>a small demon arrives at a village >villagers immediately

>after several more years, the demon has made a few friends, mostly the younger children who don't understand why they must hate and fear it
>eventually, the aging mayor decides that the demon has done nothing wrong all these years, and formally releases it, despite protests from the older villagers
>it lives at the edge of the town in a small hut, performing small tasks for the villagers in exchange for just being allowed to be left alone

>after more than a decade, the villagers have slowly grown to accept the demon
>though most are still wary, and a few still want to see it dead, they have come to respect the demon as a diligent worker that always is willing to lend a hand
>many start to refer to it as the "good demon", and try to treat it like a true member of the village
>the villagers slowly discover that the demon has a warm and friendly personality, and actually becomes rather popular due to its humility and charm
>after two decades of living with the villagers, they formally apologize for having mistreated it in the past, and welcome it into their village

>six days later, when the last villager has been caught and enslaved by the demonic army that had taken years to summon, the small demon wonders if the people "deserved" what they got, or whether it's all just an unfortunate example of terrible things happening to good people.

>>52270290
>>52270295
What is this thread about?

>>52270322
Gary Grygyx mastrubating to child murder from beyond the grave, I suppose?

Neither, the small demon always was being insidious and evil, corrupting the villagers by twisting their judgement, or at the very least is being a selfish and petty evil for the whims of the villagers.

A demon that ceases to be evil ceases to be a demon.

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It's a coincidence.

The loli demon had nothing to do with the demon army coming to the village.

>>52270322
It's a call to arms for would be paladins. Always smite first and ask questions later

Was she cute though? It's okay if she's cute

>>52271342
C'mon, /tg/'s better than lawful stupid. Have some faith.

>>52270322
Seems like a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" moral dilemma scenario that'll end with either "Why did you attack the demon? She was proof that they aren't all evil!" or "Lawl, why didn't you stop her from summoning the demon army? She OBVIOUSLY had an ulterior motive!"

>>52271889
She didn't summon the demon army, though. She just made a comment after it appeared and ransacked the village.

>>52270322
It's a thinly veiled pol immigration warning thread.

>>52271943
I'd say it's more of a warning not to try and transplant real world issues onto fantasy creatures.

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>>52270290
>>52270295
>six days later, when the last villager has been caught and enslaved by the demonic army that had taken years to summon, the small demon wonders if the people "deserved" what they got, or whether it's all just an unfortunate example of terrible things happening to good people.
remember you have to smite ALL the evil boy also pic related

>>52271906
No, it pretty clearly clearly says that the demon spent a few years quietly summoning demons to buid up an army, and after the razedis razed, it wonders if the people really deserved it or if it was a case of bad things happening to good people.

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>>52271967

>>52272553
>after the razedis razed
"after the town is razed", rather. I fucking hate when my phone decides to randomly replace and mash together words.

>>52271967
>>52272573

/tg/ complains about how Paladins are always smitebots but then you see scenarios like OP

>>52272589
Smite 'em all, let God sort them out.

If I am damned after I die for keeping the world safe so be it. It is a small price to pay to stop Innocent blood from staining the earth.

>>52272577
I thought you were trying to mix 'razed' with 'nazis' and I do admit razedis sound nasty and a lot like rabies.

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>>52272553
No, that's not clear at all. Someone spent years summoning a demon army, but the text does not indicate the demon as the culprit in any way.

>>52272767

>demon army appears from nowhere and kills the town
>but who could possibly have done this?
>it couldn't have been...the DEMON, could it?

>>52272800
now that's just racist.
I'll have you know I summoned the demons because of my succubus fetish and it got a bit out of hand.

>>52272837
>I'll have you know I summoned the demons because of my succubus fetish and it got a bit out of hand.
I'll take shit PCs say for 1000$ Alex.

>>52272800
Smitefag please go, you are a stain on everyone that plays paladins.

The greentext puts forth exactly zero evidence that the small demon is the summoner. Correlation is not causation.

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>>52271880
>Smiting on sight what is know to be a physical manifestation of evil
>lawful stupid

Look at this guy, I bet he consorts with evil beings regularly and things nothing of it. I bet this silly fuck thinks they're just "misunderstood". I'd call him a possible oathbreaker, but no one who's this big a dummy would even get to take an oath in the first place.

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>>52272876
>physical manifestation of evil

Clever. That's true, but physical manifestations of evil can be alignments other than evil. Smite Evil will still affect them, too. One of my GMs was a dick like that.

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>>52272934
>physical manifestations of evil can be alignments other than evil
Do you mean completely off the evil axis?

Wait what?

>>52272977
Evil as a subtype, etc. It's one of the ways the whole good succubus meme works.

>>52272991
But its still Evil. How is something with the subtype of Evil not Evil?

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>>52271880
WE WILL HAVE ORDER

>>52273015
Lots of ways. Various spells and artifacts. Helm of opposite alignment and stuff. It's really contrived of course and should never be considered the norm, it's more the exception.

>>52272865
You're right about that, but another phrase says that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Do you really want to take the risk?

This whole scenario is on par with accepting the true fey to move in with you.

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>>52273015

>ITT OP is a fag who wants a pointless argument starter

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>>52272977
>>52273015
It's still evil, but it's also good/lawful/chaotic whatever.

For example, because Fall-from-grace is a succubus, she has a CE aura, but she's also a LG aligned priest, giving her a LG aura. She will ping all four alignments to detect alignment spells.

Isn't DnD's alignment system just wonderful?

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>>52273164
This makes me irrationally angry.

>>52273212
In game, it highlights just how strange a nonevil demon is. It's very existence mocks the rules the universe tries to follow.

In out of universe terms, it also exposes a major flaw in DnD's conception on alignment.

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>>52273212
This is what happens when you game on DnD

Don't game on DnD, kids

>>52273273
I would smite it in game with as much prejudice and malice as possible.

Then I will smite my DM with equal prejudice and malice.

>>52273277
There's a good goddamn reason I don't play D&D anymore.

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>>52273325
>smiting an LG entity

You fall. Even if it is a dick move on the GM's part, you're still a damn paladin and should act as such.

>>52270290
not-evil demon is not a demon

>>52273391
See
>>52272611
LG or not, its a fucking daemon.

>>52273432
And you're still failing to live up to your paladin code
Enjoy your fall

>>52273408
Pretty sure it was evil.

