>Pull out of Bajor >Forced by treaty to give up weird helmets

>>52165469
I... I think it is the other way around, Gul Dukat.

>>52165489
That's Gul Macet, actually, from The Wounded.

Before you call nerd on me knowing that, it's my favorite episode of the whole franchise and I've seen it like 18 times so his name stuck with me.

https://youtu.be/0ssHxZABrpE

"I'm not gonna win this one, am I, Chief?"

What the eff. I must've scrubbed this from my memory. Also that really, really looks like >>52165489 Dukat. Which makes sense since it's the same actor >>52165600: http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Macet

>>52165469

Wait what? I know nothing g of there being an in universe reason for the loss of their helmets. Thought that was just the design team deciding they looked daft.

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Bajorans suck.

>>52166320
Not gonna lie, just finished DS9 for the second time and all I could think of was "man future /pol/ would have a field day"

>>52166320
Why is the Bajoran flag a stylized vagina

>>52170164
Because they're a bunch of moaning pussies.

>>52166320
DO IT AGAIN DOMINION!

Bajor didn't make the Cardassians leave. The Federation did.

Something happened to make the Cardassians really worried about what would happen if they got into a serious fight with a faction that didn't build dedicated warships.

>>52170164

Well, it's not alone, look at the Cardassian flag and tell me that's not a stylized version of a weird spoonhead vag. and then try not to think about that time the Cardassian chick thought O'Brian was hitting on her, and was into it.

>>52172910
"Dedicated warships" is kind of a meaningless distinction when everything from the Galaxy-class to the piddly science ships has enough firepower to glass a planet, General Order 24-style. Just cuz they don't call their ships warships doesn't mean it's a good idea to get in a fight with them.

>>52173995

This. I would rather fight any two Klingon warships over one Federation "science vessel". At least I know what I can expect from the Klingons. There is a 50/50 chance that, years from now, a I'll be able to read a research paper full of words I don't understand that details how the fuck the science vessel beat me.

>>52166555
Implying future/pol/ wouldn't approve of how the Based Bajorans dealt with Skrreea rapefugees.

>>52177076
>>52173995
>implying the Federation doesn't have its head entirely up its ass about what Starfleet is
It's a bunch of space boats with a military hierarchy. That's a Navy.

>>52173995
>>52177076
And then there's this bit of wisdom from Quark, about humans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-D2SHNqkjbY

>>52184160
The decline of Ferenginar is legit sad, even though/especially since it's moving towards a not shitty place to be.
"Valiant" was straight up someone's idea of what a producer might force on them to do as a shitty backdoor pilot. It's like a CW Star Trek show.

>>52170164
It's symbolic of the average Bajoran.

>>52170164
because it got penetrated by that Cardassian snake dick

MUH SIXTY SIX GORRILLION BAJORANS

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>>52177076
This seems relevant.

I really want Star Trek polandball

Cardassia did nothing wrong

>star trek campaign where every PC is a member of an antagonist race in a civilian ship
>cardassian
>romulan
>klingon
>reptilian Xindi
>Orion

>>52165469
Non-Trekker here. Why are those two rubber-headed gentlemen wearing jockstraps on their heads? Did Kirk trick them to make them look like assholes or something?

>>52184336
I've seen this a few times but that last part always cracks me up.

>>52184336
>macgyuver is equivalent to vintage horror to vulcans
This one's really good.

>>52184504
Probably. That's exactly the sort of thing he'd do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2TkUFw9t9g

>>52184468
we actually had a very short campaign like that. I was a Romulan "cargo specialist" (assassin) and the other two PCs were an Orion pirate and a Cardassian.

It was pretty fun and the GM came up with some nice challenges for us. We had beamed up a sample from a wandering planet and as cargo specialist I went down to supervise. It turns out it was gray goo from a planet that had wiped itself out, so we had a whole shipboard adventure dealing with that.

>>52173514
I would have wrecked her spoon poon so hard it would've been the Battle of Wolf 369 if you catch my drift anon.

Do you catch my drift?

Anon?

I'm talking about having sex with a quite fertile female.

>>52184579
The part that always gets me is
>but why
>CUZ THAT WOULD BE FUCKING SICK

>>52184336

>What is the word "fuck" for," the innocent young Vulcans want to know. "Surely the are more logical intensity modifiers."

>"Yeah, you think so," say the weary jaded Vulcan professors. "You'd really fucking think so."

>Our assignment was to build a phaser emitter and my one human classmate built a chronometric-flux toaster that toasts bread after you've eaten it."

Makes me howl every time I read it.

>>52166320
That episode with the space sailboat really was WEWUZ in space. I loved O'Brien's reaction in that episode
>O'Brien: [is skeptical of pre-warp Bajoran space exploration on engineering grounds]
>Kira: You sound like a Cardassian - always trying to tear down any achievement made by a Bajoran!
>O'Brien: And you sound like a Romulan - always claiming any progress that could be made, you did it first!

>>52173995
That's mainly because Starfleet is completely braindead and can't decide if they're pacifists today or not.
>>52185784
Kek

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>>52173995
And you *really* don't want to fuck with what they *do* call a warship.

>>52184160
"People who are starved, tortured, and in constant danger react negatively to those things."

No shit, Quark. Not exactly profound, nor is it some kind of moral indictment against humans.

>>52184336
>it exploded twice as fast
Hahaha

>>52172910
But the fed does have war vessels, they have since the war with the Klingons. That war turned into the galaxies example of why not to fuck with the pink skins

>>52184336
And yet they can't build a warp core ejection system that ever actually fucking works.

"We need to eject the warp core!"

"Warp core ejection system is offline!"

Every. Single. Fucking. Time.

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>Have a cousin who looks and sounds exactly like you somehow and is an evil prick even by Cardassian standards
>Grow ridiculous facial hair so people won't think you're him

I've got a trekker friend who's like to point out part of the reason federation ships (and humans) are so batshit is because they're made of technology cobbled together from multiple races who had a centuries long cold war. Vulcan engines, Andoran phasers, human chassis, whatever fucking race invented the holodeck - the humans just fucking spot-welded them together because why not

>>52186362
I'M AN ENGINEER DAMMIT! I CAN WELD ANYTHING TO ANYTHING!

>>52186196
They duct-tape their warp cores in, of course they can't eject them

>>52186362
The engines are purely human, actually (that's a pretty big plot point of Enterprise). Vulcans appear to have given them tractor beams and maybe, later, weapons. Shields come from the Andorians (at least in one alternate timeline, but I don't see why they wouldn't in others as well). A species called the Xyrillians is the most likely source of the holodeck.

>>52173995

The Empire builds a ship that can blow up planets. They call it a "Death Star" and put it in the middle of a battle fleet.

Starfleet builds a ship that can blow up planets. They call it a "mining vessel" and leave it lying around with the keys in the ignition.

>oh no space terrorists have gotten hold of our purely peaceful research torpedo that melts all organic life on a planet, how did that happen

>>52193505
Stardate 8130.4 nevar forget

>>52184927
>it would've been the Battle of Wolf 369 if you catch my drift
>Battle of Wolf 369
>369

kys

>>52186038
>indictment

I don't think that was the point.

>>52185995
It's just an escort.

>>52186038
I don't know as it's an indictment so much as it's an observation that humans are deceptively violent when the other aliens don't necessarily know very much about their history.

>>52185889
>completely braindead and can't decide if they're pacifists today or not
It's not so much that, they weren't pacifists, then they got so far ahead they were pacifists through superior firepower, then the Borg hit them and the federation basically suffered a category 500 chimpout and aren't pacifists any more.

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>>52194806
>a category 500 chimpout

>>52193505
Reminder: The Genesis weapon was a terraforming tool that also happened to be an Exterminatus device that couldn't be countered and could be installed in a Klingon Kia-Of-Prey. Combine that with the 'Fire a torp while cloaked' trick, and you have tiny, five-man cloaked vessels that can kill planets and be built by the hundreds. Imagine what *literally any other power in the quadrant could have done with that*

>>52195146
>and be built by the hundreds

Well, assuming the Genesis device itself was mass produceable. We don't really know what kinds of resources went into making even one of them.

>>52177076
Depends. If the Federation warship isn't crewed by a main cast crew, my money's on the Klingons. Stealth and Boarding Crews really are an advantage.

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>>52166320

>How can there be war crimes when there hasn't been a war?

Still the best DS9 episode.

>>52195354
Plus AFAIK the guys who made it fucking died.

>>52195146
>>52195354
If Star Fleet applied half of the things that they have they could burn the galaxy.

Consider the phase-cloak.
Now picture the sub-space transporters.
Stick a warp drive on it.
Give it a simple intelligence.
Now give it a stock pile of nukes

Now make a fleet of them

Now fire it into the blackness with the mission to remove population centers that aren't UFP.

