So I've just realized, after several years of playing Pathfinder,

>>51779034

If you want something different, go play the failed abortion that is 4e

Runequest
GURPS
Burning Wheel
Fate
Reign
FUDGE
Riddle of Steel
D6 Fantasy

Pretty much anything that isn't D&D.

>>51779096
>GURPS
I actually briefly looked into this, but there's so much shit that I don't really know where to start. I looked at the free Lite thing and it just seemed like more of the same, but I feel like I'm missing something.

Thanks for the other suggestions though, I'll check them out.

>>51779034
Legend of the Five Rings/7th Sea 1e's Roll and Keep system has lots of options for fighter-types. In both games you voluntarily make an attack roll more difficult to get increased effects from the attack. They scale defenses and damage in such a way that you are encouraged to do so as an unaugmented attacks is fairly weak. You can call raises for things as mundane as extra damage to disarming or tripping all without retarded feat taxes and the like.

>>51779135
That's not surprising. The presentation of 4th edition leaves a lot to be desired. GURPS is very good as a system, just opaque and a little impenetrable to newbies without guidance. If you want a solid, flexible generic system though I would definitely recommend giving it a solid try and visiting the sjgames.com forums for newbie guidance and questions.

That said, that's not what you're asking about in this thread and play whatever floats your boat, I say.

The other games are very good at what they do individually too; some are on the crunchier/sim sides, others fall to the lighter or more narrative sides.

One very interesting one in my list is Reign, which is what I would call medium crunch with some sim, and some narrative conceits. Strange but interesting setting, great system with faction rules, esoteric martial arts styles, magic disciplines, etc. using the nifty One Roll Engine.
There is also "Reign: Enchiridion" which is the same core book but all the setting stuff/fluff stripped out.

If you do check out Reign, be sure to download all the free supplements released online. Everything from extra culture details, new martial arts, giant monster rules, more magic stuff, new races, etc.

Anyway, martial characters are very interesting to play in it because of how the core dice rolls work with speed and hit location, and the way martial disciplines interact with the dice mechanic.

Good luck with your search.

>>51779034
Get a better GM, or be a better play.
Lemme show you a few examples.

>GM: Okay, the giant ogre turns to you, club in hand and blotting out the sun with it's mass. You can see intent to kill in it's eyes, but being quicker, you have initiative, what do you do?
>Player: I'd like to dash forward and try and stay under it, between it's feet. I doubt this thing is co-ordinated enough to stomp me, from there.
>GM: okay, you dash towards the beast, as you do, its meaty left hand lumbers towards you, aiming to grasp you. Roll a dex saving throw.
*dice rolling*
>GM: using your small size and speed to your advantage, you duck under the monsters meaty hand and find yourself directly underneath the ogre, between it's teeth. Do you want to attack?
>Player: I'm going to attempt to pin the creature to the ground, driving my sword through it's foot.
>GM: Okay, give me a strength check
*dice rolling*
>GM: You plunge your sword into the monstrosities foot as hard as you can

etc, etc.
Get creative, pleb.

>>51779385
sounds like you'd rather just be playing dungeon world

>>51779444
desu famalam, what i play is a 65/25/10 split between 4th edition Shadowrun, 5th edition DnD and NWoD.

Never played dungeon world or any other rpg for that matter.

>>51779385
Get a load of this guy, he thinks playing Mother-May-I with a permissive GM makes up for being mechanically boring or that there is anything stopping a caster from doing that as well to get even more mileage out of he cadre of spells.

>>51779385
If you have to ignore most of the system's rules to make a major part of its gameplay interesting, then it's not a very good system.

>>51779477
Get a load of this guy, he think his character's actions are hard limited to what's on his character sheet.

>>51779487
Tbh, i'm in 100% agreeance that DnD, Pathfinder, etc are all shit systems, they have so many flaws that make them almost unbearable to play, I only play dnd5e because sometimes my friends are retards and cant be bothered learning a more complex system.
However, it's your own responsibility to have fun, so if you cant have fun with just
*roll to hit*
*roll to hit*
*roll to hit*
Then you need to do something else, such as attacking to knock down, maneuvering an enemy into a wall, moving to an ally to shield them, etc.

File: This is you.jpg (41KB, 460x345px) Image search: [Google]

41KB, 460x345px

>>51779385
>>I am less able to interact with the ruleset than the other characters
>lol just refluff it

>>51779572
I dont understand you, are you mad at me because I dont feel autistically compelled to limit my characters to taking actions that have official rules written in a book?
In systems like DnD, PF, etc, yeah, a fighter has access to lower number of 'actions' than a wizard. You could argue this is a system fault and i'd agree with you.
However, if you are unable to have fun because of this, your a shit player.

>>51779053

Fuck yourself. 4e was unrefined but a truly great game for tactical combat once they figured out what they were doing and unfucked the math.

>arguing with system trolls

It's your own fault, whatever results.

For high quality martial combat, two systems get mentioned a lot- Song of Swords for more realistic, grounded stuff, and Legends of the Wulin for more over the top Wuxia/anime high action combat.

I'm a lot more familiar with the latter, and despite some issues like an awfully edited core book, LotW is fucking fantastic and has the best combat of any RPG I've ever played.

>>51779681
It's kind of hard to avoid when Pathfinder/3.5 and martials comes up in a topic.

>>51779761
It's easy. You can easily avoid those trolls by not pretending what they say is as important as they obviously think it is. It's actually really easy when you take a step back and stop listening to them and take a broader look.

