Why in the seven hells was Lord of the Rings the template for

>>52263133
Because Conan focuses on a single hero, while LoTR was about an adventuring party.

>>52263152
Not true. Both Conan and Kull had lots of travelling companions and comrades.

>>52263133
LotR wasn't the template for D&D.

I'm not sure where you got you information, but it is incorrect. Tolkein races were included despite the template for D&D. The first published adventure is against space aliens in a castle populated by time-travelling frog men protecting a genetic-manipulation machine.

LotR is pretty incidental to the history of D&D.

>>52263133
Cause LotR wasn't the base Fafhrd and The Grey Mouser was as well as Moorecock's Elric to an Extent. LotR wasn't that big in America uet during DnDs early development in the 70s but stuff like Elves, Dwarves, and Balrogs were added upon their reading of it.

>>52263228
>includes Fafhrd and The Grey Mouser
>forgets Vance
God damnit, anon.

>>52263250
Sorry never personally read Vance's fantasy just his sci-fi

>>52263228
>that time where Fafhrd's daughter shows up and is named Fingers because she was a fuckslave for a pirate ship and used her fingers on the crew, her ass on the officers, and her vagina on the captain

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Lord of the Rings was book sneered at in the academia and not that known until the hippies pick it up.

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>appendix n yo

>>52263266
The distinction wasn't so strong back then. The entire Planet Of Adventure series and The Dieing Earth are good examples of vance's writing that's a mix of what contemporary shelving would call scifi or fantasy.

>>52263266
You're missing out. The Dying Earth sometimes has more ideas in a single chapter than other novels throughout their entire length.

>high-minded
>death to literature itself
>or perhaps the modern world... wasn't all bad.
>Oh, fuck! Not another elf!

>>52263133
>Why in the seven hells was Lord of the Rings the template for Dungeons and Dragons, and not Conan?
it wasn't

>>52263295

It's funny because Tolkien, as a hardcore Catholic, hated his hippy/new age religion fans.

I'm glad it wasn't based on conan. the magic in dnd is for scientists. the magic in conan is really risky. if there is anything I hate worse than a "perils of the warp" situation, its magic with retarded price tag attached it like lovecraftian magic

>>52263702
Kinda this. In games where there's a fuckheug rollchart you have to make every time you cast a spell to determine whether your spell shoots off like normal, it shoots of with a cloud of purple doves, or it fails and your kneecaps explode, I just play a boring-ass fighter.
Half the time the magic in such games is terribad anyways.

>>52263192
>LotR is pretty incidental to the history of D&D.

What are you smoking. D&D literally ripped LotR content wholesale, prompting Tolkien's estate to *threaten legal action* to make Gygax change it. For god's sake,the game shipped with Balrogs and Hobbits! When he got cornered about it Gygax threw up some stuff about how it barely mattered and it was a marketing move anyway or something, which was clearly bullshit. Some decades later in 2000 he finally went so far as to admit that LotR had, quote, a "strong impact" on D&D.

OP is going too far calling LotR the "template" for D&D, but it was clearly--and by Gygax's own words--a big influence on it. Calling it "incidental" is ignorant at best and disingenuous at worst.

>>52263133
Because D&D came out of wargames, and wargamers wanted to fight the War of Five Armies.

>>52264498
The only lawsuit was over halflings, which were not in OD&D at first.

>>52264498
It attempted to capitalize on well-known fantasy races. No one is disputing that. You need to learn a tad more about the history of D&D, because LotR's influence was incidental. Yes: Tolkien's estate forced them to change Hobbits to Halflings.

That's not a template built on D&D. Orcs, elves and dwarves could'a been smorgs, orgs and borgs for all it mattered to what made D&D what D&D is.

Halflings were called Hobbits originally, then had to be taken out because Tolkien('s family?) threatened to sue.

>>52264572
They weren't even in the game originally.

>>52263295

Another time when the hippies were right. They don't get enough credit, them hippies. Doing away with conformism, bringing about the sexual revolution, getting respect for LotR they gave it their all.

>>52263133
Some other people have sort of said it, but not quite as explicitly. Gygax wrote what stories he was trying to emulate, and Conan is on the list, and LotR is not. The only thing D&D took from LotR is elves and dwarves, which aren't very LotR-ish anymore.

>>52263133
Conan is the template, retard.

The Lost City module is a love letter to Red Nails, for example

>>52265756
Hippies are a deplorable cultus.

>>52267018

Oh shut up, Nixon's head in a jar, you're not fooling anyone.

>>52263133

You're an idiot.

Conan was the template from the beginning. Also The Dying Earth. They are two of Gygax's primary inspirations.

