Is Warcraft the only setting where Orcs are an actual major race

You seem to be under the misconception that the Warcraft 3 "noble savage" orcs are in any way a standard interpretation of what an orc is.

Warcraft 1+2 were closer to their inspirations.

>they are not mindlessly evil
Kill yourself, Metzen

>>52447130
That's not what the OP's question is at all.

>>52447146
>hurr Thrall is evil because I said so I'm 12 yo and I love Wh40k hehe Emperor so gud space marines so big ;)

kill yourself

The problem with Warcraft orcs was to turn them into a "normal" race and hand-wave all of their barbarian behaviour from previous two games with a "possession" but persist in their barbarian behaviour past that.

Also, look at Elder Scrolls for non-standard orcs.

I actually always respected that about WoW. I liked that orcs weren't traditional bad guys and actually mattered.

However I have to give Warhammer it's credit and say its super entertaining. I find the orks hilarious and love the concepts in 40k, but in small doses.

I'm a roleplayer so I'd like other lords over murder hobo the game

>>52447090
You remind me of a time when Warcraft orcs were actually interesting

Then Kosak ruined everything

>>52447274
Forgot to answer,

That I know of, Wow is the only setting like that. but the best part of games needing imagination is you can make your own setting. I usually do orcs as wow level.

>>52447090
No, they destroyed the fucking elven homeworld in Spelljammers.

>>52447258
Elder scrolls orcs are a good example. Warlike and reviled, yeah. But they can get along fine in society.

>>52447258
TES Orcs are punching bags.

>>52447090
>both have pretty valid reasons to hate each other
Are you kidding me? Orcs were the invaders and aggressors from day 1!
The only mistake that Terenas ever committed was not to put all the orcs to death once he had them in camps.

>>52447329
>Killing a shitload of elfes
>bad

>>52447410
Hi Proudmoore.

>>52447090
The only problem I have with warcraft orcs is they went through all the trouble to be smart in 3 and then in WoW they went back to full retard constantly.

>>52447410
>abloobloo I'm a humanigger I attacked fucking Trolls alongside my elven fuckbuddies and dindunuffin but when Orcs attack me ithey are eeeeevil :(

>>52447807
Trolls deserve every bit of shit they get. Fucking savages. muh vol'jin

>>52447832
Humans deserved Scourge as well.

>>52447278
Who is Kosak?

>>52447898
The head writer for Warcraft since Cataclysm

So everything the orcs have done from Cataclysm onwards is his fault

>>52447895
Scourge should have been playable.

>>52448004
It is. In Warcraft 3 you fucking WoW playing normie cancer.

>>52448077
Well why didn't it stay playable?

>>52448107
>What are the Forsaken
>What are Death Knights
>What are scourge are mindless slaves of the Lich King and not suitable for a game about adventuring

>>52447741
>spend all your time working for peace
>make massive concessions to get it
>get nuked anyway
>people hate you when you are mad about this

Being Jaina is suffering.

>>52448159
I'm not mad at Jaina

I'm mad at the writers for ruining Jaina and everything related to Jaina

>>52448274
Imagine how I feel mate. I liked Arthas.

>>52447090
>every race is one dimensional as fuck and both Orcs and human factions are lame because they don't act like people at all they are caricatures of some trope

This describes Warcraft characters perfectly.

>>52448159
Seems to be a theme with Blizzard, either everything going well for characters or everything going poorly.

Reminder that the lore past WC3 is complete shit tier and the cancellation of Lord of the Clans robbed us of the best part of Warcraft. WC3 would have been so much better with LotC lore behind it.

>>52448602
Lord of the Clans if not canon? Since when?

>>52448601
It's mostly just retarded writers. Jaina was Metzen's waifu in WC3, hence her role. She was mostly forgotten in Vanilla, because that was mostly wild flailing and beyond that, nobody remembered Theramore even existed.
Then somebody Kosak showed up with a giant retard-boner for WC2 and everything that was even loosely affiliated with non-retard Orcs had to go. Hence Thrall becoming pussywhipped, Orcs regressing to complete dindus, Rexxar and Drek'thar becoming literal whos and Theramore getting nuked.

>>52448645
It has Deathwing as Alexstraza's son and dragons just as big, assholish lizards and not Aspects, so go figure.

>Cataclysm forced Deathwing in to the big roaring fucktard role
>Every piece of media beforehand writes him as a Lucifer-like great deceiver with amazing charisma and a fondness for playing the long game
>Deathwing used his pure fucking charm while in disguises to get Stormwind to lower its defenses
>Was able to learn about orcs in person with nobody any the wiser

>>52447090
>>have battleships with cannons instead of going ''hurr fuck technology''
Tolkien's orcs are the most technologically advanced race in Middle-earth.

>>52448789
Kosak is a shit writer

In other news, water is wet

>>52447278
>>52448750
>Kosak

What was it exactly that he wrote that made people hate him? I don't pay attention to who is writing what.

>>52447090
Genocidal army invades someone's planet.
Genocidal army commits mass extermination of native life.
Genocidal army still retains same name, same flag, and still reveres the same genocidal psychopaths.
Genocidal army claims that the "bad stuff" they did was demonic mind control that they're not culpable for while still idolizing them.
Trust me, if you use Warcraft style orcs, the PCs will generally not notice the difference between them ruthlessly exterminating humanity because "my noble heritage and proud tribal traditions" vs default orcs.

If anything, Warcraft orcs are more contemptible because of the way they engaged in depraved behavior like normal orcs while playing the self pitying victim.

>>52447090
>warcraft
>being it's own setting
Um, try again sweetie

>>52448839
Thrall is one of the few reasonable characters in Warcraft alongside Jaina which he propably fucked without a condom in front of his Horde.

>>52447258
Not quite, frostwolf orcs were always more geared towards diplomacy, and they're the ones who were in charge of the horde during most of warcraft. Whenever the warsong orcs were in charge massive wars happened.

>Warcraft orcs better than warhammer orcs

stopped reading there

>>52448159
>kill your own father because of a disagreement
>take the power of an ancient thunder god
That power is what corrupted her, she's a lost cause at this point and will likely do something retarded and wind up dead

>>52448909
They could kick their fucking ass easily WH Orcs can't even deal with scrawny humans who serve as target practice for other races meanwhile Warcraft Orcs can hold their own against planet destroying demons and humans who look like bodybuilders on average.

>>52448824
Everything from Cataclysm onwards regarding the main plot

Minor zone storylines were written by other people, but the general story of each expansion from Cataclysm to Legion is his work.

>>52448750
Garrosh was being corrupted by an old god, the warsong orcs are already war like as is.

>>52448909
It's canon that on average it takes two humans working together to kill a single average orc in warcraft.

>>52448990
I actually thought this was a cool idea with bad execution, the leader of a Chthulu cult being a warrior instead of the usual mage. I think that might work for a setting.

>>52448909
More like

>anything Warcraft better than anything Warhammer

Warcraft is basically the worst kind of fantasy.

>>52449191
They're both shit.

>>52449191
Yet it still shits on Warhammer.

>>52448990
The Warsong were warlike, but they fucked up so hard in RoC that they should be docile poodles. But Blizzard needed to jam the Horde into Ashenvale somehow and decided that Battlegrounds are a good idea, so the retardation started there.
It's ironic, Proudmoore was proven 100% right and Jaina seems like a naive idiot now, when back in WC3 Orcs demonstrably had a bunch of level-headed folks around that warranted the trust Jaina gave them.

>>52448860
What's your point? Even FR has the main orc faction being ruled by a reasonable guy.

>>52448602
FYI, There is a custom campaign for the Lord of the Clans based on the novel.

>>52447953
Behead him. Now. So many crimes. So many.

>>52449291
The fuck is FR?

>>52448977

Jesus, and I thought Knaak was a haack.

>>52449314
Fuckbegotten Realms, the lowest common denominator of D&D settings.

>>52448815
Yeah, but most people think of the movie orcs, which were literally just ooga booga retards incapable of doing anything unless somebody told them to.