>>52273164
She's actually LN.

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>mfw everyone just assumes small demon summoned the army

Falling right into OP's trap

>>52273687
Explain who spent years summoning the demons then.

>>52273737
The baker's daughter

>>52273498
>She's actually LN.
Just like Morte is CG, right?

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God Damnit!

I hate these threads. Demons are CE. No exceptions to that rule. If I see a demon it's going to be CE. If it has an artifact that changes it to LG it is still a demon and still CE. It would be like if I painted my face black and said I was a hood nigga. If a GM pulls this Loli good demon shit I walk from the table.

Fuck!

>>52274024
But, she's totally evil.

>>52274024
>>52274070
She's also good though

>>52274088
It doesn't matter. Just smite it.

>>52274126
But then you're attacking someone good without a just reason and you'll fall

>>52274024
Demons are not exclusive to your shitty, ancient skirmish wargame or its terrible morality mechanics.

Demons are sapient beings formed of concentrated malice. This means that, objectively speaking, they are evil. However, being sapient, they do have free will, and can thus forswear evil should it so choose. If, by its free will, a demon ceases to be evil, it also ceases to be a demon.

>>52270290
>>52270295
I'll take "things that never happened and exist only in OP's head" for 10 cents, Alex.
Because you can't sell that bullshit for more than that.

>>52270295
Fail on the villager's part to not notice a demon summoning and stopping it.

No idea if "good demon" is responsible for the summoning though, it never really says.

>>52271889
In the original moral compass of D&D atleast there was no in-between. There was only objective good and objective evil, so no it's not really any kind of trick.

Then again not everyone plays in an objective moral setting so

>>52274137
The reason is it is a demon. Demons are made to be CE. There's no morality compass for a demon unless your gm or players really want to fuck a sucubus. At the end of the day if we're talking D&D demons are always evil there's no reformation for them.

>b-b-but my loli demons.

Fuck off.

>>52274187
That's what makes me think the little girl demon wasn't responsible. Slowly building the town's trust over years, while being watched intently by everyone suspicious? Somebody would have noticed if she had a weird locked basement or wandered into the woods alone at night

>>52274278
Their ALIGNMENT is always evil, morality is a different thing.

>>52274278
>At the end of the day if we're talking D&D demons are always evil there's no reformation for them.

I'll take 5e has become subjective morality instead of objective for $500 Alex.

>>52274278
Try playing something besides D&D some time, kid.

>>52274140

But people almost universally associate "demon" with a malevolent entity. Making some steel donut setting where demons are totally good guys is just bad writing. You don't ham-fistedly change the accepted connotations of a subject and then thumb your nose at people who refuse to accept that.

I would never call a creature a demon or devil or any other kind of bogeymonster name if I didn't want my players to immediately assume it's probably evil.

>>52274140
Than don't play it?

Go play with your demon waifu in another game?

>>52274088
But only to deceive people, making her super evil.

>>52274307
I'll play what I enjoy mate.

>>52274308
1. Demons in-setting may be identified as such simply for being nonhumans who are antagonistic towards humans, without actually being intrinsically evil. Very common trope in Japanese media, for instance.

2. Gnostic theology portrays demons in a positive light because they're humanity's allies against a tyrannical demiurge. See WoD, for instance.

3. Demons are classified as demonic on religious grounds but the religion in question has no authority to make that moral claim. See Dragon Age: Origins, for instance.

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>>52274024
>No exceptions to that rule

Aside from all the exceptions to that rule, of course.

>>52274278
>>52274345
The issue in D&D is that while demons are always made of evil (due to the subtype), they can be morally good which would make attacking them for no just reason an evil act
Likewise, you can get celestials that are made of good but are morally evil

>>52274307
We are talking D&D anon, demons can be both good and evil there simultaneously, as with any outsider with a (subtype) opposite of it's alignment

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>>52274024
I love these threads because they always make the lawful stupid posters sperg out

>>52274444
>We are talking D&D anon
No, that's just you and the other whiteroom theorycrafting NARPfags. D&D does not have dominion over all forms of fantasy tropes, nor is it the 'default game'. It is a trash bin skirmish wargame with terrible mechanics and a genuinely retarded playerbase.

>>52274478
This post >>52274024 specified Chaotic Evil, which is an alignment from D&D, so yes, we are talking D&D.

>>52274513
>Demons are CE
And the point I was making is that NO, they are NOT, because demons are not some fucking subsidiary of D&D lore, they're a major part of human culture and mythology.

YOU FOOLS YOURE FALLING INTO OPs TRAP HE HAS ALL OF /tg/s PALADINS RIGHT WHERE HE WANTS US

>>52274281
This. That's what struck me about it immediately after I went "ok obviously the lolidemon did it." If the spell took all those years to complete, she couldn't possibly have done it without the villagers noticing.

Is it just me or does this story kinda feel like a /tg/ or D&D version of a lafontaine fable? Bias and all.

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>>52274627

>>52274567
>they're a major part of human culture and mythology
So?

You might hold the opinion that using the word demon to describe various non-evil spiritual entities is dumb, but people do it all the time.

There's no objectively correct portrayal of demons, only subjectively better and worse ones.

>>52273687
>That pic
MUH NIGGA

Just because someone is evil, doesn't mean they're going to kill you anon.
I know many evil people who get by in society entirely on rational self interest.

>>52270290
Why didn't they send for a paladin to sort it out?

>>52270290
>>52270295
You can conceive absolutely any story in your mind's eye, doesn't mean it has a sufficient raison d'etre.

>>52275094
Because you never know if you're going to get an actual paladin, or some fuckhead who thinks he's a paladin.

It's not like a village that doesn't have access to Detect Evil is going to have access to Detect Paladin.

>>52273487
Not him, but if the paladin code actively stops me from helping people - then I don't need it. I don't need to be a paladin to be a hero.

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>>52275662
Removing lawful good from the world is not heroic, ya donk.

>>52275662
>Helping people
>Killing someone who's good

>>52275662
>but if the paladin code actively stops me from helping people - then I don't need it
>killing a good person for no reason
>"helping people"
You're a terrible paladin and a terrible hero, too

>>52275675
>>52275709
>>52275716
Demons aren't good.

