>DM gives you a pet companion >villain brutally kills it

when you make your character an orphan, you deny your DM the option of killing your family. Pet has to suffer instead.

>>52518204
You've taken your first step down the path of the Murderhobo.

>>52518204

Why If I have too many pets, too many family members to kill them all? HE WILL NEVER GET THEM ALL!

>>52518204
don't you want your GM to elicit emotion from you?

killing companions is the best way to get big reactions without having to kill an actual PC. and it makes the PCs want to do stuff in game. best of both worlds.

>>52518489
>best
>not most-hamfisted
It's actually both

>>52518489
Fuck off. Just because my character has a wife back home does not give the GM permission to fuck with that.

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>>52518536
>does not give the GM permission to fuck with that.

While I hate brute-force "lol everyone you love is dead" GMing this is patently wrong. When you provide backstory, you are implicitly agreeing to letting the GM use that going forward. I feel the number one rule of Player Characters is you should never be overprotective of them. If you refuse to cede any kind of creative control to the GM then you should just write a story about your character instead of using them a collaborative game.

When the GM is a hack who mangles your backstory, I can understand disappointment. But saying "This is my character, only what I say goes, and you cannot change or affect him in any way unless I approve of it" is That Guy behavior.

>>52518204
>be dm
>have one-eyed rogue in party
>introduced friendly (befriended via circumstances) one-eyed wolf.
>Using magic to speak with animals, the rogue asks for it to guide them out of the woods... and leaves it.
>Doesn't even consider that it might be thrown in to be THEIR animal companion
>Everyone in group chastises them over this later.

>>52518407
This. Having a small supporting cast guarantees they'll be killed. Having none makes you a lame dimensionless loner approached out of pity by NPCs who then die. The obvious adaptation is larger litters. Seven siblings, for both parents, too, and they all have their own broods. DM won't kill your family if the villain would have to charter a bus.

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>>52518796
> DM won't kill your family if the villain would have to charter a bus.

I dunno, I've seen some pretty ham-fisted ways of killing scores of friends and loved ones.

Now I do think a good GM should mess with the PC's social circles. But I also like to think I'm a lot more elegant about it than the scenarios /tg/ comes up with.

>>52518536
> having a wife
> ever
My DM made the villain of the story seduce and then impregnate her. He then made me watch as he did it through some kind of spell.
He then turned her into a complete slut, I won't go into details but you can imagine. She would play in orgies for the evil god of the villain. Finally when I confronted her she admitted the villain had just used her to get to me, and then she asked for forgiveness, saying that as a good guy I couldn't refuse it and that she couldn't raise the child alone (which was recently born).

The only good thing is that I kinda surprised the DM when I said 'okay', picked the baby and told her that even through I forgave her for the adultery, it was clear she wasn't fit to raise it so I wouldn't allow it. I then gave her some gold and told her to disappear forever, before people found out she colluded with him in serving an evil god.

The baby I gave to the saintly church to take care of it. The party then murdered the villain and it was all dandy. But boy did this cause some strife.

>>52518982
>Getting cucked by your DM
>Ever

>>52518536
Fucking this

I had a character who would periodically write and send gold back home to his wife and kids, so my DM had the bbeg kill them both.

I left that group

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>DM gives you a pet companion
>it turns out to be the villain in disguise

>>52518536
>>52518640
>>52518796
>>52518857
>>52519133

how about the death of an NPC that is connected to all the PCs? for example their favorite employer or tavern keeper. a friend of all the PCs is better to kill than just a single PCs family.

>>52519041
Not like I can be uncucked. But I can work within framework to handle it the best possible.

He made that to force me fall from good. He tried, I prevailed.

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>>52518204
>You are the Ranger
>You change into an animal
>You take yourself as your own animal companion

your move GM

>>52519253
That's fine, as long as it makes sense and isn't just for shock value

>>52519253
Killing friendly NPCs is a great way to add in drama and force some change in a character's personality. Plus then you have more options down the line, like bringing them back and making the player's regret their return

But you should make sure you do it well. The first trick is making sure it's someone the party actually likes. Icing your pet NPC who you're convinced the players all love (but really they don't) will mean jack diddly to them. Same with murdering a player's wife/girlfriend/mom/sister/daughter in Session Zero. You need to make sure there's actual attachment. Then you need to do it in a way which makes the death truly personal. The BBEG dropping a meteor on their heads doesn't cut it.

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>>52519286
>you are the ranger
>you change yourself into an animal
>you realize being an animal is more fun than being a human
>you become the party pet
E-everybody does that, right?

Any dead family scenario I just act with disbelief while providing ridiculous circumstances of mortal danger they survived before.

>yeah, they got hit by those couple times before. That's how she lost her tooth.
> was he screaming? If he was, he's fine and kicking. If he's not, he just had too much to drink and likely passed out or carbon monoxide poisoning. It keeps happening

>>52519365
>Killing friendly NPCs is a great way to add in drama and force some change in a character's personality.
Only the weak willed would turn evil because a loved one died. A true good hero would go, defeat the villain and then give him to justice.

>>52519441
>implying change means turning Evil

A good character (as in interesting, not necessarily Good) changes and grows as a story progresses. Losing loved ones is a catalyst for that. Some of the best stories are ones where the protagonists are different people by the end.

>>52519487
Ah right, in this case it's okay. Like changing from carefree into serious and mature hero.

>be druid
>shapeshift into human child
>go on adventure jumping over monsters and grabbing cool powerups to help me swing my sword and shit along the way
>get to a tall boss
>throw my sword into the air and shapeshift back into a tall strong muscular guy
>go street fighter on his ass
>have dramatic dialog, then shapeshift back into a kid and repeat

>>52518640
No, fuck you.

If the GM doesn't make it clear that NPCs important to the character are open season or doesn't ask if the player if they'd be okay with it before hand then that GM can fuck off.

It's just like you said it's a "collaborative game", which means that the players need to have just as much input as the GM does. If I wanted to be railroaded by a cuck who likes to fridge NPCs for cheap drama, then I'd play a video game.

>my character's most treasured companion is his dakimakura
Your move, GM.

>>52518204
>PCs want to adopt a random village dog.
>Tell them they can either have a statless cowardly pet that always dodge combats or a useful dog with his own char sheet and all that entails.
>Everyone wants the useful dog.
>One guy ragequits when the dog gets hurt because of an enemy AoE spell.

>>52518796
Apocalypse Stone

>>52519271
You didn't smite the slut.

>character's only friend growing up was her pet raven
>it only has 1 hp but comes back after resting

Raven Queen once again proving to be the best choice.

>>52521551
>players have just as much input as the GM
...no

>>52518641
>be player
>give my character one eye for a sweet bonus from a flaw
>DM introduces some wolf creature to me
>Ask it for directions and then leave it behind
>DM gets mad
>Think he wanted me to fuck the wolf for whatever reason but I'm knot into that shit.

>>52521878
Fuck off.

If the GM didn't want the players to influence his setting and the game, he should have written a book instead.

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>>52518204
>DM keeps killing off animal companions
>Keeps saying he doesn't mean to
>Always has a smug as shit look when he manages to
I don't care if it's what the villains would do, THAT WAS THE FIFTH FUCKING DOG I'VE SUMMONED

>>52518640
How to know if a DM is shit:

>Requires an extensive backstory for your character.

I actually had a player try to pull the "I am a orphan with no friends ever" thing on me once. About fifty sessions later it was revealed that she was actually the sister of the reigning empress of the land they were registered as adventurers in. Basically the player had been handed off to trusted retainers to keep her safe when the assassin guild started getting a bit uppity, but a raid by bandits killed both foster parents. The Empress had been hiring the party as personal troubleshooters for a bit while she had her secret police checking into the player's background.

>>52518982
That's actually impressive I think, this is how you paladin.

>>52521891
>but I'm knot into that shit.

Your Freudian slip suggests otherwise, Anon.

>>52521946
This! Anything more than three sentences is just masturbation.

>>52521991
Actually, that was meant to be a pun.

>DMing a campaign
>try to add a dog for the party as a plot hook, they find it with no owner, make it be a good boy and shit
>im a loner xd character immediately kills it and disembowels it
>entire party is visibly disgusted over skype and ingame
>don't know how to unfuck it

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>>52521891

>>52522076
Eh, not your problem. Just wait for a player to mention something, agree with him and kick the edgelord out.

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>>52522076
1 much stronger dog, and 1 less player character.

>>52522021
>three sentences
Jesus fuck, have you played anything not a homeless orphan?
Nobody needs to have pages upon pages but you should be able to explain some basic things that'll at least take a paragraph.
>where do you come from
>where do you get your abilities from
>what made you become an adventurer
>what makes you able to work with other adventurers
>what are your goals? short-, long-, and 'do the impossible' term

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>>52518204

Only one possible answer here, OP.
Pic related.