>>52449314
>The fuck is FR
Its only the most popular official rpg setting of all time despite being utter shit

Think of what board you are in and try to reason what could FR possibly stand for.

>>52449434
I don't fucking play tabletop I thought this is a Dawn of War board.

>>52449434
>Forgotten Realms
>popular
What? I know its supposed to be the default setting but I know so few people who care about it.

>>52449454
Even /v/ knows about forgotten realms m8

Almost all the dnd games are set on it.

>>52449423
Isn't that pretty accurate?

>>52449502
I don't fucking play RPG games.

>>52449482

Its by far the most popular D&D setting of all time by a huge margin. Nothing comes close.

>>52449509
You have the stats for this? I am genuinely interested in what the popularity of settings is.

>>52449482
It is the official 5e setting
Always gets the most splats in every edition

I might be wrong but i cant think of a tabletop rpg setting that is more popular.

And despite all this it manages to be so bad and boring

>>52449508
Its still common knowledge on both boards

>>52447090
Elder Scrolls

>>52449531
This is what has me wondering. Forgotten Realms does not have a particularly strong identity outside of it being the official setting, so much so that I have played modules from it without realizing they were part of forgotten realms.

>>52449314
>>52449454
>>52449508
Literally how new are you?

>>52449580
I just came here from Reddit to discuss Minecraft and Game of Thrones.

>>52449531
>It is the official 5e setting

It is not, but most modules set it in FR by default. The closest 5e has to an official setting is the Manual of the Planes cosmology (Planescape with the memes stripped out).

>>52447391
>I say, Degaine, isn't it Turdas?
>Indeed it is, Reynald! By the Nine, I almost forgot it was time to sack Orsinium again!

>>52449660
It's the greater planescape with the material plane being Toril.

>>52449726

Its essential to remember that FR is very much the opposite of default -- FR simply doesn't use the same cosmology of Planescape, Greyhawk, and even Dark Sun and Birthright (although their Shadowfell analog is of much greater relevance than, say, the Outer Planes).

The default setting for D&D is the multiverse that includes all campaigns.

About the most you can say is that most APs feature FR by default, which is very different. The DMG, and even Volo's, makes no reference to the FR cosmology.

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>>52449531
Meanwhile Greyhawk, a vastly better and more well-developed setting, gets no love at all. Thank goodness tabletop allows me to set my campaign wherever I so please.

>>52447367
What I like about Elder Scrolls Orcs is that they seem fine, their culture is fine and they very much are probably the nicest elves you can meet.

It's just bretons are racist cunts.

>>52448159
>Spend time working for peace
>Make Theramore a vanguard for the Alliance to attack horde heartlands.

>>52449863
Funnily enough orsimer are the nicest race in tamriel XD

>>52449863
>It's just bretons are racist cunts.

"Breton" is a funny way of spelling "literally everyone."

>>52449842

Do any Greyhawk modules cover its titular dungeon besides the very memey and lol randumb xD 2e one?

>>52449896
Except ironically, Nords and Imperials.

nobody seems to care about the Strongholds in Skyrim.

>>52449508
Then what are you doing in this thread?

>>52449899
Greyhawk is a city-state in the setting, not a dungeon (though it HAS one, if you're thinking about Castle Greyhawk). Personally, I use the setting for its established lore and setting rather than the modules. It lets me run a fairly solid campaign while I work on my own setting.

>>52449905
To be fair, they have more important shit to worry about and even the Orcs in Skyrim admit to being a race in decline.

>>52449905
>Nords
>not racist

the fuck are you on about

>>52449905
Nords are still racist, but in the Deep South style. They'll be super vocal about it, and everyone else thinks it's their defining trait, yet in spite of this by and large don't actually give a shit when it comes down to individuals.

>>52449217
Warcraft was a fun RTS, but holy hell its lore and worldbuilding suck ass, EVERYONE is a fucking demi god or mage and everythings so OTT and its just all so so high fantasy shit

>>52450783
Not like Warhammer where every named character can pulverize a dozen imperial spearmen or Orcs right?

>>52449905
Shame about what was happening in high rock.

I've noticed a trend
people just don't like high fantasy anymore

>>52451058
Did you just pretend that Warcraft is high fantasy?

>>52451058
Possibly, I thinks its more that the high fantasy works that are still continuing have all gone to shit.

>>52451094
Are you gonna pretend it's not?

>>52447090
>>52447090
I miss warcraft two when the Alliance genocided its way across Draenor.
Fuck Orcs.
Tauren are pretty cool guys, they can stay.
But seriously, fuck orcs.

>>52451161
More like Orcs fuck humans lol. Thrall fucked Jaina and she squirted another Well of Eternity it's cannon I work for Blizzard.

>>52451058
dump the late medieval plate-armored paladins and christ-like churches aesthetic

go back to the tolkien mythic pre-chivalry aesthetic

>>52451145
there there little wowfan

there there

>>52447189
Thrall isn't evil.
Except for that time he left the Horde to Garrosh, who is worse than his father in basically every way.

>>52451094
mate there are thousands of fucking wizards, warlocks, undead knights with dark powers.
There are cthulhu monsters, there are dragon gods who work alongside constructs of even bigger gods who were made by a big bang of holy and evil magic.
>>52451186
Paladins are the best part of warcraft

>>52451237
mate they are all aliens that came to earth on spaceships

>>52447807
>I attack people who EAT ME
>I'm just as bad as alien invaders from another planet who want to genocide me, to escape from how they destroyed their own planet.

Not sure if you remember, but Trolls used to eat humans and elves.

>>52451256
that doesn't make it science fiction you dolt
it's science fantasy at best

>>52451258
muh forests muh peace muh spirits

fuggen racist elves and humans oppressing trolls jus tryin to get they lives back on track

>>52451266
>completely assravaged wownigger flips his shit.jpg

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>>52451184
metzen pls go and stay go. You already ruined Starcraft. How many more noble IPs must you defile before it sates your mad lust for power?

>>52451237
Hmm, for me the paladin is exactly the sort of thing I don't like about the direction high fantasy has taken. It's a matter of taste, of course.

>>52451306
paladins are just Clerics with shittier spells

>>52451220
Do you know what the definition of high fantasy is you dumb fucking ameridiot? Go get shot by a nigger or something.

>>52451258
It's part of their culture don't be racist.

>>52451405
Um... sorry sweetie I do know what the definition of high fantasy is and you clearly don't. *sips tea*

>>52451430
Part of my culture is killing people who try to eat me, don't be racist.

>>52448839
Hertiage not hate~

>>52451297
I am pretty sure Starcraft 2 was not written by Metzen, I am sure even he would remember this discrepancy.

>>52451485
don't use ~
ever

>>52448136
>Forsaken
No wonder Warcraft lore will always be fucking shit.

>>52451496
>not written by Metzen

It was, at least he was part of the team and considering he was creative director for Blizzard for a long time its quite likely that he was the main writer for it. Its no coincidence that the WC3 plot and the SC2 story are stupidly similar because they were both written by Metzen.

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>>52451995
zerg were good aliums they dindu nuffin
need mo planets fo dem programs

>>52451919
Nothing wrong with rebel zombies, anon.

>>52452081
>led by a mary sue bitch
>no Scarlet Crusade
>meme werewolves who do fucking nothing after legion

Can we just get a Lordearon Forsaken instead and have Sylvanas put into the rape dungeon?

>>52451222
That's because Grom died a goddamned hero, and was an excellent general (he would have made a bad warchief though).

>>52449217
Please, don't be a retard. Warhammer invented half the ideas that Warcraft goes to great lengths to fuck up.

The only remotely interesting thing Warcraft ever contributed to the fantasy genre is goodguy orcs, but it can't even do that well, since it comes off as forced and internally inconsistent.

>>52449217
LOL

Not even fucking Blizzard takes Warcraft seriously.