>>52275675
>lawful good

>>52275709
>someone who's good

>>52275716
>a good person

good people don't summon demon armies to enslave villagers imo

>>52275776
look, I just needed a couple succubusses, alright?
But then I wanted two girls instead of one, after that I wanted to try four, then I had eight succubi, then sixteen, then thirty two...

After a few years, before I knew it, there was a demon army.

>>52275675
>>52275709
>>52275716
Demons literally can not be good.

They can use people who are good, they can fool do gooders but they can not be good.

Even in dnd, most demons are not people who did some little bad thing in the past and got punished after death. Most demons came before reality even made itself stable to have mortals and only the worst of the worst get sent to the abyss to become demons. We are talking cannibal rapist clowns, genocidal maniacs and people who make coats out of baby skin become demons.

>>52275776
>good people don't summon demon armies to enslave villagers imo
The story doesn't give us enough evidence to decide if that was what happened or not.

I like good demons.

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>>52275889

>villagers live quietly & peacefully for decades
>the demon lives alone in a hut at the edge of town where it can perform tasks (like summoning other demons) unobserved
>one day the villagers welcome the demon into their village
>literally less than a week later they've all been enslaved by a demon army

I'm sure it was just a coincidence.

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>>52270290
>>52270295
Remember imperial citizens, purge first and ask questions never.

>>52270290
Evil always hides behind a veil of innocence.

>>52275859
>Demons literally can not be good.
>They can use people who are good, they can fool do gooders but they can not be good.
That's not true, though. >>52274361 gave examples of settings with non-evil demons, and they're a fictional creature, they are however the setting creator says they are.

In D&D specifically, it's quiet possible for demons (or any outsider) to be an alignment other that their natural one, it's just rare.

The old monster manuals used "Often X, Usually X, Always X" to describe alignments. These designations had specific chances associated with them, and even Always X was explicitly not absolute. The chances a creature that was "Always X" was something other than X were extremely small, but it was still possible.

Am I the only one that thought she escaped from the demon army?

It seems more like that's what happened.

>>52275768
>>52275859
By D&D rules they can be

>>52275936
well, yeah.
Why would they need to be accepted into the village to release the demon army?

>>52275936
>>52276501
I didn't even think of that.

She could have just hidden outside of the village in the first place if she was the summoner. Approaching the villagers was dumb and put her in danger, and wasted her time.

She can't be the summoner.

>>52270295

Allahu ackbar.

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>>52270290
>trusting daemons

>>52276567
This has all been a red herring! OP was the summoner all along! Only immense amounts of faggotry could summon an army of this size!

>>52276501
Because you have to let the evil in in cases like this. One she was accepted, boom! The spiritual doors got thrown wide open.

>>52276567
What if she needed sacrifices and was too weak to get them in any way beyond being trusted and betraying people? Or maybe it's some sort of pseudo-vampire thing where willingly inviting a demon into the village upends some sort of protection around it?

Or maybe the demon is dumb?

>>52276501
They don't. But demons have a hard on for dramatic irony.

>>52276567
Indeed. If anything, it seems more likely that the summoner was somebody who was able to escape attention because everybody was too busy watching the demon.
Surely if the ritual took several years to complete and everybody suspected she was up to something and was only kept from killing her due to there being no sign of her doing anything evil, somebody would have at some point noticed her doing something unusual and that would probably all the encouragement people needed to lynch her.

>>52276681
>But demons have a hard on for dramatic irony.
That seems more like a devil thing.

>>52270290
you could've just called a paladin to detect evil

that being said, demons as manifestation of unchangable evil are a shit-tier design choice. especialy if they can just decide to be good guys for decades before getting on with the slaughter

>>52276659
OP you Tzeentchian fucker!

>>52273773
Stats say in game she's LN.

>>52276741
>it seems more likely that the summoner was somebody who was able to escape attention because everybody was too busy watching the demon

The demon would be a distraction to keep everyone turned away from the real evil, thus being an aid to it regardless of her possible innocence. Why would somebody wait for a major distraction like this if they wanted to fuck the world over with a demon army? If they were truly determined and needed a distraction, they could make it happen by encouraging the nice little girl demon to play nice and move in with the folks. If the whole thing was a chance happening that the dickass summoner was cashing in on, then killing the demon would open an investigation and catch the culprit at best and do nothing at worst. Whether by design or coincidence, the best and safest course of action would still be killing the demon.

In the case of OP where the demon was just slowly working on bringing an evil army into the world it should be clear that there was evil at work and banishing, be it by spell or killing, or detaining the demon in some way would be very very justified but only retroactively. The problem is that you'd need some future seeing wizard or oracle to warn you about that disaster before you could act harshly unless you caught the magic at work, so the villagers were shafted, with their options being kill potentially good creature, or face potential doom. Also why does everyone assume that acting publicly lawful good is the same as being lawful good? Doing bad things with good intent isn't good, nor is doing good things with evil intent so neither a paladin smiting the demon nor the demon helping the village out while waiting for the summon to go through are not strictly pure evil or good so much as in the grey area (leaning towards evil) where paladins will still need to atone. There's a point there where if I couldn't figure out another way I'd rather fall than doom the village: if someone has to bear the weight of the sin it should be me for my failure to prevent it. It'd be a sorrowful and regretful execution.
>you will never bind the loli demon into a piece of your gear to prevent it from destroying the village while permitting it to live outside hell, and then enjoy it's upbeat company on your travels
Life can be disappointing.

>>52277612
I know, but based on her actions in game and her bio, she's probably closer to Good, just like how Morte leans Neutral because he's so permissive of an evil TNO, and Ignus leans Evil because the only thing keeping him from burning everything all the time is his respect/fear of TNO.

>>52277957
Idiot

>>52276501
>>52276567

Demons are like vampires. They have to be invited in.

>>52270290
And they did not send it to a monastery because?

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>>52270290
I prefer little demon(male).

>idiots don't know if you sacrifice two bales of hay every autumn the local demon will ensure pests avoid your fields
It's like you casuals don't even minor spirits.

>>52281300
>succubi(male)
Best kind
Well MILFubuss may be better
Vorcubuss too

>>52281540
>>succubi(male)
YOOOOOOO
sequel never ;_;

>>52277612
You can be LN and worship a LG god.

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>>52273737
The ancient evil of course. The party accidentally released him by pulling out swords to get their questions answered.

>>52271307
>A demon that ceases to be evil ceases to be a demon.

