Why do people complain about "murderhobos" in D&D

Because even those archetypal adventurers have connections to the setting and things they care about.

Murderhobo adventurers, whether through a lack of player interest or a defence mechanism against awful GMs, actively eschew all forms of investment in the setting, ensure there is nothing to get in their way/overcomplicate things/that the GM can use against them.

If that is the tone of the game, fine. People who bellyache about murderhobos usually mean those that are clashing with the game itself, e.g. an intrigue game where collateral damage man can't keep his sword in his pants and out of key assets' bodies.

>>52148266
For probably 70% of the time, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser cared about literally nothing but themselves and each other. And occasionally doing missions for their patrons.
>>52148359
That's reasonable.

>>52148232

Because the culture of the game has evolved and is no longer what it once was. Old School dnd was a lot more kick down the door and kill shit before taking the treasure. New dnd is becoming more and more about narrative.

If you are playing more of a dungeon crawl there is nothing wrong with "murder hobos", but if you are trying to play a narrative campaign and the rogue keeps shanking people and stealing their shit it becomes a problem.

>>52148397
>Old School dnd was a lot more kick down the door and kill shit before taking the treasure.
No, it wasn't.

>>52148389
>For probably 70% of the time, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser cared about literally nothing but themselves and each other. And occasionally doing missions for their patrons.

And for 30% of the time they don't. Murderhobos on the other hand as much closer to 100%.

That's what millennial sperglords and their binary thinking have trouble understanding. It's never all or nothing, black or white, up or down, one or zero. Instead, it's a matter of degree.

Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser do act like murderhobos on occasion, but no where near all the time nor is it their only "solution" to every problem.

because they don't want to play games patterned after Fafhrd & the Gray Mouser and similar stores

the bigger problem is that people still get trapped into a D&D centric frame of mind because this hobby is dumb

>>52148440
Well not literall kicking down the door but you get what that anon meant. Characters didn't have developed personalities and what they did outside the dungeon wasn't relevant. The playstyle was that a group of randoms brought their own character to solve challenge the dungeon posed, which meant the characters didn't have social links to each other beyond working together to complete the task. Death wasn't uncommon upon which you just picked a faceless hireling #3 to use as your character and carry on spelunking. It really was a different time back then.

>>52149132
That's fair, but pretty early it became the kind of thing where a story could EMERGE from player actions. And those are some of the best stories.

>>52148232
Fafhard and the Grey Mouser are still moral men, after a fashion (for their city they're saints)

Murder hobos are devoid of any character, or motivation. They are simply profit seeking machines

>>52149132
>It really was a different time back then.

It was more of an impersonal wargame than a "This PC Is Me" type thing. Something which shouldn't be surprising seeing how the genre was developed.

I remember playing the first Giants module back in the late 70s and our group experiencing a TPK within 30 minutes. We laughed, rolled up slightly tougher PCs, and started over again.

I can't even imagine the players I deal with now acting like that.

>>52148232

They're characters though. Murderhobos are stat blocks.

It's okay to be a stat block in the right game, but when you're trying to tell a story it's a problem.

I would be okay with a muderhobo in the right setting if he roleplayed it well. It makes sense in a gritty medieval setting that there's going to be people whose only skillset is killing people, but those people are going to show it very clearly in their non-combat behavior and interactions.

If you did that, I'd be interested.

>>52148397
>Old School dnd was a lot more kick down the door and kill shit before taking the treasure.
This is wrong and is hands down the best possible way to get yourself killed in old school. The bulk of XP came from treasure, whereas XP for for monsters was a pittance and not at all worth it. Smart play demanded that you avoid fighting as much as possible and sneak around to steal the treasure and then hauling it back to town so that you could level up. Kicking the door down and engaging in fights earns you nothing and gets you killed.

>>52149909
>They're characters though. Murderhobos are stat blocks.

THIS. That's quite possibly the best explanation I've yet read of the difference between murderhobos and PCs.

>>52150051
ech, thats a good description. I had one guy I'd play with who was adamant, he didnt give a SHIT about what happened to his characters. He made the dumbest fucking choices that all had obvious detrimental results to the whole party and he'd just laugh about it.

We asked him to leave shortly after a polite discussion involving our expectations for game and he was fine with that, but thats just how he is. Great for a dungeon crawl, not so much for an involved character you can raise a mug of beer to for how they ended their adventures.

>>52148578
I will point out that there's a story in which an angry woman wearing nothing but a brassiere and some bits of jewelry around her knees and elbows randomly teleports into the Gray Mouser's room as he's waking up, and his first impulse is to rape her.

>>52150210
Gotta do something with that morning wood.

That said, I dunno. Its definitely that guy but I dont feel like its murderhobo. Its an individual who makes bad choices.

I haven't touched on the series myself, apologies there, but according to wikipedia the grey mouser and Fafhrd are both complicated characters who put up masks and are different when they drop that mask.

That is to say, more to them than any one display of gross lechery could tell.

File: itsgonnablow.jpg (24KB, 576x786px) Image search: [Google]

24KB, 576x786px

>>52150210
>and some bits of jewelry around her knees

How does one wear jewelry around one's knees? And for what purpose?

