really hurting anyone or anything if I change a typically camarilla city into a sabbat city or an anarch contested area?

>>52608746
You aren't hurting anyone and I encourage some ST bravery; but as the game itself notes, stuff like that shouldn't be done lightly. A city changing hands has repercussions, both internally and externally.

Say the Camarilla take the city from the Sabbat; you're going to see desperate counterstrikes, elder maneuvering and politicking and all kinds of other shit which the ST must be ready to include to make it believable

>>52608733
Why would a mage waste effort on a fireball?

>>52607146
>PDF for Tooth and Nail

https://www.sendspace.com/file/wzzt5u

Enjoy!


Anyone have Cursed Necropolis: Rio ?

>>52608746

No, you're not, but if you feel like you have to tip toe around the lore, you really should consider playing a game with a more open setting, that you can just add WoD flavor into.

>>52608833
Thanks! Also unfortunately no.

>>52608553
It's more than that. Mages can solve nearly any splat specific issue with relative ease, such as a Moros decimating any single (or group thereof) Strix or an Acanthus re-writing the stress out of changeling's lives, a Thyrsus re-working Spirit bans and Fate in general determining the various supernatural societies.

Mages should be trump cards, a last resort but powerful option, and potential ally. Even a newly Awakened mage will entice an ancient Kindred Prince.

>>52608553
I would find it a bit weird given that games like pathfinder prove that people are perfectly willing to put up with imbalance in the game.

>>52609361
Are you saying we're not as mature as the turds that play Pathfinder?

Or rather, if they can deal with it. Why can't we?

>>52608796
WIZAAAAAAAAAARD

>>52609304
y'know, here's a question I don't think I've seen asked in these x vs. mage things.

...what happens if, say...the vampire brings a sleeper along to watch?

>>52609460
If the mage is clever, he/she will subtly exterminate the Sleeper before it becomes too much of a nuisance.

>>52609502
mm, yeah.

...honestly if it's a fight and the mage already doesn't exactly have much Wisdom to go on he could probably just...shoot him.

>>52608796
>>52609442
>Why would a mage waste effort on a fireball?

Raw intimidation.

In the CoD/WOD, even those ignorant of the Arcana/Spheres, know that a wizard capable of such magical feats is definitely someone not to be fucked with.

Fireballs often are not the most effective means of attack by mages proficient in Forces (*cough* gravity control *cough*), but fireballs are not subtle. Sometimes the mere demonstration of such an attack against an inanimate object can dissuade a belligerent that engaging in violence against the mage would be very imprudent, if not terminal. Gross displays of power can end a battle before it begins.

>>52608796
it's cool. like, if I was mage I would be the exact kind of dumbass that would throw around fireballs.

>>52609399
Not that really, it's actually kinda hard to put into words.
I guess what I'm attempting to get at is that I don't really see the issue with inequality between the splats given that if one ever appears in another's game its either as an antagonist in which case the ST should be balancing them as appropriate anyways or as an ally/another player in which case the imbalance isn't likely to affect the game much.
It would make more sense if the imbalance was a huge one, like say between a 3.pf fighter and wizard, but it isn't, especially not when you take into account that typically all the players are going to want to spec themselves into completely different fields.

>>52609460
>what happens if, say...the vampire brings a sleeper along to watch?

The vampire will be ash, and if the mage is merciful and the sleeper very lucky, the Quiescence will remove his memories of the experience.

A sleeper will present a nuisance and require a negligible increase in effort by the mage, but the outcome will not change.

>>52609361
Really? Have you actually been to their threads here and elsewhere? Have you *not* seen the shitstorms started over 'caster supremacy' and 'fighters never getting nice things'?

They deal with it the exact same way anons have been advising others do for crossover games here: acknowledge that there is imbalance and work to minimize the impact it'll have on the game. Don't mix wizards/mages with far weaker classes/splats but if you do, make sure everyone gets their chance to shine.

>>52608796
>Why would a mage waste effort on a fireball?

Because it's one of the most proficient ways to incinerate vampires and their havens.

>>52609637
A regular ass Molotov does almost the same thing without all the magic work.

>>52609671
Yeah, but it isn't as WIZAAAAAAAAAAAARD

>>52609671
For a molotov you need
>gasoline
>a bottle
>a rag
>a lighter

And it's very conspicuous

>>52609304
Can Moros really take on the Strix that easily though?

