/osrg/ - Old School Renaissance General

What's the best module to hook people into the hobby? One with a low-level entry (in player skill), ramping difficulty, and a bit of everything when it comes to flavor.
I'm using B/X btb and I'm very strict with resource/time tracking, if that matters.

Goblin Punch

>>51969716
B4 The Lost City

>>51969059
>Labyrinth Lord
It's okay

>Swords and Sorcery
If you mean Swords and Wizardry I hate Finch so I won't touch it.

>>51969729
Seconded.

Can I get some ideas on how to make my Wasteland Raiders more interesting?

D&D Wth Pornstars, Monsters and Manuals, Goblin Punch, and Monster Manual Sewn from Pants.

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>What's your favorite old school renaissance blog?

tenfootpole.org is the obvious winner for me. That said, I am noticing the quantity over quality recently, I'd love it if Bryce took some time to actually run some of the modules he reviews. Maybe a "best versus the worst" kind of thing, because some of the best modules to read/review don't seem all that fun to play at the table.

The Alexandrian has solid advice and Zak S. is obvious.

I discovered Save Vs. Dragon (New Big Dragon Games' blog) from the last thread and holy shit it's solid. Guy does cool art/design/homebrew, though he's a bit too trigger-happy on the takedown requests for my liking.

>>51969964
>>51970090
>shilling the pornographer's hipster drivel

I bet you also approved of his tranny vampire who kills republicans.

>>51970145
Gr8 b8 m8.

>>51969772
>If you mean Swords and Wizardry I hate Finch so I won't touch it.

Why?

I disagree with his Quick Primer that gets posted a lot (old school games have thief skills and dice rolls for traps, for fuck's sake), but the other content he's made is pretty solid. In fact I'd recommend Tomb of the Iron God to >>51969716

>>51970145
The fuck are you bitching about?

I just like weird shit, and they're fucking weird.

Plus, they have good ideas on mechanics.

I get a lot out of Dungeon Of Signs and Monsters and Manuals. They both have a more subtle weirdness and theoretical/academic approach that suits me. Their content has slowed down a lot over the years but that's okay.

Dungeon Of Signs did Prison Of The Hated Pretender and Monsters & Manuals did Yoon-suin.

>>51970190
The snob grog attitude from his Quick Primer crystallized by dislike for him.

Kinda like how Raggi's shtick about
>hoho silly americans here's tits and gore don't be so uptight art is supposed to offend! but racism is bad and wrong and i don't want black people in my game because then i'd have to include slavery and that would be offensive :(

Means I hate LOFTP on principle.

>>51970168
>>51970225
Vampire: The Masquerade Prelude - My Friends are Dead and We all Eat Blood, written by Zak S. features two transsexual vampires, one kills Republicans.

Go ask the weirdoes over here >>51957776

>>51970324
Oh, not a fan of Vampire, more of a Changeling the Lost guy.

Also, give no shits about their politics.

>>51970382
>Also, give no shits about their politics.
That's good because now the big bads are anti-immigration (Mage's Technocracy) and global warming (Werewolf's Wyrm).

Oh, whoops.
Just posted this in the old thread (page 7), but it's been dead for an hour.

>>51968869
>But all other things neutral why use roll under and not over?
I like it when target numbers are equal to chance of success.
It makes it REALLY easy to see the consequences of a bonus/penalty.
Also, it's less math.

>>51970324
Who cares?

>>51970287

I don't agree with the whole metal gimmick Raggi has going on, but I did listen to this interview and he seems nice:

http://blasphemoustomes.com/2015/10/27/episode-64-the-good-friends-talk-to-james-raggi-creator-of-lamentations-of-the-flame-princess/

I was surprised to learn he's American and not Finnish.

I guess there are political issues that come up with historical fantasy and I don't know how he addresses them, but Better than Any Man seems fairly brutal. If you want to use issues like racism and slavery, what's stopping you from inserting them? After all, many of these modules are set in historical Europe and they encourage you to do your own research.

>>51969716
S2 - White Plume Mountain

>>51970090
I think it would be interesting if with the Dungeon magazine reviews he took the adventure that was most promising and worked it into something better/converted it to osr. Might not be his bag though, a lot of the time critiques aren't the best at making stuff. Not talking shit, I like the reviews a lot.

It would be a cool project for anyone to do. Rework an adventure from Dungeon. Could probably get easy access to osrblogosphere via 10ftpole.

>>51970450
You didn't answer the question.

>>51970448

>Dungeon Magazine has conditioned me to throw up in my mouth a little every time I read "the party must race to ..."

One of my favourite quotes from him in recent memory, and it sums up the whole problem perfectly.

I could be wrong but the Dungeon Magazine adventures weren't RPGA/Living Wherever/Adventurer's League adventures, so if you remove all the time limits and allow the characters to do whatever, then nothing breaks. Let them use Knock to open the door instead of deciding it has an Anti-Magic Field and requires A Very Specific Key, for heaven's sake.

Also from his Dungeon Magazine #123 article:

>Still, it has empty skill checks (“If the party doesn’t make the check a random sailor points the fact out.”)

It's so sad that I grew up thinking adventures written like this were fine.

>>51970190
>old school games have thief skills and dice rolls for traps, for fuck's sake
Maybe take another look at your rules there, pal?
Thieves roll to detect or disarm SMALL traps (poison-needle launchers, explosive runes, etc.)
The vast majority of traps are beyond the purview if thief skills.

I feel like I really need to ask this:

What does /osr/ think about A Quick Primer for Old School Gaming?

I've never seen it criticized a few posts ago.

>>51970579

I mean rules like this, from Moldvay:

>Any character has a 1 in 6 chance of finding a trap when searching for one in the correct area. Any dwarf has a 2 in 6 chance. (This does not apply to magical traps, such as a sleep trap.) Checking a specific area for a trap will take one full turn.

According to Finch, it goes like this:

>John the Roguish: "I search for traps!"
>GM: "How are you searching for traps?"
>John the Roguish: "Well, I'm poking and prodding the walls."
>GM: "You discover no traps."
>John the Roguish: "What about the statue? I'll poke and prod that, probing to see if--"
>GM: "You discover no traps."
>John the Roguish: "Look, is there a general rule that assumes I'm searching for traps where I can take one turn and someone rolls a die and--"
>GM: "OF COURSE NOT! PLAYER SKILL! REEEE--!"

Meanwhile, in Modern Style games:

>John the Roguish: "I search for traps!"
>GM: "Okay, make a Search check!"
>John the Roguish: "18!"
>GM: "All right, you prod the ground and discover a pit trap in the north corridor."

I hate skill checks as much as the next grog, but come on. Stuff like this has always been a part of the game.

>>51970701

It's a little bit pamhpleteerish, but I think it gets the gist across okay.

>>51970701
>DUDE THERE WERE NEVER ROLLPLAYERS IN THE GOOD OLD DAYS AND PLAYING OLD DEEANDEE MAKES YOU SMARTER US 80S KIDS AMIRITE LMAO

>>51970701
It got me into the idea of OSR games but it's very biased. I'd like a more objective guide, myself.

>>51970717
This is why I am a simple skill set proponent.

IMO I feel like it's simply trying too hard to catch 4e burnouts. See >>51970717

>>51970755
Biased towards...?

>>51970788
Basically what >>51970739 says. It presents both playstyles as generally mutually exclusive.

This the perfect wandering monster table for any generic 1st level adventure, Floor 1:

1. Goblins x5
2. Giant rats x4
3. Skeletons x3
4. Zombie x1
5. Giant centipede x2
6. Stirge x2

Prove me wrong

>>51970923
Add in a weird one or at least a

7. GM's choice

(and then roll a d7 instead)

>>51970717
>I mean rules like this, from Moldvay
Simplification for Basic.

Thieves a la. Greyhawk, AD&D, and even 2e can only Find/Remove Traps on small traps or alarms.
In 2e (and AD&D?) they also use Find/Remove Traps to avoid gaze attacks. For whatever reason.

>>51970950
DM's choice it's the last thing I want to read on a random table.
I'm rolling so I don't have to decide, ffs.

What would make a weird but also generic monster?

>>51970980
>What would make a weird but also generic monster?
Owlbear. Mimic. Doppelganger. Nilbog.

>>51970980
Roll again, but with X? e.g. the monsters have +1 HD die. Mutant goblins. Winged giant rats. Obsidian skeletons.

>>51970980
Just add a random generic weird table to roll on that adds to the wandering monster.

1.Glows evil green
2.Covered in fungus
3.Too many eyes
4.Sings lullabies
5.Fish mutant version
6.Dressed like townspeople

>>51969598
>What's your favorite old school renaissance blog?
I like Goblin Punch and False Machine, of course. Dungeon of Signs has been growing a lot in my esteem since Anon posted a link to some adventures from there, though. I really like a number of his maps and ideas.

>>51971126
>>51971113
I like a mix of those, but you'd need another list for a tactic/gimmick - otherwise players would get used to the 'goblin+fungus? it must be the same but with more hp!'

1. Steals
2. Explodes (at death / failed morale / at contact)
3. Parasite/Symbiotic (treat as 2 critters)
4. Enhanced (morale / surprise / AC / Strength / ... )
5. Formation breaker (sniper / aerial / swarm)
6. Smartass (ambushes / parleys / bribes / ... )

>>51969598
>What's your favorite old school renaissance blog?
Elfmaids & Octopi. Retarded amounts of random tables ranging from a kind of generic d100 Forbidden Castles to utterly hilarious d100 Tragic Murder Hobos.

>>51969598
>What's your favorite old school renaissance blog?
it hasn't updated in forever, but http://gameswithothers.blogspot.co.nz/ is still one of my favorites, really want to run something in his Troll World idea someday

>>51971362
Parasite/Symbiotic could mean rolling another wandering monster and combining them.

Can always add in preferred targets at random too.
1. Elves, they hate elves
2. Shorter than 5', thinks they're children thus tasty
3. Magic Users, drawn to drink magical blood
4. Highest Str, got the most meat on 'em
5. Highest Int, to eat their juicy brains
6. Brightest coloured clothing, armour, etc.