Sounds like a dumb idea. I prefer the way it is in D&D, where there's the occasional evil celestial and good fiend -- or at least lawful neutral fiend.

>>52273164

>Isn't DnD's alignment system just wonderful?

Can someone explain to me why you guys adore 3e's alignment system above all else?

>>52281745
Because everything that came after is worse. If you say otherwise, you're one of those sick 4rries.

5efags don't exist.

>>52281745
That was sarcasm, anon.

>>52270290
>>52270295
This is absolutely hot garbage. The only thing the girl did was be a demon.

If she wasn't involved in the summoning and wasn't capable of doing anything about it anyways, then she isn't at fault for anything that happens. Like, was this small village even remotely close to the initial summoning? or was it simply the last in a long line of things that had already happened?

all this hypothetical does is prove you an idiot at trying to pull a bait and switch. The little girl did nothing wrong, demon or not. The villagers had no feasible way to stop this army regardless of her presence. Race plays absolutely no role in this because it could be barbarians, drow, or any other conquering race and it would play out the exact same.

The last line adds literally fucking nothing to this.

>>52271889
See, the issue is that the answer is really simple. If you take up arms, you take up the possibility of being attacked back. That is the difference between an army and a little girl.

Even an "innocent farmer" is a threat to another if he grabs a pitchfork to use as a weapon. They cease to be "Innocent" as they have taken up arms, and in turn admits they may be attacked back. That is how combat do.

Unless the little girl literally grabbed the nearest steak knife and started stabbing fools, she remained innocent regardless of the demon armies invasion.

>>52275985
Nits make lice.

>>52271943
Cry some more, you stupid bitch. Allegory exists for a reason and this one is objectively true.

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>>52281713

>>52282508
I actually do like how 5e handled alignment detection spells, at least.

In that they don't actually detect alignment, but creatures that can be designated as made from an alignment. Undead, celestials, fiends, things like that.

Regardless of your stance on 5e as a whole, i think this was a smart move. Alignment in creatures that aren't purely an alignment shouldn't be as easy to discern as 3.5 and such make it.

>>52284220
>If she wasn't involved in the summoning
but she was

>>52284405
No. No she wasn't.

There is no indicator of where this army came from, how they were summoned, or by who.

All it says is that a demon army happened to roll by this village that had a demon girl in it. Statistically speaking, that was bound to happen at some point if a giant demon army just starts razing the land.

The little girls presence to the army and vice versa do not affect each other in terms of the hypothetical.

>>52279294
It's not like I like your argument or anything, b-baka!

>>52284444
>village goes un-invaded by demons for decades
>one day the villagers invite a demon into the village
>less than a week later they've all been enslaved by demons
come on now

>>52284259
Is your line of thought the kind that says funding a terrorist organization or inciting a riot is nonpunishable/nonpreventable by violence? I'm sure I'm a moron. If there's a way for you to dumb it down for me, I'd appreciate it.

>>52284546
The girl was there for 2 decades.

The demon army took "Years" to summon. That could be one or one hundred.

Correlation, causation, and all that.

All it proves is that the girl was there for the event to happen. In the end, she wonders if they deserved it for initially being assholes, but anyone would in that position.

Thats it. There is nothing in the hypothetical that says she was at all involved in the summoning itself. Only that she reflected on it afterward and that it happened while she was there.

>>52284558
No, rather the opposite. Once intent has been expressed to harm another, regardless of reason, the one in question cease's to be "innocent".

For example, the police are not required to protect people that are assaulting them. There's such a thing as excessive force, but they are allowed to defend themselves.

Thus, the little girl is "Innocent" in terms of the hypothetical, and the demon army is not.

What i'm saying is that race has no factor in it.

>>52284703
Well, that clears everything up. I thought it was "assisting a crime is not a crime" and it turned out to be "follow the rules of engagement," which I wholeheartedly agree with.

I have one other question. If the villagers didn't attempt to harm or subdue the demon but insisted that she didn't live with them or near them, would that be an act of evil?

>>52284983
Are we talking in the "is harboring a demon evil" sense, or do you mean that being prejudiced is evil in and of itself?

>>52284983
I'd say probably no, unless they willingly tried to kill her of exposure/starvation

>>52274024
But she wasn't good, she summoned a demon army to raze the town

>>52274024
Have you tried not playing D&D?

>>52285903
Once again, nothing in the original hypothetical says this. It says she stayed in that town for 20 years, and sometime a demon army was finished being summoned.

It says nothing of when the summoning started, where it was started, how it was done, or by who.

Only that she was in the town when the demon army rolled by. And that she reflected on their behavior after the town was razed.

>>52285903
She didn't summon it though

>>52285997
>>52285984
>being incapable of reading between the lines

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>>52270290
YOU DON'T IMPRISON DEMONS! YOU FUCKING KILL THEM!

>>52286290
sssh, cast protection from autism

>>52281713

"Duh, I like being ever so smart. I will just get free answers without ANY repercussions. I just pull out the maximum amount of swords without setting dis ting free, and I prove how smart I really am."

Evil is evil, lesser, greater, middling - makes no difference. The degree is arbitrary, the definition blurred. If I'm to choose between one evil and another, I'd rather not choose at all

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>>52287405
Alright Geralt. But that's not how the world works usually.

Pick a side, pick a Sorceress to shove your dick into, and saddle up. This is happening.

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>>52284601
>The girl was there for 2 decades.

>>52285984
>she stayed in that town for 20 years

She stayed near the town for two decades. Once the villagers actually invited her in — much like vampires' victims have to invite them into their homes — it took less than a week before the demon army invaded.

>>52288005
Demons aren't vampires though
Demons don't give a shit about being invited in

>>52274024
>Not wanting gameplay to be diverse and ever changing.

This is why DnD get's monotonous.

>>52288005
But that's not how demons work.

>>52274145
but that's what DnD is... its all in everyone's head.

>>52270290
Always CE?
https://youtu.be/0PazXYvWs4U

>>52289903
bad ending or best ending?

>>52288005
Makes perfect sense. It's how I would get a demon army into a neutral town:

Have the people admit that they were morally indebted to a being of primordial chaos, giving me the metaphysical clout to bypass mortal protections.
Then, when they actual invite my agent to be one of them (of their own free will, the idiots), the ritual is essentially complete.

An entire society subsumed by its own foolish kindness.

