>there are people on this board right now who think hit points

i thought it represented the damage each hit dealt

>forcedelf.jpg

Don't try to bring this back.

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>DnD

ridiculous.

That's clearly the role of hit _dice_.

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>>52490897
That would be a really cool idea.

If you have 4 hit points, you can get hit four times. Weapon type doesn't matter, no rolling for damage.

Martial classes with multiple attacks per round would count as multiple hits.

This is a good idea, thanks OP!

>>52492510
>What is a war game
Wow that's a great idea, thanks 1972!

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>>52490919

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>>52490897
>hp don't equal hp
>mfw

HP is a combination of plot armor and meatpoints, starting at 100% meatpoints at level 1 and steadily converting to 90% plot armor at level 20

>>52492866
>level 20 wizard survives getting dunked in lava with plot points
Good point anon

>>52492986
>Level 20 Wizard
>not having hundreds if not thousands of tiny magical wards of protection and control to contain and control his god-like powers

Yeah totally pure meat points...

>>52493041
What page were those on again?

>>52493089
The same page that says Hit Points are not Meat Points. Those are the "plot" portion of your hp you fucking autistic fuckwit.

>>52493307
lol

>>52490897
>>there are people on this board right now who think hit points represent the number of hits you can take

>playing shit games that don't divide HP into Health and Stamina, the former of which represents actual wounds that you have to heal, while the latter represents "plot armor" that instantly replenishes after the encounter
It's your own fault for playing shit games.

>>52490897
40k systems would want to have a word with you.

>>52492530
>1913
Here, ftfy

>>52494133
ty

>>52493588
This, tbqh.

>>52492866
That's why distinction of Vitality and Wounds exists

ITT: Reasonable people and those who still don't think that HP=plot armor/meat points.

>>52492866
Every fucking time.
Now imagine this level 20 character, full HP.
I stab him with a poisoned knife. He rolls 1 on the save, and thus has venom in his blood.
This means that I did not "remove plot points", but I indeed wounded him. The effect is before our eyes.

High level characters are like Guts in berserk. They have an almost supernatural resistance, they are closer to divinity/elements/fey/ancestors/dependfromthesetting, but the blows land and hurt for real.

>>52497600
A level 20 character has enough plot armor to survive poisons that would easily fell lesser men just because they're that important to the story.

If the poison in an insta-kill poison then obviously that character's death was necessary for the plot to occur, like how Kamina died in the first part of Gurren Lagann or how Obi-Wan needed to die in episode 4.

I mean, it's funny how you reference Guts when Guts is notorious for surviving blows that would kill most people even BEFORE he gained the Berserker armor.

>>52497748
hai yai forces

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>playing a system where HP loss doesn't always represent physical injury

>this BS again

yeah, we know, "plot armour points" rather than "meatpoints" that's what bad systems claim HP to be.

But as with any claim, it is not worth shit. Game mechanics doesn't support this claim except in certain range of controlled circumstances that is a small fraction of the game. Literally whenever you get past "two guys are trying to hit each other in melee" it starts to fall apart. Ranged weapon "hits", environmental damage, hitpoints and many magical effects suddenly go against the grain of this theoretical claim, making it worthless bullshit that lazy designers include as a disclaimer in effort to avoid actually answering the questions.

And that's just theoretical part. When you try to apply it to actual game it gets much fucking worse. Trying to translate this bad attempt at abstraction abstract mechanics are good, actually better than explicit ones but they need to be easy and intuitive to translate into narrative on spot, which HP aren't by any means

That previous part makes me think that people defending HP bloat by argument of it being "not raw meatpoints hurr" are either theorycrafters that don't actually play anything, or play H&S/DC games where narration and RP actually not really matter - which is ok if they enjoy that, but why the hell are trying to shill the mechanics that only work for that playstyle to people who actually play RPGs more narratively and find it unsuitable? Why they do have to defend their precious HPs in aspects they don't actually don't know anything about, or give a shit?

>>52497748
But the blow were absorbed by his extraordinarily trained body. His all about his training (levels) not about plot armour.
Training is both absorbing the blow and moving in a way to make it less lethal. You don't need plot armour to explain that.
But if you explain with plot armour HPs, you can't explain an envenomed blade.

>>52497600
>doesn't die from the poison
Guess you didn't really poison him.

Suddenly, playing with Vitality is makes me happy.
Thanks, DM.