>Goblins with Stirges on strings dressed like human children who target enemies with the brightest clothing to salvage into outfits for their pets.

>MIRRORS
>It is important for DMs to remember that in order to be reflective, a mirror must have a light source.

???

>>51972154
"You can't turn out the light so you can't see the basilisk, but then still use a mirror against it to petrify it."

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>>51969716

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From last thread

>>51967703

>Why the -2 to +2 modifiers
The reason why I settled on +2 to -2 is because I liked the really oldschool reasoning behind even a small modifier of +1 from a very high stat being a good thing, but I felt that was a little weak on its own. I am also autistic and like round numbers, so for me to say that your maximum bonus/negative to something from your character's stats alone can be up to + or -10% just feels right.

>the rest
Hey thanks, really appreciate it. I'm trying to make it as good as possible, so every rule has to encourage a behavior or make the game more fun.

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Anyone like the idea of running an OSR zombie apocalypse campaign?

> highly lethal
> focused on player decisions
> not a lot of rules
> hexcrawl would be cool for exploring
> scavenging rules would be fun

I feel like building this RPG. I just like rolling 3d6 for stats so much, its incredibly enjoyable to me. Is there a way I could balance it so that every character is "fair"? Maybe a seventh stat that is 80 - your other six scores, that is like your Luck or something?

I also feel like making a generic / multi-genre OSR-style game. Something with the 3-18 stats range but the GURPS skill system (where your stats are in the 10 to 15 range, mostly, and are relevant to your stats).

I've seen Necropalyx but I am wondering what else is out there.

>>51972417
By-the-book, 50% of town/city encounters in LBB are undead.

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>>51972220AMAZING

Pick one mechanic you hate and try to find some good in it.

I don't like the traditional saves much. The Ref/For/Wis from 3.0 and DCC make more sense to me, but I see the way the traditional 5 serve their purpose well.

>>51972761 Bonuses for Strength and Intelligence, besides xp, make them relevant (beyond being a "role guide") when you aren't playing the associated class. There's no defending the Wisdom stat though.

>>51972820
>There's no defending the Wisdom stat though.
It gives bonus to saving throws

>>51972962
So do levels.

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>>51972962
It was added at the last minute as the "aptitude stat" for Clerics, a class which was added at the last minute.
I'm not saying Clerics are bad, but I am saying the stats had blurbs on how they should influence character actions and referee arbitration.
To this end, Wisdom got pic related. What part of it seems necessary?

OSR STATS.

Str: Fightin' shit
Con: Healthy shit
Dex: Agile shit
Int: Magic shit
Wis: God Shit
Cha: Useless shit

>>51973080
There are 3 aptitude stats and 3 stats for bonuses.
3 is the magic number.

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>>51973349
>Cha: Useless shit

>Charisma
>useless
>OSR

>>51973349
[Five 3s and 18 Charisma] is SIGNIFICANTLY better than [Five 18s and 17 Charisma]

>>51973349
We found the imposter.

Please stay and learn about OSR!

hey /osr/ what happens on your table when someone rolls a '1' on an attack roll.

>>51973552
nothing because a 5% chance for an experienced warrior to do something stupid every attack is silly

>>51973349
>henchmen
>useless
>in some interpretations in some editions you can up and make monsters, especially charmed ones, into henchmen/retainers

>>51973552
I like to narrate how the PC humiliates himself, cuts off his own hand, or whatever else because he was stupid enough to do something in combat other than cast a spell or engage in improv. D&D is supposed to be a game of the imagination, not "hur I attack"

>>51973583
Honestly, the Reaction Role adjustment is more valuable.

>>51973552
I spend way too much time making them roll another die and looking at a fumble table. It's getting pretty old so I think I'll change it to having something in the combat environment changing or getting triggered or something.

>>51970974
>In 2e (and AD&D?) they also use Find/Remove Traps to avoid gaze attacks.
I don't believe you.

I want to get a campaign started soon. I want to prep a hex map. Maybe not the entire thing. Just broad strokes and a fleshed out starting hex.

...how do you stay motivated long enough to get that much ready?

>>51973749

>...how do you stay motivated long enough to get that much ready?

You either do it or you don't.

>>51973749
My players and getting sleep deprived helps.

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>>51973583
>using henchmen

>>51973749
Just break it down into small goals. Do X* hexes every day. Once you've got like 30 done you can start and flesh more out in your spare time.
*X varies based on how detail packed and big your hexes are.

>>51973749
>how do you stay motivated long enough to get that much ready?

Try the Pomodoro method?

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>>51973552
I break out my fuckin Fumble table (I prefer DCCs). Likewise for Nat 20s.

>>51973749
http://wizardawn.and-mag.com/tool_world.php

Generate a random map. Have at least 3 ideas for what they'll run into first. Literally make everything up as you go along.

>>51973749
Print a 50x30 (or whatever) map, sit down, and fill in hexes. You can fill them all in with ~6 minutes.
Make write-ups for individual hexes or random tables for areas whenever you find yourself spacing out over the next few days.
"When you space out" is an AWFUL time to do serious thinking, but it's a FANTASTIC time to jot down one or two gems.

>>51973844

How else are you going to haul that treasure out? And who's going to hold the torches when you're fighting? Who's going to help you form the shield wall across the passage to keep your party from being surrounded as you slowly retreat?

>>51973917
The rest of your party, you pussy. Or play 2 actual characters. Henchmen should be done away with.

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I'm stuck.

I've been asked by a group of total noobs to run a "classic" dungeon crawl. "Like Dark Souls", they said. "Really old school, with traps and maps and oozes and wizards."

So I've got a system and a bestiary and a magic system all sorted out. The usual worries of /osr/ aren't mine.

But for the life of me, I can't figure out what else to add to the First Dungeon.

Pic related. It's the side view.

Top bit is a false tomb of the "Snake Men", who were really just people who worshipped the remains of the dead empire of the /real/ snake men.

False tomb has a few traps, some gold, and some skeletons. Nothing crazy.

But there's easy access to the True Tomb (of the not-actually-Snake-Men) underneath. There are mummy fragments (bits of semi-dissolved mummy), and some more traps, and a bit of treasure.

To get deeper, you have to get past the Temple Guard, a giant knight golem who lives in a room made of shields. He throws shields at you while hitting you with his sword. You might be able to trick him.

And then.... what else.

What's below all that? What's bolted on to the burial chambers of a semi-barbarian shamman snake-man-worshipping king?

>>51973917
"Henchman" is a pretty bad choice of word since it sounds like "trivially exploited goon" rather than "demi-PC"

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>>51973941
I'm willing to grant that yes, that's an opinion you can have.

Are you willing to grant that it's not the /only/ opinion people have?

It's not like you're tapping into some deep objective truth or "doing it objectively right."

>>51973941

The party is carrying useful gear, and even with 6 guys we couldn't carry all that treasure out, there's thousands of coins needed before we can level up, and leaving mos of a massive score because we can't carry it all sucks! Have you even played OSR before?

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>>51973945

Sorry, what? There's a tomb of the fake snake guys and a tomb of the slightly less fake snake guys?

So the dungeon is snek and mummy themed but only has a few skellingtons and a giant fuckin golem?

It may be good, but that sounds like a truly bizarre power escalation.

>>51973988
No, because every opinion I have is the right one.

>>51973992
I've ran OSR games for years and not once, ever, had any henchmen in any game.

>>51974024
Ok, but you being bad at the game isn't anyone's problem but your own.

>>51974036
>players have a blast
>still consistently challenged
>I have fun as well

Bad at the game?

>>51973945
Why not a collapsed tunnel segment that leads to an underground den of real snakemen? So you have the false tomb, the true tomb of the false snakemen, and then the home of the true snakemen, possibly with a true tomb of true snake men beneath that.

>>51974044
Yup.

>don't like other people's fun, want people to stop having it the wrong way

+

>don't like options that are boosts to the action economy in units of 100

Covers both senses one can say someone's "bad" at the game in.

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>>51974003
There was an ancient empire of actual snake people. Head like a snake, arms like a human, body like a snake, mind like a steel trap filled with hateful drugged ferrets.

They had a nice empire. It fell apart.

Then some barbarians stumbled across the ruins and, ancient aliens style, went "wow, these guys were neat. Let's start using magic and surgery to make ourselves snake-like, because /clearly/ these guys were awesome." They repurposed some of the snake-men temples and artifacts.

They had a nice empire. It fell apart.

Now the PCs have stumbled into the picture.

Heirarchy goes

[Fake Tomb of the Fake Snake Guys]
[Tomb of the Fake Snake Guys]
???
[Real Snake Guy Stuff Not Necessarily Tombs]

Fake Snake guy aesthetics are a mix of the barbarian tribes they once were, combined with the much more sophisticated Real Snake Men architecture and art. Their "giant golem" is only about 8' tall and is mostly stone, copper, and wood. Stats as an Ogre.

>>51974076
Nah.

>>51973945
>What's below all that? What's bolted on to the burial chambers of a semi-barbarian shamman snake-man-worshipping king?
A really, really, really, really big snake.

>>51974044
So, I'm not gonna say you are having badwrongfun like the other guy but, if you are having people play multiple characters, isn't that about the same as using henchmen just without having to rely on morale or charisma? You can't really shame us for following rules you choose to ignore that come out to the same thing. So I mean, you do you man, its cool.

>>51974084
What you should do is, somewhere down the line, throw in Tainted Ones (fake Yuan Ti Purebloods), Purebloods, Abominations, and some sort of mummy escalation as well, with Pseudo-Mummies (MM2; pseudo undead are a favorite concept of mine), Adherers, and then real Mummies.

>>51974084
The final boss should be a Mummy Serpent Lord, who is just a normal (dead) mummy in a sarcophagus filled with really pissed off snakes. A snake cultist casts Speak with Animals on them periodically to get missions, but they're just snakes.