>>52451444
Not even the same guy... But they have several different planes of existence, elemental planes, elementals, Multiple ancient gods and evils, Dozens of sentient races that all interact, another planet where orcs come from, and draeni fly from in magic space ship and interdimensional interplanetary demons who fought the universal creation pantheon and shit.... its high fantasy

>>52447090
>>have battleships with cannons instead of going ''hurr fuck technology''

In LOTR Orcs are actually the most technologically developed. Orc owned lands are described as being smoggy and polluted like some fucked up John Brunner novel

>>52452014
Fucking hell, Carbot was the best thing to come out of that mess that is Starcraft 2.

>>52452457
Um... try again sweetie, warcraft will never be high fantasy.

*sips tea*

>>52452515
Then what the fuck is Warcraft? Meme fantasy?

>>52452515
OHHHH I get it, you're one of them "internet troll" types

>>52452614
*sips tea*

>>52452614
You finally got it.

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Should've listened to him, he did nothing wrong.

>>52448159
>Spend all your time working for peace.
>Have subordinates put pressure on neutral trade hub and attack any ships not flying Alliance flags, third parties be damned.
>Not lift a finger as your allies homes are ravaged by the orc menace, only freak out when they bomb your city-state.

The poor woman.

>>52449359
I enjoyed the Diablo books he wrote, maybe it was because I was 12 at the time

>>52452614
Anon, I appreciate your attempts at intergeting logic into the argument and all, but this is the internet, and 4chan on top of it, the other guy's whole point is "I don't like it, so it's bad!" at best you're going to get a bunch of puffed up opinions presented as fact or such flawlessly thought out logical arguments as "it's shit!" or "someone on reddit/tumblr/whatever site is boogeyman of the month likes it!"

>>52447410
Garrosh did nothing wrong.

>>52447090
>both have pretty valid reasons to hate each other

When orcs send us their people, they're not sending their best. They're sending orcs that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with them. None, I assume, are good people. Orcs, you have to go back.

>>52451806
It was a joke I think

>>52451222
In Garrosh's defense he said him being Warchief was a terrible idea. Cairne undermining him didn't help either

>>52453078
it's a joke but anyone who uses ~ is still cancerous

>>52454541
Um... that's where you're wrong sweetie~

>>52451222
>Thrall isn't evil
>Except for that time he made a stupid desiscion
>implying Thrall is evil because he made Garrosh leader of the Horde.

Being evil requires a desire to be cruel and bring pain to others.
You can't be accidentally evil.
You can accidentally do a bad thing, but for something to be evil there has to be intent.
Thrall was just had a bad idea.
Poor execution too.

>>52455296
There were two much better options for Horde leadership, but he gave it to the son of a bloodthirsty psychopath, who is also a bloodthirsty psychopath, because he still idolized the kid's father.

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>>52448839

>tfw orcs are fantasy muslims

>>52448860

Thrall rapidly became a ridiculous spotlight-hogging Mary Sue who distorted the entire universe around his gravitational pull. For entire expansion packs the storyline hinged around Thrall and orcs in general.

If I'd been Alliance playing through Warlords of Draenor I would've wanted to shoot myself in the face.

>>52454656
please
stop
it makes me read things in tranny voices

>>52455367
I'm not saying it was a good idea, actually i said it was a bad idea. But the person i replied to implied his actions were evil. Unless Thrall's intention was to unleash pain the suffering upon people by instating Garrosh as Warchief of the Horde, then his actions weren't evil. They were just stupid.

>>52447130
Yeah I played the shit out of WC1 and 2 when I was younger. WC3 while a fun game that I enjoyed a lot, I always hated its depiction of the Orcs as 'misunderstood' or whatever.

Oh no you can't imprison them, that's bad! Some green arsed hulking barbarian type comes steaming out of a portal destroys the biggest kingdom and tries to kill everyone, all the while covorting with daemons and raised skelly bones men to fight for them. The clear answer would be to LEAVE NONE OF THE FUCKERS ALIVE.

>>52452732
>Legion and Undead patsy

He did everything fucking wrong.

>>52455484
>If i'd been playing Warlords of Draenor I would've wanted to shoot myself in the face.
fixed

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I used to pore over my copy of this when I was younger. It's a shame I lost my phyiscal version in a house move years ago.

I always liked the Warcarft lore because it was relatively simple and had a cool aesthetic to a 10 year old boy in 1996. Now I look at it and it's a complete clusterfuck that lost all of its charm.

>>52455583
WC3 did a good job showing the orcs as savages, but more than just savage. It wasn't until WoW that they turned into the good boys who dindu nuffin.

I think the most frustrating part of the Warcraft lore is just how close it gets to my favorite fantasy concept, which is two evil factions fighting a full out war against each other

Warcraft lore is a complete clusterfuck, but if we had JUST gotten a story about the Scourge going nuts on the Legion I could forgive it all

>>52449905
THE GREYQUARTER DAMN ELVES STINKIN UP OUR CITY

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>>52449863
>It's just bretons are racist cunts.
Motherfucker you think I'm gonna let the Orcs squat in MY High Rock without permission, especially after the Redguard drove us out of Hammerfell? Fat fucking chance. There's only one difference between a Breton and an Orc and it's that while Bretons and Orcs wouldn't have a home without High Rock, the Bretons DO have High Rock, we've had High Rock for as long as our bastard elf forefathers fucked our eventually liberated foremothers, and we'll have High Rock until the end of time if I have anything to say about it.

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Metzen ruined orcs just like how he ruined the overmind

ORCS DINDU NUFFIN WRONG.

Fuck that.

>>52455484
You mean like Tirion in Wrath of the Lich King?

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>>52457547
Without Metzen we're getting Illidan dindu nuffin wrong!

>>52447090
>their relationship with Humans is also well done neither of them are really evil
Warcraft Orcs are literally dindus. They commit atrocities and don't oppose evil acts of their brethren. Orcs get away guilt free because the are perfect noble savage race.

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>>52448839
>Genocidal army claims that the "bad stuff" they did was demonic mind control that they're not culpable for while still idolizing them.

Wrong.

i really liked the blood elves's writing in bc

aesthetic of a classical high fantasy race... except it's really an orwellian police state where dissidents are mind controlled into obedience and the paladins get their powers from torturing an eidolon

then like everything else metzen fucked it up

>>52457547
>ruined the overmind
But the Overmind wasn't changed at all.
>but Wings of Liberty!
That shit was a hallucination made by Ouros specifically to fool Zeratul so he'd get moving and save Kerrigan. There's no indication that it's an accurate representation of the Overmind's history. It was just framed in a fashion that Zeratul would accept unquestioningly.

>>52457779
Jesus Tassadar: "Forget everything you know zeratul.... the overmind was... altered"

F U C K Y O U

>>52457792
That was a hallucination made by Ouros. Tassadar is completely dead.

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>>52449599

>>52457742
>Grom Hellscream
>The first Orc to drink the Demon Blood and lead to their race being utterly fucked
>On multiple occasions disregards the betterment of his species, his nation, and even his tribe just to sate his bloodlust
>Drinks the demon blood AGAIN just because he's getting fucked over by some elves, that he only fought with to sate his bloodlust.
>Treated as a hero by the Orcs and idolized.

>People still think Metzen was the one to completely fuck up Orcs

Metzen stopped being a major writer after Wrath to start work on Overwatch. He set it up where Garrosh would become a more War-oriented Warchief. Hell, he wanted WoD to be a sort of Cataclysm for Outland, with Garrosh making a personal army there of remaining clans.

The whole "Orcs dindu nuffin', we nobles n stuff" didn't get solidified until Durotan came back.

>>52458054
They consider him a hero because despite fucking up that bad, he still got a hold on himself and 1 shot the bastard who was handing out his demon blood in the first place.

>>52458054

The point is that people call orcs dindus but all accounts show them owning up to their mistakes, not passing the blame.

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Sort of related; what other settings have Elves be the descendants/evolution of a much different race?

>>52458182
Retro fantasy like Shanara where fantasy races including elves are evolved humans?