>>52490897
>implying hit points are luck points when on-hit effects and damage types are a thing
D&D characters are heroic figures that can shrug off damage that would kill a real human even at low levels, playing something that actually attempts to model real life if that rustles you.

>>52498702
>every poison/medicine either kills you or does nothing
tell me you are pretending to be retarded.

>>52493588
I was going to ask about this exact kind of mechanic. What systems do use it? Any recommendations?

>>52498647
>But if you explain with plot armour HPs, you can't explain an envenomed blade.
Did the poison kill you?
>If yes, your body couldn't safely process the poison through your body.
>If no, your body manages to safely process the poison through your body.

Plot armor just means that you can explain away non-killing blows as "they're just that X to handle Y" and move shit along to the important bits.

If you're stopping to think about how illogical this is, it usually means that your campaign/system is so boring that people actually take the time to question why a dude who has five levels in Fighter is capable of surviving a ballista bolt to the chest with no penalties.

Then again, since only the last point of HP matters and everything else is just bloat, I guess it's one of those self-fulfilling prophecies.

>>52498724
Poison sucks in D&D dude, there's a reason why nobody fucking uses it. If you want poison to do more besides either killing the target or doing nothing, play a better system.

>>52498822
>>52498838

'When a wise man points at the moon the imbecile examines the finger.'

The point went completely over you head.
The point is not the effect of the poison per se. It could even just be an alchemical substance that changes your skin colour or whatever.

The point is that if you explain the loss of HP with loss of "plot points", you create a disconnect immediately perceived by the players when a situation like the one described arises (that is, a full HP character is poisoned by the first stab, whatever it means).

Instead, the body resistance and resilience and the ability to move in a way that minimises te impact but does not completely avoids the blow, typical of an high level PC, explains the high HP amount without creating a disconnect.

So explain what hit points represents in this situation.

I am naked in bed
I am sleeping next to my wife
I have 50 hit points
She stabs me with a knife right in the chest

What happens?

>>52498961
You writhe around gasping and bleeding for several hours until you die of blood loss

>>52498961
You take 1d4-2 damage and roll initiative

>>52498961
Depends. How much damage does she do with the knife? Is it just 1d4+STR? Did she confirm a critical hit? Does she have sneak attack? Did she line up a coup de grace?

>>52498925
>Instead, the body resistance and resilience and the ability to move in a way that minimises te impact but does not completely avoids the blow, typical of an high level PC, explains the high HP amount without creating a disconnect.
That's exactly what I did here though >>52498822

So not only did you dump INT, you dumped WIS as well for a) not noticing that I just said the same point and b) actually believing that nobody would notice that.

>>52498961
If you have 50 hit points, you are one with enough reflexes and stamina to transcend all the humans you know. You probably wake up thanks to the instinct that helped you to dodge orc blows and avoid to be invested by dragon flames all these years.

And still, you have to save vs the damage, that is an automatic critic, so you have a chance to succumb.

If it's you YOU, well a basement dweller has 1-4 HP, you you can imagine how it ends. And normal humans, too can survive nasty shit. Even an iron tube in the skull. Is just a low chance.

>>52498961
>If you have enough HP to survive the blow, you're tough enough to ignore the stab wound.
>If you don't have enough HP, your wife stabs you in the heart and you die instantly.

>>52499034
My dear friend, it was more for the other poster.
Also, you have to have the humility to understand that when others don't get what you say, it could be that is because you have not been clear enough.

>>52499071
>Also, you have to have the humility to understand that when others don't get what you say, it could be that is because you have not been clear enough.
see >>52498822

Did the poison kill you?
>If yes, your body couldn't safely process the poison through your body.
>If no, your body manages to safely process the poison through your body.

If you can't understand this then you're not smart enough to continue engaging in this conversation. Also, humility only applies when my reputation is on the line, not when I'm engaging with morons on the internet for giggles.

>>52498961
Well, you're sleeping, so you count as "helpless." Your wife can coup de grâce with a full round action.

Auto crit with max damage, so 2d4 (8) + 2 (lol -4 str) for a total of 10. DC 15 base Fort save vs. instant death, +10 from damage taken for a total DC25 check. Assuming you have 50hp and are a melee-class build, you've probably got good Fort save and are around level 5-6. +5 base, with +2/3 from Con, and I'll toss in an miscellaneous +1 just for fun. That gives you +9 vs. DC25.