>>52520489
Was your name Ralph by any chance?

>GMin'g Carrion's Crown adventure path.

>Group meets Old River (village's stray dog), befriends it.

>Have yet to catch on to a certain person killing small animals to commit a particularly dangerous act of vandalism.

>Old River is now missing

>Group is clearly more invested in finding him than investigating a haunted prison.

How should I play it?

> Have yet to really decide Old River's fate.

>>52522169
I'm Bob and I hail from the village of Nob. I trained to become a knight under the most prestigious heroes of the land. I'm traveling with the party to hone my skills in the field and to fund my exploits as I set my own path towards becoming a knight of legend.

Bam, three sentences, no masturbation here.

>>52522204
Have the fate of Old River lead them to the prison, obviously.

>>52522231
Then reveal that Old River is the ghost of the prison guard dog

>>52522076
Dog ghost comes back as a black hound hungry for vengeance. Other party members cannot see it.
>>52522227
So you have no friends or familial relations back home in Nob? Any good reason for why you have that PC level while countless other guards and squires don't? Literally anything that I, as a DM, can work with to include your character in the story somewhat naturally?

What's the appeal of having a pet? You basically share your stats between two beings

>>52522285
Why does any of that matter? I answered all your questions, that should be enough for me to start playing in the campaign.

>>52522352
You missed
>what makes you able to work with other adventurers.

>>52522169
>where do you come from
May or may not be relevant, I could give you this depending on the scope/setting of the game the GM may have in mind.

>where do you get your abilities from
Generally self-explanatory, the same way other people with your class levels get those abilities.
Sounds like snowflake bait.

>what made you become an adventurer
Actually vital info, agree on this.

>what makes you able to work with other adventurers
Circumstance or genuine comradery (and both), doesn't seem like necessary need to know info. It should be trusted that player characters will work with one another but to they should be free to disagree of even go their separate ways if need be. You can't force this kind of thing, some people click and some don't.

>what are your goals? short-, long-, and 'do the impossible' term
Snowflake version of 'why are you adventuring'.

>>52522399
You missed
>I'm traveling with the party to hone my skills in the field and to fund my exploits as I set my own path towards becoming a knight of legend.

>>52522431
That's "what made you become the adventure" and "what are your goals?" You haven't explained how you fit into the party dynamic or even how your even able to work side by side with the current group.

>>52518204
Your first mistake was getting attached and letting the DM know it.

Surround yourself with summoned or bound entities that are easily replaced, and if you do become fond of one don't let on that fact if your DM is a lazy fuck going for shock and awe.

Stuff like this is also why I never play Favored Soul or Warlock even though I love the class concepts and the idea of interacting with a powerful patron. In reality the DM will most likely just use it as a way to fuck you over and present ultimatums. If there was a way for the player to have more of a say in what their patron was like and how they acted rather than it just being a particularly powerful DMPC you're forced to interact with frequently I'd be more favorable to it in practice.

I think the Binder is a happy alternative, since Vestiges are unable to interact with the Prime themselves (no "kill the baby or i send demons to take away your warlock powers" bullshit), and the side effects of binding a vestige are roleplayed by the player, with mechanical downsides for ignoring their personal compulsions

>>52522343
>What's the appeal of having a pet?
She/He loves you.

I had Sapphire, a female brown horse that was very fast. When she got hurt I would always heal her before me. She would smile when I hugged her and when she did exceptionally well I would kiss her head.

She was the best pet I had. And amazingly she ended the campaign alive.

>early campaign
>recruit chumps to help in battle
>most of them die
>survivors manage to turn the tide in one battle with a nicely done spear chuck
>kind of save the realm
>chumps get more powerful, retire with hydra hide cloak and some gold

>later campaign
>recruit chumps, same idea
>free some prisoners
>only 2 of them are actually above level 1
>eat shit with an AoE spells, most die instantly

>>52521927
>YouAppearToBeUpset.jpg
You're still butthurt your waifu got killed in a fucking rpg? Grow up

>>52522285
> So you have no friends or familial relations back home in Nob?

So you can use them for cheap plot hooks? Why does it really matter otherwise?

>Any good reason for why you have that PC level while countless other guards and squires don't?

Does every guard and squire ever have his ambitions? Maybe it's just a job to them and they see no merit in becoming the best sword in the land over living a simple life. This is pretty nit-picky.

>Literally anything that I, as a DM, can work with to include your character in the story somewhat naturally?

You should know the answer to that? Can you work with a character like this or not?

>>52522471
Isn't that question heavily dependent on the party group? Anyways, a village kid that became a knight seems pretty flexible. Anyone who can swing a sword around could probably join any group easily.

>>52522204
Have them save the dog last second if they pass some checks. Otherwise that old river is ol' yeller.

>>52521551
>>52521927
>GM needs every single important thing vetted by his players before it can ever happen

Then all he's doing is facilitating your own masturbation, anon. Bad GMs suck, and no one likes dealing with a guy who sucks at storytelling. But you don't come into a game someone else is running and then demand veto power on anything you don't like.

>the players need to have just as much input as the GM does
Your input as a player comes from the fact you have direct control over your character's immediate actions. The fact you can do basically anything without the GM saying "No, you're not allowed to do that" (within the context of mechanical rules) is all the input you need as a player.

>>52522471
It's pretty blunt man, a little vain but still.

He can fit the party's dynamic and/or work side by side with the group if they help him hone his skills and fund his exploits. How do you not get that?

>>52522487
>She would smile when I hugged h
>Horse
>Smile
Anon, was this horse a woman with a tail plug shoved in her butt?

>>52522231
>>52522257

My best idea so far is to trick them into thinking it's a ghost when he's actually a blink dog. I'm not sure if he should be leading them to the prison or leading them to the vandal.

>>52522538
>Isn't that question heavily dependent on the party group?
There are still some general traits that can be applied to work into any group.

>>52522471
>>52522399
Maybe it's a good thing I only wrote three sentences since your reading comprehension is this poor.

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>>52522661
>implying horses cannot smile
Regardless, she got very happy when I gave her attention. Or I fed her a carrot.

Putting family or companions in danger is great motivation as long as your character has a chance to save them. Breaking your character's ties to the world off-screen doesn't motivate shit.

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>>52522471
That's show, not tell, you fucking twat.

You can't run one fucking session and deduce party dynamics?

>>52518640

And this is why every single player's backstory is "...and then he was abandoned as an orphan"

>>52522021
I usually write long-ish backstories so i can get in character more easily, which I don't see as masturbation. Most GMs I've played with would have ignored an application that short, too. On my current one we're looking for an extra player and the GM gets annoyed when people send stuff like >>52522227

>>52524692
Unless it's court intrigue plot at established setting, the GM is shit if he can't work off the Bob of Nob

Hell, our cleric has refused to cast magic for months because the party problem child put his goddess in a coma, allowing him to be snatched up by an evil deity.

Said problem-child worships an evil tree that I am going to burn down the second we're face to face with it again. He's been sacrificing the souls of everything we've fought to it, and by now it can be seen from space.

>>52524795
He could, but why would he have to? Trying just one tiny bit harder than "He's called bob and he's a knight, he's with the party for money and to get stronger" doesn't instantly make you a masturbatory jackass. Making something two or 3 times longer than that in order to make your concept look slightly interesting doesn't take more than maybe 5 minutes.

>>52524820
Why not just get rid of this problem child?

>hurr hurr that would be disruptive and the DM doesn't allow PVP
Yeah, I'm sure the evil fucker is the victim here.

>>52524901
>He could, but why would he have to?
Because he's the fucking GM. If you want your character players to do everything for you, why are you even fucking here? Just tell everyone on the table to write their own story and publish it.

>>52518204
>Be GM
>Run a horror two shot.
>Player gets a dog as an animal companion.
>Party ends-up in a creepy mansion.
>Party goes to library.
>Party sucks with old creepy looking book on lectern.
>Book comes alive and starts flying about and trying to bite a chunk out of the characters.
>Party runs out of library but forgot that they left the door they entered through open.
>Book flies out and attacks the closest living thing.
>Closest living thing was PC's dog.
>Dog failed to survive critical hit.

That player is to this very day paranoid I will kill any animal companion.

>>52518407
That's why I spend any if my leftover of my starting gold on animals. Do you know how many goats and chickens you can buy for 40gp? Because it's a lot.

>>52525401
Okay, so the GM should take your not only low effort, but lowest-effort-possible-on-purpose application and let you into the game, taking all the load of actually building your character beyond his name, occupation and sheet because he's the GM and that is apparently one of his duties.

>>52524427
Isn't this from some porn text game?

