What are /tg/s thoughts on Stars Without Number? My group is

Use Traveller's combat and chargen with SwN galaxy generation.

>>52286977

I love Traveller, been playing it for decades. I also love many of the systems found in SWN. They're both great games IMHO. I use quite a number of things from SWN in my current Trav campaigns.

SWN has an edge with current RPG players in that it is d20 derived. How SWN works is going to be more familiar to more players.

If you already know both systems, you can blend them together with ease. If you don't know both systems, you'll pick up SWN faster.

Either way you decide, you'll still be playing great games.

>>52286977
Everything that isn't based on OSR stuff is great.

Especially the sub systems for trading and generating shit.

Everything that is is.... adequate.

>>52286977
SWN is okay in my opinion. It's mixing d20 and 2d6 mechanics together that don't really mesh all that great in my opinion. The best thing that that game has spawned in my opinion is it's faction system. Now that, that is an amazing GM tool that can easily be retooled for any setting.

>>52286977
Decent system, but great subsystems, like trade (>>52289415), sector generation (>>52287052), war resolution, spacecraft fights, and so on. I suggest stealing the subsystems from SWN and bolting them onto the Traveller edition of your choice.

>>52290388
>spacecraft fights
Clarifying, I meant the ones in Skyward Steel. Only using the ones in core will get very boring for players that aren't the pilot or gunners, but work well for enemy vessels that aren't meant to be interesting.

>>52286977
Grab the mandate archives, they're free. Martial Arts KIND of sucks fat chub, in the way that it serializes some things OSR GMs might allow contextually. Combat's a little rough, in all. Stellar Heroes deals with that, though, by making the characters feel like badasses.

Spaceship combat is also rough. I haven't read through Skyward Steel yet, but I've heard good things.

Also check out the Beta archives upkept by Crawford, as they have some things which might be of interest.

Random tables for factions, star systems, aliens, ruins, trading, secret societies, etc. are all great. Mechanics for the game are alright, but nothing too interesting.

I find the psionics bland personally.

>>52289415
Random tables for procedural generation is pretty osr. Not just osr, but an important part of the genre.

Oh Have I been waiting for one of these threads.
I have a few Questions about SWN and its mechanics.

Like How to deal Damage. I know how to Hit targets but how to damage them. The Most Confusing part is this that im about to link.

"It’s worth repeating that most hit point damage represents only the gradual wearing down of a target’s stamina, resolve, and luck. Onlythe last handful of hit points represents an injury that does serious physical damage."

Now a Swords pretty strait forward 1d8+STR
Do guns add dex?

I liked the traveler system but Im not sure if its good system for what I wanted to do. And I really enjoyed SWN world building Items. But I also realize that I can bolt almost anything I want onto any other system. If you guys think Traveller is much better then SWN Ill talk it over with my players

>>52292386
Doesn't matter what we think - you and yer players need to figure that shit out for yerselves, based on what you like. Me, I neither like nor play either one, but I loot them for what is useful.
ANY system will work if it's the system you and your players enjoy

>>52292386
Guns do add Dex to damage I think. As odd that it is that is what the rules would imply. Though if you go without that it's still a perfectly functional system and adds a bit of a "boost" to melee as it's rather lacking compared to ranged options anyway.

But personally I'd just go with traveller. Yeah it's a bigger system to learn but it's better.

>>52286977
It's a mildly lame game with a bunch of OSR mechanics that are kind of charming. It is mostly fun because of lethality and relative simplicity, but the core mechanics are a fucking mess. But then so is traveller. Honestly you are best off discarding both and running something competent.

>>52287248
>>52287052
> Traveller combat

LOL

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>>52292735
No gamefights in this thread.

>>52292903
> What are /tg/s thoughts on Stars Without Number?
> someone doesn't like it
> it must be bait

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>>52293068

When it's written in a stupid and inflammatory way? Yeah.