>>51779034

If you're end up stuck playing Pathfinder like so many poor sods out there, you can at least make martial combat more interesting with the Path of War. The Tome of Battle/Path of War is one of the big redeeming features of 3.PF.

>>51779794
>Just plug your ears and screech and the problems will go away!

Yeah, okay.

>>51780017
Troll, you try so hard.
The problems you complain about are not the entirety of the system. No one's ignoring the flaws, they're ignoring YOU.

Which I will proceed to do.
Screech all you want now.

>>51780110
>I'm not ignoring the flaws, I'm just ignoring anyone who brings them up!
>Because they're TROOOOOOLLLLLS

Yeah, okay.

File: advancedfaggotry.jpg (10KB, 217x208px) Image search: [Google]

10KB, 217x208px

>>51780156
>Yeah, okay.
>Yeah, okay.
yeah, okay.

>>51780476
I'm agreeing with you anon. Isn't that what you want? Everyone to agree with you?

>>51780505

He's already got another crybaby thread up on the boards, one where he insists he's totes not going to get involved in edition wars ever again, and is calling everyone else 'trolls'. So now here we have him being a passive-aggressive shitposter with an unwarranted sense of smugness.

>>51779660

When you play a system where everyone can do shit outside of combat except for you, and are at least as effective in combat as you, you tend to get a bit bitter at the system.

>>51779520
>Get a load of this guy, he think his character's actions are hard limited to what's on his character sheet.
The stuff on my character sheet is shit that I know, with 100% certainty, is going to work exactly as written every single time I use it, barring specific circumstances that most likely won't appear during normal play.

Mother-May-I is shit because how effective I am and whether or not I can even do the thing is dependent on how lenient the GM is and how much they subscribe to rule of cool. I don't want to waste my turn jumping over a bandit to hit the dude behind him just to end up making a fool of myself because the GM decided "nonono, that's too anime, you auto-fail and take 1 point of fall damage."

Then you have mages that can do the same but it's actually hard-capped in the rules.

>>51780786
Like, it's not a fix for an absence of rules, but really any DM should be doing things that the players enjoy, including letting them shine through the descriptions of their actions, balancing any risk vs reward stuff as they see fit.

Any DM who wouldn't let you do the "anime move" and declares you autofail isn't fit to be a DM in the first place. I think anime shit is stupid, especially if I'm running in Skyrim-Land, but if my players define this as fun I'll give it to them because the game requires the DM to be more than a referee of hardcoded rules, especially in editions outside 3rd and 4th.

>>51780873
I don't want my level of enjoyment to be dependent on how much of a faggot the GM is. At least with the rules, if the GM pulls some stupid shit then I can go "but it says right here that..." and get him to STFU when I use my character's abilities as intended and maybe even make him look like a chode if he decides to use GM fiat to make it not work anyways.

"Mother-May-I" is basically like rolling the dice before you actually roll the dice.

>>51780873

The problem is that these systems often don't inform or incentivize the GM to actually do that, meaning that someone might say 'No' thinking they're just following the rules.

Also, worth remembering that 4e actually did have a pretty solid set of rules for improvising actions and letting them be useful and beneficial.

>>51780939
>>51780786
ahk, the issue is that you've never had a good GM.
You could have just said that, it would have saved a lot of time. Must suck always getting shitty GMs
: ^)

>>51780967

None of this defends the system. It's like comparing flaws in different medical treatments and you're lolling it up with "GET A GUD LE DOCTOR XDDDD" shitposts.

>>51780954
>4e actually did have a pretty solid set of rules for improvising actions and letting them be useful and beneficial.

This isn't wholly true, since the power creep of the system and those rules remaining unchanged from their initial printing left them as less useful options than most at-will powers due to the class's at-will powers having dedicated synergy.

You really needed to go out of your way to make improvised actions worthwhile.

But, at least they tried.

>>51780967
A good system helps as well, are you actually saying it's 0% on the system that martials are boring in D&D 3.PF/whatever other similar systems?

>>51779034
Any other system

Your problem is a problem that only exists in Pathfinder, it doesn't even really exist in 3.5 thanks to the ToB classes

>>51780986
>>51781021
read my previous comments plz.
>>51779520

I think DnD/PF set themselves up for failure with obvious caster supremacy, it's one of the many reasons I dont like them.
HOWEVER.
If you are a good player and as long as you dont have a shit GM, you can still have plenty of fun.
That's my argument. In no way am I defending the shitty systems.

>>51779034
5e is a little bit better about this if you're too lazy to learn a new, non d20, system

>>51781070

Ehh. 5e martials are more useful and valuable out of the box, but they aren't any less boring to actually play.

In my eyes, Tome of Battle/Path of War martials manage to be a lot more interesting and still contribute (assuming you're sticking to tier 3/4 classes) in 3.PF.

Then again, a 5e ToB would be glorious.

>>51781027
>it doesn't even really exist in 3.5 thanks to the ToB classes
So you're just going to pretend all the classes that decidedly DO have this problem, don't exist? 3.5 and 5e both have this problem, the only D&D version that doesn't is 4e though it has other problems. Numerous similar games have also tried to solve it (not just caster supremacy in balance, which is possible to work around, but that casters are more interesting and fun to play), I haven't played enough to comment but Fantasy Craft and Iron Kingdoms for example seem to have interesting non-mages.

>>51781054
This isn't Reddit, son. We can't see which comments were yours. Hell, we can't even see if you're the dude that the previous guy was replying to.