>>52525246
I'm waiting for an opportunity. The problem is that the GM's running a campaign that's supposed to test the morality of the group (giving bonuses for evil actions, such as putting the Cleric between being able to use magic if said magic came from an evil god)

Said problem child diving head first into the evil choices means that his character has been horribly mutated, but in a way that makes him dangerous in combat.

My rogue swashbuckler simply doesn't have the DPS to take him out until an opportunity arrives, and I'm dodging around GM's morality stuff just as much as everyone else.

>>52519222
>end up not being able to kill him because he was a good boy

>>52524901
>He could, but why would he have to?

Because this is what a competent GM is capable of, playing with a GM who can't even work with the player to expand upon a character as simple as Bob is like playing with a GM who doesn't know the rules to the game he's running in the first place. Pointless.

>>52525562
>It's the player's responsibility to do the GM's job.

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>>52525562
The character's built already, what the fuck are you on about? Seriously, just fucking have the relevant shit show instead of the player telling you what they would do.

You want to know which buttcheek he scratches first? send mosquitos.
You want to know if he has any ambitions of joining any knight orders? Send out a call to arms. The GM has more than enough info from Bob to get an arc going.

The GM is shit if he can't do at least that much to initiate a story.

>>52525595
I see. Well, I guess it changes things if acting like that is part of the game you're in. It kind of sounded like the player was being a dick just because, and I assumed you could stop him if the rest of the party banded together. But I suppose at least the cleric is completely useless if he can't use any of his powers.

>>52525635
I don't know man I don't usually see the GM as my bitch. If he asks for something to make running the game easier I see no point in refusing on the grounds it isn't strictly necessary.

>>52525706
nice strawmanning faggot. I bet you are the same reading comprehensionless faggot from above. Actually reply to the post after reading or shut the fuck up.

>>52525698
How this is mutually exclusive with not making a 3 sentence backstory that can be summed in one?
>>52525736
There was no real argument made on that post.

>>52525706
I don't see holding a GM to know how to GM as making him subservient to you. If I need help 'running the game easier' then I start with a module or an adventure path or something.

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>>52525706
Personally I'm cool with writing however much a DM likes when making a character. Then again, I enjoy writing and I'm not an asshole who believes it's all just a ploy to fuck with me.

Now the best thing to do is to collaborate with your DM when making a character. Bypasses the need for a written backstory if you just explain it and they make it with you. You could even get their opinion on whether or not it matches the tone of the game, and helps them get an idea of what they're working with.

>>52525693
Haven't you heard? Players are there to kick their feet back and watch the funny Gee Ehm monkey dance

>>52525835
I'm not in my group to test my GM's skills. I'm there because I want to play the game. I don't give even the tiniest shit about what a GM "should" be like or what he "should" know as long as he ends up running an entertaining game for everyone on the table, and would rather not have his GMing turn into a chore.

>>52525814
>How this is mutually exclusive with not making a 3 sentence backstory that can be summed in one?
You are the one that brought the notion that character is insufficiently built because details of the STORY THAT IT'S THE FUCKING GM'S JOB TO TELL wasn't part of the character. Also please make Bob into a 1 sentence character that isn't using a run-on sentence

>>52525903
You are a fucking hypocrite.
>I don't care what the GM should be
>Long as he ends up running an entertaining game for everyone on the table
Don't act like you are some GM's ultimate best friend player. You have the same expectations of competence as anyone else. Dig out your head from your ass because you are sputtering shit everywhere.

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>DM gives you a pet companion
>It turns out to be your characters super upgrade

>>52525913
>Also please make Bob into a 1 sentence character that isn't using a run-on sentence
Bob of Non is an ambitious knight trained by the land's most prestigious heroes, who currently travels with the party to fund his exploits.

>>52525814
>There was no real argument made on that post.
There weren't any reading done on the previous post either, what's your point?

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>>52525987
good, now 2 more sentences and Bob should be sufficiently fleshed out for the GM to make a story of decent quality whether or not Bob's involvement is confirmed.

>>52525814
What you said here >>52524901 justifies player attitudes like >>52521551 and not GMs like >>52521949. Two or twenty more lines of backstory makes no difference as long as you have a clear character concept. Logic dictates that if you can't work with something clear and concise in three lines you can't work with one with five or twenty lines.

You need to argue your point better, show us a post or tell us of a time you played a game and your backstory had a significant meaning in an adventure that wasn't masturbatory or cliche like 'the bbeg cucked you'.

>>52525949
I don't have "the same expectations of competence as anyone else". Namely, I don't share yours, which is why this argument got started.
>>52526024
Isn't that goalpost a bit heavy, anon? Do you need help moving it?

But if I was making Bob I would probably add some details about his personality (D&D literally have a spot to put your character's ideals and personality flaws so this is something you're expected to do) and probably some note about his relationship with his mentors or how he came under their wings. I can work that out later with the GM, but I can just put it right away as well and it makes no difference except it being quicker and requiring less GM involvement.

>>52525698
Creating a generic as fuck and boring as fuck character such as bob is laziness pure and simple. Bob is a template, a starting point, bob has no substantial backstory. While Bob's discription might be just barely acceptable for what other players should know, as he should have his personality be more fleshed out so that other players know who they're dealing with, however it fails for what the DM should know. The DM should know that stuff your suggesting in your character's fucking backstory. You are that guy fuck off with you lazy ass character who isn't distinct in any way.

>>52524427
What's this from?

>>52522076
leader of next town offers group a quest to find his dog which edgelord killed. Big enough reward to incentivize selling out of edgelord.

>>52525700
I mean, if the group got to that point where he was actively working against the party as opposed to just being opportunistically evil...

The party would end up split in half, with my rogue, the cleric, probably one of the fighters, and the bard vs problem child mushroom druid, wizard, and other fighter.

I have no idea where our third fighter would fall, he's TN as fuck

>>52526024
Or he can save his time and find a GM who doesn't suck?

And also not contribute to what is sounding more and more like /pfg/'s terrible trend lately of running roll20 weeb/furfag games based on characters with backstories like 'born at a very young age'.

>>52518204
I'm playing a wild magic sorcerer.

It wasn't the DM, it was me who blew up the rangers pet.

>>52526134
That's kind of the point, he's a template to be developed by the adventure not what he's already been through. Otherwise why run a game and not just write a book? What are you playing? Where's the interaction?

>>52526109
>or tell us of a time you played a game and your backstory had a significant meaning in an adventure
My very first time playing D&D my character was a disgraced artisan who got banished out of his city. At one point the guildmaster showed up in a tavern to discuss him splitting from the party for a while to conduct a "favor" of some sort that would reinstate his social status and allow him to practice his craft again.

There was a long in-character discussion about it, since my character was supposed to be REALLY bitter about the whole ordeal and in the middle of a job as a mercenary, but it was eventually interrupted and the guildmaster left while clarifying the offer was still open. It's still one of my favorite tabletop moments and one of the reasons I bothered joining another campaign after that game was cancelled a month later due to the DM not having time to run anymore.

I didn't write a gigantic wall of text, either. It was maybe 2 short paragraphs and a clarification that I was a new player.

>>52526247
The point is that you should have a personality to start with, you should have a few quirks to make your character interesting and fun. You control your character and how they develop throughout the story, the DM creates the world and reacts to your actions to the situations that it puts you in. If you don't understand this you probably shouldn't be playing a tabletop RPG.

>>52526134
Personally, if one of my players gave me Bob the Knight I would let him keep it. The character template is horrifically lazy though, so I probably wouldn't put much effort into weaving a backstory for the guy unless the player is actually really good at RP.

Why should I care about a PC if the PC's player doesn't even care about him?

>>52526389
I agree with you, however, the point I was trying to make was that this sort of player attitude creates a less pleasant role playing experience for everyone involved, which while not intolerable should be discouraged.

>>52518204
>Just randomly kills a PC family member to make the adventure more "epic"
I pretty much just make all my characters orphans or family already dead to avoid this.

>>52526492
>should be discouraged.
I find this is a moot endeavor. In my personal experience, players who show up with backstories like "one day he just decided to be an adventurer to test his skills" are often the most unengaged and disinterested players there. And no amount of discouragement will get them to change because at the end of the day they're either too dumb to get it or just don't want to play at all.

The one exception is this one guy I play with who basically can't come up with a backstory on his own and just kind of relies on me to do it for him. But when I do give him one, he takes it and runs with it so hard he laps everyone else at the table.

I'm lucky though. Most of my current players gave me real backstories and the game's been all the better for it.

>>52518796
>>52518407
>>52518204
In this thread, /tg/ explains the r/k theory through pets and npcs.