>Your opinion

TOP LEL :^)

>>52293068
It's not the opinion, it's the phrasing, son. See>>52293139
Any game will work for OP - he's just gotta find the one he and his players enjoy.

>>52286977
Anyone in this thread know of a good place that actually has an example of Traveller 5ed Combat? I am finding it hard to understand how to implement the highly abstracted portions while still making sense in a euclidean universe.

>>52293266

You might do better asking on the CotI forums, I think there's a few people there who are into T5, the crazy bastards.

>>52293220
>>52293139
> if my opponent's argument isn't phrased in a way so as to preserve my previous feelings, it is not legitimate.

Shit I forgot this was /r/rpg. Fine, go play your goddamn hipster space game, and ignore someone who's already played it telling you that it's shit.

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Pathetic

>>52293220
I can't stand paternalist arguments.

It's a failing of yours.

>>52293321
Yeah, I am having technical issues. Hopefully they are resolved soon. I find the organization and comprehensiveness of the system to be nice, and I did find a way to convert it to tactical combat someone posted, but I want to understand part of a system before I disregard it and throw it away (if that is my choice).

I mean the whole books is practical set up to be scanned (or if PDF just printed) and used directly as GM session notes. The only issues this causes is lack of extended explanation. I found a 20 minute video that explained a lot, but I've yet to see it implemented an it confuses me.

Thanks for the recommendation though, its a good one. First place I went.

>>52292735
>something competent
What do you suggest for sci-fi games, then? Not counting Fate, Savage Worlds, or GURPS.

>>52293329
Your experience doesn't matter on an anonymous image board. Unless you can construct proper arguments and support them with evidence and factual analysis, you'll be laughed out the door. This is how it's always been here, regardless of wherever you may have migrated from.

>>52293456
two heaping piles of shit andSavage Worlds

>>52293329
Define shit. Tastes vary. What you may hate others may like. I have difficulty running and enjoying heavily narrative based games like Poison'd. Does this mean its a shit game? No, but fuck if I'll ever try to run it again. You need reasons why it is objectively shit and not just your subjective experience. Eg, its poorly balanced, or that the RAW contradicts itself, or that it lacks rules to cover important situations, or the rules break heavily from reality. That sort of stuff.

Some troll's trying to derail this thread - report and ignore him, friends.
As for systems, I like d6Space meself - very cinematic, tho, so if pulpy action's not your thing, it may not work.

>>52286977
SWN is simple and straighforward. Yes: it suffers from OSR messiness, namely that it relies on a buncha random systems that have no relation to one another.

That's not a real problem, though. "but everything isn't built around a central mechanic!" So what? There are only like 5 systems in the game, and it's not difficult to learn them all.

Plus the fluff is light enough that it gives you a context for doing something completely your own without suffering from "oh fuck, where do I start?"

And building your little corner of the universe is a fun exercise all by itself.

It's easy to learn. Give it a shot. After one session, you'll enjoy it.

>>52293478
Except none of that matters because game quality is pretty much entirely a subjective debate. But if you want to do play Stars Without Number, fine by me. You'll be playing AD&D in a sci fi setting with some guns and some decent planet-gen rules. Traveller is trying to stack stat + skill in a 2d6 mechanic which barely works, retarded range brackets with ambiguous names (not just Far, but VERY far, and even EXTREME range), loads of autistic rules, and depending on what edition you play your stats might not matter at all. The chargen is pretty good but the ideas behind it could be explained much more easily and designed much more elegantly. It does nothing unique.

>>52293568
Well if you enjoy retarded OSR shit, then go ahead and play it.

>>52293456
GURPS. Savage Worlds is crap, and there really aren't any other good sci-fi settings. Eclipse Phase has good fluff but it is shit otherwise. So are pretty much all of the Star Wars systems including the new one with the funny dice. I played it once when my FLGS got some copies and I was done after 15 minutes, it was like FATE met one of those wanky gimmick games where you roll on a table for everything and it says "gain 1 complication" and never defines what it is because vague mechanics are in vogue now.