It can beam nukes into city centers and military installations from light years out. It just cruises out at warp too-slow-to-compromise-stealth and only decloaks for the brief time it takes to nuke a world to the stone age or extinction. Then it finds the next target. And the next. And the next.

It's a wall of death expanding outwards from the UFP at a steady and unstoppable rate. There is no out running it. There is no reasoning with it. It is death hand it will never ever stop.

If the Klingons knew anything about Earth history and knew what Star Fleet keep locked up in the basement they would know that the wars they fought was humanity with the kiddie gloves on so as not to damage their quetsy ickle wickle dainty forehead ridges.

>>52196072
Shit, you don't even have to go that far. Every goddamn starship could theoretically beam down massively powerful bombs payloaded with the ship's own matter/antimatter fuel to basically anywhere, so long as the shields are down.

That's always been one of the holes in Star Trek.

>>52185995
That dainty wee gunboat packs a mean suckerpunch.

>>52196072
>Now make a fleet of them
Actually, you just need one. Starfleet has already demonstrated von neumann technology.
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Self-replicating_mine

>>52196257
You trying to make the galaxy uninhabitable? Because that's how you make a galaxy uninhabitable.

>>52196107
Let's be honest here, Star Trek's setting is as holey as a saint.

>>52194763
So it's more like "Humans are as tough as anyone else" instead of "Deep down, humans are violent monsters"?

>>52196287

Or "With other races, what you see is what you get. With humans, their default civilization is a thin soap bubble veneer over an angry ape that will tear your throat out with its teeth".

>>52196278
Yeah, but well, schlock has a charm all its own.

>>52173514
Threadly reminder that Kira's hostility made her look like a massive whore to every Cardassian in existence and they all though she was madly in love with Dukat.

Every Starfleet officer on the station no doubt had been given a cultural briefing, they just didn't bother to tell Kira because they thought it was funny.

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I don't know much about Star trek at all, other than enjoying DS9 quite a lot when it came out and watching some of Voyager for the Doctor, but never being able to really get into the rest outside the movies.
But here is a question: There were a whole bunch of wars in earth's past, right? Apparently pretty horrifying shit going on. Khan and all that.
Has any of that been ever explored? It seems pretty interesting, especially how other races would react to it, and reminds me of 40k's intriguing Old Night.
Pic unrelated, it's the only Star Trek pic on my machine.

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the federation has no real military

>>52172910
The Federation has what are widely considered the most capable ships of the line...except they don't have cloaking technology thanks to their treaty obligations.

But a Yamato-class battleship rocks virtually anything any other power can muster, usually two or three of them no sweat.

I know virtually nothing about Trek and I know this.

>>52196557
>literally no ground forces at all
>One time they needed them starfleet just sent some dudes with phasers
How the fuck does this happen?

>>52196529
>written by idiots
Ok.

>>52196529
>Steamrunner
>Lightly armed
In all references to them in beta canon (the only area where we get their loadouts, as alpha canon never talks about them much), they're torpedo boats and pack a ludicrous arsenal. Clearly, someone didn't know much about Trek beta canon ship design.

>>52196706
There is no ship in Starfleet designated the Yamato-class. Please try again. Perhaps you mean the Galaxy-class, as the sister ship of the Enterprise-D (the most famous Galaxy) was the USS Yamato? /stg/represent

>>52196744
They also didn't know much about the military, fighter aircraft, and naval vessels.

>>52196762
Oh are we pretending the video games don't exist?

>>52186196
except that one time on voyager when they ejected it and it got fucking jacked

>>52196808
I generally don't care about STO, but you are correct in that STO has a Yamato-class, named for the USS Yamato and functionally just a Galaxy-X variant. Apologies for neglecting it.

>>52196708
This is why one of the few things I liked about Enterprise was the MACOs. The MACOs were actually pretty fuckin' operator.

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>>52185366

>Our assignment was to build a phaser emitter and my one human classmate built a chronometric-flux toaster that toasts bread after you've eaten it."

>>52196529

>Has any of that been ever explored?

not really? ENT does a bit with augment soldiers but its still set 2150's rather than 20th/21st century events

>>52196808

Yes , actually.

Not canon

>>52165469
can someone explain to me what did the helmets do anyways?

>>52196529
I fucking love the Miranda refit.

I also love (some of) the fan designs for the Miranda class in the OS style.

>>52165600
>Before you call me a nerd, I watched an episode of Star Trek 18 times.

Hmm

>>52198115

I've always had a thing for old equipment that's kept upgraded/relevant and continues to serve.

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>>52198115
>>52198215
Look at that sexy beast.

If only I could be in a tabletop game set in TOS Star Trek.

>>52186196
Or their bizarre choice to make manual overrides that need power and/or computer control, therefore defeating the purpose of a MANUAL override. Fuck's sake, design a system of clamps that kick the warp core out of the ship when they lose power for longer than a minute, if you can spare five minutes of not bouncing a charged nadion pulse of multispectral hypergravitons off the main deflector dish.

>>52199600
even if you do that, they'll be "fused" and not even operable mechanically

>>52195995
I think that was the point that series got good for me.

Also gerrick was great.

>>52195995
>Because they WERE clean!
Fucking chills.

>>52197099
Explain

>>52200932
>>52195995
Name?

>>52201171
Duet

>>52201065
They basically showed up later in the show as essentially the NX-01's tactical team. They actually moved like trained military or SWAT entry teams in action, used cover effectively, and even carried flashbangs. Also taser nightsticks.

>>52172910
>Something happened to make the Cardassians really worried about what would happen if they got into a serious fight with a faction that didn't build dedicated warships.

Because the Cardassians already lost a war against the Federation before.

>>52202341
This. It was the offscreen war that resulted in O'Brien regrettably making his first kill.

>>52202758
Regretfully. There's nothing regrettable about it.

>>52196360
That's just another way of saying "Deep down, humans are violent monsters."

not enough sexy cardassian chicks itt

i only remember like...4? cardassian chicks in the whole series

>>52203799
And except for Vulcans, which will kill you methodically and without malice, everyone else in the galaxy can't even suppress the fact they they're monsters

>>52203825
>inb4 Kim the Cardassian

>>52203799
Yes, humans without all their civiliation and philosophy and the other things that keep them safe will resort to desperate measures to survive. As much as people try to spin it into an insult, it says something that humans built a civilization in the first place that let them be something other than monsters. If anything, it means that civilization is worth protecting.

>>52204351
>As much as people try to spin it into an insult

Which amuses me because in the actual context the quote is delivered, it's more of a backhanded compliment than anything else.

>>52198064
They were placed onto the head.

>>52204343
The first time I ever heard someone talk about the Kardashians reality TV show, I honestly thought they'd said Cardassians, and I was very confused.

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>>52198215
It sure beats overpriced new equipment that can't do anything well except make contractors rich.

>>52196708
>>52197099
>>52201518
Come to think of it, why do no ground forces wear any kind of armor or personal shields?

>>52204645
If a personal shield gets hit by phaser fire both items explode.

>>52204645
Probably because it doesn't fit the space opera aesthetic. Certainly no practical reason not to have those things (and you do kind of see them in subcanon side material, I think).

>>52196395
Might also because this is Kira we're talking about here. Can you even imagine how awkward that conversation would have been?

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>>52196529
The pre-federation robot probe ships were also interesting.

>>52204683
Frank, what the Hell are you doing here? You're dead. Go back to being dead.

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>>52207165

>>52204645
My only guess is that phasers are much stronger than sheilds and armor at that scale.

No point in weighing down your troops.

Though, if I were fighting a force without I would use more primitive weapons with more flexible effects to counter them. Grenade launchers, mortars, anti-personnel mines, I'm pretty sure even chemical weapons would do a number.

>>52204683
somebody else already mentioned it, but nice Dune reference

>>52165469
Because they are literally space jews.

>>52166555

DS9 confirmed for best Trek.

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>>52196706

That just makes me wonder how the real Yamato would fare in Star Trek.

>>52165600
theres no shame in that. Ive seen every episode of star trek ever made and I intend to see them again multiple times before i die. I fucking love star trek.

>>52193910
>369 DAMN SHE FINE MAYBE SHE CAN SOCK IT TO ME ONE MORE TIME GET LOW GET LOW GET LOW GET LOW
fixed it for you

>>52196529
>galaxy class is the F-35

KILL URSELF LOSER

>>52208719
>the real Yamato

The real Yamato is a wreck 1100 feet under the Pacific blown in half by a magazine explosion.

>>52197016
It's by far the most heavily armed ship in STO. Which I figured was worth mentioning.

>>52198025
Right, sorry. Not a Trek fan, don't know (or care) how the canon works.

>>52208661
You mean Enterprise?

