/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

>>52432831

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>>52432820
>Chronicle takes us to the middle East
>Have to retrieve a stolen artifact as a favor to a prince, due to malk fucking up to begin with and it was all we could do to spare ourselves from final death.
>Edgy Malkavian faggot dominate spends his time linking up with some jihadis convincing them some white as a snow leapords asshole is the prophet reborn. Dominates an entire jihadis cell and his retainers
>Have them suicide bomb assamite lair en masse without us knowing.
>Diablerizes an elder and steals artifact
>Go back to the states. He kills the prince, keeps a broken ass artifact and keeps us from fucking him up or plotting by dominating the shit out of us any time he gets a chance.

Getting real sick of this motherfucker...

What do you think the storyteller system does well? What do you think of the does poorly? I am exploring systems outside of D&D

So how does the whole
>lol antes are a myth my dude
Camarilla thing work when you've got their childer and grandchilder running around?

And while that may work on younger vampires, Lasombra and Tzimisce were diablerized in the 15th century; surely an ancilla remembers that there used to be actual antes around

>>52433351
>What do you think the storyteller system does well?
Getting shit MOVING. I recently just had to take a break from Pathfinder. I run simple dungeon crawls, what the system is designed for, but when combat starts it just never seems to end and I'm sick of it.

>>52433156
How the fuck is he even able to do all of this?

What's your favorite style of Hunter game, and describe your favorite hunter that you've played.

>>52433684
Lots of gaslighting and it's not that hard to imagine you've got elders out there to dominate the everliving fuck out of those childe that get too curious for their own good. The camarilla needs to perpetuate this lie more than anything. They need to have the members buy into it.

>>52433684
I always thought they went with the "They are all dead now, man" route.

>>52433875
But Mithras (a 4th gen) rules Britain, and some of the founders of the Camarilla itself are pretty old (Corazon is 5th gen).

It just seems like WW wanted to play the old vs young cliche without thinking about it

>>52433156
I need to know more

>>52433684
Almost nobody in the Camarilla believes what the Camarilla are saying. In the book my group play by there is literally a Camarilla-specific FLAW saying that you actually fucking believe it.

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>>52433156
oh god i feel sorry for you

>>52434009
It's said that sufficiently talented Tremere can tell the generation of a vampire from scent alone. Now while the Tremere as a clan probably don't believe in the Camarilla's bullshit (seeing as they started out by diablerizing an Ante), there's nothing stopping one from blabbing to his lover or friends

>>52433939
Wait, are the Antes only the third generation ones?

>>52434107
Antediluvian just means before the flood, so Caine, 2nd and 3rd are all antes, but it's usually used to mean 3rd generation

>>52434088
Who the fuck would a Tremere 'blab to' about Antedeluvians existing though? Everyone and their mom either know they do/did, or know that it's a thing many kindred say and believe, so one more blabbing doesn't do anything more.

>>52434153
A story is just that; a story.

The tremere would have evidence though

>>52434127
Well, Caine is even more elusive than the 3rd Gens and, well, do WE even know what the fuck happened to the 2nd Gens?

>>52434127
It's occasionally brought-up that there are *probably* other methuselahs who should technically qualify for the term but are not generally referred to by it.

And they must be pissed, honestly.

>>52434208
Well, nearly all the stories agree that their childer killed them; the only thing that's unknown is who sired who and how many of them there were

>>52434050
>>52432656
What do you mean, splats? Legacies? There's one example Legacy in the corebook, but no other official ones. There is, however, an anon doing a pretty good job updating some of the old ones.

Also, nothing new on the sixth Watchtower, although I assume the options in the Chronicler's Guide are still valid.

>>52434186
The Tremere are the Jews of the Vampire world. Few in number, disproportionately influential, and usually distrusted- even if they are telling the truth.

>>52434208
They got nommed by the antes. It's why Cain gave them extra curses.

>>52434186
Unless you're saying they would be teaching forbidden-to-be-taught disciplines to these others, who would indeed know the truth but be extremely few, it's still just someone saying it. Nosferatu would say it in private too.

>>52433684
>Lasombra and Tzimisce
Disgraced thugs and weird perverts say they heroically triumphed over those enemies only they can defeat with their militant cult? Seems legit.

>>52434213
Jyhad explained: "Antedeluvian" being used to refer to a specific generation instead of its actual meaning of people from a time period. Discluded members angry.

>>52434234
See, that sounds like bullshit. All of the 2nd gen just got killed? Who are the 3rd gen running around with the power of a 2nd gen? There should be 2-3 extra powerful clan founders.

>>52434256
If some guy was able to guess everyone he's met age, and then he tells you that your boss is actually 120 years old, wouldn't that make you think?
>>52434271
I'm not talking about what the clans themselves say- I'm talking about the fact that both Tzimisce and Lasombra antes were still around during the medieval era, and were blatantly ruling
>>52434316
I don't know why that would be particularly strange- a childe killing his sire happens all the time, and the 2nd gen were definitely outnumbered by the 3rd

>>52434271
Lasombra is pretty much dead, but maybe wasn't diablerized. Tzimisce may have faked his death, but I prefer to believe Lugoj ate him and then went bonkers enough to decide becoming a gigantic mass of flesh was a good idea.

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>>52434242
Yeah I meant legacies, exploring the lore and more player options. Can you give me a link to the anon's work done so far? I'm curious as to what's updated and if I can use it for myself.

And what do you mean by mentioning the Chronicler's Guide? Is there info on the Sixth Watchtower there?

>>52434353
Lasombra definitely wasn't diablerized- Gratiano didn't gain a gen from it.

>>52434352
Maybe it would be enough to convince who they tell. But Tremere are both secretive and distrusted and actively forbid their members from revealing this information.

It's not a challenging revelation to uncover or something that uncorks an avalanche of change when a few people do uncover it. One group of dudes in a bar hearing it from a drunk, soon-to-be-dead Tremere could indeed have their eyes opened to this, to no real consequence. Everyone older than themselves already know it, and those within the Camarilla would probably punish them for trying to spread it. The entire Sabbat sect know it too.

>>52434352
>I don't know why that would be particularly strange- a childe killing his sire happens all the time, and the 2nd gen were definitely outnumbered by the 3rd

Do we really know of any confirmed 3rd gen that got diablerized? I mean, Lasombra didn´t. Tzimisce didn´t. Saulot didn´t. Even Capadocius diablerie was "incomplete".
I find it hard to believe the 2nd gen would be any easier to take down.

>>52434449
Honestly, why should 3rd gens even fucking know about Diablerie?

>>52434449
Note- killed =/= diablerized. Killing doesn't necessarily mean devouring his soul.

>>52434460
This too.

Noddist lore has the first case of diablerie happen by accident, when an Assamite judge was executing a toreador and accidentally ate her soul

>>52434460
Good question, actually. So, they just killed the 2nd gen and never tried to drink their blood. Possible, I guess, but still sounds weird. It gets weirder when you realise the only source old vampires had about the 2nd gen were those same 3rd gen guys.

>>52434355
>Can you give me a link to the anon's work done so far?
Sorry, didn't save it, but he tends to post and update it regularly in this thread. And sadly, my Google-fu is too weak.

>Sixth Watchtower
IIRC, there's some stuff about it in there, but it's mostly options for your game. Maybe it's an honest-to-Oracles sixth Watchtower, now surfaced because the Exarchs have somehow be weakened. Maybe there's a shift in the Supernal Realms. Maybe the categorization into Paths is flawed from the very beginning. Maybe it's an evil Abyssal Watchtower. Nothing concrete.

>>52434516
I think drinking their blood is way weirder; it's one thing to kill your parents, it's another to cannibalize him

>>52434449
Not even Brujah. Every clan gets their own mythology with a big monster dad at the end that's maybe a myth but definitely isn't and may have been destroyed but totally wasn't.

>>52434516
They have to drain all of their blood entirely and drink all of it. That's a weird thing to do if you don't know about diablerie, especially since several 3rd gens would have ganged-up to take them down - they can't share it or the process doesn't work, so they have to for some reason decide that one person should drink all of their blood to see what happens.