Your wife most likely kills you instantaneously, or at least fast enough for you to garble out some dying words. If she's unlucky, you're still alive, but with a rather nasty chest wound. 10hp loss from your 50 total doesn't seem like much, but if I were your DM you bet you're not getting off easy.

>>52493858
You don't get to have hundreds of hitpoints in the 40k RPGs, though. Even Space Marines don't get more than a handful.

>>52499151
You completely missed the point on the poison (the important thing was the knife wound) example but whatever man. If you want to continue to feel superior, whatever.

>>52499151
>Also, my behaviour depends on if I can get out scot-free from it
wew lad you must be a wonderful person IRL

>>52499452
Listen mate, either the attack was enough to kill you or it wasn't, the how and why doesn't matter because you're only in danger if you're down to 0 HP. Doesn't matter if it's a knife wound or poison or however you're striking an opponent and you're missing the trees for the forest.
>>52499506
I'm certainly a wonderful person when I'm with people whose company I enjoy, not some random faggots being retarded on the internet.

>>52499763
Poisons in pathfinder deal repeating damage. In 4th edition you have the bloodied condition, in many system bleeding after the blow.
And again, is not the point. You are moving the goalpost. The point was that HP are not plot points. Everything else you added was not relevant for the discussion.

>>52499204
>10hp loss from your 50 total doesn't seem like much, but if I were your DM you bet you're not getting off easy.
So now we've arrived at the requisite "just use houserules" defense in our daily D&Defense force debate.

A dude with 50hp wouldn't even be bloodied from 10 HP faggot, so at best, his wife just gave him the equivalent of a stubbed toe or a paper cut because she wasn't smart enough to account for his higher than average fortitude.

>>52499763
>I'm certainly a wonderful person
sure you are buddy. sure you are.

>>52499830
Well why would I be friendly to you when a) I don't know you and b) you're acting like faggot?

It's not like you're giving me compelling reasons to believe that you're worth engaging in an actual conversation with.

>>52498795
It was a D&D variant that took over d20 Star Wars for a while, before Saga Edition came along and became proto-4e.

>>52499895
You derailed this discussion with a completely useless point and yet you call me a faggot.

>there are people on this board right now
>cryingus.jpg

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>>52490897
This is true. It's just that some attacks count as multiple hits.

>>52499806
>The point was that HP are not plot points.
Yes they are, simply because you get so many so soon that you can easily survive blows that would kill random peasants.

Why can the Fighter survive a ballista bolt (3d8) to the chest? Because his mamma ain't raise no bitch!

Is it unrealistic? Hell yeah it is, but at the same time if the game doesn't scale the damage properly and adds mechanics that weaken its own explanation as far as what HP is "supposed" to represent, then that's a fault with the system not properly conveying what a lethal blow is supposed to look like.

So rather than invent a bunch of shit that'll fall apart under slight scruntiny, it's easier just to say "plot armor" and leave at that since most players expect their characters to be badasses anyways.

>>52498961
Depends on who the PC is.

>>52500016
Yeah, because you're getting triggered over a random anon calling a spade a spade and turning this discussion into how I shouldn't hurt your precious fee-fees.

If you don't want to derail the thread, stop replying.

>>52497600
Plot armor is a % reduction in damage, not an overshield. 4e is heresy.

>>52490897
Just fucking use GURPS or Traveller or Riddle of Steel or /sos/

>>52498961
At 50 HP? I'd probably say if you survived the Coup attempt it would be because you woke up at the last instant and guided the knife into your shoulder.

At 100+ HP however I would say the knife crumples laughably like an accordion leaving a small bruise.

People who want realism in d&d should probably try playing something other than d&d.

>>52500043
>Why can the Fighter survive a ballista bolt (3d8) to the chest?
"to the chest" in which extent? Blocked by armor+shield, just the tip entered (unfortunate sentence to write here I guess)? Or the bolt hit the side without getting stuck, and its relatively superficial? Or maybe this is a 20th level fighter, is almost a demi-god so in this case even a full hit is not enough.

The arguments don't fall apart. The description of the GM may vary and that's about it. The "plot points" falls apart in the moment a certain effect is applied to the blow, see the poison above.