>>52165469
>Cardassaians
Literally less redeeming factors than the Borg/Romulans. At least when the Romulans do cheeky war-provoking bullshit they have the decency to be subtle about it.

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>>52211307

>Enterprise
>not terrible

>>52195995
This guy was based as fuck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVHR0UPHERQ

>>52211541
Space Goering was amazing.

>>52211541
>Pretends to be a known horrific bastard to make up for his cowardliness and unfortunate (for his job) empathy and gets himself captured so that both he and the Bajorans can get some closure on their respective traumas by executing him.

I don't think based is quite the right word. A fascinating, tragic character perhaps but probably not based.

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>>52196557
Your species isn't as much antisemitism stereotypes as it is the guys expressing them.

>>52211397

Terrible? Not really. Very mixed because of desperate executive meddling in the later seasons? Absolutely. Best? No.

>>52213050

I didn't make it to the later seasons, the first one was bad enough.

>>52214081
Skip to the Season 2 finale and start again from there. That's when it actually gets good.

>>52214575

Do they ever drop that godawful theme song? 'Cause that thing was like fingernails on a chalkboard for me.

>>52214667
No, but the mirror universe episodes have a similar opening featuring humanities wars.

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>>52207165
>>52207876

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>>52207165
>>52207876
>>52214918

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>>52207165
>>52207876
>>52214918
>>52214931

>>52196072
>kiddie gloves

*kid gloves

As in; gloves made from kid-skin (i.e. the skin of a baby goat) meaning nice, soft, white gloves of the sort one wouldn't want to get dirty.

You know those white glove Victorian gentlemen used to wear on formal occasions? Kid gloves.

>>52214667
only once for a mirror universe episode. But thanks to the future of video playback technology it can just be skipped. It's actually a pretty good show if you can get over some bad cg and green screen that's only really noticeable in a few episodes. And just skip the intro cause it never gets tolerable.

>>52204558
>>52204343
>new show
>human-Cardassian first contact
>cameo
Would you a spoonhead Kim K?

>>52196072
I've always presumed that the same weird shit that happens to and because of the Federation, happens to most interstellar nations. The Klingons probably have their own weird shit lying around, and of course we know for a fact that the Romulans do - they're the inventors of the holo-drone marauders (ENT), cloaking device (TOS), trilithium torpedo (Generations), and thalaron weapons (Nemesis), of course.

Also, to be blunt, what you're describing is basically begging to go out of control and turn on the Federation. Because that's what happens to these kinds of weapons in Star Trek.

Now that I think about it, why didn't the Federation just put the phase cloak on the Defiant instead of borrowing a Romulan cloak with a lot of strings attached?

>>52219469
Because they still had a shit-load of political strings attached due to being under treaty obligations.

>>52219469
Because the phase cloak didn't work, unless it was intentional that the Pegasus phased into a planet.

>>52219510
The phased cloak worked but damage sustained during the mutiny caused the ship to drift.

But even though it did work, it was still a massive treaty violating piece of something the feds were absolutely not going to go strapping on to a ship whilst they were still trying to maintain peaceable relations with the Romulans.

>>52219479
Which, if I recall, was mentioned only once at the very end of one episode and had absolutely no repercussions whatsoever.

You'd think they'd at least consider it when things were looking really grim in the Dominion War. It's not like they had much left to lose at that point.

>>52219510
It worked perfectly when the Enterprise used it to escape the asteroid they were trapped in.

>>52216419
Which is a completely different thing. That's why a different word was used.

>>52204645
They do have personal shields.

They're just never shown being used and only occasionally mentioned.

>>52196360
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VhSm6G7cVk

>>52220345

Shit forgot to add the rest of a post.

Insidious. Just like root beer.

>>52208719
That eye shift is beautifully done.

>>52208719
>>52220507
Well she clearly wants him to look, no fucking human being swings their ass out like a flail when sitting down. It's entirely a teehee i'm so innocuously sexy~ gesture.

She wants the D.

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>>52209502
It's true.

For the price of a Galaxy, three specialized ships can be made. The Galaxy doesn't excel in anything. It is an overbloated jack of all trade that was created to be able to answer to any situation, and wasn't really good at any. It had numerous technical issues, and was notoriously difficult to repair.

The Galaxy is the perfect example of a failed technical concept.

>>52220630
Can you drop a citation about that stuff? From what I've seen the Galaxy-class seemed like a reasonably successful line with several ships of the class having long and distinguished careers in Starfleet.

>>52208719
Seriously, SBY guys, I've heard about counter-pressure spacesuits, but if you have to put a black C-string on the outside of the thing to prevent cameltoe, you made it too damn tight for daily wear.

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>>52221274
That ain't her space suit.

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>>52221326
Then >>52208719 is... a shipboard duty uniform? WTF Japan? Does SBY keep its shipboard temperature in the mid-thirties (Celsius) and force everybody to work their station wearing nothing but body-paint?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to T&A or fanservice, but there's a time and a place for them....

>>52221422
The Yamato is powered by sexual energy.

>>52186196
That's what happens when you daisy-chain your warp cores together.

Also, reminder that Voyager decided it was a good thing to just randomly try out a shuttle THAT LITERALLY DIDN'T OBEY THE LAWS OF SPACE-TIME with no sort of oversight or safety net. And it was manned, because fuck unmanned tests, right?

They were lucky it just turned people into salamanders. I mean, it could've created a big crunch and compressed all of space into a single point a micron wide for all they knew. Hell, the ENTIRE GODDAMN THEORY behind faster than warp travel stated they would be occupying all space simultaneously, so there would logically be a chance of them crushing the universe under the weight of an infinite number of shuttles occupying every inch of known and unknown space simultaneously, which would technically mean they would have infinite mass as long as the drive was on, which can't be good.

But noooooo, fuck the universe, we have to go home!

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>>52221676
please don't remind us about that episode.

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>>52221422
Everyone? Good heavens no. Here's the male uniform.

>>52221030
A half dozen were created, and then production stopped due to the cost, the technical issues, and the fact that Starfleet priorities changed from ships doing anything to ships doing one thing really well, because of the Dominion and the Borg wars.

I always found it quite quaint. TNG's crew is running a ship that is overpriced, overbloated and overdesigned from a line that went unsuccessful. It has its charms.

>>52221847
>A half dozen were created

Seemed like there was more than that, at least in DS9's apocalyptic Dominion War fleet clashes.

>>52221694
Look, we need to accept Threshold happened and move on. We can't just pretend it didn't happen. We need to face the trauma, go "it was a horrible experience" and let ourselves feel our feelings. Otherwise it'll always be there, gnawing at the back of our minds.

You can't let Threshold have that kind of power over you.

>>52221895
I'm like 90 percent sure there's at least TEN visible on-screen in Sacrifice of Angels alone.

>>52221958
Not him, but while I really do like the Dominion War, the huge scaling up of Starfleet for it is just weird. I mean hell, the Borg chew up 40 ships and it's an existential crisis, and attempting to stop the Romulans from sending hidden supplies to the Duras family requires a "large" fleet of 20 ships, yet suddenly in the Dominion war there are thousands of vessels of all sorts mixing it up, with entire fleets of hundreds of vessels killing and being killed offscreen.

>>52222032
I can believe Starfleet ramped up production for the war, especially if the produced vessels were mostly fitted for combat rather than all the science stuff until after the war, but I do agree the sheer *amount* of ships produced is rather mindboggling. Still, though, it's enough to say that there were Galaxy batches produced after the initial six. What became of them, we don't really know, admittedly.

This is also still the first I've ever heard of the Galaxy being considered a boondoggle class with poor performance.

If I wanted to start getting into Star Trek, what order should I watch it in?

>>52222117

It all depends on if you want to watch The Original Series. It shows its age, being more than 50 years old, but it's not bad.

I started with The Next Generation, then Deep Space 9, then Voyager, and finally Enterprise (which is optional).

But yeah, TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY, in that order is the way to watch it.

>>52222075
But the problem is, a lot of that fleet seems to be there already as soon as the war breaks out. The one where they lose the 6th fleet and over 100 ships is like the third episode of the war arc, a weekish after they abandon DS9, which seems to imply they've been there all along.

>>52222169
Okay that's great. The whole thing seems so big and overwhelming and lore filled its hard to wrap your head around this cultural icon and all.

>>52221422
It's just a sexed-up version of the same uniform from the 70s. She has a far more sensible one when she was working as an analyst on Earth, complete wit classy overcoat.
>>52221696
At least they ditched the bell bottoms.

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>>52222462
>ditching bell bottoms
>good

>>52221862
https://twitter.com/realRealDukat

Every Trump tweet rewritten as Dukat.