>>52434516
>>52434546
1) drinking vamp blood is awesome
3) Cannibalism is one of the themes of vampire
2)they had fangs

Dia would have been entirely possible. they just wouldn't have a word or even a modern taboo about it

About the clan names: when did they emerge exactly and where do they com from? I know most probably don't come from antediluvians, except maybe for Ventrue. Lasombra, Toreador and maybe Brujah are from Spanish, Nosferatu is Romanian, Tzimiskes was a Byzantine Emperor. What about the others?

>>52434624
I'm not saying it wouldn't have been possible, just that they wouldn't know of the act itself.

And it might have been for the best - the major reason they turned on their sires is because of how powerful they were. If one of their siblings had gained that power, he too would have been killed.

>>52434652
Don't think about it too hard, Gehenna itself laughs at you if you thought that Brujah was his actual name.

Then you've got bullshit where Lasombra (shadow in Spanish) is actually totally you guys just a transcription of Lau-Som-Bheu, which means profiting by knowledge" or "profiting together through domination"

Side question on the ancient vamps: Did Caine and kids start out with all their stats skills and disciplines maxed? Or did it take time to develop into the unstoppable things they became?

>>52434709
I think they actually had to practice to get as good as they got, since Tzimisce was described as meditating for long hours exploring the limits of Vicissitude

>>52434652
Cappadocian comes from Cappadocius forgetting his actual name and only remember being from Cappadocia.

>>52434709
I think it's likely Lilith taught Caine disciplines up to 5 dots before he ever had any childer, it makes sense that it would take time for these things to develop. Attributes maybe (who cares), skills unlikely (they change based on what civilization you're in after all). The antedeluvian childer were known to study things long and hard to get to where they did, like the Cappadocians backstory.

>>52434316
Not necessarily.
Absimiliard (The Nosfe Anti) Killed her sire Zillah because she scratched him slightly during the embrace. That's how he got his clan curse by Caine, being so obsessed about his looks, Caine transformed him into a hideous monster, and since then he tried to hunt down his childe by killing them to earn Caine favour again so he would eventually lift his curse.

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>>52434526
My GM says that they often go off the rails with primary universe, it's just how comfortable they are with running games.
They're also upset by the fact that you can't just choose two strong and one weak arcanum. Would it be a bit stupid/mary-sueish if we were to go all Sixth Watchtower and do it that way? In case we get something for story-time.

>>52434674
Anon eating your enemy to gain their power has been a belief from before pre history.

If anything they wouldn't understand or know it academically but they would instinctually. Hence bordering more on the sweet accident scale.

>Nodist Lore
I've always looked at Nodist lore as vague stories that might or might not have happen. The general structure of the story is there, but the details are more summary of lots of events. I remember reading in one of the Tortie books of an elder elder waking up and saying you believe what now? and then going on about the name of their clan is a reference to the Minotaur. Interesting stuff. It's all revisionist history

>>52434872
>Anon eating your enemy to gain their power has been a belief from before pre history.

In the real world.

Who's to say that in oWoD that belief didn't originate from the practice of diablerie?

And yeah I know Noddist stories are basically fairy tales, I just brought it up as an example.

Still, the lack of a 3rd gen turning into a 2nd would indicate that either they couldn't, or wouldn't, diablerize the 2nd gen

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>>52433807
St is a shit.

>>52433959
>>52433972
>After killing the fuck out of the prince, he announces the city is a caliphate. If you're not down, gtfo or get destroyed.
>Blood binds our female party member and makes her his Bride. Forces her to wear a burka and shit. Also whores her out to kine in downtime for money. He has jihadi connections up the ass but does it because he's a sick fuck.
>Each time we plot against him, we find out she's been feeding him information, so we get mindraped for the trouble or in my case, gets one step to a blood bond.
>Decides he needs to take out primogen to consolidate his rule. Forces us to be the lieutenants in his proxy wars for the control of the city.
>Decides he needs more manpower so he calls up his buddies at McJihad to bring him some hardcore Isis dudes.
>Gets told to fuck off.. At first.
>Ohthankgod.jpg
>"B-but think of the struggle and our war for the caliphate. We need this. You need this."
>"I didn't see it that way." Fucking sends him assistance. He makes them ghouls. He makes them commit stains during the day while vampires are sleeping to smoke them out.
>Ok, this needs to fucking stop. We set up some elaborate plan to lure him out into some garou den and have his ass get mangled by some furries.
>"Ok, but under the caliphate we'll let you have your forests and shit. Life is sacred and we must preserve it. Promise :3"
>The garou buy his bullshit. So whatever primogen try to come at him get a very nasty surprise. The ones that don't get burned alive or torn to shreds. He just diablerizes.
>Now a seventh generation kindred with vast wealth. The backing of garou. And a ghouled up terrorist sect behind him and an unrevealed artifact as a trump card to asspull with.
>Literally the biggest enemy in the game and yiub can't think of shit to do about it.

>>52434872
Ok, but >>52434591
It's a specific process that needs to be followed, and they can't share and have to decide on who does get to do it for some reason. Even a group of cannibals would have feasted together, come on.

>>52434809
Actually, just choosing your Superior an Inferior Arcana is also an option in the Chronicler's Guide. You might want the players to create a pseudo-Paths for their specific combination for working with the Yantra system and for flavour, but there's no reason why it would seriously unbalance the game.

>>52434107
Antes are the bastards that killed Caine's childer and want to eat everyone under him.

They're among the beefiest denizens of the oWoD setting, right under Caine & Lilith, both of whom are under Archmages. You don't fuck with them.

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>>52434994
Anon that's a misunderstanding of what diabo actually is. It's not the blood but the soul. Sure you can split the blood in his body between ten thirteen or a hundred fangs, but there is only one soul. Only one lucky fuck can drink the soul.

It's like King Cake for Mardi Gras

>>52435116
>Archmages
What makes them stronger than the god-vampires? Isn't Lilith a vampire? What about the Crone?

>>52434924
again my stance was that diabo operated on the more instinctual level because
1)Vamp blood tastes like herion+speed+cocane
2)fangs

again I can only boil it down to a few things. The younger killed the older. What gens they were only matters academically. It's like saying a god killed an older god. They're still gods. Its the basic Greek myth except blood. Chronos slaying the Titans. and in turn Zeus slaying chronos.

>>52435228
stop falling for bait

>>52435228
Lilith is more like a super vampire; she's got all their powers without their weaknesses (except needing to drink blood.)

The Crone is most likely dead

>>52434970
so at what point did you start calling them out for being masturbatory fucks?

>>52435228
>>52435268
...Lilith isn't a vampire. She gave Caine his Disciplines, that's all. She's closer to a mage, which was actually a common theory back then. A Verbena of ancient times.

>>52435376
Vampires Cucking mages from before Time
Kek

>>52434970
>announces the city is a caliphate
>Forces her to wear a burka
>The garou buy his bullshit
>Now a seventh generation kindred with vast wealth. The backing of garou. And a ghouled up terrorist sect behind him and an unrevealed artifact as a trump card to asspull with.
Punch him in the face

>>52435323
No less than three times but they think I'm being a buzzkill or some shit.

I'm actually planning to leave this game. There's nothing to be salvaged from it.

>>52435480
Honestly. I want to. I hate this kind of shit.

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>>52435419
>Neckbeard Vamp pulls his fedora over his eye and goes on six page monologue
>eating blood is so edgy, I am a woeful monster
>Mage just makes a tree explode and the splinters stake the cringey palmfucker.
>time for tea

>>52435614
Dude sounds like absolute cancer. I could only imagine the bullshit if this faggot was allowed to play mage

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>>52435704
>impotent rage

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>>52435614
Anon, is he able to read your thoughts and intentions? What are the limits of his mental domination powers? Give me everything. I'm no expert on the system and I'm no genius, but maybe everyone here can give you some ideas and advice as how to deal with him.
This shit ain't flying in the night sky no more.

>>52435480
The garou backing a vampire especially is beyond retarded, kindred to them are things that should not be on a primal level, some exceptions could be made for really high humanity virtuous individuals, but that is clearly not the case here.