>>52294232
gurps does have some nifty scifi support books that can be very useful - you'd have to pick and choose which you need/like - check the gurps thread.

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>>52294202
>It does nothing unique.

>>52294667
Yeah. That's a true statement. And unique and interesting mechanics are something I look for in an RPG if I am going to dump shekels into it. So no, posting a bait image does not invalidate that argument. Your game is shit. Deal. With. It.

>>52298429
If your going to claim something is shit, give an example of what is better. You're pretty obviously a troll if your not going to contribute and only going to bitch. 1/10, got me to respond.

SWN has easier books and mechanics than Traveller; and the default setting's technological background has been updated to something more recognizable to modern players.

It's not perfect, but it's much more intuitive than Traveller. Plus the tables for everything are pretty decent.

>>52298521
SWN is alright, but how is it any easier? Is that based on your assumption that the players have a background in D&D? If so I'd say that its easier for those players, but editions like Mongoose Traveller is so simple I can explain it in 20 minutes and start playing in 30.

>>52298547
>>52298521
The only thing remotely time consuming for noobs in mongoose traveller is choosing a starting class. Once you know what your doing, which doesn't take long, its one of the simplest systems out there. My only complaints about it is there is no reason not to move in combat (and a few little nitpicky things that don't affect the game basically at all, but I house rule anyways).

>>52298514

Not him, but now the goalposts are shifting. He was first asked just to provide arguments as to why it was bad. You can't then go and say "well none of that counts unless you know of something better".

>>52298640
He failed to provide enough points why traveller is bad too.

The system works quite well, at least the mongoose 1st edition one. Its actually more rules light than I would like. The only complaint I have besides wanting more detailed personal combat is some of the formatting/editing of their books leaves something to be desired.

He is basically just using OSR as some sort of catch all buzzword for badwrongfun, and not really providing any concrete examples. That being said I am mostly familiar with the Mongoose versions, so perhaps the earlier systems are worse.

A better way for him to show why all Traveller stuff is bad is to demonstrate what system does things better. I have a ton of different systems, so I am genuinely interested in what system he will name. It is likely that I will be aware of it since, there aren't that many sci-fi systems compared to other genres.

>>52298547
Better books. The baseline Traveller system is simple, but the books are a dry mess.

>>52298798
>>52298640
Lets say he is a Nova Praxis, or Eclipse Phase faggot. If he says those are better and why, then I could see what he finds wrong. Everything seems to work just fine for me. Then I could counter argument, buy showing what the other system does weak. (Eclipse phase basically doesn't have a working space combat system, and isn't the best for certain game types).

>>52298640
He stated he had a personal preference in games.
Personal preference, mind you; personal, for those of you who are slow, means Subjective, NOT Objective.
We want Objective reviews here, NOT Subjective ones. NO goal posts moved; the troll just can't into reading good.

>>52298820
That I'll agree with to some degree, but that is mitigated entirely if anyone has played before. It does make starting up a little harder, so that is a good point.

>>52298830
Actually he stated the game was shit. Not that he didn't like it. One is objective, one is subjective.

>>52286977
I like the way it handles psionics.

>>52298830
Going back he states things in seemingly objective ways, and then goes on to preface in one spot that everything is subjective. That being said, then his entire rant about it could have been summed up in the phrase 'I didn't like it', rather than go on about how crap it is when people are trying to make a recommendation to a someone trying to compare things. He starts out basically saying, that stuff is shit so you should go do something else. >>52292735

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>>52286977
I really dig Traveller, despite being relatively new to it all, but I'm really not a fan of "Imperial" sci-fi. You know, with the big monolithic yet hands-off government. I know that's definitely a personal thing.
On the SWN front I like the setting, but classes in a sci-fi game rub me the wrong way.