On topic: just because a GM CAN patch the flaws in a system, doesn't mean that the system's flaws don't matter. If you houserule extensively enough (good fucking luck), you can probably make FATAL playable, but that doesn't mean it's not a horrific mess or that you shouldn't just play a different, better system instead.

>>51781145
>On topic: just because a GM CAN patch the flaws in a system, doesn't mean that the system's flaws don't matter.

I think the issue for you is that, yes, they ultimately don't matter.
It's a lot harder to troll about how much people need to care about all your complaints when they really don't need to care. Or, to step away from absolutes, they don't need to care anywhere as much as you think they need to.

>>51781128
Well, yeah

Why even bother playing as a standard 3.5 martial when the ToB classes exist?

>>51781174

This horseshit argument is getting annoying. It keeps getting trotted out despite being trashed every time someone falls back on it as a way of avoiding or dismissing criticism.

>>51781183

Because there are people who will actively choose to play a Fighter even if you give them the option of playing a Warblade.

I've seen it happen. I have no fucking idea how or why, but it did.

>>51781223
It's only annoying because it forces you to realize that no one has to respect or value your opinion as much as you seem to. If you honestly think you can force people to obsess about your complaints as much as you do, of course the natural response is to just ignore you.

>>51781238
Then that's their choice, the problem the OP has does not apply to them.

Obviously assuming they don't start complaining later on about how little they can do compared to everyone else. In which case their suffering is their own fault

>>51781269
And yet you keep making threads about it and responding to posts with a holier-than-thou attitude. If you genuinely wanted to ignore people and actually didn't care, then you'd leave, plain and simple. But as it stands you're just shitposting. You're the troll here, not the people having legitimate complaints about the system.

>>51779034
>more engaging combat mechanics for fighters?
I'd have more interesting things they can do outside of combat.

>>51779034
Literally anything else besides 3.pf

>>51781269
>It's only annoying because it forces you to realize that no one has to respect or value your opinion as much as you seem to.
Which is why multiple people have called you out on your bullshit while your only response basically boils down to calling everyone who disagrees with you a "troll?"

The issue is that you think that a discussion is synonymous with endless praise, rather than two parties talking about why they believe a thing or not. Nobody benefits from ignoring a problem and pretending that everything is fine.

If people did that then the community wouldn't have shit like E6 or the tiers system to alleviate most of the system's failings.

Martial characters being allowed to do stuff outside of combat is badwrongfun, though

>>51781083
>Then again, a 5e ToB would be glorious.

B-b-but the Battlemaster anon!

5e

>>51781404
What are you on about now?
Why are you so desperate to protect your method of trolling? It's creepy as fuck.

Let's face it. What you call "legitimate complaints" is just you complaining and demanding people to have to respect and pay attention to your complaints, regardless of how much they disagree on their importance. Here, we even have people telling you that there's things that can be easily changed and aren't that big of a deal, and you are demanding that no, people are only allowed to act like it's a really big deal because you think it is.

Holier-than-thou? Better than whatever plane of arrogance you must reside on.

>>51781502
I'm sorry, but you insisting people to take all your trolling seriously is enough to make them take you less seriously.
That's the bottom line, and I'm not really all that sorry that it deflates all of your trolling down to just silly complaints that people are free to ignore.

Or, do you honestly believe you can command and demand attention?

Fantasy Craft.

Every character has access to basic actions in battle like screaming at an enemy to stress them out, or beating on their defenses to tire them out, or going on the defensive. Even the things you COULD do in 3/PF are refined; trip and disarm are quick checks and grapple is very streamlined and simple.

That's just the things everyone can do from the start, you can also buy advanced tricks to really change up combat. You can slap arrows out of the air before they hit you, grab that javelin coming your way and throw it back, swing harder to punish some slippery bastard, rely on your years of training to just know where to jab your spear that one time when you need it most.

Feats for weapons aren't some boring +1/+2/+3. Taking feats with a weapon opens up whole new playstyles. Axe users can chop equipment to pieces and sunder minions in twain with a single blow. Knives become a flurry as every single knife on the user seems to flick from its sheath to the enemy's kidney and back without being handled; that's just how quick it is. Even the poorest shield becomes a mighty bulwark between the enemy and the user, whether the user is bull rushing at full tilt or protecting those standing with him.

>>51781505
So are d20 systems, Blue players, Tau, alignments, 5e, 4e, Quests, OOTS, Critical Role, Old Memes, New Memes, Setting discussion with no system attached, the term BBEG, 40k fanfics, Harry Potter, JoJo, Generals, Filename Threads, Anime, 2HUs, Monstergirls and other fetishes I don't like, fetishes I do like, and any dice that aren't GameScience.

>>51781521
>He still replies

Every word you type only further proves my point. You have zero arguments to defend your system, other to pretend that what people say isn't valid because they're trolls for disagreeing with you. You say to ignore them but just can't help but do the opposite. If we were legitimate trolls in the first place, then you're only feeding the machine. If you were to actually refute any points that're made, then you'd have to acknowledge that, holy shit, we might have a point and know what we're talking about.

You're fighting a battle that only exists in your head, and somehow you're still losing. 3.5 has glaring flaws. Admit it.

>>51781509
Monk archetypes with battlemaster dice would be cool though, and we still need a full on Warlord class(or a Barbarian/Pally equivalent)

>>51781633

Eurgh. We'll never get a Warlord class because Mearls is an idiot who doesn't understand his own system.

