/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

First for deleting Entropy mages

Second for deleting Life mages

Third for deleting Matter mages

>>52027158
Obtenebration, the shadow manipulation is so good and thematic for the Lasombra. I've had a few good creative uses for it, like disarming and pick pocketing, or using it to make someone think they're being attacked from the rear, then attacking them from the front. Though I know there's a lot more creative uses of disciplines out there.

File: 58799374_p0.jpg (386KB, 700x994px) Image search: [Google]

386KB, 700x994px

Slice of Life/Adventure Chronicle about a sweet Thyrsus girl in her rural home town near the sea. She lives with her folks and she is the eldest of 5 siblings. What can the story be about?

>>52027290
She, her mother and her sisters gets raped and dies.

>>52027158
I've not played, but I'm very fond of Domination. I had a neat Lancea Sanctum priest, who pretended to be a good old man via serious domination abuse.

>>52025832
More than that, in Imperial Mysteries there is actual example of Tetrarch being tasked with binding Idigam.

Just played out Awakening in custom Realm of Life/Death. Player had to restore normal circle of life and death by killing hideous not-zombies, blob monsters and in the end taking Watchtower from evil dragon on the top. Shit was neat.

File: kiki.gif (1001KB, 500x500px) Image search: [Google]

1001KB, 500x500px

>>52027290
Her only trained skill is potion making, and she genuinely is nice and tries to help the normal people in her town.

>Pic related

If you really want to have your vampires\werewolves in Mage chronicle, just give them automatic Magic resistance and allow them to boost it with their mana analogue. That'll force players to use more elaborate tactics, which is Mage all about.

People who read We Eat Blood say that most Camarilla elders are going to some sort of conference on the East Coast. Do you guys think it'll be some sort of Feast of Folly v.2? What does it mean for the new metaplot?

>>52027749

We won't know until whatever form 5e actually takes appears, if then. Despite the hints and the prelude teaser, we know about as much as did before: very little.

>>52027158
>What's your favorite Discipline and what's the most creative way you used it?

Faux path & temporis 2(internal recursion)

Was playing a masquerade game, my character went away because i had to leave the game for a while. The dm and me wanted the character to return by pretending to be tzimice (the only normal looking one from the clanbook) who then pretended to be a gangrel. Because the city was officially a camarilla city

Problem one of the players is a serial metaplayer, to the point that the player saw a fake pc sheet i had that said "tzimice" and the first time the pc interacted and my pc introduce himself as gangrel his pc flipped the coffee table and said "I KNOW YOU ARE A DIRTY TZIMICE, ADMIT IT!!!"

Then my pc used (without the player knowing via code with the dm) temporis 2 (internal recursion) to paralyzed the other pc and faux path to make it seem like i paralyzed and altered his memory and the faux path again to make him feel someone was using auspex to read his mind.

Result: metagaming player was scared shitless that my tzimice had domination, auspex very high and i could justify my "new character" knowing all the meta knowledge of what was the party doing so far.

>>52027749
There's rumours that they'll all get killed, allowing more freedom to younger vampires.

Very stupid if you ask me but whatever

File: $yndicate on Hollow Ones.png (83KB, 500x481px) Image search: [Google]

83KB, 500x481px

So does anyone take the Hollow Ones seriously? I legitimately thought they were a joke-faction when I first read M:tAs, like the "Players" covenant. Then I read more and some of the writers seemed to genuinely think that post-modern goth-emo-punk pseudo-mystics would unlock the Tenth Sphere and lead us all into a new age of magic.

Pic very related, its how the Technocracy $yndicate views the Hollow Ones. I don't think I'd ever use the HOs in my games, except maybe as a joke.

>>52028497
>Hollow Ones are slacktivists of the Traditions.
>They're more concerned about easy shit like bitching about gender word choice
Dear god they're millennials

>>52028497
>reading m20

File: 1485808346833.jpg (48KB, 960x460px) Image search: [Google]

48KB, 960x460px

>>52028542
Yeah, the Hollow Ones really are the worst of the 90's-00's punk-goth-emo bullshit. As SJW as the writers can be, I'm glad at least some of them are self-aware enough to acknowledge it.

>>52028497

The metaphot takes them very seriously, and they, along with some of the Crafts if I remember right, are one of the major factors in the Traditions victory scenario.

No one else takes them seriously. They're just an attempt to be a sop to Masquerade players, but bad.

How would you stat Harry Dresden for Mage 2e, including Arcana spread and supernatural or mage-only merits, but not referencing any abilities from being Winter Knight.

>>52028730
Yeah, the Disparate Alliance. I kinda like the DA, but the Hollows need to disappear.

>>52028742
You know there is a Dresden tabletop rpg?

>>52028551
that's not M20, though

>>52028730

I'm trying to envision the Hollow Ones as a clique or legacy in Mage 2e, but would imagine even Libertines would roll their eyes or outright laugh. Most of the other Ascension Tradition could port over, despite the racism and stereotypes.

>>52027290

ridiculous amount of nephandi tentacle rape.

>>52028776
jeez it reads like it.

So magefap question (awakening edition)

Since when you cast magic in the Fallen World you're calling down platonic forms and imposing them on the world, surely lawnchairing is impossible?

You're going up against a dude. You go for the lawnchair. You decide to fuck with his pattern. Except what you're actually doing is attacking his pattern using Life and Matter. Would it be justified to treat this as any other damage spell with the bonus effect on resolution?

Like, his body doesn't really exist. Your body doesn't really exist. Not as far as magic is concerned. So for all magical shit that will kill a dude (an example last thread was using Matter to turn their sweat into reactive chemicals) surely that should be crunched as Matter 3 for bashing, Matter 4 for lethal etc as per usual?

Would at least cut down on some of the inherent autism/white room/analysis paralysis I've seen in past MtAw games

>>52028762
>You know there is a Dresden tabletop rpg?

Yes, so? I'm not interested in the Dresden rpg as I hate the FATE system.

>>52028794

A spell need not cause direct damage, and the Creative Thaumaturgy rules do not presume every spell is a direct attack.

A mage can turn someone into a lawchair (or most anything else) with the right Arcana. For a regular human, it would require Life 4 and Matter 4.

You also don't really seem to understand the nature of supernal in the setting or magic system. I suggest you reread Creative Thaumaturgy.

>>52028178
>Allowing Temporis
>Accomodating a meta gamer to this extent

Anon, your game is shit.

>>52028892
>>Accomodating a meta gamer to this extent
>Anon, your game is shit.

Man, messing with the metagamer´s head that way for six month was awesome and revealing we manipulate him for that long was one of the best vamp game we ever had.

>>52028742
>Harry Dresden

Harry's definitely an Obrimos of the Adamantine Arrow. I would give him Forces 4, with some Prime, Spirit, Space and Matter.

>>52028788

Hollow Ones, when executed correctly, are irony poisoned assholes who know that it's all bullshit, but take that they know that very, very seriously.

In theory, they should be the Tradition that's the master of the Purple Paradigm, hyper aware Grant Morrisons who end their spells by laughing at what a stupid concept casting spells are, and then go to a rave and get wasted to celebrate a successful spell.

What I'm saying is that an Awakening 2e conversion of the Hollow Ones are basically meme magicians that dress as goths.

>>52028788
>I'm trying to envision the Hollow Ones as a clique or legacy in Mage 2e, but would imagine even Libertines would roll their eyes or outright laugh.

Seriously? Have you seen the 1st write up for the Free council? Just replace "muh democracy" with "muh mascara" and both are the trash can of the other faction that nobody takes seriously because they themselves arent serious.

>>52028970
>Have you seen the 1st write up for the Free council?
You meant FC in 1st edition, or in the 2nd one? Actually, it doesn't mean - they are shit in both of them.

>>52029061

The 1st edition order book was the Children of gaia revised book of NWoD.

>>52028871

Kind of the opposite - I know it has the little sidebar about how much easier it is to fuck with someone than do damage.

The thing is that feels more like how ascension's fluff worked and not Awakening's. Why should fallen world science be so applicable to the supernal, especially when supernal magic makes no sense using science (like why is Life a type of magic, or Death etc)

>>52028970
>>52029061

The Free Council are a lot more interesting and relatable in light of their 2e changes. You should also read their history from Mage Noir (where DaveB was a contributor).

It's best for everyone if we pretend the Free Council sourcebook never existed. It's a real shame considering the greatness of all the other Order and related books.

>>52029133
>supernal magic makes no sense using science

That's not a helpful way of looking at magic.

Supernal magic operates on its own and is not constrained by Fallen science. However, such magic is fully capable of usurping scientific rules or using them to the advantage of the mage.

>>52029146

Did DaveB write the Free Council section of Mage Noir?

>>52029405

I'm not sure Mage Noir, but I believe we've begun to assume that Dave's written nearly everything for Mage.

It's really unfair to other great Mage authors.

>>52029146
What's the cliff-notes version?

I know the Free-Council most frequently butts heads with the Silver Ladder and the Ladder's shtick is to manipulate, alter, and lead sleeper society towards awakening.

I believe the Free Council shtick is humanity is inherently magical and something like interpretive dance is just as valid of a magical tradition as say voodoo or hermetic sorcery.

>>52029807
>I believe the Free Council shtick is humanity is inherently magical and something like interpretive dance is just as valid of a magical tradition as say voodoo or hermetic sorcery.

Its more that voodoo or hermetic sorcery is just as valid as atlantean wankery

>>52029807

http://theonyxpath.com/new-order/

If I just want to read up the fluff for the Technocracy, and not bother with the rest of Mage stuff, which books should I read?

You noticed that MtAw 2e become a lot, lot more less powerful, if you just forbid ignoring Withstand by Exceptional Success?

>>52029979

Guide to the technocracy and the convention books

>>52030282

And the Technocracy Assembled Volume 1&2?

>>52030262
>You noticed that MtAw 2e become a lot, lot more less powerful, if you just forbid ignoring Withstand by Exceptional Success?

No, not really.

A mage really doesn't begin to reliably obtain exceptional successes until he has high Gnosis and Arcana, and at that point, he's already terrifying.

>>52030362
Not that terrifying, because you then HAVE to spend some dice to chew through enemy Withstand. Indirect spells remain the main force, but you still have to cleverly and creatively use them, not just bash everything with Unmaking Praxis insta-kills with no protection.