>>52222218
>The one where they lose the 6th fleet and over 100 ships is like the third episode of the war arc, a weekish after they abandon DS9, which seems to imply they've been there all along.
Actually, it wasn't a week. It was three months. That's not *a lot* more time, but I can believe a society with replicators might be able to produce ships really fast, especially if they need to because they're at war.

>>52223143
Even if they can produce them that fast (It's been a while, this isn't intended as doubt that it was in fact 3 months), where are they going to get the crews for them all?

>>52223369
Reserves

>>52223369
The Federation has virtually no limits on manpower.
The only thing you don't get for free is the prestige of Starfleet. unlimited recruit works.

>>52184336
I enjoy that argument- but I prefer to argue an inverted premise. That image argues that the strange events are exceptional, and unusual.

What if, instead, the events are ordinary, and usual? What if every vessel in the galaxy bumps into solar jizz-rags and cannibalistic space-clouds every other week? And it's only the humans who are exceptional enough to figure it out? In plenty of episodes and books, the Enterprise and an enemy ship will be caught in some phenomenon, or they'll encounter some ship which failed to escape it, and the other ship will be utterly shafted.

What if the reason the Federation wins their conflicts isn't because their ships are more powerful or unity or anything- but because they're the only faction in the galaxy not subject to this weekly ship-attrition, slowly eating away at every single race's fleet?

>Federation Log- encountered space-bogey, successfully picked it by using the holodeck
>Romulan and Klingon and Cardassian log- lost another ship in sector X7, marking it red and diverting traffic. Ship replacement request automatically filed with the nearest shipyard.

>>52223528
>>52223528

>The Federation has virtually no limits on manpower.

You quite literally have the Romulan Senator dude from In the Pale Moonlight saying they're facing a manpower shortage (along with the shipyards not operating at full capacity, implying you can't just push a replicator button and pop out a starship), so I'm not sure about that at all.

Not to mention that a lot of the roles on a starship seem to require a lot of skill, you can't just get any idiot to recalibrate a phase-array or whatever.

>>52223143
>I can believe a society with replicators might be able to produce ships really fast, especially if they need to because they're at war.

Until you can replicate the trained personnel to man them, what you want to believe doesn't matter.

Who knows, maybe Starfleet is manning it's Dominion War zerg rush with EMH slaves.

>>52221901
In a later episode they mentioned that nobody had broken the Warp 10 barrier.

It never happened.

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>>52196276
They're federation self replicating mines, they come in peace.

>>52222032
>the Borg chew up 40 ships and it's an existential crisis

With 1 cube, they went 40 to 1 and came out basically undamaged. That's the difference, that and I suspect 40 ships dead is the largest loss the feds had basically ever had, bear in mind in TNG times they put families on those ships.

Then you have the fact that the cube immediately set course for Earth.

DS9 is a post Borg society, they ramped up R&D and production many times over post Wolf-359 because they're acutely aware it took that many ships to not even dent a cube and the Borg are in possession of probably millions of assorted vessels.

>>52226856

Good thing Voyager fucked the borg then.

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>>52223369
>where are they going to get the crews for them all?
Automate. Just figure out how to build a computer that doesn't try to kill everyone after a few minutes.

>>52227680
I'm surprised the bio-neural gel packs haven't staged a fucking rebellion yet.

>>52228216
Too busy getting sick.

>>52228216
Right? Federation can't even build a holographic entertainment system without it periodically trying to kill all life. Most semi-intelligent systems on fed ships are probably trying to kill the crews in any way they can.

Even Data was a freak accidental success made by an eccentric genius while Data's siblings were all homicidal.

>>52228352
Let's not gloss over the time Data afflicted O'Brien with a Japanese hate ghost.

>>52219067
>Also, to be blunt, what you're describing is basically begging to go out of control and turn on the Federation. Because that's what happens to these kinds of weapons in Star Trek.
The intended goal of such an invention would be to an uncontrollably destructive doomsday weapon. So what would "going out of control" even consist of, somehow making it nonviolent?

>>52222117
TNG then DS9. Maybe the original series. Voyager and Enterprise really suck dicks for the most part and retcon massive bits of the canon and/or themselves, so they can safely be ignored. If you want a bit more context for TNG, you can also watch The New Frontier, but the movies can be missed unless you just want kickass space adventures, because most of it has pretty much zero impact on the series. If you want to watch the movies, though, Khan and New Frontier are the only ones I'd absolutely recommend. Voyage Home is good, but is mostly a goofy comedy riffing on the 80s.

>>52228994
Simple: the premise was once you've built it, you send it into space with the mission:

>to remove population centers that aren't UFP.

Star Trek is the kind of universe where being hit by a meteor the wrong way or being bombarded by the right kind of radiation will change that to:

>to remove population centers

That's basically what happened to the NOMAD probe in TOS, after all.

>>52229218
...what the hell is New Frontier?

>>52229218

Undiscovered Country is pretty good, too.

>>52229388
The Mackenzie Calhoun novels.

Is Abramstrek garbage, the way Star Trek should have been, or something in between?

Discuss.

>>52230483
Abrams is garbage. He does great visual work (exception being lens flares) but other then that he's a hack.

>>52230483

With what happened to TFA, I think we can safely say that Abrams being terrible is not isolated to the Trek franchise.

I want to preface the rest of what I have to say with "I have not seen Beyond - so I'm not commenting it on it at all", but the reboots I have seen...

2009 was not good if you were a fan of TOS. If you were an average movie goer who doesn't generally watch science fiction stuff or Trek in general, it was a passable hour and a half of well paced, if braindead action.

Into Darkness is the real stinker, which is a shame because it seemed like it was going to be about something (military adventurism, the ethics of starting wars in "self defense", bloated military boondoggles and misappropriation of materials, circumvention of the democratic process, etc.) and then veers hard into "let's just redo Wrath of Khan" for no real reason. Worse, the characters in Into Darkness have no prior experience with Khan, so there's no pathos, just a bunch of dudes yelling at each other and trying to prove who has the superior penis.

It's nUhura.

That being said, I hated 2009 more than I do Into Darkness. I went into 2009 completely blind, because I'm a huge TOS fan and an idiot. I thought they were making a movie for people like me, and that's not at all what happened.

Into Darkness I expected to be bad, and wasn't disappointed, so I'm able to take enough emotional distance to appreciate some of the good ideas that were buried under the pointless "homages" to a superior film.

>>52230785
>With what happened to TFA, I think we can safely say that Abrams being terrible is not isolated to the Trek franchise.

Weirdly, I don't like any of the Abramsverse Trek movies but I did enjoy TFA.

>>52230946

It could be that he gets Star Wars in a way he doesn't get Trek. He's a fan of Star Wars, and one thing Abrams is very good at is emulating other people's styles.

He doesn't care for Trek, and it shows.

>>52230785
Beyond was fucking awful.
Enterprise gets destroyed in the first act.
Boring plot that was almost the same as Into Darkness.
Shitty generic villain with shitty generic swarm of small spaceships evil.
and that's just the biggest problems.

>>52231016
>Enterprise gets destroyed in the first act.

I love how this isn't even a spoiler.

>>52231016

I've been avoiding watching it until I can find it cheap on DVD or something. I've heard plenty of people say "It's good! It's like a fun episode of TOS!" but I remember people defending Into Darkness too.

>>52231055

I was pleased to see that POS get ripped up in the trailers. Perhaps because I'm spiteful and churlish, but also because I think it looks bad for a number of reasons.

>>52165469
Should've left that garden alone.

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>>52170164

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>>52231115
I will talk shit about the JJ movies all day but I do like its Enterprise.

>>52230483
If Beyond counts despite not being Abrams, it's sort of in a weird middle space. First one was decent. Second was ass. Third was pretty good.

It's not traditional Star Trek, but I would argue that none of the previous movies were either. And "traditional" Star Trek doesn't really work in a movie format, because almost nobody wants to sit through a two hour episode of Star Trek. Now, whether this is a sign you shouldn't make Star Trek movies at all, or whether it just means you need to make a different type of Star Trek movie is up to each person to decide.

One thing is certain, though. Whether you liked them or hated them, those movies revitalized a dead franchise, and at the very least that places them head and shoulders over the shitty TNG movies that were just there so the cast could indulge in their unfulfilled childhood fantasies of riding dune buggies or whatever.

>>52231295

I wish I could like it. But... I don't like how the deflector sticks so far forward. I don't like the nacelle pylons being back, but tiny at the top. Worse, the concave curve of the pylons makes it look goofy.

It's proportions are too off-putting for me. The small details are good, and I might have even been able to get behind the "ample nacelles", but the aforementioned stuff just rubs me the wrong way.

It doesn't help that it's bigger than a Galaxy class for literally no reason other than "bigger is better".

>>52231295
It's too big for my tastes. Not quite a fan of the secondary hull design either.

I do like how its phasers and torpedoes work though.