>>52290210
see, I would just have someone start summoning succubi and never stop.

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>>52270290
If she looks like that, she sure as hell did it. Everybody knows smug little girls are pure evil.

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>>52291756
Now that's just blatant generalization

>>52281603
She doesn't worship a god either. She's literally a priest empowered by her own enlightenment.

>>52291756
>implying suzuka-sama is anything but NG

>>52285845
That's consistent and logical. Thanks for the insight, you're a cool dude.
>>52285051
Both are good questions, but I was asking neither. Kind of. Simply being prejudiced is one thing; I was referring to acting on it. Keeping the demon away without a chance for audience or proof of innocence.

>>52295225
>She's literally a priest empowered by her own enlightenment.
She gets her powers from her firm belief in the Sensate worldview, it's not just "I'm so enlightened".

This is fine under the rules of pretty much every edition of DnD, too.

>>52275224
That's a bullshit answer

>>52272767
Demons attract more demons. It isn't something they can control, it just happens in their presence. If anything, they dislike it because it means more competition.

>>52284304
The most humorous part is, you little shits actually take yourselves seriously and, deep within you, think you have anything of value to bring to the table.

In this thread mortals learn that long-term planning skills have been taken to the next level by beings whose lifespans are virtually indefinite.
Though OP's posts don't really offer enough evidence of small demon's involvement, if we assume it, then the answer to its question is dependent on the setting. In some settings morality can be an absolute, tangible force and some classes of beings, like demons, are simply evil, no exceptions. If knowledge of the rules of this morality is adequately well known (i.e. people know Detect Evil exists), then trusting an evil being is simply stupid and the villagers paid the price for it. If the setting has grey/normal morality, then the villagers were deceived and did not deserve what befell them.

>>52295738
It's already been established that doesn't hold water. There are exceptions in settings where detect evil exists.

>>52274143
*if* they have free will. actually dnd alignment system would mean than free will in the setting does not exist. dnd is the main reason why if i was gm, there would be a lot of suicidal philosophers.

>>52284259
you just rediscovered the non-aggression principle

>>52296003
>actually dnd alignment system would mean than free will in the setting does not exist.
In DnD, "Good" and "Evil" are objective forces of the universe, but subjective morality and free will still exist independently of them. It's best to think of cosmic Good and Evil in DnD not as moral alignments, but as arbitrary points on a scale that tend to be aligned with our subjective concepts of alignment. Big G Good is not inherently "better" or "more moral" than big E Evil, they are just different.

This is actually one of the main ideas behind Fall-from-grace's character that most people miss - she chose that name for herself when she became a Sensate. From the perspective of a demon like her, becoming Lawful and Non-Evil is a fall, not a redemption.

>>52274567
>they're a major part of human culture and mythology.

Where they are universally considered manifestations of pure evil and destructive, which is why they are CE in D&D.

Your irrational distaste for the most popular and influential role-playing game does not change this.

>>52270290
>>52270295
this is why /tg/ rallies behind shit like goblin slayer
you gotta smite all the evil indeed.

>>52296699
Inverted Dub dubs lend weight to your observation.

>>52270588
Did Gygax touch your peepee when you were a kid or why are you invoking his name for no reason?
Seriously, you sound like someone with ISSUES.

>>52298823
There's an old quote about Gygax and orc babies or something.

>>52295400
Moties.

The rare Lawful Good demons are bait. Once let in, the parasitic larva in their guts begin developing and next thing you know, they go all John Hunt in Alien and this thread happens.
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/4229781/

>>52276046
The fiendish codex 1 and before that, fiend folio and book of vile darkness outright states demons are primordial evil made manifest.

A dm can make demons good, but then again when we go down that hole my dad can beat up your dad.

>>52270290
You know in a universe where Good and Evil are real, tangible, measurable things there isn't any moral relativity about this shit.

She's a demon. She's literally evil personified. Not only is the only correct thing to do kill her, but your stupid mother fucking make-the-paladin-fall scenario would never happen because she's a mother fucking demon not an american 9 year old who happened to be born in some infernal realm.

>>52276049
>>52276567
>>52276567
Yeah, something's fishy here. First of all, the story doesn't add up. The intensely suspicious villagers don't notice a summoning ritual that takes literal years to perform? The first demon has to be invited in, but somehow that rule doesn't apply to any of the other demons? Why are they so interested in enslaving the good townsfolk of Bumfuck, Nowhere in the first place, and why do they need an army to do it? And if they have to be invited in, what's the next step in their plan? "Step 1: Enslave Bumfuck. Step 2: Hope that nobody hears about it, and wait for invitations from neighboring boroughs."

Second, the plan is stupid. As other anons have observed, it's needlessly risky. You could just summon the demon army from outside the town; it's not as if they need an insider to sabotage Bumfuck's impenetrable defenses. But if there's some obscure rule which absolutely requires the summoner to get inside the town first, it'd be easier to accomplish that by disguising yourself as almost literally anything other than a demon: a trader, a cripple, a dog, a condemned criminal, a guy with some kind of obscure and untreatable wing condition—any of those would be more likely to be accepted than a demon. In this respect, the demon in the story made what is very nearly the worst possible decision.

But the part that I find really suspicious is the fact that this needlessly risky and stupid plan turns on the essential goodness of the human heart. The main danger stems from the possibility that the humans will simply kill you, rather than graciously accepting you into their lives after some initial probation period. It doesn't strike me as the kind of plan physical manifestations of evil are likely to invent.

Sure, it could be a plan created by a moronic demon. But how would a moron manage to maintain their cover for over a decade?

No, something else is going on here. I'm sure of it. But what?

>>52272611
>Smite 'em all, let God sort them out.
> to stop Innocent blood from staining the earth.

Was this intended to be a joke, or...? I honestly can't tell whether you missed the "you gotta kill some innocent people to prevent innocent people from getting killed" part of this.

>>52271943
>It's a thinly veiled pol immigration warning thread.
Is the moral of the story something like "judge people not by their words or deeds but by pre-existing stereotypes about them, because those are always right and anyway everyone will get slaughtered or enslaved if you don't"?

>>52277957
>If the whole thing was a chance happening that the dickass summoner was cashing in on, then killing the demon would open an investigation and catch the culprit at best and do nothing at worst. Whether by design or coincidence, the best and safest course of action would still be killing the demon.
Okay, so... is the maxim here something along the lines of "Kill anyone who attracts a lot of attention, because those people could be distracting you from nefarious evildoers"? I'm not sure that I'm following you correctly.