>>52030361

Those are the compiled convention books from 1st if memory serves me right

Has anyone played a Lhiannan in a chronicle before? They're my favourite bloodline but never got the chance to play one. If you did, how did it go? What is everyone's general opinion on the bloodline anyway?

>>52030503

A master can easily instantly cast a 4 dot direct unravelling spell with a *minimum* of 5 levels of aggravated damage at sensory range with no applied Defense, all without use of a rote or praxis, and with more than an ample dice pool to liberally add Spell Factors even without use of Yantras.

Also, don't forget that with an Arcanum at 5, Mage Armor provided Masters with a very substantial Defense/Armor without casting a single spell.

Masters mages are more than capable of obliterating even powerful supernatural foes they way we swat away insects.

The ES rule sometimes feels like it exists only as a stark overkill reminder that one does not fuck with masters.

>>52029133
If you apply the scientific method to the world you get "Science".
If you apply the scientific method to the Supernal you get Arcane Beats.

>>52028929
I envy you. Was the final reveal a bang or a whimper?

Am I just not seeing it in the mega archive of WoD stuff or is the Vampire: The Dark Ages Rulebook from 1996 simply not there? I found the revised, 2nd edition and the 20th anniversary, but not the original.

>>52030985
Yeah, but that's still deal and receive damage, not "sorry, you are dead".

>Masters mages are more than capable of obliterating even powerful supernatural foes they way we swat away insects.
Not really. Rank 4+ spirits (all kinds of them) have really nasty stats, and powerful Numina to top it off.

>>52030985

How large is an average Consilium/Assembly or Order Caucus, and what percentage of those mages are masters.

It would seem that most Consilia or Caucuses can easily deal any supernatural (or mundane) threat short of other significant mage groups like Seers or WMD-level Abyssal or similar horrors.

A hungry methuselah, rampant idigam, mad spirit god or even a major military operation would appear to elicit little more than a collective mage yawm.

>>52031107

The potency of an Unmaking effect normally *starts* at 5, and the mage has a *minimum* of 10 dice pool before Yantras, such as rotes he created, to raise it even more.

Even without the ES rule, master-level spells almost certainly mean instant death.

When fighting a master, the only consideration is usually will the adversary's death be quick or slow and painful.

>>52031137
>How large is an average Consilium/Assembly or Order Caucus

I think it's a WW rule to never provide supernatural demographics.

However, pre-2e, Dave did once give his own Gnosis / Arcana breakdown for a "typical' Consilium. Unfortunately, I cannot find the post.

Sometimes it feels like a person couldn't go to the supermarket or ride the bus in the CofD without bumping into a number of veritable gods.

>>52031137
>rampant idigam, mad spirit god
I'll repeat: spirits have nasty dicepools, 20+ is easy, and they'll have Numina to shield themselves with. And that's only talking about Rank 4-5 spirits. You just can't affect Rank 6+ with normal spells (not Imperial ones), in any Arcanum which deals with spirits.

>>52031197
First of all, it starts at 4, not 5 (number of steps equal to the character’s rating in the spell’s highest Arcanum minus one). You will want to spend some Reach points on top, to avoid ritual casting times and need to touch your target.
Yes, you still have 10+ dice to spend in Potency, but there is the catch: so is your enemy. So while you get to boost your Potency, he gets to boost his Withstand (with Prime Wards and Sign, for example). There is sword and shield, and there is a chance of your enemy Master to have a stronger shield. Ignoring Withstand with Exceptional Success just says "Fuck you, I won", regardless of mastery.

>>52031258
>supernatural demographics.

If DaveB or anyone else has those posts, it would be greatly appreciated.

>>52031322
>First of all, it starts at 4, not 5 (number of steps equal to the character’s rating in the spell’s highest Arcanum minus one).
Kind of. All factors start with the value of 1. When you make 4 steps for the Primary factor you end up with 5.

>>52031329
https://warosu.org/tg/thread/43435680#p43463949

>>52031322

Your primary spell factor starts are your Arcanum level. An unmaking attack spell begins at a potency of 5.

The discussion was also about mages versus non-mages. Mages do have some general limited means of boosting Withstand or possibly forcing a Clash of Wills. Most other supernatural don't have such defenses against supernal magic, and even those who do can't use such defenses because they'll only realize their being targeting after the fact.

As for spirits, the Shielding Practice of the Spirit Arcanum can virtually immunize a mage from spirit numina and influences, and low levels of Arcana like Spirit and Prime can offer mages the ability to use or mimic a spirit's bane, no matter the spirit's rank.

Simply, is fighting a Rank 6 spirit god easy? Hell no. Are mages the only splat capable of not embarrassing themselves in such an encounter at a typical PC level? Yes.

>>52031414

Excellent. Thank you.

Hopefully, Dave will publicly update his charts for 2e.

Can a Forces 2 Shielding spell actually make a mage immune to any physical damage?

>>52031450
>Most other supernatural don't have such defenses against supernal magic
Maybe, but vampires, for example, may add up their Blood Potency to Withstand other supernatual effects (which would include Supernal magic IMO). So Vampire with BP 5 would require -10 to the roll to affect him with direct spell.

>As for spirits, the Shielding Practice of the Spirit Arcanum can virtually immunize a mage from spirit numina and influences
It really wouldn't. You still have to roll Clash of Wills, and spirits still have godhuge attributes with Rank on top.

>and low levels of Arcana like Spirit and Prime can offer mages the ability to use or mimic a spirit's bane
Knowing the bane not equals to "can use the bane", and the higher the spirit rank, the harder it's bane to use.

>>52031502
In theory yes. Much harder in practice.

I model my "Force Field" spell after the "Alchemist's Touch" example spell.

Primary factor: Potency
Practice :Shielding
The spell protects the mage from all forms of bashing damage associated with that form of energy chosen at the time of casting (e.g. kinetic, electric, thermal, radiation, pressure)

+1 reach The mage may choose an additional school (This may be taken multiple times)
+1 reach The spell protects against lethal damage and reduces aggravated damage by Potency
+2 reach & 1 Mana The spell protects against aggravated damage.

You can jazz it up with conjunctional arcana if you feel like you'd need dots in death to protect you from an angry ghost trying to club your head in. Remember a shielding spell only lasts Potency # clash of wills against supernatural attacks.

>>52031601

Adding supernatural tolerance to Withstand is discouraged because it virtually renders supernatural immune to magic. It's going the completely opposite direction.


Ephemeral Enchantment (Prime•••)
Practice: Weaving
Primary Factor: Duration
Suggested Rote Skills: Crafts, Occult, Weaponry
The symbol-forms of the Aether are real enough to cut
through all layers of reality. This spell enchants the subject to
be as solid to Twilight entities as to physical matter. This spell
is equally effective against all forms of Twilight; the subject
may interact with ghosts, spirits, angels, and stranger things
with equal facility.
+2 Reach: If the enchanted object is a weapon, it may be
enchanted to act as the bane of a specified being in Twilight
for one Mana. Extra subjects may be added with the Scale spell
factor, but each costs one extra point of Mana

>>52031064
Try this m8.
https://www.scribd.com/doc/239335165/Dark-Ages-Vampire-Core-Rulebook

>>52031711

A Forces 2 "Force Shield" Rote would be very effective.

Four free Reach and Yantra Mundra bonus.

Reach:
+1 instant casting
+1 Advanced Duration (scene)
+1 Lethal protection
+1 Any extra type of energy.

Such a spell could render its user effectively immune to kinetic and heat damage. Even an Uratha in Garau will be little more than a nuisance.

Would such protection stack or replace armor provided by Forces and Matter Mage Armor?

>>52031502
>>52031711
>>52031827

Next combat, I'll be standing *behind* the Obrimos in my cabal.

>>52031725
>Adding supernatural tolerance to Withstand is discouraged because it virtually renders supernatural immune to magic. It's going the completely opposite direction.
So, options that make mages actually put some effort into spells are "discouraged"? Aren't that convenient?

>it may be enchanted to act as the bane of a specified being in Twilight for one Mana
Wait, and that if spirit don't have material bane, as in this example:
> The teenage rebel cannot ever willingly submit or surrender to authority.
?

>>52031827
If you spend the reach to move it to advanced duration the spell would now have a duration of a year due to primary factor.

However it would have a default potency of 1 so any supernatural attack like an Uratha's claws would pop the shield after the Clash of Wills win or fail. However you could walk through machine gun fire no problem.

The way I understand the rules is the highest effect takes precedence (so you can't use both time magic and forces to run at super sonic speed) but different things can stack (So you can enhance your physical attributes with life and a forces speed spell) .

So if you're shot with a magic sniper rifle. You'd first roll a clash of wills to see if it pierces your shielding spell. If it goes through then you'd have to figure out how much Mage armor reduces the damage. The you have to see how much your mundane armor reduces it if at all. Then if you have an attainment like 'Inviolate Form' you can roll to see if the damage goes through.

>>52028958
For 2e I think he would be:
>Forces 4 (going on 5)
>Prime 4
>Spirit 3
>Death 3
>Matter 3
>Space 2
>Mind 2

Maybe with Winter Knight as a Legacy.

File: 03002.jpg (8KB, 150x194px) Image search: [Google]

8KB, 150x194px

>>52027158
I have a question and it's kinda hard to find it in the archive, but why does everyone hate the module Rite of Passage from Werewolf?

>>52031975
>So, options that make mages actually put some effort into spells are "discouraged"? Aren't that convenient?

Thats DaveB whole design approach, "if it sound OP then enforce it"

>>52032111
I think it was more "I don't give a fuck about crossovers" or "If you're dumb enough to run a Mage in a crossover game you fucking deal with it."

>>52032102
I could of sworn he's done some minor time magic in at least one of the novels.

>>52032162
He could have, but I don't think so. I mean there are a lot of them and it's been a while since I read them, but I'm pretty sure Time magic in the Dresden Files is iffy as fuck and largely illegal.

>>52032008
>Force Shield

The Forces spell is patterned on Matter 2's Alchemist's Touch (p.155), which unlike more esoteric Shielding spells such as Mental Shield, Ghost Shield and Ephemeral Shield, has a Primary Factor of Potency and does not provide a Clash of Wills.

>>52031502
With enough potency? Yes.
I believe the popular consensus is that Forces shielding makes you immune to Bashing from a specified energy source and decreases Lethal damage by Potency.