>>52434970
You know the Camarilla would have sent a justicar and a fuckload of Archons down to erase him, right?

>>52434970
Sound like your ST is a retarded piece of shit.

>>52435888
The dude should also punch the ST in the face for allowing this bullshit

>>52435228
>What makes them stronger than the god-vampires
Common sense?

>>52434970
ok, sorry for a bunch of things, swedfag of old ghuard present. I played OWOD a lot so i have a couple ideas, let's see what sticks, i'vee played with a shitty ST, i've been a shitty ST. The game attracts a lot of "special" people.In my day the numero uno issue was the goth crowd monologuing, or buffy fans going on empowerment trips. I have seen a lot of this shit, from people wanting to be 3'rd gen characters and swordfighting an assamite as the sun dawns, to a werewolf with a chaingun in full swatgear chasing a coterie.

you wan't to leave? do it. This trainwreck is hard to swallow, you do you amng (or galg)

I) connections. This is TOO big, the sabbath won't like unsettled status quo being shaot on, the anarchs (being middling but still, it's a hook) REALLY hates Religion being used as a power tool, and the camarilla will wan't trip that shit faster than the ventrue went for carthage pussy. Can you do a two dot or more "boon" call? or connections?

II) That Domination is not domination, it is thaumathurgy, if the blood slave snitches on you, fair énough, can't she fucking expend willpower to free herself? Can't she ask to roll a "hat have i become check" does no one outside of the coterie give a fuck about her? can you get someone in?

III) is the ST just appeasing this person unendingly? are they BFF or someshit? or Does the ST just go with it? If so, can you get them to favor one of you to engage you more?

IV) go old man henson. Just do it. Escalate.
Roll in the mages, the hunters, a f*cking abomination. It seems like the kind of campaign that ends with seattle being swamped with revenants (old joke) game anyway.

So, how 'bout that CofD?

>>52434970
>The garou buy his bullshit.

lol wat

The Garou would literally kill the messenger on the spot.

And then use their Spiritual "Fuck You" skills to track down whoever sent said messenger, and then kill that guy too.

This is just pants-on-head retarded.

Leave the group. Try to salvage any members who are equally fed up with that bullshit, and either start a new group or find another one to join.

>>52435376
only know OWOD- it goes back and forh- remember he old "VAGUE-oooh-spoooky" book of nod supplement?

>>52436002
i agree completely

"what is the wyrm for two hundred dollars alex"

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>>52435994
same angry old swede


Get this, solve all problems.

wormwood

How do folks following the Path of Power and Voice do social stuff, ever? They've got instinct, which means they autofrenzy whenever they hit a chance to frenzy greater than their Instinct (max 5). A lot of stuff is more than 5. And while they can "ride the beast", that just directs the frenzy, you're still a psychotic murderbot.

So how do people with instinct exist in social situations without killing everyone?

>>52435917
How is it common sense for something to be so unashamedly unbalanced though?

>>52434970
>Jhadis
Now's as good a time as any for an anonymous tip to the FBI/NSA/Leopold/Technocracy

>>52436235
They're not even explicitly in the same universe.

In oMage, vampires are scary monsters that can be laid low with magic and cunning.

In oVampire, mages are hubristic but powerful mortals that must bow to blood and manipulations.

The biggest monster is always your own splat. As it should be.

In both oWoD and nWoD, balance is not a factor. Some beings are stronger than others. You can disagree with it, but that's how it goes.

>>52436325
>In oVampire, mages are hubristic but powerful mortals that must bow to blood and manipulations.

Even in Masquerade this isn't true.

>>52436365
stop being mad magecuck and quit posting gay gandalf shit. no one cares about your bait posts.

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>>52436325
>The biggest monster is always your own splat. As it should be.
In Vampire they make one thing clear. Avoid werewolves at all cost

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>>52436441
Fuck you He's glamorous and you can't stop him from picking up all the boys

I need some pointers for running a W:tF game. Every game I've been part of build down to 'murder the motherfucker and make his skull into a nifty trinket'.

I'm not expecting to turn it into a political thriller but some diversity in gameplay would be nice.

>>52436365
>>52436455
When is this not the case though? Mages and werewolves have always been above vampires in Masquerade. Werewolves eventually lose out to elders however.

>>52436455
I once had a group of shovel heads take down one --singular-- wolf. We had to firing squad it with shotguns, but it worked. Numbers win out in most combats. still won't recommend it we all nearly died

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>>52436489
If you're just going to get down on your knees and suck off Phil's brown eye. could you st least not do where everyone can see you?

>>52436489
>Werewolves eventually lose out to elders however

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BW3Ck1ITgvY

>Don't post Underworld videos

>You will trigger White Wolf

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omg can yall stop using mage as an exuse your sexually repressed feelings for you dad's hard cock. We get it you love being slammed down and pounded over and over again. BUT We're trying to play a fucking game here not watch you wack off under the table

Are the vampfags once again trying to deny that they're the weakest splat? When will they learn?

>>52436696
Holy shit shut the fuck up you incendiary cockgoblin.

Even the vampire players like me are sick of this shit.

Let it fucking alone.

Who even cares anymore.

>>52436691
Harry never wore a hat and often wore dumb as shit clothes underneath his duster, like sweats and hokey cowboy boots. He's a total doof, not an edgelord. Why do people cosplay him as one?

Does anyone have any idea as to when Hunter 2e will be out? I know in January they posted their outline and said they were in first drafts but I've no idea what that means in terms of schedule. Will it be, like, a full year, or just a few months?

If we can stop getting into autistic slap fights. I got a mechanics question.

If a Moroes uses matter 2 to veil a suit of armor he's wearing. Wouldn't that work as a suit of invisibility?

>>52436732
Never just like all the other CofD books.

>>52436741
The armor would be invisible but it would have no effect on your living form underneath. So it would just be invisible armor, not armor of invisibility.

I know this is the World of Darkness, but I really want to be a good guy? Would it be better to go the "extremist bad guy who thinks he's a good guy" route or the "morally ambiguous dude who thinks he's a bad guy" route?

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>>52436691
FUCK YOU Magecuck, Join the fucking circle Jerk already. Cross swords and suck the WHITE right off the staff

>>52436741
I'd allow it.

>>52436772
>two old fags hitting each other with phallic objects
#MMGA
Make Mage Gay Again

>>52436729
For the first four or so books I imagined he was a fat neckbeard because he always acted like one. Amused the fuck out of me.

>>52436741
It would definitely be an invisible suit of armor.

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Demons doing yo mama jokes

>>52436847
Do you know how to take pictures? Did you know a downward angle makes text harder to read? Or are you just incompetent?

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>>52436810
Get spayed MorosEmo. You're fucking wrong and we don't need your knock off vampire shit here. Next you'll be trying to steal Counterspell from Prime again

>>52436723
>Even the vampire players like me are sick of this shit.

Isn't that the point?

>>52436723
It's only ever brought up because vampfags can't let it go that vampire is not on par, in terms of power, with mage, mummy, demon or werewolf. You never see changelingfags or hunterfags complain about being bottom rung. They can't be happy that they have the most supported and relevant splat.

>>52436763
Just be a good guy then. You don't have to twist it to fit. If your ST is any good he'll put your good guy character through his paces.

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>>52436880
Vampire came first. We deserve to be pampered up the ass and beat up anyone, sorry.

>>52436855
If you're having trouble reading that then you should go see an optometrist.

>>52436855
I never said to be competent about tacking pictures.

Also, I made focus on the lower part, that was the one I wanted to highlight.

>>52436907
>focus on the lower part
Then why is the whole image blurry?

>>52436963
You should really get your eyes checked.

>>52436880
Vampires have the Antes so they can beat any of those.

>>52436982
Nah, I'm just capable of taking pictures that look like the thing I'm taking a picture of, not a less sharp blurry version.

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>tfw Vampire is the most recognized Whitewolf ever made
>tfw Without phenomenal success of Vampire there would be no mage
Get Keked

>>52436880
One vampfag spews garbage, then every magefag wanks everywhere.

Don't shift your side of the blame.

>>52436903
Doesn't mean anything, sorry.