>>52609705
Don't forget a bit of motor oil to make sure the burning mix adheres to things.

brb swat team at the door

>>52609705
>And it's very conspicuous
And shooting a fireball isn't?

>>52609773
I meant to carry around and then lob.

With a fireball you just flick your wrist and you're done

>>52609734
it only takes a single dot of the Death Arcanum to troll the Strix. Shadow owl? Nope, shadow penis.

>>52609734

Once a mage becomes an Adept, the answer to the question "can a mage take on X threat" is, with rare exception, "yes."

>>52609808
What about the strix possessing people? Do you give them a shadow penis inside them? Is it hot?

>>52609814
You have a sick mind.

I like you.

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So yeah, Rochester Mystery has been revealed, and I... Might have made a mistake.

>Rochester's naturally a shithole. Some guy used Imperial Dynamics to make it more like Atlantis through retroactive history manipulation.
>We kill the Scelestus who was trying to use that for Abyssal bullshit by tackling him through a portal, dispelling all his Magic with ludicrous use of Willpower and Fate boons, then kill him by riding him down from the top of the Empire State building
>He pancakes, we take a single point from the Charmed condition, then we dispell his "retcon my death" spell he had hung
>We then get back to Rochester and decide to fully investigate the spells without a time constraint, and realise all the aforementioned information
>Lacking any way to normally stop the Imperial Practice, we decide (stupidly) to expose it to Dissonance
>Thus we dispel the Mind spell stopping people from thinking about all of the temporal retcons
>The Imperial Practice is eaten by the Abyss... Only for us to realise perhaps we shouldn't have simultaneously exposed 600,000 Sleepers to Dissonance
>In the wake of the spell, what I can only assume is a Rank 5-6 Gulmoth, or perhaps a weak Annunaki pops though. Its summoning condition fulfilled.

We're... Honestly thinking about leaving this for the Exarchs to deal with.
Because fuck. Why the hell do we, Gnosis 3 Mages have to deal with this?
Fucking amazing for beats though, I swear to God.

>>52609773
>And shooting a fireball isn't?

No one will remember the fireball due to the Quiescence.

>>52609771
>brb swat team at the door

Mastigos: "These aren't the wizards you're looking for..."

Police: "Hold up, guys..., this is the wrong house... it's not the people we're looking for..."

>>52609734
I'd have to dig up whether strix count as undead, spirits, or something else entirely.

>>52609908
They're shadows according to DaveB. You only need Death to affect them.

>>52609894
>Mastigos: "These aren't the wizards you're looking for..."
Alternatively: "Wait, shit, I'm a Space specialist" and then teleports away leaving the rest to be arrested or vaporize the cops as they see fit

I'm not too familiar with WoD lore; are mages basically just physical gods?

>>52609945
>WoD
They're people who can rewrite reality when people aren't watching.
And even when they aren't, they can't stray too far from what's "accepted".

>>52609932
That's really the type of thing that should get printed somewhere. Not to many groups actually keep up with what gets said on the forums.

>>52610002
I guarantee you one of the magefags here has a DaveB folder with all of his relevant posts.

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>>52608693

But the real issue is, that for (at least the socially disfunctional, ie most) the general playerbase and the majority of horror fans, becoming a oWoD vampire would be a dream come true.

Maintain a strong connection with your humanity, and your new 'life' is likely to be a thousand times better than running the ratrace for a few decades and then if you are lucky dying old and in a pool of piss.

Jack's little speech at the intro to Bloodlines isn't far off the mark, and that's just the base level. Image related. You basically get confirmation that the supernatural is real, and thus reality as a whole gets a whole lot more fucking interesting. Vitae is literally the greatest thing ever, a sensation you never could have dreamed of. Any friends you make, any bros, are likely to still be around centuries ahead. You have all the time in the world to do whatever, from shitpost, to become a hundred different authors across centuries, to pioneer a newly discovered science.

Frankly, the 'theme' is emo bullshit.

>>52610002
>That's really the type of thing that should get printed somewhere

Well, that's precisely the type of information that should be included in the Crossover Chronicles. Unfortunately, the book(s) probably will not be released before 2025.

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>>52610030
Dave Is the Hieromagus, his word is practically gospel.