>>51974139
>that come out to the same thing

Except that with multiple PCs you eliminate the morale rules and other concerns, making the game easier. Which is fine if you want to do that, but it's not the same thing as using the henchmen rules.

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>>51974132
Well, yeah.

But what did the Real Snake Guys build /above/ their god but below the surface?

>>51973945
>What's below all that?
Portal to Hell.
Portal to the Plane of Earth.
A modern day Grocery Store full of Owlbears.
Svirfneblin who tunneled into the tomb.
The TRUE True Tomb, the "True King" was just a puppet ruler.
Or kick it up a notch: The TRUE False Tomb, then the TRUE True Tomb.
Portal to Double Hell.
The Bottomless Pit bisects a Mindflayer city.
Mirror to an alternate universe where up and down are inverted.
As with all mineshafts, the Bottomless Pit is flooded with water.
A tunnel runs through the tomb, 14 miles in either direction.

>>51974168
Still comes out the same in the end, the player playing multiple characters and having fun. Difficulty and crunch are the optional part and have no impact on the end result. So yes, its the same damn thing. Stop stirring shit for giggles man.

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>>51974049
>Why not a collapsed tunnel segment that leads to an underground den of real snakemen?

That might work. Maybe like the degenerate remains of the actual snake-men?

The Albino Workers were created in the heyday of the Serpent Empire. They are immortal, but completely without free will. They are strong, but cannot harm their masters - the thought would not occur to them, and powerful gene-magic protects their minds. They tirelessly laboured to build the great temples. The Serpent Kings did use other slaves, because they liked the variety and the screaming, but the Albino Workers were their elite corps.

When the empire fell, the workers endured. They were found by the barbarians who claimed the ruins and worshiped as oracles and sages. When the barbarian empire fell as well, the workers still endured, trapped in their lavish temple-palaces, without food or distraction or purpose.

They are all insane, and they are powerfully hungry.

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>>51974164
Oh yeah, stealing that for the Grand [Fake] Tomb.

Just a mummy /filled/ with angry snakes, and a tiny homonculus riding in its hollow head, casting spells.

>>51974246
Well, I was more thinking something more satirical about layers and layers of false tombs and true tombs and true-false tombs and false false tombs and so on, but that works too.

The question is, have the workers been eating eachother all this time? Because that would be pretty damn cool. Insane half starved snake slaves who realise they can return to the surface and eat and potentially reunite with their masters.

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>>51974141
I'm not sure these players are ready for pseudo-undead yet.

I mean, they are /total/ noobs. Never even heard of Mummy Rot. Never seen a pit trap. No idea about bashing vs slashing damage or the effects of rot grubs and green slime.

It's wonderful.

>>51973044
levels + wis = even higher throws.

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>>51974304
They've been eating each other, but only to pass the time. They're toothless and they don't have the ingenuity to invent tools.

One big fat albino might burst to reveal a dozen human-sized albinos, who have lived in his belly for decades. It was their turn.

And yes, the goal is to have a whole heap of tombs - false tombs, real tombs, monuments, shitty goblin fake tombs, tribute tombs, tombs of other civilizations the Snake Men conquered and stole, etc.

>>51974370
I like to imagine this as some sort of moronic tomb based game of telephone. Down at the bottom, miles and miles below the ground, you have the original, true, 100% authentic tomb of Thesna Keman, ancient human warlord. Every layer of snakeman worship was based on reading errors.

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>>51974407
Heh, the Real Snakemen only turned up because the were barbarian snakes (don't ask) who stumbled across the ancient tomb of Hal Dhorakis, beast-man warlord and went "wow, these guys were neat. Let's start using magic and surgery to make ourselves human-like, because /clearly/ these guys were awesome"....

Of course, that was thousands of years and several dynasties ago...

>>51974024
henchmen should be done away with as a concept because you never utilized it in your own games?

sounds retarded bro.

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>>51974451
Just move on, anon. Clearly, mr

>No, because every opinion I have is the right one.
>>51974024

Isn't posting in good faith.

>>51974173
Giant tunnels for the giant snake to crawl through once it ascends. It hasn't happened yet so they decided to build a railway system in it so they'd get to various worship chambers faster.

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Why did no one tell me these had different art?

>>51974559
why is that guy wearing a bow for a moustache?

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>>51974521
Ancient cultures decided chasm was for sacrifices, started tossing in bodies and treasure to appease the giant serpent at the bottom. Some cultures to throw criminals or dangerous magic items down. Some decided throwing anything down was a bad idea, but they were easily wiped out by the tribes and civilizations that /loved/ to chuck stuff down the bottomless pit.

This really annoyed the serpent.

Then the goblins started using it as a sewer.

>>51974593

>>>/fa/
>>>/fa/
>>>/fa/

>>51973945
Build up.
The [False Temple] is below (or within) the [Cave Network] full of snakes and shit.
The [Cave Network] is below the extensive [Catacombs], with a 5th level MU and maybe a few Bandits (but otherwise uninhabited).
The [Catacombs] are below (or within) the [Ruins], which have two rival Goblin tribes. One led by a council of Hobgoblins, one led by an Oni.
The [Ruins] are below (and within) the [(Formerly) Abandoned Keep], where some Bandits camp out (and make deals with the goblins).
The [(Formerly) Abandoned Keep] is within the [Winding Valley], prowled by Owlbears, Slimes, regular Bears, and Merchants.

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>>51966063
Okay, I did an analysis of this using "better/worse of 2 damage rolls" rather than "+/-1 damage". The results don't vary by as much based on dice size, and the added damage to d8s shifts the method towards being more viable with bigger pluses to damage from strength or weapon enhancement. The downside is that a flat d8, in particular (with no strength or enhancement bonuses), gets squeezed a bit in terms of effectiveness when you're increasing damage and decreasing to-hit. You're only coming out better off if you have to roll a 17 or higher in order to hit. It's not as bad is it looks though, because you're doing 95% as much damage per round with a to-hit of 15, and 91% as much with a to-hit of 14. These fall in the range of being close enough to the same that they're basically interchangeable (to give you an idea, a d6 inflicts 78% as much damage as a d8).

WTF IS ALL THIS!!? In case you just tuned in, I'm looking at what numbers are a good trade-off for a relatively power-neutral "power attack" or [whatever the opposite of a power attack is]. In other words, taking a penalty to your chance to hit in order to do extra damage, or taking a penalty to your damage in order to improve your chance to hit. The idea is that you could freely perform these attacks without needing something like a feat.

Remember: orange indicates that you're doing less damage per round than with a standard roll, and blue indicates that you're doing more.

Conclusions: For a low to mid-level campaign without too many bonuses from strength or magic weapons (maybe a combined +3 at the upper end), you're probably better off going with 1 damage is equivalent to 2 to-hit. There will, however, be some discrepancies in effectiveness between weapons (since +/- 1 damage is a much bigger deal if your average damage is 2.5 instead of 4.5), but the main thing is to get d8 damage weapons right, with d6 weapons not too far behind.

[cont]

>>51975027 [cont]
For a higher-level campaign, or one where bonuses from strength and magic weapons are more common, you're probably better off going with: better/worse of 2 damage rolls is equivalent to 2 points of to-hit.

Sup i want to create an OSR game, and i am thinking in using a dice pool resolution , any ideas?

like a twist for xd6 > TN or
xd6 count success

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>>51974936
I've got something like that planned. The full layers are.

+++[Sunlight]+++
[Great Bog], which must be traversed to reach the
[Loathsome Hills], in which the PCs find the
[Ruined Wood Fort], in which dwells the
[Owlbear], who, during the fight, accidentally reveals the entrance to the
[False Tomb of the Fake Snake Men], containing traps, skeletons, and the entrance to the
[True Tomb of the Fake Snake Men], which leads to the
[Cave Network], containing goblins and assorted debris, but also a path to the
[Catacombs of the True Snake Men], which leads to the
[Palace-Prison of the Albino Immortal Workers], which must be traversed to descend to the
[False Temple of the Fake Snake Men], built to conceal the location of the
[True Temple of the Fake Snake Men], which, in turn, was built above the ruins of the
[True Temple of the True Snake Men], where they worshipped the
[Big Snake at the Core of the World]


I guess my question is... what do I /put/ in all these locations?

Are there any good modules that are about exploring naturalistic systems like this? Not Tomb of Horrors "we built this to fuck with you". Not "Raid the lair of the Sorceror King and His Ork Friends"?

Just "Here's a big fucking heap of old tombs and catacombs and caves. Go explore."

>>51975377
I mean, you can just loot elements of modules left and right. Anything in the trove with "tomb of" in the title is fair game for stealing ideas or rooms wholesale from.

>>51975377

This seems like a good way to either A lose your players, or B force yourself to write a megadungeon.

Maybe you could make each one of those sections a 5 room dungeons but by tying them together essentially make them a big dungeon?

Nobody would happen to have that hexmap of Africa would they? I remember it was posted fairly recently but don't remember exactly how many threads ago. Thanks in advance.

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>>51975575
I'm aware, and I've been doing that, but there are a /ton/ of modules out there.

Tomb of is not guarantee. Tomb of the Lizard King, for instance. Great module. Not useful here.

Maybe Out of the Abyss, reversed?

>>51975204
I like exploding d8!s, and 2d8!k1, etc.

An exploding d8 has almost the same probability curve as 3d6.

I'm trying to start making a hex map for a game using a homebrew osr where you play as mercenaries working on a continent full of fantasy stuff which inexplicably just appeared. I can't decide how large of a map to start with. The hex scale I want to use is 6 miles from side to side of the hex. How big is big enough? 20x20? thats like four days travel on foot, unencumbered. 30x30? Bigger? Smaller?

>>51975942
50x30 is the "standard size."
It's big enough for dozens of campaigns.

Any smaller than that *should work*, but doesn't.
People will decide to see what's off the edge.

>>51975942

20x20 is a lot of space to explore.