>>52302538
>But what?
OP being a faggot, as usual.

>>52302744
Anons let their irrational hatred of demons cloud their judgement, this is nothing new

>>52274361
DA:O is a terrible example because nearly every demon in that game acts directly against the interests of humanity. I can't remember a one that isn't playing an angle that doesn't involve at least ONE person's bodily autonomy being stolen from them, whether through trickery or force. Those are the mildest ones, there are others that wantonly slaughter human beings for the fuck of it. There's a reason why every abomination in the game is hostile. The only ones that aren't are ones that want you to let them steal someone's fucking body and mind from them.

>>52270290
Not murdering a demon claiming to be good is a selfish act.

Hear me out-
There are two possibilities.

The first is that the demon is being honest, and is genuinely good. In which case, by murdering an individual innocent of wrongdoing against you, you are committing an evil act and shall be justly punished for it in the afterlife. Meanwhile, being in a fantasy universe, the good demon is guaranteed a good afterlife.

Second, the demon is lying, and thus letting it go will allow it to tempt, ravage, murder, and otherwise defile the bodies and souls of those under your protection, condemning who knows how many people to eternal torment. Meanwhile, you, having done no evil, go to a good afterlife.

Thus, to kill the demon saves many or condemns one. To spare the demon saves one or condemns many.

Also demons are infamously manipulative, evil, and cunning, so really trusting it is pretty foolish anyway.

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>>52287451
>pick a Sorceress to shove your dick into,
I'd rather a medic.

>>52272934
>but physical manifestations of evil can be alignments other than evil
If your DM is shit, maybe

>>52306922
Default canon in D&D though
Just like the physical manifestation of Good/chaos/law can be something other than good/chaos/law respectively

>Shitty DM's face when he tells the paladin he falls for NOT smiting the secretly evil angel

>>52273164
>Isn't DnD's alignment system just wonderful?
Complaining the system breaks down when you are clearly torturously abusing it is completely disingenuous. A creature with an alignment subtype should not be able to be a different alignment.

>>52306939
>Default canon in D&D though
Bullshit it is.

>>52306959
>>52306987
Both the errata/SRDs and a handful of sample NPCs support it, and not just the succubutt waifus, there's a couple of cannon fallen celestals who've retained their good subtype despite being evil and I think at least one lawful Slaad

>>52301061
This. If demons are evil incarnate in the setting, all demons should be evil. Changing alignment should either be impossible for them, or cause then to cease being demons. If they are not evil incarnate, they shouldn't have the evil subtype, and therefore good demons shouldn't ping as evil nor be valid targets for the smite evil effect.

>>52306959
>>52306987
There's cannon examples of outsiders flipping outside of the occasional succubus paladin and retaining their old subtype, I know there's at least one solar in 3.5 who's working for the abyss and still has subtype (good) even as he's palling around with demons

>>52307019
Wasn't aware of that. That's retarded, and it shouldn't work that way because it's not internally consistent.

>>52273024
Anyone got a pick of a hot slutty succubus with a ridiculous derpy looking helm of episcopate alignment strapped on her?

>>52307066
Not really?
It'd be internally inconsistent if some flipped and kept the subtype and some didn't
Not to mention the subtype is supposed to represent what they're made of, alignment represents how they behave, an evil angel doesn't stop being made of good, though his evil alignment does make him a valid target for both smite evil on top of his subtype making smite good work on him

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>>52307097
You can always make your own.

>>52281540
That's just an incubus. Succubi are explicitly female, incubi male.

Look, if you want tonhave morally neutral succubi and loli demons, just make a custom race. Demons may try to redeem themselves, but if they're actually trying then they stop being demons. Make them angels or whatever else, maybe even a humanoid race, just don't keep them as demons.

>>52307458
Also fuck D&D desu.

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>>52274137

If that demon were truly morally good, it would smite itself for being objectively made of pure evil.

The fact it managed to encounter a smiting paladin at all proves it cannot be truly morally good. Because it would have smiten itself already, preventing the scenario from ever occurring. Accordingly the paladin would not fall for smiting it.

>>52274444

The only reasonable conclusion is morally opposite outsiders are but a more insidious version of their constituent alignment.

The 'morally good' demon is in fact just another facade of evil. It prays on the truly innocent who believe that good can be found in everyone. Leading them to doubt their convictions and lower their guard.

Conversely the 'morally evil' celestial is good making the best of a bad situation, no doubt unconsciously channeling the destructive urges of the truly evil towards some unforeseen productive end.

>>52273015
Because they choose to be a kind, helpful person instead of a huge dick.

>>52308385
>If that demon were truly morally good, it would smite itself for being objectively made of pure evil.
That's stupid though. Why an hero when you could go out into the world and help people?

>>52308385
>The only reasonable conclusion is morally opposite outsiders are but a more insidious version of their constituent alignment.
That's not a reasonable conclusion at all. Good and Evil as metaphysical forces don't have a monopoly on all that is subjectively good or evil. If they did, they would be infallible, and they clearly aren't because the other side still exists in opposition.

>>52308385
>If that demon were truly morally good, it would smite itself for being objectively made of pure evil.
Suicides a sin Anon

>Conversely the 'morally evil' celestial is good making the best of a bad situation, no doubt unconsciously channeling the destructive urges of the truly evil towards some unforeseen productive end.
He led abyssal cults and oversaw mass slaughters in demonic rituals anon

>>52303256
Any truly good person (assuming for the moment some crossover between real-world Abrahamic religions and this fictional world's religious morality) cares more about their own salvation than they do about anything else. Loving your God and wishing to spend an eternity basking in their presence is the first and most important virtue.

>>52309102
That's like saying people who do good things because they enjoy it are selfish. It's technically true, but it doesn't disqualify them from being good people.

>>52308788
>That's stupid though. Why an hero when you could go out into the world and help people?

Removing a creature of pure objective evil is helping people.

>That's not a reasonable conclusion at all. Good and Evil as metaphysical forces don't have a monopoly on all that is subjectively good or evil.

When good and evil are real metaphysical forces 'subjective good or evil' doesn't exist. It falls purely into the realm of personal taste and fee-fees.

