What's the point of them wear any armor if they get killed

>>52465946
Need helmets to dehumanize them.

>>52465946
Lets the audience know who the bad guys are.

>>52465974
/thread

Armor is used to damp blaster shot and disperse it throughout the body so the stormtroopers who are getting shot are often knocked out, not dead.

>>52465974
This is the real reason, but actually lore wise that armor protects well from bullets and shrapnel. However, I remember prequels fucking even that up.

We really need a fantasy and sci-fi board where things like this can be discussed.

>>52466023
Hahaha! This is what I will tell my son when we watch the movies together next year.

>>52466058
So......literally tg?

>>52466058
Not a good idea. That would only attract shitty fanficcers and brain melting Doctor Who generals.

>>52466148
Fucking Doctor Who. It wasn't even that good of a show, I don't get why everyone fucking circle jerks all over it.

>>52466023
Can't have dozens of people die on screen in a film for the whole family.

>>52466025
That's what I always thought, but no, it was messed up. I eventually decided my headcanon would be that they protect against blunt force trauma and are sealed so they can survive in space for a few minutes and be immune to poison gas. Then I remembered that stormtroopers die from getting rocks dropped on them, get beaten down with wooden clubs, and as of Force Awakens can't even filter gas properly.

>>52465946
cheaper shittier version of clone trooper armour, which was designed to spread the damage a blaster shot does over a wide area. While unlikely to save you from a lightsaber strike or vehicle-mounted lasercannon, it'll protect from baseline blasters well enough

Whats really stupid is how the ewoks use spears and rocks to beat them

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>>52466225

>>52465946
Its not armor its a void suit. Also good for poision gas, keeping your troops faceless and dehumanized.

>>52466177
Aren't those who circle jerk over it just teenage girls from tumblr?

>>52466371
>>52466242
This shit does not make the heros look badass, it makes the troopers look incompetent.

>>52466360
Personally, I looks more like women in general that like sci-fi circle jerk over it. Well, them and some men as well. I get the women circle jerking because they're only thinking of their vaginas (how hot this doctor is and stupid shit like that), but the men should fucking know better. It's a shit show for shit loving faggots that like shoving shit back into their assholes so they can shit it out again.

>>52466411
Rogue One was the first star wars movie to do stormtroopers in a more menacing way. The armor is still shit, but at least they manage to intimidate in groups. Problem is, the seven movies before Rogue One had already established stormtroopers as silly and not dangerous at all, so it works against them even in this new light

>>52466209
>and as of Force Awakens can't even filter gas properly.
God that was super dumb.

>>52466481
Not to mention that it's not even sci-fi at all, but just dumb science fantasy with lolmagicain'tgottaexplainshit logic far worse than anything on even dumbest Star Trek eps.

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>>52466371
>That hellgun

>>52466481
I think people at first are like "oh wow this is quirky but also has drama and everyone sounds smart because they are British" but then over time you realize that it's just basically "The Doctor knows something that nobody knows and therefore solves the mystery with no consequences oh and lolrandom quip XDDDDDDDDDD"

An actually interesting high ain't Sherlock Holmes is smart and compelling because he puts all the pieces presented together and figures shit out, not because he knows something the audience would have no way of knowing and bullshits his way out

>>52467020
>high Int

I should commit sudoku for phoneposting

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>>52465946
Meta reason: They're mooks, they could wear fulll plate armor and would get defeated by a toothpick anyways.

Non-meta reason:
>wall gets hit by plaster carbine
>pic related

>stormtrooper armor gets hit by things ranging from blaster pistols to heavy cannons
>still appears to be in pristine condition
Maybe it cooks them inside, or they are just stunned by the blast. But it does have a visible effect.

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>>52465946
Better question, why wear armor that gets impaled by stone spikes that would have shattered harmlessly if you fell on them wearing an armored steel suit.

>>52466242
Why did the galaxy never mass produce droids like K2 for war? He murders the shit out of everybody like he's the fucking Terminator.

>>52466058
>We really need a fantasy and sci-fi board where things like this can be discussed.
We could call it /tg/: "Theatrical Gerrymandering".

>>52467020
Most of the time Sherlock Holmes solves his case because of his superhuman powers of observation, his vague contacts in the criminal underworld, or his comprehensive knowledge on esoteric subjects. 'Something the audience would have no way of knowing' is his normal modus operandi, and is acknowledged in-universe by himself, Watson, and through grumbling of official detectives whom he continually annoys with his superpowers.

>>52466371
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ9uIlPggSE

>>52467020

That's nu-Who.

Classic Dr Who, especially anything in black and white, is so much better. Drs 1 to 3 are god-tier, 4 was alright, then next few were meh, and then nu-Who is a whole lot of tryhard passive irony.

>>52468305
I hadn't really thought about that.
>Doesn't protect against "modern" blasters
>Doesn't protect against primitive ewok weapons

I guess it's wholly for style.

>>52466360

no way, it's one of the biggest sci-fi circlejerks there is. it's just so long-running and old that it has a constant viewerbase. kind of like the simpsons, where these days nothing's good but they're still pulling the numbers?

though that comparison lacks the point that the simpsons, at one point, was very, very good. so idk.

They're actually really good in the lore and only lose to plot armor characters for story progression, and also because triggered cucks need a "muh nazi" bad guy to hate.

>>52468335
Because star wars is retarded. Did you know that for the same price of every clone that the republic had the CIS could make 55 B1 battle droids or 33 B2 SBD or 8 droidekas?

>>52466608
Rogue One featured stormtroopers getting mowed down in mass while standing out in the middle of an open field while rebels were in cover. Rogue One continued the tradition of the OT in making Stormtroopers more of a joke than the last movie they were in.

>>52466242
>>52466371
> Automatic blasters with scopes
> have to run in front of enemy fire to get close enough to shoot
> still miss almost everything
And that is supposed to be the elite troopers. I can't even begin to imagine how the normal soldiers performed.

>>52469820

>mfw the only content that makes stormtroopers look appropriately fearsome are third-party or in small scenes of the original trilogy
>mfw all of that's gone and disney will never make them look cool again

"hurr hurr were the bad guys better stand out in the open and get kill"

>>52469820
>>52469843
>>52469849
It's even more of a shame because whoever did the choreography for the Death Troopers for the most part knew his shit.

They moved like actual operators, and when they fought on the beaches of Scarif they lay down in explosion craters and fired over the rim from cover. I don't remember how the two who died in the hallway fought, but I do remember that they were forced to poke out and fire down out of a big empty doorway; very little cover to take advantage of in the first place. The only time they did poorly was during the iconic "the Force is with me," moment, but I can forgive it because of how rad Chirrut was.

So clearly someone there knew roughly how these soldiers should fight; which means they fucked up the Stormtroopers either through negligence or on purpose.

>>52469910
Likely on purpose.

Disney isn't even allowing Stormtroopers to attend some conventions now because of "Nazi imagery" and people getting pissy over it. Portraying them in any light other than grossly incompetent will never happen, because inevitably Disney will receive massive backlash from .1% of the population yelling about how they're glorifying Nazis or white supremacy or something.

>>52469910
>I do remember that they were forced to poke out and fire down out of a big empty doorway; very little cover to take advantage of in the first place
You're correct. The only mistake those two did was not going prone to get the shots.

As for the rest, about laying down in explosion craters and firing over the rim from cover, it's not even OPERATORS OPERATING OPERATIONALLY stuff, it's basic logic.

>>52465946
I don't remember how well this was shown on screen, but in the (now non-canon) EU books the rule of thumb was that they'd protect against most shots well enough to keep the stormtroopers fighting after getting hit once.

High powered weaponry, direct hits to the center of the chest, etc would still kill them in one shot, but those were both difficult enough that they weren't something you could count on unless you constantly ran around with the equivalent of a high powered rifle loaded with AP ammo (which would be overkill against unarmored targets).

>>52469849
They were scary in episode 4 and the start of 5, in 4 we see them in two scenes:
1) They mow down 20+ rebels with like, 3 onscreen causalities.
2) The Death Star escape when we learn that they let the heroes escape on orders.

Then in episode 5 they manhandled echo base, before being shanked by plot armor in Bespin

And then Episode 6 and RO happened.

And RO is still far and away the better Disney Star Wars.

>>52469820
Rogue One is generally pretty shit, but I could have sworn that the troopers in it were generally more effective than in any of the other movies. I mean, they actually kill people and occasionally accomplish things. Only two members of the main cast die to something that isn't being killed by a storm trooper. Previous films had them missing piss-easy shots on stationary enemies with no cover and losing fights with stoneage midget bears.

>>52466225
>that spoiler
The implementation onscreen wasn't great, but the general idea (significant or repeated blind force trauma) is a decent way of dealing with people in armor. Theirs is pretty rigid, so it would protect against that pretty well, but it could be done (mainly by trying to damage their joints and knock their heads around to cause concussions).

>>52470084
>it's not even operator
I know, when I referenced them moving in an operator-like fashion I was referring to the film's prologue. When they walked they had a very good fluidity to their movements that struck me as similar to actual special forces. Not very blocky or jerky at all, as opposed to a lot of Stormtrooper movements.

The only fight where the STs did okay was the ambush on Jedha. Fighting against an ambush at point-blank range against guys dressed as the civilians around you who have cover superiority and are committing to grenade suicide rushes cannot be an easy task, and I feel like the Stormies did an okay job before being wiped out.

>>52469820
Keep in mind the troopers on the death star in ANH were ordered to let them go. That doesn't cover the rest of the original trilogy, though.