>>51976006

This is a problem if you're not upfront with your players. Tell 'em you've got enough room for them to head out about four days before they hit the edge of the map. Alternately, put easier stuff near the start, and the more dangerous monsters further away; they'll shy away from going into ogre territory until they've managed a few levels.

>>51975377
Try Barrowmaze.

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>>51976254
Perfect!

>>51973868
I've been using this table for the last three sessions starting to get tired of my enemies cutting each other up and shit.

Regarding natural 1s and 20s, how does /osrg/ feel about rolling a 20 doing the highest damage the weapon can possibly do (thus making it a "perfect" hit) and a 1 making the player miss the next round? If you think the fumble is too punishing, how about starting next round at the bottom of initiative?

Can somebody direct me to where I can take a look at the Original Setting that always gets posted on here? It's like a hex map of Gygax's world and a bunch of notes on stuff like how knights act, what clerics are like, and the fact that there are giant lobsters.

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>>51977989
The "miss your next round" thing is extra annoying because turn-based systems are all about "your round". Having that taken away sucks, especially with a large group.

Dropping to last in the initative order works, but it's also fiddly to keep track of.

I like systems where it has a chance of breaking your weapon. Weapons have breakage points equal to half their die size (3 for daggers, 4 for broadswords or whatever).

On a crit fail, you dent your sword. You can repair breakage points in town.

So yeah, your fighter might be a dab hand with his +2 flaming great-axe, but he just shattered it down to 1 point left. He's got a shitty flail and a bucket now. Or he has to loot something decent and hope it's not cursed. Your archer just snapped a bowstring in the middle of the fight.

>>51977989

In my game, I give Fighters (and only Fighters) a bonus non-attack based combat move when they roll a 19 or 20. That's it.

20 is always a hit, but no bonus damage. 1 is a miss, but no bonus damage. I don't like critical strikes or fumbles or anything like that. Naturally these extremely low chance events happen are just added in for flavor and game balance more then anything else. If the players got a hold of a 'always hitting' sword or arrow then a roll of 1 would be the result of human error to keep the setting straight.

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>>51978061
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bx-230B8tqxvMmFrNGJFU3hGNnM

>It's like a hex map of Gygax's world
It's actually the hex map from Outdoor Survival, which Men and Magic recommends for people without a map.
Incidentally, Arneson used it for the region south of Blackmoor.
>and a bunch of notes on stuff like how knights act, what clerics are like, and the fact that there are giant lobsters.
That's commentary on Underworld and Wilderness Adventures.

>>51970406
>That's good because now the big bads are anti-immigration (Mage's Technocracy) and global warming (Werewolf's Wyrm).
And OSR shit has big-tittied bitches in chainmail, what's your fucking point?

>>51970090
>The Alexandrian has solid advice
Some of it is great (the cheat sheets), but his opinion articles are shit. I cringe every time I see some idiot drop one of his "dissociated mechanics" articles.

>>51978381

Because we all need to care about his personal opinions on shit? Best to just ignore him for the attention whore he is.

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Alternate (as in, nonvanican) OSR magic systems?

>>51978536
Magic is solely the purview of Monsters and Treasure.
Hire an Oni or stock up on Scrolls or some shit.

>>51978212
Thanks dude. As you can probably tell I don't know a lot of history of this stuff, I'm kind of just getting into it even if I've liked the themes for a long time.

>>51978536
2e's got a couple of point-based ones knocking about, if that's your jam.

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So last thread somebody recommended making up some rules for my idea of a 'magic item only' based magic system, which includes the MU characters.

Essentially, instead of MUs preparing spells on an either per day or per adventure basis, Magic Users instead use magic rods and other devices to create magical effects. The idea of this system is to make magic a bit more in the general adventurer's toolkit; anyone can fight but fighters fight best. Anyone can sneak, but thieves sneak best. Now everyone can do magic, but MUs do it the best.

To create some rules to back this up;
>Every Rod has a semi-limited number of uses
>Magic Users can push the rod to have more powerful effects, as well as conserve charges
>Similar to swords and other weapons, rods are 'permanent' but not 'permanent' additions to characters

My current ideas include either a hard charge based system or a more lenient one where rods can function essentially indefinitely but will lose their charge if spiritually draining things happen to them. In the same way a Rust Monster might destroy a fighter's sword an angry ghost might touch and taint the magic users magic rod!

The other mechanics are, of course, pretty easy to come up with. Some examples;
>Rod of Flames
>Ignites targets and makes them take 1d4 damage each round (including the first round if ignited)
>No effect on things that can't be ignited, or that fire wouldn't damage
>Charms; Boil water, dry clothes, light a candle, etc.

This rod as you can see deals more damage then others if it can ignite, but is more sharply limited on what it can harm.

>Flight Wand
>Attack fires out spectral hawks, butterflies, arrows, or other related phantasms that deal 1d4 damage, ignoring all defenses
>Charms; Levitate something small (magehand), create a small gust of wind, restore or grant flight to a creature that can fit in the palm of your hand

This one is more like a traditional magic missile attack, plus has some fun utility.

>>51979149
I like 5e and how it does charges (rolled per day). And they have flavourful text too, like needing suns rays and such. Might be too complicated to give every rod a little thing needed to give charges, but food for thought.

>>51973945
But friend, you can run Dark Souls.
I'm currently running Sen's Fortress, only stocked btb, and starting from the top (because my players know the place inside out). The giants and NPC locations stay, everything else is your regular B/X dungeon.

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>>51979369

I like that concept. Letting them refill over time, or perhaps have a combination of refill over time/special fuel to recharge them. The reason I wanted to step away from a purely charge based system is I kind of wanted my MUs to get at least partially attached to their magical tools in the same way that Fighters could get attached to their weapons.

As for the uses; would one of the more fluffy new age ways work? Something a bit like the usage die, or even better the 'event' based usage. Like 'if you use it once in a combat round, then you're being conservative. If you use it twice, then you might as well keep firing because it will be out of charge at the end of combat.' That way it could encourage careful use of combat moves instead of just spam, but if you do decide to spam you really get to let loose!

A similar idea could be used for out of combat magic too. Like boiling a pot of water or lighting a candle is fine, but if you boil two pots of water then you might as well heat the whole kitchen because it will run out of charge doing that either way. Not sure if the same idea would work for noncombat conservation of magic though, but I like the idea.

>>51978536
Wizards can't use magic. Instead, they negotiate with a supernatural entity (or several), sign a contract and let them do it.
>fireball_hurling_demonic_retainer.jpg
Add as many quirks as you want, give them personality, define what happens when the MU dies in a case by case, make them ask for payment in whatever weird and gonzo shit you come up including annoying sidequests.

Yes, this can fall a bit on the story-games side of things, but you get the idea.

>>51979773

I hate this. Please never do this again.

Cucking MUs out of their own magical destinies is really lame. Even if the mechanics were exactly the same, it would be better in a game where the MU got his own power and didn't 'bargain' or 'negotiate' for it. This divorces magic from the player character too much, all of whom should be innately magical- or rather everything in the world should be innately magical because the 3.PF style of 'everything is bog standard physical normal mundane reality except for magic' is fucking lame.

>>51979789
I get what you mean, but:
-The MU is innately magical, only a MU can do this shit.
-You have to 'bargain', but once it's yours, it's yours for good (until you fuck up). I said nothing about having to go for low-level spells first, I only mentioned imposing conditions.
-The MU keeps his own "magical destiny" (?)
(that is, either death by the sword or lichdom, right?)
-I'd love to see a desperate PC stuck in a barricaded dungeon room, haggling with Death herself for a single use of Finger of death.

Just for the record, I play B/X strictly btb.

quick question. i dont understand how xp works in LOTFP. It says that only certain type of loot counts towards XP. Ok. But what then ? you recover lets say 2000 silver pieces as loot. That means 2000 xp points for the party at the end. Do they spend those silver pieces ? do they keep it and use it and still get the XP ? i dont understand.

>>51980025
Use B/X. It's simpler, more focused, and you don't have to ask this sort of things. Lotfp is just a house-ruled clone of it, anyways.
Plus B/X comes with monsters, magic items, and a dungeon generation method - in 64 pages.

>>51979149
>The idea of this system is to make magic a bit more in the general adventurer's toolkit; anyone can fight but fighters fight best. Anyone can sneak, but thieves sneak best. Now everyone can do magic, but MUs do it the best.

So, basically you just want to turn OSR into 3.5? Gotcha.

>>51980025
you keep it and use it and still get the xp. So long as you return the recovered loot to a safe place you've "cashed your chips in" so to speak. No matter what happens with the money, the xp stays.
eg. you could get it back to town, earn your 2000xp and then get mugged. You'd lose the 2000sp but keep the xp.

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>>51980082

>>51973616
What, does the sword bend around and sever the hand that wields it?

>>51973844
>what is carrying capacity for mad loot
>what is weight of force
>what is diversifying skills and tasks
>what is redshirts
>what is charmed super-hero henchman with magical arms

>>51973946
You're thinking of hirelings. Henchmen get levels and exp. And when you die, easily suitable for being replacement characters. If you want to trivially exploit your underlings, have fun getting shanked and/or abandoned by them at the worst possible moment. :^)

>>51979773
I'm considering writing a magic system based on something like this, though I was worrying about what it would do to the metaphysics of the game world. Essentially you'd have a summoning skill, and you'd use it to summon a sprit. How strong the spirit is affects what they can do. Higher level spirits impose a penalty. I was thinking of just having a few broad categories of spell effects though, and letting the referee decide if a certain level spirit is powerful enough. So you'd have categories like harm (direct damage)
hinder (sleep, entanglement)
control (charm, possible also fabrication and such)
aid (all the buffs)
restoration (healing, curing disease)

Any thoughts on that?

>>51977989
I just have nat 20s do max damage for their attack. Lots of critters like purple worms already do fancy attacks like swallow whole, or the giant crocodile's "snatch and sever" thing when they do.

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>>51978061
This one?