He actually repeated the 'Shouting hands back on' bullshit when HP is, you know, a fucking abstraction. Restoring morale and reinvigorating fighting spirit is a perfect fucking justification for martial healing but martials aren't allowed to have nice things, fuck.

>>51781566
>>51781521
I'm not insisting anything of anyone ITT, if anything, you're the one insisting that everyone ITT agree with you, lest they be labeled as trolls when all they're doing is stating flaws that they had with the system.

We're arguing about mechanical flaws that have already been addressed and acknowledged by the community, who already made house rules to fix the bulk of its flaws while allowing people to play a class without accidentally breaking the game for everyone involved.

Or are you going to claim that you know better than people who have been playing 3.PF for over a decade and understand how the system works?

>>51781624
3.5 has flaws. There are trap options. There are broken abilities. Nobody is discounting that.

What's really wrong with the game is that it has a Meta. It requires balancing and developing tiers of play and restrictions before going into the game.

But you saying 3.5 as a whole is Shit? That's like saying MTG Legacy with No Banlist makes MTG a terrible game.

Now, as to whether the presence of the meta of the game is a good thing? That's where it becomes subjective.

>>51781687
You're being called trolls because that's what you are. Pretending otherwise is a joke at this point.
I am not defending a system here. I am highlighting what you do, your methods, your motivations, and your insistences. At no point, none, does anyone have to take you or your complaints seriously.
None. As much as it must infuriate you, as much as you must resent that objective fact, the harsh truth is that no matter how much you complain and pretend you are doing so for the sake of discussion, your trolling is obvious and easily ignored.

Now, tell me otherwise. Insist I, or anyone, needs to care how much you complain. Go on. Force me to take you seriously.

>>51781752

It's amazing how much you care about telling people nobody cares.

>>51781791
Allow me to clarify.

Care about what you're complaining about, not that you're complaining in general.

File: your_argument.png (3KB, 326x320px) Image search: [Google]

3KB, 326x320px

>>51781752
>You're being called trolls because that's what you are.
pic related
>I am not defending a system here. I am highlighting what you do, your methods, your motivations, and your insistences.
...by calling me and everyone else who disagrees with you a troll?
>At no point, none, does anyone have to take you or your complaints seriously.
Yet at the end of the day, you keep posting so you have to have taken me seriously enough to, y'know, not just hide my post and go on about your business (assuming you had any).
>As much as it must infuriate you, as much as you must resent that objective fact
>objective
I don't think you know what that word means.
>the harsh truth is that no matter how much you complain and pretend you are doing so for the sake of discussion, your trolling is obvious and easily ignored.
Which is, again, why you keep posting responses? Getting mixed signals here chief.
>Force me to take you seriously.
The sad thing is you think anyone ITT respects you.

>>51781816
If you didn't care, you wouldn't feel the need to clarify. But you do, so you just keep replying.

The pattern of behaviour we're seeing is kinda amazing. It's almost like some sort of inverse trolling. The poster is so paranoid and self-righteous about fighting a particular kind of trolling, they end up spamming and replying in ways almost identical to actual trolls.

>>51781861
Allow me to clarify further.
Your individual compaints, as in, the subject of your complaint, can be easily dismissed as unimportant.
Your insistence on complaining, however, is annoying.

In other words, you can't force people to agree with you on how important a particular grievance is, but you can make people care that you are trolling non-stop even when people are pointing that out and telling you to quit it.

Same page now?

File: 1477399251680.jpg (51KB, 540x429px) Image search: [Google]

51KB, 540x429px

>>51781605
You forgot Elves, GURPS, furry races, doing anything different with any given race, hating Terry Pratchett, and anything that can be construed as Magical Realm.

And i like all theae things, i guess I'm so far into badwrongfun that /tg/ can't save me.

File: 1454607119569.jpg (5KB, 234x230px) Image search: [Google]

5KB, 234x230px

>>51781816
>>51781906
>I don't care
>Allow me to clarify
If you had a bow and ended every sentence with "b-b-baka!" then you'd be a shoo-in for a tsundere my friend.

>>51781907
Wait, you hate Terry Pratchett? You got issues man. Is there a Sociopath watch list? Maybe submit your name just to be safe, and get help.

>>51781906
way to ignore the trolls buttlord lets see how much you don't care ololololol

>>51781935
>>51781959
If you have a mental block, you should just say that to begin with. It's a waste of clarifying what someone cares about if you're just going to ignore the clarification.

>>51781948
Well, hate's a strong word. While I enjoy parts of his work (especially anything with Vimes) I think a majority of his writings range from terrible to meh. The way /tg/ sucks his cock at any opportunity baffles me. It's like seeing a bizzarro /lit/ who praises Dean Koontz.

>>51781973
I'm just saying, if you really didn't care then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I'll be straight with you, I don't like you, I don't respect you, I think you're either a troll or a retard, and your points are juvenile and rife with non-answers as well as ad-homs and strawmen.

Yet even saying that there's nothing more to be gained from this discussion, and that your clarifications are moot, you'll still reply to this post anyways because that's the sort of basic bitch that you are, no matter how much you claim you don't care.

So at this point, either you reply and prove me right or you stop replying and the thread doesn't get derailed further. So what's it gonna be?

>>51779385
Why the fuck wouldn't you just use another system if you're going to eyeball shit.

Hell, there're rules for squeezing beneath a giant and rules to try and pin it to the ground.

>>51782036
I already clarified that I DO care about you complaining in general. What I've explained, twice already, is that what can't be done is to make people accept that a complaint about a system is important in regards to its effect on the system, ie. care about what you're complaining about, rather than you complaining in general.