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>>52518640

>playing second D&D campaign
>both campaigns, write love interest into backstory, both campaigns DM made her into a villain
>both campaigns, have father/mentor figure, both campaigns, DM made them into a villain

fuck DMs I'm never adding either of those things into a character backstory again (if I even play another campaign with this fucking DM) shit ain't fun

>>52522538
>could probably join any group easily.
You think people run into life-or-death situations with just any stranger?

>>52527441
I got around that.

My character's mother died in jail for a crime she didn't commit, and my character is out to Monte Cristo the framers.

>>52522227
"Bob of Nob is an ambitious knight seeking fame and fortune."
Put more effort into it pleb.

>>52522535
>Does every guard and squire ever have his ambitions?
Yes.

>>52527629

Most squires want to be knights.

Most guards want things to be interesting (but not really interesting. Like a caravan going through town, but not like an Orc warband at the gates.)

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>>52525959

I like you.

>>52518235
when I did that he tried to kill my PC's wife and son
my pc got married about half way through the session
time shenanigans happened and I was timeskipped past when my pc's son was born

>>52518640
How about having a conversation with your PC's/GM's before the game starts and talk about what you're looking for in a campaign and draw lines before the game starts.

You know, like rational people?

These are collaborative games and if the GM expects people to play with them they should learn to respect people's limits or tell them not to come to the table straight up.

>>52528814
Good players and GMs will never need that conversation though.

A good GM knows hurling backstory NPCs into the meatgrinder with no rhyme or reason is poor form and contributes nothing.

A good player rolls with the punches and doesn't demand veto power over anything which conflicts with his "vision" for the character.

Players and GMs who do those kinds of things can't really be "fixed" with a conversation.

I'll admit though I'm a little biased towards GMs in this scenario. I find players who are the most autistically protective about their family/loved ones NPCs are the players who keep trying to turn the game into an episode of Playing House. Though don't assume that means I endorse "lol your girlfriend turned evil and killed your mom" style GMing.

>>52518204
>Kill a player's animal companion
>Shaman casts reincarnate on it
>It's now twice as powerful since it's a lion turned into a Ankylosaurus

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>>52518204
"Well, shit. You know, I was developing this new blood to acid spell to make sure devils and trolls stayed down, but I hadn't run into anyone who was an asshole enough to warrant testing it. So thanks for volunteering!"

>>52526328
You could've easily shaved that backstory down to three sentences and the main bullet points wouldn't have changed though.

>>52528975

I don't understand serial backstory murderer GMs.

You've got something that your player might actually choose to care about, handed to you on a platter... And you waste it on a single session player punch because you don't wanna do the legwork for a real adventure?

Why rape and murder his wife with random evil bandits when the doomsday cult leader has been inviting her and the kids over for lunch after the service every sunday? How well can you spar with evil over cucumber sandwiches?

Why torture his kid when you find him making a good hustle driving the getaway for his goons? Of course you don't understand his new friends, you're never home.

There's so much potential if you sit back and meet the minds, but it requires some fucking effort...

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>>52519222
>>52525630
>Party Shaman has a close, innate bond with a spirit
>Give Shaman a personal quest to free another spirit trapped by a giant
>Party does so and the spirits merge together
>Giant had been guarding the spirit to make sure it never got free, since it was part of the BBEG
>Mfw BBEG got to spy on party for free
>Mfw had to give the shaman the choice of either come up with a plan to separate the two within a few minutes or put old yeller down

>>52527568
That doesn't explain where he learned his skills or why he'd be willing to work with the other party members, so you'd fail the criteria set forth by >>52522169

Apply yourself next time.

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>>52529128
fuck damnit, anon

>>52518640
>character is a family man who, in the long run, wants to retire peacefully with his family
>DM removes characters long term goal for their plot
I have, and will, retire characters that lose their reason to adventure, and no, not every character becomes a revenge driven maniac.

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>>52529155
It wasn't so bad. While the spirits were together it had the abilities and stats of a Dire creature.

Plus after they purified it, it became a Zuishin Kami.

>>52526133
>But if I was making Bob I would probably add some details about his personality
This much should be apparent once you actually begin roleplaying Bob though, you shouldn't need to write a sentence or two just to say "I plan on roleplaying him as being vain and chivalrous."
>probably some note about his relationship with his mentors or how he came under their wings.
None of this matters either, because the important bit that needed to be stated was that Bob was trained by knights who he viewed as being heroes. If we need to know more, either Bob will mention it on his own through roleplay.

Conservation of detail is a valuable writing tip that you need to learn as soon as possible anon. It'll help save you time and writing space.

>>52529267
A character who just ups and leaves when his plans get ruined sounds like a pretty boring character. If the GM bungled it or just threw your character's family into a firing line with no real reason or logic behind it I'd understand. But jeeze I can't imagine playing a character where I expect a forgone conclusion and then retire him if I don't get it.

>>52529319
>A character who just ups and leaves when his plans get ruined sounds like a pretty boring character.
Yeah, how dare someone lose all their motivation to continue earning gold for their family once they discover that their family's dead, obviously that's because they're a boring character.
>I can't imagine playing a character where I expect a forgone conclusion and then retire him if I don't get it.
Well it's the same reasoning as playing a character who owes a debt to someone who retires once the debt is repaid. They have no reason to continue traveling anymore, so why would they continue risking their lives from that point forward?

If you don't want characters with a "foregone conclusion" with risks of retirement, just straight up say "listen, just roll up murder hobos so I don't have to worry about your character retiring because of your family."

>>52529319
Specifically, that character was a poor human soldier who fell in love with an elf woman who turned out to be an ambassador to the city. After she got recalled, he couldn't exactly up and go, from lack of resources and influence, so he was adventuring to make a name for himself and earn money enough to not embarrass her when he moved into the elf city half the world away.Same continent, but definitely too far to just walk alone

His whole goal was to walk in, a few years down the line, and be able to sit down and go with her wherever she went, with their kid.


DM killed off the wife/daughter, and my character found out on his a trip he had taken during down time, which i spent funds doing. Wasn't even like a specific enemy, she died "during an attack on the city"

>>52529267
>Character wants to retire with family
>Family dies
>Character retires anyway for some reason, instead of sticking with the only bunch of friends he has left
>Not seeking justice
>Not seeking some way to bring them back
I mean there's about a dozen different ways you could have salvaged this without losing his reason to adventure, friendo

>>52518640
see in my case I usually have most of my family gone with a few members still around. my current character's mother is dead but she died in his mid 20s and her death caused him to leave home and become a pirate "Privateer" as the group in joke. He never knew his dad because he was a sailor who didnt know he knocked up his mom. Other than that he has a half sister thats some kind of sea witch but they dont keep in touch due to them both traveling.

>>52529399
>>52529387
Alright having read that story I've decided your DM was, in fact, a shit.

>>52529376
>They have no reason to continue traveling anymore, so why would they continue risking their lives from that point forward?

I mean, if the game goes well then the character should have more to care about than what he did when it started. Like I dunno, being friends with the party members? Changes to his status quo caused by his adventures? Han Solo wouldn't have been nearly as fun if he never came back after the Rebel Alliance payed him. If the GM is throwing creative and fair curveballs, the other player characters are charismatic and fun to be around, and Gruff McFamilyMan STILL permanently leaves the party because he now has enough money to pay his debts then it's that dude who's being a poor sport.

>If you don't want characters with a "foregone conclusion" with risks of retirement
I have no issue with that. What bothers me is players who are completely inflexible with their goals and backstories and refuse to let their characters wind up at all different than their predetermined story. The GM completely shredding your motivations in the most undramatic or cheap ways possible is annoying. I won't argue against that. But there's a lot of middle ground between being totally uncompromising in what should happen to your character and being an anything goes murderhobo.

>>52529387
Your GM is heartbreakingly uncreative. I would've put your wife and kid in danger, possibly even killed her. But I would've made that an adventure in of itself rather than just telling you "rocks fell, your family died".

>>52529490
>I mean, if the game goes well
Y'know, aside from the PC's family being dead of course.
>Like I dunno, being friends with the party members?
You don't get it, not everyone is going to bounce back from family death like it's no big thing, some people just sink into a pit and never come out of it until the despair leaves nothing left. All that dude is thinking about is "my family is dead" and nothing else in the world matters anymore.

If the PC's don't give enough of a shit to stay behind long enough to make sure that he's okay, they obviously don't care about him as much as they care about completing the mission.
>What bothers me is players who are completely inflexible with their goals and backstories
You say this as if anyone wakes up and plans for their PC's family to die.
>But there's a lot of middle ground between being totally uncompromising in what should happen to your character and being an anything goes murderhobo.
Why would I work with a DM who does this shit?

>>52529575
Sounds to me like you:
A.Have a DM who means well but is perhaps a little shaky on how to run a good game.
B. Have a party full of murderhobos far less interested in roleplaying than you are.
C. Are getting inordinately upset about something you could choose for your character to come back from, but have instead decided that both you and him should go and have a big old sulk about it.