>>52452115
>implying Genn will do nothing

Sylvanas does need to die, though.

Alternatively, you could fully rez her and make her the thing she hates most - the living.

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>>52455484
>who distorted the entire universe around his total inability to be a decent judge of character at all

Gallywix is the most Goblin-y Goblin to ever Gob, but if the Bilgewater want to get anywhere with anyone he's got to go.

>>52455367
You mean Baine and Vol'jin, right? You forgot one.

>>52458256
>Trusting Goblins
>Ever
No.

>>52458278
He's not who I meant in the spoiler, though he WOULD have been a better Warchief than Garrosh if it paid better than being worse.

The one you forgot was Lor'themar.

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>>52458197
Fair point, but I kind of meant races quite a bit different from the Elves themsElves.

WC Elves are evolved Trolls, for instance.

>>52458310
>Trusting Blood Elves
>Ever
No.

>>52458340
He's literally the best option besides Baine right now. He's proven this entire time to be a sane and sensible leader who knows when to be ceremonial and when to get right to the point, considers all his options and acts on the one he genuinely considers best, and puts his people before his own ambitions.

Certainly better than Sylvanas "Deploy the Plague" Windrunner. Funny, considering he was her second-in-command back in the High Elf days.

>>52458378
>a sane and sensible leader
Pretty sure this is the guy who tortures spirits of Light so he can have Paladins.

>>52455484
Fucking Cataclysm. There was a questline that both sides had to take where Thrall goes on this spiral of elemental self-doubt, and you have to accompany his fuckbuddy in convincing him that nothing is his fault and he only made the right choices. This includes putting Grommash in charge. And the questline ends with his wedding to said fuckbuddy. Fuck Thrall.

>>52458054
He technically freed them too. He had the decency to clean up his own mess.

>>52458389
Those were Kael'thas "I'm gonna give Kil'jaeden the Sunwell" Sunstrider's orders. Anyone who went along with it did so out of respect for a leader they hadn't yet realized had gone off the deep end and also because they really needed that windchime to remove skeleton.

The Scourge threat, even years later, is so bad that Sylvanas successfuly browbeats the BElves into joining the Northrend expedition instead of rebuilding Silvermoon by threatening to remove her troops from the Ghostlands.

>>52458378
>Best option besides Baine
Not even, he IS the flat out best choice.

>Likely more loyal than Sylvanas "Got any more o' dem Val'kyr" Windrunner
>More experience as a leader than Baine
>Dedicated general, like you said he was even Sylvanas' superior in the past
>Was fairly level headed when dealing with Jaina in ToT, not ignoring her or pushing fights
>Likely has enough money by himself to keep Gallywix in line

>>52458256
>goblin starting zone
>Gallywix fucks over the entire cartel
>players counter him at every turn
>he tries to straight up kill Thrall
>Thrall and players defeat him
>"I'm super sorry and I'll never do it again"
>Thrall accepts the apology and leaves him in charge of the entire cartel
>Thrall sends the player off to the barrens to kill quillboars or something

Cataclysm's writing was fucking embarrassing across the board.

>>52458479
Yep.

Trade Princess Sassy Hardwrench when?

>>52458479
The only redeeming questline in all of Cata was the one where Garrosh goes apeshit on that Orc for bombing a civilian Alliance town and shows his growth as a character.

And then they turn around and throw it all away and act like it never happened so he could become the next raid boss in Mists.

Fuck Blizzard.

>>52458665
I think Garrosh could have been done better. He was an experienced general but admittedly untalented at politics. He tried too hard to look strong despite being forced into an unsuitable position.

So Garrosh's corpse is still intact right? This is a world of necromancers & undead yet we just left him there & didn't even loot him?

>>52458723
I'm still waiting for when DKs go and get it. It'll cause a shit storm on all fronts.

>>52458723
His corpse (and his own version of Gorehowl) are still in Nagrand where Thrall left them, yeah. I'm honestly surprised some upstart necromancer or death knight working for the Lich King hasn't revived him yet. Fuck it - I'm surprised they didn't send warrior players out there to take his copy of Gorehowl and then beat up his dad and take his to dual wield for their fury artifact this expansion.

>>52458744
>"WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO MY SON'S BODY?"
>Lol 2axe

>>52458744
Didn't he have alt-Gorehowl at Nagrand after leaving original-Gorehowl on Pandaria?

>>52458760
Oh yeah.

And apparently Pandaria is in fucking shambles right now.

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>>52458760
I don't even fucking know anymore.

>>52458784
>>52458760
>>52458744
METZEN COULD HAVE STOPPED THIS. HE COULD HAVE SAVED US. PUT THEY HAD TO PUT HIM ON OVERWATCH.

I mean it was probably his dream project so I can't really blame him but COME ON

I played WCIII first and thus didn't mind "Orcs are noble savage nao"

then I played Starcraft 2 when they did that shit to the Zerg and I kinda see the WCII guy's point.

>>52448159
her father was right

>>52458799
They re-use a lot of their plot lines. I'm fully convinced that they can't write anything good anymore so they just ride the coattails of what good story and characters they used to have and just ride them into the ground because they're too retarded to do anything else.

>>52447278
>>52447898
>>52447953
>>52448750
>>52448823
>>52448824
>>52448977
>>52458055

Jeeeeesus. You people need to get off this Kosak bullshit. (sorry some of you I lumped in because "muh writers") First off, you people need to understand they dont. have. writers. Look at the structure they have, the job titles, there are no writers. The people who write the majority of the lore you know are just average joe designer who sometimes writes a thing when he has to.

Kosak gave us possibly the only great character to come out of WoW (granted it didnt start there) with Khadgar, in fact that's the core writing he ever did while on story design, was the legendary quests, not all this bullshit you people try to pin on him.

If you want to point a finger at someone, the person who is actually creatively in charge of making those stupid fucking decisions about plot that you all hate is Afrasiabi. Y'know that guy who went up for the announcement for Legion in Germany? Stumbled over explaining the plot to a bunch of Germans? That's the guy who does the core plot point that the people who dont write then have to make shit up for.

The thing with Garrosh that pissed me off is that he had potential to be an interesting Warchief. I thought Cataclysm would show how Saurfang and Thrall's lectures changed him. He'd start off rough but he'd eventually get his shit together because Thrall had faith in him.

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>Tfw you realize just how strong the Theramore bomb was
>Tfw you realize it hit not just out timeline but multiple others
>Somewhere in the WoW timelines Jaina was having tea with her friends, happily chatting about her engagement with Kalecgos, when suddenly her entire fucking city gets disintegrated into magical purple dust

Jaina is completely right to be mad. The Celestials were fucking stupid, and so was Taran Zhu.

Garrosh should have died in Orgrimmar.

>>52458799
>then I played Starcraft 2 when they did that shit to the Zerg
That was an illusion crafted by Ouros to manipulate Zeratul.
The closest thing to a noble zerg is Zagara, who is simply farsighted after her neural upgrades.

>>52458114
People shout dindu because they want to shitpost /pol/ memes, not talk about what actually happens in the setting.

Happens to a lot of threads on /tg/ these days.

>>52458742
The DK story of "getting shit done no matter the cost" is one of my favorites of Legion. If it turns into some bs "the lich king was secretly making them be eviler than normal" I will be pissed.

>>52451995
Metzen's ideas got voted down, though. He wanted Raynor to be much more of a drunken wreck than he actually was in Wings of Liberty.