>>52231402
>>52231419
I like the profile and the weapons but I don't fault people who don't like it especially if they think its too big. The main problem in all 3 movies is that shit is way to big.

>>52231391

>"traditional" Trek

You're right. It doesn't work in movie format. This is proven by the Slow Motion Picture, God Needs a Starship, and Klingon 2nd Puberty. Worse, all of those are BAD episodes, rather than good ones.

However, the other TNG movies just aren't really about anything. They don't do anything interesting with the franchise, and only First Contact is enjoyable as a space action flick.

Contrast this directly with the other TMP era movies. Wrath of Khan is about old age, relevance, obsession, exile from heaven, heroism in the face of death, loss, grief, and has had its revenge plot and Moby Dick references copied to the point that it's hard not to hate Trek films that retread that same ground.

The Search for Spock continues the themes of age and relevance, grief and loss, but also everything having their time (in the destruction of the Enterprise), hope and friendship, and how far loyalty to a comrade can or even should be taken.

The Voyage Home is about identity, specifically Spock's identity. And also whales. People liked whales in the 80s.

The Undiscovered Country is about the fear of change, the fear that the status quo will go away and everything will be uncertain. It's also about hate, the loss of purpose, patriotism and what constitutes betrayal of one's nation, one's principles, and how all this can make strange bedfellows.

The reboot movies also aren't really about anything (again, haven't seen Beyond). Into Darkness had pretenses of such, but decided to play it safe and smirk at the screen saying "Remember this?" with all its references to things that had come before.

Sure, it brought Trek the movie franchise back from the dead. But Trek would have come back eventually. There's no way CBS or Paramount would keep such a recognizable brand locked away forever. What brought Trek back was a brain dead insistence on spectacle and reference over substance.

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>>52231716
>>"traditional" Trek
>
>You're right. It doesn't work in movie format.

>>52231716
>Klingon 2nd Puberty
Insurrection?

>>52231716
I actually didn't hate Nemesis either. The plot was mostly forgettable (lel cloning blues and biogenic weapons) but I enjoyed the Sovereign refit in action and the new Romulan ships (not that big a fan of the Scimitar, though).

>>52231788

You know, I want to see the Hiigarans on Star Trek now. I don't care that crossovers almost always suck.

>>52231788

I haven't seen it. I don't generally go to the theater anymore or pay attention to movie trailers. But if you're recommending it to me, I might give it go.

>>52231801

If you'd like to give a comedy name that's more fitting, be my guest. I just happened to remember that was a thing in Insurrection.

>>52231816

The spectacle and special effects are fine. The makeup effects are also top notch. There's even pretty good stuff between Shinzon and Picard.

... But I defy you to find an overarching theme to that movie, or what the hell it was about aside from "I need thing Picard has, or will die, but REVENGE! is more important".

>>52231842
>or what the hell it was about aside from "I need thing Picard has, or will die, but REVENGE! is more important"

Also something something maybe the Romulans can actually learn to stop being dicks, iirc. But you're right, really, there wasn't much depth to the plot.

>>52231902

There was also a little bit about Data's journey to be human with the whole sacrificing himself to save Picard and the Enterprise, but it feels flaccid and unsatisfying.

>>52231829
Heptapods are a cargo cult made up entirely of precognitives.

Give them a pile of random mechanical junk. They wouldn't know how any of it worked, but they could assemble working machines by looking ahead to see every potential future where they stick the pieces together randomly, selecting the future in which the randomly assembled junk coincidentally takes the form of whatever machine they wanted, then repeating exactly what they saw themselves doing in that future so it ends up being the future that actually comes to pass.

>>52231988

So, the Pakled, but interesting?

>>52231295
I'll give the Abramsprise this: at least it's not as fuck-ugly as USS Vengeance.

>>52232030
>USS Vengeance
It's a little too big and the hole in the saucer is a little odd but I'm a sucker for intimidating gun covered warships.

>>52232030
The saucer is too wide and that gap in the middle is just fucking stupid, but everything else is solid
Honestly those issues aside I prefer the Vengeance over the NuEnterprise. I think Abrams either got confused or just plain didn't give a shit that those movies were set in Trek's past, and everything should have been a bit blockier to fit in with the 60's aesthetic

>>52223938
>Until you can replicate the trained personnel to man them, what you want to believe doesn't matter.

They can. It's called a "transporter accident."

>>52231716
>The reboot movies also aren't really about anything (again, haven't seen Beyond)

Star Trek Beyond was mostly centered on trying to find your place in the world, trying to both live up to the expectations of the past and the legacy that's been left behind for you, without being drowned by that legacy or becoming corrupted by it.

>>52231842
>If you'd like to give a comedy name that's more fitting, be my guest. I just happened to remember that was a thing in Insurrection.

I personally just call it the Worst One. Space Luddites is also a good name for it.

>>52231055
>I love how this isn't even a spoiler.

It's kind of part of the basic premise of the movie.

>>52231988

I admit, I haven't seen the movie and was thinking of the Homeworld game because of a superficial resemblance of the ship.

But like, something of the Enterprise blundering into a Garden of Kadesh situation at least has potential, or at least it does to me now, but I'm a bit drunk, so maybe it's actually a terrible idea.

>>52232502
Wait, was it Insurrection that was the one where Picard decides that literal immortality/a cure for damn near every illness under the sun for billions if not trillions of Federation citizens is worth less to him than the sleep lost from being barely complicit in experimentation on a single planet?

>>52232502
Don't forget the manual steering column.

>>52232576
Yeah.

Why are you incredulous? Picard was perfectly willing to drive by a planet that was going to explode and have billions die because of Muh Prime Directive. Trek morality is fucked up.

>>52232675
The Prime Directive is such bullshit.

I mean yeah, I get the logic behind "you don't get to judge other cultures through the lens of your own". But preventing fucking atrocities is not cultural contamination, and fuck everybody who thinks otherwise.

>>52232606
That's not nearly the worst thing in the movie. I approve of silliness in Trek.

>>52232675
With the Prime Directive excuse I can at least buy the idea that Picard felt the need to stick to the rules. He was very much that kind of captain, and most of the time the PD was violated over the years was due to accidents or unavoidable circumstances. Picard was in a trolley problem situation, where his standing orders were leave the switch alone no matter how many bodies are laying on the other track

Insurrection just feels out of place, Picard disobeying orders because he's rediscovered his rebellious youth is a fucktarded excuse and the movie never even tried to pretend it was giving the "this will benefit literal trillions at the expense of a few thousand people, and even then its possible they might be fine" argument a fair shake

>>52232739

I'm paraphrasing, but Kirk said basically in a similar situation "If the choice is between saving them and having their culture be forever contaminated, and letting them die - then we have to save them and live with the consequences. It's the only humane choice."

It's always frustrated me that TNG, twenty years later, doesn't understand this basic idea.

>>52232739
Its a different problem when you can ride in on flying chariots spitting thunder and lightning down on those beneath you
The Prime Directive is less about cultural contamination as it is about not making yourself an Outside Context Problem for a civilization. That and the fact that captains who break the PD for good cause tend to get away with it shows that Starfleet is at least open to an argument from an ethical perspective

>>52232739
That's why Dukat is a hero who did nothing wrong: he came to Bajor and broke down their oppressive caste-based religious culture and tried to replace it with the superior culture of the Cardassians, with their flawless legal system that is never wrong and always gets its culprit and unconditional loyalty to the state.

The Federation was content to just sit by and do fucking nothing except suck their own dicks while Bajorans sat in the mud like ignorant children.

Truly Dukat deserves props for shouldering the Cardassian's burden.

>>52232843
>That and the fact that captains who break the PD for good cause tend to get away with it
What about captains like Janeway that refuse to avert planetary extinction events and then sit back with a big bucket of fireworks to watch the xenocide and listen to the primitives' feeble cries for mercy from an uncaring diety?

>>52232739
>But preventing fucking atrocities

The original wording of the Prime Directive was that Starfleet would not intervene in the natural development of viable, pre-warp cultures. So you'll note that, for example, the original Prime Directive...

a) does not govern interaction with, for example, the Klingons or Romulans, in any way;
b) would not in any way prevent the Federation from intervening in, say, a comet about to impact a pre-warp planet, or a culture that would if left to its own devices eventually destroy itself (RE: TOS, "A Piece of the Action")

Evidently that changed over time, but I always preferred the TOS version.

However, when you say "atrocity"...well, let's take Earth's history for example. Say the Federation encountered a planet that was basically undergoing its own version of World War I: so a massive global conflict claiming millions of lives, where neither side can really be claimed to be "better" or "worse" than the other. Should the Federation intervene?

>>52232886
They get promoted to Admiral.