>>52032102

How do you get Death 3 and Mind 2, particularly since most mental and necromantic magic is punishable by death in the DF setting.

>>52031975
>So, options that make mages actually put some effort into spells are "discouraged"?

It's not "some effort," it results in virtual immunity to supernal magic.

The new magic system with Withstand, only requiring one success for effect, etc., is intentionally modeled without consideration for using Supernatural Tolerance as an additive defense. Just tacking it on because you don't like powerful mages upends the system.

At best, for a houserule, it may be reasonable to allow pc's to use the higher of the relevant trait or supernatural tolerance, whichever is higher, or at the extreme, allow +1 Withstand for every 2 levels of supernatural tolerance, rounded down.

>>52032262
Not him, but Harry has displayed the ability to use mental shielding effects (2 dots), and raise a dinosaur zombie (3 dots).

Neither of which break their laws of Magic.

>>52032262
I got Death 3 because he has done Death magic, like with the ghosts at Bianca's mansion, cold magic (helped by being the Winter Knight), and the bit of actual necromancy he did on a giant T-Rex fossil.

As for Mind 2, I imagine that would actually be provided by the Council now, since it's the minimum requirement for a Mental Shield, which he used against the Corspetaker. There was also that time he did a little ritual casting to put Murphy in a deep sleep, which I believe is a Disciple level spell in 2e.

>>52032238
>>52032242

Would an Obrimos be able to simultaneously use his Forces Mage Armor and a Forces Shielding spell?

Also, >#ObrimosSupremacy

>>52032341
>>52032351

Yes, I forgot about the T-Rex and I accept Mind 2 for shielding and defense.

Do you think Harry needs a dot or two in Life. He gets banged up pretty bad, but rarely suffers the effects.

His (pre-Winter Knight) dealings with the Fae might also justify a dot or two of Fate.

>>52032356
Sure, those do different things.

>>52032356
Mages don't really need help fucking over sleepers. A force field doesn't protect you from being teleported to Siberia, having your heart stopped, or somebody turning your clothes into Hydrazine.

>>52031852
>I'll be standing *behind* the Obrimos in my cabal.

That's alright, Obrimos don't lead from behind.

>>52032399
One of the quirks of the Dresden-verse is that Magic doesn't work that well with living beings. A big thing from what I remember was that wizards couldn't just use magic to heal themselves.

>>52032410
>A force field doesn't protect you from being teleported to Siberia, having your heart stopped, or somebody turning your clothes into Hydrazine

No, it doesn't, but that's not who such a spell is designed to defend against. Such a mage, usually an Obrimos, would use Prime is used counter such effects when dealing with other mages.

You are correct, defending against sleepers is usually trivial. However, most other major supernaturals and other horrors also still resort physical violence such as tooth and claw against their enemies, and the spell renders such attacks meaningless.

>>52032440
>big thing from what I remember was that wizards couldn't just use magic to heal themselves.

I believe healing magic is minor and rare in DF.

However, Wizards have very hardy constitutions, heal quickly, including slow regeneration, etc. This could be emulated with a dot or two in Life.

>>52032410
>Mages don't really need help fucking over sleepers

Large numbers of trained and armed humans can often present a threat, particularly to less experienced mages. A simple Forces 2 Shielding effect could allow a mage to casually deal with everything from a whole gang to a special forces battalion with no risk to himself.

>>52032509
Man prime should practically be free because it's the most necessary arcana in the game.

>>52032638
>prime should practically be free because it's the most necessary arcana in the game.

Prime..., and Space, Life, Fate, Time...

All the Arcana are so very useful. In fact, unless you're always fighting other mages, Prime is arguably less necessary than other Arcana.

>>52032693
but mana.

>>52032716
>but mana.

Meh, except for creating a Halllow with Prime 5(!), there are few, if any, Prime spells that actually generate or convert things to mana. Even Channel Mana just moves it around.

Joining a Legacy for Hallow free oblations is usually more than sufficient to obtain your mana fix.

I'm hopeful Signs of Sorcery will provide more mana-acquiring spells for Prime.

>>52032693
But anti-magic.

>>52032755
>Joining a Legacy
This is supposed to be magical maturity, not just "need Legacy for Mana".

>>52032781
>But anti-magic.

Yes, anti-magic is indeed nice, particularly if you're battling other mages.

However, is it more important than Sympathetic Range, healing, reversing time or altering fate, etc.?

>>52032807
It counters all those things (okay, most of them, when they are directed at you). So... yes? Prime + something is always better than something + something. Also, it can boost your magic at the same time, and the only other Arcana which do it is Fate.

>>52032142
>I think it was more "I don't give a fuck about crossovers" or "If you're dumb enough to run a Mage in a crossover game you fucking deal with it."

That would be true if not for how fate magic i so overpowered and can be used by to cast even better magic.

>>52032922

Magic is more than countering things, it's about doing and controlling things. The other Arcana are generally far better at that than Prime.

>>52032142
And that would normally be fine by me. Until OPP announced the Crossover Chronicles book...

>>52027290
mystery and wonder, obviously

>>52031054
>I envy you. Was the final reveal a bang or a whimper?

Both, the sabbat came and another PC took everyone important out (the tremeres) of the city. So my character had to race there before they leave and the prove that he was who he said he was by revealing something only another PC knew.

Then we took off and left the metagaming pc as the primogen of a city fragmented, without the tremere and about to be attacked by all the sabbat in new england. It was awesome.

I loved that game, and the fact is probably the only time a DM will let me play a caitiff with spiritus, temporis, ogham, mytheresa, thaumaturgy and kuldonic so i made the most of that game.

>>52033021
>Crossover Chronicles book...

I predict a Beast-level clusterfuck.

What current developer would ever want to touch such a no-win project?

>>52033009
Yeah, and Prime is about controlling magic and better than anything about it (except Fate. Seriously, Fate is a f--cking cheat mode).

>>52033101
>Crossover Chronicles book

I thought DaveB was the developer?

>>52032399
That would be a Mind effect, which would probably boost him up to Mind 3. He doesn't heal himself so much as make himself not feel it.

>>52033159
>He doesn't heal himself so much as make himself not feel it.

Life 1 Ruling?

>>52033148

There is no developer. The book doesn't even exist aside from an announcement yet.

>>52033103
>Prime is about controlling magic and better than anything about it (except Fate. Seriously, Fate is a f--cking cheat mode).

>Obrimos With Fate Legacy Supremacy?

>>52033189
No, every time he does it he does it through pure mental focus. Remember that Lasciel taught it to him, and the only power she had over Harry was mental shit.

>>52033198

When is the Crossover book supposed to be released?

Is it scheduled after Changeling 2e, Geist 2e, Hunter 2e and Dark Eras 2?

If so, third editions will be in the works before first draft of Crossover Chronicles are in.

>>52033251

It's not even on the schedule, as far as I know.

Also,

>implying there will ever be a CofD 3e
>While Dracula runs White Wolf

We will be honestly lucky to even make it to the end of 2e at this point.

>>52033204
Either this, or Time/Mind Supremacy.

>>52031107

Masters of Spirit are going to curbstomp rank 5 Spirit and under. I thought you have would have read the core book.

I'm noticing that Moros don't get much love around here.

Neither Matter nor Death seem to be considered "essential" or "supremacy-related" Arcana.

>>52033297
>We will be honestly lucky to even make it to the end of 2e at this point.

kinda like saying a dying aids pacient "he is lucky to suffer more pain to the end of the year" sometimes you gotta euthanize.

>>52033359
>sometimes you gotta euthanize.

Are you suggesting that nuWW/Paradox cancel the CofD?!?!

>>52030503
Masters can eventually garner a good 90% chance of acquiring Exceptional Successes, meaning they don't need to chew through anything.

Stop acting like Masters are shit when the majority here knows otherwise. It's not like crossover is something that is easily dealt with.

>>52033377
Read the fucking beginning of the line of messages:
>You noticed that MtAw 2e become a lot, lot more less powerful, if you just forbid ignoring Withstand by Exceptional Success?
No autopass with Exceptional Success, no Master Supremacy.

>>52033348
>Moros don't get much love around here.

Of course not. What there to like about those necrophilic vampire-lovers?

>>52033374
>Are you suggesting that nuWW/Paradox cancel the CofD?!?!

Cancel, put out of its misery. At this point the line is thin.

Maybe just maybe, now that David Hill is gone to the land of the weaboos it might improve but if it remains as it is now putting out of its misery is the humane thing to do.

>>52033021
Hey, as long as the Mage crossover chapter is only one word long, with the word being "DON'T", it'll be fine.

>>52033374

Dracula had made it clear that that absolutely was on the table after the purchase, so it's not like he couldn't change his mind.

>>52031601
You're overestimating a good many things.

>>52033345
No, they aren't going to curbstomp them. Rank 5 Spirit got large dicepools and can protect themselves with Influences and Numina. They can win Clash of Wills. They have huge pools of Essences, and their abilites limited, but strong.

>>52033410

Without the exceptional success rule, masters would go from effortlessly winning every encounter to still always winning with a teeny, tiny bit of effort.

The myopic focus on the exceptional success bonus option ignores the already immensely formidable abilities of all master mages, and the discussion is entering the realm of near-autistic white room meanderings.

>>52033454

Sorry, Spirit can counter all of that. You must be a werefag.

I suggest you fucking pick up a book before you start spewing blatant dogshit.

>>52033431
>Hey, as long as the Mage crossover chapter is only one word long, with the word being "DON'T", it'll be fine.

BEWARE!

MAGE SUPREMACY AHEAD

>>52033423

If you don't like it anymore, why be here? No one has to be a sycophant, but if you're at the point where you're hoping for the line to die, maybe it's time to just move on to a new game.

>>52033496
Mages aren't the only splat that doesn't play well with others. Good luck doing a crossover with Demon and Vampire.

>Someone is arguing that Masters aren't at the top of the food chain.

Watch as a simple ignorant opinion downgrades this thread into more Mage wankery. Thanks for not keeping up with source material and ruining another board.

>>52033486
I've read it, and no, you can't counter all, except if Spirit just freely allows you to cast spells on it. And it won't.

>>52033501

That Anon's probably anxiously awaiting the new, "edgier" and more Sweden-centric One World of Darkness metaplot updates.