>>52458882
If they wanted to do that, they shouldn't have had him kill a fan-favourite

The rules to making characters appear as heroes and villains blur in some places, but killing a beloved character, even as a pawn in the plans of another, will forever color everyone's opinion

>>52458887
>tfw when you realize Alexstrasza forgave the orcs for what they did to her personally during the Second War but somehow decided she needed to kill Malygos

>tfw you realize if Jaina had drowned Orgrimmar with the tidal wave, Mulgore and the Barrens would probably be crawling with Naga right now and the Echo Isles would be underwater

>tfw you realize it was being reminded of her dead boyfriend that stayed her hand

>>52458882
>>52459004
>Magatha is still alive after this

>>52458980
So? He was still the boss man in the room, he was the creative director of Blizzard and writer for the game. Im sure the blame for the trainwreck that is SC2 is on all the team but Metzen in particular because eventually he was the one making the decisions and because he did the same shit with the orcs in WC3 after he stepped up from artist to writer/creative director for Blizzard, even if you somehow find an unaltered version of Metzen's script and its pure gold then he still the one to blame as he should've pushed harder and had more weight in making decisions considering HE WAS THE BOSS!.

I love his art but he shouldnt be writing anything because it sucks.

>There'll never be another RTS with this mission briefings

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTwyDr0VUsA&t=1498s

Gul'dan making a new horde when? Thrall and his pussy alliance can bugger off.

>>52458197

Been a while since I read Shannara, but I thought elves were the only race specifically not descended from humans.

>>52459013
>tfw when you realize Alexstrasza forgave the orcs for what they did to her personally during the Second War but somehow decided she needed to kill Malygos
Don't lie, anon. She ate the motherfucker who'd kept her imprisoned the second she was freed, and did a number on the Dragonmaw Clan in general. That's not "personally forgiving", she just didn't take it to racial genocide levels. Malygos died because he went reverse crazy and tried to blow up the world.

>>52451256
Technically, any fantasy setting can be considered Sci/Fi with that logic.

All magic being tech we don't understand, all gods being beings that arn't like us, and the spaceships and portals all have a really arbitrary power source (souls, effectively).

But you know, that sounds like fantasy. And pretty high fantasy at that.

I feel baited.

>>52459045
If anything, I'm surprised people haven't pointed out the similiarities between the plots of StarCraft 1 and Warcraft 3. Arthas' and Kerrigan's storylines have a hell of a lot in common.

>>52459013
>>tfw when you realize Alexstrasza forgave the orcs for what they did to her personally during the Second War but somehow decided she needed to kill Malygos

Technically she said that she would forgive them if they truly recognized it and asked her for forgiveness.

She'd still slap some Orcs if they tried to get her again.

>>52455497
Nothing wrong with that honey ~

>>52459152
>StarCraft 1 and Warcraft 3. Arthas' and Kerrigan's storylines have a hell of a lot in common.

???

Like? Im not seeing that many similarities, Kerrigan was betrayed and enslaved by the Overmind and later in BW became the Queen Bitch of the Universe. Arthas just became so zealous to find a cure he just was cursed by the whispers of Ner'Zhul and betrayed everyone around him, its the opposite of Kerrigan.

>>52459182
I'll be a tranny just stop bullying me

>>52459103
>wowshit doing damage control
no thanks

>>52449258
>Orcs demonstrably had a bunch of level-headed folks around that warranted the trust Jaina gave them

Only such ORK was raised as a slave amongst humans meeting his kin almost adult. When he tried to raise kid of his late friend, make him proud again, he fed him all the stories of honor and glory of the warrior but failed to teach him all other things he learned as a kid, arguably human things.
And then he made him warchief and piesed out.

>>52459275
I hate wow, i also hate using dumb tactics to troll. There's not effort in it, and really you just come off as an ass with too much time.

But arn't we all~

>>52459337
Um, sweetie that's where you're wrong. Warcraft has always been garbage even if you (rightfully) hate wow

>>52449891

You know, aside from the regular bandits and jerks roaming the countryside, I haven't seen too many jerky Orsimer.

Old Orc running around in the wilderness? Oh, he asks you politely if you will fight him to the death so he can go to Orc heaven before he gets too old to fight his way into Orc heaven.

Orc stronghold? They'd rather not let outsiders in, but if you help out some Orcs then maybe you are cool and you can visit.

Also consider that it's an Orc who is the best cook.

>>52458879
Shouldn't you be at work, Kosak?

>>52459550
Kek. Kosak's on Hearthstone now, you'll notice the story will continue to suck in spite of this.

>>52459466
That's fair hun, but the trolling is so bad it's precious. Which is the main problem.

Also scifi is just fantasy with lasers(or laser like abilities), so i don't give a fuck.

>>52459581
>sci-fi is just fantasy
10/10 meme

>>52459535
Orcs are very decisive people. If they dislike you, they kill you. If they don't, then they're polite- or as polite as they get, anyway, being a blunt sort of people.

Honestly, as long as you can avoid being killed as an outsider (and they've gotten better about that since becoming official Imperial Subjects) orsimer are pretty great.

>>52451058
That's just /tg/, partly because contrarianism is cool, and partly because the regulars here have been so overexposed to high fantasy (seeing as it's by far the most popular and prolific /tg/ setting-type) over the years that they crave something fresher.

>>52451161
Tauren are like Orcs but without any history at all and non of the violent urges that make Orcs somewhat interesting.
They're supposed to be a great and mighty society but basically had all of Kalimdor to themselves for thousands of years (Night Elves really kept to themselves) and never managed to expand out of their grassland crater.

>>52459647
Centaurs man. They fuck you up.

>>52459004
But Cairne and the Tauren haven't done jack shit. Cairne was cool but he was going to kill Garrosh for something that he didn't do

>>52459087
Anon Illidan killed him

>>52452115
>mary sue
People in-universe kind of don't like Sylvanus, and ever since WotLK, she's been getting progressively more and more eeeeviiiiil. I'd hardly call her a mary sue.
The worst part of the forsaken is that Sylvanus is the only noteworthy character in their ENTIRE race, although that's the case for most races aside from Humans/Orcs/Night Elves.

>>52458882
Yeah Garrosh was kind of interesting and had a lot of potential before they made him into Orc Hitler.
I honestly feel like blizzard was just trying to make Varian, who was otherwise the most warhungry douchebag in the story, look good in comparison.

>>52459654
The strongest centaurs are like level 15. Tauren have no excuse.
Same problem with Gnomes. Gnomeregan was taken over by hordes of level 30 lepers and troggs. Even in vanilla their faction leader at level 60 could have solo'd the entire city clean of the hostiles without dipping below 99% health.

>>52459800
What I think they should have done is have Garrosh and Varian just keep retaliating against each other. Just "I only invaded Ashenvale because the Alliance invaded the Barrens." And shit like that. Make it in Pandaria they both get their collective shit together because of the Sha or something. I don't know.

I only think Warchief Garrosh got retarded in Pandaria

>>52459844
I would have been fine if Varian and Garrosh steadily escalated conflict by butting heads together.
Unfortunately as soon as Garrosh assumes the mantle of warchief he immediately launches into full power-hungry warmonger mode, it ends up being completely unbelievable. I refuse to believe that someone who apprentice'd under Thrall for years wouldn't even attempt to reign in his aggressive nature at all.

>>52459800
>trying to

Varian got shilled so fucking hard. He had an entire comic about how he was the greatest person ever.

>>52459876
He didn't really apprentice under Thrall, the dude was raised on the stories of The Old Horde. Y'know the dudes who just took what they needed to survive. If people had to die to provide for the horde then so be it.

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>>52459337
>>52459466
>>52459581
STOP TALKING LIKE MMO ERP WHORES
REEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>52458939

I've noticed that, unfortunately. Even when you provide direct evidence that debunks their claims, they'll still shitpost while pretending not to have seen your post refuting them.

>Alliance spends months funneling funds into the rebel Horde and making covert actions against Garrosh
>Orgrimmar has fallen
>Alliance forces march into the city while civil war takes the streets and orcs kill each other
>rebel Horde leaders are battered and bruised under the capital
>Garrosh, his chain of command, and superweapons are all down
>Varian holds all the cards, can literally decide the fate of the Horde
>fucking leaves after they promise to never do this shit again
>doesn't ask for Sylvanus' head on a pike
>doesn't even ask for the land Garrosh had conquered back
>doesn't consult the rest of the leaders at all
>just leaves
What did they mean by this?

>>52460020
Varian couldn't dismantle the Horde.