>>51980478
I only wrote that >>51979773 as a random idea, but I'm interested in what you come up with.
I wasn't talking about only summoning, more like contacting superior forces that could grant you powers.

Oh and if you want it functional, keep it narrative. Don't mess with bonuses and penalties because a 'and if you fuck up, I'll smite you' works a lot better and it's easier to manage, imo. Keep it simple like: gain one Power - under one Condition - else suffer Consecuence.

>>51980561
I haven't hashed out how I want to handle consequences for failure, but my initial thought was something like a failed roll gave the spirit a chance to fuck with you, and depending on how strong of a spirit you summoned the worse things they'd do. Not necessarily straight up harm you stuff, but maybe rotting all your rations or destroying the partys boots or things like that. More narrative focused penalties that generate interesting results, like looting shitty boots from the orcs so you don't have to go barefoot.

>>51978061
>>51978212
>>51980478
Is this like, theory, right? Did anybody try playing this, or something based on this?

>>51980574
Roll? What roll? No need for that, imo.
If you want it swingy, ok. I can see cold-calling superforces as risky, but beyond that it should be 100% realiable (as in, relying in player skill).

Instead of a roll for summoning, I'd ask the players for a safe setup: spending gold in candles, pentagrams, magick chalk, expensive books, contention circles, etc. Esoteric entities will require a certain sacrifice, etc.
But no need to roll.

Paladins already do this, but they call it an oath, and it can be just because; and a one time thing usually. If they fuck up the power vanishes without more consequence. Booooring.

>>51978536
Not really an answer, but I always thought Dark Heresy's magic yes I know it's technically psychic shit but if it barks like a dog... system was pretty interesting. Anything like that for OSR?

>>51980626
>spending gold in candles, pentagrams, magick chalk, expensive books, contention circles, etc. Esoteric entities will require a certain sacrifice, etc.

I do that anyway. In the same way I ask a player to describe how they're attacking, or how they're looking for traps.

Just spitballing ideas here, but as a way to include resource management the magic user could have X number of spells per day as per standard vancian magic and when those run out resort to bargaining. Put in reaction rolls from demons, elemental, otherworldly messed up shit (I'm thinking like Elric) that can be modified by rituals, components, etc. The result of the roll being a scale of how strange and messed up the requirements are to get the spell. Have the proper offerings and bargin well, the underworld spirit you contacted only takes a year of your life. Do poorly and it needs you to sacrifice your hireling.

This way its a thing they can do in situations of dire need, have consequences, are linked to existing mechanics and require extrapolation from dice rolls.

>>51981347
If you just want to allow casters beyond their daily quota, the easiest way is rolling each time. Either a save, or d20+caster level vs 10+spell level.
If you fail, take damage equal to spell level, squared.

But if you are already putting some arbitrary requirements (usually costly in terms of gold / PC time / player time) why even bother rolling?

Let me guess, you don't play B/X. You play lotfp or equally shitty clone.

I can't help but wonder if all the people snowballing in this threads about rolls under or over, chances and shit even play. Not B/X, that's for sure.

>>51979773
I like the concept. People often forget that the other side of Vancian magic as it is in the novels is summoning sandestins and having them do all the work for you -- I've always wanted to be able to implement something similar for sufficiently powerful wizards. Like maybe you stop gaining spells at level 11, but higher-level spells can be cast by servants, so you make magic items to entrap these servants, like efreeti bottles and djinni rings, and you head out with your fellow party members to find and catch them.

>>51981241
There are many variations of psychic shit for old D&D and OSR games, yes. I don't know anything about Dark Heresy, though, so I don't know if they're similar.

>>51975790
>An exploding d8 has almost the same probability curve as 3d6.
Umm, nope. Nope nope nope.

From last thread:

New DM here. What to do about the 'gotcha' moments in old (and lotfp) modules?

>If you reach this point, you are hopelessly lost.
>There is a trap here, but the party will not notice. Full stop.
>This thing here jumps at you unless you have been explicitly searching while naked, with a 10' pole up your ass.

>>51981465
Wrong guess. You seem mad.

Reaction rolls are more about negotiating with otherworldy forces. Modifiers from specific actions aren't required, just things you can do.

Saves vs damage and caster level things would be if the magic was being drawn from their life force, etc. Its a different vibe but could work too.

>>51981607
Keep them in.

>>51975790
>An exploding d8 has almost the same probability curve as 3d6.
You just failed every math test in history, forever.

>>51981630
Yep, a bit, but not about you specifically. Sorry for that.

I can understand reaction rolls when you're rushing a summon, cold-calling. Apply modifiers depending of the situation too.
But I think a big part of the game is working hard towards a point where no roll is needed. If the players work -really- hard, they should have it, full stop. No point in asking for lots of complications, sweat and gold, and then gambling everything in a 2d6 roll, even if it's just a minimal chance.

If you're going to make a caster depend on this summons to even -have spells-, the resolution of this summons should be reliable, or at least the player should be informed of the chances beforehand.
Reaction rolls when the caster fucks up? Of course!

>>51981864
Its chill. Sorry if it seems vague, I'm caffeinated and winging it.

I agree with trying to move away from rolling as much as possible. This was more an idea to include as a last ditch plan. Once all the spells for the day were used. I'd probably have it work under all circumstances and the roll modify how messed up the requirement from the entities was.

Mechanically I'd go with reaction rolls modified by how much resources the caster could put into bribing/placating. Basically like approaching with gold or surface world food to influence a reaction roll with humanoids.

I'm a bit worried about having it be too available though, and wouldn't want to add another layer of X times per day. That seems dumb. But also figuring out how to make it dangerous but not so much that no one bothers seems tricky.

Also depends on what's up with magic in your game. If you're going for internal innate magicalness it doesn't really make sense to negotiate much. If they're drawing power from other places for all magic (which I tend to go for, riffing on the Elric saga stuff) it makes more sense.

>>51981607
What module are you going to run? What sort of players do you have? What sort of game do you want?

As a generalization, either run them straight and explain to everyone beforehand that you're playing a high fatality murdergore game, or take the parts you like and make the automatic deathtraps different or take them out.

You can run modules as written, but its perfectly fine to modify them to suit.

>>51981864
Not the other guy, but I think the way LBB OD&D does Charm spells is pretty much perfect. The target gets a save, and if it fails, becomes a retainer under the typical rules, with a secret Loyalty score and everything. In this one specific case (and pretty much never otherwise, but never mind) of summoning aid, I think it would be very reasonable to allow the PC to increase the difficuly of the save through various means such as magic circles, sacrifices etcetera, but I'd still want the loyalty score or equivalent there -- to me it seems like there's no point in using a summon/ally based system if it's just going to work out to Vancian in the end anyway. Using the summoned creature's reliability in place of spell slots (having you roll a morale equivalent each time a spellcasting is required, for instance) as a limiter on casting makes sense and seems fair, to me.

>>51982086
I was thinking in the moathouse from ToEE, until I read about the 'traps' there.
My players are 3-4 teenage girls with equal love for playing Shakira mashups during the game, and getting +Strength to kick down doors. They are used to oldschool lethality (they haven't seen greener pastures yet), but they are also used to fairness.
Old modules (and lotfp*) aren't fair, at all. Squeezing the PCs real hard is one thing, 'bam! you die!' is another.

*at leats Gygax worked his ass into making gotcha moments logic and plausible. Lotfp gotchas are just random BS.

>>51982087
Yeah, I suggested that system as a non-vancian alternative for another anon.
The Charm sounds good, but it may be cumbersome to keep track of, and D&D already has way too much bookeeping. I can see that system working only if you can only have one 'patron' to borrow spells from, and a few summoned-retainers that have all the same loyalty as the patron.

>>51982261
>Lotfp gotchas are just random BS.
Get rid of them, then.

I don't want to be snarky, but I don't really get what the problem is for you. You see some shit you don't like, you realize that it'll go down like a lead balloon with your group, so you... hesitate in getting rid of those things, or altogether running another module (or God forbid, building your own dungeon)? I guess I don't get what's holding you back at all.

>>51982347
True, but at least in ToEE those gotchas are interesting traps, placed in interesting places.
I'm not asking how to get rid of them, I want to know how to make them fair without making them obvious.

>>51982435
Modifying traps is pretty specific to the traps. What traps in the moathouse are you worried about? What seems unfair? What loftp module were you looking at and what seemed unfair in that? Not disagreeing with you, there's some unfair stuff in a bunch of them, but that's what they're going for. Its more playing in a horror movie than playing in a swords&sorcery novel.

I messed with Tower Of The Stargazer, mostly by taking out the gameghost because I thought it was boring. I added a weird fungus monster that switches places with whoever uses the teleport/telescope and if the rest of the party defeats it before the player dies on the moon it returns them. It added a big fight and made it seem less like just punishing people for experimenting with stuff. Kept the cerebral parasite though. Made everyone more careful picking through corpses after that. ymmv.

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>>51980626
>Is this like, theory, right?
That's preeeety much~ by-the-book.

>>51980079

It's the same XP rules between them, dude. I get that you like B/X and don't like LotFP, but you're not actually helping that guy..

>>51982594
These 3, mostly:

- A couple of green slimes placed over a staircase. They fall over the PCs on a 75% chance, but other than that, more or less unavoidable.
- Luring to an insta-death without warning:
>After about 30 feet of travel, the trail of gold ends. If the characters follow the tunnels off the mapped portion, allow them to proceed another hundred feet, and then tell them they are hopelessly lost.
- This:
>26. UNDETECTED TRAP
>The party will not notice that a huge iron grate could fall from above at this point in the corridor.

The thing is, that undetected grate is very convenient (for the DM), and I'm pretty sure Pcs won't go in if they detect that - fine by me, they're missing out, but still...

>>51982889
I'd just describe the archway with the green slimes very specifically. Note its detailed and curved recesses, something like that. They can poke around in it with a 10ft pole, stand back and hold a torch up to see, stuff like that. If you really want you could change how the green slime mutation works so they have a chance to do something about it. Maybe cut off the limb that's turning.