>>52232886
You remember how, particularly in the OT, every other episode or so started with the Enterprise being at a Fed StarBase? Or how in TNG they specifically highlighted the role of a ships councilor as a moral compass for the bridge staff?
Yeah, Janeway is a prime example of why that shit is necessary. Turns out if you let a starship captain float too long in absolute command of all they survey it goes to their head pretty damn quickly. We're just lucky Janeway got her jollies watching planets burn while pretending the PD said she couldn't help. A lot of other captains would have returned to the Alpha Quadrant a new Caesar at best, and more likely a spaceborne Genghis Khan

>>52232914
>Say the Federation encountered a planet that was basically undergoing its own version of World War I: so a massive global conflict claiming millions of lives, where neither side can really be claimed to be "better" or "worse" than the other. Should the Federation intervene?

Since the Federation would trip over itself to suck both side's dicks if the planet had passed the magical threshold of being warp capable, this is a really bullshit question. It's not your fault that it's bullshit.

But like, this is the threshold for non-interference. Having a working warp drive of any kind. Humans had nuked themselves to the fucking stone age when some hobo in the woods built human babby's first warp drive from a box of scraps.

>>52232914
>Should the Federation intervene?

Absolutely. Not even a question.

>>52166276
*stupid.

Don't be so english.

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>>52232948
>Janeway returns as Space Genghis Khan
Fucking sold. That would be a great Trek adventure: a mad captain lost on the far side of the galaxy returns at the head of an armada to conquer the federation. Through cunning, technological trickery and sheer will she's welded together a vast alliance of alien cultures, all bound to their belief in her as the ultimate leader and the promise of endless conquest. While the aliens are primitive, individually each culture had certain massive advancements which have been reforged into an invincible empire.
Dominion War 2.0 baby.

>>52232993
Okay, on which side? Or do they choose neither side and instead impose themselves on the planet?

>>52233043
>Fucking sold. That would be a great Trek adventure: a mad captain lost on the far side of the galaxy returns at the head of an armada to conquer the federation.

That was called Star Trek Beyond.

>>52232948
>Janeway got her jollies watching planets burn while pretending the PD said she couldn't help
You forgot about her hobby of torturing Harry Kim and Tom Paris, AKA "Wooden Organism Designed only for Suffering" and "Trek Era's Leonardo", respectively.

>>52232993
In a pre-warp culture, where there's no clear side? What would they do, beam up the leaders of each nation involved and force them to negotiate at gunpoint? No government would accept such an armistice, even if they did believe the wild tales of being taken in the night by aliens and being forced to make peace. At best, in a democratic society, the leader you abducted is removed from office and treated for severe psychological disturbance. At worst, assuming a relatively autocratic state, you ignite a civil war as the military refuses to accept the seemingly insane decisions made by its leadership.
And it gets infinitely worse if the Feds go boots on the ground and try to blue helmet the situation. Fed Marines dying in the mud and blood of another world to stop two tribes of pre-warp idiots from killing each other will not play well

>>52233077
>Fed Marines

Do those actually exist in canon? I've only ever seen them come up as part of furries wanking their way into Trek.

>>52233077
Precision target every armed WMD installation on the planet and destroy them. Easily within the capabilities of Federation starships.

>>52233044
>choose neither side and instead impose themselves on the planet?

This.

>>52232993
How, exactly would you want an alien civilization to have intervened in WWI?

>>52233061
I thought that was Idris Elba and his Drone Army? I haven't seen it.

>>52233118
Phasering Berlin off the map might have gone a ways towards preventing WW2 and Angela Merkel, for a start.

>>52233139
Yeah, but Idris Elba was a Starfleet captain lost in deep space who went batshit insane.

Also jsut fucking watch the damn movie, it's the best Trek movie since First Contact. Hell, it's better than First Contact.

>>52233113
So you'd have the Federation be a conquering superpower that imposes its will on anyone weaker than it?

I feel you don't understand Star Trek.

>>52233139
>Idris Elba
Utterly fucking wasted in that role. Between the ridiculous demonic voice distortion and the massive rubber forehead, you might as well say "fuck it" and see if Ron Perlman or Andy Serkis wants to do yet another film buried under rubber prosthetics.

>>52233152

That would have left the Soviet Union much stronger though. Where would the alien interventions end?

>>52233189
>So you'd have the Federation be a conquering superpower that imposes its will on anyone weaker than it?

Who's conquering anything?

>>52233113
>Starfleet should outright go to war with and subsequently subjugate pre-warp civilizations because this is somehow ethical.

Neocons in space. Outcome: Space ISIS

>>52233077
Technically the "beam up the leaders" thing worked in "A Piece of the Action" with the Iotians, but only because Kirk had all the bosses convinced that the Federation was taking over the planet and would be expected a cut of the profits (40%, specifically), and also only because that was the only way he could rationalize with the Iotian culture (which was based off of 1930s gangster lore).

>>52233207
See >>52233206. There's no conquest here. It's an emergency intercession likely followed by an intermediation, at which point the Federation could either fall back or deliver further help if requested.

>>52233190
You realize that by the end of the movie, he has almost no prosthetics, right?

>>52233240
And by then he has, what, six lines? He spent most of the movie being utterly wasted.

>>52233206
So you'd have the Federation swoop in, decapitate multiple governments in one fell swoop, then fuck off and not even take responsibility?

>>52233233
Because that works so well in real life.

>>52223544
You're forgetting the number of times both Enterprises ran into other Federation ships that had gotten buttfucked by anomalies too.

>>52233256
In real life you can't precision knock out every ICBM silo or arrive instantly anywhere on the planet to discuss matters, so...

>>52233249
>decapitate multiple governments

That's not what's happening here, please read again. It's not like they'd be nuking the presidential palaces, it'd be getting the killing to stop for long enough that intermediation can happen.

>>52233226
And Kirk got lucky he was dealing with a culture where strongarming the leadership like that would actually work
In anything resembling a sane society that would never have stuck

>>52233294
>getting the killing to stop for long enough
And how do you intend to accomplish that without going full Blue Helmet and getting stuck in a political quagmire, trying to keep two sides apart while starting negotiations neither side wants to attend?

>>52231295
It had a fucking shit Engineering section.

>>52233294
>In real life you can't precision knock out every ICBM silo or arrive instantly anywhere on the planet to discuss matters, so...

In real life there are ways to secure tactical advantages like that. Best case scenario is that the nation spends the next 20 or 30 years gearing up to go at it with you again (RE: France after the Franco-Prussian War). Worst case scenario is exactly that happens, but the nation gets friends to help it, too.

>>52233322
The kind of shows of power possible are at least going to buy you a good few hours to days.

>>52233343
Solving that problem is the task of the diplomacy boys.

>>52230785
>"I have not seen Beyond - so I'm not commenting it on it at all"
Take a good fun episode of Star Gate SG1 that involves use of a 'borrowed' goa'uld ship.
Then replace everyone with Nu Trek characters, the Goa'uld ships with star fleet ones and give it a budget of 180 million.

>>52233344
Also ship phasers on stun are a thing.

>>52186038
Notice he compared humans to other species. "Humans become Klingons if you disturb them, and you're admiring disturbed humans. They are dangerous like every other species Ferengi normally keep at a distance."

>>52233368
And it never, ever, ever works.

>>52233397
I'm sure it can given the kinds of factors that can be brought to bear. Though I suppose for drama you have a point.

>>52233344
Which will achieve nothing because neither side wants peace, and forcing them to the negotiating table will do nothing to change it
Hell if anything it might harden their stances on the war, whereas unmitigated slaughter would cause them to reevaluate their political stances
What right does the Federation have to deny a culture that vital experience?

>>52233425
>What right does the Federation have to deny a culture that vital experience?

Oh yes how dare the Federation deny them their god-given right to use nukes on population centers or massacre each other with all the import of an assembly line.

I'll say this. It fucking worked (at least, for a while) when the Organians did it.

>>52233473
I said WWI. No nukes in play yet. For the purposes of this discussion, let's just assume that we're dealing with the literal Entante and the literal Alliance.

>(at least, for a while)

That's the thing - "for a while". Not even very long, a few decades at most.

>>52233502
>Not even very long, a few decades at most.

Which always made me wonder why the Organians didn't come back and kick the Federation and Klingons' teeth in after they started that shit again.

>>52233502
>Not even very long, a few decades at most.

Even that is a better result than proposed, and while it had pitfalls, a lot of the time after TOS the Klingons and Federation are allied.

>>52233425
>>52233344
The best case outcome is that both sides make public the intervention by a hostile alien force, sign an armistice, don't decide to immediately recommence hostilities once the federation is gone.

Now you have a planet, still with nations with hostile intent towards each-other who've been attacked by aliens and have the greatest motivation that could possibly exist to develop and amass the most powerful weapons they can and to put them all over their planet and all over space in case the federation decides to show up and violate their sovereignty again.