Varian was a FUCKING PUSSY.

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>>52460033

>>52458799
The Overmind had this sort of alien morality I could really get behind, and Kerrigan's arc was compelling, even if it did ultimately all just boil down "she's doing it because she's a bitch." WC1 + 2 Orcs are pretty generic bad guys, so the noble savage bullshit didn't really trample over much imo.

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>>52459876
>>52459916
I feel like Garrosh shouldn't be as war hungry as he is. On Draenor the dude moped around because he was afraid that he'd be a terrible leader and that he'd lead his people to doom like his father. Then Thrall encourages him to be more like his father because he was fucking amazing. So he tries to be more like daddy in Northrend and Saurfang is telling him to knock that shit out because Papa Hellscream wasn't perfect.

I feel it would have been cool if Garrosh's arc was realizing he's not his father. He realizes everything's he's done was to impress others. He lead the mag'har to satisfy Grandma. He went to war in Northrend to try to live up to the stories of the old horde. He becomes Warchief because he's told to. I think Garrosh's time as Warchief maybe should have him start like his warmonger because that's how he thinks what would make the Horde happy/great but realizes it's causing more harm than good for them. By the end of it, he learns to mellow out a little but he's still ready to throw down against any Alliance pig if they dare threaten his Horde.

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>>52455583
I thought it was a human who opened the portal and let them in?

Also, Blood Elves did nothing wrong.

>>52460386
>human who opened the portal and let them in?
Who was possessed by Satan

>>52460441

>we humans is good boys, we dindu nuffin

>>52460020
If you think about it, if Varian did go through with it and dismantled the Horde, there would be no more war and the perennial threat of the Orcs rallying whatever misfits they have to threaten civilization would be gone.

You can say that humans are arrogant dicks of the settings, but by gods they had the chance to set the world right. Who knows, with Horde gone, there would be nothing stopping Alliance from rolling over the remaining undead and liberating Lordaeron.

>>52461009
Lordaeron would be a lost cause by that point since Calia doesn't want to even try to reclaim it

>>52459235
>Champion of humans and goodness is corrupted by the evil, unstoppable, mindless, countless, force the Champion was originally fighting against. They become the new champion of evil and go on to be Humanity's greatest threat.

>>52461064
I'm sure as hell that if the opportunity arose and popular support was strong enough, she would feel duty-bound to go through with it. A lot of Alliance factions are set on retaking the North and Sylvanas was on the ropes from the friggin' start.

The whole narrative of WoW seems to boil down to inventing excuses for why shouldn't Alliance have finished off everyone already.

>>52461126
What?
Kerrigan was the chief assassin of a terrorist organisation. How is that in any way a "champion of humans and goodness."

>>52458973
It has to be, because the DK storylines is buttfucking retarded.
They send you to Light's Hope chapel AGAIN to ressurect the dude who kicked your asses superhard last time you were there. Mograine was even there and he says nothing like "Oh remember last time we were here and got our shit kicked in?". Heck, you get sent there by Bolvar, who, at the end of Wrath of the Lich King specifically wanted to spare Tirion the eternal torment of undeath and chose to become the Lich King himself, but that's more than one expac in the past, so who cares

>>52461126
>force the Champion was originally fighting against.

Kerrigan isnt a champion or some paragon of goodness and the Terran campaign has like two levels fighting the Zerg. That comparison would be better if she had become a Confederate because thats what shes fighting against.

>>52461519
Actually, it was all a ruse to give Mograine a chance to prove his worth.
The Lich King never intended victory.

>>52461571
Then Mograine should have proven his worth by telling everyone how colossaly stupid that idea is.

When does Bolvar even reveal this?

>>52447391
What part of the chosen of the fucking pariah god do you not understand?

>>52461592
During the aftermath of it all, as Mograine is raised to be the fourth horseman.
Willingness to sacrifice anyone, and himself for victory. Willingness to obey without doubt.
The mission was meant to find out if Mograine truly had those qualities.

>>52461413
>>52461566
>>52461126

Some people confuse 'protagonist' with 'hero' of the setting' way to often.

Arthas was a hero, a good man doing good things for good reasons, then he went to far

Kerrigan is a protagonist, the focus of the story who sacrificed herself to save a dude she liked.

Arthus gave into the power talking to him and just 'lolok i'm evils'

Kerrigan was fully enslaved by the evil, stood up, and kicked its ass become queen bitch of the zerg

Arthus sat in a chair, frozen, commanding legions of useless undead

Kerrigan goes around murderfucking people.

The similarities are astounding.

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>>52457669
>fuck you maiev stop showing evryone my fuckin deals with demons

>>52461615
And for the next part of the campaign, you go and kill some storm dragons to turn into zombie dragons to ride while sieging the demons, then go and genocide 99% of the remaining red dragons, and complete the deal with going to the furthest north of Northrend and raising a red dragon onto undeath.

Death Knights are undeniably evil by 7.2

>>52447410
actually, the alliance voted on what to do with the orcs after wc2.
Varian voted to let the orcs stay in camps thus breaking the alliance.

>>52461620
>Kerrigan is a protagonist, the focus of the story who sacrificed herself to save a dude she liked.

Not really, Raynor and the Magistrate are the protagonists of the campaign and Kerrigan isnt a martyr, shes left to die because she is no longer useful to Mengsk.

>>52461809
This is also true.

But the point still stands Kerrigan =/= Arthus.

>>52458182
Well, what the fuck isn't a descendant of the night elves in Warcraft?

Regular elves used to be night elves, trolls used to be night elves, naga used to be night elves, satyrs used to be night elves...

There's probably more.

>>52458256
Baine?!

>>52461839
>trolls used to be night elves

Isn't that the other way around?

>>52458114
>owning up to their mistakes

No, they repeat the same mistakes again and again and will keep doing it, either until they finally become extinct or drive everything around them to extinction and blow up the last planet they ended up on, floating on chunks of earth through the nether, forever.

>>52461927
Possibly. I only half-remember the Warcraft RPG page about the subject.

>>52461992
Orcs are stupid niggers in warcraft universe.

>>52461927
>>52461839
It is.
Night Elves are the descendants of the Dark Trolls, who found the well of Eternity, and grew dependent on it.
The Night Elves mutated further into High Elves (continued use of the Well of Eternity, and the Sunwell), and Naga (Old Gods).

>>52462038
Took you long enough to appear, /pol/.

>>52462062
Sorry i'm late.

>>52462104
It's fine, as long as you appear the world of 4chan remains in the same balance as always:

Nothing but spectrum ends in opinions and the other end is retarded from both ends.

>>52462117
True, friendo...

>>52449531
WotC are the only ones who care about shitty realms

>>52458665
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Wc-jsKgxJs
I would have loved this kind of Warchief. He was thrust into the position without wanting it or any of the preparation or experience necessary for it. All he has are morals and those around him. He knows never to betray his own way but to always learn from those around him. To grow into a Warchief rather than start as one.
>On this day, I learn from you
Perfect defining quote.

>>52461620
Both of them were good people fighting for what they thought was right (Kerrigan was definitely the most idealistic of the Sons of Korhal).

Both ended up using questionable means that ended up damning them (Arthas with Frostmourne, Kerrigan going along with using the psychic emitter on Tarsonis).

Both were turned into lieutenants of their respective armies of doom.

Both saw the control over them weaken, but doubled down on their selected path instead of seeking redemption.

Both crushed desperate alliances formed to defeat them and ascended to undisputed leadership of their factions, leaving them the most powerful forces of their respective settings.

Both promptly went into hibernation.