So basically I'm planning a game using SWN's basic setting (but Travellerised a wee bit, with M-drives and J-drives instead of Spike drives and the like), and populating the worlds I don't already have ideas for using SWN's random generators, with Travellers basic 2d6 system and Chargen. Traveller chargen is legitimately great and I'll fight anyone who says otherwise
That said, I am going a bit more towards Traveller in that there is a central government, it's just that said government is only about two subsectors big, and definitely trying to emulate/ape the Terran Mandate.

You ever hear the advice that the best way to play Traveller is to read as much of the different editions as you can and cannibalise the bits you like? Include Stars Without Number in that

>>52298844
>Actually he stated the game was shit. Not that he didn't like it. One is objective, one is subjective.
You have no idea what you're talking about. See>>52298894

>>52298961
>spoiler
I'll agree with you completely on an unconditional basis.

>>52299005
I do, but your entitled to your opinion. As I mentioned in my other post you mentioned (the second one), he does mention that everything is subjective. This seemed more like backpedaling after he realized his mistake. He started of initially saying it has some high points, but overall you'd be better of playing something else. This is a more objective statement than say "I didn't like it, and it may not be your style either. I'd recommend looking into something else." There are various strengths in each statement. The reason I demand so strict of backup for his initial statement is a lot of the systems i like fewer people play because they have a bad reputation and not because they've looked into it before. Sometimes this is partially justified by previous editions, but that doesn't excuse damning the whole system. That'd be like saying all D&D is AD&D. Look at all these charts, and THACO. You shouldn't play any D&D games because they aren't very good. See my point?

>>52298961
I haven't heard that advice about traveller before, but that is basically the direction I am going. Each version has stuff they did more to my tastes than other versions.

>>52299168
Stating that something is 'shit' is, by definition, a subjective opinion. See my point yet?

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>>52299192
Again, I'm pretty new to Travelling, but it seems to be common wisdom.
Just make sure your players trust you to be fair in your rulings, because looking up rules across 4+ books is not a fun time

But realistically, your players should trust you to be fair anyway

So how easy is it to cannibalize the different editions of traveller and SWN? Not sure how much traveller has changed over the years.

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>>52299035
I really fucking wish you safe travels anon. May the spaceways lead you to happiness and prosperity

>>52299245
No it isn't. Shit = bad.
Something is bad = Objective.
I don't like something = Subjective

>>52299296
Most of the main editions of Traveller (barring GURPS and T20(?)) are very modular, in the sense that you can swap any given subsystem out for any other subsystem.

Like Mongoose Traveller 2e's chargen and skill system, but want Classic's small ship verse?
You can literally graft the classic ship design system onto MgT2 with minimal effort.

There are a few subsystems that depend on each other, such as the aforementioned chargen and skill system, but even then it needs only a bit of adaption

To be fair, I am most familiar with both editions of Mongoose and Classic/Cepheus, and allegedly they are very compatible, even for Traveller. So I guess MegaTraveller, T4, and T5 might be slightly harder to cannibalise?

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>>52299364
>Something is bad = Objective.
L-let me stop you right there, son. J-just stahp.

>>52299663
So your going to argue that that good and bad are entirely subjective then? Everything is subjective guys! Have a bad economy? Starving to death? oh well. Bad is only subjective. Get a bad grade? Only subjective. Checkmate. Nothing is bad in the world guys, so we don't need to worry, because its all just our point of view.

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I'm not arguing anything, you're just a moron who doesn't know what objective means, that's all. Have fun with that, anon.

>>52299296
The guy who made SWN specifically made it so people can use the parts they like for other games with minimal problems.

>>52299446
TNE's probably also in the 'harder to cannibalise' basket.

GTrav's really modular, but the modularity's for GURPS and not Traveller.

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>>52292386
>>52292647

By RAW, there are no man-portable weapons that add ability score bonuses to damage. Unarmed attacks get to add your skill level to damage, which also makes it the only combat option whose damage scales with level. An unarmed combatant with 4 ranks using Kinesis Wraps is going to be hitting as hard on average as a combat shotgun. He'll be shot to pieces long before he gets to the guy, of course, but it's still pretty cool.