But, I do want to walk away from this argument. I simply wished to do so without you going away with a false notion of what was said. So, i extend my own offer, and don't bother replying, to prevent this thread from being derailed any further.

>>51782093
Basic bitch it is.

File: 1487136655052-tg.jpg (76KB, 789x329px) Image search: [Google]

76KB, 789x329px

>>51782002
Nah, I can see what you mean. Not every book was great, between his development and decline as a writer, but every one of his books are worth reading once for the bits of humor and wisdom. Vimes was definitely his best body of work, though I put Moist's books ahead of a few of Vimes' books.

still, hating Pratchett is a bankable offense.

>>51779678
4e PHB2 is still my favourite DnD book

>>51782109
Take that as your victory if you need to, you've achieved nothing of actual value.

>>51779135
The main thing to note about GURPS combat is that each turn takes 1 second rather than six, which means combat is more about resource management than it is in D&D.

>>51782123
>Still replied
Oh man, you sure are proving how much you don't care right now.

>>51782155
Lay off man, now you're looking as bad as him

He's obviously DESPERATE for the last word, just let him have it, it won't magically make him right

>>51779385
Your example is not just stupid because of how low stat bonuses are or because you want someone to roll 2 stat checks to do a single fucking thing, tanking their chances of actually doing it even if they've got very high stats, it's fucking stupid because the game is specifically set up to NOT allow you to do this. Do you think you take AoOs for attempting combat maneuvers for no reason?

>>51782061
Here's the thing though, are you really going to stop game and look up this one particular rule that will most likely never crop during game ever again from that point forward?

My GM has a problem with doing this too often during game. He's not a bad GM mind but it gets grating when we're in the middle of something like combat and the GM stops combat, pulls out the book, and looks up a specific ruling that may or may not exist rather than just eyeballing it and saying "eh, sure, why the hell not? Rolling with [modifier/(dis)advantage] for your action."

>>51782120

So much great content, so many good ideas... And then Essentials crippled the line and sent it to an early grave. Fucking tragic.

>>51782166
Why should I when I've already established that I neither like nor respect him? Besides, after this thread 404's, nobody is going to give a shit about what was said ITT.

>>51782177
I will never understand why they introduced the knight, and the nerf that completely destroyed any chance the knight class had of being usable, in the same book

Also the entire Bladesinger class, even with the vampire, the assassin, the boring-ass destined scion ED, and all the brainless essentials martials, I still consider Bladesinger to be the worst thing to come out of 4e

>>51782117
Eh, opinions and all that.

Although, he is one of the few authors who made me cry like a baby. When Vimes was shouting Where is my Cow in Thud!, I just lost it.

>>51781633
>>51781648

You got your Warlord class, it's called the Purple Dragon Knight.

That's what Mearls thinks a 5e Warlord should be.

>>51782242
No I didn't, I got shit on a plate after already being served shit on a plate(Battlemaster).

>>51782166
No, sorry, when a thread is about games with more interesting combat than basic 3.5 martial combat and you come into the thread to REEEEEEEEE about people not liking 3.5 and spam argumentum ad populum and relativist bullshit, you are automatically worse than any poster in that thread.

>>51782269
Nah, Battlemaster is ok, it's just to Warlord what Eldritch Knight is to a wizard. If you'd gotten a full Warlord class alongside it, it would be a great option when you want to be supporting fighter, instead of fighting supporter.

>>51782342
Battlemaster is 'okay' in the framework of 5E, or when compared to abortions like the 3.5 Fighter(and only sometimes), but it's complete shit compared to the classes it's based off of.

>>51782383
Well, outside of the bullshit classes, the powerlevel of 5e is much lower overall than in 4e, so I don';t really see that as a problem

As long as no one's playing a druid, cleric, wizard or bard

>>51782400
>the powerlevel of 5e is much lower overall than in 4e
More like lower than every edition of D&D with no options to scale it up aside from magic item spam. It's one of the reasons I really dislike it.

>>51782414
That's fair, I like having a low-power option alongside the high-power options so it doesn't bother me

>>51782436
I don't mind playing lower-power systems or playing in a lower-power campaign in a system that can support more than one level of power.

I do mind marketing lying to my face with "hey guys we TOTALLY have something for EVERYONE this time we promise!"

>>51782490
5e is full of lies.

It lies about HP being abstract, lies about the relative power of classes, lies about magic items being optional, lies about how classes should be built.

It's sort of the same problem as 3.5 just on a much lesser scale. Fortunately the lies are pretty easy to see through, so they don't cause problems beyond the initial repulsion caused by realising the developers are lying to you

>>51779678

>a truly great game for tactical combat
Too bad it was supposed to be a fucking RPG

>>51779034
It took you several years? You must be some stupid.

>>51779053
Are you the same moron who got BTFO in the 4E thread a few day ago?

>Duur, u can't walk on water worth anything huur duur

>4+ examples later

>Huur im a dumb nog, better run away now!

>>51782654
You can roleplay in 4E (unless you are shitty players/shitty DM)

Your shitty opinion has been discarded

>>51782546
??? I'm confused about these 'lies'

Like what are your expectations and what do they set up that makes that feel so blatantly false to you?

>>51783314
>>51783320
this

>>51782654
If you need the roleplaying aspect spelled out for you in a rulebook, you're not doing it right bucko.

>>51779053
That escalated quickly.
>Not being able to fix minor math issues in MM1/2
>Not a complete shit DM and/or Player

>>51783314
That wasn't quite what happened

It was more like

>Look at all these examples of things that are way too hard to do in 4e compared to other systems!