Some say he's more than even that.

>>52610030
>I guarantee you one of the magefags here has a DaveB folder with all of his relevant posts.

Or, simply search 4plebs or the OPP forums for "DaveB" and "strix."

>>52610030
It's pretty easy to find them all, just search on the OPP Forums by username, and 4plebs by tripcode.
Does he post anywhere else important?

What Dark Era should I run?

http://www.strawpoll.me/12706254

>>52610050
>Dave Is the Hieromagus, his word is practically gospel.

DaveB is an Exarch, his word is oppression.

FIFY.

>>52610088
>Does he post anywhere else important

He also posts on the Something Awful WOD megathread.

>>52609939
>leaving the rest to be arrested

lol, sleepers trying to arrest, no less imprison, a mage.

#suicidebymage
#stupidsleepertricks

>>52610126
I mean some might not want to just vaporize people, not everyone is Mysterium.

>>52599401
Why are some of the retcons and lore so fucking awful?

Has onyx path gone full she to atone for the fact that their older books were pretty racist in their depictions of Asians or African vampires or how the Ravnos clans are pretty fucking racist?

Also, why do the Gangrel and Ravnos hate each other again with such bitter enmity? It makes no sense. They are nominally connected. Their entire relationship is shit.

Makes no sense. Like, at best their relationship should be like the annoying little kleptomaniac cousin that drags you into their gypsy hijinks from time to time. Not bitter, kill on sight foes.

>>52608445
>You're not going to opt out of the need of the Nation, and you're not going to opt out of the needs of The Hunt

Except that you can change the nation, which as a side note is the whole point of werewolf, or you can pay lip service to it and do your own thing. You cant change your fundamental nature because is imposse on you regardless of your character personality.

For example, people might call me a nigga and society might group me with them because of my skin color but i in my mind dont relate to them nor do i care for them, there a story of multiple branch there. I can fight the society that puts me there and win or not, compromise with it or even learn to live with it.

However if when i hit puberty i got a massive craving of watermelon, fried chicken and pointing guns sideways there is nothing i can do about that. I will be a nigga regardless of what i want and cant never escape it.

>>52609304
>>52609808
>>52609811

So why doesn't the local Prince hire a Moros/Death mage to deal with the bloody owls then?

>>52610138
>some might not want to just vaporize people

What, are you some bleeding heart Libertine?

>>52610251
Crossovers aren't really a thing.

>>52610038
This is the classic example of something that sounds cool until you realize what it really means.

Sure, it'll be fun for a few years, decades, even centuries, but remember; you're here forever, just a pawn in the great game of Jyhad. And a single slip up can end in your death; or an even more horrible fate...

>>52608746
>Where I had to memorize facts that were pretty obscure and I never felt the freedom to create my own self-contained events or grant my players the freedom to define themselves in the world instead of letting the world define them, or every small thing conflicting with lore in some way.
>Some people get upset if you're too strict with enforcing canon but also pissed if you don't enforce it enough.
>I just like the freedom to decide how I run things, while using what they gave me as a guideline, that I don't have to follow in too strict of a way.

My last masquerade game our DM came and said "okay guys, we will play masquerade in new england using dark colony, except that X city will have just change hand from the sabbat to the masquerade and caitiff are almost a clan.

Abrihanes are a kinfolk bloodline, is revised but gangrels are still in the camarilla.

You in or you out?"

If you put your changed forwards on the recruitment then i dont see whats so restricting about the setting.

>>52610280
>or an even more horrible fate...

Owing favors to the Tremere?

>>52610259

>Mysterium Supremacy

>>52608553
>If anyone can give me another legitimate reason, I'm all ears.

The fact that awakening make direct combat magic an almost unsable option piss me off. I dotn want to be a boring ass fucker masturbating in my sactum until my enemies dies or something that could though as an accident. Thats for pussies, real men go with obvious magic fireballs and thunders not weak sauce ass shit like a making a gas leak explode with magic.

>>52610251
>So why doesn't the local Prince hire a Moros/Death mage to deal with the bloody owls then?

Mage are not lackeys or cheap mercenaries hired out to vampires or anyone else. They are powerful beings, concerned with their own Obsessions and Mysteries, and not the insignificant trials and tribulations of undead parasites.