>>52470238
That's what he said though
>Rogue One continued the tradition of the OT in making Stormtroopers more of a joke than the last movie they were in.
Would make them scariest in 4.

>>52470238
They don't do as bad as people remember on Endor in ROTJ.

Besides the last-minute addition of Ewoks they were originally supposed to pound in the rebels' shit. Han was supposed to die and Leia was supposed to severely wounded.

What we get is Ewoks for toy sales and Leia with light injuries, but EU delves into it and explains that the Ewoks got annihilated and the Rebel ground forces were reduced to nothing by the time the Emperor bought it.

>>52469843
Stormtroopers stopped being elites when none of the audience could tell (or care) what the actual rank-and-file were supposed to be like.

Also, the 'actual' grunts might have faces, so viewers might have to think for a microsecond instead of brainlessly cheering the destruction of a dehumanized faceless other.

>>52470160
see, i could see that logic working if it were humans doing the spearings, or a similarly-sized alien species, but the Ewoks are not wookies, theyre two-foot-tall koalas

>>52470353
The fucked up thing is that stormtroopers are regular dudes. They're humans no different from the rebels, but R1 glorifies the slaughter of them while making it seem like the deaths of even a few rebels is some kind of humanitarian tragedy. It's kinda sick when you think about it.

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>>52470132
> They mow down 20+ rebels with like, 3 onscreen causalities
That's because those were from the remnants of clone 501st

> Then in episode 5 they manhandled echo base
Same as above

>>52470480
Not all of them.

By NH the 501st had more than half of its soldiers be actual humans due to the Clones' aging process causing them to die out by their early-mid 30s at the latest.

>>52466025

Actually, the Clone Trooper Armor Phase II DOES render direct blaster fire to the torso non-lethal as shown in TCW. You need to be hospitalized afterward, but it works. According to Rebels, Clone Trooper armor is junk in comparison. Why they didn't stick with Phase II and keep Clonetrooper Armor reserved for garrisons not intended to get into direct combat is anyones' guess.

>>52465946
1. Personal blaster shielding is expensive and unwieldy

2. While blaster fire is the popular weapon of choice in most of the galaxy, traditional weapons such as spears, bows, and shrapnel (read: bullets) are still employed in many areas. Stormtrooper armour is quite effective against those.

At least that's my personal theory.

>>52470623
Cost probably.

>What's the point of them wear any armor if they get killed even by a blaster pistol shot?

High casualty rate doesn't necessarily mean high mortality rate. Notice that Stormtroopers frequently make sounds after being shot, such as Wilhelm screaming while falling into a pit after being shot, or the ones in Rogue One who still groaned at being smacked around even after being shot several times at close range.

>>52466371
>>52466242

After playing much Men of War: Galaxy at War, I think these stormies would have done much better if they went prone and crawled to their objective.

>>52470736
Just like with real bulletproof vests: you get shot a few times you generally aren't getting back up.

You're bruised as fuck, might have some cracked ribs, had the wind knocked the fuck out of you, so as far as the next few minutes go forget it.

But you're still alive instead of a corpse with a fat hole blown clean through. And that's one hell of a difference.

>>52466058
To what end? Part of 4chan's strength is the flexibility of its boards. This thread could have fit easily on /tv/ or /co/ as well.

Adding new boards needs to be done with careful consideration, otherwise you wind up with hundreds of thousands of fractured communities. Look at eihght chan*, it has some staple boards but for the most part there's no chance for a board culture to develop because the communities spring up and die down so quickly.
*I don't know if you get banned for mentioning it here, I vaguely recall that being the case at one point.

Personal weapons are usually better than personal armour.

Most helmets, vests and other personal armour is for protecting you from blasts, shrapnel, falling rocks, shit like that. It might keep you from dieing if you get shot, but you're still going to fall down, break ribs and not be able to do much except curl up and cry like a bitch.

>>52466209
>Then I remembered that stormtroopers die from getting rocks dropped on them
No, you don't UNDERSTAND, those were ewoks, FUCKING EWOKS!

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>>52470459

Because the Stormtroopers are absolute morons that ruined the legacy of the Clone Troopers they replaced and are no small part of why the Empire unraveled due to their insistence on playing bully and folding whenever the metaphorical beehive they kicked bites back. Even if you like the Empire it's hard to root for the Stormies at times because they fail basic military maneuvers and are a shadow of what came before them.

Death Troopers are a nice nod to the ARCs that came before them, but they're far, far too few to save the Empire from their inferiors' incompetence. They're the equivalent of the guy in an FPS who has killed half the opposing team but still loses because everyone else on his side is acting pants on head retarded.

Daily reminder that in NuCanon, Stormtroopers are actually the basic fodder of the Empire and the Imperial Army doesn't exist. Star Wars: Rebels shows that Stormtroopers are recruited from local farm boys, and are basically just a bunch of inbred space hicks that go through sociopathic training that would realistically make them the worst fighting force ever (they are encouraged to backstab their squaddies and leave them for dead).

>>52470960
>>52471019
Yeah, nucanon is what fucked em up and turned them into shadows for reasons I don't think we'll ever understand. I try to stick to the expanded universe myself. Some of it is shit and some of it also portrays stormies incompetently but there are also plenty that show them in a very very competent light. One particular comic has a stormcommando captain that guns his way through hordes of rebel troops and later defeats Luke in hand-to-hand. It's pretty sick, and pretty sad that it's "not canon" now.

>>52470377
Technically we don't know how strong Ewoks are, but it's unlikely they're strong enough to make those scenes make sense.

Honestly I'm more concerned about how they cut those giant logs and moved them into place. They'd start running into issues with being light enough that entire groups of them would get lifted off their feet trying to do that.

>>52470032
Do you have an actual source on this? Last I checked the 501st was reasonably well-respected.

>>52465946
The armor is supposed to be more effective than it's shown to be on-screen.

>>52471137
>One particular comic has a stormcommando captain that guns his way through hordes of rebel troops and later defeats Luke in hand-to-hand. It's pretty sick, and pretty sad that it's "not canon" now.

Do you remember what comic that was? Sounds interesting.

>>52470960
It's not like clones were any better. They marched slowly at the enemy in fucking napoleonic infantry squares, and only at the end of the war learned that taking cover was a good idea.

Everybody in Star Wars is retarded.

>>52470768
That mod is unbalanced as fuck
> Stormtroopers have max weapon proficiency and pinpoint accuracy
> B1 battle droids need 7 shots at 100m to be destroyed
> B2s needs 50
> Battle droids carry bandages and can heal themselves
> clones get rekt everytime they enconter a CIS force of equal number

>>52465946
TFA actually seemed to focus on making the hits go to joints on rifle sized blasters and below. I liked that quirk. I think they did it for RO as well.

>>52466209
They CAN filter gas like CRBN if the troopers know to expect it and swap to the high value filters/rebreather/O2 cannister.

>>52469910
Rumor is the Death Troopers WERE former/ current military men. Form uh the Maldives or something.

>>52469367
it's cheap as balls and renders blaster hits only injuries rather than fatalities.

>>52469910
Because K2 needs his big death scene and if the Storm Troopers operate properly then K2 just dies in a hail of suppressive and direct blaster fire and the troopers win with minimal (if any) casualties.

Whether you agree with it or not, given that it's pretty clear they decided that drama had to come before common sense there they executed it... acceptably.

>>52470960
The problem with Stormtroopers is that their enemies have weapons grade plotonium.

>>52472160
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kreel

>>52466025
IIRC, the reason why bowcasters are illegal is because they have a solid slug encased in plasma, and the ablative armor stormtroopers wear is actually useless against kinetic force. All kinetic-based weapons are banned, for this reason.

But that's just me remembering.

>>52468305
Steel suits probably wouldn't protect you from those either, actually.

>>52474512
They're made of STONE. Brittle stone that is heavily calcified. To get penetrated by such rock formations you'd need to be wearing paper. There's a reason why they don't let you touch them in caves, because you'll break them.

>>52474523
And I'm sure falling on them from a great height while wearing armor made from a metal known for flexibility will feel GREAT.

Next you're going to say that maces were meant to be non-lethal.

>>52474590
A mace and a random rock is not quite the same.

>>52469910
http://webmshare.com/7Qz08

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>>52466242
>THE TWO FALLEN TROOPERS IN THE SECOND HALLWAY VANISH
>BECAUSE THEY PLAYED THE SAME HALLWAY CLIP A SECOND TIME

>>52474711

I thought their corpses just despawned to save processing power.

>>52470623
Rex barely survived a sniper round thanks to his armor but was still incapacitated. A few rare clone troopers, usually higher ranking ones, have proven themselves badass through surviving one or more shots before finally succumbing. Rex took a hit in Rebels but frankly they were up against rundown battledroids so the blaster shots don't appear to have been full powered. That would explain why Ezra took a hit later and showed no wound at all.

Yeah Stormtrooper armor is considered shit, same as their training, but then the Empire can probably outfit tens if not hundreds of times more troopers than the number of clones in the GAR for the same price. Fewer clones had much better gear, but then they make up for that with small numbers of specialists like Deathtroopers.

Then of course there's the favorite topic of Mando armor where Sabine survived a head and chest shot deflected back at her by Vader personally and survived. You'd think by now people would expect that extra layer of plot armor for main characters.

>>52468335

It did. Then Palpatine talked the Trade Federation into installed Windows 8 OS on all the droids because Sith fears the robots.