>Every example given is proven unequivocally false

>The examples weren't important, the point is I'm right despite having absolutely 0 evidence to back me up and you're all wrong despite heaping boatloads of evidence behind your claims on to me

>>51784666
*rips out tits and starts flailing them* BUT THERES NO ROOLLLLLEPLAYING IN IT!!!!

>>51784657
Word. 3e dumbed everything down by having rules for everything.

File: image.png (108KB, 303x395px) Image search: [Google]

108KB, 303x395px

>3.5 Fighter has to rely on narrative fluffing to make Full Attacks every turn be interesting
>"wow this is so boring why can't I get actual interesting options"

>4e Fighter gets a shitload of different attacks but they're all more narratively limited
>"wow how the fuck am i supposed to roleplay with this"

Is this what the argument boils down to?

>>51785154
3e's failing was having "get out of roleplaying free" abilities and spells

>>51779034
So, Path of War from DSP 3rd party for PF? Most paizo martials also have an archetype that lets them initiate with the second book.

>>51779135
GURPS Dungeon Fantasy is GURPS D&D.

Otherwise you take basic set and then as GM pick and choose what mechanics to include from various other books and web-articles grouped by category.

Just remember that ultra tech is crap.

>>51785105
Made me reply

>>51785105
So it was your dumb ass in that thread, top kek! You got roasted so badly, the entire thread was against you.

>>51779472
As an avid PbTA GM, you described a pretty damn good dungeon world combat.

>>51787639
No, I was the one in the thread posting funin.space links to the powers proving that guy wrong

Because he was so fucking wrong

>>51787663
I think you misread the comment dude, I think the person you replied to was one of the "roasters", nit the moron of the thread

>>51779034
Song of Swords is entirely built around good combat and is in kickstarter (with beta rules available free) right this instant.

>>51787766
What does it play like?

>>51787873
Like a HEMA match. The combat system is designed around committing or reserving dice to attack hard without overextending yourself. You pick your maneuvers and target locations, roll your dice, and check a wound table (no HP). Much faster than D&D-style combat, although since it's more different than many systems, it takes commensurately more time to get used to.

>>51782654
>I need rules to roleplay

Too bad you were supposed to be a normal child

>>51779096
>>51779034
Seconding Riddle of Steel. The whole game's about melee combat, and it does it well.

D&D isn't even that bad, if you're playing one of the simpler editions (e.g. OD&D, 5e, basically anything that isn't 3.pf) and the DM puts enough detail into the encounters that you can improvise based on the environment, but I still wouldn't recommend it if you want good melee combat.

>>51782654
Nah, 4e was always meant to be about tactical combat. It was just Hasbro trying to make the old D&D miniatures game more marketable.

>>51789060
>trying to make the thing they dropped years before releasing 4e more marketable
Yeah okay mate

>>51789060

And it was a good RPG anyway. Man, what a great game 4e was. I do miss it.

>>51779034
The problem isn't that fighter can't do anything else, but everything else is so high in risk and low reward. PF fighters have to take a boat load of feats to make a combat maneuver viable, and then it's onlt one of many options and the build is locked into that style. These builds are about how to build the, not play them.

>>51789116
You know, it's not like they took your books away.

I mean I disagree with you about it being fun, but if you enjoyed it there's no reason you can't continue to play it.

>>51791133
The end result is the same though. Fighters are one trick ponies.

The game is more fun if you ban t5, and either only allow t2-4, or only allow t1-3

>>51791149

The sad thing is that they killed it right when it was getting really good.

The 4e PHB is still nowhere near the clusterfuck 3/3.5 core was, but it showed that it was a very new system and they had a lot of teething troubles. But straightening out the math, getting the hang of class design, beginning to explore the design space... We were seeing classes with really innovative mechanics and power structures and the game really come into its own.

And then all of that was set aside for the complete waste of paper that was Essentials. And then the game was killed, because Essentials sold like trash because it was pure, rotting garbage.

>>51779034

Why my system called Roar! :^)

I will have PDF prepared soon, but combat is resolved by drawing a hand of cards Colt Express style, where the deck is built by the weapons you choose to take into battle.

My last play test had players bouncing across the board avoiding a giant Rat Ogre.

>>51791197
Most of the best parts of 4e made it into 5e, while discarding most of the worst parts.

>>51791264

Horseshit did they. A few of the sensible mechanical tweaks maybe, but they scrapped everything that made the edition distinct and interesting to make the blandest, dullest and safest edition of D&D ever.

It sold like fucking hotcakes, which shows they actually understood what their core demographic wanted, but for those of us who liked what 4e did it was in no way a good successor.

>>51779096

I like Fate, but if you want interesting combat it's not a good system.

>>51791197
Its a slow skirmish wargame with leveling. Not unlike Disgaea or final fantasy tactics played on tabletop.

Unfortunately, it's less fun than final fantasy tactics, and I'd rather just play FFT instead (despite it lacking multiplayer and custom campaigns). It just lacks the charm FFT has.

It has a few neat ideas, but the system just wasn't one I found fun to play.

cBuilder is the best character building app I've ever seen bar none though, and marking was an interesting concept for character specific reactions.

And I am also unconvinced it would play better as a tabletop than as a multiplayer videogame using the computer to expedite the mechanics.