If a vampire prince wants the help of a mage, he needs to treat the wizard with a great deal of respect and offer him something of value for his assistance (and mages normally don't need vampires for money or material comforts).

Quite frankly, many mages would consider vampires and strix killing one another a win-win scenario.

>>52610251
>local Prince hire a Moros/Death mage to deal with the bloody owls

So, Obrimos aren't good enough?

>>52610335

Come on now, the Moros are just so much better than you when dealing with vermin such as the Kindred. Don't be a denier.

>>52610030
>I guarantee you one of the magefags here has a DaveB folder with all of his relevant posts.

I have found that when houseruling mage DaveB answers to be the most useful.

If i see something that seems OP and DaveB says it isn't and it was the intent then that means it is definitely OP and should be nerfed because dude is fucking idiot.

>>52610321
So you want to go ham on some monsters? Nothing is preventing you from doing that.

just getting into this, and I have to ask; what's wrong with Beast: The Primordial? I kind of like the idea of being a big monster dude.

>>52610408
Trying to pretend that horrible monsters are anything but

>>52610408
>I kind of like the idea of being a big monster dude.

The problem is all the other baggage that comes with Beast.

>>52608693
>The entire point of Vampire is how it ultimately isn't worth it; for it to go against the grain kind of defeats the theme

Not really for the theme to have any meaning you have to have contrast. You should have characters that live perfectly happy unlives that seen from without seem not worth it but the character themselves are perfectly happy.

If being a vampire is such a shitty existence as the game seem to go on and on forever as a nagging bitch then the only rational option is go with the ravnos and all walk to meet the sun and save us "Woe is me" whinning. Because there isnt any hope as the setting constantly hammers is the lack of one.

>>52610038
>Frankly, the 'theme' is emo bullshit.

Agree

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>>52610372
Mage, Mummy and Demon are the OP game-lines by intent, anon.

>>52610399
I want to throw fireballs, thunder and that not being a mechanically shitty option. I want mage to not be a game of "who snipes you first from the other point of the city".

>>52610431
>Mage, Mummy and Demon are the OP game-lines by intent, anon.

Read
>and should be nerfed because dude is fucking idiot.

>>52610431
Whyyyyyyyy would they do this.

>>52610446
Or who's best at coming up with convoluted circumstantial bullshit to keep your doom spells covert?

>>52610446
Magic is dangerous. You also need to grasp at the many different ways of defending oneself from hostiles.

>>52610456
>Whyyyyyyyy would they do this.

Because life (and unlife) isn't fair.

WW/OPP realized in 1e that trying to achieve balance among the splats was both impossible and often inconsistent with the themes and setting of the various individual game lines.

>>52610462
>Or who's best at coming up with convoluted circumstantial bullshit to keep your doom spells covert?

Fucking hate that. Eat paradox like a man beside is awakening, paradox is barely anything serious.

Normally i houserule away quiessence and let player go with obvious magic with only paradox to worry about.

>>52610472
>Magic is dangerous. You also need to grasp at the many different ways of defending oneself from hostiles.

I would preffer if the game favored face to face encouters instead of impersonal masturbation sessions in the sactum. I really should look at how nerf sympathetic magic instead to favor face to face one.

Maybe either removing exceptional success from casting sympathetic or adding an aiming roll that add successes to the attack when face to face.

>>52610446
>I want to throw fireballs, thunder

And you can if you want, and sometimes it's a good option.

However, the CofD/Mage is not a superhero or similar setting, and a system that encouraged or allowed regular use of obvious, spectacular magic would not be compatible with Mage's horror setting (or even standard urban fantasy).

>>52610456
Because crossover was never an intent and having supernatural types of varying power levels allows for exploration of different game types.

>>52610517
>(or even standard urban fantasy).

Except that in ascension there wasnt any fairy dust that erase people memories of magic. And setting like dresden files in which people cast fireballs and nothing happens.

Too bad dresden files is made in a shittier system than wod.

Why is fortitude the weakest fucking discipline? Why is aggravated damage such bullshit?

>>52610428
Look, all WW games are a metaphor for a real world issue; vampire is about addiction. Yeah, you're at the top of the world, the stuff you're doing is incredibly, but then you find yourself feeding on kids to get your next hit, on a downward spiral with no end. Remember that Caine was cursed, not blessed.