I've heard of rings, necklaces, tiaras, earrings, noserings, toerings, bracelets, armlets, anklets, brooches, hairpins, bellychains, and other piercings, but the idea of knee jewelry escapes me.

>>52150210
>his first impulse is to rape her.

And I'll point out AGAIN that only binary thinking sperglords will expand a low percentage impulse into a 100% constant behavior. The Grey Mouser isn't a saint, nor is he a serial rapist. He's somewhere in between, which is something binary thinking sperglords have trouble comprehending.

A murderhobo, on the other hand, is a robot. A murderhobo is nothing more than a nihilistic stat block which does the same thing all the time.

Because this hobby attracts way too many frustrated amateur thespians

>>52150327

LOL I saw that pic on Fat People Hate!

>>52148232
Bad GMs will blame anything other than themselves. The players they call murderhobos are just honest about not caring about their shit characters and story, because it just isn't impressive in any capacity. Instead of trying to play along, those GMs try to use the world and story to browbeat the players into submission and make them change their ways.

It doesn't work.

>>52150327
Ah, pardon me. Had to re-check the text.
Specifically, she's wearing breast-cups (the nipples have poison-tipped spikes that can be fired) and shin-greaves (which have knives hidden in them).

>>52150714
Well, that clears that up, thanks for doublechecking.

But it also raises other questions, why is a woman wearing poison dart throwing brassier and why is she teleporting around. This is so bizarre, I think I may just have to read these stories.

>>52150648
And judgemental assholes who use the fact that games need players to inflict their shit on others, ANDY!!!!

>>52150788
Baen's got the story up for free, anon!
Long story short - as it turns out, some people won't get in the fucking bag, so you gotta get creative.
http://www.baen.com/Chapters/ERBAEN0092/ERBAEN0092___1.htm

>>52150809
Cool, thanks. I suppose I'll start with book 1 though and eventually get there.

>>52149823
>playing back in the late 70s

Anon how fucking old are you

>>52150979
>Anon how fucking old are you

Mid-50s. You?

>>52150593
it sounds like he really is a serial rapist though

>>52150210
But he didnt think to kill her first to prevent noise and struggle. Hes still got a ways to go before hes murder hobo level.

>>52149823
Part of that is that it's WAY easier to roll up new whitebox D&D characters than it is to roll up a new 3.PF or even 5e character.

>>52150015
this developed because of the older dnd rule in which players were no tougher than the monsters they were fighting and they both operated by the same rules. the only advantage the player had were their meta knowledge. even that is negated by any competent gm.

these days, game rules are all about making the player be able to become as op as possible which fosters a different mentality from the player which could not survive playing the older games.

Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser are chaotic neutral adventurers who have an strong reasoning for being such

Both lost their childhood due to factors fucking up their childhood love and forcing them to lose their 'home' and become 'adventurers'

They meet up in Lankhmar and, due to their similarish mindsets, form attachments to two women and go on double dates and become roomates, and then their girlfriends are then brutally murdered, both due to bad luck and our protagonists failures as newbie adventurers

In a fairly gritty world, the only people who give a damn about this are themselves. Their shared pain and vengeance leads them to be wary of serious relationships, yet since they're both hopeless romantics they can't help but date every princess, slavegirl, ghoul, wererat, and so on, they meet because they're still looking for what they lost all those years ago. These relationships never work out because either they clash with adventuring or they're broken off for other reasons, but some(notably the wererat) last multiple books.

The gray mouser tends to get fat and out of shape in-between adventures.
Fafhrd has a high tenor singing voice that he isn't at all embarrassed of, but the mouser is (at first).
Despite being adventuring buddies for life, they often butt heads over money or women or whatever nonsense they're up to this week, but they're each other's only anchor in this world, even if they forget that sometimes.


Chaotic neutral adventurer =/= murderhobo

If you ever wanted an example of how to do grey-morality Adventurers as opposed to Heroes&Villains with more depth than a 'nuffin personnel, kidd' mercenary or 'lolrandom murderhobo' this series is for you

If you want weird monsters and dungeons that inspired a lot of D&D, this series is for you

If you want bizarre monstergirl romance that isn't PG Piers Anthony ecchi, this series is for you

(Book 4 is best)

>>52153484
OP here. That does make sense. I guess I've just seen murderhobo used in cases where it doesn't actually apply, then.

>>52153484
Well put.

>>52148232
>>52153484
This looks like an interessting book series. Is it good and if so, where do I start?

>>52153990
It's great. I would read in chronological order (starting with Swords and Deviltry) but brace yourself for the first two stories (Fafhrd's and the Mouser's backstories, basically). Fafhrd's is largely mediocre with a few really good moments, and Mouser's is a slow boil up to a hype as fuck ending. But that should make it all the sweeter in Ill Met in Lankhmar, when the two finally meet when they bump into each other while trying to steal the same thing.

Just as a forewarning, it's a collection of short stories and novellas, with a single full-length novel somewhere in the middle. But it works well and there's character development nonetheless.