>>52437005
3rd - 1st generation vampires don't equate to Archmages, Incarna and Celestines.

>>52437041
So Mage is the true parasite feeding off of a corpse then? Who knew.

>>52434316
There were only three Second Generation vampires recorded: Irad, Zillah and Enoch. They didn't diablerize them, they just killed them...

>>52437062
It usually goes like this
>Vamp fag makes incorrect statement or asks HOW CAN THEY DO THAT I'M TOO GAY FOR CAINE
>Mage makes proper statement about how the game works
>Vampires get butt hurt for rest of thread.

>>52434799
Poor Absimiliard. Stuck in the belly of the Leviathan at the bottom of the ocean, whining about a small scar on his face.

>>52437089
Using non canon fluff isn't making proper statement about the game mechanics anon.

Archspheres are not canon, get over it.

>>52437123
And here we have a prime example of
>>Vamp fag makes incorrect statement or asks HOW CAN THEY DO THAT I'M TOO GAY FOR CAINE

>>52437123
Masters of the Art is canon, what are you talking about?

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>>52437062
>Excepting blame
>Internet
What is this your first day? Vamp are basement dwelling pretenders to the real Kings. They evil evil pretty boy fags that deserve nothing but the hot rays of the sun. All the mages have to do is kill their fathers and over throw the company and they may have their birthright of 100 virgins in heaven.

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>>52437123
>Archspheres are not canon, get over it

wat

>>52437062
Except it's not just 1 vampfag. Every time the unnamed gets posted it's a direct result of a group of vampfags saying antes beat archfaggots
>>52437123
Bruccato said they were canon, even if he doesn't like them.

>>52437156
Bruccato didn't put them in his last iteration of Mage, this means they are not canon with the current fluff, along with the fact that he didn't like them. And the first 6 Sphere Mage was a typo.

Why are Masquerade players so fucking stupid?

What I don't get is why doesn't a vampire just diabelerize a lot of vampires and become a super vampire?

>>52437182
m20 literally addresses them as cannon and just not in m20. Just like a million other things (like sorcerers) that didn't get into the book because Brucato wasted word count on lecturing people about food choices at the table.

>>52437182
...Brucato even bothered to mention the Archspheres in M20, you misinformed bigot. They're as canon as ever.

>>52437182
So just because they aren't in M20 means they aren't canon?

>>52437182
Another example of
>Vamp fag makes incorrect statement or asks HOW CAN THEY DO THAT I'M TOO GAY FOR CAINE

>>52423372
>>52425189
>>52433526
Get KEKed

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>>52437182
Try again

>>52437219
Brucato even admits that the Spheres are more powerful than Disciplines and Gifts, lol.

You're backfiring your own argument.

>>52437251
See >>52437251 above, you moronic maggot.

Starting to see why magefags hate on vampfags so hard.

The vampfag deleted his post, LEL

Fucking destroyed.

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>>52437266
>The whole 6+ spheres concept comes from a TYPO in a manual that magefags consider to be canon.
>The Last edition of mage doesn't even include them because they are considered not canon by the original staff and actual editor of 20th mage, making them worse than fanction.
>Even if they were a thing they are draw so much UNCOUNTERABLE paradox that is basically suicide using them in any useful circumstance.
>That means that Archspheres are only useful as sand in a sandbox for children to make shapes and castles, but if the sand is ever going to leave the sandbox everything is going to crumble or to end up inside your pants.

GET KEKED MAGEKEK. your archsphere are as imaginary as Changeling get over it. Your Daddie never loved you and you'll die alone in a gay fuckbox with old man wang in your throat

>>52437331
More fine examples of
>Vamp fag makes incorrect statement or asks HOW CAN THEY DO THAT I'M TOO GAY FOR CAINE

>>52437331
The above anons literally just gave you your proof for canon whatnot. I don't know why you're still hung up about this.

>>52437229
Literally a bored father trying to make his autistic children happy.

Also, the same book Masters of the Arts states that the powers are way to dangerous to use, because they would drag unavoidable paradox to the caster.

>Woah guys I got this pretty nice weapon, I can kill everybody with it! I mean everybody, no exception! Oh yes, me included. :(

>Hello, I have this weapon, I can kill ALMOST everybody, without having to die

>MAGE SUPREMACY

Not really useful to have all this power if you cannot even use it if not in the inside realms of your imagination, this way even I can be called an Archmaster, even here in the real world.

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>>52437346
>Proof The truth means nothing to a magecuck
Just get over the fact you'll never get to play anything in person because no one wants your asshole stink anywhere near them. and you don't know the mechainics

>>52437388
>Vampfag posts two out of context sections to 'prove' something.

>>52437388
They don't give any rules for the Paradox results. Saying "Archmage just dies" is a tad bit ignorant, don't you think?

That's not how the book was written.

>>52437380
>Also, the same book Masters of the Arts states that the powers are way to dangerous to use, because they would drag unavoidable paradox to the caster.

Yeahhhh, I don't think you know what you're talking about. Archmagic incurs risk, but the super-wizards don't just go POOF from using them. That's not how the varied cruelty of Paradox works.

>>52437403
The rules about Paradox backlash are written in other books, like the core one, for example? Of course basic logic will bring you there. But it let you know that you cannot get away with it and you have to face the conseguences, one of this is instant explosion of mega death if we want to quote one of the many solutions, or to be imprisoned forever and so on.

>>52437388
I don't see any mechanics saying anything about archmages blowing up.

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Reminder that Arch-magick is hardly difficult once you actually prepare.

>image

Also not a fan of the above anons blowing Paradox backlashes out of proportion. The Arch-Spheres aren't suicidal, not by any means. They were written to be actually usable, this isn't something you can argue.

>>52437462
Why are you so retarded?

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I'm amazed by how lacking non-Ascension players are. If you don't know how the Spheres work, why bother posting your flawed arguments?

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>>52437380
>An archmage must be subtle and careful
It's not like archmages can't do shit, they have to approach is slowly or other archmages reverse their shit

>>52437084
>So Mage is the true parasite feeding off of a corpse then? Who knew.
If its dead it isn't a parasite anymore, just a carnivore of some kind. Or a fungus I guess if it isn't an animal or bug?

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Jesus Christ why are we even fighting? Mage is an Absurdist game anyways. It's mechanics are vague and non existent. You have to houserule everything, and the main conflict is a non conflict as the players don't understand timing, difficulty statistics or how paradigm and paradox work. And thus it falls as a game, because without conflict or risk why play? That's just inane masturbatory mental wank. Not to mention the 20+year battle between what is paradox inducing and what isn't.

And with the culture of 4chan being that of powergamers and oldfags with too much time on their hands, it breeds the illusion of privilege, and MeMeifaction. Intellectual adventure is non and void as nothing sticks. When in all actually non of these things matter as the only WordOfGod there is in a tabletop game is the damn GM.

It's an absurdist power fanatasy about taking down the "man" and shifting blame of why life sucks to an international conspiracy

NewWod did it better 1st and 2nd ed

>>52437522
So could I make an ointment Charm and rub it all over my hands and proceed to bitch slap the universe dead?

Being able to use the archSpheres at the snap of your fingers sounds more than overpowered to me.

Only one success needed for Artifacts is also pretty strong.

>>52437443
I surely know that the backlash (or the penalties) are various, but by logic, by using great power, you will gather MORE paradox, and more paradox means meanier conseguences. and one of this is instant death, for example, as explained in THE BASIC RULEBOOK.

>>52437467
Ok, this is literal mirror climbing you are doing right now.

Basically magefags can say "Oh yes we can do this and that!" like they can spam big bangs, I'm just saying that yes, you can do a big bang but only ONE, but then you would pretty much be screwed over forever. What a great power indeed. Any sane enough person would rather not do that. A power that just screws you up is a stupid power.

>>52437522
>Arch-Spheres are not suicidal by any means!!!