File: 9c0ab9f4-f141-47c8-8e0c-80a85a70a45a_1.840a42fa25bdeabafc9a029e3c5ad95a.jpg (62KB, 450x450px) Image search: [Google]

62KB, 450x450px

>>51791280
>Horseshit did they.

Agree to disagree then, I found the few things I liked about 4e in 5e, and that seems to be the general consensus. And, though you might take it as a bit of a snub, the last place I saw the elements that made 4e distinct and interesting were in those D&D board games, which I honestly found to be more fun than 4e proper.

>>51791280
5e was definitely a game targeted at the players who preferred 1e, 2e and 3e over 4e.
All it really draws from 4e is some math inspiration.

>>51791350

Nope. 4e was an RPG which happened to have a good combat system with clear layouts and standard templating.

Did it have problems? Oh fuck yes. I just said the 4e core had a lot of issues, and that might be where the 'slow' came from, the early monster math ended up having fights drag out way, way too long.

It is no more or less an RPG than any other edition of D&D though, and the amount of character you could express through engaging in the combat system and the amount of flavourful, interesting and evocative powers you had available make it my favourite edition to this day.

I don't need rules for roleplaying. I can do that anyway. But rules for combat that let me have fun, express my character and make interesting, mechanically significant choices? Fuck yes.

>>51791403
We've already played the game, friend. You don't need to practice your sales pitch on us.

>>51791350
>And I am also unconvinced it would play better as a tabletop than as a multiplayer videogame using the computer to expedite the mechanics.

It should be mentioned that 4e was the only edition to not have a video game that used it's mechanics.

I don't count 5e yet since it's still relatively new.

>>51791379
>I found the few things I liked about 4e in 5e,

Such as?

>>51791403
Technically FFT and Disgaea are SRPGs.

Which is code for tactical skirmish game with leveling and a story, but everything outside combat is basically just freeform dialogue, and levelup.

And that's fine. I enjoy banner saga. I sort of enjoy Disgaea. I enjoy FFT. But 4e just fell flat in comparison, and I do think it would have worked better as a SRPG combined with NWN style DM client and map maker, with multi player functionality.

The detail outside combat was lacking, points of light was lacklustre, forgotten realms was reduced to hot garbage, and you couldn't do combat as war like in other editions (rig things with good planning so it's like shooting fish in a barrel). Plus, AEDU (most of the game) was everything I hate about other editions of D&D brought right to the forefront (individually tracked x uses in y time period abilities).

So yeah, I didn't really enjoy it.

>>51791474
Irrelevant tangent. 4e is still an 'SRPG' in tabletop form.

>>51791607
>forgotten realms was reduced to hot garbage
So nothing actually changed?

>>51791955
If you didn't like FR to begin with, everything you hated about it (high-level characters, Mary Sue novel characters) is still there. If you did like FR, 4e killed everything likable about it by skipping ahead 100 years tossing in tons of retcons, and blowing up half the continent.

If you played D&D as "the forgotten realms tabletop RPG" it couldn't do it adequately, so you abandoned it for 2e or 3.x or GURPS or whatever.

And therefore WOTC lost a bunch more customers because they killed off the product line that kept them around.

>>51791607
>>51792127

I guess that's a key difference. I tend to view systems in terms of pure mechanics, since I'll almost always create a custom setting.

4e presented me solid mechanics for the most complex and demanding part of the game, combat, and left it pretty light and loose the rest of the time. Could the system have benefited from more out of combat stuff? Sure, and that's one of the things they'd started on but never really got going when the line died.

Although for what it's worth I actually really liked points of light. As a framework for a campaign it struck me as perfect, a strong theme and a few key details to give context and a frame of reference, and then a whole lot of grey areas and blank spaces for the GM to fill in with fun stuff for the PCs to do.

>>51792184
I only play FR about 1/3 of the time I play d&d, but I know others who only played FR that dropped 4e because it's FAR was a joke and the system wasn't set up with the mechanics needed for the old FR setting material.

For me it was more the other things I mentioned. I have no problem playing multiple different games, so even if I couldn't use it for forgotten realms campaigns, if I liked 4e mechanically I would have used it for other stuff.

I'm not sure if I really need a tabletop SRPG (I have considered running an FFT campaign, but failed to do so due to lack of an adequate ruleset) and if I do go for a tabletop SRPG, 4e doesn't give me what I'd want from one.

File: 780e48ce3f35c157be90c6cd741329e5.png (100KB, 424x651px) Image search: [Google]

100KB, 424x651px

I'm gonna add onto what >>51781592 is talking about: the weapon stats are also less stratified.
Invest in the feats and a knife fighter can be about as effective as a swordsman--while a dagger does d6 damage, it also has the Bleed tag and piling extra damage dice onto it means you're going to have enemies bleeding like stuck pigs as the save against bleeding is tied to damage.

Hell, a simple wooden club does d8 damage, and the Basic feat for clubs lets you slide people around with each hit that lands. Tons of options, and each one has versatility.

>>51779034
Play a system that encourages "stunting", the act of describing fairly elaborate or clever manoeuvres in order to obtain a bonus or to do things which aren't formally a part of the rules.

>>51791350
>it's less fun than final fantasy tactics
Bull fucking shit, I can actually optimize in 4E without the game exploding around me. FFT breaks itself for me and I'm going to stop having fun with a game when I have to deliberately hold myself back for all of it.

>>51795979
>Vanilla FFT is really easy if you know what you're doing.
True enough. There are, however, several mods, overhauls and even spin-off games, if you want to up the difficulty.