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>>52492866
There really should be a better system. Here's one:

HP -Health points. Entirely determined by constitution score (or equivalent) and level (not class). Represents physical well being in real, objective sense. If you get stabbed, poisoned, punched, et cetera, it takes out HP. Without magical aid, it takes a VERY long time to regain HP, and HP has diminishing returns in growth as you level - even a really buff fighter guy can't get THAT much stronger than a skinny wizard weakling so that he can be shot with forty arrows and live while the nerd gets hit with a pebble and dies. Therefore you cut the CON bonus in half every 5 character levels (rounding up). Any and all HP loss without death is a "wound" and in a hardcore game there should be ability point loss thresholds at HP loss percentages.

2nd System

FP - Fate Points. Literalized plot armor. Every time an attack glances, misses, or somehow is stopped without direct focus given to the attempt to prevent it by the player, it drains their "fate". As a person who's on an adventure, the PCs are at least somewhat protected by fate, which is why they have fate points in the first place. FP can be recovered far more easily than HP and will likely see more growth based on level and potentially any key stat dependent on class.

In terms of gameplay mechanics, the FP and HP relationship is like the shields and meathealth in Halo 1. FP is drained first before HP and recovers much more quickly, but guards against HP loss. If you lose all your FP, then you start losing HP. But FP can be recovered much more quickly (and it makes more sense for a cleric to restore FP instantly through say divine intervention than HP in this context) and is separate from HP in most regards (but may be linked to other systems).

There ya go, problems solved forever.

>>52500200
>"to the chest" in which extent?
Again, missing the trees for the forest.
>The "plot points" falls apart in the moment a certain effect is applied to the blow, see the poison above.
You keep saying this but I don't see how it falls apart. Also, I thought that the whole poison angle wasn't relevant to this discussion so why bring it up?

>>52500200
So you have a tiny prick from that knife. Doesn't even hurt and will probably heal by tomorrow. Still enough to get the poison into your system.

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>>52499042
>well a basement dweller has 1-4 HP,
please, Robots on 4chan don't even class up enough for a d4.

d2 at best.

>>52500256
You are using as a refusal the same very points I used against you. Bu the discussion raised from MY post about the poison. You are devoid of logic.
You keep running in circles.
Have fun, I am done with you.

>>52500269
>>52500256
>>52500200
The point is that HP is a combination of meat points, and ways of avoiding critical damage [such as skill, luck, etc].

The proportion of which to which depends on your PC, and how much HP you actually have. At low levels its basically all meat, and you die easily. At higher HP values like levels 4-6 its partially skill and fighting ability, but you ARE legitimately more durable then the average person.

And at much higher values [HP 70, 80, 90+] you really ARE so durable and inhuman that a ballista hitting you square in the chest is just going to knock you down and piss you off.

>>52500319
>I have a point
>but it's not relevant
>except when it is, specifically when I'm using it against you.
K familia, maybe you should take a nap before you try to use big boy logic next time.

>>52500349
Or, you die at level 1 as a way to subvert audience expectations that you're a protagonist, by level 5, you've stuck around long enough to actually become integral to the overall narrative, while at level 10, you're decidedly the main character of this campaign so most blows aren't going to be enough to defeat you anymore unless you're hit with something that's meant to be 100% fatal.

>>52500480
That's retarded and seems like a ridiculous effort to ignore the fact that higher level martial characters are explicitly inhuman.

No amount of luck is going to save you from a Fireball when you're right in its radius, or from being attacked by a giant, or falling from orbit.

Even if you did make up ridiculous contrivances to why that is the case, that's still a pants-on-head retarded idea.

it's the number of hits an elf stored in a vault in France would be able to take to its face, i thought it was common knowledge

That's why the rules make no distinction and everything boils down to hitting each other until one's hp is 0.

Just because the book says it doesn't mean it means anything.

>>52500548
>ridiculous contrivances
the GM describing a blow is "ridiculous contrivances"

>>52500548
It doesn't require any effort at all, I basically just say something to the effect of "he stabs you in the torso, but luckily you're tough enough to ignore the wound."

It honestly takes more effort to justify it than it does just to handwave it and if me and my group want wounds that actually matter beyond the last one lost, we'll just play something like ShadowRun where losing health actually means something beyond having a smaller safety net.

>>52500620
No, but the idea that a level 10 Fighter is a normal human being with more plot armor then Batman is retarded in the context of the setting.

These beings are superhuman. There is nothing stopping you, if your setting or PC wants it, from adding "divine protection" to the list of things HP is composed of, but you can't make that ENTIRELY what HP is without seriously undermining the concepts behind the game.