>>52033423
Uh, hasn't Hill been living in Japan for years now?

>>52033521
>Spirit 5 mages can earn a rank 5 status among spirits
lol

>>52033511
>ood luck doing a crossover with Demon and Vampire

According to Dave, demons and mummies are near the mage-class power level.

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/mage-the-awakening/1055378-mage-is-biting-us-in-the-ass-every-step-of-the-way

Also, vampire crossover is always difficult for no other reason thas vampires don't operate during the day.

>>52033514

You can blame the idiot arguing that a Master of Spirit is going to have difficulty interacting with rank 5 spirits.

>>52033410
You're trying really hard to force yourself to believe that Masters aren't the best.

Stop kidding yourself, kiddo.

>>52033521
>>52033561

Master Spirit mages don't have to "earn" rank 5 status among spirits. It's bestowed and recognized as the Spirit 4 Attainment - a Spirit Mage has Rank equal to Spirit Arcanum level.

>>52033511
Generally speaking, Descent and Awakening 2e are very thematically at odds with the rest of the CofD game lines.

>>52033610

>more mage supremacy

So mages can demand respect from Uratha. Nice. Though it's not like The Pack was wrong when it said that Spirit mages can outperform werewolf elders even as apprentices.

>>52033561
He sure as hell won't be able to just Unmake Rank 5 Spirit with 20+ dicepool in Clash of Wills, anon.

>>52033610
Yeah, you get Rank and they'll treat you as equal. Doesn't mean you just get to command them over, you know.

>>52033565
Mage, Mummy and Demon have always been the three most powerful game-lines.

Until you add in Imperial Mysteries, in which case Mage beats everything.

>>52033627
Rank isn't respect.

>>52033641
Yeah, and that's before boosting their attributes with Essence, which Rank 4-5 spirits have a lot of. Add a 10-12 dice to those pools in case, you know, of spirit wanting to actually survive.

>>52033652
>Until you add in Imperial Mysteries, in which case Mage beats everything.

The focus on Imperial Mysteries is unwarranted.

There are fewer than a few dozen active archmasters at any time, and they rarely directly interfere because of the Pax.

While Imperial Mysteries was certainly a well-written and fun book, and useful for a VERY limited type of chronicle, I imagine its publication is not without some regrets from the WW powers that be.

>>52033641
>>52033682

Why would a Spirit mage need to Clash a spirit to humiliate it? Mages can re-write bans on a whim.

>>52033627
>Though it's not like The Pack was wrong when it said that Spirit mages can outperform werewolf elders even as apprentices

I personally like the part in The Pack where it discusses how interfering with mages often results in a fate worse than death.

>WhosAGoodDoggy

>>52033708
>no more than a hundred at a time

Fixed that for you.

>>52033716

Man, than exceptional success bonus will definitely come in handy when Spirit masters deal with uppity, high-ranked spirits.

>>52033716
Because Spirit would use Strengthen, Manipulate or Control influence on itself to protect himself from rewriting. And after your initial attempt, smack you with 30+ dice Numina. Don't misunderstand me, Masters can and will lord around the spirits, and can bind even Royal Avatars. But that requires some thinking and preparation - the qualities rapid Magefags lack.

Are anons seriously arguing that Masters of Spirit can't take on rank 5 spirits and win?

lol

>>52033744
>no more than a hundred at a time

That doesn't really change my point at all.

The only time a pc will ever have to deal with an archmaster is if they're foolish enough to seek one out or they suffer from VERY bad luck.

>>52033673
Call it what you want, respect, deference, fear.
The practical upshot is that a Mage with Spirit 4-5 in practical effects counts as a Spirit of Rank 4-5, and is treated as such in the Shadow.

Meaning that Spirits don't automatically get fucking pissed and demand that the dirty filthy stink-monkey goes back where he came from.

>>52033814
>Meaning that Spirits don't automatically get fucking pissed and demand that the dirty filthy stink-monkey goes back where he came from.

Nope, they say it behind his back and pray they aren't overheard.

>>52033781

The specific purview of the Influence has to directly counter a spell to provide a Clash of Wills. It doesn't always provide a general defense, no matter the Rank of the spirit.

Against a Spirit Unmaking, I imagine there would be few Influences available to Rank 6 or below spirit that would provide a Clash of Wills. It's not like spirits have an Influence of Spirits.

>>52033781
Withstand is equal to Rank for things that use the Ephemeral Beings rules. And since the only time you Clash Supernal spells is when the target is protected by an appropriate Shielding Practice, anything that's not a mage is generally fucked since they ONLY get Withstand.

So. Say you're a vampire, maybe even an elder.

How do you kill off the local coven of mages? Assume they don't yet know of you.

>>52033895
Unmaking specifically doesn't work against Spirits of Rank 6+, and every other Spirit gets to use its influences to counter the attempt to unmaking it be reaffirming it's existence with regards to the elements that define it.

Read the darn spell.

>>52033925
>Assume they don't yet know of you.

Impossible. Not with Acanthus master race, or just a Time mage.

I don't even think a group of elders could attack a Sanctum without being obliterated.

>>52033925
In all honesty? You beg the Seers.
If they have even one moderately proficient Acanthus, your plan is doomed to failure as they'll either see it coming, or if they survive they'll just go back in time and warn them all of it.

>>52033930
So only rank 6+ spirits can reliably defend against a Master of Spirit.

Jeez, who know? Mind is blown. Thanks for the obvious.

>>52033930

Meh, it's probably easier and more efficient to use aggravated unraveling effects or resort to banes to deal with high-powered spirits than resort to Unmaking.

>>52033974
>only rank 6+ spirits can reliably defend against a Master of Spirit

Masters can cheese rank 5 spirits and under rather easily, leaving their defenses useless. Even their Clash of Wills is going to be moot against a Thyrsus.

>>52033974
Then next time don't fuck up and pretend that you can unmake Rank 6 Spirits, and that not all Spirits can even try and contest it.

>>52033925
You don't. Or you try, and then meet your Final Death in short order, because the Cabal has access to Time and you don't.

>>52033974
>So only rank 6+ spirits can reliably defend against a Master of Spirit.

And "reliably defend" does not always mean prevail against the master of Spirit.

>>52033919
>So only rank 6+ spirits can reliably defend against a Master of Spirit.
>The target spirit may spend an Essence to roll Power + Finesse in a Clash of Wills, a last-ditch attempt to reassert its existence through its Influences.
And Power + Finesse is easily 25+ on Rank 4-5 Spirits AND they can use the Essence to boost the traits. And if they can "reassert its existence through its Influences", who says they can't achieve Shielding-like effect on themselves by Influence?

>>52033996
>Aggravated Damage.
Spirits of Rank 4+ can have in excess of 20 boxes of Corpus, and even their Banes can merely drive them off.

Those avenues of attack have their benefits, but if you have the power and you need that Spirit of Annihilation dead right fucking now, Unmaking is pretty darn helpful.

>>52033423
Meh. There's a few good things, I can't say having it cancelled or going on will affect me much.
I'm eager to see what DaveB can do with MtAw 2e, but I despise Promethean 2e as much as I loved 1e.
And I still have all my books from oWoD, and nWoD 1e, without counting the 20th anniversary editions (yes, I have m20 and despite some shit Brucato put in, I still like it).

The master of Spirit can use the Arcanum to to temporarily reduce the spirit's rank, redistribute or reduce traits and nullify influences prior to resort to more permanent destructive spells.

When combatting a spirit above rank 5, a smart spirit mage first attacks the spirit's defenses, then goes for the kill.

>>52034078
Still sounds rather easy for a Master to kill a bunch of rank 5 spirits that way.

But whatever, Mage is Mage.

I find the discussion about the spirit master versus rank 6+ spirit most amusing.

Is there any other maxed-out pc splat, including werewolves, that would even have a chance in hell against such an opponent?

>>52034078
You're still playing the game of Potency Anon, even ignoring Withstand with an Exceptional success you can only decrease attributes by an amount equal to Potency.

And against a powerful Spirit, that might not be nearly enough.

Still easier than beating their Power + Finesse pool to resist Unmaking though.

Man, I really do not like MtA 2e. I was kinda indifferent to 1e, but so many things about 2e rub me the wrong way. And I suspect once Crossover Chronicles is released that dislike will deepen to actual loathing, if not outright hatred.

>>52034127

Spirit mages deal with spirits far better than werewolves.

>>52034102
>>52034130

A master of spirit will likely quickly decimate a Rank 5 spirit.

A battle with between such a mage and a Rank 6+ demi-god would be truly epic, with the outcome uncertain.

As the other Anon mentioned >>52034127 , this quite the endorsement of the mage supremacy position.

>>52031800

Can't download it, it's asking me to pay for it/enter my credit card information.

>>52034179
>Spirit mages deal with spirits far better than werewolves.

Werewolves are apex predators within the natural spirit ecosystem.

Mages are like human hunters in a forest with high-powered rifles and other fancy equipment who are outside of and easily upset the natural order.

>>52034179
>Spirit mages deal with spirits far better than werewolves.

Shhh... you might hurt the werewolves' feelings.

They might get angry...

>lol

File: Screenshot (34).png (656KB, 2720x734px) Image search: [Google]

656KB, 2720x734px

>>52034208
That's bizarre. You clicked this button right? And it brought you here right?

>>52034152
I seriously don't know how to run game, in which there is literally no way to challenge protagonists except "pit them against the other mage".

>>52034152
>Man, I really do not like MtA 2e

Why, because the mechanics of Mage actually support its themes of the corruption of reality-altering power, and mage's abilities necessary to deal with their own uber-powerful antagonists render them far more capable in crossover settings than your favorite splat?

>>52034280

Yes, and below the stuff you got on the right there's the "Download with Free Trial" except for the free trial you have to enter your credit card information.

In any case, I've got that one, that's not the original one from 1996 either.

Hmmmm, I thought rank 5 spirits would be strong enough to take on Spirit mages. After reading this thread I guess I was wrong. Is the Spirit Arcanum in-general one of the strongest?

Also surprised by how unlikely it is for anything to survive an Exceptional Success Unmaking doom spell, even with Clash of Wills, which is even unlikelier to trigger.

Keep educating me, Chronicles of Fagness. Even though I hate you.