>>51796068
I've finished FFT 1.3 and literally over half of the game is not fun. Chapter 1 has too few options available to you to be fun, while the ass end of Chapter 3 and all of Chapter 4 is total bullshit that forces party compositions on you without anything even resembling a smooth transition. Plus, the less said about Altima, the better.

The much improved class balance is welcome, though.

>>51782173
these are all system issues, im not defending the system at all. DnD and pathfinder are shit for many reasons.
I'm suggesting that a good player, with a good GM can have fun regardless of system.

I've had to clarify this multiple times, can people plz read a thread.

>>51796251
>the less said about Altima, the better

fuck you're giving me flashbacks

100% Invite? FUUUUUU~

>>51796360
It was like the game suddenly became FFT Kaizo. It was fucking awful and it dragging on for like three hours did not fucking help.

>>51796401
There's also jot5, and to some extent, also FFT rebirth.

>>51796801
Not quite the same. They're better than vanilla FFT, but they're still not to the level of the game not breaking if you optimize the fuck out of it like 1.3.

It's just that 1.3 shits the bed for the final chapter and isn't fun for the first one.

The real question is, how did it take OP "several years" to realize that 3.PF martial combat boils down to essentially two options?

File: 1899464_0.jpg (34KB, 540x309px) Image search: [Google]

34KB, 540x309px

>>51779034
I'm in the middle of developing a system that has a separate mechanic for melee, ranged, and casting. Melee honestly gets the most attention in it and relies on positioning and predicting the opponent's next move to avoid damage. If I ever get it done, I'll share it on here.

>>51796920
By not playing martials.

>>51796896
I had little patience for the fact that the encounters in 1.3 are designed to punish you for "overleveling".

Eventually they just had gear so good I couldn't keep up, and the game became a slog.

Wouldn't have been so bad in 1.3 had the mod that equips enemies based on the gear that can be bought in shops rather than by level.

>>51797138
Oh don't even get me started on that bullshit.
>Uniques like Marche join your party
>They're generated several levels above your party
>Enemy encounters are based off of the highest level character you have
>They singlehandedly push enemies into new tiers of equipment and skills, because fuck you
Why? Who thought this was a good idea?

>>51797175
The creators of 1.3 wanted to make enemies scale with the players so you couldn't make it easier by being a higher level than the enemy.

They had ideas, but limited hacking abilities, so they stuck with hacks created by other people at the time, and mechanics already in the game.

The game unfortunately looks at the max level character in the battle as "party level".

The 1.3 creators made the bonehead decision to leave gear on "random", which is supposed to choose a random category of gear, and equip the best thing it can by level restrictions. (Vanilla FFT has a bug that makes this sometimes choose crap gear, I don't know if 1.3 uses the fix for that or not).

But the end result is that enemies in 1.3 often have way better gear than you can buy, unless you manage to level at the same pace as the campaign story battles. The more you pass the level you "should be at" the more subpar your equipment compared to the enemy.

>>51797260
It's not the scaling that bothers me, it's trolling the player with unique characters. I did a damn good job of keeping my levels pretty low the last time I played, but oh look, Marche joined and shot the party up 7 fucking levels which pushed the final parts of Chapter 3 into having endgame gear, because fuck you.

>>51797260
Oh. And, additionally, the options for scaled enemies, range from "party level" to "party level +99".

You can't do party level -2 or party level -5. You're never going to want party level +99. That's fucking stupid.

As is how party level = max lvl.

>>51797279
I'm pretty sure you can avoid that by deciding to never use Marche.

But yes, 1.3 forces you to walk a tightrope of leveling at exactly the right piece, no faster and no slower, or else get fucked around because fuck you.

Frankly, I'd rather play vanilla than 1.3.

1.3 easytype was OK though.

>>51797014
I don't know when reddit started existing, but I just trivially found BBEG being used on /tg/ more than nine years ago and nobody even begins to give a fuck.
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/1044995/

Get bent, you reactionary turd.

>>51798265
also I just double-checked and I meant to use "overreacting" and reactionary is apparently a political thing

Sorry, English isn't my first language.

I would actually suggest 4e or Homebrewing.

>>51796920
I didn't think it could have been different.

File: Longsword of Emperor Maximillian I.jpg (63KB, 725x600px) Image search: [Google]

63KB, 725x600px

>>51779034
Song of Swords but that to my current knowledge is lacking a bit when it actually comes to magic rules.
The Riddle of Steel has both combat and magic though. GURPS is another good option.

>>51798278
Honestly reactionary works too.

>>51779034
Why does everyone play in white box fights?

Use the environment.

Hell, I one shotted a giant scorpion as an assassin / rogue with death attack and jumping off a ten or twelve foot high ruin of a fort wall.

>>51798278
No, reactionary works as well, as in you are "reacting" to something.

>>51785228
Well to be fair, you have the same room to be creative narratively in 4E as you do in 3.5

>>51791493
Not >>51791379 but I'm a big 4E fan so I liked being able to pull out what I could that made it in. At-Will attacks for spellcasters is a thing now, so they always have something useful to do in combat. They brought in healing surges (basically, although they changed it up a bit- hit die). Trying to remember what else (been a while since I DM'd it)

>>51801310
As has been mentioned countless times in other threads, "hurr environment" doesn't work because a) mages freely warp the environment around them depending on which spells they're using and b) anything beyond (full) attacking is heavily discouraged without taking on the right feats beforehand.

The time it takes you to take advantage of the environment is time that could've been spent full attacking.

>>51804158
I've often used it that way, myself.

The dictionary says I was incorrect for doing so.