Unless of course you do a World-As-Myth style game, where this narrative force is an acknowledged in-setting phenomenon, and "Heroes" who can control the narrative are a recognized thing.

>>52500659
>No, but the idea that a level 10 Fighter is a normal human being with more plot armor then Batman is retarded in the context of the setting.
It's amazing how you can both dismiss and affirm the same point within the same sentence like that.
>Unless of course you do a World-As-Myth style game, where this narrative force is an acknowledged in-setting phenomenon, and "Heroes" who can control the narrative are a recognized thing.
In almost every story known to man, the narrative is always being controlled by the actions of the protagonists, for better or for worse. I mean, you think that the empire was going to destroy itself without Luke and the gang making their rolls and helping the rebels?

Acknowledging plot armor is just the simplest method to explain how HP works. You're basically just adding shit that doesn't need to be added, that will just lead to confusion the second someone starts asking questions.

>ITT reasons to only play WFRPG and 40kRPGs

>>52500659
oh, absolutely

>Acknowledging plot armor is just the simplest method to explain how HP works.
It kills immersion for many, more than "is super trained". And many love the GM (or sometimes the players) describing the hit and what's happening in general.

>>52501191
Just because you acknowledge HP as plot armor doesn't mean that you can't describe why someone was able to survive the blow, it just makes it easier to handwave why PC's can do silly shit like walking on lava, falling off cliffs, and getting cut by a long sword without even breaking so much as a pinky toe.

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>>52500590

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just stop trying to pretend they aren't meat points
i don't even see how this is a problem
is it just a bunch of GMs trying to defend their right to instantly kill their players by having something hit them while they're asleep?
"your character is now dead because i decided that, congrats, make a new character"

>>52501191
Do you describe each and every attack? I've taken to only doing that occasionally - like when a combatant goes down, or it's a crit, or something like that. And half the time, I let the player describe. "Alright, you land a really impressive hit on the ogre - what happened?"

>>52499016
This made me chuckle

HP is more than just health or "plot armor".

It's a simplified representation of the complex interaction of the three aspects of taking damage - injury resistance, injury tolerance, and injury mitigation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fp3SuwaLQwE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH5M_f8N97M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQcXxatJfbw

There's even a real-life pseudo-equivalent to hit points...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dH_CNcSv5TM

>>52501555
>It's a simplified representation of the complex interaction of the three aspects of taking damage - injury resistance, injury tolerance, and injury mitigation.
Yet within the context of D&D, HP boils down to plot armor.

>>52501623
No, it is exactly what I said it was.

Just because you don't wanna think about it doesn't make it wrong.

>>52501720
>No, it is exactly what I said it was.
Not really.

Injury resistance implies that something like DR would exist to help lower the amount of damage that's being applied to your character.

Injury tolerance implies that there's a difference between being at full health and being at 1 within the context of the game beyond having a smaller safety net against an enemy's next attack.

Injury mitigation implies that you could make something like an opposed defense roll in order to either dodge an incoming attack (which wouldn't make sense because AC exists) or utilize your skill to turn a fatal blow into just an injury.

Of course, none of these aspects are taken into account within the context of the game because the only rule that matters is "if you're at 0 HP, you're unconscious and if you reach -10, you die."

Trying to add more detail will make you look as foolish as the guy questioning why Superman can fly.

>>52501498
It depends how long the combat drags, and how spectacular is the effect, the PCs involved, and the involvement of the players.
Yes, i often allow the players to describe, but some of them is a fan of how I describe.
It varies. The detailed varies from "slash" to a detailed description of which internal organs hit which floor. More the former of course.

>>52501623
People in the thread and the videos did show is not, but you keep being a retard.

>>52501962
If you're so sure that you're right than reference something from the actual rulebook, not some theory-crafting nonsense that tries to make HP be more than it actually is.

>>52502049
>what is the burden of proof

>>52502078
I've already explained why your "evidence" is irrelevant, now it's your turn to prove how your "evidence" actually is relevant to this discussion.

>>52502102
Is not just mine, a lot of people contributed.
You are pathetic. You are claiming a baseless statement about "plot points" when other people gave examples of systems with lot point, and gave example of physical HP.
But yet, the OTHERS are required to demonstrate that your bullshit statement is not true.
kys

>>52502204
So basically you know that your nonsense is theory-crafting and you can't actually reference anything from the actual CRB.