>>52462474
>Both of them were good people fighting for what they thought was right (Kerrigan was definitely the most idealistic of the Sons of Korhal).
Kerrigan was only idealistic in that she wanted vengeance for what happened to her during the Ghost training.
>Both ended up using questionable means that ended up damning them (Arthas with Frostmourne, Kerrigan going along with using the psychic emitter on Tarsonis).
Kerrigan didn't use the Psi Emitter. Mengsk did. Kerrigan was very much against that, and was planning rebellion for that very act. That's why she was left behind.
>Both were turned into lieutenants of their respective armies of doom.
Agreed.
>Both saw the control over them weaken, but doubled down on their selected path instead of seeking redemption.
The Lich King didn't lose control over Arthas. He lost control over Sylvanas (and many others). Arthas never got freed, though.
>Both crushed desperate alliances formed to defeat them and ascended to undisputed leadership of their factions, leaving them the most powerful forces of their respective settings.
The Scourge were never the most powerful. The Old Gods, Elemental Lords, Titans, and the Legion all outstrip them.
>Both promptly went into hibernation.
Kerrigan wanted to know what was going to happen next. And it wasn't exactly hibernation, she sprung into action the moment the Artifacts were unearthed.
Arthas kept up his campaign of scourging. He kept the pressure on Lordaeron, and sent Naxxramas to support his forces in a new offensive. In the second wave, he sent the Ebon Hold. He was never inactive.

>>52448763
so it shits on Knaak's headcanon? Good.
One of the few good decisions in Cataclysm was to get rid of all of his OC characters

>>52458389
wouldn't you torture Xe'ra if you had the chance?

>>52459671
silly anon, that was just a setback

>>52461655
implying the dragons do not deserve their shit for being terrible caretakers of the world
>Odyn was right

>>52462633
Rhonin didn't die until MoP, though.

>>52462904
Better late than never

>>52447090
What is the Elder Scrolls

>>52462957
A series no one cares about, apparently

>>52461992

Garrosh wasn't a repeat of past behavior, nor was he a mistake. Garrosh did nothing wrong.

>>52463057
Except for everything he did wrong or evil.

>>52462533
>Kerrigan was only idealistic in that she wanted vengeance for what happened to her during the Ghost training.
Well okay, maybe idealistic is a strong word, especially since Starcraft is a lot more cynical than Warcraft. However, she seemed to genuinely think that bringing down the Confederacy was a necessary thing, as opposed to Mengsk who just wanted an empire of his own.

>Kerrigan didn't use the Psi Emitter. Mengsk did. Kerrigan was very much against that, and was planning rebellion for that very act. That's why she was left behind.
She did plant the psi emitter on Antiga. And while she didn't agree with their use on Tarsonis, she still stood by Arcturus and defended the zerg against the protoss. Which isn't to say that Mengsk doesn't bear most of the blame, but still.

>The Lich King didn't lose control over Arthas. He lost control over Sylvanas (and many others). Arthas never got freed, though.
We-ell, Arthas had a lot more freedom from the start. After all, he chose to pick up Frostmourne, and didn't actually know who the Lich King was until Kel'thuzad explained it to him. I'll grant you it's hard to know exactly how far the influence went, but Arthas did lose most of his powers as it went on.

>The Scourge were never the most powerful. The Old Gods, Elemental Lords, Titans, and the Legion all outstrip them.
I should have specified, they were the most powerful force on Azeroth. The Old Gods and the elementals had been shitstomped by the Titans long ago. Them being a huge threat is actually a mild retcon for Cataclysm, before that they were a fringe cult, and the only thing that made them a real threat were the Silithid (and even then, their entire force was about on par with ONE Scourge offensive). Ragnaros' main force was a gang of dwarves who didn't even have control of their own mountain, and he was the most active of the Elemental Lords. The Titans had fucked off long ago, and the Legion had just been banished.

>Live in a world constantly under assault by black orcs, giant fire elementals, black Dragons, giant insect cultists, the undead, red orcs, mermen cultists, Elf junkies, demons, more Elf junkies, the undead again, more old gods, the undead a third time, then a fourth time, a bigger black dragon taking up with the big fire elemental AND more faceless old gods, walking emotions, a brown Orc,b the same brown Orc with even more brown orcs, demons again, and finally a fucking boatload of demons
>Still have time to fight your erstwhile allies who live on the opposite side of the fucking planet for no reason
WoW lore is dumb

>>52458256
Wasn't actually part of the Horde till after Garrosh was in charge.
>>52458479
And the weird thing is in one of the "Possible visions of the future" in a short Story Gallywix undermines Orc Hitler and nearly beats him to death with repeated headbutts, it's almost enough to forgive his origin.

>>52458378
I feel really bad for Vol'jin, gets Warchief, but the players leave the fucking planet and only see him once, then he dies to a trumped up Felguard.

>>52464343
Thank you

>>52458393
That was one of the less-awful parts of Cataclysm you don't quite tell him none of it was his fault just that he's got more important shit to do than mope.

And of course you convince him of this by beating up enemies inside his mind.
>>52458795
And then he fucking Retired.

Metzen wasn't GREAT but he's damn well better than Kossak.

>>52458887
That isn't what happened at all. Jaina saw glimpses of other worlds/timelines where Theramore DIDN'T explode, effectively rubbing in how badly fucked she got by showing her what could have been,

why's everyone hating on wc3 orcs? they're not "standard" orcs but that's not the point OP is making, i think their lore is cool

>>52465206
Because the narrative presents them in a disingenuous way. It shows them constantly being horrible genocidal assholes over and over, but tells you that actually they're just misunderstood.

Their lore is schizophrenic as fuck.

>>52465519
That comes from a varied writing staff that can't decide what they want or remember what they wanted yesterday.

>>52465519
It really comes down to the writers wanting different things out of them. I'd say that in the period from Warcraft 3 to Burning Crusade the orcs were written more or less sensibly within the noble savage niche. Most of them acknowledged their crimes and were set on moving past them (with the Warsong clan being the sole exception).

The shift started in Wrath. I'm not sure if it was an actual change of writers, or if it was because the Warsong clan was the main orcish presence there, but the orcs in Northrend were retardedly aggressive towards the Alliance above and beyond anything since Warcraft 2, with he most extreme being the Broken Front. Which is odd, because the Borean Tundra is also the only place we've seen the Alliance and Horde meet diplomatically to exchange prisoners of war.

And after that we got Kosak and Cataclysm, and we all know how that went.

>>52466479
pretty much this.
A huge number of hordefans came during that era from wc3 to TBC because they were the underdogs and were far more closely bonded and helping each other.

>>52455761
THIS.

I liked their interpretation in WCIII. They weren't evil, but also didn't hide the fact that they did some nasty stuff in the past, hence the whole atonement part on them and why Thrall was trying to refoge them into something that would be more than savage and not like how they were in the previous two WCs.

Then WoW came, they got the creators' pet status, got turned into fucking dindus and everything went to fuck itself.

And not just the Orcs, the other Horde races got screwed over.

OH, and Forsaken and Blood Elves should've never been part of the Horde.

>>52460140
I wanted Garrosh to be somewhat a combination of Grom Hellscream + being a jerk with a heart of gold who starts out as a hot-blooded fighter, but as time passes he would cool down and learn from his mistakes.

BUT NOPE, THEY HAD TO MAKE HIM ORC HITLER.

I feel like people forget that the reason that WC3 and WoW orcs are different from WC1 and 2 orcs is because the Horde was made up only of the orcs who were willing to follow Thrall over the ocean.

There WERE WC1-2 orcs in 3 and WoW, they were those guys Arthas and the Scourge slaughtered, Archimonde exterminated, and the few survivors of which went on to live in Blackrock Mountain in irrelevancy.

>>52466479
>>52466614
Yeah, Kossak started writing in Wrath, and became head writer in the Kossaklysm.

>>52460441
To be fair, his possession was largely his mother fucking up.

It's weird that I think Legion's story makes the most sense because the Alliance and Horde are treated as almost completely irrelevant bickering bureaucracies while the actual backbone of their Armies all reorganized into the various neutral, pre-existing class orders.

And no I don't think it was intentional.

>>52447090
Elder Scrolls

File: 1477534038020.jpg (98KB, 352x360px) Image search: [Google]

98KB, 352x360px

>>52447707
>elfes

>>52466772
I'm glad he at least called out Thrall on his fuck ups before dying

>>52468562
And sadly he only.