Fun fact: a protocol droid was the primary component in the destruction of Death Star 1 and Death Star 2.

>>52465946
I'm fairly sure current irl gear might beat out stormtrooper stuff.

> accuracy is clearly better
> range for small arms seems better
> modern tactical gear offers concealment
> stopping power roughly on par

I don't know. I'd bet a squad of modern day soldiers would have more than a fair shot against these guys.

>>52474791
Hahaha.
Hahahahahahahaha.
Hahahaha.
No.

>>52474860
> I don't have an actual reason as to why I disagree
> Despite the fact that these guys lost to fucking teddy bears in the last of the original trilogy
> I know, I'll laugh and deny to try and boost my super special awesome team that never wins!

>>52474762
No it didn't. The CIS mass produced B1 and B2 battle droids, which can't fucking shoot straight and consistently miss clones standing a mere ten meters away from them. And so do the Clones. Everybody in the Clone Wars was garbage.

>>52474791
>>52474860

Look at what the rebels are wearing in RO. Aside from wielding blasters, they probably ARE wearing what would be equivilent to IRL gear.

>>52474690
>nobody responding

>>52470331
Ewoks were also supposed to be woolies originally, so instead of fighting tiny bears they were supposed to be fighting an army of angry 8 foot tall bear gorillas

>>52473511

Stormtroopers themselves were played by marines at least a couple times, so it wouldn't be too surprising.

>>52474943
Even if that was the case, an IRL army would get rekt, just based off of the original trilogy's Stormtrooper accuracy. Surprise! They aren't terrible. At all.

Take a look at the following math paper one of my students submitted:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Jw13Zubhs19TOS5nM5KrGcN0shemFs_DyyVqYx9EtMU/edit?usp=sharing

>>52474523
>>52468305
Because some comic authors are idiot fuckheads who think Stormtroopers should die easily.

>>52475001
That might actually explain part of why they just walk into shit without taking cover. For ambushes at short range, I think SOP is to just walk and shoot into it because most people go "What the fuck is wrong with them?" and GTFO. Plot armor kinda negates that advantage. And so does a lack of squad level support weaponry.

>>52474690
Christ, that scene looks fucking horrible. Does Hollywood not realize that just because it's a 'heroic death scene' the character in question doesn't need to mow down dozens of enemies?

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>>52465946
This thread is pretty much for headcanon now, so my take:
Storm Trooper armor has *just* become obsolete as of A New Hope. For the twenty or so years between the prequels and the OT, the various iterations of the armor provided decent protection. Not quite "Walk through a hail of blaster fire unscathed", but more along the lines of giving you a good 60% chance of surviving an incapacitating shot.
By the time of A New Hope, advances/modifications to blaster technology have come through that can puncture ST armor like wet paper. It's been flooding the underworld, and the rebels have started buying that kind of gear en mass too.
This, combined with the Empire's general philosophy of quantity over quality, means that replacing Storm Trooper gear with something durable enough to withstand modern tech is a tall order: the Empire doesn't just have to engineer a new standard of protection that still provides troops with enough mobility to be useful, they also have to figure out a way to do it cheaply enough to supply billions, possibly trillions of troops. Small, elite units like the Death Troopers get some prototype gear, and the Dark Trooper project was intended to eventually solve the problem, but the Empire's logistics just never quite get up to speed before Endor.
Also, Palpatine was terrified of a coup, and so kept all the best equipment for elite, fanatically loyal personal guards while relying on numbers for his main military force. Even if the Storm Troopers revolted as a bloc, Palpatine would have likely been able to fight his way free with his personal guards and escape to a safe haven.

>>52475057
The Rebels aren't even heroes. You feel more sympathy for the Imperials. That's the best part.

>>52475077
Except it didn't as we see in EU or Disney pre-OT material, not to mention the guns used by the rebels are several years or even decades old.

>>52475013

To be fair, the Rebels were getting wrecked until Luke came along.

>>52472160
That's also from nucanon.

>>52475013
Holy shit, I hope they got an A+

>>52469750
>B1
Worthless.
>B2
Still a bit meh.
>8 fucking droidekas
Hold the fuck up.

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>>52465946
Always thought the Storm Trooper armor was more an environmental suit than anything else because Star Wars is a space setting. Like how are you going to board a ship that's lost its environmentals unless you're in a sealed suit?

I mean, even if the armor sucks, you'd still want it if your army is supposed to put boots on the ground regardless of the type of planet.

>>52475083
> You feel more sympathy for the Imperials.
If you're a fascist, sure. But most people don't feel much sympathy for an authoritarian state that murders billions of its own people just to make a statement.

>>52475213
They do seem to be able to casually walk around on the outside of space installations without trouble. Functionality in all environments would be pretty useful for the standard issue of an army charged with policing a literal galaxy.

>>52465946
It's mainly to protect against blaster shots which bounce of walls (which can be quite a danger in boarding actions) and things like being caught in the blast radius of a grenade. Also includes thermal sensors and the like (which is why the Stormtroopers were able to start firing while still inside the smoke when boarding the Tantive IV, as a result the closest rebel defenders were taken out before they could even see who was attacking them). Also provides environmental protection.

>>52466023
This person has a good point too. Same deal with real-world body armor, you can't just "ignore" the kinetic energy of a bullet, so you're likely to go down whether you're wearing armor or not - but if the armor is good enough to stop the bullet from penetrating, you'll be able to get up again afterwards.

>>52475217
>Noting feeling sympathy for the innocent soldiers who're just trying to do their job, but end up getting massacred by terrorists.

>>52475260
yes we all remember that fucking conversation from Clerks, thank you, you can move on.

>>52475249
At the beginning of the original movie after they clear the hall, you can see a few Stormtroopers are checking the knocked down guys when Vader walks in, so it's possible a lot of the guys who get shot in these movies survive, but it isn't obvious because most of the shootouts are running battles.

>>52466177
Because David Tennant is actually an amazing actor, and Tennant-era Who was about the time it got popular in America. Then came Matt Smith, who's quirky and attractive, so naturally all the tumblr girls jumped right on that

>>52468305
Because the main threat to the Galactic Empire is energy weapons, not slugthrowers. So Stormtrooper armor is designed primarily to protect against energy bolts. Steel armor would actually be a disadvantage against blaster bolts, because it has a much lower melting point than plastoid and you'd end up with molten steel fused to your skin every time you're shot, requiring major surgery even for flesh wounds.

>>52475260
> innocent soldiers
They're a military force guarding something that the Rebels need in order to save billions of lives. Sure, it would be better if they just laid down their arms and let the Rebels through, but that wasn't ever going to happen.

> terrorists
The Death Star was literally created to terrorize an entire galaxy.

>>52465946
Insulation, carrying supplies, sexy.

>>52470331
Also on Endor they weren't fighting in their element. Most planetary combat was focused either on open plains or near population centers, where they'd benefit from orbital and aerial scanning, air support, as well as possibly using expendable droids to search ahead for traps. On Endor those factors weren't in play - they weren't intending to conquer the Ewoks, so their forces were mostly just focused on defending the base and making sure no one got too close. The terrain made it difficult to use armored vehicles or air support, and they underestimated how well the Rebels and ewoks could use the terrain to make sneak attacks and draw them out of their safety zone to finish them off.

>>52466608
>Rogue One Shit Quality.webm
Some people REALLY hate Jyn beating up a group of troopers with a baton.

>>52475355
The Empire did nothing wrong.

>>52475355
The Death Star was a defensive weapon.

By your logic the United States and Soviet Union were pure evil monsters because they developed nuclear weapons.

The Empire was also very worried the Rebels would capture it for their own use, and some Rebels wanted to as far as EU goes.

The Empire has also never killed "billions" of its own people for no reason. Alderaan is the only truly large-scale act, and Alderaan was a planet that aided and sympathized with the Rebellion.

If you wanna think the Empire's evil cool but at least make better points.

>>52475484
It was the jump-the-shark moment of nucanon and one of the most inane scenes ever in a Star Wars film, up there with Jar Jar stepping in shit.

>>52471019
Yeah that's something that always bothered me about the old-canon original trilogy, where were the regular Imperial troops? All we see is the guys in white armor, SOME of whom are referred as stormtroopers, so we assume they all are. But what about the rest of the Imperial army? Do they just stay garrisoned on populous Imperial worlds to deter rebellion, while all expeditionary warfare is conducted by the Stormtroopers?

>>52475524
People have punched Stormtroopers out with their bare fists. And I don't mean Chewie.

>>52475511
>The Death Star was a defensive weapon.

The weapon that had it's first action be 'Blow up a planet that expressly does NOT have the rebel base on it and they know it'?

>>52474750
> A few rare clone troopers, usually higher ranking ones, have proven themselves badass through surviving one or more shots before finally succumbing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbBm8nJKr_Y
RIP Thorn

>>52475484
No. It's just that WebMBro fucks up the quality of the video.

>>52475511
To continue your analogy, that would require the US to nuke peaceful third parties because the mcdonalds in that nation werent making enough profit.Or have you forgotten a certain ex-planet? The peaceful one, with expressly no weaponry or rebels?

>>52475553
I think Commander Keeli lasted past a few hits, but Ima-Gun Di lasted a bit longer still.

>>52475511
>The Empire was also very worried the Rebels would capture it for their own use, and some Rebels wanted to as far as EU goes.
There's basically no way the Rebels could have afforded to build it, unless MAYBE by the time of ROTJ, and that's if they didn't try waging an actual war on the Empire at the same time.