Gotcha.

>>52502247
you are too dense, I give up

>>52502276
>I cannot admit that I'm wrong so I'm going to leave so I don't have to admit that you are right.
FTFY

>>52502294
whatever man. reread the thread, maybe you will realise how retarded you are.

>>52502327
Nobody ITT has ONCE cited the actual CRB to explain how HP doesn't boil down to plot armor. It's all basically theory-crafting nonsense that has no basis on actual play and as such, is irrelevant to this discussion.

Now if you can actually cite some examples from the CRB to explain your case, rather than going "y-y-y-you're dumb so I'm g-g-going home :'(" then maybe we can start getting somewhere.

But because you know that you can't, you'll continue claiming that I'm dumb and slowly slink away as you try desperately to come up with ways to divert the discussion away from your lack of solid evidence.

And for the record, citing random faggots ITT who are just as wrong as you doesn't help your case, just saying.

>>52502409
>muh appeal to authority

Designers are the same people that created CODzilla.
Even if they clearly stated "HP is plot points guys" this does not make that the most desirable solution.
The people in the thread discussed the best solution for issues like immersion, coherency, and so on, and gave examples of systems that modelled better "meat points" or "fate".

But no, you want the exact citation of the CRB. I can wipe my ass with the CRB. I bet you are one of those asshole rule-lawyers that ruin it for everybody. Assuming you actually play, because you are probably a socially disabled theorycrafter.

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>>52502409
The reason this debate never ends is because HP is meant to represent two divergent and distinct concepts:

1) Aggregate sum total of a person's physical health

2) A gameplay mechanic to allow for non-instant death and non-instant crippling injury (which in real fights using weapons like swords/guns/stuff that can mimic the effects of magic, is what occurs usually).

These two concepts clash if you focus on either aspect entirely. Yes, HP represents physical health. Yes, HP is plot armor. It's a single number meant to represent both purposes.

Something like >>52500223
solves this problem by dissecting and divorcing the two divergent purposes of HP and placing them into two different stats. Though of course, that means that you lose the advantage of a single metric.

But if you're trying to say that HP is either aspect here, you're wrong. It's a flawed incoherent concept trying to represent two fundamentally different ideas often enough. You cannot make sense of HP and must either have faith in its nonsense, or split it in twain.

that's why dwarf fortress is the best!

>>52502507
>Designers are the same people that created CODzilla.
What does this have to do with anything?
>The people in the thread discussed the best solution for issues like immersion, coherency, and so on, and gave examples of systems that modelled better "meat points" or "fate".
And now you're engaging in the "appeal to popularity" fallacy. Again, you shouldn't cite people ITT in your argument, especially when they're just as wrong as you are.
>But no, you want the exact citation of the CRB.
Yes, because this is a rules discussion. You claimed that HP is more than plot armor, I'm just waiting for you to back it up with solid evidence. Do you even have evidence?
>I can wipe my ass with the CRB.
I guess not...
>Assuming you actually play, because you are probably a socially disabled theorycrafter.
And now you're engaging in ad hominem.

You should honestly feel embarassed for yourself, but for your poor arguments and for arguing so fervently when you know that you're wrong.

>>52502776
People are trying to find a solution of what the HP represent, or a compromise like >>52502615

Is pointless to cite a CRB. You cite a rule if it models correctly, for the sake of the discussion, how the HP work. Saying that "in this system, they work like this" adds nothing to the discussion unless you are trying to use it as an example.

But that is not what you are doing. You are saying that the concept other people have is wrong because "they don't cite the rulebook".

This is why you are an utter retard. Is not an "an hominem" you are literally incapable to understand what, in a discussion, consist in an argument or a counter argument, and what is just derailing.

>>52502615
My argument is in regards to the way that D&D handles HP, not the way that games handle HP as a whole.

Why is HP called Hit Points instead of Health Points?

>>52502851
>People are trying to find a solution of what the HP represent
The easiest solution of all is not playing games where HP boils down to plot armor.
>Is pointless to cite a CRB.
Which is what a theorycrafter who has no idea what he's actually doing would say in response to someone asking them for some evidence to support their position.
>Saying that "in this system, they work like this" adds nothing to the discussion unless you are trying to use it as an example.
Which I have.
>But that is not what you are doing.
Yes it is
>You are saying that the concept other people have is wrong because "they don't cite the rulebook".
Yes, because they have no idea what they're doing.
>Is not an "an hominem"
Actually, attacking someone's character when it has nothing to do with the argument is a textbook example of ad hominem.