>>52034304

Besides other mages, adversaries include Abyssal creatures, spirit gods, unnamed horrors, etc.

You need to think big. Mages are not "street level" pc's.

>>52034327
Oh, i just make a .txt file, and copy paste whatever's in the thread at the moment and give it a fancy sounding title and description, and upload it. But sorry it wasn't what you were looking for though senpai.

>>52034319
>>52034382
>mage's abilities necessary to deal with their own uber-powerful antagonists
Except they don't have those, they have other mages as antagonists, and they aren't that more powerful. Or you meant Abyss? Guess what: Abyssal creatures count as Spirits and Goetia, and so all the Mind and Spirit supremacy works on them just as well as on any other spirit.

>spirit gods
>literally ten posts above describe how mages fuck up all spirits of rank lesser than 6

>>52034377
This whole thread devolved once two (or perhaps the same) idiot(s) accused Unmaking as being "not so tough" and rank 5 spirits as being "hard to beat" even for a Master of Spirit.

The simple fact is that rank 5 spirits are fodder to Thyrsus Masters, and it's extraordinarily (night impossible) difficult to defend against being Unmade.

I'm reminded of that time when DaveB mentioned how easy it would be for a Gnosis 10 "white room combat king" to humiliate a BP 10 elder, and he despises white-room combat.

>>52034319
The fact that the only thing that poses any kind of threat to the PCs is other mages, kinda ruins it for me. If it ain't capable of countermagic, then it's a non-factor to the players.

>>52034409
>literally ten posts above describe how mages fuck up all spirits of rank lesser than 6

So, use rank 6+ spirits and other horrors of equivalent power.

Again, think big and get creative if you want to run mage. It's a high-power setting, although that certainly might not suit your tastes.

>>52034409
Not all Abyssal creatures are the same, some are literally impossible to face. Fallen Supernal gods are also impossible fight, as are the Exarchs which already "won"

>>52034428
>and it's extraordinarily (night impossible) difficult to defend against being Unmade
>The target spirit may spend an Essence to roll Power + Finesse in a Clash of Wills, a last-ditch attempt to reassert its existence through its Influences.

>>52034457
I'm referring to the various playable templates, Anon.

You also don't need to Unmake a spirit to beat it.

>>52034457
Why Finesse? WtF uses Influence for Clash of Wills.

Strange.

>>52034457

Even without resort to Unmaking, the vast defensive and offensive capabilities of a master of spirit will ensure he will easily prevail against anything less than a Rank 6+ spirit.

>>52034449
>So, use rank 6+ spirits and other horrors of equivalent power.
Fucking Death itself is Rank 7 spirit, anon. You know the game is fucking broken if you need to throw Death itself at PCs to provide some challenge.

>>52034494
>WtF uses Influence for Clash of Wills.

It would seem the traits listed in the Spirit Unmaking spell need an errata.

>>52034504
>6+ spirits
They're immune to a good few things under Imperial Factors.

An Archmaster would utterly decimate any Idigam. But is this even news? The Seekers can eventually claim equal status to Luna herself, or just enslave her.

>>52034180
An archmaster yeah a mage would be flatted in an instant.

>>52034504
I don't argue that. I just don't find anything interesting in the game where PCs have literally no challenge at all.

>>52034509

I would assume Death would be a Rank 8+ spirit (or really a Death Lord)

Note that the power differential between a rank 6 and 7 or 7 and 8 is quite vast.

>>52034533
>Enslaving Luna

I rather enjoy the idea of an Archmage building a harem out of gods.

>>52034454
Sooo, basically you're saying that the only non-mage threat to mage PCs is ST fiat. Good to know.

>>52034552
She is Rank 7 in Astral Realms. Anubis, minor god of death, is Rank 5 in it.

>>52034552
Deathlords would be rank 7 beings, similar to the Gentry. Both are one step above the Idigam.
Luna and Helios are rank 8, while Gaia (if she even exists) is a rank 9.

Archmages are a special case and have a spot in reach-and-every rank depending on how powerful they are.

>>52034538
>An archmaster yeah a mage would be flatted in an instant.

A master of Spirit would not be "flattened" by most Rank 6 spirits, although the battles would be epic, and leave both parties scarred.

In any event, it's very unlikely a Spirit Master and Rank 6 spirit would ever engage in one-on-one combat.

>>52034547
The only way for a mage to win against a spirit of rank five is to ritually cast a spell. If you throw a major spirit unprepared against it they are fucked.

>>52034596
>If you throw a major spirit unprepared against it they are fucked

Not really, the Mage is more than capable of fighting it to a standstill or outplaying it.

>>52034596

The necessity of ritual casting is a 1e thing.

>>52034596
Read the above posts, man. Spirits are like clay in hands of Spirit master. He can rewrite them on the run, and there is nothing they can do about it. Withstanding with Rank is a joke.

File: 1488714719710.gif (722KB, 500x281px) Image search: [Google]

722KB, 500x281px

>>52033925
How did your 50 shades of grey after party come to discover the existence of mages, let alone their concilium?

>>52034596
I think you mean rank six, not five.

File: that giving mages the knot look.jpg (12KB, 246x246px) Image search: [Google]

12KB, 246x246px

>>52033925
you ask the local werewolves to handle it
granted, they may not be dead after they've been handled, but they certainly won't be in any fit state to trouble you anymore

>>52034575
>you'll fuck the god of death
>and he'll like it like a little good doggie

For all this talk about mage making rank 5 spirits their bitches, isnt it weird that werewolves do the same by putting rank 5 spirits into fetishes and only getting the equivalent of a lunar gift of level one (8s again on combat) for their trouble?

File: virtual adept correspondence.jpg (54KB, 602x960px) Image search: [Google]

54KB, 602x960px

So I've been kicking around this idea for an Ascension game, do you think this would be feasible/not shit?

>Game starts in Boston, Order of Hermes mage calls the PC's to his ancestral home/chantry

>Hermetic has acquired a dragon egg, about the size/weight of a bowling ball. The Consensus has turned it to a fossilized dinosaur egg, but the Hermetic believes if it can be moved to a Horizon realm it can be hatched into a true dragon.

>Hermetic doesn't have Spirit magic, but knows a Dreamspeaker out west who could probably do it.

>Problem is the Technocracy know something is up with the Hermetic, so he can't get it out to the Dreamspeaker himself. He asks the PC's to deliver it and stop dragons from going extinct.

>None of the PC's have been to where the Dreamspeaker lives, plus its warded, so no Correspondence magic to teleport there

>Along the way they are helped/hindered by different Traditionalists and Technocrats. Not all Trads are helpful, not all Techs are hindrances.

>Pursuing them is a Technocrat Progenitor who is part of the Center for Disease Control. If the PC's get too rowdy the Prog will put out the word that they're transporting a biological weapon through the US.

>Dreamspeaker destination can be Arizona, Washington, California, or even just Colorado. Depends on how long the game goes.

Thoughts? Critiques? Suggestions?

>>52034701

There aren't too many fetishes with Rank 5 spirits.

So apparently there's a Vampire the Nasquerade tvshow called Kindred the Embraced.

Is it any good? Anybody seen it?

>>52034669
>pack of werewolves
>handling an entire cabal

>chihuahuas with delusions of grandeur

>>52034634
A mage fucked with the prince. He was young and dumb. Now he's a corpse after quite a bit of torture, and the prince wants the mages gone.

>>52034751

It's an Aaron Spelling show.

It's Vampire 90210.

>>52034778
>prince wants the mages gone
Well, there is a question: is your prince royally stupid or just plain insane? In both cases, it'd be much easier to deal with him, rather than with mages.

>>52034767
>entire cabal
>resisting all those knots

knot on your life buddy

>>52034809
Forced meme is so forced.

>>52034778
>prince wants the mages gone
>tries to eliminate Consilium

Prince has a death wish and is about to commit suicide by mage.

A couple of Moros and Obrimos adepts should be more than able to deal with some uppity vampires.

A Moros or Obrimos *master* will make the prince regret he was ever embraced.

>>52034746

My point was that isnt it weird that for all their rarity and dangerous crafting their effect are so underwhelming?

If i got to punch the equivalent of a city father and trap it in a sword making it my enemy or gaining a debt to it, i expect more than the equivalent of a rank 1 gift or something i can get with professional training which i think cost less (i think 8s again cost 4 merit points).

Are the rules for fetish on mage more powerful?

>>52034715
Oh, and flying out is too risky as the Technocracy control all major airports.

>>52034847

Hey, wait a minute...

Why should the Moros and Obrimos have all the vampire hunting fun? They need to share with their Mastigos, Thyrsus and Acanthus buddies.

Vampire hunting is fun for everyone. The undead are like Nazis or cockroaches, you can kill 'em, and nobody cares. Heck, it's a public service.

File: Craft Fetish.jpg (175KB, 717x555px) Image search: [Google]

175KB, 717x555px

>>52034864
>Are the rules for fetish on mage more powerful

Mage - Craft Fetish

>>52034945

Mage fetishes are more powerful and versatile than werewolf fetishes

>Fetish Supremacy

>>52034945

I know it's mean, but I really do find it hilarious how Spirit mages are just so much better than Uratha.

>>52034847

My dm ran a mage vs vamp plot line too. It was fun he rules that the lancea sanctum merits applies to mages so we had a few vamps completely inmune to magic. And we manage to interrupt casting with celerity and causing a dramatic failure to the mage casting it with the crusader fighting style. Lots of fun breaking the atlantean fags

>>52034819
the only thing forced is this knot into mage boipucci

>BLAH BLAH BLAH NYAAAAAAA~

>SPIRIT MASTERS FINGER RANK 5 SPIRITS UP THE BUTT NYAAAAAAA~

>YOU CAN'T RESIST THE KNOT OF UNMAKING NYAAAAAAA~

Yes, we fucking get it. Mages win at everything.
Can we please discuss something more useful?

>>52035003
I think your ST purposely gimped the mages

>interrupt casting with celerity
Only a piss poor mage is going to die to Celerity.

>>52034819
It's a welcome change to mage.

>>52035041
If we made a spirit of Mage Supremacy would the Nemesis get mad?

File: No.jpg (8KB, 260x194px) Image search: [Google]

8KB, 260x194px

>>52035041

>Can we please discuss something more useful?