>If being a vampire is such a shitty existence as the game seem to go on and on forever as a nagging bitch then the only rational option is go with the ravnos and all walk to meet the sun and save us "Woe is me" whinning

There is a way out, it's called Golconda, and it's up to the ST to decide what to do with it.

>ecause there isnt any hope as the setting constantly hammers is the lack of one.

Welcome to Gothic-Punk, hope you enjoy your stay

>>52610589
>Why is fortitude the weakest fucking discipline? Why is aggravated damage such bullshit?

What edition? And what game, requiem or masquerade?

>>52610515
>Dark Archon

>>52610601
>Welcome to Gothic-Punk, hope you enjoy your stay

Thats not really gothic punk, just emo bullshit.

As for the themes of the games, to be fair, as OPP forums have taugh me. The people making this game have good concept but are idiots making those concepts into the game.

So the best one can do is find yourself the themes you think the game is about and ignore the creators intent.

For example mage is like deadpool, created by an idiot and improved by other people that ignore said idiot´s vision.

>>52610619
>Dark Archon

Whats that?

>>52610589
V20. Makes physical disciplines sucky.

>>52610455
Why should there be balance between the game lines? Why should a changeling or hunter be as powerful as demon, mummy or even vampire?

>>52610602
V20 of Masquerade. Physical disciplines don't feel fun at all. But I guess combat isn't supposed to be fun.

>>52610679
>Why should there be balance between the game lines? Why should a changeling or hunter be as powerful as demon, mummy or even vampire?

Better question is, if the devs have such contemp for the crossover then why the fuck do they share the same universe and system.

Get off of their lazy asses making fucking D&D with dogs and make them all into different systems which would serve each line best than having 1 shitty universal system.

>>52610700
>V20 of Masquerade. Physical disciplines don't feel fun at all. But I guess combat isn't supposed to be fun.

Yup, is problem with OWoD that it got weird with aggravated damage. Not as bad as 1st ed NWoD but still. And yes combat isnt fun in OWoD, is more or less where the whole system collapses.

>>52599401
Whose got CoD: Dark Eras Companion?

The recent one

>>52610712
Balance makes no sense and equality doesn't exist.

Such a fact still does not stop you from making good crossover games. Not everything is about combat. The only exception is Mage, because they do everything better than everyone.

>>52610745
Look in the thread, buddy.

>>52610730
Is there a way that can be fixed? I want to improve it.

>>52610712
Are you actually retarded? Serious question.

>>52610679
>hunter be as powerful as demon, mummy or even vampire?

Thing is that hunter should be a treat to all supernatural, not one on one but organized and informed enough they should be a credible threat.

Except idiots like Dave who are so autistic in just 1 theme of their line make ruling fucking with that. I would love to use hunters as a threat to mages but following mage rules thats impossible unless i stretch credibility and make ALL hunter sleepwalker or just houserule it away.

Which sure i can do, but again taking anything DaveB says and doing the opposite seems to result in a more balanced mage.

>>52610446
>>52610455
>>52610712
>t. vampfags
Being a less powerful game line doesn't invalidate it. Changeling is probably the weakest supernatural but probably has the most compelling premise in cofd

>>52610755
>The only exception is Mage, because they do everything better than everyone.

My main problem is mage unfortunately, i dont care about neither demon nor mummy.

>>52610771
>Are you actually retarded? Serious question.

Are you? Serious question

>>52610768
>Is there a way that can be fixed? I want to improve it.

Well the problem with OWoD combat with vampire is the following issues.

Damage rolls are awful.
Health is a set number.
Defending is stupid game.
Unbalanced disciplines.

You would need to first replace damage roll with automatic damage and nerf all weapons.

Also health would need to get higher or just add stamina to it.

Defending is an issue, i would make combat a (Attack roll vs Defense roll----> and then soak roll).

I tried just removing damage roll and making the weapons just add automatic hit but that had the consequence that when a character with potence appeared he punched anyone into a fine mist. So the health and defending rolls were idea i had running around to fix that.

Then there is the problem of disciplines which are awfully made period. You would need to rework them from scratch.