Have you tried talking it over with your DM? I assume not, from your little 'why would I work with someone like that' quip back there.

>>52529490
>Your GM is heartbreakingly uncreative. I would've put your wife and kid in danger, possibly even killed her. But I would've made that an adventure in of itself rather than just telling you "rocks fell, your family died".
I'm not going to say character motivations and family should be immutable, but i do want to ask , Why? If something comes about organically during the game, sure, but why target a characters motivation for destruction.

Hey Bill, you know how your wizard wants immortality? Well too bad, that goal is impossible, and every text you read, any NPC you question and every deity has the same answer of "nope".

Hey Sam, you know how your cleric wants to build a magnificent temple to his god? Your god says "no, don't do that, i don't want more temples"

It doesn't encourage roleplaying, it encourages making characters without goals.

>>52529685
Be fair, you're advocating making a character with only a single goal, and if it doesn't work out they'll get upset and wander off into a hole to die.

Give them 2 or 3 (one of which can always be "likes the party" or something simple like that), then if something doesn't pan out you can keep playing the character and they don't become a 1 dimensional plank of wood.

>>52529685
It's not so much "targeting the players goals for destruction" as much as it is creating plot hooks which are personal. As a GM, when a player gives me back story elements which happen concurrently to the action (my wife is at X doing Y) I assume he wants me to make something out of it. I also figure putting something like that at stake encourages growth and challenges the PC, which is a lot more interesting than turning every single interaction with waifu NPC some banal slice of life episode.

I also should clarify I'll rarely ever kill off an NPC unless there's something the player can actually do to prevent it and I make that thing clear one way or another.

>>52525987
how and why did bob meet the greatest heros in the land, and deserve to be trained by them? when and where was bob knighted, and what did he do yo deserve that honor. given bob's apparent badassness why does he need to travel with these guys to fund his exploits?

your single sentence backstory needs some explanation.

>>52529766
But why negate ANY part of a character without it otherwise impacting the game? If you don't want a wizard to research a long term immortality goal, tell them that DURING character creation, don't just strike down every time they look for relevant information.

If you don't want my primary goal to be my family, tell me that, don't just kill them off.

>>52529783
Creating plot hooks should be relevant to the characters interests though, and while needing to go on an adventure to recover ancient manuscripts and artifacts to achieve a goal is a good plot hook, losing family off screen, or having all your leads cut off before they go anywhere isn't interesting to the player.

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>Miss a session
>Come back and the DM explains a helpful bloodhound carried my passed out gnome on his back while the party went on adventures, set me down, and ran off shortly before I woke up
>Go on an adventure to find my loyal steed
>DM begins to humor me and it becomes a long-running side quest
>I'm eventually reunited with my dog
>Everything turned out better than expected

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>>52518641
>rogue
>animal companion
What?

>>52529831
Who said that I didn't want the wizard researching immortality from the outset?
The NPC's he's talked to said no, but I see no reason to stop the search. Or did you think throwing off the shackles of time itself would be easy?
Shit, maybe it'll turn out that your elfy waifu died because of your actions, not because of rocks fall. Maybe if you talked to your DM about it, he'd be able to tell you.
Talk to him anyway. Not like you've got anything to lose at this point.

>>52530000
It's not a current campaign anon, and i discussed it with the DM, which is why the character retired and i made a new one.

His reason at the time essentially boiled down to him offering the party a change of scenery, making the elf city our new HQ. When we talked it out, he realized that he had left no reason for my character to bother moving to a new city, he had some idea that we'd work against the enemy dragon cult that initiated the attack, but that just didn't really make sense to up and do.

So i made a new character, and he repurposed the stuff he had for a dwarven city instead, focusing on a different player.

I'm sharing a story, but that doesn't mean i'm still upset about anything.

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>>52526197
>born at a very young age?
age 0?

>>52526361
Personality is already established.
He's motivated. Bob is very motivated since he's taken to multiple instructors and wants to be legendary himself.

Like shit, can no one fucking read? Are all the older generations complaining about modern folks having no attention span true? Why the fuck are you so fucking stupid?

>>52530064
>Guys, he's got a personality!
>He's motivated
>That's all
That's not a personality. I'm motivated to go to my shitty university and study things, but that doesn't magically tell you everything about what I'm like.

>>52530118
Well, it's a good fucking thing that the GM will provide circumstances that will reveal the character of the character.

Also he's obviously personable since he can maintain a network of heroic tutors and has enough confidence to assume that he has hope of reaching their level.

Stop being fucking stupid.

>>52518982
Pretty cool. While your DM sounds like the worst kind of neckbeard, giving the kid to a monastery and practicing forgiveness *is* what a Lawful Good type should do.
Frankly, that Kid could be a fun future pc.

>>52530322
Funny, seems like trying to sum up a whole character in one line of backstory can be pretty confusing for some people, can't it?

>>52530425
Only if you are fucking stupid and can't read 3 sentences.

>>52530459
People are stupid, Anon. I'm surprised you didn't know that.

Maybe you're stupid too

>>52530530
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfYaQCKFFaw

I'm a person, I'm smart. You are a fucking idiot and stupid as shit.

>>52530576
Everyone thinks they're the smart one, Anon. I'm doing it right now too.

>>52528814
>having a conversation with your PC's/GM's before the game starts and talk about what you're looking for in a campaign and draw lines
I would honestly be far more uncomfortable having such a talk than I'd be from anything that could possibly happen in the game.

As >>52528975 if the GM constantly kills PC family members and friends for nothing but cheap dramatic effect he will achieve nothing but teaching his players to not get attached to NPCs, which is presumably the opposite of what he wants. People of average intelligence will therefore not do it.

If the player, on the other hand, thinks that his backstory is somehow sacred and that the characters mentioned within it can never have anything bad happen to them, then that person is a fucking mongoloid and should probably look into seeing a psychiatrist rather than spend his time playing collaborative games of pretend.

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>player character tries to kill your pet companion
>they suffer an unfortunate accident and get eaten by giant spiders in the same session

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>>52529267
A good DM should have made sure that your character had another goal by that point. And, not to insult you, but it's good for players to know that as good as it is to have a goal going in, it's totally okay to shift things around and develop new goals during the campaign. It's about having fun - if the character ends up a stick in the mud, change things. If you don't want to change things it's okay to retire, but if it can be solved as simply as conveniently forgetting his old backstory motivations and focusing on the ones that have developed in-game so you can keep playing a fun game with your friends, then it's a fair sacrifice.

>>52518407
So, basically Walder Frey.

>>52518204
as a druid, it's sad, but I can just summon another one.

>>52522076
>guy travels with other people.
>calls himself a loner
What

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>>52518204
>Playing Shadowrun (4e, you plebs)
>Accidentally get a date with a Knight Errant corporate security due defending self in a Cafe riot.
>Go on dates, have interesting conversations, learn that life is worth living outside electronics store back room.
>Hijinks.
>Now wanted and hunted by Knight Errant.
>Love of life is now working on opposing side.

This is worse than him dying.

>>52531780
That's a good one though.
As in, fucking really good.
I he gonna quit for you? are you gonna try to convert him? Is he gonna try to convert you to snitch? Are you gonna try and fuck despite being at odds?

>>52518489
>killing companions is the best way to get big reactions

>making players think you're a bad DM is the best way to

Might be the fastest. For sure not the best.

>>52518641
>one eyed rogue
>one eyed wolf
wow real subtle there anon, when is your next book being published ?

>>52532018
made it that easy and the retard still didn't pick up on it

>>52531382
It's not like retiring a character means leaving a session/group. I just made a new character going forward.

>>52518235
Whenever someone does this to me I make damn sure to reward everyone who has a family. Mostly through small favors and the occasional letter. Which I do regardless.

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>>52518204
>DM gives a little girl to accompany group
>get attached to it
>suddenly he makes villain kill her
>says that I am close and should have a chance to roll and take it
>he makes it a very high roll
>pass and suffer the attack
>he makes a villain attack her again
>demand another roll
>pass and suffer the attack
>another attack
>demand another roll
>pass and ends up dying
>DM chastises me for not letting him kill his NPC and wrecking his story
Doesn't matter, that was fun.

>>52530630
How can you be smart if you can't understand three sentences of backstory?

>>52519373
I would kill you in real life if I could.

>>52532047
Maybe he thinks you're a closet furry and didn't want to step into your magical realm.

>>52532283
Why would he even suggest you taking the hit if he doesn't want that happen?

>>52532626
Ah sorry, I am the one who said that. He would have killed her without roll.

>>52518204
>>DM gives you a pet companion
>itsatrap.gif

>>52519253
>To show the big bad is serious business, he kills Bill from accounting.