>If they did, they would be infallible, and they clearly aren't because the other side still exists in opposition.

Not sure how that is an argument, or even what it is argument for. If both opposing forces are infallible than neither would be able overcome the other decisively.

If you're argument that True Good and True Evil infallibility is disproved by subjective morality existing. I would point out that subjective morality is an artificial construct created by mortals to facilitate their own lives. It exists independently of, and would in many ways be irrelevant to, Good and Evil. It's all about the people justifying their own crap to themselves and others.

On one hand
>The demon ended up killing everyone in the village, possibly dragging their souls to eternal torment
On the other hand
>It makes my peepee feel funny so it's A-Okay

>>52295309
Still would smite.

Profiling is evil, therefore any paladin assuming the alignment of a sapient creature, capable of self-determination, based off their race is infact evil.

No john, you are the demons.

>>52309761
That's some modern Quadi-subliminal moral reasonings.
So is the police offer evil for arresting a known murderer?

Is it reasonable to expect that a vampire who lives a reasonable distance away from any settlements, drinks blood from his own domestic animals and generally doesn't bother anyone is still eventually going to have adventurers show up at his front door looking to kick his shit in?

>>52310060
Yes. Do you attack and arrest a known terrorist just because he isn't killing anyone right now?

>>52310154
I think a better analogy would be "do you attack/arrest someone from ISIL-controlled territory just because a lot of people from that area are terrorists," to which I would say no.

>>52310060

Are his domestic animals actual animals or people?

Generally speaking, I'd say the vampire would be pretty safe from adventurers kicking the door in purely because he wouldn't have done anything to make his presence known. Now if they just stumbled across his estate or what ever it would get dicier, but even then shooing them away after night with out incident should be pretty easy. Provided he's not broadcasting his vampirism over a loud speaker for what ever reason.

>>52310060
Yes. The adventurer will probably win that, if only because he's already gotten good XP off of the threatening vampires.

>>52310188
I think a better analogy is: Would you attack/arrest someone who is a cyborg when all known and recorded cyborgs in all of history were bloodthirsty and sociopathic killers?

>>52310193
Normal cows and pigs.

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>>52310240
That's racist. You're racist.

>>52310277
Its not racist if it's true!

>>52310253

It'd be pretty easy to avoid adventurers and most other vampire hunting types just as a default given his circumstances I'd say.

If they somehow found out he was a vampire, then it'd really be a RP question boiling down to depends on the circumstances and people involved.

>>52310290

Believing it's true is what's racist.

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>>52310290
But it's not. Look at this guy. Clearly gentle.

What are we arguing about?

>>52309906
Not evil for arresting, evil for profiling. it's an immoral act.

>>52310401
Profiling is a useful tool. Without it we would be blind to all danger and unable to survive.
>Hey look it's a tiger. Tigers are dangerous.
>>Nah man, you can't profile a tiger, that's speciest
>*Second guy gets mauled to death by tiger*
Or
>Hey that's a demon. They're literally made from Evil manifested.
>>That's speciest. You can't profile a creature!
>*Second guy gets dragged to hell by a demon army.*

>>52310472
You sound like one of those people that have too much to drink on feastdays, get some friends together and then savagely beat a tiegling

>>52310502
But how the hell are police supposed to do their jobs if it's considered "mean" and illegal to try and identify dangerous people?

>>52310472
Except the tiger has no sense of reasoning or self-determination, the demon does. Your analogy doesn't work with more complex beings than basic animals.

>>52310542
By waiting until they commit crimes to arrest them.

>>52288005
Why would a demon need to be invited to a town in order to summon an army? AFAIK They aren't the same as vampires

>>52310567
So we can't try to prevent a terrorist attack from happening because that would be profiling?
We can't prevent a murder by arresting the suspect?

One question. Does the demon come up as evil with a Detect Evil spell?

>>52310593
Possession of an explosive device and conspiracy to commit/attampted murder are both crimes.

>>52310401
>Hey this black dude is approaching me in a hostile manner. His arms are covered in tattoos, he is shaking erratically, his eyes are bloodshot, and he is holding one arm behind his back. He may be up to no good
>>WAAHHHH RACIST HOMOPHOBIC BAST- *stabbed to death by a druggie*

(A ban on profiling just means you need more evidence than "they're black or brown" to detain someone. It's not a very high bar.)

>>52310593
>Profiling
Assuming that because someone is X, they will commit a crime
>Stopping plots
Finding evidence that indicates someone is about to commit a crime and acting to stop them.

>>52310672
Fucking HELL. PROFILING would be saying "Oh no, a black man, he's clearly about to kill me for drug money!" What you just described is more, "Oh no, a druggy who is clearly tweaked out and quite probably concealing a weapon, he's probably going to kill me for drug money!"

See? ONE has reasonable fucking doubt due to strong circumstantial evidence, the other simply draws on the individual's race; the one thing that DOES NOT FUCKING MATTER.

>>52310623

They always do

Even if they become a paladin like Eludecia

if you detect good on her, she comes off as good

Detect evil? Evil

>>52310747
You are evil, anon.

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>>52270290
>the small demon wonders if the people "deserved" what they got
Is there any question about it?

>>52310635
What if the terrorist is not standing there with the explosive out like a total cockhead?

If you search the person its profiling, if you don't terrorists win.

Profiling is not implicitly immoral. I like dogs, i can profile if a dog is a trustworthy dog, or one that will bite me.

>>52311070
Again, you're using animals as your example, and hell man this is even worse than the tiger example because if someone got bit by a dog you'd be saying it's okay for them to assume all dogs are vicious and can go forth and smite them with impunity.

>>52311070
You literally just need ANY evidence other than their "looking like a terrorist," dude.

>>52310240
>>52310188
>>52310154

Are you guys fucking retarded when it comes to analogies?
The only one that fits a vampire who doesn't drink from humans is a pedo.
So the proper analogy should be as follows
"Do you arrest a known pedophile even though he's never molested a child?"

Vampire has an extreme urge to kill humans and drink their blood.
Pedo has an extreme urge to rape children.
Vampire ignores their urge by drinking cow blood.
Pedo ignores their urge by fapping to lolicon.