>>52610540
>Except that in ascension there wasn't any fairy dust that erase people memories of magic
Didn't the technocracy wipe awakened magic from the consensus? It seems like that would be the "fairy dust". Either way, the bigger issue is probably the insane paradox gimps that make obvious magic a terrible idea in Ascension.

>And setting like dresden files in which people cast fireballs and nothing happens.
Well, nothing as obvious and immediate as Paradox, but if you just sling evocations everywhere, chances are you'll kill somebody (either on purpose or on accident) and break the first Law of Magic and wind up on the White Council's chopping block. Control is harder in the Dresden Files, and the White Council isn't exactly the most understanding bunch. Besides, sympathetic magic is still the better option in Dresden Files too. The first book showcased that pretty well. An amateur pulled off spectacular murders with it, and Harry flipped the fuck out when he got a lock of his hair stolen because sympathetic magic slips through defenses. Harry even says that the Senior Council members who know his true name could get to him anytime, anywhere, and there would be nothing he could do.

Go play DnD or something if you want to play a stereotypical wizard who flings destruction everywhere with no reservations, because urban fantasy isn't the ideal place for it.

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>>52610779
>taking anything DaveB says and doing the opposite seems to result in a more balanced mage

>>52610895
>Besides, sympathetic magic is still the better option in Dresden Files too.

Not really, it requires the true name of someone given by that person (meaning a license card is not enough) or DNA sample (hair that is not beard) or is just not possible while in awakening you just need to seen that guy at least once to cast it and the whole nightmare that is discussing how deeply you know someone or not.

Also the whole evocation will lead always someones death is you pulling something from your ass.

>>52610976
>>taking anything DaveB says and doing the opposite seems to result in a more balanced mage

You mad i dont love your waifu DaveB?

>>52611019
Just mad that you're an utter retard that constantly shits up these threads. But at least you're better than tohoufag.

>>52611040
>tohoufag

Who is tohoufag? Last time i was here we were hating aspel?

>>52611052
Some faggot who constantly comes up with dumb ways to break the game and demands that they be fixed. All with tohou pictures. They got banned from DnD 4e by Wizards. Not the official sites, the entire game.

>>52611083
>They got banned from DnD 4e by Wizards. Not the official sites, the entire game.

Wut?

>>52610745
>Whose got CoD: Dark Eras Companion?

https://www.sendspace.com/file/mqdb3x

>>52611101
Exactly what it sounds like. They got banned from Dnd 4e by Wizards. I think everyone knew it was completely unenforceable, but it still gives me lolz.

>>52611122
Providez-vous l'evidence?

>>52611003
>Not really
Yes, really. It's not easy, but it's insanely powerful. I say it's not easy, but it's not really hard, either. It depends, but it's been done easily enough in the series. Harry has been jumped for his hair, causing him to promptly flip shit, as I said. He's used blood traces from crime scenes, hairs from a brush, blood from a parent, an entire model of a city to stalk a guy, etc. It's just the better option for getting to somebody. All you have to do is work on getting the connection, and then their ass is yours. It's definitely better than slugging it out with destructive magic.

>Also the whole evocation will lead always someones death is you pulling something from your ass
Did I say "always", dipshit? No. What I said was true. Evocations are dangerous and difficult to control, the books tell you this and show it repeatedly. If you use them all the time something will happen, like you'll burn down a building with a stray fireball (another common occurrence in the series) and possibly get people killed, which means you run the very real risk of being executed by the White Council. Fuck, if you even have a good reason for burning somebody up then you still run the risk. The White Council is not understanding and doesn't really do mercy. Harry nearly got killed for killing his evil master, that Hannah chick was branded a warlock for defending herself, and Molly was nearly killed because the White Council gives no shits. If you break the laws their first instinct is to execute you.

Destructive magic has consequences, get over it.

>>52610779
>>52611019
Jesus fucking Christ Almighty

Are you some sort of SJW that's obsessed with the notion of equality? As above anon mentioned, why should normie humans, vampires, werewolves and fairies equate to wizards, mummies and demons?

>>52611019
No, I just remember the last time you were here. The "fairy dust" shit and "doing the opposite of what DaveB says" aren't common posts. The desire to nerf sympathetic magic to make Mage into an urban fantasy DnD with a focus on fireball combat isn't a popular opinion either.

You're the retard who proposed so many changes to Mage to """fix""" it that everyone just kept telling you to find a different game.