>>52475511
> Alderaan is the only truly large-scale act
The Empire has done stuff like base delta zero. Alderaan was just the tipping point for a lot of people because culturally it was one of the most important core worlds, it had been a key part of the old republic, and it was well known for being completely nonthreatening. Genocide was an integral part of the Empire's strategy for maintaining control and had been for many years even prior to the destruction of Alderaan.

>>52466242
You know, the EP IV Stormtroopers were aware they planted a homing beacon on the Falcon thus it's okay to miss & let Luke & company escape. Why here?

>>52475260
> innocent soldiers who're just trying to do their job

>>52475511
> Alderaan was a planet that aided and sympathized with the Rebellion.

So the soldiers protecting the Death Star plans are innocent, but the population of Alderaan isn't because some of them sympathized with the rebellion?

>>52475260
Yeah, pretty sure the moral high ground is run through septic tank when your heroic solders blew up a planet killing billions and depriving the rest of the galaxy of an insurmountable resource of commerce and trade.

Fuck you.

>>52475511
Are you just trying to get a rise out of people or are you genuinely this stupid?

>>52475681
I never said they're not.

>>52475685
They shouldn't have supported the Rebellion. Alderaan's aid might've led to thousands of Imperial deaths.

>>52475652
No, it isn't. They're oppressive, but "genocide" is not their modus operandi.

>>52475606
They were mainly worried they'd try to capture it.

>>52475552
No, Alderaan as far as the Expanded Universe goes had very powerful defenses and a plethora of Rebel supporters, as well as most if not all of its government.

>>52475544
Equally inane and idiotic content you can ignore. Stormtroopers would sensibly be able to absolutely floor any regular Joe or Jyn in hand to hand combat.

>>52475511
This sounds like something I've heard Family Guy Blue Harvest say about Alderaan having WMDs.

>>52475733
This is /tg/. There are genuinely people here who believe that the Empire was somehow a worthwhile and desirable state to live in.

>>52475733
Wanna give me the rundown on why it's stupid or are you just gonna throw ad hominems around?

>>52475766
Stormtrooper training sucks. Even for top of their class ISB agents according to Thrawn. Oh they can fight, but their routine is both limited and predictable.

>>52475784

I fail to see what is wrong with this

>>52475804

Do you mean Thrawn in nucanon or Thrawn in old canon?

Stormtrooper training DID suck following Endor but before that they were the best soldiers in the galaxy. There are even very liberal, very pro-rebel authors who've written about new comics showing competent Stormtroopers as being the way it should be. Hell, it's how it is in the RPG. A Stormtrooper is worth about 5 Rebel troopers. That's the reality of the GCW.

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>>52475766
> They're oppressive, but "genocide" is not their modus operandi.
No, it was an official part of Imperial military doctrine that they committed on multiple occasions.

>>52475766
>They shouldn't have supported the Rebellion. Alderaan's aid might've led to thousands of Imperial deaths.

Destroying a galactic resource is ok because people I don't like live there. Suck a dick, you don't shit where you eat.

>>52475766
> They shouldn't have supported the Rebellion. Alderaan's aid might've led to thousands of Imperial deaths.
Meanwhile, Alderaan's destruction definitely led to billions of Imperial deaths.

>>52475825
The only canon that counts.

>>52475830
That's what you fucking get for supporting the Rebellion.

"Yeah, I shot you in the face, but what the fuck? Why are you trying to kill me? You monster!"

The Empire's pro-Imperial citizens have it great, especially humans.

>>52475861
Hell, the only canon that ever counted. The EU was never real canon in the same way the movies were.

I read in an encyclopedia that the armor can't deflect direct hits from a blaster but scrapes leave the wearer unharmed.

>>52475863
> The Empire's pro-Imperial citizens have it great, especially humans.
There were pro-Imperial citizens on Alderaan. They didn't have it great.

>>52475766

>They shouldn't have supported the Rebellion. Alderaan's aid might've led to thousands of Imperial deaths.

But Alderaan wasn't supporting the Rebellion enough to have bases on it. There was a LOT of innocent civilians.

>Equally inane and idiotic content you can ignore. Stormtroopers would sensibly be able to absolutely floor any regular Joe or Jyn in hand to hand combat.

You mean like how they beat the crap out of the teddy bears with spears?

>>52475217
>>52475355
>>52475552
>>52475590
>>52475652
>>52475681
>>52475733
>>52475784
>>52475830
>>52475848
>>52475860

I feel like every time someone comes on a Star Wars thread and says "I like the Empire" an alarm goes off in a bunker of hyper-liberal shitposters and trolls who jump into aciton and come in to post retarded comments to bait the Empire fanboys to get just as mad.

Literally "im just pretending to be retarded."

>>52475899

He didn't say 'I like the empire'. He was talking about the death star being a defensive weapon.

The space station that is literally designed to blow up planets is somehow defensive.

>>52475863
> "The Empire doesn't commit genocide!"
> Points out that the Empire has an official code for committing genocide that they have used.
> "Well that's what you get for talking shit about the Empire!"

Also, the issue isn't that the Empire kills rebels. The issue is that the Empire kills billions of civilians without bothering to even try to sort out who is a rebel and who is an innocent bystander. They just blew up the whole damn planet and killed everyone, rebel and loyalist alike, because they wanted to scare people.

>>52475217
>not being a fascist
What are you, a nerd?

>>52475825
You have a very strange view of the GCW. It was nothing near on the scale of the Clone Wars. Stormtrooper training was always all over the place. You could get some decent troopers like the guys who stormed the Tantive IV or you'd get people who couldn't shoot straight if their life depended on them, which it often did. Do you have any idea why? Because that's realistically what you'd get with Stormtroopers garrisoned on every world of the Empire. Most of them are pretty much the local equivalent of beat cops. They deal mostly with drunks at the local cantina, maybe a smuggler if they get lucky.

The problem, anon, is they all wear the same uniform, regardless of their skill level. From the most badass to the least competent. They're the face of the Empire so the local boys on some Outer Rim shithole benefit from the larger threat of the Empire. That's it. The Empire was performing a huge land grab after the Clone Wars trying to take and occupy as much territory as possible. For that they needed warm bodies who could fit in armor and pull triggers. That's it. They aren't all super badass elite operator commandos, nor should they be. Nor would it be practical for them to be on par with Clone Troopers. The sheer bulk of the Stormtrooper Corps are just schmucks who either signed up or were drafted. Most of them have probably never seen a real bounty hunter let alone an actual rebel.

>>52475766
>They were mainly worried they'd try to capture it.
Then they shouldn't have built it in the first place. Then they wouldn't have to worry about any super-weapons falling into the wrong hands, and the Imperial fleet by itself is already capable of blasting any world into submission, just in a less flashy way.

>>52475590
Alderaan was funding and equipping Rebels

>>52475928
Best defense is a good offense :^)

>>52476032
Yeah, don't build nukes. Fuck, don't build bombs, planes, jets, satellite defense systems, guns, bullets. Actually, don't build knives or clubs either. While we're at it, restrain everyone's hands from punching. Weapons of war are all evil and if you build them under any circumstance you are an evil fascist bastard.

>>52475766
> They were mainly worried they'd try to capture it.

Where is this ever mentioned? The Empire worried about the rebels CAPTURING the Death Star? The idea is absurd, it wasn't until well after the destruction of the second Death Star that the rebels were even capable of capturing a super star destroyer, let alone something like the Death Star. How would they even begin to secure something of that size, let alone crew it? An SSD was already basically a city that took a bare minimum of tens of thousands to operate it. The Death Star was the size of a freaking moon and had a crew many times that number.

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>>52476094

>>52475928
It's Deterrence.

>>52476117

So you deter people by blowing up yourself?

I see they are the successor to Belka.

>>52476094
No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the Death Star didn't give the Empire any ability it didn't have before - it just let them destroy planets IN ONE SHOT, which was mainly a benefit for propaganda/intimidation value, rather than serving any practical purpose. If they were worried about it falling into rebel hands, they could have just not built it, there's no way the Rebellion could afford to build something like that themselves.

>>52476112
From the thumbnail it looked like your head exploded. I guess it works either way.

>>52476131
Please don't tell me you're this retarded. It's literally the same theory behind nuclear weapons.

>>52476110
It wouldn't take much to pilot it just into hyperspace and careen it into an Imperial planet. A hundred thousand crew to man it properly, a few dozen to kamikaze it into an Imperial planet, costing them the Death Star in the process. It was a legitimate fear.

>>52476075
The entire planet was? All 2+ billion people that the Empire killed? So if some people in your town commit a crime, the proper response from the government is to destroy the entire town and kill everyone in it?

>>52476163

Except America didn't drop a nuke on New York to demonstrate how powerful it's nukes are.

The Empire blew up one of it's OWN core worlds, after confirming conclusively that the rebel base was not on that planet.

>>52476163
Not him, but please point me to any theory out there that talks about using nuclear weapons in asymmetric conflicts. Anyone in the world.

>>52476168
You still haven't said where this was actually stated. And judging by your previous claim that the Empire didn't commit genocide despite base delta zero being a thing, I'm thinking that you just made that up.

>>52476153
Almost like US already could destroy Japanese cities with firebombing, but nukes were just so much scarier

>>52476185
But it did drop two on Japan.

>>52476204
Using terror as a weapon has always been a tactic for fighting asymmetrical conflicts. This shit goes way back.

>>52476175
Works as a "don't do this shit" deterrent

>>52476236

>But it did drop two on Japan.