>>52035003

Even applying the LeS merits against supernal magic, it only protects against direct attacks. Most mages don't use such attacks as they are generally less effective. For instance, the merits offer no protection if a mage floods a vampire's haven with sunlight or sets it aflame.

Similarly, most Mage Armor and Shielding spells render celerity interrupt less than useless, and that's without resort to vastly superior to celerity Time effects.

I guess if you're playing a Vampire chronicle, your choices are unsurprising or even necessary. However, if all Vampire and Mage rules are equally employed, at best, the LeS merits and celerity would be short-lived, very minor nuisances. In a battle between whole coteries and cabals, they would even rate as an irritant.

>>52034945

They are fine i guess, by this rules one could argue that a fetish sword with 8 again would require a rank 3 spirit instead of a rank 5 which is a less retarded option.

>>52035058
>Only a piss poor mage is going to die to Celerity

Short-Bus Mages

A guess a few of them exist, and it would probably amuse most Consilia to have them lose to adversaries as piss-poor as vampires.

>>52035154
>Masters laughing at their imbecile apprentices

Mages are such douches.

>>52034945
>Mage - Craft Fetish

Craft Fetish is an amazingly powerful spell.

With Imbuement, a mage is limited to his own Arcana. With Create Fetish, a mage is only limited by the nature and type of spirit, and thus a fetish could do virtually anything.

>>52035169
>Mages are such douches.

Douche Supremacy!

** It's the only way to explain how Brucato managed to write and edit M20

>>52035169
>Mages are such douches.

Yes, but who in the CofD is foolish enough to say such a thing to a master mage?

>>52035058
>Only a piss poor mage is going to die to Celerity

There is a fighting merit that if you interrupt an extended casting with an attack the mage not only fails the spell but is a dramatic failure

>>52035101
The way my dm handle sorcerous eunuch was that any spell targeting the vampire had the penalty such as scrying or fate spells or even shielding at melee. So if a mage is able to find the vampire haven and flood it with sunlight he is toast. However even with mage shielding getting 1 success on the mage is doable.

>>52035284
>extended casting

Oh please, do you even know how mages fight? Are you using 1e?

>>52035321

Like i said above, my dm ruled that if you used celerity to interrupt action then you can do it to normal casting mages

>>52035355

Celerity can't interrupt Reflexive actions.

>>52035373

Huh so mages cast all their magic as reflexive? Sure we miss that. It sound! incredible stupid, better to houserule it too.

>>52035284

How would Eunuch affect a mage's personal Shielding spell at all, no less a Mage Armor Attainment?

It seems your ST either doesn't know know the rules for supernal magic and attainments, or simply ignored them so your pc's had a fighting chance. I accept this necessity or preference in you're running a Vampire chronicle.

However, in a true RAW crossover, the referenced merits and Discipline would barely provide any meaningful obstacle to the Awakened. Against a cabal with a variety of Paths, the vampire abilities wouldn't even slightly delay their slaughter.

How the Crossover Chronicle deal with these issues without bluntly nerfing mages remains to be seen.

>>52035474

All i know is one option we had fun, the other is mage supremacy. Nerf those atlantean cocksucker nerf them all

>>52035426

Most Mage Armors would render the interrupt impossible or untenable, and even one mage with Time (or Forces Control Gravity or Rend Friction) would turn celerity into a deadly liability.

>>52035525

Don't forget single Reflexive Yantras.

>>52035519

As I said, I appreciate you choosing the most enjoyable option for your Vampire Chronicle. I would expect nothing less.

However, in a truly mixed game attempting to employ both sets or rules, problems will necessarily arise.

>>52035552
>Don't forget single Reflexive Yantras

The ability to employ a reflexive Yantra does not make the spell itself reflexive.

There are very few instances where a spell can be cast reflexively without prior preparation with Time.

Why do the magefags always win these thread arguments?

Have they even been put in their place before?

>>52035474
>bluntly nerfing mages remains to be seen.

You mean there is a chance we get a good mage game and no DaveB masturbating his favorite splat? Anon i am afraid of having hope.

>>52035591
>Why do the magefags always win these thread arguments

Errr... we actually read the books and apply the rules as designed and intended.

>Reading Is Fundamental

>>52035645
>and no DaveB masturbating his favorite splat?

I don't know your age or where you've been for the last few decades, but "Mage Supremacy" was a thing well before Dave ever wrote for the CofD, and existed as far back as Ascension 1e.

If you don't believe, try perusing Masters of the Art.

>>52035355
What about Instant casting?

>>52035645
>no DaveB masturbating his favorite splat?

People like you are the reason why Dave assiduously avoids crossover discussions, both in Mage books and in the forums.

>>52035645

Don't you dare diss our messiah, you disgusting pleb whore.

>>52035674

DaveB could have made mage less op and introduce the concept of difficulty in mage instead of being all about mage steamrolling everything that isnt more powerful mages because he has a "theme" and the subtlety of warhammer to the balls

>>52035591
mages are as pathetic and weak as hunters aka normal humans, the players on the other hand are autistically obsessed with their waifus, fantasy builds [aka a character that would never reach that level of skill in a single chronicle], and min/max builds that are one roll from being totally fucked by their min's. on top of that Mage is all a lot of them know, but their autism leads them to know it well, so they erroneously talk from what they think of as knowledge of wod but it's only their laser focus on their own splat, Mage weakness [not only the weakness to knots], and a hilarious ignorance of the other splats

>>52035805
>mages are as pathetic and weak as hunters

I stopped reading there

>>52035711

I have learn when houseruling mage that taking everything daveB says when people ask if something is op and doing the opposite results in a more balance game.

>>52035711
>avoids crossover discussions

implying i give a shit about crossover. Mage is op even in itself.

>>52033348
One of my favorite characters was a Moros. Lost his family as a kid, riddled with survivors guilt, thrown into an orphanage and neglected by the system that was meant to take care of him.

Suffered a near death experience saving someones life. His whole awakening was realizing that he couldnt just let himself die, as nice as it might have been, while someone was in danger.

His philosophy was, death is the easy way out and life hurts, but its worth it when you drag some poor bastard out of a fire or save your entire city from the abyss.

>>52035645
Mage is built around high power. The theme of ultimate power bringing ultimate corruption is its very foundation. Mage Supremacy is a thing because of that, not because of DaveB. I understand if this doesn't appeal to you, and how it could even really bug you that your preferred splat doesn't stand much of a chance against them RAW.

However, simply nerfing Mages wouldn't suddenly turn Mage into a more palatable game. In fact changing mechanics so that they actually clash against the lore and themes would make a big mess nobody would enjoy, except for maybe salty fans who want to see Mage brought low for just doing its job.

If Mages were to be made less powerful in a way that made the game still fun to play while not making them supreme heavyweights, they would practically have to be rewritten from the ground up, and if you're going to do that you might as well leave Mage alone and make a CofD version of Sorcerer.

Either way, I can pretty much guarantee you that the Crossover Chronicle won't actually give any satisfying solutions to crossover issues.

>>52035870
>I have learn when houseruling mage that taking everything daveB says when people ask if something is op and doing the opposite results in a more balance game.
Examples?

Do you mean balanced in game or for crossover?

>>52035591
I freely acknowledge that Mage is the most mechanically potent CofD splat. Which is why it is my least favorite 2E splat after Beast. When the only thing in the game that can viably threaten you is other mages or storyteller fiat, you might as well just play Amber Diceless or another equivalent and be done with it.

>>52035706

You mean casting as an instant action? Because then thats what i meant when i said my dm ruled that celerity could be used to interrupt casting.

>>52035949

Mage Armors are reflexive.

>>52035583

There are other ways to make a spell Reflexive, not just via the Time Arcanum.

>>52035922
Why is it such a problem that mages have other mages as antagonists? Is it not the same for all splats? Vampires have other vampires, werewolves have other werewolves, etc. Mages are also liable to run into other monsters during their adventures, such as spirits or astral demons and ghosts and cryptids and abyssals and such. Remember that not all Mages are perfectly spherical Masters and when you're kicking around at a mostly Disciple or even early Adept level there are plenty of things that can be a threat to you, especially if you aren't smart about how you do things.

>>52035647
>implying it has nothing to do with mage being the most broken piece of shit in wod of all time

Can you even taste anything of than Mage-Aid and DaveB's semen anymore anon?

>>52035896
>except for maybe salty fans who want to see Mage brought low for just doing its job.

It doesn't bother me that mage does its job - it bothers me that magefags are rubbing their shit in everyone's faces and loling about how mage is better than other splats at what other splats do.

>>52035911
>Examples?
For example in the OPP forums they were discussing whether a mage casting, say control mind in an area (or other spell in area that are withstood) for set duration with a human using willpower to boost his withstand and happen to pass.

If that set of circumstances happened whether the spell didnt affect them at all or he has to roll again the moment his turn passes and his withstand is not boosted by willpower.

Think about that. For all the chat about mage themes of power and hubris the first option fit nicely into it. You are a mage and can control a mob but once in a while a human can escape, that fit with both power and hubris and makes a human a minimal antagonist or at least a difficulty to overcome.

But no, here comes DaveB saying that is instead the second option, the boring option. The human has to withstand every fucking turn which mean boosting withstand with willpower goes from being marginal useful in that situation to fucking useless unless one could incapacitate the mage in one turn which is a very once in a lifetime opportunity.

The first option allows more story, the second option is "lol mage supremacy" and doesn't give you anything to a story more than unnecessarily driving a theme even more into the ground than what it already was.

Things like that made me realize that whenever DaveB gives his opinion about something seeming OP and he says it isnt, it really mean it is.

>Do you mean balanced in game or for crossover?

No. Just more balance by itself.

>>52036608
Every splat has their undesirables among their fanbases. Vampires have their their maximum edge goths, werewolves have their furries, mages have their supremacists.

Get over it. Bad fans don't detract from the quality of a product.

>>52027749
LIkely it'll be a setup to their teased Second Inquisition and deaths of a lot of Elders, as they stated something about that in a snippet at GM.

>>52036640
The first option actually doesn't fit the theme, in my opinion. It's hardly ultimate power if a Sleeper can resist you, and the hubris angle comes from the fact that you've become the type of person who is okay with stealing free will from other humans.

>>52033423
Hill's been an expat living in Japan for a while. Freelancers don't have to go into an office to write, after all.