>Using them on any meaninful place will create witnesses no matter what.
>Being really powerful it means that it will gather MANY witnesses and this means a LOT of Paradox that you cannot avoid.
>A lot of Paradox means a forceful response by the Paradox itself, that you still, cannot avoid, even with the strongest Prime spells.
>This means that yes, you have the power, but using it will basically screw you over big time as long as you do any flashy effect. (And any Arch Spheres are described to be flashy, so no avoiding on this, you cannot consensus it, you cannot talk your way to it, you just screw yourself)

>But we are still more powerful!
>Ok, if you happy to say that.

>>52437628
You're wasting your metaphorical breath.

>>52437600
Reality is always counted as a witness to archsphere magic. unless it's regular magic that's not going to fly

>>52437628
>Jesus Christ why are we even fighting?

Because it's annoying when vampfags run with the assumption that the Archspheres either; A) don't exist B) are not canon C) suidical by default

This isn't a fight more so than being pestered by the ignorant.

>>52437647
I'm still waiting for your proof of suicidal results.

>>52437671
Mostly I'm typing it to keep myself sane

>>52437647
Do you honestly think mage players are going to be bothered? They have the capacity to kick Caine's ass a thousand times over. That's all they care about.

>>52437694
>Magefag confirmed not be reading the core rulebook

>>52437715
What a cop out there, buddy.

>>52437715
>magefags never do their homework which is why they got kicked out of highschool

>>52437686
Archmagic isn't suicidal, it's the apparent fanfiction of Ascension despising illiterates.

Is it risky and enormous in Paradox? Yes. Will it kill you? The odds are in favor of 'No', but it depends on the archmage.

>>52437522
So why does the universe exist when there are wizards capable of ending everything in existence by just thinking it?

>>52437704
Then go away? Not like there's really anything going on in here.

>>52437704
Half of the detrators from Archspheres are mage fans. This isn't a mage v vamp. this is a rational v irrational debate. Literate v illiterate if you will

>>52437712
Do remove the Sevenfold curse they need to use Prime 6 by their argomentation.

>Let's just not use common logic about Hierarchy and about an Omnipotent being such as God having his curse lifted out of the blue without having it put it again after -1 seconds of time (Yes, Minus One, because he is omnipotent, he can do whatever the fuck he pleases)

>Let's just not talk about using Prime 6 will alter the foundament of the universe, so on par as god wrath, and new a curse, you now also have paradox to worry about.

>>52437793
I think there's one guy in the fluff trying to get Entropy 7 or whatever to destroy the universe.

>>52437793
Because they also exist inside of it and would prefer not to kill themselves after working that long to gain said power. They also all have goals, like any actual character would. With only one of them being the Unamed, who does in fact do that.

>>52437811
The seven-fold curse is easily bypassed via other methods. You only need Prime 6 if you want to hurt him directly, which is the least common method of killing opponents for Mages.

>>52437810
both sides are on the extreme ends of things however. Archmages don't just wisp away when they use the Arch-Spheres. Likewise, mechanics are a thing.

>>52437811
The Unnamed ruined the universe in a possible future, God didn't do anything to stop it. Not-at-all.

10 dots in a specific Sphere will do that. It's effectively Omnipotence.

>>52437677
Re-read the above, page 27 of Masters of the Art. Archmages can influence the world but has to be done in a way that other archmages will not notice it and carefully enough to not incur retarded amounts of paradox

>>52437822
Tell me a scenario where a being that created the very source of your power and its boundary, and the very meaning of imagination (well that would be the angels, but always on god orders) would be bluffed by you without him recasting said curse or risking the curse retaliation on you.

>>52437858
Is this scenario canon? Is that a no?

>>52437858
God was proud that his baby boy destroyed his first universe. It was a "that's my boy" moment.

>>52437804
Why don't you go away? This point literally means nothing. It's the same thing each side says after an election. It means nothing as noone can -just- leave where they live. And it creates the false impression of not actually caring about the issue, and a cancerous Us verse them. When in fact we're all largely apart of the same tribe. Just have different Priorities

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fZZqDJXOVg

>>52437388
>Archmagic is dangerous

How does this even factor in your argument against Mage supremacy? That's like saying rocks aren't alive and thinking it's a mind-blowing revelation.

>>52437889
>Is this scenario canon? is that a no?

...The End Times books are all considered canon possible futures. So yes. 20th anniversary editions are running with the assumption that none of it happened. Yet.

>>52437866
Lul NO

>>52437388
>Therefore, in all times, in all places on Earth, these Effects must garner Paradox. Mages working countermagic against these Effects can even increase the severity of a botch

The spell is always paradox inducing on Earth. Go play in Alpha Centenary if you want your super novas

>>52437889
>lel it only takes Entropy 4, Life 4, Matter 4, Prime 6 to buttrape Caine

Gonna be honest- biggest issue I currently have with Archmasters is that they either are useless, or enforce a rather boring status quo.

It really takes away from higher end adventures when any supernatural stuff you do gets erased immediately and never happened.

Because all of those Gehenna scenarios lose a lot of tension when you know some hermit in a lab that hasn't spoken to a mortal man in 300 years in a pocket dimension will just lolnope the end of the world in between bouncing his balls off of Luna's tits.

I dislike Archmasters/Archmages because having a population of them adds nothing good to the story, and indeed actively worsens the setting.

I mean, you can argue that they negate each other, but A. unless they're all perfectly matched eventually one of them will trip up and something should have happened, B. even if they manage it perfectly, then, well, what? They're a bunch of ULTRA POWERFUL people STRONGER THAN ANYONE who do nothing literally all the time.

They're just so gratuitous and pointless.

>>52437858
Omnipotence doesn't have any limit, a mage thou has ALWAYS some limits, being one the Paradox for instance, as long as you have a limit, even a stupid one, you are not omnipotent.

Can I get a THOROUGH and SHORT rundown of the current discussion? You guys are giving me vertigo.

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>>52437897
are you going to cry because you don't understand difficulty, threshold numbers, timing or counter actions?

The last time we had a Cainve vs Archmage argument it ended up with the wizard winning and going up against God instead.

Naturally there was no conclusion, as both are too broad-and-vague individually/individuals.

It doesn't help that Masters of the Art suggested twice that an ancient Mage created the cosmos, which runs counter to God.

>>52437990
herpderpherpcaineherpantedeluviansherpderpderparchshperesderpmageherpsupremacyherpderpgodhelpdurpbetterthanyouderp

>>52438016
Ummmm, I was actually agreeing with the above half that Archmagic is difficult? It's just not a good argument to use against Masters of the Art when there are so many ways of going against the norm.

>>52437858
>God didn't do anything to stop it.

This alone causes me to question the apparent God supremacy given breadth by Masquerade players.

If God was Omnipotent, why didn't he personally confront the Archmage? Was he scared? Or did he just not care?

>>52437894
>Why don't you go away?
Because I'm just keeping this tab open while I'm doing other shit on my computer and I'm not very fazed at all by the hundredth retread of the Archspheres argument.

>It means nothing as noone can -just- leave where they live
Do you live here? In this general?

Am I being baited?

>>52438072
Mages are fragments of God and who is God to disagree with God?

>>52438072
Demon states that he doesn't care anymore.

>>52438020
God may probably be the most powerful "Mage" that ever was/is.

>>52437949
I don't like the fact that Caine is always described as a passive puppet that is just going to take the hit without having to say anything, when he has all of the Disciplines to 10, all described as "Plot Devices" in the manuals, so capable of doing everything along as it fits the theme. Why can't Caine just use Celerity to go further to the speed of light and destroy the mage with a Potency 10 fist? As the SILLIEST example.

>>52438072
Because Mages have the potential to rival God?

>>52438160
>plot device

The reason plot device doesn't work for 10-dot Disciplines is because of the examples they were given during Gehenna. They barely went above the planet in terms of scale.

Meanwhile the Arch-Spheres can already affect the entire universe at 7 dots, such as Voormas using Entropy. 10-dot Spheres were never given examples, period. This was by intent. They are "do whatever the fuck you want" levels of power. In that sense, they are more of a plot device than the former.

Defining the "plot device" Disciplines was a mistake because of this. They look so weak in comparison to non-10 dot Spheres which AREN'T plot device.

>>52438072
God isn't all he's cracked up to be in the WoD.