Being hopelessly lost sounds like a good excuse to include a twisted side dungeon cavern. Make it regular lost. I'd have caverns with monsters and a hag of some sort that will lead them through the cavern in exchange for something neat like an eye, or some loot from the evil cleric.

The gate winch for the gate is accessible. Its secret but if you're worried about it have one of the guards have a key or a note or a map to the secret door. Or just the winch handle which implies there's a hidden winch somewhere.

Basically including ways for the players to unfuck themselves makes it more fair. Keeps the danger but adds more for them to do.

>>51983154
Alternatively/additionally you can just make sure you describe everything a lot, encourage them to look for suspicious things and be careful around doors. Depends on what kind of game you want.

Green slime archway is a giant archway in a shitty place. They should be careful there.

Twisting caverns aren't a thing you explore unless you came prepared for it. See if they mark places with chalk, leave a string to follow, that sort of thing.

If they check the trigger door for the gate, they can notice its a fake door and leave it alone. If they notice the gate when they're passing under it they can wedge things under the gate so it doesn't close completely, etc.

It puts a lot on you as gm, but the main thing to do there is give them descriptions and ideas to work with, and warn them ahead of time its a game with traps so they have to think and be careful.

Personally I tend to do a bit of both. Keep the slimes as is but describe the mutation into a slime as taking over limbs first and see what they do.

>>51969598
Against the Wicked City, mostly for highlighting a whole series of central asian cultures and geographies which don't get much press, and making them into really gameable content.

False Machine's recent series on AntiCamelot has given me a lot of ideas too

>>51975377
I have a good idea for the last one on that list

>>51983154
>If you really want you could change how the green slime mutation works so they have a chance to do something about it.
Don't they already have this option? Is there any edition in which green slime *can't* be burned off?

>>51974024
I mean henchmen or not is a matter of style and preference, you doofus.

Is there any OSR blog or historical resource that explains how europe looked and felt after the Roman Empire's fall?
I've read once that Rome itself was only 10% inhabited at the time.
I'm just curious at how that happens.

>>51980626
>>51981347
Original spitballer here, I was thinking that the "magic roll" (for lack of a better term) would be something like the attack roll for a fighter. In a combat situation, trying to cast sleep or fireball or whatever, you'd esentially be cold calling cosmic forces and asking for a solid. If it fails, they don't pick up the phone, and if you really screw up they get pissed. If you're doing an out of combat thing and have the time for a proper ritual you can break out the candles and inscence and pentacles and whatever and bargain for stronger effects.

Is Chthonic Codex in the trove? Wanna check it out before I purchase it.

>>51983874
You're totally right. I was just going off the smaller slime blob in T1.

>>51980532
Yeah, that's the one I was after. As >>51978212
this poster said I got some details wrong. Thanks for posting it my man.

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>>51981241
I've just started reading this, see if the magic system is to your liking. I'm getting a real kick out of it so far.

>>51983990
Less interested in that. Magic users already have limited options so gimping them by making it less likely the spell happens at all seems unnecessary/making magic annoying enough no one would do it. Not my bag.

Some people like stuff like that though. I'm under the impression DCC's magic system is like this. Haven't read it.

>>51984438
Upthread you were talking about leaving succes up to player preperation and investment, but I'm not clear how you were going to handle the actual spellcasting. How would you handle that? Roleplay summoning demons and bargaining for favours with them and then call them in later? How is that any different than regular vanician casting?

>>51984438
Also, just for clarifications sake, I wasn't thinking you have a limited number of spell slots per day. You can attempt to cast/summon any number of times per day. That's why there's a roll. Sometimes things just aren't around to do you a favor.

>>51983906
Don't have any good resources for you, but
>that explains how europe looked and felt after the Roman Empire's fall?
most of the people in-charge of regions continued to control their regions. But they became their own boss, essentially.
The main issue, and the reason most of their technology (concrete, etc.) "vanished", was that the trade networks collapsed.

>>51984521
I think I'm a different guy. I'd leave the succeeds up to vancian casting. As in it succeeds. I'm more interested in negotiation via reaction rolls with demons and such for more spells than normal once those run out.

>>51984604
Oh, I got you. I think you're right, and we're trying to solve two different problems.

>>51984565
Yeah I get that. The amount of spells per day already seems restrictive enough to me so I'd keep those and add rules for dubious and dangerous dealings when they run out to represent things not always being on call or the call being more than they bargained for.

Game wise I'm less interested in having a thing not happen, spell casters only do a few things a day anyway. More interested in making the thing happen but complicated. I blame playing apocalypse world

>>51983906
>>51984566
It isn't OSR, but maybe consider picking this up: https://www.amazon.com/Britain-After-Rome-Fall-Rise/dp/014014823X

I'm a grad student in history and we had to read this for a class, and I thought it had some neat stuff in it. My area is late medieval to early-modern Germany, so it's outside my expertise, but my impression of it is that it's accurate, uses sources well, and is evocative enough to help paint a picture.

Another one you could look at is this beauty: https://www.amazon.com/Fall-Rome-End-Civilization/dp/0192807285
which tries to fight the historical revisionism we see a lot, and it says that in fact, the fall of Rome was really bad. IIRC it also paints a good picture.

If reading these history books sounds too boring or dry for you, you can always check to see if there's a GURPS book out there on the subject. There appears to be one for most things.

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Speaking of alternate magical setups, somebody posted this homebrew of theirs way back when in an /osrg/. I thought it was neat.

I think I'm starting to like the 5e saving throw system...
H-help! Explain why it's not good!

>>51985258
Haven't even looked at it. How does it work?

Does anybody have a tl;dr about how chainmail battle rules work?

>>51985302
You have 6 saves
Attributes = Saves

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>>51985323
Replace "kills" with "hits"
All weapons deal 1d6 damage

>>51985550
Awesome, thanks my man. I've been coming up with homebrew ideas and people have been telling me they seem like old grog stuff, so I've been investigating ancient roleplaying.

Stuff like making armor ablative HP and having all the weapons doing similar (though not exactly the same) damage has led to people comparing my game to stuff I don't really know the details on like Chainmail and some shit called Blackmoor.

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>>51985684
Blackmoor is the most arcane of OD&D's supplements.
Which is saying something. Content for OD&D is freakishly obfuscate.

>>51985782
Wow, you've got it all. Thanks for posting this stuff-- I appreciate it.

>>51985835
>you've got it all

c >>51969598
>a vast Trove of treasure!

>>51985929
I actually looked there first, but I was too much of a retard to navigate the file structure. Naturally, now that you've posted it I'm literally looking at what I was after.

>>51985258

It makes the common mistake of representing saves not by what causes them (and sorting due to the danger they represent to the PCs) but by the method the PC uses to escape. This hamstrings roleplaying by making you describe your save using the given attribute rather than any other potentially more interesting means, and this shift also means that now you have to add an extra layer of modifers on to represent saves that will kill you on a miss, saves that will cripple you, and saves that will just annoy you, whereas old-school saves have that built-in, making them nice and simple.
Also a focus on attributes over class and level, which is an ugly design choice IMO, pushing you to have attributes that go up over time, with all the clunkiness that entails in a system that was not initially designed for players to go outside the 3-18 range.

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are there any osr games that have familiars? what are they like in that system?

>>51980626
>>51982660
Is there something like this for B/X? I can't seem to find a decent writeup about the implied setting there.

>>51986303
Mystara/The Known World

>>51986259
DCC, if you count that as OSR. I imagine it's like 3e, but I've never played that. You roll for what kind of familiar it is, what power it has, and such.

>>51986538
Ok, I'm stupid. Btw, is it worth reading? What's the best way, the Gazetteers?
>Trenton Webb for the British Arcane RPG magazine described Mystara as "a traditional Tolkienesque world"
That sounds a bit meh but also something I could live with.

>>51986259
This makes me wonder, when did Familiars become mainstream? They aren't really part of LotR where most of early D&D took inspiration. I feel like their first appearance in Dungeons and Dragons was an AD&D 2 splat.

>>51986907
>a traditional Tolkienesque world
A Nuclear Scientist is one of the gods

>>51986931
>LotR where most of early D&D took inspiration
What did he mean by this?

>>51987045
SOLD.
thanks!

>>51987056
Early Dungeons and Dragons editions were influenced by (or stole or whatever) a lot of their content from Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit (hobbits, balor and ents where in the game and renamed later revisions). Lord of the Rinds aren't special in this way though, many other fantasy works of the time also played their part, like Jack Vance's Dying Earth. Gary says just as much here

http://archives.theonering.net/features/interviews/gary_gygax.html

>>51987056
He means he hasn't read Appendix N.
And probably hasn't read the DMG.

>>51987249
Some creatures don't really count as "most of"

>>51987249
>There are still one or two of my DIPLOMACY Game variants from the 1960s somewhere online, BTW.
Anyone got a link?

>>51987467
They've already been auctioned off, sadly.

B/X grogs, do you use the skill mechanics published in Gazetteers?

>If you have a skill that applies to this task, and the DM allows, roll d20 under the relevant ability score.
>You can improve or learn new skills as you gain levels (each 4 levels, I think).

Why?

>>51985258
As >>51986177 says, their main flaw is that they place too much emphasis on attributes, a thing that should never be done. Stat inflation derives directly from stat importance, which leads players to whine about or even outright reject sub-par stats, which in turn leads weak referees to use alternate stat generation methods, thus merely cementing the validity of stat importance and the assumption of a certain level of stats on the part of the PCs, causing modules to challenge that level instead, and so on in a loop.

TL;DR any kind of increased mechanical importance granted to stats leads inexorably to a treadmill of shit.

>>51985684
>>51985782
>Blackmoor is the most arcane of OD&D's supplements.
Actually in the case of ablative-HP armor, people were probably comparing Anon's homebrew to the actual Blackmoor *campaign*, that is, Dave Arneson's original game that spawned D&D. In the Blackmoor *book* there's only one reference to ablative armor, in the description of Stephen of the Rock, lord of the Temple of the Frog. There are no rules or anything like that.