Japan wasn't part of their own country. The empire didn't blow up the planet of a foreign power it was at war with, it blew up it's own citizens.

>>52476243

Except, seeing as the rebellion proceeded to blow it up and defeat the empire...it really didn't.

>>52476185
You're actually right, Alderaan didn't have a rebel base.

It was a rebel fortress. Very powerful defenses, most of its population made up of rebel supporters or anti-Empire aliens, and it was providing supplies and training and safe harbor to rebel forces. Most of its government supported the Rebellion due to two of its leading nobility also being leaders of the Rebel Alliance.

Alderaan was not a rebel base. It was a prime strategic target, and while it's unfortunate that many innocents died, hundreds of thousands of lives would be lost laying siege to it. According to the Expanded Universe, it had a professional militia and among the strongest defense systems in the galaxy. To save the lives of Imperial servicemen, the Empire sacrificed the lives of Rebels.

Completely, 100% justifiable.

>>52476168
But this isn't even about what it would take to operate it - just capturing and taking control of it would be virtually impossible. And yeah doing a hyperspace collision with a planet would do a lot of damage, but hyperspacing into a planet with a capital ship would do plenty enough damage, why bother with the thousands of casualities you're going to take just to gain control of the deathstar.

>>52476163
No, the theory behind nuclear deterrent is that if you blow us up then we'll blow you up too and thus no one wins, so lets not do that. That's very different from blowing up your own people just to scare others when no one else has a nuke equivalent or really anything even remotely close.

>>52476260
Japan is at war with America, so America blows up two Japanese cities with nukes. The Empire is at war with the Rebels, so it blows up a rebel-aligned planet. This shit isn't fucking difficult, anon.

>>52476243
Actually the Death Star would probably drive people to more rebellion, albeit in more subtle ways. After all. if loyalty to the Imperial government is so worthless that even being on the same planet as alleged rebels (not the same city, or even the same continent, but the same planet) puts you at risk of being exterminated, you don't really have anything else to lose. As long as the Death Star exists, every single loyal Imperial citizen could end up wiped out as collateral anyway.

>>52476236
>Using terror as a weapon has always been a tactic for fighting asymmetrical conflicts.
Really? Show me some examples. Because it's actually not part of any counterinsurgency doctrine I'm aware of, which is more focused on actually providing security on the street to street level.

>This shit goes way back.
Then it shouldn't be hard to find an example would it?

>>52475346
I will never understand how Matt Smith became a sex icon. He looks like a fucked up frankenstein

>>52476243
It didn't work because it broke one of the key rules of deterrence. You need to show people that you're only going to do the bad thing that you're using as a deterrent if they do the bad thing that you are trying to deter. By blowing up an entire planet of people, killing rebel and loyalist alike, they showed the galaxy that it didn't matter if you kept your head down and stayed out of trouble, the Empire might just kill you anyway. At that point, deterrence breaks down because people realize that it doesn't matter if they stay loyal or rebel, they might die either way, so why not rebel?
You just removed the incentive to stay loyal, namely survival, by demonstrating that loyalty is no guarantee of survival.

>>52476286
No, that's wrong. What you're describing is the theory behind Mutually Assured Destruction. Deterrence theory is more simply, 'if you attack us we'll destroy your entire fucking country.' Essentially, it's making the cost of attacking you far greater than any potential benefit.

>>52476287

Except that planet was an Imperial World too, with imperials living on it.

To directly quote A New Hope:

> No! Alderaan is peaceful. We have no weapons. You can't possibly...

It was then blown up anyway because:

>You're far too trusting. Dantooine is too remote to make an effective demonstration. But don't worry. We will deal with your Rebel friends soon enough.

>>52475240
Also their adaptation to tattooine seems to be an orange shoulder pad, while they do just fine on Hoth.

Is Stormtrooper armor the comfiest in the galaxy?

>>52476304
This shit goes back to Roman times. Fucking Gauls decide to rise up, so the Romans send a message by massacring several of their villages. This sort of shit happened all the time. Medieval Europeans did it, the Chinese did it, the Japanese did it, the Europeans did it during colonialism, it happened in WW1, it happened in WW2, the Soviets did it in Afghanistan, the US did it in Vietnam, etc.

>>52476304
>Because it's actually not part of any counterinsurgency doctrine I'm aware of
It's not a part of US doctrine because the US is constantly retrained by the left whining about rules of engagement and crying over every single terrorist that dies. Actual, effective counterinsurgency doctrine requires the threat of overwhelming force to pacify the population.

I liked the one random stormtrooper who beat the shit out of Finn in TFA. Just a single, particularly gung-ho mook. Adding any sort of backstory or second appearance to that guy would just ruin the effect.

>>52476389

>This shit goes back to Roman times. Fucking Gauls decide to rise up, so the Romans send a message by massacring several of their villages.

The Romans, however, didn't respond to enemy forced by slaughtering a roman town and going 'We'll do that to actual enemies if you keep going'

>>52476390
>left whining about rules of engagement and crying over every single terrorist that dies
But we're not talking about dead terrorists, we're talking about collateral damage. If someone comes home to find their parents were accidentally killed by an army trying to take out a terrorist (who actually fled the country a week before), they're more likely than not to see that army as their enemy. There's a pragmatic benefit to minimizing collateral damage, it's not just about "muh feels".

>>52466025
Hell, Ewoks were killing them by slowly throwing stones on Endor. Their armor's always been shit.

>>52476340
Showing that you'll kill the entire population of the whole planet doesn't make the cost of attacking greater than the benefit. It shows that you're a genocidal maniac who will kill everyone, including people who have done nothing wrong. That means ever single person who perviously might have been hesitant to take up arms is now more motivated to fight, because while they might die if they fight, you've shown that you're still going to kill them even if they do nothing. It makes the potential cost of doing nothing greater than the cost of attacking.

>>52476390
False, actual effective counterinsurgency requires eliminating all possible sources of threats. This means we must ensure the terrorists, their families & all their countrymen are dead. There is no such thing as innocent. To kill billions of "innocents" is a small sacrifice in killing a single terrorist.

>>52476424
You're completely missing the point. Plenty of countries massacre their own citizens during civil wars or to put down rebellions. Just look at Syria or the American Civil War.

>>52476389
> the Soviets did it in Afghanistan, the US did it in Vietnam
You seem to have forgotten the outcome of those wars.

>>52476390
Right, because that leads to permanent stability in the region and not increasing tensions and resistance.

So edgy

>>52476390
The United States is the most right wing country in the world that isn't officially run as a dictatorship or a theocracy. Every time I see one of you stupid Americans bitching about your country actually being controlled by liberal values on the internet I just laugh at how hilariously out of touch you are.

>>52476464
You wanted proof it happened? I provided it. Furthermore, there's plenty of examples where it was successful in achieving the desired outcome.

>>52476389

> Fucking Gauls decide to rise up, so the Romans send a message by massacring several of their villages. This sort of shit happened all the time. Medieval Europeans did it, the Chinese did it, the Japanese did it, the Europeans did it during colonialism, it happened in WW1, it happened in WW2,

None of these are insurgency and counterinsurgency. You do realize that, right? That there's a difference between conventional and asymmetric warfare?

>the Soviets did it in Afghanistan, the US did it in Vietnam, etc.

They also both flailed around ineffectively and LOST their respective wars.

>>52476390

> Actual, effective counterinsurgency doctrine requires the threat of overwhelming force to pacify the population

You might want to look up some counterinsurgency doctrine too. There's a reason you had no progress from regimes like the Nazis in Yugoslavia or the Soviets in Afghanistan, and it certainly wasn't because they felt restrained about using force.

>>52476163
How many countries developed nuclear weapons just to deploy on their own cities?

>>52476504
Stop being retarded.

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>>52476504

Belka.

>>52476503
An insurgency isn't the only form of asymmetric warfare. Besides, Gaul was under Roman control and the Gauls decided to rise up against that. What do you call that if not a Rebellion?

>>52476354
>leia lies repeatedly to the imperials
>thinking she's telling the truth

>>52476516

Well, he's not wrong. Alderaan has been a core world for hundreds of years at that point. It was unquestionably an imperial world.

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>>52476516

>>52476478
And yet you're the ones stuck in a sharia cage, and we're not. That's what liberal values have gotten you. Mudslimes gunning people down in the streets, running them over with trucks, raping and looting with impunity. Thanks, but we'll pass.

>>52476541

What proof is there that she was lying? They expressly said they were not blowing it up because it was an actual rebel target but because it was a visible one.

>>52476447
Wrong, because then YOU become the new terrorists. It might seem to work when YOU'RE the dictator and all you care is making your country "safe" from rebel uprising, but to the average person living in town, an army that shows up and kills a bunch of innocents is no better than the terrorists.

>>52476537
>An insurgency isn't the only form of asymmetric warfare.

It pretty much is, unless you want to draw extremely narrow lines between things like "Terrorists" and "insurgents"; in every case I'm familiar with though, it pits the regular forces of a nation-state against irregular forces.

>Besides, Gaul was under Roman control and the Gauls decided to rise up against that.

No, it was a series of mostly autonomous tribes, most allied or tributary to Rome, fighting each other and eventually fighting the Romans.

> What do you call that if not a Rebellion?

I'd call it a war, and the implication that insurgencies and rebellions are the same thing is idiotic.

>>52476545
No, it had been a core world for nearly four thousand years. It would be like the Catholic Church deciding to nuke Rome, only add another two thousand years on top of that.