>>52309757
>Smite benign, but evil aligned outsider living in Sigil
>Mercykillers and Harmonium come after you for murder
100% Clueless

>>52311339
If those things come after a paladin for slightly questionable acts then clearly all other evil beings on the plane have been slain due to the things not having anything better to do. Now if I was a wizard with a wand of Detect evil nobody would bat an eyelid if I killed this thing.

>>52311377
Wizards have no sense of right or wrong, though.

>>52311337
Would you be okay with informing authorities (assuming the local constabulary is just) about the presence of the vampire, so that if anybody does turn up drained of all blood they have a good first suspect?
Perhaps what we really need is a T. Pratchett-style support group for vampires, membership in which is mandatory.

>>52311415
No. Sociopaths have no sense of right and wrong. It's just a /tg/ meme that wizards don't care.

>Not a single priest in the whole town
>Godforsaken land where no traveling holy men dare set foot

They deserved it

>>52311377
>Now if I was a wizard with a wand of Detect evil nobody would bat an eyelid if I killed this thing.
Well, they would probably be wondering why you attacked her and not one of the much more evil fiends hanging out in the Lower Ward or the Hive. And then the Harmonium would come and take you to prison because you murdered somebody in a brothel with two dozen witnesses.

>>52312014
Okay wtf are you talking about? What's a harmonium? What's a lower Ward? What's a Hive? Why would the demon be in a brothel if it's supposedly good aligned? Also, Demons aren't people so I didn't murder anyone!

>>52312062
In the setting Fall-from-grace is from (Planescape, specifically Sigil), it wouldn't make any sense for a Paladin to smite her, even if he wanted too. There are, believe it or not, more nuances to smiting than see demon->smite, even in D&D.

>>52312160
If the creature isn't evil then smite evil won't do any damage. So if they really aren't evil they have nothing to worry about.

>>52270290
>ITT People assume a hypothetical is based solely in DnD

>>52312495
Only DnD's alignment system is retarded enough to allow these kinds of discussions.

In other settings it would be
>All demons are evil, so obviously the small demon is to blame
or
>Demons are usually evil, but there's exceptions, so we need more evidence

But DnD is
>Demons are literally MADE of Evil, but there's also exceptions and they don't have to be, but even when they aren't evil, they're still evil, and nobody can agree on how that works, so smitefags blame the demon, and feel justified, and waifufags don't blame the demon, and feel justified

>>52312609
True enough.

Frankly, the last line is almost tagged on anyways, intentionally to get people riled up.

>>52312208
Except the trained warrior hitting them with a weapon on the basis on their race?

>>52312706
If they're a demon they will survive the non-magical hit. Also wouldn't you try and kill what is AN EMBODIMENT OF PURE EVIL if you're a paladin?

>>52312753
see >>52312609

You only assume they are an embodiment of pure evil. And in some settings, you'd be correct. In others, though, you'd be wrong.

>>52312861
But why would a demon WANT to be non-evil?

>>52313051
Why would an angel fall?

So much as people hate to admit it, it has to be a two way street, or its a poor mans excuse for an ultimatum.

>>52312861
Wait, then everyone is arguing about unequal scenarios. As usual, we all forgot to agree on settings/fundamentals first.

That said, no matter how appealing a Demon's story, if 99.99% of the time listening to a Demon results in enslavement/disembowelment, then there is no reasonable action that involves listening to the bloody Demon.

>>52313051
>>52313095

The demons and angels in question are autists incapable of functioning amongst their own kind.

>>52313051
Any number of reasons. And they might not necessarily want to. Being shamelessly evil requires a certain lack of empathy. A demon that suddenly finds themselves empathizing with everyone probably won't find being evil enjoyable.

>>52313144
once again see >>52312609

Thats only true a portion of the time, and depends on the system in question. Even within those systems, DM's are well within their right to handwave this, so thats not even entirely true.

>>52313157
But why would they suddenly gain empathy? Also, wouldn't the path to redemption for a demon include making up for hundreds to tens of thousands of years of doing demon things?

>>52313251
>But why would they suddenly gain empathy?
Some traumatic or eye-opening experience, most likely. For >>52273164 it was spending thousands of years as a slave in Baator.

>Also, wouldn't the path to redemption for a demon include making up for hundreds to tens of thousands of years of doing demon things?
Non-evil is not the same as redeemed. I don't actually know what happens to a demon that fully reconciles their sins.

>>52313251
Why do people suddenly lose it? a sudden change in their lives.

As for the path to redemption, many of the greatest hero's in media are those that chose to redeem themselves.

Denying demons that path denies the idea of redemption at all.

>>52312208
Problem is, by D&D rules having the evil subtype will still allow smite evil to work even if they're good

>>52273408
>>52274024
>>52274188
>>52274278
>>52275859
>>52295738
>>52301061
>>52308385
Wait a minute. Good and evil might be objective qualities in the context of D&D, but how would anyone figure that out in-character? The PCs can't read the rulebooks. (Not in a conventional campaign, anyway.)

It seems to me that in-game characters would have to rely on induction, as with most attributes of the universe. If the presence of demons is nearly always followed by murder and enslavement, then of course nobody would respond to the arrival of a group of demons by breaking out the good silverware and the nice china. But an inductive understanding of good and evil necessarily leaves open the possibility of a good demon, given sufficient evidence of goodness, so it's hard to say that the villagers' behavior is necessarily unreasonable.

Really, the story plays on our prior dispositions regarding little girls and demons. Alter those elements, and it looks different:

>ratty-looking hobo shows up at a town
>nobody wants to let him in, because hobo
>over the years he turns out to be a pretty decent guy who is only mildly annoying
>eventually they decide to let him in the town anyway, on the grounds that maybe he'll get a job and be less of a ratty-looking hobo
>a week later everyone is eaten by giant salamanders

The betrayal is basically the same. It's just more obviously unforeseeable, lacking the "She's a DEMON you IDIOTS" element which makes the first story seem compelling. The degree to which you think the villagers' actions are sensible depends strongly on the way you weight your prior "all demons are evil" conviction relative to the acquired "this demon isn't evil" evidence.

Which raises an obvious question: In your opinion, is the proposition "all demons are evil" falsifiable, and, if so, what evidence would you need in order to reject it?

>>52272611

That's cool and all but then you aren't Lawful Good. If your willing to go to hell to save the lives (temporary, fleshy lives) of people from demons, rather than let them be killed and go to heaven, then you are some kind of badass vigilante and not a paladin.