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kinksandcrits com is the shit, though.

>>51986907
>Radioactive magic
>Anyone, and I mean anyone, can become a "god" (Immortal)
>Bargle, the greatest stock villain in D&D history
>Dragons based on gems
>Best dark elves in D&D
>Mystara also is hollow and has continents and shit inside of it facing the star at its core
>ALPHATIA IS ATLANTIS
>Red Steel setting is epic
>Not!Arabs right next to not!Vikings and not!Rome.

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>>51983476
I can only assume LotFP doesn't know what mappers are, or the designer was just being a blatant cunt. 100 feet and hopelessly lost? Give me a break.

>>51986538
>>51988852
Tell me more, anons.

>>51989070
>I can only assume LotFP doesn't know what mappers are, or the designer was just being a blatant cunt.
LOTFP does explicitly tell players to map. Designer is definitely just being a cunt.

>>51988662
Reasonable comment, but that doesn't make your quoted text wrong.
Blackmoor is the least professional and most obsufacte of the supplements for OD&D.

Last thread somebody mentioned something about Magic Users basically making a spell and then, once cast, it was just like 'gone' forever? Or that spells came in orbs?

What's up with that?

>>51989175
c >>51988662

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>>51989111
Classy. Sometimes I really wonder what people are thinking when they put that crap in products. (Also what the hell people are doing buying those products.)

Is it better to restrict spells based on daily limits or on materials/time?

>>51989508
Time leads to more interesting decisions, daily limit is easier to manage.
Either way, most spells have components that are difficult (or tedious) to acquire in bulk.

>>51989140
Agreed. I really just quoted that part because it was the most convenient for what I was going to say.

>>51989070
>100 feet and hopelessly lost? Give me a break.

What module is this?

>>51979722
Again in 5e some spells use more charges, so lets say rod of fire. Firebolt is one charge while fireball might be three. And some have a 1 in x chance of being destroyed if they go to zero charges.
Your ideas could very well work but ultimately playtesting is needed.

>>51986931
AD&D Players Handbook, 1978

>>51989111
>>51989070
>>51989743
Talking about T1, Village of Hommet. I get you don't like LotFP but calm down man. Its actually fucking up your reading comprehension.

>>51989070
>100 feet and hopelessly lost? Give me a break.
>We have no sense of orientation and therefore assume this is human average

>>51990342

Okay, I was confused about what module this was about because I THOUGHT you were talking about an old TSR module and then he starts blaming Raggi. What a silly person.

>>51975204
Look at the free Werewolf: The Apocalypse quickstart

What are some "must have" modules to include in a traditional fantasy hexcrawl? If they have non-traditional fantasy aspects (LotFP) that's just as fine.

So I want to add around 8 new classes in ACKs to fit my setting, with two being racial types. How easy or hard of a task is this?

Kinda fun, actually.

>>51991144
If you /really/ can't be assed to fill out your own hex map,
>B1, B2, B4, DA2, N2, S1, S2, S3, S4, X1

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https://youtu.be/o0u4M6vppCI

>>51991435
Extremely easy.

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>>51991537

>implying plopping down classic modules onto your hexmap isn't both a handy timesaver and awesome to boot

>>51991537
You forgot G1!

>>51991588
>135KB
Literally just post the binary file.

>>51991435
Easy, just use the players companion guidelines

>>51991588
i fucking loved that game

Anyone got an opinion on The Lapis Observatory?
Thinking I'll grab the PDF.

>>51991616
>>51991571
Alright cool. How easy is it to create new spells that don't exactly fit in the creation template of the companion book, though? I'm planning on making my own druid subclasses and want each of them to have spells that match their element.

>>51991667
Filch (ideas, whole stat blocks, whatever) from the billions in the AD&D Priest's and Wizard's Spell Compendiums.

>>51991693
Can I access it online somehow? I'm on phone and at the end of my storage space so I can't download it. My laptop keyboard's screwy.

>>51990342
Blow me, mate. Where did I say I didn't like it, I said I wasn't familiar with it, for starters. So where's your reading comprehension eh?

>>51989175
>>51989286

By 'once cast' it's just 'gone forever' seems like an interesting way to do it, but these would more be in line with ritual spells or something. Unless it means you can use the spell multiple times you just need to research the same spell a bunch of times?

Or if, once researched and used, the spell cannot be used at ALL again, like not even conceptually, and not with the same reagents.

Like how would you justify that to the players? If you gather the dust from an ancient cave, the chisel of a master mason and the hourglass of god and use it to repair the crumbled bridge; you obviously couldn't just reuse the same ingredients to repair another bridge later.

It'd be hard to implement a story-based spellcasting system in OSR like this.

>>51991795
>Like how would you justify that to the players?
You take a whole bunch of measurements, pick some point in the future, do a few "mundane" divinations, do a whole bunch of calculations, wait until the appointed time (where everything is aligned as intended), then "tie down" some magic.

>>51980626
This is what you want http://www.grey-elf.com/philotomy.pdf

If an adventure says a monster moves at 30' per round, does that mean it moves 3000' per turn?(LotFP)

I'm trying to figure out how to handle The God That Crawls the Hard Way, and considering just moving it at the end of every turn unless it's within a certain range of the players, but by the math given in the book, it'd move at ridiculous speeds.

>>51991795
>By 'once cast' it's just 'gone forever' seems like an interesting way to do it, but these would more be in line with ritual spells or something. Unless it means you can use the spell multiple times you just need to research the same spell a bunch of times?
I believe the way it worked in the Blackmoor game was once you'd researched a spell, you could make as many of them as you wanted -- time and funds permitting. That's what the FFC seems to imply, anyway. I have to admit that I'm out on choppy water here, though, because as far as I know there are still no good, clear descriptions of Arneson's original magic system.

>>51992021
No, usually the move per round in combat is the same as the move per turn (or, in the case of OD&D, the distance per "move" action, of which there are two in each turn) in exploration. Probably that's what Raggi intends as well, although fuck me if it's easy to put yourself in his mindset.

Hello there, /osr/ friends. I heard from a "reliable source" that there are some good OSR cyberpunk games.

I've been reading through Shadowrun, and I really enjoy the system and fluff, but I think it might be to heavy of an investment for me, so I'd like something lighter. Any suggestions?

>Comfortable level of crunch
Right around the general OSR level. So more than Microlite but less than 5e

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>>51992522
This is a World of Dungeons hack that is the closest thing I've found to a decent OSR cyberpunk game.

>>51992021
I'm not sure about LotFP, but assuming it's the same as B/X (since, you know, it's based on it and all), see >>51987968

>>51992522
Long ago (relatively speaking) there was a guy in /osrg/ making a cyberpunk game, and it had a really cool graphic look IMO. He got discouraged and quit really early on, though. Shame.

>>51992583

I love magic systems like the one in there, but I find them impossible to really use in play without arguments and bullshit happening in game. What a shame.

>>51992685
Eh, people who come to brag about a product in the making are usually fishing for compliments in a roundabout way and only wind up making it if peer pressured to.

In other words, he was probably never going to finish it.

>>51992021
The Lotfp book has a table of movement speeds, in the 'movement and encumbrance' section.
A creature's exploration speed (per turn) is three times it's combat movement speed (per round).

>>51992761
That is actually the most logical explanation for it.
I dunno why I didn't think to look at the movement speed table. Thanks.

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>>51992725
>>51992685

That was me actually. I was gonna call it low_life.

I dropped it because it began to feel a touch daunting. I also felt a bit out of my element. When I shared the samples, half my ideas were written off as being 'not OSR' and all that. Oh well.

So I made 'Ruinations' instead, however I wanted, since post-apocalyptic settings have always been my first love.

>>51992846
>half my ideas were written off as being 'not OSR'

>Falling for the 'not OSR' trolls and shitposters who are jealous of your ideas

For shame.

>>51992846
>That was me actually. I was gonna call it low_life.
Finish it, anus pope!

>>51990240
What are they like/how do you get one in AD&D?

>>51992949
You cast the spell Find Familiar and you get, like, a cat. Then the cat dies and you lose a point of Constitution.

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>>51992876
>>51992920

Haha. Maybe once I fully accomplish what I wanna do with Ruinations and iron out all the kinks and finally have a finished version, I'll make it my next labor of love. Late 80s/Early 90s aesthetic cyberpunk has always held a special place in my heart.

>>51992962
>and you get, like, a cat.
Thought you diced an icosahedron and checked a chart in the spell write-up?

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>>51992995
A pixellated version of this was what I was going to use for the cover, iirc.

>>51992996
Yes. And the chart says CAT.

Actually my point wasn't that you were guaranteed a cat but that all the familiars in that table IIRC are mundane animals and also kinda shit, especially in terms of survival.

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>>51992846
>That was me actually. I was gonna call it low_life.
I associate "low life" with the Savage Worlds setting, which is... colorful... enough to be memorable. I'm not sure what sort of exposure it's gotten generally speaking though, so for all I know it's obscure enough that it's not an issue.

>>51993024
I like it.

>>51993039
Yer right, I remember seeing that ages ago and loving it (twinkie hominoids? yes.) and forgetting the title. If I ever revamp the idea, it'll need a name change for sure.

>>51993024
You won't be able to use that. The sign in the background, the one in Japanese, says "Gojira". And Touhou is very protective of their IPs.

Does anybody have any material on making custom classes for B/X? I remember seeing in a thread a long time ago that Gygax or Arneson said at one point a player could feasibly play as any class, including a dragon or whatever, and I really want to give that a go. I'll probably end up having to eyeball it but I could've sworn I saw something for Labyrinth Lord that let you make any kind of class you wanted.

On a somewhat related note, how do people feel about maximum level limits as a balancing mechanism for demihumans in OSR games?