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>>52531858
We'll have to see :P I'm planning on keeping up with the relationship because life without isn't as worthwhile. If things go too bad character might relapse into BTL's again. I'm not sure which is more important for the Knight Errant though: The relationship or the career.

Honestly. I havn't been this excited for ages.

>>52532588
How can you be smart if you can only write one?

>>52533176
One what? One backstory for the one character that I'm planning on playing in this hypothetical campaign?

>>52533237
One sentence
What, can't you read either?

>>52533374
I obviously wrote three sentences anon.

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>>52519222
>party rogue gets a pet boar
>we go to the shadowfell, fight Strahd
>we fight Lord Soth
>we go to elven lands and fight warlock elf
>suddenly boar is missing
>entire city decimated
>the boar was not!Nyarlathotep all the time

>>52529941
Sometimes in lieu of magical artifacts, I reward my players with things like that. Legendary sword isn't a class feature, but players can still get one. So why not give them other property-esque things that don't go too deep into another player's class's territory?

>>52532621
I didn't know that regular ol' animal companions were magical realms. It just seemed the proper thing to do since the party had many encounters against beasts where they just tried to talk things out (And I threw in beasts because all they did to humanoid threats was talk to them. Lousy Speak with Animals). Eventually I sent an army of golems after them.

>>52518641
>>52532018
>one eyed wolf
>one eyed rogue.

I don't get it. Is it a MGS thing or a ASoIAF thing? Or is it something completely different?

>>52533944
Furries and bronies have ruined the image of animal companions by doing shit like "I turn into a bear and fuck my animal companion for teh lulz" even when you're trying to roll up a serious game.

It also doesn't help that animal companions trigger martialfags by being straight up better than the resident Fighter as well.

>>52530322
>it's a good fucking thing that the GM will provide circumstances that will reveal the character of the character

This'll only really happen if you yourself are a good roleplayer. But I'd be kind of doubtful if someone brought me a character with such a lazy and blatantly gamist backstory. "He wants to become the strongest champion in the land" isn't a bad backstory but it's really only one step above actually stating "He just wants to level up". I'm not gonna punish this kind of character but I probably won't tailor any specific quests around him either unless I get a little more detail.

Brevity is key in creativity. But it's okay to have a little more personality anon.

>>52518204
>Be DM
>paladin has full family, loving father and mother and missing sister
>they even visit paladin's home at one point and he goes to see them to talk about his sister who went missing
>one year into the campaign, beloved paladin gets killed in a near railroaded act that everyone in the party feels terrible about because they left him to die so everyone else gets away, including the little oracle who was infatuated with the paladin
>they have to attend the funeral without the paladin's body and the oracle breaks down and cries when the grieving parents tell her it wasn't her fault
>player comes back as paladin's sister

>>52533944
>so why not
because it invalidates an entire subclass?

>>52535513
>This'll only really happen if you yourself are a good roleplayer.
Actually, this will only happen if the DM bothers to give me, the player, a challenge that requires more thought than rolling dice and getting a high number.

We've established that Bob of Nob wants to be a virtuous knight and hone his skills while in the field. You could challenge him by throwing a situation where Bob has to choose between getting money or maintaining his virtue, you could have a situation where he witnesses a knight engaging in questionable behavior but the knight in question outranks him and could make his dream harder to fulfill, you could even have a situation where Bob meets a hero that he studied under but circumstance forces him to witness the dark side of being a knight by showing his mentor after he suffered a critical injury while in the field.

It's there, you're just too lazy to read between the lines and actually challenge the player in a way that wasn't spelled out to you.

>>52535567
>One guy having a basic wolf companion somehow invalidates the subclass that can have a god damn upgraded raptor as their pet, as well as a bunch of features that boost their co-operation.

>>52535643
>We've established that Bob of Nob wants to be a virtuous knight and hone his skills while in the field

And I've established this is boring, transparently game-y, and indicates Bob has no real personality beyond some milquetoast Be Tha Very Best agenda. Ash Ketchum is not an interesting character, anon.

I'm well aware of what I /could/ throw at a character like this but why would I want to? From the outset Bob lacks personality so why would I give him the spotlight? I would rather focus on PCs who actually give me something to work with and can offer a more interesting conflict than "I want to be a Knight but those other Knights don't Knight the way I want to Knight".

You have the baseline for something good but demanding the GM do the legwork for you is unfair, especially since you clearly aren't as interested in this character as you expect others to be.

>>52535707
>Ash Ketchum is not an interesting character, anon.
>This is why he became the face of the Pokémon anime and until today they never could get rid of him.
>This is why last year people were cherishing, thinking he would finally win a league

>>52535755
>who would've thought ten-year-olds would like a show about a ten-year-old fighting monsters with other monsters
>who would've thought a company would plaster their mascot on their products

The only reason anyone cares about him now is nostalgia.

>>52535449
>Confusing furries and bronies with Germans
C'mon, anon

>>52535781
>their mascot
You mean Pikachu?

>>52535707
>And I've established this is boring, transparently game-y, and indicates Bob has no real personality beyond some milquetoast Be Tha Very Best agenda in my opinion
FTFY
> Ash Ketchum is not an interesting character, anon.
Ash isn't an interesting character because the anime goes out of its way to either hand Ash victories using the most contrived shit possible or he falls for bullshit that would be obvious to a child playing pokemon for the first time, in spite of going through multiple leagues at this point, even fighting legendary pokemon. It has nothing to do with his desire to be the very best that no-one ever was.
>I'm well aware of what I /could/ throw at a character like this but why would I want to?
Because you're the GM?
>You have the baseline for something good but demanding the GM do the legwork for you is unfair
Yes anon, how dare I expect you to put forth the bare minimum effort in running a game when you're the one who wanted to run it...you just sound lazy.

>>52535678
yes, it does. you take away what is supposed to be a unique feature and give the noname brand to someone else, effectively making your ranger player feel less special and unique.

You're also giving it to the class that already has a metric shit ton of abilities.

>>52535755
you know what's unfortunate? watching pokemon/ digimon now, as an adult, and just cringing at the god awful writing in any of the episodes.

>>52535920
Don't do it if you have a beastmaster ranger in the party already, you silly moo.
If you don't though, bringing up the uniqueness argument again, it'll make the paladin player feel much more unique.

>>52535863
>you just sound lazy

Says the guy showing up at the table with a character whose backstory amounts to little more than "Yeah he's out adventuring just cuz."

Look, if I have a choice between tailoring an adventure around Bob the Knight who Just Wants to Be a Knight, or Cliff the Rogue who seeks the Ancient Cursed Treasure of Emperor Yu-Yin, whose backstory do you think I'm gonna focus on? I could run an entire campaign around Cliff. I can't do that for Bob unless I take it on myself to force motivations on his player.

Honestly this is the main reason I never run sandboxy adventure games: unimaginative players like you. If I need to come up with the minutia of what makes my party's characters interesting or engaging I'd just go write a novel.

I find it's best to just start the game with players working for the government or something because then everyone has a direct reason for doing something. Though I would hope they still give me more to work for than just being a tool for whatever agency signs their paychecks.

>>52535755
barneyfags go

>>52535979
>Says the guy showing up at the table with a character whose backstory amounts to little more than "Yeah he's out adventuring just cuz."
There's more there beyond "he's an adventurer just cause" and you know it mate.
>I can't do that for Bob unless I take it on myself to force motivations on his player.
Bob already has a motivation and flaws that you could easily exploit, I even gave you ideas here >>52535643

Don't claim that there's nothing to base a campaign around when I gave you ideas that you could base a campaign around.

>>52535920

Except you never take away animal companion from the druid/ranger.

If you ever sit back and think "Man, I shouldn't do this because Player didn't pay for it", you are enslaved to the mechanics.

Give the rogue his wolf, and give the ranger/druid interesting and weird creatures to meet, tame and talk to.

The game should be lifted to the adventure, not dragged down to the mechanics.

>>52536122
Better yet, just play a fucking game where you don't have to choose one or the other.

>>52536117
The DM should know those flaws from the start and they should be in Bob's backstory.

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Honestly Bob the knight seems like a Good Charecter for a first time GM to run a campaign on.

"Tis I, Bob. I seek little more then to be among the greatest knights of this realm."

>>52536117
Yeah, those motivations and flaws should be clearly described in the backstory. That's basically the whole point.

>>52536264
Now I want to run a game about players training to become knights, like Harry Potter but with martials!

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>>52536264
Becoming a great knight and just becoming stronger are very different goals, really. The former implies a desire to do knightly deeds and rise through social ranks, and calls to mind Arthurian tales and suggests a character dedicated to chivalry and their realm.
The latter is vague and needs to be framed to become interesting. Without building further, it's just a pale flaccid trait.