Cataclysm, MoP and WoD were really, really bad.

Is Legion worse? Or does it have some redeeming qualities?

The dumbest thing about warcraft orcs is that, along with the Draenei and Night Elves, they should be a race to realize what a fucking ridiculously huge threat the Legion is and be particularly motivated in their preparations for an invasion they knew was coming for nearly twenty years.

Basically every important Orc has had some personal experience with the Legion, and it's weird that they never show any particular enmity toward the force that enslaved them, destroyed their homeworld, drove them to commit traumatizing war crimes, and is shown to have the capacity to reenslave them again.

>>52468645
Writing lad. The writers fuck them all up.

>>52468623
I don;'t like legion because the stakes are too high. the faction war is even more retarded, and if you get immersed you feel GUILTY for exploring instead of focusing entirely on the war effort. I like to get immersed (As much as possible) AND explore. Legion makes them mutually exclusive.

>>52468771
At this point WoW isn't worth it anymore.

If they added at the very start a third, neutral major faction where everyone from Horde and Alliance can go independent, then the game would've been much more better.

I mean, giving the option of going full FUCK YOU and skedaddling to adventure instead of even dealing with the retardedness of the conflicts that are self-destructive instead of focusing on fighting the Burning Legion or other greater evil.

>>52468771
This sort of thing, on top of the artifacts, are making me wonder what they're going to follow Legion with. The serial escalation is getting ridiculous.

>>52468771
>>52468933
>>52468992
I gotta read that book that Metzen and Greg "Gargoyles" Weisman made together. It seems like it will capture the spirit of wandering Ashenvale/Teldrasil or Stranglethorn for the first time.

>>52468771
>I don;'t like legion because the stakes are too high.
The stakes are meaningless at this point. Blizzard keeps writing the same story over and over again. Bigger badder eviler guys show up and they were behind everything all along! It's fine and intriguing when you pull it once but senseless and boring when it's literally every time. It also produces immense power creep to the point where you simply can't give a fuck anymore. There's a world raping event on Azeroth every other Tuesday. Players are all walking WMDs at this point.

What's worse, this crap has infected all their other games too. Here comes Space Satan and he's secretly behind it all. Oh and this bitch gets to absorb Zerg powers like it's the Highlander movie or something.

Diablo died? Well here's super duper Diablo. You killed him? Here's fucking Death itself imbued with the power of super duper Diablo.

This company needs to fire its entire creative department.

>>52458799
Their constant retcons are what make Warcraft and Starcraft into Comicbook fantasy and science fiction, a.k.a. Capeshit. They're retelling the same stories with minor changes to detail.

On the other hand, let's not kid ourselves: Warcraft only had an alibi plot until LotC/ Warcraft 3. Everything before that was just barely fleshed out lore so negligible that it could just as well have been replaced with any other game plot from the nineties.

I say this as a diehard warcraft fan. I love Azeroth. It doesn't change the fact it didn't really become a fully fleshed story until the third installment, and even then a lot of its canon relied on forumposts and third party novels. Only the briefest is mentioned in the manual and the game, itself. The game was being retold as it was being released.

>>52468623
Legion's story isn't just bad, it actively diminishes the older, better storylines

Legion starts off by killing off loads of heroes from previous expansions with generic demons because the idea is that those last three invasions they weren't really trying, and now they're sending the real niggas who were too busy conquering more powerful planets during the last few invasions

Every threat beforehand? Baby bullshit.
The Lich King, Deathwing, the Sha, the Old Gods, Illidan? All fucking chumps, their killers get fucking stomped by generic demons.

All the demons you ever killed are back, because demons don't die, they just get banished now.

Naturally, the fact that by this point in the story the player has canonically killed Kiljaeden and Archimonde (Twice, noless) is never addressed.

There's what should be a really good scene at the start of the expansion where all the named demons in the series show up at once, which is only slightly diminished by the metagame thought that at this point in the game your character could literally solo all of them at once.

>>52468623
Legion is Illidan dindu nuffin the expansion.

I can't wait for the next expansion Scourge to show that us killing Arthas and putting Bolvae in charge was a horrible mistake. Arthas was really preparing the world to face the Void Lords or some bullshit

>>52469738
Man, the Scourge going up against the Legion would have been fucking sick.

I sure do love how Death Knights do nothing but job to everyone so that Demon Hunters can shine as the new edgy, do-what-it-takes, unscrupulous anti-heroes

>>52469723
>All the demons you ever killed are back, because demons don't die, they just get banished now.

On the other hand you can perma-kill them in the nether...or simply kill them if you are a Demon Hunter.

But I see your point here. Seriously at this point Blizzard should've simply drop WoW, focus more on Overwatch and in the meanwhile do WarCraft IV that simply retcons WoW into an alternative dimension and retells WoW without the bullshit the MMO did.

No retarded conflicts and stories, no retarded reasons to fight, no PvP and more...BUT WE WILL NEVER GET ANY OF THIS AT ALL.

>>52469738
I liked Illidan as this sort of arrogant Byronic Hero who wanted to be recognized as a hero but every time he did something it backfired (not to mention Furion being an asshole to him).

I honestly hate what WoW did to him over the years and will hate if they fuck up Arthas at some point.

>>52447090
Faerun. Grey Orcs.

>>52469877
I liked Illidan too because of that. I'd be lying if I said I was satisfied on how he was handled in BC but honestly fuck the circle jerk he has right now

>>52469877
Demons being banished instead of killed would almost sort of work with artifact weapons in Legion if they had even thought to include a line about how artifact weapons are the only things powerful enough to kill demons for real.

But they didnt.

Like, seriously, the only fucking classes demons should even be slightly concerned about are Demon Hunter and Death Knight, because they're the only ones who can kill demons permanently between DHs spooky magic and DKs having weapons that can eat souls.

>>52469966
>fuck the circle jerk he has right now
Yeah. A somewhat similar thing Thrall got.

Liked him for being this Orc who wants to fix the Horde and purge completely any elements that connected them to the Burning Legion via rediscovered shamanism and etc.

Then he gets turned into fucking Green Jesus...seriously that killed him off for me how he was handled.

>>52470053
Agreed here. Hero Classes and Artifacts should be OP enough to slay Legion demons without the need to travel to the nether to kill them there.

But it was probably for plot convenience so to recycle plots.

>>52470222
With Thrall I was okay with him stepping down to try to fix Azeroth. He's a shaman and doesn't want the world to end up like Outland but holy shit Aggra shit on everything he stood for and he took it like a bitch.

Thrall was my warchief. Go'el is just a bitch

>>52470838
Everything would've been good if Thrall was Warchief to the death. How they made him was like making him downright screw over his very work he started since he became Warchief for the first time.

>>52463057

Garrosh did a lot of things wrong, not the least of which was eating the heart of an old god.

Like

There was a significant argument for Garrosh being an inexperienced leader growing into his role, and he did do a lot of good things, but he lost it in the end. That's objectively the case. Grommash, on the other hand, had the opposite story (it's pottery!) of doing stupid, fucked up shit and then redeeming himself in the end.

Honestly, the biggest 'problem' with orcs is Thrall, in that he refuses to see that his people are still completely meshed inside of their warlike ways. It is, I imagine, the primary reason he stepped down: he wanted to change the entire species and realized that was ridiculous, and put an Orc-ier orc in charge.

There's this weird thing people do where they assume that anyone who makes a mistake is a bad character, somehow. I have no idea where this came from.

>>52471195
But in Garrosh's case it was bad writing.

>>52447090
they're a major player race in my ERP setting :)

>>52471195
Garrosh is the fucking peak of WoW's atrocious writing

There is no way to coherently arrange Garrosh's actions into anything resembling character growth or logical progression of action.

Remember how in the same expansion pack Garrosh threw a General off a cliff for nuking a city (followed by a lengthy speech about dishonoring the Horde), and then proceeded to nuke a city immediately afterward?