>>52036176
>Why is it such a problem that mages have other mages as antagonists? Is it not the same for all splats? Vampires have other vampires, werewolves have other werewolves, etc. Mages are also liable to run into other monsters during their adventures, such as spirits or astral demons and ghosts and cryptids and abyssals and such. Remember that not all Mages are perfectly spherical Masters and when you're kicking around at a mostly Disciple or even early Adept level there are plenty of things that can be a threat to you, especially if you aren't smart about how you do things.

Problems with this. Unlike the other 2 splats, human cant EVER pose a threat to a mage.

Yes, the main antagonist of vampire and werewolves are other vampires and werewolf but the difference is i can pit a slightly more experience vampire or werewolf NPC again a player and they stand a chance.

I make a vampire with the same disciplines than the PC with with 1 more point in each and its gonna be a hard battle but the PC stands a chance. In mage you cant do that, the difference between points in arcanums is so high that a mage with 1 more point in arcanum is gonna flatten you. And this carries on further, to pit a more experience cabal against the player or even a equally experience cabal means i gotta play them wrong/not the full of their abilities otherwise the PCs are dead before they leave their house.

This makes the game feel artificial because either they are always fighting their equals or less. Or their betters make dumb decision that allow them to win. It makes the game feel artificial because the game is such "one hit fuck you"

Which ties in with you other suggestion of using ghost/spirits. Abyssal, i will grant you that can be a threat. The other 2 however, if the mage has the correlative path then he makes them their bitches, if he doesnt then he is dead there is no in between because the game is such a "one hit fuck you"

On the above topic of Reflexive actions, what are some other ways for a Mage to cast reflexively, or develop reflexive defenses.

Just curious, as I thoroughly enjoy the preparation aspect of Awakening.
Would appreciate a response.

>>52036724
>The first option actually doesn't fit the theme, in my opinion. It's hardly ultimate power if a Sleeper can resist you, and the hubris angle comes from the fact that you've become the type of person who is okay with stealing free will from other humans.

That is like saying "i dont have ultimate power over squashing ants" when once under a very set term of circumstances an after squashing 20 at the same time 1 ant climb into my hand and bit it and thus i must use a gravity machine to squash them all" Thats what i mean by driving unnecessarily a theme into the ground.

And the fact that the whole game relies on "woe is me" is the problem, thats not difficulty to overcome that just a social construct that relies on player/characters caring. One doesnt replace the other.

This anon put it better

>>52035922
>When the only thing in the game that can viably threaten you is other mages or storyteller fiat, you might as well just play Amber Diceless or another equivalent and be done with it.

>>52036766

That's what you think, I built a replica of an office out of milk crates and cellophane and that's the only place I write my freelance work.

File: 1482750355160.jpg (51KB, 564x846px) Image search: [Google]

51KB, 564x846px

Hey, I'm interested in getting into world of darkness, having played VtM the vidya, and learning that one of my favorites was a tabletop. However my game store doesn't have any books or anything, so I was hoping someone could link me something that explains all the rules and core mechanics (for a player)

>>52036894

you can get any of the rulebooks in the mega in the pastebin

>>52034327
It's in this mega: https://mega.nz/#F!YIgVwQKY!ykGezjo3qppcgHXzTKuBGQ!VZJHXRZa

It has both versions (I think you're wanting the 2nd Edition one, the one that's titled Vampire the Dark Ages?)

>>52036856
I'm honestly having difficulty understanding you. Please learn to type and articulate better.

>>52035896
>However, simply nerfing Mages wouldn't suddenly turn Mage into a more palatable game. In fact changing mechanics so that they actually clash against the lore and themes would make a big mess nobody would enjoy, except for maybe salty fans who want to see Mage brought low for just doing its job.

The themes of the game can be explore in multiple ways and some are more nuanced that the DaveB way which lack any subtlety to it. I dont need the mages to steam roll everything to explore the themes of power and hubris, even with a little power you can do that as it really only relies on player/character buy in.

Mages shoot fireballs, alter minds and give themselves luck with a more balanced escalation, with limits to their magic that force the player to think creatively.

>If Mages were to be made less powerful in a way that made the game still fun to play while not making them supreme heavyweights, they would practically have to be rewritten from the ground up, and if you're going to do that you might as well leave Mage alone and make a CofD version of Sorcerer.

Or we could just rename mage "god: The masturbation" and make a game about mages. Or just not make magic always so clean and cut, so absolute in all level all the way to archmastery. Make archmastery the power fantasy wankers game and make mage a game about mage who cast magic and dont steam roll everything and is such "one hit you dead game"

>Either way, I can pretty much guarantee you that the Crossover Chronicle won't actually give any satisfying solutions to crossover issues.

Maybe it will maybe it wont.

>>52036792
Mage Armors are reflexive, Time & Fate can apply reflexive whatnots.

Single Yantras are also reflexive, but I don't think they actually make spellcasting in-itself reflexive. Unless that's how it works, I'm only going off my limited experiences.

>>52036770
Not all conflicts are solely based on combat, and you shouldn't design antagonists in such way that they're basically "player character but stronger".

In Mage, political stuff matters, and so does the state of the Consilium. For example, a Master in the Consilium could be an antagonist for any number of reasons, and he wouldn't directly pit his strength against the player cabal because that's dumb, and could land him in hot water. Rampant Masters are something nobody wants around. Seers are subject to this also, as if they don't have much of foothold in the area or are on roughly equal terms with the Pentacle then they wouldn't want to make any overt moves that would spark an all out war that they might not win.

As for spirits and ghosts, they shouldn't pose huge challenges unless they're exceptionally powerful ones. Their main use in Mage is either to be used by a Mage or to be throw away combatants that you don't need to put much effort into developing or characterizing.

>>52036923
>I'm honestly having difficulty understanding you. Please learn to type and articulate better.

Basically this. Mage doesn't require ultimate power the way the game handles it to explore its themes.

you saying
>>52036856
>It's hardly ultimate power if a Sleeper can resist you, and the hubris angle comes from the fact that you've become the type of person who is okay with stealing free will from other humans.

You says is hardly unlimited power if an sleeper can resist you. A human also has unlimited power in comparison with an ant. However, if the human get careless then, under a specific set of circumstances, the ant can bite the human.

But going by your logic the human can never have unlimited power over ants unless he over compensate so an ant CAN NEVER EVER harm him in any way.

And then you are confusing a social construct (controlling other people free will is bad) with difficulty which arent the same. The whole "woe is me hubris" can be done if the player tries to control 20 humans at the same time and human 1 escapes or not. Because it depends on player/character buy in.

>>52037044
>For example, a Master in the Consilium could be an antagonist for any number of reasons, and he wouldn't directly pit his strength against the player cabal because that's dumb, and could land him in hot water.

Except a master has so many tools to his disposal that he can neuter the cabal before they leave the house both figuratively and literally if he is a thyrsus.

Violence or not violence, if you have forces 2 and i have forces 3 the difference between power and options is so abysmal that you cant win. Be that in violence or in any other magic related way. And thats not getting into cabals vs cabal. Unless you got one of each or players covering all the arcanums with their pcs the cabal either should be done before they leave the house or by chance all the antagonist dont posses the arcanums the player lack. Which is something unique to mage, in the other splats PC can have blind spot of that kind and still have a chance.

In mage the only thing saving them (even if violence is not the issue) is DM fiat.

>>52036965
Mages aren't always steamrollers. All Mages aren't perfectly spherical Masters, why do I have to keep saying this?

In DaveB's very own actual plays, his players face danger, and from more things than other Mages. In Soul Cage one of his PC's fucking died from a Cryptid, and would have stayed dead if not for an Acanthus rewinding time. Same game, fear spirits fucking ambushed them and gave them a hell of a fight.

I also don't understand how you think magic isn't already used creatively in the game. It actually encourages it, with its wide range of influence and creative thaumaturgy system. If a player just brute forces his way through everything then that's on him, and it's his prerogative to do so. Nothing would be gained by "forcing" players to be creative. Either they want to be creative or they don't. There's nothing wrong with taking a simple, utilitarian approach to casting.

And all of the splats lend themselves to power fantasy wanking.

And the crossover chronicle won't fix anything because balance is a pipe dream that won't make anything better.

I also want to hear how you would take nuanced approached to themes and such.

>>52037063
>A human also has unlimited power in comparison with an ant.
Except they don't. An analogy isn't an argument. You can't just say "ants can hurt humans so humans should be able to hurt Mages". That doesn't make any sense on its own.

I also can't understand the rest of your post.

>>52037193
>And all of the splats lend themselves to power fantasy wanking

But none like Mage

>>52037152
>Except a master has so many tools to his disposal that he can neuter the cabal before they leave the house both figuratively and literally if he is a thyrsus.
Did you not read my post? I don't feel like you did. The master, thyrsus or no, wouldn't be able to outright neuter the cabal at all, if he even knew that they were moving against him. Actions have consequences, and for a Master consequences can get pretty high. For example, any spells he casts on the cabal would leave a resonance that could be uncovered in the investigation, even if he used magic to mask it. That would be proof against him, which would place him under suspicion, which would get the attention of the Consilium at large, because suspicious Masters are a real fucking danger. So one cabal "neutered", and about 10 or so more on his case.

>>52027290
Dive into spirit world by consuming hallucinogenic plants makes her disjointed from family and puts her on the path of seeking deeper knowledge about dreams and dreamwalking. She also loose all her friends cos they no longer understand her wisdom. You know, like all thyrsus.
She fights with her inner guardians and gain spirit allies as main stuff show tell.

>>52037303
So?

>>52037193
>In DaveB's very own actual plays

I read broken diamond and frankly many of the things that gave drama were the players playing their character wrong.

Example: There is a scene in which the matter mage (i think he was a moros) damascus doesnt join the party into a house, the former house of then dead guardian of the veil boss, because the guardian had set a soulstone to be a anti-demesne agaisnt matter.

He said he wouldn't be of much use because he wouldn't be able to use matter. Except that is just gives a fucking -2. That shit is weak sauce, oh poor matter mage he is so limited with a fucking -2 that is either negligible if he either chants for 1 turn or just uses a rote.

>>52037193
>Nothing would be gained by "forcing" players to be creative. Either they want to be creative or they don't. There's nothing wrong with taking a simple, utilitarian approach to casting.