It's a recipe for creating an intensely dangerous situation on a pre-warp planet, which would at best result in a warp capable civilization that has a built in hatred of the federation.

>>52233540
And a lot of times they're not. The Organian Peace Treaty only prevented conflict for a few decades. Both sides still engaged in constant cold war activities. The Klingons and Federation were back to the verge of open war by the time of The Search for Spock, which only ended with the signing of the Khitomer Accords.

But even those were on the verge of breaking down around sixty years later, until the Enterprise-C helped a Klingon colony defend itself from Romulans. That bought the Federation a few more decades of peace, but that broke down, too, during the events of Deep Space 9.

After DS9/VOY, you can pick your poison for the timeline you prefer - Star Trek Online or the novels - but in either case the Klingons and the Federation are butting heads again (it takes a bit longer in STO than the novels, surprisingly enough).

The Klingon Empire is fundamentally antithetical to the Federation. Permanent peace between the two is impossible. Sooner or later, one of them is going to have to give.

>>52233587
That's again where the diplomacy and mediation comes in. You get people to stop shooting each other long enough to hear you out, and work these things through.

I don't entirely blame a lot of you for thinking this overly optimistic, but hell. Star Trek has a lot of that optimism in its heritage.

>>52233519

It was the Romulans, actually. The Neutral Zone is the Organians' doing.

>>52233638
The federation would trying to mediate in a conflict in which they themselves are the ultimate aggressor.

>>52233659
>The Neutral Zone is the Organians' doing.

...No it isn't; the Neutral Zone was established after the Earth-Romulan War in the 22nd century. Organians was Feds and Klingons.

>>52233666
I just refuse to consider bringing a halt to violent hostilities in any way an act of aggression.

>>52233638
>Star Trek has a lot of that optimism in its heritage.

It does, but the Prime Directive's "hands off" policy when approaching pre-warp cultures is the dash of realism that is necessary. I have no objection to optimism; I'm with Winston Churchill on the matter. But that doesn't mean casually disregarding the basic human(oid) condition.

>>52233710
I just don't agree. I feel as though it's an immoral and counterintuitive policy that is horribly misapplied in the TNG era especially.

>>52233690
But it's not about what you'd consider concerning World War I. It's about how the British Empire, Third French Republic, Russian Empire, Kingdom of Italy, Second German Reich, Austro-Hungarian Empire, Ottoman Empire, United States of America, Empire of Japan, and Republic of China - and assorted other belligerents - would consider of you.

>>52233690
>I just refuse to consider bringing a halt to violent hostilities in any way an act of aggression.
Then you're stupid. Aliens showing up and carrying out mass bombing of military bases would be an act of aggression on an unprecedented scale regardless of what intent they claim.

An attack is an attack.

>>52233690
>I just refuse to consider bringing a halt to violent hostilities in any way an act of aggression.
It is if those hostilities do not, in any way shape of form, impinge upon you or your society.
Intervening purely to soothe your trouble conscience, in a way that completely steps over and ignores the people you're claiming to want to help, is an act of aggression however you cut it
An act of tremendous arrogance too, in case that wasn't clear

>>52233749
And that is, again, what diplomacy is for. Make them understand that all you want is for them to stop killing each other and that you can help them overcome the problems that led them down the path to war.

>>52233767
>An attack is an attack.

Sometimes it just comes down to math. A few people in a base versus literally millions. And hell, even that can be limited with advance warning. Preventing total destruction of a species is not an act of aggression.

>>52233724
Its a little too strict in TNG but its not about restraining captains from interfering in atrocities, its about stopping captains from exacerbating them or worse performing their own atrocities on a population that cannot even understand WHAT is happening to them, let alone how to stop it

>>52233795
>Make them understand that all you want is for them to stop killing each other and that you can help them overcome the problems that led them down the path to war.

The national honor of France is on the line, you fool. The Prussians - now the Second German Reich - utterly humiliated them within living memory during the Franco-Prussian War. And already millions of Frenchman have died in the trenches. That is supposed to simply be forgotten?!

>>52233787
>An act of tremendous arrogance too, in case that wasn't clear

Millions of lives not lost, war averted, a species doesn't die out? If that's arrogant, than it is what it is.

>>52233795
So you end up forcibly uplifting them? Or give a culture that was actively at war not too long ago the kinds of advanced technologies that render conflict obsolete?
You really don't see the problems with that policy, just how badly that could be turned around into further, far more destructive, warfare?

And, again, you are misunderstanding the issue. This isn't global thermonuclear war, this is a WW1 style conflict. Yes, millions are dying, but its hardly an existential threat to an entire people

>>52233834
Maybe first set aside notions of "national honor", as this is clearly causing more problems for everyone than it's worth.

>>52233861
>Yes, millions are dying, but its hardly an existential threat to an entire people

Who's to say?

>You really don't see the problems with that policy, just how badly that could be turned around into further, far more destructive, warfare?

Could? Sure. But that's on the people handling the issue. Hell a technological exchange doesn't even need to be part of it, I'd figure.

>>52233852
No one is talking about a species dying out, that's not what the discussion is about, so please stop it with the false appeal and escalation
And it is arrogance. Who are you, a complete stranger to this planet and its politics, to decide for these people what causes are and are not worth fighting for? You, in your post-nationalist space faring bubble trawling the stars in pursuit of poor little mud-dwellers to look after, because of course only savages could consider petty things like "nations" or "kings" or "borders" to be worth fighting over
Christ, you can't even see how disgustingly paternal this is can you?

>>52233908
I can see how it could be construed that way. I'm saying I don't care. The point is to save people. It could breed some resentment, sure. But that is a *solvable* problem. You can't bring back the dead (most of the time).

>>52233905
>Hell a technological exchange doesn't even need to be part of it, I'd figure.
So you'd just plant the Fed flag in the dirt around your facilities that, to the people you are trying to help, may as well piss ambrosia and manna straight from God's own teats, and then refuse to let them control it? I'm impressed, your managing to violate almost every element of a societies basic sovereignty. What next, using brain washing to ensure that the leadership goes along with your plans?

>>52233861
>So you end up forcibly uplifting them?

In real life, Japan is probably the shining example of why this is a bad idea.

In 1841 Japan was a glorified high-Renaissance nation, centuries behind Europe. By 1941 they were one of the top five or six most powerful nations on the planet and had one of the two or three most technologically advanced navies.

The thing is their culture did not advance at pace with their technology. Fundamentally Japan retained a basically Medieval mindset and approach to both themselves and the outside world. The end result was their honor code forcing them into declaring a war against a nation that they could not possibly hope to overcome, and brought them to the brink of national suicide - as well as actually driving many of them to commit actual suicide the way their honor code demanded, at Okinawa, Iwo Jima, and of course the Kamikaze pilots.

>>52233946
You realize that it's possible to resolve issues that lead to specific instances of war, even large wars, without necessarily bringing in advanced super technologies, right?

>>52233940
Its not your right to chose who gets saved
Your not god, the very fact you need a starship to do all this is proof enough of that. If these people want to go to war with each other over who gets to own which parts of their own planet without involving the outside galaxy, then why make it your problem?

>>52231842
>I haven't seen it. I don't generally go to the theater anymore or pay attention to movie trailers. But if you're recommending it to me, I might give it go.

Arrival is the best scifi in a few years.
A little cliche at points, but damn its good.

>>52233795
>Preventing total destruction of a species is not an act of aggression.
A military action that doesn't have the justification of self defense is the definition of a war of aggression.

Nobody cares what the intent behind that attack is, what they would care about is that an incredibly powerful alien civilization, showed up to their planet which posed no threat to them in any way, attacked the military forces of every nation without any provocation and then demands that the nations that they attacked behave in a particular way, because "morals".

I mean if you're trying to establish the federation as the greatest existential threat that planet has ever known so they unite against the tyranny of alien civilizations that want to attack them and violate their sovereignty on a whim then this would be a pretty good way to do that, but I don't think that's really what they're going for.

>>52233905
Millions of people dying in a conflict like the first or second world war is not an existential threat to a civilization of billions. The idea that it is just doesn't add up mathematically.

>>52234087
>A military action that doesn't have the justification of self defense is the definition of a war of aggression.

Arguably at best, and even then, it sure as hell ain't one in principle.

>Nobody cares what the intent behind that attack is, what they would care about is that an incredibly powerful alien civilization, showed up to their planet which posed no threat to them in any way, attacked the military forces of every nation without any provocation and then demands that the nations that they attacked behave in a particular way, because "morals".

So you're saying that ensuring that millions of people, possibly tens of millions, do NOT die...is shaky or questionable morality. Okay. Sure.

I really do think that the intent absolutely matters, and would be taken into account once diplomacy begins. It's optimistic, I'll grant that. But I think it fits.