He's basically a deadbeat dad leaving his kids to their own devices, letting them ruin the kitchen and the living room while he sits in the den watching ESPN in his easy chair, cracking open can after can of beer.

>>52438220
Examples are examples. As long as they are plot devices, only fantasy is the limit. Being an example isn't the right argomentation to support this. I repeat, It would just need a speed of light Celerity to make Caine the victor in the scenario listed above, with that kind of Mage.

>>52438303
Considering the contingencies mages are constantly surrounded by, not to mention the hyper-sized versions used by archmages, such as Porthos; the speed of light isn't going to be the deciding factor.

If it only takes six dots in Prime to defeat Caine, there's not much he can do.

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>Vampfags have a nice little discussion about Daiblory this morning
>Magefags start shiting up the thread
wtf are magefags that insecure that the mere presence of other splatfags turns them into screeching autistic children?

>>52438348
When vampfags deny the fact that Caine isn't even 1/10th of a given Archmage, yes magefags will get insecure.

>>52438348
It's called trolling.

Also, if the anon who did all the elder-and-neonate stuff last thread is here, I laughed harder in that than I had in a while

>>52438333
Prime 6 is only there to remove his curse.
And was already stated that it would create huge paradox using it.
Also, God may just recast the curse in a time even faster than a thought, and sevenfold you anyway because you interfered, and you would have also Paradox to think of.

It's not a random given curse gave by a holy entity, but from the Almighty that straight up gave the same power you are using right now to remove it.

>>52438348
>>52438375
It's weird to me because when you read about Caine he seems very boring/low key muh bible Embrace.

Any of the Antediluvians? It's like "holy fuck they nuked a fucking city just from waking up and half the population of vampires just shit themselves and it's a big motherfucking deal".

Maybe I've been reading the wrong stuff about Caine but they make him seem like a bitch compared to his antediluvian children.

>>52438383
I, the neonate, am indeed here. I'm glad you enjoyed it- I certainly did.

>>52438413
Caine is even more mythical then them, first, second, he's actually directly met and dealt with God. Caine is surprisingly humble, and doesn't seek ascendency. He's pretty low-key because he doesn't have some vast plan to become a god like most of the Antedeluvians. He's more powerful, but also far, far less ambitious and hubristic.


... except for Ennoia, who actually succeeds in her godhood.

>>52438348
The exact moment this thread went to shit >>52435116. The very word archmage baited everyone into splatmasturbation

>>52438396
>Prime 6 is only there to remove his curse
That's not how it works. It works on any God/Divine-driven blessing/curse. The Arch-Mage could remove so much more than the seven-fold curse, such as his Disciplines.

>Paradox
The Archmage just won't care if Caine is pestering him enough.

>God
Sorry God doesn't care about Caine according to Demon and the fact that he didn't do ~anything~ to stop an Aswadim Archmage from blackening the entire universe.

Non White-Wolf playing "power level" faggot here. What's the basic tier list look like?

Mages > Vampires > Prometheans > Werewolves > Hunters?

I also saw some splats for Geist, Wraith, Mummy and Changeling - anyone willing to roughly hash them into a power level tier for me?

>>52438440
Made me think of a Brujah in the LARP I run that had the Archaic flaw, and people trying to teach him about modern stuff. It was hilarious.I enjoyed your back and forth, guys.

Also, god damn it, ebay. NOW you tell me there are Clan Pins on ebay for sale?! Rrrrrg.

>>52438440
>Ennoia
She slowly crawled into the earth to manipulate plate tectonics via Protean 10.

An archmage with Forces 7 only has to stick his staff into the ocean to do any of that.

>>52438465
God is shown to be really capricious being, and he does care when Caine is involved as shown in Gehenna.

Prime 6 would've to be casted first, and also the Mage must know what Caine is in the first place, before he just rushes to him killing him in a blink of a eye.

>>52438535
>Prime 6 would've to be casted first, and also the Mage must know what Caine is in the first place, before he just rushes to him killing him in a blink of a eye

So the Archmage wins then. Not that you even need Prime 6 to whoop Caine.

>>52438467

Mage > Demon > Vampire > Mummy (Truenaming bullshit) > Werewolves > Prometheans > Hunters

Changelings are a total crapshoot depending if they're in the deep dreaming or not and how the ST considers their ability to turn into stuff/teleport.

Hunters always gotta be last because they're the underdog for a reason. Never played Geist but afaik it was fairly low powered.

Wraith is kind of weird because they need to ascend and if they don't they lose, so their "powers" are largely pointless in relation to what they're trying to accomplish.

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>>52438467
In the New World of Darkness it looks a little like this

God Tier: Archmages
High Tier: Prepared Mage, Fresh Mummy [just woke up], Loud Demon
Mid Tier: Everyone else.
Low Tier: Vampires, Changlings, Hunters

God Tier
>Archmage

Top Tier
>Prep Mage
>Loud Demon
>Fresh Mummy

Middle Tier
>Mage
>Demon
>Sin-Eater
>Mummy
>Beast
>Werewolf
>Promethean

Lower Tier
>Changeling
>Vampire
>Surprised Mage
>Prep Hunter
>Hunter

>>52438553
he just rushes is referring he as Caine, not the Mage, but I guess we are just increasing the post number at this point.

Mind 4 and a degree in Vampire Psychology can help Caine find peace

>>52438603
Anyone with enough dots and/or luck could arguably help Caine find peace.

>>52438495
Buddy, I'm not gonna argue with you. I didn't even mention mages. Calm down.

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>>52437388
>posts argument against archmagefaggery
>"paradox only happens on earth"
>doesn't realize everyone knows this already

>>52438661
Still not as annoying as the above illiterates thinking that archmagic somehow equates to tying yourself a noose.

Three-quarters of every poster here is obsessed with power wank.

Do you guys orgasm to this? I can barely manage to post without getting drowned in mage penis and vampire ballsack.

>>52438585
>>52438587
Can a mummy even be destroyed? I thought even if they were destroyed their like khat shit still existed and somehow even if you destroyed that they turned into some superghost bullshit.

>>52438713
It's because every fucking WoD splat spends half the time telling the players how they're walking nuclear bomb gods that are better than everyone else but are also SO SAD and suffer from all the angst and no one will fill their dark soul with light. Like "Oh yeah you have all of these infinite powers but no one loves u", and when you get outside of your respective splat, you realize "Wait a minute, everyone else also has awesome powers? And their powers might be better than mine? But what about all that angst I had??"

99% of the time mixing WoD books to be same-universe results in nonsensical shit. Hunter is one of the few books you can staple on to other settings and have it not go full retard.

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>>52438072
>The Unnamed

The strongest thing ever given statistics in the Old World of Darkness.

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Archmages don't exist. They made themselves fairies so they could do anything inside their own little world. Everyone else is on earth while archmages are ShutInNEETs masturbating on their minecraft worlds. Ordering up prostitutes and pizza. They are not to be exalted but pitied trapped in the prisons of their own making.

Literally the only people that hate on archmages are vampfags butthurt that old men can kick Caine's ass into oblivion ten times over.

Grow up and get over it.

>>52438348
The answer is Yes

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Why are people so obsessed with comparisons of power?

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Wait hold on, I'm reading upthread but, is Lilith NOT a demon in this fucking game? How could that possibly be? It's a demon in every other piece of media and mythology. I just assumed it never needed to say so here.

>>52439261
She's Adam's first wife, cursed by God because reasons. Might be an ancient Verbena Archmage.

>>52439219
Gamelines are frequently written with a "big bad" you're not supposed to be able to defeat, except through plot. This puts them on an entirely different level.

When one universe contains various big bads, from different factions, people start to consider "hmmm, I wonder what would happen if one normally undefeatable enemy fought the other normally undefeatable enemy".

Without realising that ultimately they're trying to bring poorly described and improperly comparable entities who were never supposed to be directly fought int he first place, down into the purview of rules and rational comparison.

Which ends in needless, endless shitposting by magefags, and vampfags, and all others in between, when ultimately it doesn't fucking matter. Except for the fact that it's obviously Vampires>Archmasters>Universe-Creating God.