There is plenty wrong, for one is bland, boring and flavorless. Mage ascension for all its flaws it forced the player to think with their paradigm as their limit. They couldnt do everything so they have to handle themselves with what their paradigm allows. Could a mage make a paradigm that allows everything? Sure, but that relies in a DM who was shit.

Since we're going on about mages. Can magic heal aggravated damage cause by a bane?

For example a friendly werewolf got fucked up pretty badly last session with silver. The Thrysus has enough xp banked to hit Life 4 we're just not certain if he can help.

>>52037328

No, okay we got misunderstood each other. I though you were referring to a indirect combat when you said the whole non combat thing. For example a battle of influence for the control of police department for example.

Thats what i meant by saying that a Master could neuter the cabal figuratively with his range of options, the whole thyrsus neutering was a joke. A mage of 1 superior arcana than the PC (not even getting into masters vs arcanum 2 mages) have such variety of option that he can surpass his lesser in any field of magic.

As you said, sure the master cant attack or cast a spell on the PCs without there being political consequences but the other way around is true. However, they can attack each other assets and influences in which the mage of 1 superior arcanum (assuming both have the same) is leagues above the lesser one.

>>52037458
>Since we're going on about mages. Can magic heal aggravated damage cause by a bane?
>For example a friendly werewolf got fucked up pretty badly last session with silver. The Thrysus has enough xp banked to hit Life 4 we're just not certain if he can help.

I dont have the book with me but i think as long as the werewolf doesn't have resistant damage he can, but the mage needs life 3 or 4.

>>52037193
>And the crossover chronicle won't fix anything because balance is a pipe dream that won't make anything better.

i am not talking about balance against the other splat. What i want is weaker mages who can face "difficulty" this alien concept completely absent from awakening.

>>52037362
Damascus did go into the sanctum with them, and was pivotal in them getting in there, since he used Mind and Prime to mimic Malakii's (dead GotV boss) resonance to activate the entry portal.

Dave also said in a footnote that he only had the anti-demesne in the game because he thought it was cool, because the soul stone was part of the plot, and because it fit Malakaii's paranoid personality. He didn't put it in there as an obstacle. Damascus never even needed to cast a Matter spell while in the sanctum, and no combat happened inside.

>There is plenty wrong, for one is bland, boring and flavorless
So? The fact remains that players CAN be creative, and that the system encourages it and provides plenty of tools to do so. And sometimes there are problems that require creative solutions. However, if a player wants to be "bland, boring, and flavorless" you should let them, especially if that's part of his character. Paradigm was a retarded mechanic borne of retarded fluff, and ignoring it is something that happened a lot. Nothing has been lost by not forcing players into a playstyle.

I NEED HELP

What are some ways for a mage to deal with Celerity? I'm about to run something and need answers ASAP.

>>52037467
>As you said, sure the master cant attack or cast a spell on the PCs without there being political consequences but the other way around is true. However, they can attack each other assets and influences in which the mage of 1 superior arcanum (assuming both have the same) is leagues above the lesser one.
Yes, which makes for a good punching up conflict, if you ask me. You're the same anon who wants creative solutions to be encouraged, right? Well how you beat a Mage who has a better grasp of magic than you, while neither of you can take any overt actions against each other?

You get creative.

>>52037193
>I also want to hear how you would take nuanced approached to themes and such.

Simple by making magic not as absolute as it is now. Hubris have many facets, its all "you can steam roll sleepers and thus woe is me"?

Not it shouldnt. Hubris can be "you can control 20 people with mind" Well be careful because sometimes in a blue moon a sleeper gets away and he knows what you did because there isnt any magical fairy dust bullshit to erase his memory.

Your hubris made you cast the spell to 20 people, and now as a result a hunter is against your cabal. And no fairy dust and reflexive shield means he might get lucky and shot your ass with a shotgun.

Hubris means you can only go back turns, not scenes so when you got ever confident in a combat you might ran out of turns. Or that you can never be completely sure how much damage you are doing with a fireball, if you kill someone by accident is still on you and your irresponsible casting.

Those are example of how the rules could work and still focus on hubris as theme without being "lol, mage supremacy" as DaveB did it.

>>52027158
>What's your favorite Discipline and what's the most creative way you used it?
Requiem 2e Animalism. The standard animal spy is always nice, but you can also get a giant freezer and keep a bunch of medium sized animals on ice. When you need to get a lot of animals on short notice you pop open the freezer and use Animalism 2 to raise them as familiars.

>>52037510
Except difficulty isn't absent from Awakening.

You seem to be flip-flopping between "Mage isn't hard enough!" and "Mage is too hard!".

>>52037572
Time 3 to go as fast as someone in Celerity, it's literally the same thing. Forces to target them and remove their friction. If NWoD, Space, if OWoD, Correspondence to ban + Death if they know it's a vampire.

>>52037546
>Paradigm was a retarded mechanic borne of retarded fluff, and ignoring it is something that happened a lot

It got ignore by shitty dm, and you are an idiot paradigm was awesome.

>>52037510
What you think about mini-awakening trips where players face their psychological traumas and some sort of spirit guardians when they are about to lvlup gnosis/arcana? Like "You want gnosis 4 but there is something in your past that holding you against this revelation and you must fix yourself to be closer to excellence". This sort of thing appears sometimes in esoteric stuff.

>>52037609
>And no fairy dust and reflexive shield means he might get lucky and shot your ass with a shotgun

What makes you think the mage won't have contingencies for such an attack?

>>52037582
>Yes, which makes for a good punching up conflict, if you ask me. You're the same anon who wants creative solutions to be encouraged, right? Well how you beat a Mage who has a better grasp of magic than you, while neither of you can take any overt actions against each other?
>You get creative.

Unless you have other mages with different arcanum you both lack you cant. The other guy has the same abilities than you and more that you cant counter or phantom.

On the magic vs magic approach of course. But we start factor in non magical merits and skill the discussion derail from the problem of escalation in mage.

>>52031975
>>52032318
I say make it a merit.

>>52037627

Could a mage erect a constant kinetic shield around himself to prevent surprise Celerity attacks?

>>52037657
>What you think about mini-awakening trips where players face their psychological traumas and some sort of spirit guardians when they are about to lvlup gnosis/arcana? Like "You want gnosis 4 but there is something in your past that holding you against this revelation and you must fix yourself to be closer to excellence". This sort of thing appears sometimes in esoteric stuff.

I dont remember that being part of mage the awakening like i never read a rule that said "you can raise arcanum/gnosis unless after a seeking like quest"

I didnt like them in ascension as i dont like astral but thats more for the fact that is a neat idea but it takes a very skillful dm to pull it off.

>>52037675
Mages are still people, who still live their life. Strange, different, alien but life. Let other splats target that human they still are, until second awakening they still are.

If you mean the seekings in ascension>>52037623
>You seem to be flip-flopping between "Mage isn't hard enough!" and "Mage is too hard!".

I never once complained that mage is too hard to play, except mentioning how it has an escalation problem in which the difference between a mage or arcanum 2 and 3 is the same as a neonate and a 4 generation from masquerade which causes running it becoming a nightmare of DM fiat.

>>52037609
Magic should be absolute.

Mages, however, are not. Again, no perfectly spherical Masters. They just aren't a thing.

In any event that one Sleeper wouldn't know anything, because of the Lie and Quiescence.

Getting rid of reflexive shields wouldn't change anything either, because before they were a thing you could just spend one Mana to make a shield last all day or imbue an item with a shield spell.

Fireballs, that's a Master level spell. Very dangerous, true. However thanks to paradox it is highly unlikely that you'll burn any innocents to a crisp, seeing as anybody around to get hit would be supernatural. Also unlikely that you would use such a powerful spell without the intention of burning some motherfuckers.

Those are all shitty examples and don't actually fix or change anything. Hubris isn't "fuck I got too big for my britches now I'm dead". The whole point of Mage is that they ARE big enough for those britches, but in the process of getting that big they've essentially lost their humanity because that's what power fucking does to people.

Again, it sounds like you'd be happier with a CofD version of Sorcerer. Mage is designed with a goal in mind, and it hits that goal.

>>52037740
>I never once complained that mage is too hard to play
>except when i did

>>52037764

>>52037734
>Let other splats target that human they still are, until second awakening they still are.

What you talking about? We were talking about 2 mages of the same arcanums but one with 1 more point in each and how much the latter outclass the former even in a war of influences.

Nobody talked about other splats.

>>52037755
Can you point me were i did? I honestly cant find it.

>>52037638
Paradigm was shit. It never had a chance, since Ascension's lore and fluff were all pretty much shit anyway.

>Magic is just the ability to warp reality by wishing really hard, literally nothing else
>Any meaning behind it is entirely artificial, literally nothing but character delusions

It's a lazy as fuck cop out. Say what you will about Awakening but at least it actually tries to make magic into something unique to that setting.

>>52037675
You aren't fucking getting it dude. Coming at the guy directly with magic is not creative, and thanks to peripheral Mage Sight it's not a good idea anyway, no matter what Arcana either of you have.

>>52037744

You asked me how would i make the themes of hubris in a more nuanced way. And that way is by getting rid of quiesence, reflexive and/or perma magic shield.

>>52037744
>Fireballs, that's a Master level spell. Very dangerous, true. However thanks to paradox it is highly unlikely that you'll burn any innocents to a crisp, seeing as anybody around to get hit would be supernatural. Also unlikely that you would use such a powerful spell without the intention of burning some motherfuckers.

I am pretty sure that attacking someone directly with magic is a 4 not 5 arcanum. And even when you attack you can set how much damage you do with the rules now.

>>52037744
>Hubris isn't "fuck I got too big for my britches now I'm dead".

That is a definition of hubris and one that would fit more a game about mages than

>>52037744
>The whole point of Mage is that they ARE big enough for those britches, but in the process of getting that big they've essentially lost their humanity because that's what power fucking does to people.

because a) Thats only have an effect if the player cares about it or subscribes to that morality.

b) The other one has multiples effects on the game while "Woe is me" only have a IC effect if any.

>>52037744
>Again, it sounds like you'd be happier with a CofD version of Sorcerer. Mage is designed with a goal in mind, and it hits that goal.

Again, they wont release a CofD version of sorcerers but what they might do if nerf mages in crossover chronicles to the point of being a game of "fuck I got too big for my britches now I'm dead"