>>52476556
>raping and looting with impunity.
Do Americans actually believe Europe has turned into some sort of failed state warzone?

>>52476592

My bad. I didn't look up exactly how long.

But yeah, the point stands about it being unquestionably a core world.

>>52476597
> hasn't heard of the New Years attacks in Cologne

>>52476587
Well, you'd be wrong the anon.

>>52476556
If you want to believe that then do, but then don't also say you're being held back by too much liberalism. Are they in control of your country or are they not? Make up your mind stupid.

>>52476597
It's just bait man.

>>52476615
Great rebuttal there anon. You've truly perfected your argumentative technique by cutting out all the dross in your previous posts.

>>52476592
You mean like Russia intentionally burning down their own capital?

>>52476638
There's not much more to say. You clearly don't know what you're talking about, and it's not even worth the effort to correct you.

>>52476576
Wrong. Bluepilled sheepie like you don't know the proper way to deal with things. There's a threat? Kill them. They're bacteria. If they survive, they become stronger.

There is no such thing as "innocent". Had this government not been run by sheepies, we'd have laws punishing relatives too. If you murder, your family shares your sentence. Police should be allowed to fire on sight. It'll keep their skills sharp too.

One of these days you'll find that killing anything & everything is the only way. Stinking living shitheads will always commit crimes & terrorize.

>>52476650
>>52476638
Also, why bother even responding with anything substantive if you're just going to keep moving the goalposts each time you post.

>>52476185
Alderaan wasn't a rebel base, it was one of the seats of the rebellion. When Vader captured Leia he knew it for a fact at that point. As far as he and the Empire were concerned, if Alderaan's government was in on the rebellion, the entire planet was. Destroying Alderaan was to send a message - if you piss off the Emperor, you will die.

>>52476672
Because people like you breathe. I tell you we need to kill everyone, you still talk about sparing people.

>>52476685

>As far as he and the Empire were concerned, if Alderaan's government was in on the rebellion, the entire planet was.

Literally the entire planet. It's a PLANET. That's like america blowing up earth because ISIS is on it.

>>52476650

>You clearly don't know what you're talking about, and it's not even worth the effort to correct you.

Pot, meet kettle. In the meantime, have some reading material to go through. I'll keep it simple, in light of your sharply limited abilities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallic_Wars

http://www.terrorism-research.com/insurgency/

If you want to move up on the investment and difficulty scale, I'd recommend this.

https://www.amazon.com/Learning-Eat-Soup-Knife-Counterinsurgency/dp/0226567702

https://www.amazon.com/Counterinsurgency-Modern-Warfare-Companion-Marston/dp/1849081646/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1491023402&sr=1-1&keywords=counterinsurgency+in+modern+warfare

http://ssi.armywarcollege.edu/pubs/parameters/articles/09autumn/gentile.pdf

http://globalsecuritystudies.com/Young%20Insurgency%20FINAL.pdf

>>52476717
Star Wars operates on just a slightly larger level than we do anon. Alderaan was one of many, MANY planets in a galaxy of literally thousands of them. On the scale the series deals with it's nothing to the Empire.

>>52476672
Rebelfags like these will never learn, and that's what they are, Rebelfags.

Everything the Empire ever does is unquestionably evil and inexcusable and any argument at all is immediately wrong because fascism.

>>52476652

>If you murder, your family shares your sentence. Police should be allowed to fire on sight. It'll keep their skills sharp too.

And if the cop shoots someone who was conclusively not doing anything illegal? Should the cop and his family all be executed?

>>52476717
And? It'd remove the threat.

>>52476717
America blowing up the earth if Asia, Africa, Europe, Antarctica, South America, and North America were under the control of ISIS.

The number of loyalists on Alderaan compared to sympathizers actively aiding the Rebellion and fighting the Empire was tiny.

>>52476672

>Also, why bother even responding with anything substantive if you're just going to keep moving the goalposts each time you post.

Where have I moved the goalposts once? You still have yet to show me a counterinsurgency doctrine employed anywhere in the world which advocates the use of nuclear weapons, which is what I've asked for here

>>52476204

You then, were the one who moved goalposts, first by saying "using terror as a weapon">>52476236, and then by talking about a bunch of conventional conflicts.>>52476389

>>52476761

>The number of loyalists on Alderaan compared to sympathizers actively aiding the Rebellion and fighting the Empire was tiny.

Citation required.

>>52476749
If they're a cop, they should be practically programed machines. Individuality & emotions hinder good judgement. That way we can grant exceptions without fear of exploitive people.

>>52476745

Well, they DID remove the senate entirely. The civilian population no longer had a legal method to oppose the government.

>>52476749
Look at how they've gone from arguing that deterrence isn't a thing, to arguing that terror was never used as a weapon, to arguing that no government has ever intentionally murdered its own citizens.

>>52476781

You know, they tried that long ago. The Jannisaries.

They ended up basically running the country before long.

>>52476768
>You still have yet to show me a counterinsurgency doctrine employed anywhere in the world which advocates the use of nuclear weapons
This is exactly why we still have threats. We don't wipe them out, they multiply. Criminals, terrorists, foreign nations who refuse to submit, they should end up the same.

>>52476798
Did they successfully kill every source of threat? Honestly, to kill a single gang member by bombing their neighboorhood is a good trade. Just kill them already.

>>52475899
It's fucking official canon in-universe that the Empire is evil and awful. In fact, the Force, for all intents and purposes a gestalt fucking god, considers the Empire evil as a well of dark side energy. You're like the kind of retard who says their Chaotic Evil character in DND isn't actually evil even though there is zero moral ambiguity in-universe because of divine nature.

>>52476803
>This is exactly why we still have threats. We don't wipe them out, they multiply. Criminals, terrorists, foreign nations who refuse to submit, they should end up the same.

And yet the "brute force" method doesn't exactly have a good track record. Which of the many resistance movements opposing it did the Nazis actually put down? Why were the Soviets unable to defeat the Afghans? Or the KMT unable to beat the Chi-Coms?

>>52476814

...but basically every single neighbourhood has a gang member or other criminal in it. Doing that you'd have no neighbourhoods before long.

>>52476803
Do you actually understand the chemical properties of nuclear weaponry and the long term effects of detonating them? We don't throw nukes around willy-nilly because that shit actively makes the entire planet less habitable with every detonation.

>>52476768
Because China has never had a civil war before, right? Because Japan has never had a civil war before, right? Because Vietnam and Afghanistan weren't asymmetrical wars, right? Because Europe has never had civil wars before, right? Because none of those countries have ever had rebellions before, right?

Yeah, I'm TOTALLY the one moving the goalposts here. Fucking retard.

>>52476838

>Because Vietnam and Afghanistan weren't asymmetrical wars, right?

Despite engaging in very heavyhanded tactics, the soviets LOST Afganistan.

>>52476838
>Because China has never had a civil war before, right? Because Japan has never had a civil war before, right?

Irrelevant to the discussion, not asymmetric wars.

>Because Vietnam and Afghanistan weren't asymmetrical wars, right?

They were. YOu know what? Nukes didn't fly.

>Because Europe has never had civil wars before, right? Because none of those countries have ever had rebellions before, right?

REBELLIONS ARE NOT NECESSARILY INSURGENCIES YOU ABSOLUTE FUCKING IDIOT.

>Yeah, I'm TOTALLY the one moving the goalposts here. Fucking retard.

Yes, you are. You're also using terms of art which your clearly don't understand. The American revolution was a rebellion of American colonists agianst British rule. It was not an insurgency, you had militias and eventually a continental army employing conventional tactics against a conventional army in a conventional manner and actually taking and holding ground. Something like Afghanistan was an insurgency. The Afghans did not attempt to meet the Soviet forces directly, they did not attempt to actually hold territory when the Soviets occupied it, and their strategy was based not around eviction, but around eroding the Soviet will to continue the conflict further.

Please kill yourself. It would do the gene pool a massive favor.

>>52476866
And there are plenty more instances in which thorough tactics won, meanwhile liberals have yet to demonstrate a single instance of softness winning a war.

>>52476829
Putting shit in only black and white is fucking boring and idiotic. For a fiction like Star Wars where politics and ideas are huge, it's only done if your brain would hurt otherwise from trying to think of the goods and evils of both sides.

And if we're going off the PT, the Force is biological and not divine. If we're going off the Vong, it's biological and not divine. This isn't D&D. There is no "Lawful Good" and "Chaotic Evil".

>>52476889

When has it won? The number of times war went to genocide is severely limited.

>>52476900
The US conquering its way to the west coast.

>>52476866
Nice cherrypicking.

>>52476885
>Irrelevant to the discussion, not asymmetric wars.
The war between the Empire and the Rebel Alliance IS a civil war you fucking idiot.
>They were. YOu know what? Nukes didn't fly.
Moving goalposts again.
>REBELLIONS ARE NOT NECESSARILY INSURGENCIES YOU ABSOLUTE FUCKING IDIOT.
The Rebel Alliance is called the Rebel Alliance because they are a FUCKING REBELLION. How is it possible for you to be this stupid?

Nice to see you still moving those goalposts though. Shame you can't stay on topic.

>>52476891
Too bad both of those are fanfiction

>>52476889

The War of 1812 ended with white peace. Neither side gained or lost ground due to the peace negotiations.

Canada, England and America have never had a war against each other since then.