>>52439317
So is God fucking stupid or something, why do all of his curses come with tremendous powers that spiral into monstrous corruptions of an ever growing amount of people for thousands of years?

>>52439337
With the way Masters of the Art was written and just what the Unnamed accomplish during Hell on Earth, it would seem Archmages hold the potential within themselves to rival God himself.

>>52439219
It's just vampfags and magefags and the occasional hunterfag. Usually its started by vampfags but magefags continue it well after they've made their point. Changelingfags, werefags, mummyfags, wraithfags and demonfags don't care. Werefags only care about knots and boipucci

>>52439386
Yes. God is stupid, petty, abusive and uncaring in this setting.

>>52439399
>occasional hunterfag
Do people even play that one?
Can you describe how each game typically goes in a Hunter game? I'm having a hard time picturing it as being interesting.

>>52439503
What

Hunter is fucking *awesome*. How can you not imagine it being interesting at all? The players are all Hunters with their own motivations and fuck-ups that have now led them to become Hunters.

What's basically "Monday" for any vampire/mummy/promethean is basically THE most important moment in the life of a hunter. Any session of Hunter is basically a 90s action movie. You have 4 PCs trying to figure out just how in the sweet hickory fuck they're going to actually kill a vampire/werewolf and keep them down.

It's basically "Harebrained PC plans to kill a big bad : the game".

It's VERY different from other WoD titles but it's a blast.

>>52439399
I think magefags secretly hate werefags more than vampfags,

>>52439503
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkQSCxC7xC0

Basically this. Except replace "MASTER VAMPIRE" with "recently turned spawn with 1-2 dots but still just as dangerous because they're only hunters"

>OPP AMA mentions White Wolf is interested in setting up an oWoD third party materials program

That'd be one way of keeping pressure off of having to do tablwtop material beyond the core rulebook.

>>52439595
The Thyrsus waifu magefags that normally infest these threads like werefags, a little too much.

Not a single thread since mid-February has been devoid of Mage faggotry. The worst part? The magefaggots actually win every single fucking argument they start, and they ALWAYS start arguments.

At this point it's just trolling and not even relevant to anything whatsoever. I suggest just reporting them and moving on.

>>52439695

>Mid-February

Isn't that about when Aspel ascended to where ever it is contrarian internet arguers go (Twitter or some private forum probably)

>>52439695
>implying it's not vampfags baiting isn't the root of the problem

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>Grow up
Haha but why you mad? You have no other comeback for a tabletop game. Everyone knows you by now. You always use linebreak Grow up to hide the fact you're a man child hiding from the world and responsibilities
>inb4 but I have a wife and kids
and no way to prove it. with shitposting the only way to get your T score up. why not try some excursive? might get rid of your beerbelly you've had since school

>>52439399
Haha no magecuck get out. you don't have to be an adult to see what nonsense Beast: The victim blaming is

Memes don't die. they get boring and stupid. only to find resurrection with newfags till it grows old and stale. so if yall want to suck out an old geriatrics's colon into the dreamlands just kill yourself and do us all the pleasure of your absence.

>>52439737
Because I didn't give magefags their fair share of the blame when I said they're the reason it goes on for longer than it needs to right? Vampfags start it, but magefags keep it going.

>>52439737
You sound like a eurofag.

>>52439695
>The magefaggots actually win every single fucking argument they start

Probably because they actually bother to cite and validate their claims of supremacy?

Or when apparent idiots type something so obviously wrong that you go mad from it, such as that one anon above who kept spewing out molten diarrhea pertaining to the ludicrous notion that the Arch-Spheres were/are non-canon or the other (perhaps the same person?)idiot claiming them unusable because "the wizards go poof when they cast their super spells, cuz paradox". Of course the thread is going to get derailed when monkey shit like that is flung around left-and-right.

Magefags have mechanics on their side, vampfags have bias. The former will win, the later is going to get steamrolled.

>>52439808
How do vampfags start it when we're talking about random stuff in vampire and a magefag drops in and starts with the 'oh ho such children' bullshit? It spun out from a decent conversation on age, the antediluvians and the 2nd generation as it matters to vampire's narrative this time for fuck's sake.

>>52440086
You really need to read the above posts before you start labeling the vampfaggots as innocent.

>>52440086
It literally all started in this thread because someone said Lilith, Caine and archmages were the heaviest hitters in the series and vampfag asked how aren't antes stronger than archmages

>>52440109
I'm not saying they're innocent in it, but for fuck's sake, we can't have a general without someone coming in and going 'mage/archmage/whatever huehuehue', Looking upthread, for example, someone brought up God and the Unnamed as a thing.

Some of us don't give two shits. Mages are side-things in vampire games I run, for example, so God is the 'top' thing. It's not invalidating YOUR Game where an Archmage can bend over God and fuck him with a scorpion-covered spiked rake.

It's just people being assholes to be assholes. On both sides.

>>52440145
That's obviously someone stirring the shit. This is a circular discussion. A constant circular discussion, and it drowns out any actual meaningful discussion or ideas.

>>52440001
Mages would literally die, or worse, while using Arch-Spheres because they are the ones generating the most Paradox and one of the most powerful Backlashes is a Paradox Explosion, that, with so much accumulated Paradox, would deal so much Unavoidable (Because the fucking MotA book says it) damage. This isn't vampfag bias, is core ruling mixed with advanced mechanics listed in MotA, strangely when someone started quoting hit, magefags started climbing mirrors saying that in the fucking Master of the arts they weren't any rules about that, by the same reasoning there are no rules about Ante going out in the sun in their book, so they are probably immune to it.

One way to avoid it would be to use them in a realm where paradox cannot effect the mage, but as listed before, it would be like a kid playing in a sandbox. Or a normal mind having some wild imagination run in the real world.

I agree that Magefags are quite powerful, but I really hate their "neglecting" about important details, I can still remember that a couple of generals before people were wanking that mages could basically slam their dick and create infinite multiple big bangs, while using another dick of pure prime to fuck paradox in the ass, now that somebody got tired of this people shit new truths arised and arch mages are not as powerful as they were portraited before.

If nobody would've risen the discussion they would still being wanking about their paradox penetrating dicks, and I sincerely hate that.

>>52440145
Ok, but is there any actual basis for archmages being up-and-above them?

>>52440145
One of my theories would be Lilith being a Nephilim. What do you people think?

>>52440396
>Mages would literally die, or worse, while using Arch-Spheres because they are the ones generating the most Paradox and one of the most powerful Backlashes is a Paradox Explosion, that, with so much accumulated Paradox, would deal so much Unavoidable (Because the fucking MotA book says it) damage. This isn't vampfag bias, is core ruling mixed with advanced mechanics listed in MotA, strangely when someone started quoting hit, magefags started climbing mirrors saying that in the fucking Master of the arts they weren't any rules about that, by the same reasoning there are no rules about Ante going out in the sun in their book, so they are probably immune to it.
You're mentioning something everyone has acknowledge since the 90s. Only very select Arch-Mages can exist within the Consensus, this is explicit to the setting and the lore as a whole, not some great revelation. The rest of the universe Is malleable to their whims.

>I agree that Magefags are quite powerful, but I really hate their "neglecting" about important details, I can still remember that a couple of generals before people were wanking that mages could basically slam their dick and create infinite multiple big bangs, while using another dick of pure prime to fuck paradox in the ass, now that somebody got tired of this people shit new truths arised and arch mages are not as powerful as they were portraited before.
Nothing has been neglected, much of what you listed, white absolutely ridiculous and entirely nonsensical, can actually be accomplished by mixing the Arch-Spheres.

>>52440193
Which clan do you think is responsible for forcing this pattern that loops discussion? I blame the Ventrue. They want to keep everyone in the dark about what's really going on in the world.

>>52440488
That and the conceptual of her as a human who picked up sorcery/hedge wizardry after God ejected her from Eden. And then later, she perhaps became a demon...

>>52440396
>Mages would literally die, or worse, while using Arch-Spheres

No, not really. It really depends where said magics are being deployed. Within the bounds of the Consensus? Certainly, but this is rather obvious.