>>52536264
Yeah but he's got a lot of holes in his story and a lack of personality, which annoys more experienced GMs who want players to give them characters with a little more depth.

>>52536231
>The DM should know those flaws from the start and they should be in Bob's backstory.
>>52536291
Yeah, those motivations and flaws should be clearly described in the backstory.
Those flaws ARE in Bob's backstory if you actually bothered to pay attention.

I even referenced them in my post here >>52535643 based off what I wrote here >>52522227 in response to the criteria posted here >>52522169

Again, you seem very lazy and inept as a GM considering how much you need to be spoonfed.

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>>52536374
Sounds neat.
Wizard matches could be incredibly unrealistic duels.

>>52536390
Depth is achieved through play, not through backstory. If you need depth before play, something is terribly wrong with you.

>>52536390
That's why I said first time Gms will run with him best.
>>52536381
From what I've seen Bob wants both.
He wishes to be the fairytale knight that children dream of becoming.
If more time went into him then you have a very good Charecter.

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>>52536439
But it's the fairy-tale knight part that's interesting.
Bob wants to become a great hero, and to do this he must become more powerful.
Dumblesnore wants to receive recognition for his studies in a favored field of arcane lore and open a college, to do this he seeks knowledge.
Olly Twist intends to be known as the deftest thief in history, especially if his name is never tied to the heist. To do this, he needs connections.

Just collecting power, knowledge, or favors without a goal in mind isn't interesting. Exploring for what reason a character wants these things is.

Does backstory necessarily need to be a thing at the start? Like it takes me a few sessions to get a personality pinned down and it's only from there I can think about motives and what happened in his life to lead up to where he is now. I'm really bad at coming up with shit on the spot.

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>>52536508
True.
As a skeleton of a Charecter though bob seems alright.

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>>52536394
>Expects the GM to invent his character's personailty for him
>Calls others lazy

My friend, the issue is that a man who wants to become the best knight ever could have any number of personality traits.
An honest, hardworking man who just wants to perfect his craft
A perfectionist, who values other's opinions above all else
A man who hates what he does but tries to live up to his dead father's expectations
And that's not even touching on what he's actually like. What's he like to talk to? Is he a likeable individual? Does he have many friends?
A backstory that short just leaves so many questions unanswered, and the GM is gonna have to work around the backstory, not with it.

>>52536419
I need depth of backstory so I'm not inventing this guy's friends for him. I'll even use one of your asinine examples >>52535643
>Bob meets a hero that he studied under but circumstance forces him to witness the dark side of being a knight

So what, it's my job to come up with this NPC wholesale and then drop him on the player like he's supposed to have any idea who he is? Like it's not even like this dude is hinted at in Bob's backstory because Bob's backstory is just three sentences amounting to little more than "I want to reach 20th Level". I have to write this entire NPC from scratch. What order does he belong to? What was his exact relationship to Bob? Did he and Bob have a falling out? Did Bob just leave? How does Bob actually feel about this character? I can come up with far more interesting answers to these questions if I actually get some kind of input from Bob's player. As it stands, Bob's player (you) is just demanding I work him into the story and then have him show up like Bob's player actually knows who he is even though this is the first time Bob's player has /ever/ actually encountered this person.

Now if Bob's player actually gave me some information on this guy I could work with it and make interesting. But he's just a Literally Who to the player himself, which is disgustingly lazy. Nothing is worse than a guy who expects me to come up with his entire life for him because he can't be bothered to give himself any real backstory.

>>52536439
>>52536559
Bob's fine as he is, he just needs a GM who is willing to challenge him to see if he actually has what it takes to be the knight he wants to become without losing his chivalry along the way due to greed and pride.

There are characters that have flimsier reasons for why they're doing what they're doing but the fun is seeing how these characters grow and learn as a result of the world around them, which is where the GM would come in since the GM IS the world.

>>52536561
Literally every single one of those questions could be answered through play.
>>52536562
> Like it's not even like this dude is hinted at in Bob's backstory
Read >>52522227
>I trained to become a knight under the most prestigious heroes of the land.
>What order does he belong to? What was his exact relationship to Bob? Did he and Bob have a falling out? Did Bob just leave? How does Bob actually feel about this character?
All of that can be answered through play or through basic interaction with the setting.
>Now if Bob's player actually gave me some information on this guy I could work with it and make interesting
Again, read >>52522227 again and this time, please pay attention.

>>52536394
As I said before Bob's backstory as written is sufficient for the other players. However, a DM would likely want his relations with these great heroes of the land elaborated on, also why did the great heroes take interest in Bob and train him.
>>52536533
Probably not from the very start, the DM should start the campaign with a few sessions on how the characters met eachother, establish starting IC relations between the characters and have their first adventure together so that the players get a feel for the world and their character. However, the DM should have your backstory after that first adventure.

>>52536562
This guy put it better than I possibly could

>>52536676
Saying "yeah there were some knights who trained him" is a far cry from saying "And he tutored under Ser Stone of the Greathammer Order, a hard but fair man who took on an almost paternal role in Bob's life". And even this is really bare-bones. But at least it's got more depth to it than what you came up with. And your movitatiosn still suck. They're impersonal, boring, and a transparent abstraction of game rules.

>>52536700
Makes a great point with
> a DM would likely want his relations with these great heroes of the land elaborated on, also why did the great heroes take interest in Bob and train him.

Your backstory is obnoxiously vague and you keep defending it as having everything a GM needs to come up with a good backstory. Which it does, except for one major oversight: I AM NOT PLAYING BOB. You are. I should not have to write up your friends, loved ones, or your reasons for why anyone would want you to be their pupil. It's my job as the GM to take what actual backstory you give me and weave into a larger narrative which impacts everyone at the table. Not write up my own PC and hand it to you. It's really ballsy of you to go off on how GMs are lazy for not caring about a character you don't even care about.

>>52536700
>However, a DM would likely want his relations with these great heroes of the land elaborated on,
Why? We don't need to see every second that Luke Skywalker trained under Obi-Wan before they reached the death star and until the prequels, we didn't need to see Obi-Wan being trained by Qui-Gon in order to establish that he was a fairly powerful Jedi.

It's enough that they trained my character to be a knight before he set out on his first journey, they only need to be elaborated upon later if, and only if, they suddenly become important to the narrative later on, but by that point it's no longer backstory, it's actual play.
>also why did the great heroes take interest in Bob and train him.
I could easily just point my character's above average STR, DEX, and CON to infer that Bob earned the attention of his mentors by being magnitudes stronger than the average peasant, which would be self-evident once we play and Bob starts cleaving through enemies with great efficiency.

>>52536844
>We don't need to see every second that Luke Skywalker trained under Obi-Wan
No but we do actually, you know, MEET Obi-wan. We also know Luke has a personal investment in becoming a Jedi. Then we meet Han Solo, whose backstory is more of a blank but we still know specific things about him
>He owns a ship which he charters for money
>He runs a high price because he owes a lot to Jabba

>I could easily just point my character's above average STR, DEX, and CON to infer that Bob earned the attention of his mentors by being magnitudes stronger than the average peasant, which would be self-evident once we play and Bob starts cleaving through enemies with great efficiency.

I think I'm starting to see the real issue here. You're under the impression what other players need to know about your character is no different than what the GM needs to know. The GM is not a character in Star Wars, nor is the audience. The writer and the viewer need to know different things about the characters than what the characters know about each other.

>>52536826
I don't know who the big movers and shakers of your setting is Mr. DM, and that's even assuming that you bothered coming up with names that aren't from someone else's backstory in the first place.

If you're not supposed to "play my character" as the GM then I shouldn't be expected to fill in your setting as a player either.

>>52536920
>No but we do actually, you know, MEET Obi-wan.
We meet him but only after he's referenced by Leia's hologram after Luke unwittingly unlocks the message in the R2 unit.
>The writer and the viewer need to know different things about the characters than what the characters know about each other.
You already have enough to produce a starting point and an arc to test his resolve against adversity, how much more do you honestly need to know that cannot be answered during play?

>>52536992
The guy has given you a whole bunch of examples of what he'd like to know. If you want to meet sir faggot of the fellhammer order, for example, he's gonna need to know in advance so he can put the order in his setting.

>>52536972
>I don't know who the big movers and shakers of your setting is Mr. DM, and that's even assuming that you bothered coming up with names that aren't from someone else's backstory in the first place.

I would far rather my players give me ideas for important people to show up than just foisting some Literally Who NPC onto them and expecting it to mean something.