Mech and Starship weapons are called out specifically as adding their respective ability scores to damage, though, so there's that.

>>52299757
>Have a bad economy?
It isn't bad for everyone, dumbass.

>Starving to death?
If you're 400 pounds and just finished a 3-pound steak, I'ma say you bitching that you're starving to death is a subjective opinion.

The thing you have to remember is that opinions are always subjective. Bad and Good are subjective labels for things we like or don't like. Starving your enemies is often considered a good, even though you say "starvation bad".

Sorry if I hurt your fee-fees with this statement. Would you like me to point out a safe space?

>>52300785
But... when an Economy collapses for everyone who exists in that economy, their money goes down in value. Now, I'm not sure about you, but 1 dollarydoo = 1 dollar is objectively better than 1 dollarydoo = 0.5 dollars. And if someone is actually starving, that is an objectively negative thing for the one suffering from it, no?

Now, I'm not him, and sometimes, bad things are in fact subjective. But only an idiot would think that everything called 'bad' is ALWAYS subjective.

Hey guys just checking in after my Shift. Thanks for the words and the arguments. I do enjoy Traveller but the one time I got to play it the system scared away a player and the game effectively ended.
And While I love the Idea of becoming and intergalactic Merchant Prince that can shoot wombats out of airlocks for lols. There are some people ( my players) that dont want to put in the time and crunch. So I was looking at SWN for more of a space adventure.
Ill talk more in the morning but until then Fly Safely

It's D&D in space, and it does alright at it. The basic mechanics of the system are boring as hell though. But that's just OSR games in general.

It's still probably Kevin Crawford's best work.

Does anyone have the PDF for the full version of the core book?

>>52303081
Really dude? Nothing essential, or even all that useful is missing from the free version.

>>52303100
Mostly just for the sake of having it really.

>>52302993
>I do enjoy Traveller but the one time I got to play it the system scared away a player and the game effectively ended.

How the hell did the system do that?

What edition of Traveler is best to start as a base? Since it seems the consensus is that the best way to play it is to stick/replace systems from other editions onto the one your playing. I have literally no experience with the system so not sure what's different between them all.

>>52302745
>But... when an Economy collapses for everyone who exists in that economy, their money goes down in value.
Not quite. Economic collapse occurs when any aspect of the economy crashes in value. The housing bubble didn't crash the dollar, it crashed the value of a house.

>And if someone is actually starving, that is an objectively negative thing for the one suffering from it, no?
Depends on the person. Would you consider it an objectively negative thing if the despotic leader of a tyrannically-ruled country was starving? Or a serial rapist?

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>>52303081
Enjoy senpai

>>52305281
Yes, it is objectively bad for that person, there body does not have enough food to sustain life, therefore it is bad. Is that life worth sustaining? Idfk, but that's not what I'm arguing.

You honestly believe that NOTHING that someone would describe as 'bad' is ever objective?

>>52306006
>Yes, it is objectively bad for that person
By definition, something that is only true "for that person" is subjective.

>You honestly believe that NOTHING that someone would describe as 'bad' is ever objective?
The problem with language is that words can often be used in different contexts to have different meanings. "This lightbulb is bad" has objective value to it (an object's functionality being defined as good/working or bad/nonworking), while "cusswords are bad" has subjective value (as it references an ethical issue).

So my answer to that question depends entirely on which form of "bad" we're discussing at any given moment.

>>52304514
>What edition of Traveler is best to start as a base?

I'd say Classic. There's a copy of "The Traveller Book" in the archives above which is basically a core book for that version.

Because Classic is more "bare bones", I've always found it easier to bolt on bits & pieces I've borrowed from other versions and other games.

If your players have some RPG experience already, they may be more comfortable with MgT, the Mongoose version. It has more of the bells & whistles current players seem to believe an RPG should have.

There are two MgT versions and there's a pdf in the thread which explains the major differences between them.

Good luck and have fun playing.