Tolkien only provided Gygax with a number of races to use. That's it. Even then, he changed them to suit his tastes.

Later editions -- particularly 3e and later -- drew more heavily on Tolkien because Tolkien got an enormous burst of mainstream exposure at the end of the 20th century and start of the 21 century. Races and classes morphed to converge with the newly popular conception of fantasy.

>>52267126
Nope. Tolkien said that. Look it up.

>>52267206
>Also The Dying Earth
It's funny how little people mention this, considering the magic system is even referred to as "Vancian". D&D magic is pretty far removed from the way it's portrayed in Tolkien.

>>52263133
wasn't there a bunch of explicitly conan themed modules at the beginning that were discontinued due to rights issues?

>>52263702
IIRC sorcerers in Howard's fiction had to give up something esoteric in order to gain the ability to cast spells. Something along the lines of their libido or past memeories.

>>52268399
*memories

>>52263702
>>52264035

Found the feedora donning bathrobe faggot players who just play wizards to conquer with their projected "superior enlightened intellect"

Also on the topic, D&D wasn't based on either on those. It CLAIMS to be based on conanesque S&S, but also rips of plenty of themes from Tolkien, albeit in extremely bastardized and trivialized way.
Ultimately it misses the point of both and fails to capture the feel of either.

>>52263181
Usually one at a time though.

>>52263133
Gygax himself said he hated LotR and prefered Conan.

>>52263442
Just when I thought JRRT couldn't be more awesome.

D&D isn't LoTR nor it is Conan or Jack Vance. It's actually mishmash of them all and more with purpose of being generic fantasy template to run any kind of adventures. This is also why it's so successful. There's something for everyone. Just look at FR which has Tolkien, Conan, sci-fi/magitech, Lovecraft, dinosaurs, weeaboo, pirates, Arabian nights, poo in the loo and so on.

>>52263133
It's funny how non-casters are useful in every fantasy setting that isn't D&D.

>>52264569
>Orcs, elves and dwarves could'a been smorgs, orgs and borgs for all it mattered

No, they really couldn't have. They we're straight ripped from middle-earth along with their characteristics.

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>LotR
>Conan
>Not The Wizard of Oz
Plebs, all of you!

>>52270864
Thankfully he was more concerned with the mechanics while Arneson had more control over the theme and tone.

>>52263133
Dude, enough already.

>>52265756
>conformism
Nothing wrong with conforming, just depends on what you're conforming to.

>>52274628

If it's voluntary, sure. Mandatory conformism sucks. I'm glad I don't have to wear a monkey suit to keep my job like I would have in the 50s.
The central tenet of the hippies from the earliest days was "do your own thing." It's funny that the later arrivals took that to mean "dress and act and talk like everybody else," but I suppose that's standard for any popular movement. Still, they managed to make society much more open to different ways of being, which is a big win in my books.

>>52263133
>>52263192
>>52263266
>(and others)
Why is anyone acting like D&D was based on one specific thing? A reading of prettymuch any of the D&D material from the late 70's and early 80's make it pretty obvious the Gygax was reading a TON of various fantasy fiction (and plenty of mythology).

LOTR, Elric and Dying Earth are just the most obvious influences, but by no means the only ones. There's no doubt GG had read Conan, the fingerprints are there. That and plenty of other pulp I'm sure.

Early D&D was basically a mashup of every fantasy trope that existed at the time, and I think that was by design. The whole intent was to give players a ruleset on which they could build THEIR adventures - which could be whatever they wanted. The obsession with a unique "canon" setting was a later development.

>>52263702
>>52264035
This kind of magic seems more credible for me than "I have a physic phd so with my sheer childhood-power-illusion willpower I can bend reality".
I really prefer the idea that only spirits (including fairies, gods, demons, etc) have the power to bend reality, and that you need to actually negociate with them for supernatural favors.
Some will become kinda your regulars and friends if you keep a good relationship and reputation with them, and you have to manage your own reputation in the spirit world:
For example if you are a dick to fire spirits they will accept more easily deals with rival sorcerers to fuck you hard, while water spirits may see you as a buddy and you may have better deals with them. Maybe.
That makes your magic user character way more deep, challenging and fun than just Science is Magic without having to roleplay actual science knowledge.

>>52270864
Makes sense. The LOTR has pretty poor pacing and Conan has a lot more personality.

>>52275925
The obsession with canon settings has kinda poisoned the scene for me.

RIP Mystara.

>>52263133

It actually is. DND is about adventuring, dungeons, monsters, combat on a personal scale, larger than life (eventually) persons.

From LOTR DND took the idea of the races and the fellowship, but it's not really important in the game itself, at least not the way tolkien did it.

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Is this just a thinly veiled Conan discussion thread or just bait?