>>52536992
>You already have enough to produce a starting point and an arc to test his resolve against adversity
Yeah, and it's boring. I don't care if it just barely meets the criteria of a serviceable jumping off point. Bob has no real personality. He has no real history. It's just a bunch of vague training and more training under people Bob's player doesn't even know. Then he just leaves and becomes an adventurer because he wants to be an adventurer. Yawn. I would rather focus on PCs who actually have some more meat to them. Instead of the guy who is at this point outright refusing to give me more information and demands we just figure out this character from play. Which won't work because not even Bob's player has any real understanding of Bob.

You can bring this character to my table but don't be surprised when I don't do anything with him.

>>52537055
I don't even know what orders exist within the DM's world, let alone who the major characters within the order are. He already knows that a) I trained under some major heroes and b) they belong to an order of knight; I made the seed, now it's the DM's job to see how this would fit within his setting.

>>52537124
ASK HIM. Its not like its some super massive secret. Talk to him about Bob, let him help you develop the character. It'd take like 5 -15 mins, absolute tops

>>52537124
>now it's the DM's job to see how this would fit within his setting.

A DM can fit this into any setting you dongus. That's the main reason why it sucks. Your backstory is so obnoxiously vague and generic I can't see why I should care at all about it. If you give me some more personality to it then I can make the worldbuilding more personal to you. I don't know who these heroes are; they're your invention. So why not go all out and give me some more to it than they're just "heroes". Same thing with this knightly order. I, the GM, am giving you a good amount of creative control over who you want your character to be. And you're getting angry about it, stamping your feet and demanding me to "do my job" by effectively railroading your entire personality and agenda. You suck.

It's clear you just want the GM to write your character for you. Which go ahead I guess, but at that point you lose the right to complain if the GM either does nothing or takes it all in a direction which you never intended.

>>52537099
>I would far rather my players give me ideas for important people to show up than just foisting some Literally Who NPC onto them and expecting it to mean something.
When you give me a generic setting, I will give you a "generic" backstory in response.
>Bob has no real personality
Because we haven't played yet.
>He has no real history
Because your setting has no history.
>It's just a bunch of vague training and more training under people Bob's player doesn't even know.
Because I have no idea who else even exists within your setting.
>I would rather focus on PCs who actually have some more meat to them.
So basically players who actually did most of the work for you.
>Instead of the guy who is at this point outright refusing to give me more information and demands we just figure out this character from play.
As opposed to what? Writing a book or something?
>You can bring this character to my table but don't be surprised when I don't do anything with him.
Well you are lazy.

>>52537226
Which was the original intention but now I'm arguing with an autist who expects me to just MAKE the whole damn setting for him or something.

>ITT: GMs who need such complete control over their settings that they railroad and restrict player choice before the game even starts

worldbuilding was a mistake

>>52537253
Ok, now you're just baiting
No-one can project this much and think its ok, surely?

>>52537233
>It's clear you just want the GM to write your character for you.
It's also clear that you basically just want your players to write your setting for you.

>>52537253
>assumptions and implications

You've never once made any reference to not having any information until this point. You're assuming the GM just dumped you in some Renaissance Park and said "have fun". Who's to say I haven't done any worldbuilding or provided any of that kind of information. You, however, deliberately said you'd put no real effort into backstory and demand the GM handle that. Only now are you saying "yeah, well, maybe if you gave me some setting info!"

Your entire argument is you are in the right for giving a character with no actual history beyond the most generic and gamist motivations I've ever seen and now you're trying to say it's because the GM didn't let you know ahead of time what this setting was like.

>>52537275
>>52537304
Then talk to the motherfucker and ask him what orders are already in his setting.
He'll probably tell you if you say the words, although at this point I suspect you'll just declare that 'too much effort' and give up

>>52537285
If you had taken my backstory, helped me fill in the more vague aspects with elements from your setting, and generally just gave me more details about YOUR world so that my three sentences were more personable, then we could've squashed this already.

Instead, you expect me to write your setting while getting butthurt at my "lack of detail."

>>52537304
Yes, asking a player "does your character have friends" is demanding they do my worldbuilding for me.

>>52537253
>So basically players who actually did most of the work for you.
Yes, I will reward players who actually put effort into their character backstory by weaving that backstory into the main plot.

I'm not demanding five pages of detail on these characters. Just basic but specific summaries of who these people are and what's actually important to them, as well as some kind of real, human reason why they're doing what they're doing. "I just want to be a champion" is a pretty shallow reason unless you're some doofy Quixotic hero.

>>52537349
>He'll probably tell you if you say the words, although at this point I suspect you'll just declare that 'too much effort' and give up
It really wouldn't.

>I'm Bob and I hail from the village of Nob. I trained as a squire under Sir Stone of the Greathammer Order who noticed my above average strength and tenacity during a raid on my village. I'm traveling with the party to hone my skills in the field and to fund my exploits as I set my own path towards becoming a knight of legend.

That's all I needed, but instead of giving me this much, the DM would rather go on about how I need MORE detail so he could fill HIS setting, which I refuse to do if he's not willing to help me fill out the blanks.

>>52519373
>be elf
>people can't stand you because you're so superior
>turn into doggo when dealing with people and you don't need to talk
>be the best boy because you actually know what people are saying
>even if they already know you're a smarmy elf they can't do anything because you're a doggo
>elves win again

>>52537416
>Yes, asking a player "does your character have friends" is demanding they do my worldbuilding for me.
How are my character's friends important to the narrative that you've set forth for the campaign? Why should I waste time mentioning them if I'm suspicious of you killing them off for cheap drama?

If they're that important, it'll come up during play.
>Yes, I will reward players who actually put effort into their character backstory by weaving that backstory into the main plot.
You say that as you continue arguing with me about how I need MORE detail when it's already enough detail to weave into the plot already.

"Show, don't Tell" is the mantra that any storyteller should live by. It serves nothing if I say "I was greedy but now I'm not because reasons" but if I'm forced to face consequences for being a greedy asshole and I learn how to be less of one during play, that's much more interesting.

>>52531349
Is it absolutely never acceptable to kill another player character? I am considering murdering another player character because they raped my character last session.

>>52537670
It's acceptable to murder a player character if it's for roleplaying.

How the fuck did you let yourself get raped?

>>52537619
>How are my character's friends important to the narrative that you've set forth for the campaign?

I don't know, I haven't set forth a narrative for the campaign yet. Typically you're not supposed to do that before the players make their characters, and part of the reason for that is because it's easier to figure out what your players have buy-in for that way. The wizard's wizarding rival is now an antagonist I can use. The ranger's missing father is now a hook I can build off of. You've given me pretty much nothing.

>>52537729
>I don't know, I haven't set forth a narrative for the campaign yet.
Then there's no reason to mention them yet.
>You've given me pretty much nothing.
I've given you mentors who trained my character and are apparently great heroes within the land.

But sure, I didn't give you anything to use, whatever.

>>52537709
My body was being puppeteered by a demon prince and I couldn't move my body. One of the other characters took advantage of my inability to resist.

>>52537782
What the fuck, nobody in the table cared?

Also what's your class? Cut his neck while he is sleeping.

>>52537820
The demon prince in question had turned me into an animal (with my mind still in tact) and forced me to dance for his amusement as punishment for defying him. The other character I mentioned was afflicted by a long term madness effect that went something like "I must take what I want and not let anything get in my way." (I don't remember the exact wording.) He interpreted that to mean rape. He was a druid, so he shifted into animal form and did the deed. I'm not sure if the other characters didn't realize what was happening because we were in the form of animals, but in any case, they did not intervene. I am playing a neutral good death cleric.

>>52537961
>good

Oh. Then I would remove revenge since he was possessed. Unless you can prove the character did it malicious.

>>52537670

Two stupid edgelord actions don't make a campaign good again, and you shouldn't bother playing campaigns that are full of retards.

Players doing dumb shit to each other is a symptom of the 'I am 12 and what is this' gaming experience and you won't lose anything by leaving that group or getting THAT GUY kicked

That might be acceptable behavior if everyone in the party is going 'lololol XD we're playing D&D how RANDOM dddddd' in which case do whatever, but for the most part pointless pvp conflict like is unacceptable

>>52538074
He was not possessed. He was afflicted by a long term madness effect as a result of exposure to demon princes. My character is also afflicted by a long term madness effect, basically an obsession with justice.

>>52538127
Ah, then you are allowed to kill him. Say that you did it 'for justice'.

>>52538471
This. Also, stop playing as a female character if you hate being raped.

>>52521602
>it rips

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>>52538127
Obviously, if his madness drove him to obscenity, yours lines up perfectly to do the same.
Decide if your justice is death or counter-rape, and look for the opportunity (respectively duel challenge, abandonment, conspiracy, entrap with a monster or oral, anal, gang, or entrap with a monster)
FOR JUSTICE

>>52522343
>basically share your stats between two beings
No? You can just buy a dog for 25 gp or so and it has its own stats.