>>52465946
Uniforms have many uses aside from just armor. Their helmets are spooky as shit, their armor provides them anonymity and solidarity, the image of a cohesive force. Plus it probably protects against the elements quite well and has lots of useful tech built into it, extremely useful for a force that could be deployed anywhere in the galaxy, be it deserts or ice planets.

And even if it doesn't protect against lasers, it probably does decent against knives, clubs and fists. And those are the first weapons of any rebellion. Don't think of Stormtroopers as only ever fighting rebels with blasters. You also have to consider them as an occupying force in predominately civilian territories on many different planets. It would work just fine as riot gear against "rebels", and that's probably the level of conflict MOST of them are actually dealing with across the galaxy, unlike the comparatively few who actually have to engage in the full scale war against "THE Rebels"

>>52476831
That's because they were weak & unwilling to punish anyone. They fed themselves lies about "innocence".
>>52476834
Only if this shitty "mercy" is there. Every family should be willing to give up their members & watch them be killed for their own sake.
>>52476837
Less inhabitable is the existence of threats. Long term effects of threats are far worse. Better kill them before they do worse.

Bunch of sheepie. You like those blue pills you swallowed? Threat = dead. Oppose = dispose. Just kill them all.

>>52477088

>Only if this shitty "mercy" is there. Every family should be willing to give up their members & watch them be killed for their own sake.

That wouldn't help, judging by >>52476652

>There is no such thing as "innocent". Had this government not been run by sheepies, we'd have laws punishing relatives too. If you murder, your family shares your sentence.

So at the point you find out you have a criminal relative...everyone you are related to is already a dead person walking. There is no reason for a person to want to NOT help hide the crime.

>>52477088
>Bunch of sheepie. You like those blue pills you swallowed? Threat = dead. Oppose = dispose. Just kill them all.

And what happens when your country encounters another country of roughly comparable power? They have no reason to hold back from trying to genocide you if they know you won't stop until you've genocided them.

>>52477114
Exactly. They're family thus one criminal means all criminals. This will pollute the entire country. Just nuke them all & we'll be happy.

>>52477088
You really don't understand anything about nuclear weapons other than "really big boom", do you? The human species has survived its entire history burdened with wars and criminals and all kinds of threats. Sustained nuclear detonation would literally damage the global environment to the point the human race could not sustain itself and would go extinct.

So did you become this deeply stupid by choice or were you born a mental defective?

>>52475863
>Imperial soldiers are just innocent guys getting killed by terrorists
>Blowing up an entire planet full of nothing but civilians
>"But some people in their government support our enemies"

Dude the fucking double think. It's an entire planet of innocent people with maybe a couple key figures that oppose you. That would be like if during WW2, in order to kill the nazis, America nuked literally all of Europe, the entire continent, into a smooth unending field of glass.

You have zero legs to stand on here. I'd accept the idea that "The Dark Side", something that literally embodies all negative and evil energy in the galaxy, isn't objectively evil before you convince me that the Empire isn't objectively evil.

>>52477126
The more redpilled side wins. The side who realize more that killing = good & thus can do anything for victory will win.

I see that /tg/ is unwilling to have a decent discussion. I'm returning to /pol/

>>52477127

And how far does 'Family' extend? As that's a rather massive web that can go all over the country.

>>52477146
I've been redpilled sheepie.

>>52477152

And what happens if both sides are heavily redpilled? You'll both tear each other up until neither of you are standing.

>>52477168
>The more redpilled side
Sheepie too scardy to kill.

>>52476891
Too bad for you, Star Wars is morally black and white and not shades of grey.

>>52477152
Ah, the classic strategy of the self-proclaimed red pilled. Once people start calling bullshit on the fact your argument is literally disproven by basic physical science, you run away and call names.

Well good riddence, you bloody subhuman. Maybe if you Americans weren't so diluted with darkie blood you could formulate a decent argument.

>>52476611
I've heard of them, and from what I've heard they're not remotely close to Europe being a failed state.

>>52475899
>Disagreeing with slaughtering a planet full of innocents just to intimidate a single political figure makes you hyper liberal

>Implying this bait could catch anything

If you link more than 4 posts it becomes way too obvious that it's bait, literally nobody on 4chan does that unless they're just trying to start shit. Back in my day we were more subtler, trolling used to be a art you know.

>>52477181

I'm asking what happens if both are equally redpilled.

>>52476652
So why haven't you nuked yourself yet?

>>52477184
>Darkie
Purebred here. You think I haven't implied we annihilate them too? As mentioned, one criminal = all criminal. It's bluepilled sheepie like you who refuse to kill & hinder us. I think you're a Mudslime supporter.

>>52476781
A machine cannot make good decisions if given false information. How are you going to deal with the fact that at some point, the police are going to get false information and end up killing innocents? Should the non-indoctrinated humans that the errors are traced to be executed dfor that?

>>52477088
>Only if this shitty "mercy" is there. Every family should be willing to give up their members & watch them be killed for their own sake.
So then what do they get out of it? You'd have less criminals, but you'd also have to deal with the constant danger of everyone you care about dying because "oops I missed". I don't think that's really a trade in the average person's favor.

>>52477152
>more that killing = good & thus can do anything for victory will win.
But then what is the point of winning? Remember, killing the enemy isn't a goal in itself, the goal is to protect your country, your property, your people. If you end up killing them all in the process of taking out the enemy, what's the point? You've lost everything you were fighting to protect.

>>52477217
Okay darkie, if your so smart, maybe you can tell me what the plan is to deal with the long term nuclear fallout of your constant nuke barrage. I know it's hard to believe your American babies could get any uglier or mentally defective, but once the radioactive matter starts getting carried by the jetstreams and ocean currents it can do quite a number.

>>52477148
>imperial soldiers are evil because alderaan was blown up
>the decision of a lone imperial moff with a desire to take over the empire means every imperial soldier is evil and genocidal

>>52477273
That "lone imperial moff" was basically the third most powerful and respected person in the Imperial hierarchy, he could even boss Vader around. Maybe not everyone in the Empire is bad, but the fact is the Imperial system enables these types of people, and as such the Empire is a danger to its citizens.

>>52477294
Because everyone knew Tarkin would go blow up a planet immediately.

Because we know he wouldn't get reprimanded for it, even though that would be left up to debate because he died the day after it happened and went straight for Yavin.

Because the Imperial hierarchy is so evil, considering many other Moffs and Palpatine himself didn't approve of Tarkin's actions.

Because Tarkin was truly symbolic of the entire Empire, a man who hated the Emperor and bossed everyone around and was an unpopular douche that wanted to rule the Empire for himself.

>>52477271
Killing the non-purebreds like you. Your unkilling kind has delayed the true society long enough. The benefit from the destruction of undersirables outweighs anything else.

Also, just saying darkie proves youu're a sheepie.

>>52477273
>Vader is just some random imperial
Or he's the second in command given near unlimited resources and authority because the emperor fully supports his actions. Vader's actions ARE the actions of the empire, there is no seperating them
>Just following orders
I'm not a fan of comparing things to nazis for shock value. But come on dude, at least make me work for it.

>>52477365
Well, I see then. You have the mental capacity of a fetal alcohol child playing with firecrackers and genuinely can't understand physical reality when it offends your extremely sensitive emotional views. I hope whoever has to take care of a mental defective like you does a good job.

>>52477370
Vader didn't choose to destroy Alderaan, Tarkin did.

And by your logic, if a high-ranking general of a nation's worldwide army ordered the bombing of a civilian city, then every single serviceman in that nation's army across the world should be held responsible.

The Empire has billions upon billions upon billions of soldiers. Tarkin's actions - hell, even if the entire Death Star's crew was held accountable - would still not make all of those dozens of billions evil.

This is also assuming you consider Tarkin outright evil rather than pragmatic. The choice to destroy Alderaan was similar to the US bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

"Do we kill a hundred thousand civilians and make the enemy surrender, or do we risk the lives of millions of our servicemen and theirs combined?"

"Do we blow up a planet and kill millions of people, many of whom are active enemies of ours, or do we plan to risk the lives of millions of our servicemen, theirs, and their civilians in a prolonged siege?"

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For those of you who didn't watch the sequels, I don't blame you but there's a deeper message there. Many who watched them missed it.

Now, red pill or blue pill? Is it really bitter truth vs sweet lie or is it something else? Turns out, they're both lies. One just tastes worse than the other so like an edgy pre-teen, people swallow it & think it's true. You put two lies next to each other & all the sudden the bigger lie looks bigger & the smaller lie looks smaller.

>>52477452
Choosing between the Empire and Rebellion is voting for either a giant douchebag or a shit sandwich.

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>>52477452
A popular fan theory was that there was a "super matrix" on top of the Matrix. Neo, Morpheus & more were still wired up to a system they don't know exists & even the real life stuff in the Matrix was still an illusion.

Literally, it is false yet metaphorically it's astonishingly accurate. The One, The Oracle, they were all a part of this system to reload the Matrix every so & so. Not even The One was free, if anything The One was the least free as his/her actions & even end result was planned. The One sacrifices him/herself, surviving Zion members become the new Matrix bluepills & rinse, lather & repeat. The Matrix still has them & ironically every redpill is a necessity for both this system & the Matrix to function. No redpills = no more bluepills either.

This is how the redpill was a lie. It's the farthest from freedom as it can get. It's a false freedom which people unknowingly swallow.

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>>52477554
Just listen to the quotes of the characters

Morpheus: I don’t understand it. Everything was done as it was supposed to be done. Once The One reaches the Source, the war should be over.

Neo: In 24 hours it will be.