Again, utter disappointment.

>>52501555
Trips here got it right.

One of the things that doesn't get mentioned enough is that Damage isn't damage.
>Even though some Damage is damage, not all Damage damages or causes damage.

To me, it's not hard to see the confusion.

>>52502880
because it represents hits not health

>>52493588
>Don't use a nonsensical but simple abstraction, use this one thats just as unrealistic but more complex
For what purpose?

>>52503088

But why?

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>>52503078
>Even though some Damage is damage, not all Damage damages or causes damage.

Yeah, it's like they want it to be as confusing as possible. It's why I honestly recommend just using HP as armor and CON score as meat body health points. It simplifies everything immensely splitting up the rather confused concept that HP has become, even if it does mean that everyone has to keep track of two numbers instead of one now.

>>52503099
How the fuck is Health and Stamina complicated?

Stamina is "armor" that diminishes as you take damage and restores outside of battle. Health is what happens when you run out of stamina; any damage that isn't absorbed by your stamina becomes a wound, which leaves a lasting penalty until you heal it, which can take a long ass time depending on the severity if you heal it naturally.

What's the issue here? What makes this harder to understand?

>>52503038
>The easiest solution of all is not playing games where HP boils down to plot armor.
So that's the reason. The classic "stop having fun" k
>Which is what a theorycrafter who has no idea
You completely missed the point. You sriously have autism because you keep interpreting everything literally.
FOR THE SAKE OF THIS DISCUSSION asking people to cite the CRB, otherise their opinion is not correct, is utter stupidity. But you interpret it as "CRB cannot be followed".
Have you some kind of disorder?
>Yes it is
you have no arguments. Your action say otherwise.
> is a textbook example of ad hominem
You are a textbook example of someone incapable of subtlety you autistic fuck.
Just leave the thread now, stop crapping in it.

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>>52503119
>why?

Originally it was probably due to the wargaming nature of the roots of D&D. I've never played Chainmail, but I have played some table top wargames. The HP on units is usually very low, so the number of hits a unit might take would be low before death. Which is generally a lot more realistic. It would lead to a lot of deaths naturally, but as you control many more units than just one at a time, that's OK. You can sacrifice a few rookie footmen in your large scale battle after all.

D&D is all about taking what might be a wargaming low HP piece on a table and turning them into epic heroes of legend, which is why they have such high HP allotments in comparison. And why everything gets very out of hand and confusing when people start wondering *how* HP is supposed to function if they think about it too long.

>>52500223
A better way to represent fate or plot armor or whatever would be with a system like bennies from SW, or Inspiration. Some resource that you spend to not fail at things.

>>52503250

Oh okay. I just wanted to troll annoy someone, but thanks for that bit.

>>52503088
this is a completely void statement.

>>52503243
>So that's the reason. The classic "stop having fun" k
You're clearly not having fun if HP=plot points upsets you this much familia.
>You completely missed the point. You sriously have autism because you keep interpreting everything literally.
>FOR THE SAKE OF THIS DISCUSSION asking people to cite the CRB, otherise their opinion is not correct, is utter stupidity. But you interpret it as "CRB cannot be followed".
You're going to give yourself an aneurism mate, calm down, it's nothing to get this upset over.
>you have no arguments. Your action say otherwise.
I have clearly presented an argument, it's just that you refuse to actually engage it because you can't.
>You are a textbook example of someone incapable of subtlety you autistic fuck.
There's that ad hominem again. Y'know, if you put more time into your argument than in your excuses, maybe we'd be able to get somewhere.

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>>52503209
The only problem with using "Stamina" as a replacement for HP would be that if you include Stam, most people think it should function as an energy bar due to how it's used in other media, like video games.

Take Dark Souls, which has an HP bar for physical health, and a Stamina bar for physical energy. Perfect example of something lots of people are familiar with.

So if you use Stamina, players will think of it as a fuel for attacks, not temporary HP. Yeah, you can explain that *YOUR* stamina is different, but you're just adding needless confusion to the system.

Either creating a new, unfamiliar point value, as in here - >>52500223 or using HP as temporary regenerating plot armor points (the "Hit Point" conception) with CON as physical health (the "Health Point" conception) as in here - >>52503144
solves the problem in the same way without adding semantic confusion.