>>52234120
Right, but consider what could have come about.

>>52232876
"Take up the gray man's burden,
Send forth the best ye breed,
Come bind your sons to exile,
to serve your Captives' need."

>>52234129
>Arguably at best, and even then, it sure as hell ain't one in principle.
It's literally the definition of a war of aggression. That's not a literally (figuratively), it's actually what the definition of a war of aggression is.

You're using logic that is used to justify the disastrous interventionist policies of the US which have led to destabilization of entire regions of the world and created regimes and organizations that are objectively worse than what previously existed there.

If you attack someone without provocation you're now an aggressor, if you're using military force to coerce a nation into doing what you want, you're violating their sovereignty and right to self determination.

You can't claim to be the moral authority when you've shot someone and still have a gun to their head.

>>52234087
>>52234299

This, frankly.

Why is anyone talking about an attack with actual weapons?

Like, this is Star Trek. Star Trek technology is effectively divinity to an early 20th century tech base.

Do you guys not understand?

Over the course of three hours, every weapon in every military base on the planet disappears in a shimmer of light.

Every town square has food and medical supplies appear from thin air (as well as 400 years more advanced propaganda booklets).

The leaders are beamed up into a holodeck to speak with the aliens. One tries to stab one in a secret attack only to go right through because it is a simulation. They assume this means the aliens are invulnerable or energy-based.

I can go on. It is legitimately trivial.

There was an episode of TNG about something like this, where a woman pretended to be effectively Space!Devil to convince a planet they had sold their souls to her a thousand years ago and she was there to collect. She used holograms, tractor beams and transporters to basically act like discount Q. It took the Enterprise half the episode to figure it out, and they had the same or better technology! Plus they were protagonists!

WW1 scrubs have literally no chance.

>>52234299
>You're using logic that is used to justify the disastrous interventionist policies of the US which have led to destabilization of entire regions of the world and created regimes and organizations that are objectively worse than what previously existed there.

Completely different and inapplicable scenario. The U.S. doesn't have stun phasers or transporters. Its motives also were not nearly as pure, in all likelihood.

>You can't claim to be the moral authority when you've shot someone and still have a gun to their head.

Suppose your attack had zero actual casualties. Suppose it wasn't even a conventional attack as the people on-world can really understand it. What then?

>>52234376
>Why is anyone talking about an attack with actual weapons?

Mostly because it's yet one method of disabling important weapon sites, even in a non-nuclear apocalyptic war like WWI. But as I also said, you're right--a traditional "attack" need not even be part of it.

>>52234392

What happens when one of them (the aliens you're giving a learnin' to) kills one of your Red Shirts?

>>52234392
>What then?
You're still using force to coerce a nation in to doing what you want them to do, which is a clear violation of their sovereignty.

Here's a better question, what would the federation do if all the involved parties completely rejected the idea of a negotiated peace at that point in time, agreed that the war should continue and condemned the federation as an aggressor with no right to involve themselves in a conflict that doesn't concern them?

>>52234376
>It took the Enterprise half the episode to figure it out,

Well, to be fair, it takes a half an episode for anything to get accomplished because that's the episode format.

>>52232675
Have you seen plinketts review? Picard is perfectly fine following orders to farce a bunch of Federation citizens from their planet (the one with Wesley and the Indians) but not fine with doing the exact same thing in the movie
The prime directive doesn't even apply because the space Amish were demonstrably warp-capable

>>52234425

Why would they a) ever actually be in the same room when holograms exist? or b) have any weapons when they are scanned to the subatomic level before being allowed anywhere near?

>>52234376
That does not change the fundamental principle, however - you're intervening in a situation you probably don't have nearly enough context for and imposing your will on people who almost certainly don't want you there.

And I do mean "people", not merely governments. The average Frenchman on the street of Paris probably hated the Germans more than anyone in his government did.

>>52234466

For the same reason the captain likes to beam down on the same away mission as the chief medical officer, the XO, and the chief engineer. It's TV genre fiction.

>>52234466
>Why would they a) ever actually be in the same room when holograms exist? or b) have any weapons when they are scanned to the subatomic level before being allowed anywhere near?

So you're never even once going to set foot on the planet you've effectively conquered?

Also, you're falling into a classic trap. You're reading "primitive" and assuming that it's synonymous with "stupid".

>>52234425
>Stopping wars might be dangerous business

You don't say? Yes, that would suck, but the mission has to go on, as it always does on Star Trek despite redshirts going down.

>>52234455
>You're still using force to coerce a nation in to doing what you want them to do, which is a clear violation of their sovereignty.

I feel like this has been a fairly good argument for sovereignty being massively overrated, honestly.

>Here's a better question, what would the federation do if all the involved parties completely rejected the idea of a negotiated peace at that point in time, agreed that the war should continue and condemned the federation as an aggressor with no right to involve themselves in a conflict that doesn't concern them?

I find that a somewhat unlikely scenario, but not totally impossible. I could see certain kinds of bribery going down in that scenario.

>>52234467

By 1917, every single person involved in WW1 wanted to war to end by any means necessary.

It doesn't take long in one of these conflicts before everyone learns that old lie, Dulce et decorum est...

>>52234489

You aren't understanding the gap here. You really aren't.

A WW1 tech base has balsa wood biplanes.

Star Trek technology can re-ignite suns.

The gap here isn't even the gap between Conquistadors and natives. Conquistadors were still people.

This is a medieval yeoman archer versus an F-22 at 14,000 feet. Not only will he not even see what is killing him, if he was standing three feet away, he still couldn't do more than scratch the paint.

There is a certain point of power difference where being clever doesn't really matter. As the big guy said, you can't outsmart a bullet.

The only reason people actually die on primative planets in the series is because they have to be dumb for the sake of plot. They canonically have personal forcefields (which they never use) and can project holograms from orbit at personal scale (plot point in at least 5 episodes). That's not even getting to how 'ship weapons set to stun' or 'transporters' are perfect crowd control with 0% chance to be countered ever, or how starship sensors make Panopticon cry in its sleep.

The power gap here is too large for anything other that plot-induced incompetence to have any chance of even mildly inconveniencing the Star Trek level party.

>>52234455
>You're still using force to coerce a nation in to doing what you want them to do, which is a clear violation of their sovereignty.
In this situation the federation is violating the sovereignty of every state involved in the conflict, which in the case of a world war would be most of the states on the planet.

The entire idea is based on the notion that the weak have the moral judgements of the strong enforced on them at gunpoint. The person with the biggest guns inherently has the greatest moral authority.

>>52234554
>The power gap here is too large for anything other that plot-induced incompetence to have any chance of even mildly inconveniencing the Star Trek level party.

Gotta admit though, plot-induced incompetence does seem to strike hilariously often in these scenarios.

>>52234580

Notice how they never bothered to show the first 45 years of the Cardassian Occupation of Bajor?

That's because when it doesn't happen, its boring. Entertainment requires conflict, and if there's no conflict, there's no show.

>>52234576
>The entire idea is based on the notion that the weak have the moral judgements of the strong enforced on them at gunpoint. The person with the biggest guns inherently has the greatest moral authority.

Suppose then that it was said straight up that the Federation was willing to capitulate if there well and truly was *nobody* willing to stop the war, and that no further actions of that nature would be taken. Though, perhaps some final parting words of warning as to where their civilization might end up if they keep on going this way.

>>52233952
They declared war on us because we were embargoing their oil, dude, and the didn't even declare war, they tried to kill our entire Pacific fleet first. That's not honor, that's realpolitik and pragmatism

>>52234627
Also Japan made its empire BECAUSE of a cultural change, really. Sorta. The thinking was basically "All these powers in the West have their overseas empires. In order for them to take us seriously, we also need an overseas empire. A big one."

>>52234604
>where their civilization might end up if they keep on going this way.
You mean as the leaders of a huge, interstellar civilization comprised of multiple peacefully cooperating species?

>>52234554
>By 1917, every single person involved in WW1 wanted to war to end by any means necessary.

But not in 1916, 1915, and emphatically not in 1914. You also seem to forget that the sudden and unexpected end to World War I without a clear, decisive defeat, to the German way of thinking, was the direct cause of World War II, while Italy not getting what it wanted out of the war despite being a supposed victor lead to the rise of Benito Mussolini and Fascism. I could go on about the other factors that led the general clusterfuck that was 1920s and 1930s Europe, and the world as a whole.

Try paying less attention to the technology and more to the psychology.

>>52234664
Or a choked, chemically poisoned wasteland? I mean, are we or are we not assuming a WWI scenario wherein nobody is weary of war and everybody involved wants it to continue?

>>52234701
>But not in 1916

I would beg to differ on that one. A lot of the war's nastier moments happened in 1916.