Morpheus: What?

Neo: If we don’t do something in 24 hours, Zion will be destroyed.

Link: What?

Trinity: How do you know that?

Neo: I was told it would happen.

Morpheus: By whom?

Neo: It doesn’t matter. I believed him.

Morpheus: That’s impossible, the prophecy tells us…

Neo: It was a lie, Morpheus. The prophecy was a lie. The One was never meant to end anything. It was all another system of control.

Morpheus: I don’t believe that.

Neo: But you said it yourself – how can the prophecy be true if the war isn’t over? I’m sorry. I know it isn’t easy to hear, but I swear to you it’s the truth.

So is this the "Redpill = Truth" message so many in-universe & IRL say? Nope, it's as far from it as can be. So what is the right choice?

>>52475217
>not feeling sympathy for the side you as a society share the most traits with

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>>52477638
For those who've watched the movies, Neo doesn't just get redpilled once. He gets another per movie whenever he meets the Oracle.

First meeting in the apartment, he swallows the candy & I doubt he even chewed. Kinda like over half the IRL "redpills".

Second meeting in the park before the Burly Brawl, he takes but doesn't swallow it. I guess it fell out of his pocket fighting the Smiths.

Third time? He doesn't even take the pill. He just rejects it.

What does this mean? He's starting to think for himself. He's starting to wonder if the choices he's been presented with are the only choices. In the end, he rejects both pills, red & blue, & does what no One has ever done. He broke the system. That's why Neo is special. Being redpilled? So have thousands. The One? He's not even the only One. Rejecting both pills, making his own choices & eventually making peace between man & machine? That's it.

>>52475830
Citation?

>>52477727
I fucking love this movie and I fucking love you

Althought have you seen the mr. Smith is the one theory?

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>>52477727
That's the message of the movies. The choices presented aren't always the ones infront of you & it's those who can make their own path who're truly great. Someone hands you a gun & says to kill someone or they'll kill your family. Why not just shoot the asshole who's threatening you & foolish enough to give you the gun?

This is /tg/ for crying out loud, anyone ever encountered a shitty GM? Are the only choices to stay & cooperate or leave? Hell no, derail the guy's campaign & make a thread about how hilarious the results are. By leaving, that's a potentially assblasted GM left untouched.

Those who call themselves redpilled are just as delusional as anyone else. They somehow missed one of the key themes of the movie. They think they're free yet can't realize they're not & that the movies themselves say so.

By the way, who would accept a shiny red pill from a dangerous world-infamous terrorist with Morpheus' reputation anyway? Seriously, that pill can be a bomb or poison or something

>>52476575
By the same token, what proof have we that Alderaan had no weapons or is peaceful?

Leia's introduction is basically her using lethal force against an enemy who just said 'set for stun'. If she is our representative of Alderaan, they don't seem that peaceful to me.

Besides, Tarkin said that Dantooine was too remote, not that Alderaan wasn't a target at all.

>>52476829
>It's fucking official canon in-universe that the Empire is evil and awful
Where does a canon source say that? We know the rebels considered it evil and awful, but that's hardly objective. We know Palpatine and Vader were both dark side users, which isn't a good sign, but they aren't the only ones high up and they aren't everywhere. The empire is probably evil overall, but we don't know that objectively.

>>52475928
I can see some portion of imperials believing the line that it is a defensive weapon, or that they can save lives overall by maintaining order via the threat of mass extermination. It's wrong, but I could see people believing that.

The empire's main deal was order and stability, a relatively short time after a massive war, and a large portion of people just want to live their lives in peace. I can easily see the majority of people working directly for the empire thinking they're making the galaxy a better place, whether or not they actually are (which we don't know).

>>52477850
>Leia's introduction is basically her using lethal force against an enemy who just said 'set for stun'.

And then afterwards tortured her. It's not really mercy if you are capturing them for torture.

>>52477848

Heck, even BEST case scenario, you just took medicine/drugs from a guy you can't trust. Hope you packed your bags because you're going for a trip.

>>52475035
Ever since EAfront fucked up the glorious T-21 away from air cooled Lewis gun support fire you're right. (I do SORTA like the slow high damage version too I will admit, but making the semi auto sniper/DMR version SHORTER will never not piss me off.)

>>52468335
Because a shot that hits the right spot will incapacitate one in a single bolt. (And yes, during his last stand they made sure none of the bolts hit the same place Jyn shot the other KX unit, though I still think it was at least partly down to K2 "Pulling a Dinobot" and overriding the emergency maintenance shutdown.)

>>52477853
George Lucas when he owned the IP, and now Disney backs it up as well. The Dark Side is canonically a tumor, and something that is not needed for balance. "Balance" in the force is purely represented by the Light with no Darkness.

>>52466371
Yeah,m they were at least running for cover, they failed to take advantage of what little cover the door did offer. (I did like that the set designers looked at the nonsensical bit with Han crouching next to the Endor bunker door for nonexistent cover and decided they could do better.)

Getting stuck in a door is no fun. And if they hung back they could have been grenade bait.

>>52469053
No, Doyle specifically made at least the early Holmes books solvable by anyone paying attention in the first few chapters.

>>52475658
Because it's easy to write off a stupid plot when you have an excuse like that.

>>52477878
I have trouble seeing that as torture, to be honest. Yes, its implied to be, but lets compare to Han on Cloud City, which is explicitly torture.
We don't hear her screaming, we do for Han.
She is fine the next time we see her, Han is pretty obviously fucked up.
Han says something to the effect of 'they didn't even ask any questions'.

It can be argued that it was torture, sure, and there are even holes with what I've said above, but I don't think its fair to call it torture.

>>52466242
I completely forgot the second, wider hallway he was covering, if he was JUST covering the one hallway and they couldn't use grenades or risk sealing the chamber off it would have been fine.

>>52475484
Yeah I disliked that because well, the stuntmen can;'t exactly give themselves whiplash to make it look like they were plausibly concussed, and they didn't want to go up a rating to give her a damn vibroblade.

>>52475544
Han knocked out a scout trooper right? And in the EU yes Kyle's fists were deadly weapons.

Hey guys


How about that Stormtrooper armor?

>>52475013

You graduate that nigga if you have to attend every class from here out in-person. He is a hero addressing the very real problems we all face.

>>52477895
No.

Kyle Katarn puts it best: "The Force is neither good nor evil; it depends on how you use it."

The Light and Dark are Yin and Yang. Both rely on each other and it is the existence of the other that allows the other to exist.

>>52477878
>>52477945
She was captured for interrogation, refused to talk, and was then tortured.

She was also given a relatively nice cell, her clothes kept clean, hair kept neat. She was forcefully interrogated, but it wasn't a miserable existence. She even smarts off to Luke thinking he's a Stormtrooper, implying that she hasn't been instilled with some kind of fear yet or simply doesn't care anymore.

>>52477949
Han knocked out a Scout Trooper by attacking him from behind (and IIRC slamming his head into a tree). That's different from going fisticuffs with a soldier and winning.

Even still, fistfighting Stormtroopers and winning is retarded no matter who does it, unless you're a Wookiee, Trandoshan, or martial arts expert. Anyone else would be beaten the fuck out of. Stormtroopers receive intensive CQC training.

>>52478191
>The Light and Dark are Yin and Yang. Both rely on each other and it is the existence of the other that allows the other to exist.
Nope. The Dark Side is a cancer and the incarnates of the force were corrupted by it- they naturally exist purely as light side entities but the Son fell to temptation. The Dark Side is pure evil, and nothing good comes from it.

>>52478354
This is some 24px low-tier bait.

>>52478399
I take it then you haven't watched the Clone Wars 3D cartoon. Because the Father, Son, and Daughter shoot dead any idea of the Dark Side being anything other than a pure evil tumor.

Star Wars is not a moral grey setting. It's polar absolutes like DnD.

>>52477958
> expecting people on 4chan to stay on topic

>>52474750
>Then of course there's the favorite topic of Mando armor where Sabine survived a head and chest shot deflected back at her by Vader personally and survived.

Well, the blaster shots deflected by a lightsaber never seem to pick up extra power or force to them, so just because it's Vader doing the deflecting isn't exactly a big deal, she'd have survived a head and chest shot from anybody doing it, largely because it seems that her armour, while less in most places, was enough on her head and chest.

The plot armour is that it happened to hit exactly where she has the most protection, not who was deflecting it.

>>52477893
I only played about 10 minutes of EAfront, so I honestly can't say I follow in the slightest. As far as crew served weapons we see in the movies, the closest thing they have would probably be the E-Web out of the Hoth attack in ESB, which is more akin to a Mk.19 automatic grenade launcher, mandates a crew to carry the weapon, mounting system, ammunition and is far from mobile, but good at blasting apart more hardened defenses than a typical blaster could do. Something that I would have liked to see would to have the DC-15s (If I remember correctly) that the clones used mainly in AotC that had the size, weight and fire rate of a medium machingun used as, you know, a medium machingun not as a bog-standard infantry rifle. Really would have added a fair bit to the feeling that the clones were worth a damn and cloning one of the best killers of all time was actually better than grabbing some random schmuck off the street.

>>52466242
>other Imperial droid goes down instantly with a single shot from a blaster pistol
>protagonist droid takes a billion shots from blaster rifles and doesn't go down

This kind of stuff always pisses me off.

>people made fun of stormtroopers since endor
>but its totally disney fault theyre not scary anymore guys!

Lol nostalgiafags

>>52480539
So you hate action movies huh