>arch mages are not as powerful as they were portraited before.

They really are as powerful as they are portrayed if you gimp the rules as written.

>>52440547
Vampires can't use computers like that.
It's not a rule, they're just fucking stupid.

>>52440396
Masters of the Art goes out of its way to remind the reader(s) that there are no rules for inflicting Paradox against Arch effects.

It's up to the ST. That, or use the generic rules.

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The problem isn't really xsplatfags it's specifically cainefags and archmagefags

>>52440396
>now that somebody got tired of this people shit new truths arised and arch mages are not as powerful as they were portraited before

Not a single person has ever countered the Archmage supremacists. The "truths" above meant nothing months ago, and they definitely mean nothing now.

>>52440488
>>52440566
Who knows what Lilith is at this point. Vampire? Archmage? Pagan Goddess? Demon? Some unholy mixture of the four?

>>52440714
>cainefags
The illiterate and misinformed biased shit-monkeys?

>archmagefags
The informed and citation humping shit-disturbers?

>>52440396
>wanking that mages could basically slam their dick and create infinite multiple big bangs, while using another dick of pure prime to fuck paradox in the ass

.......They can do all of that.

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>>52440769
Just reminding you that you're both fags

Werefags >= Changelingfags >>>>> Mage & Vamp fags

>>52440861
Thanks, I love you too.

>>52440581
>>52440659
How many times shall I tell that one page of the same book says that the paradox generated this way cannot be overcome? So no Prime dicks would make Paradox angrier and nastier.

Also, is Said that is impossible to act within consensus because every Arch-Sphere basically rape physics in such a way that is impossible to not leave witnesses, so the mage may use his skills only in particular realms, no escape in this one (if they would care about the conseguences, of course, otherwise they can do whatever they want)

>>52440981
Are you retarded? You type like you're retarded.

No one here is going to bother with something we all already know. The page was posted far above and is nowhere near as bad as you are suggesting.

You're making this thread worse by spewing your shit all over the board.

>>52440981
You're confusing the Consensus with the Tellurian. The former extends towards the asteroid belt, the latter is the entirety of the universe. One incurs near-suicidal levels of Paradox, the other is more minimal.

Not sure where people are getting the suicidal Paradox schtick from.

MotA pg - 76
>"There are no special rules for inflicting Paradox against Arch-Spheres."

They are as vague as ever. If the ST wants the backlash to be "You are now a fluffy pink bunny", it will happen.

The book wasn't written to be impossible to use. Let's not be nonsensical about these things, as overpowered as they are.

>>52441080
How can I confuse the two when I'm speaking only about consensus and realms scenarios.

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>>52441181
So the above idiots are wrong about archmagic being impossible to use?

>>52437388
>>52441181
>In Earth is basically suicide
>In the Tellurian you may still draw paradox (and by logic, if you are going to influence the entire universe the paradox Will be Great)
>Not even prime can do something to prevent Paradox, no matter the mastery

Are we done yet?

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>>52441292
No it's never over. magecucks can't read

ANyone have the Hunter Vigil pdf?

>>52441292
>In Earth is basically suicide
Not so fast now, a few Archmages still lurk about on Earth. It really depends on the spell in question.

>Not even prime can do something to prevent Paradox, no matter the mastery
That's not exactly what it said. Archmages of Prime can't prevent it from piling up, but they CAN remove it via Prime 9, with failure incurring even more of it.

>>52441373
It's in the paste bin at the top of this thread.

>>52441292
>You also forgot that all of this powerful magics must be deployed by using extensive rituals, so the prime6 to lift curse thing must be prepared ahead to be executed properly and it's not instant.

>>52441443
Which just makes the Archmages even more powerful by default. They can hang spells ridiculously easy whilst getting guaranteed successes.

See >>52437522

Could we do something productive for a change? Like could someone explain what Mage the Ascension 1-5 dots do? Or can we brain storm a Mage the Awakening 2E legacy or Vampire the Requiem 2E Bloobline?

>>52441443
>and it's not instant

Gee, I wonder what Wonders do?

>>52441499
*1-5 sphere dots. My phone deleted sphere for some reason.

>>52441392
>lurking equals casting now
>again with this argument distortion, not even an attorney or an actual mage would've being trying so hard
>If you use prime to mess with paradox you Will male it worse
>no anon it's just about stockpiling!!!
>implying that a prime 9 ritual to contrast paradox Will not require millenia of time of preparation
>implying that nothing would happen during that time
>implying that it would generally work based on fucking word interpretation

Disguisting.

>>52441531
Ummmmm, I'm not sure how to even respond to this.

>>52441473
No. The preparation just makes up for the incredible difficulty, but it still remain a huge task if everybody would care for the rules instead of posting dumb stories.

>>52441564
Don't. It would only prolong a needless argument.

>tfw you ran Promethean for your Friday group who are used to playing D&D/Shadowrun/rarely Call of Cthulhu

I didn't know what to expect and I was still disappointed.

>electric Frankensteins picking up and throwing cars at each other in broad daylight and giving the police who responded DDTs and suplexes into the pavement

>>52441564
Don't. He/she is a eurofag who doesn't know the shit its vomiting up. His/her entire argument is basically fanfiction at this point.

Hey quick question. If I was going to replace obtenerbration with one of the common disciplines for the Lasombra, which would fit the best?

>>52441572
It's a boon due to the massive amount of successes you can garner from the ritual.

After the ritual itself you never need to cast it again, as Charms (but when they run out?) are made in batches and Artifacts are never used up.

>>52441584
That would be you, the same kind of magefags that would just quote the "there are no rules for paradox" part of a manual while ignoring the upper text that would explains it's dangers. It's basically useless to discuss on this point, because no matter how facts are presented you would just take the most beneficial for your idiotic wanking arguments.

>>52441642
The book literally says there are no special rules for Paradox when concerning Arch-Spheres.

Are you THAT stupid? Or just retarded?

>>52441642
It's dangerous, but it doesn't have any actual rules. Argue with the writers if you don't like it.

>>52441692
Ascension isn't known for it's impeccable writing.

>>52441692
Forgive my ignorance but wouldn't you just scale up the regular paradox rules to be on the scale of shit that Arch Magic can do?

>>52441666
Would you bother to read what it says afterwards or you are going to keep this trolling for long?

>>52441626
>Prime 6 Artifact
>only one success needed
>kek
>dead Caine

>>52441732
Up to the ST, but that would be a good start. Or maybe not? Paradox for Arch-Magic could be something far more unique.

This thread is only getting worse because of the Mage-haters at this point.

>>52441692
It says "no SPECIAL rules" this means that paradox would apply as always, if not scaled up. Then it even contradict itself with the Prime thing, being literally a rule to don't make everything meaningless.

>>52441840
You're acting like a child. Stop that!

In VtM, does each skill have an associated attribute that they always combine with, or is it just based on what the situation is?

>>52441840
There is no contradiction. You can't become immune to Paradox, but you can fuck it over using Prime 9.

>>52437522
>>52441473

So If I had an artifact made using 9 Forces, I could erase the milky way galaxy by just a single success. Is there ANYTHING any one can do to stop me at that point then?

I'm fine with balance being woozy at most but this seems like bad game design.

>>52442026
Because no one really exists with Arcana/Spheres that high.

It's hypothetical nonesense.

>>52442073
They exist in Ascension, but only one has an actual write-up.

A few in Awakening have 9 dots.

>>52442073
If it was true the thread wouldn't be infested by mage supremacist.

>>52441896
It's the action that's being attempted that determines what Skill+Attribute or Skill+Discipline or Attribute+Discipline the roll is.

>>52442202

>>52441854
Yes we get it, infantilism is your fetish. Stay away from my children you sick freak

>>52442026
You're basically fucked.

>>52437191
If it's VtM, then you only get as powerful as the vampire you ate. Diablerizing those of your own generation or beyond won't do you much good.

>>52442964
You could still get disciplines and merits out of same generation diablerie, plus it being just the best high, but engulfing a soul and digesting it in your own soul is always going to be chancy even when that soul isn't any bigger and spikier than yours.

>>52437590
Poison is the only solution for Mage players.