>>51993653
>how do people feel about maximum level limits as a balancing mechanism for demihumans in OSR games?
It's weird and mostly exists to explain why demihumans, with their longevity, don't have hoards of high-level demihuman NPCs.
Slower leveling for demihumans works better for balancing (and usually happens in tandem with lower level limits).

What is a fair and an unfair death in OSR?

>>51993766
>fair
Any non-surprise round combat death.
Any obvious trap.
Any routinely detectable non-lethal trap (that finishes somebody off, etc.)

>unfair
Any surprise round death from a significantly stronger enemy.
Any immediately lethal trap which is hard to detect (unless hidden in a way your group habitually searches).


>grey area
Surprise round deaths by similar strength enemies.
Surprise round deaths finishing off weakened characters.
Difficult to detect traps.
Partially cutting off escape routes.

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>>51993653
>On a somewhat related note, how do people feel about maximum level limits as a balancing mechanism for demihumans in OSR games?
They're shitty. They either don't apply at all (before you hit the cap), or they completely shut you down. With that said, if you stop B/X at 14th level, the level caps for elves and dwarves are about right in terms of balance of power (it's only halflings that get screwed). Really though, you should just balance things out by adjusting XP requirements, like this pic here tries to do.

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>>51993766
>fair
>anything the players directly bring on themselves
>anything caused by lack of preparation
>anything blatantly obvious
>things the party found earlier, and then entirely forget about later on
>not avoiding or fleeing combats that are clearly stacked against the party or risky on sight

>unfair
>completely undetectable traps/monsters
>bam! gotcha! insta-kill anything without proper warning, or avoidability
>blatant antagonism from the DM
>agency-robbing DM BS, including quantum-ogre encounters
>save or die effects that can't be negated by the right spells or items

Before some people get after me, I will mention I favor making traps generally as obvious as they are dangerous, usually. And unless it makes zero contextual sense, letting players' hirelings and henchmen to get redshirted.

>>51993653
ACKS has a pretty good class creation system in it's Player's Companion expansion(and adds some more stuff in it's Axioms quarterly webzine)

also in regards to Maximum Level Limits, it only works at all in Race As Class systems, and only then if both the max level for everyone is relatively low(like ACKS max level period is 14), and if you keep the maximums reasonable(an Elf maxing out at 11 in a 14 level system is reasonable, a Halfling maxing out at 8 is terrible in the same system)

>>51993687
>It's weird and mostly exists to explain why demihumans, with their longevity, don't have hoards of high-level demihuman NPCs.
>Slower leveling for demihumans works better for balancing (and usually happens in tandem with lower level limits).
honestly I've always found that to be one of the absolute dumbest ideas Gygax ever had

So I have this friend who's working on his own system, And I dont know/ think it's OSR, but from what I see you guys doing it's along the lines of stuff he doesn't shut up about

Would you guys mind looking at his custom format?
(It's pretty Rough but he's been working on it for a while)

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>>51994175
>honestly I've always found that to be one of the absolute dumbest ideas Gygax ever had
Say what you will, but the issues with abhuman hard level limits are mostly a moot point. Past name level, human characters hit a soft limit in progression anyway, with EXP requirements getting more and more difficult to attain, having to fight much and much tougher creatures (which means heightened chance of dying), and needing gargantuan treasure hoards to advance. This is especially true, if DMs are lessening the EXP gain from creatures of levels lower than the players, like they're supposed to. (Like, being an 8th level fighter, killing 7th level/HD creatures only nets 7/8ths normal EXP).

>>51994231
>And I dont know/ think it's OSR,
OSR is a matter of how easily content is adapted.
>Would you guys mind looking at his custom format?
Worst case scenario posting it without asking: we'd don't pay attention to it.
Best case scenario asking without posting it: we can't pay attention to it.
Rather than ask, you should just post it.

>>51994259
>abhuman
ur thibking of "subhuman"
See >>51992645

>>51994282
thing is I don't have it.
I'd have to call him up and ask him to share it to you guys, But I don't want to waste his time if it won't help him

Main problem being I think he is writing it around AD&D 2e and it is (as stated before) Edge OSR.

I also don't want to have anyone ere be bothered by his unceasing speech about his custom game ( you guys seem all for it here though)

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>>51994301
Underrated post.

>>51994317
>(as stated before) Edge OSR.
Some people dislike 2e thematically.
Nobody dislikes it mechanically (Player's Option line notwithstanding).
>his unceasing speech about his custom game
>( you guys seem all for it here though)
OSR General is /all about/ unceasing speech on homebrew.

>>51994354
cool I'm calling him now

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>>51994301
Funny joke, but naw. It just sounds more interesting to me than "demi-human", exemplifying the weirdness of elves and other humanoids in the game. Probably telling of some of the authors I like reading on occasion.

>>51970812
Written in a different time, when they were fighting to just be heard.
Could probably use an update.

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>>51992962
>You cast the spell Find Familiar

Every time, it makes me think of Amelia Bedelia. "Geeze, I guess this cat /does/ seem familiar. I'm sure I've seen it before."

>>51970427
Sometimes, I get the impression that people like to dislike writers and designers just because they happen to have actual personalities.
Admittedly, I'll put up with a lot of douchebaggery from somebody if I enjoy their writing.

>>51969598
Jeff's Game Blog.
Jeff Rients was the best, back in the day when he was posting regularly.
Newer posts are much slower, and nothing too special, but it's well worth taking some time to look over the archive.

>>51989414
The quirks of LotFP are pretty well-known at this point; everyone knows what they're getting into, and knows that it's way easier to ignore the half-dozen words that they don't like then it is to whine and bitch endlessly about them online while not bothering to write anything better.

>>51991743
http://regalgoblins.com/spells.php

I use this for quick spell look up,
Books take too long for spells I think.

>>51986303
>>51986538
Ok I've been reading a bit and this is not what I meant.
I meant a writeup about the world implicit by the rulebooks alone, based on distribution of monsters per terrain, treasure, etc etc.
Did nobody ever write about the super-magical world implied by the door rules? Seriously?

>>51987045
>>51988852
All this sounds amazing but leafing thru the Gazetteers... Well idk, I was expecting something else. I have the impression that Mystara is really that tolkien-ish land filled with generic quests and politicking that I associate with AD&D 2e and early 3.5e.

At least Karameikos adds 15+ minutes to character generation choosing background stuff that's (A) boring, imho (B) totally not what I expect reading B/X.

I sort of liked the super simple and flavorful skills, tho, seconding this >>51987992
They sound the perfect balance of crunch/fluff/bookkeeping. But again, a bit on the 2e+ spirit.

>>51994548
Welcome to 4chan, by the way.

How are you supposed to give magic users interesting spells that don't make other party members obsolete?

And no, don't use the old "they use up spells to bypass the challenge quickly, but at a cost as opposed to the other character who can do it unlimited times a day'. I don't like that answer.

>>51995080
Simply have the spells work as well as if it were a party member doing it, but the spell caster has the versatility to do what every class can do (in a limited way, such as Mana or spellcasts per day)

Then sprinkle in some things that are very nich and others cant do, these make up high end magics

>>51995259
example spell "Hold portal"
Anyone can hold a door shut, but wizards are weak As fuk, so they use a spell for it (plus you can run away while it holds.

But you cant "Hold" every door, or you'll be useless in battle. (having expended your mana/casts per day)

>>51995259
>>51995279
Also, I believe Spells could be cast at higher levels (using more mana/spell slots) to beef them up.

So think about how beefy the spell is at 5th or even just 2nd level casting, and if it seems like you may need nerfing / buffing

>>51995080
>And no, don't use the old "they use up spells to bypass the challenge quickly, but at a cost as opposed to the other character who can do it unlimited times a day'. I don't like that answer.
But that's what the answer actually is. High-level wizards tend to get out of hand in any edition, but in something like B/X, they're actually very limited at lower levels. The number of spells you know at a given level is exactly equal to the number of spells per day you can cast from that level. That's it. And by the rules, it's up to the DM whether he lets the player pick his character's spells or assigns them. If it's the latter, that could significantly reduce the character's power. Sleep is a really fucking powerful spell at low levels, but it's not the norm. Detect Magic, Light, Ventriloquism, and Read Languages are also 1st level spells. And even if the player gets to pick his own spells, there's only a dozen of them at each level, so he doesn't have nearly the range of possibilities that a character in, say, 3.5 has.

A 5th level magic-user has only 5 spells to his name. Maybe one of those is Fireball--which is nice, but it's just one spell--but maybe it's Infravision or Water Breathing instead (also 3rd level spells). But regardless, there are only a handful of times he can cast a spell until he's reduced to just being a frail, unarmored guy wielding a dagger.

And that's 5th level magic-user. As you go lower in level, the magic-user becomes more and more pathetic, until you get to 1st level, where maybe he casts Floating Disc and then is done for the day. And with ability bonuses being relatively uncommon, he's going to be a lot squishier than a wizard in 3.5, who can pump up his constitution to make himself more durable. Now, once you get up to 9th level or so in B/X (when he has 12 spells, half of them of 3rd level or higher, not to mention enough hit points to not go down to random shanking), a magic-user starts looking a lot more robust...

>>51995374
>Now, once you get up to 9th level or so in B/X (when he has 12 spells, half of them of 3rd level or higher, not to mention enough hit points to not go down to random shanking), a magic-user starts looking a lot more robust...
...but that's your reward for surviving through the lower levels, despite the deck being stacked against you. And B/X is a lot deadlier than modern D&D, so getting to high level with any character is a grueling achievement, and you aren't necessarily ever going to be playing a high-level campaign. Still, I wouldn't mind magic-users being a bit better balanced, with more options at beginning levels, and slower accumulation of power at higher levels.

>>51993766
Fair failure in games (also vidja) means that, in short, it's your fault and you know it. You know why you died, you know it's your fault, and maybe you can even intuit what to do to avoid it next time.

Rock falls everybody dies is not fair, no matter how you disguise it (green slimes fall, you turn to slime in d4 rounds! - see upthread).

>tfw want to go to bed but also want to wait until new thread