>>52503119
Because a D&D fight is supposed to resemble an Errol Flynn-Robin Hood duel.

>>52503374
>So if you use Stamina, players will think of it as a fuel for attacks, not temporary HP. Yeah, you can explain that *YOUR* stamina is different, but you're just adding needless confusion to the system.
Then change "Stamina" to something fortitude or vitality or resistance or some shit like that.

>>52503445
Too bad D&D combat generally boils down to FF style combat where you're standing in place while trying to hammer the enemy as quickly as possible.

>>52503445

I'm sorry but the only Robin Hood duel I remember is the Kevin Costner one.

>>52503209
It's not complicated, but it's objectively more complicated without adding anything

>>52503360
Half of the post is misinterpreting my contempt for rage. The other half is stating that you have argument when I did show that you are even incapable to understand what's the thread is about.
Wew lad.

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>>52490897
mfw tanking the dungeon with my high lvl and CON score thanks to the miraculous nonsense nature of HP.

This thread is like weaponized autism.

>>52503535
>Half of the post is misinterpreting my contempt for rage. The other half is stating that you have argument when I did show that you are even incapable to understand what's the thread is about.
Are you having a stroke right now?

>>52503543
>This website and culture centered around it is like weaponized autism.
fixed it for you friendo

>>52503538
Such deep cut would not happen on a full HP fighter. It would be an almost avoided scratch.

>>52503521
>objectively
Glad to know I don't have to pay attention to your input from this point forward.

>>52503567
You have officially lost the argument now, and it shows. Go to hide somewhere else, little shit.

HP are a purely mechanical abstraction used to keep the game moving. They represent different things at different times and don't actually exist in-universe.

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>>52503457
Constitution already exists and means the same basic thing as "Vitality" or resistance.

Using the CON score as Health Points makes a lot of sense. Then use HP as Plot Armor points. Call it PAP if you want.

>>52503596
I'm not the one becoming so angry that he's forgetting how to spell and use proper grammar. You also haven't done anything to actually refute my argument, yet you're proclaiming that you won even though you did nothing but sperg out and have a temper tantrum?

K senpai

>>52503445
>>52503484
You know what I just realized would fix that entirely? Removing opportunity attacks.

Thanks /tg/!

>>52503685
I am writing other stuff right now. And you don't deserve full attention, I did what I did for the sake of the thread because it has still potential.
You are literally reducing the argument to "but you spelled it wrong, bad luck", which is sad and pathetic and you know it.

Whenever someone brought examples, you sperged about "muh CRB" completely missing the point. This cannot be denied or deleted so let it go and stop posting, and stop moving the goalpost.

>>52503727
To be fair, if you had actually attacked my argument instead of engaging in several fallacies, we could've had a discussion that didn't need to derail the thread.

This is all on you senpai, you escalated the situation when all I wanted from you is a basic citation.
>Whenever someone brought examples, you sperged about "muh CRB" completely missing the point.
Can you actually cite these instances or are you just going to accuse me of being autistic again?

>>52503771
You had no arguments. This is what I am desperately trying to make you understand.

And no, I will not find the posts. Your mental damage is under the eyes of everybody, is enough reading the thread. Just stop posting.

>>52503771
>instead of engaging in several fallacies
Let me guess: you have a katana and a fedora at home, am I right?

>>52500091
Eh....4e didn't actually change anything about how hit points worked.

Healing yes, hp is the same as any other edition.

>>52503815
>And no, I will not find the posts.
Why am I not surprised that you'd refuse to cite something?
>>52503830
I wasn't even the one to bring up fallacies in the first place mate, just saying.

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>>52490919
why would you ever be this mad
elves are literally your sovereigns

>>52503895
>Why am I not surprised that you'd refuse to cite something?

Because with the last remnants of respect that I am supposed to have for you as an human being, I feel that I don't need to repeat and point out to you the very discussion we had in the same thread.
Just stop.

Let people discuss like in here >>52503849
stop posting and let go.

>>52503895
>I wasn't even the one to bring up fallacies in the first place mate, just saying.

OH WELL THEN USE THEM IN A RETARDED WAY IS ACCEPTABLE
SORRY MATE

>>52503933
You can't really complain about people not arguing effectively while you yourself argue ineffectively.

Just saying
>>52503967
There's no need to be upset.